Forum Post: Without it OccupyWallSt. will fail for sure: Patience: Watch this
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 10, 2011, 1:54 p.m. EST by Matthias
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Without it OccupyWallSt. will fail for sure: Patience: Watch this http://youtu.be/Af-7KRTb_TQ
we don't need patience, patience implies waiting. we need right action, and work. we need the real work, of a real revolution, not assorted con scam BS from rebels without a clue. Patience is not getting us anywhere and as an aside, there are 20 doomsday clocks ticking down, so sitting and waiting around for the world to end is not the best idea.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Article_5_Convention
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-quitting-unless-you-all-start-working-stay-the-/
Waiting on the Lord
i have bad news for you. Thats exactly how the evil con scammers get you to sit on hour hands and be useless.
And God might best be quoted as saying "God helps those who help themselves."
Christian fascist "lord" is a mythological con scam.
Cling to the pretty lie if you like, but its just one more thing to ensure that you do nothing and have zero impact on civilization until the moment at which they cull you from the sheeple herd.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Article_5_Convention
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-quitting-unless-you-all-start-working-stay-the-/
Paitience does not mean doing nothing
almost always does. I'm again interested in right action. I have no time to be patient. Either we get this revolution rolling or everyone dies. There is no time to be bored and no time to be patient there is only the workload of things that have to be done in order to have a paradigm shift and thus a revolution. you talking about "lord" proves the point. You wouldn't know what right action looks like if it bit you.
While i am busting my ass to save the humans, your sitting on your hands and twiddling your thumbs, and waiting for bjeeezus to come save us all. That doesn't cut it. We don't need patience, we need work.
THIS is what that work LOOKS LIKE. Now either get to the work or STFU. Nobody wants to hear religious cockamamy BS any more, i think pretty much 90 percent of the people here realize that religious nutjobs are what got us into this mess.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Article_5_Convention
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-quitting-unless-you-all-start-working-stay-the-/
Do you know what happened in communist East Germany and how the system was toppled within weaks?
yeah. did you notice that nothing changed, because they didn't bother to do the real work of a paradigm shift and thus got saddled with an oligarchic western style regime?
excuse me? what? it would take 4 months to have a global revolution my way.
I don't need to look at historic examples there aren't any which have the same variables or even close.
Do you have a point to make?
My point is that Jesus will win. He is constantly working against evil and corruption, worldwide just as you want to do it. However He has patience but He will succeed.
if "jesus" won, that would be a bad thing, since Christianity is an evil, fascist, genocidal, death and war cult.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Article_5_Convention
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-quitting-unless-you-all-start-working-stay-the-/
What do you know about Jesus. Compare his life to the life of WallSt and Washingtom people. Tell me what is evil about him. And if you don't know anything why are you so against him?
What do i know? I know EVERYTHING. I know what he actually did factually preach. You don't have the first clue. I know his actual name in history. I bet you couldn't summon that one up to save your soul. I know what that name was crossed with in order to obtain your mythical "Jesus" and I know even far more than that about the assorted cultures which existed at that time and how it works that Mary Magdelene is the one that actually made him powerful and famous. I have ALL the answers. You have Squat.
Lets just go for easy number one. Which pagan God was the original name blended with in order to create the name "Jesus" and what was the actual historic name?
if you can't answer, you can always STFU and run home to the congregation and make believe you know squat.
So how old are you? 2010 years. You seem to be around at that time. Otherwise I have no clue how you know everything?
failed. you don't know the answer.
i do because i took the time to study.
here. take some time and study.
List of Threads on OccupyWallStreet.org
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organizational-map-2/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/dangers-of-unmoderated-forums/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/purple-dialogue/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/enough-jabbing-at-wall-street-lets-go-for-the-knoc/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-the-occupy-movement-as-a-whole-become-a-m/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/corporate-oligarchy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-are-we-and-how-do-we-move-forward/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/things-wall-st-did-were-not-illegal/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/suggested-goals/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/oct-18-gao/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/naomi-klein-climate-change-fight-is-down-to-the-99/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/only-1-demand-includes-all-others-article-v-of-the/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-eco-villages/
I am sorry, I don't believe your version of the Gospel. I will stick to what has made its way into the world, which is the Bible.
My version of ? lol. Factual realities version is this. Your so called bible is a politically inspired propaganda edit copy of a Tanakh. Your so called "Jesus" is a spin on "DionYSIUS". The actual name of the actual historic person was Yeshua Ben Yeoseph. Reading quite apparently ONLY your propaganda garbage book, you are flatly ignorant, and we can now move on to the next obvious questions. What did Yeshua actually preach in his time here?
You can't answer that question, because the real focus points of his ministry got edited out of your "bible."
Thats not MY version, Its SCIENCE and HISTORY FACT.
You are ignorant, and you are so completely ignorant that the very entity you claim to worship you have no real knowledge of.
Two nutjobs debating with each other: one an anti-semite conspiracy theorist, the other a religitard. You have to love this forum!
First, You are the nut job, right off the top, you have no regard for truth or reality. Second, I'm quite sane. third, I'm not anti semite, and in fact have quite a high regard for and deep knowledge of Qaballah, fourth, you have no content, so you chime in with nothing but an ad hom all around? Back to first. You are a nut job. and a prick. And the worser problem than religious nuts.
An anti-semite who doesn't even realize he is one. How cute.
a troll, who can't even manage to tell the difference between being an anti semite, and having legit issues with a rogue fascist government.
I am not anti jewish. I am not racist. I am not anti people. I am rightly against a fascist rogue nation, which the entire world in the form of the UN security council agrees is a rogue nation, which has more UN security council violations than any other nation and almost more than all other nations combined, which has in fact attempted to create a network of spies for the express purpose of global world domination, including the usurpation of this countries military and secret societies for its own purposes. Any sane person should object to that and any sane person who does so is not an anti semite. You confusing the issue only proves that you are either a fucktard or a paid shill. Which is it?
READ IT, you ignorant beotch.
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2008/112608Lendman.shtml
http://www.judeofascism.com/2009/10/just-as-they-denied-genocide-of.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/marxist-leninist-list@lists.econ.utah.edu/msg02175.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/marxist-leninist-list@lists.econ.utah.edu/msg02175.html
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11721
there is a such thing as eating to much acid.
Would you look at that. Old richie is stalking me now.
i was talking to you, not about you.
I know. I never said you were talking about me. I only said you were stalking me. You've replied to a few posts of mine in a row. I assume you're looking at the right hand menu showing the recent posts and clicking when you see my name. It's not a bad thing. I encourage you to follow my postings. They are some of the more interesting ones on this forum.
lol. i guess it takes a larger level of humility to understand. you'll get there.
nothing
Yes, I used to live in South Dakota. But I moved back. Without God the power of money will not be broken. What do you think?
I lived close to Pierre, and actuallly I worked for the government of South Dakota
I got very much upset on how much money rules the USA.
ok are you in germany
We are going to fail anyway with or without OWS, there just isn't that much participation from the masses.
Do you know what happed in Germany where I come from and live. Germany was devided. East Germany was communist. So there were a handful of people meeting every Monday at a church in a big city called Leipzig and prayed to God to reunite Germany. After a couple of years the masses started meeting at this very church on Mondays to demonstrate for more freedom. The system was toppled within a couple of weeks and without bloodshet the system of East Germany was gone. I am still about to cry when I think of the joy we all had when we were reunited. I am not a patriotic person at all but this event was overwhelming. God heard the prayers of these people. They had faith. Faith moves mountains and masses.
The radicals in OWS are the most patient people I know. They are revolutionaries but know that we are not in a revolutionary situation. They know it will take years, probably decades, possibly several lifetimes to achieve the kind of just, peaceful, democratic, loving society we seek. The liberals who support OWS, on the other hand are among the least patient people I have ever met and are on the constant look out for some clever piece of legislation or some other get rich quick nostrum that will solve all our problems (in their minds, at least).
That's plain silly. You are thinking of people working for banks. They think like that.
What's silly about trying to understand the various political tendencies in OWS and how they think? There are no factions in OWS, formal or otherwise. The nature of organization in OWS is not conducive to factions, but they most certainly are tendencies. These observations come from being a participant observer and part time occupier in OWS since day one and both informal conversations and formal interviews with dozens of OWS activists.
I'm sorry. I did misunderstand you. I can see that yours was a true observation, and you are dedicated to the Movement. It was probably your usge of the word "liberals" that threw me. As a non American, I often have trouble understanding who is in this group. It really gets down to individuals and how much experience people have in the protest movement.
We do have to explain to some people that it will be a long haul, and there will be great successes, although they may not be apparent. An example of a success is that the churches/mosques etc. are understanding the good we are doing. These organisations can be quite conservative by nature.
So how are the radicals different from the liberals in terms of what is the best distribution of wealth?
The most important distinction between the radicals and the liberals in OWS right now (and these are mere tendencies, not hard and fast factions) is that the radicals tend to be more oriented toward movement building whereas the liberals tend to look more toward some rather modest paliatives such as campaign finance reform.
In terms of long term goals, I actually don't think that figures much in the differences between the two groupings, but it is real. The liberals clearly would favor a managed capitalism whereas the very question wouldn't be particularly meaningful to most radicals I know as they would seek a society which is outside and beyond questions of wealth and poverty.
Isn't it possible to make improvements in the present system while working toward a change in system? Do you think it is problematic for the movement as a whole if the liberals want to work on campaign finance reform (for example) asap while the radicals patiently build toward a just, peaceful, democratic society?
I don't think there is any major tendency in OWS that thinks in terms of major systemic changes on a day to day basis. Really what separates the radicals from the liberals in OWS is the radical tendency toward movement building while the liberals tend to look for get rich quick nostrums such as an explicit set of demands or some quick fix legislation.
As to whether you can't do both, as a practical matter that seems not to be the case. That is, people who are into movement building don't have the time to get buried in what kind of specific demands to raise or what kind of legislation to focus on whereas people who want to focus on legislative remedies or putting forward a specific set of demands tend to be too focussed on that to engage in much practical movement building.
Can you say a little more about movement building? What kinds of things do you find to be most productive?
The most productive thing in terms of movement building is the opposition of local municipal governments and their police forces on the movement. Every time there has been a police crack down on the movement anywhere it has tended to grow everywhere. The oppositon of local municipal governments and their police forces to the movement has done more than any movement activist, group of movement activists or movement policy has done to build the movement.
This, of course, does not exonorate the movement itself from its own responsibilities to build itself. Certainly the alliance which the movement built with sections of organized labor from its earliest days is of signal importance. This is really the first serious alliance between organized labor and the radical intelligentcia since the 1940s and indicates a political maturity of OWS far in advance of the movement of the 1960s.
It's recent turn towards the occupation of foreclosed and empty houses and other property is another example to excellent movement outreach to the wider community.
Of course the more the movement grows the better. The more people that are engaged the more minds are engaged and the more minds that are engaged the more creative thinking there can be about still more movement building.
Certainly the evictions were a set back as many interested and curious people would stop by the occupations any hour of the day or night to learn more about the movement. With so many evictions that is no longer possible in many places, though I believe that re-occupations will begin to re-emerge in public spaces around the nation shortly.
How will this society look like. There have been many ideologies around. Are you searching for a new one?
I really can only speak for myself, though I have found many OWS activists who I think would be in some concord with my own views and from some of the OWS writing I've seen I think my own views are in concord with much of that.
I'd say that since we are such a long way from the kind of society we want to build, it is very hard to say what it will look like. The important thing is that ordinary people will be in control of all the decisions that affect our common lives, like going to war for example, or what is produced. It is also hard to answer that question precisely because most ordinary people are not yet engaged so we don't really know what things will look like until they do get engaged. So, the bigger the movement, the more accurate the picture of what a future society would look like. Right now we are a tiny, tiny movement. Even though we are part of the 99% as a movement we are still way less than 1% of the population. Once we have 10 or 20 million people occupying we will be in a much better position to outline the major features of a future society.
Now here is a problem I see. It takes wisdom to make good decisions. But if I look around to see who is seeking wisdom and when I look around what people do instead I have doubts that there will be enough widespread wisdom to come to good solutions. What do you think about this issue?
People learn by doing or by trying to do. People learn to walk by trying to walk. People learn to govern themselves by trying to govern themselves.
But if they watch sports all day and don't case about politics they will not learn. Don't you agree that there is a lot of vanity within the society. After all the media buzz about Barack Obamas Christian pastor and what he said there were still some people believing that he is a Muslim. Wisdom is a rare virtue in society. Don't you agree?
I don't think it is easy for people to learn how to govern themselves any more than it is easy for an individual to learn how to walk. The first thing is that they have to care to do it, which is not the case with most people yet, which is precisely why the main job of OWS remains to organize.
And how do you want to change it. How do you want to make them interested and instead of watching football learn about righteousness which is the base for any system to survive.
Getting people to care about the circumstances in their common lives is what organizing is all about. As Michael Moore put it, the best organizers for OWS have been Goldman Sachs, the big banks and brokerage firms and reactionary mayors like Bloomberg (most of which are Democrats). The more the crisis affects more people the more the movement will grow and given that many people do have a sincere sense of empathy, people do not necessarily have to be directly affected by the crisis themselves to join in solidarity with OWS.
I think you have a valid point because the personal circimstances are getting worse for many people. But I see the problem that it can drive them out to protest but it does not necessarily make them be interested in wisdom. What do you think?
People learn to walk by trying to walk. People learn to govern themselves by trying to govern themselves. To look at what is happening to the world or to them personally and for people to say "this is wrong." Is a first step on the road to political enlightenment. Another step is deciding that, to use a metaphor, you actually can fight city hall and sometimes you can win. People learn to govern themselves by trying to govern themselves. One of the first steps in that direction is building organizations that they themselves govern, organizing a rally, a picket line or a strike are all activities which require the development of new skills in terms of learning how to govern.
Hey! I'm a liberal - and I'm radical!
I think I resent that.
Here:
you are radical Zen :)
I just voted for that comment,
because it is so dayum true . . .
; D
fukinA
lmfao! word
In terms of my understanding of liberal and radical activists in OWS, the distinction I see is that the radicals are not about to go home absent a fundamentally transformed society, which they don't see being accomplished by any or even a lot of legislation, Constitutional changes or changes of the people in public office. The radicals seek a fundamentally just, peaceful, democratic and loving society, which is unlikely to occur with any legislation or even a lot of legislation, but might start to happen if we have a GA in every neigborhood, every military barracks, every drug rehab center, every school and college and especially every work place.
Those people who would characterize themselves as liberals, on the other hand, would probably be satisfied with something as paltry as campaign finance reform.
Since even something as pathetic as campaign finance reform is likely to pass anytime soon, sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between the two groups excepting that the natural habitat of the liberals tends to be in the Demands Working Group and around the 99% Declaration.
I'm afraid we'll have to break a few things before we can possibly get any meaningful legislative solutions.
What happens after that, I don't know - but to me it seems unreasonable to expect GAs on every street corner.
Why is it unreasonable to expect a GA in every neigborhood and every work place? It was unreasonable to expect the occupation of Zuccotti Park, yet there we were and there we shall be.
oh, I dunno. It just seems like we have such a diversity of opinions, cultures, personalities, that to get everyone doing the same thing just seems . . . unlikely.
I certainly don't expect everyone to do the same thing, nor does OWS as a movement. The fact is though that General Assemblies have sprung up all over the world as the primary decision making mechanism of occupations everywhere. Typically they predate occupations and more often than not it is local GAs that call for occupations in particular places.
To see GAs as the basic political unit of a democratically reorganized society is no more peculiar than seeing some kind of parliament as essential to bourgeois democracy.
I know of organizations where it does work - sort of. The GAs have a mixed rate of participation, but over all it does work.
I do question whether you can actually run a nation that way though.
I don't know if GAs could run a nation or not. There are, after all, only a handful of them involving not more than (generously) 200,000 people in a nation of 300 million. Should they develop in the work place they would be the equivalent of workers councils which have proved capable of running nations in many instances only to be brutally put down by counter revolution, not by their own internal flaws. Should such a development unfold world wide a counter revolution would be less likely as there would be fewer bases from which it could operate. That ultimately is the purpose of solidarity.
Well think again because you want freedom as a liberal. The unrighteousness enslaves the people. If you want to be free than live a righteous live. But how can we humans do that. Who can say that he is free from evil that he has cleansed his heart?
hey, mister. Don't preach to me.
remove first from your own eye,
that which makes you blind . . . .
Is this you?
well yeah -
my picture, my words
I'm a free radical, and a bit of a minor poet -
click the pic, that's my website
So what do think is the meaning of life? What is your meaning?
review my website
i'm living it
I looked at your web site and also read two poems. But it didn't tell me what you think the meaning of your life is. What is the purpose of your life. Why do you live?
because I haven't died
So you don't see one. Aren't you feeling like a ship tossed around in the open sea without a destination? Nowhere to go?
Do you give those who are comfortable on the open sea without a destination the right to be just that? Or, do you know best for all?
I dont't think that it is about knowing best of all. But I was like a ship in the open sea as well till I found a harbor where I am at home now. Just wanted to tell about this harbour to my fellow captains who are still out there.
Try to understand that not all people on an open sea are looking for a harbor. That is great if that was what you found to be your saving grace but at some point begin to understand that not all people wish to experience life the same way. That would be like saying if my brother enjoys working at McDonalds then surely we all would. There are differences among us. Never is it a good idea to assume that everyone would be interested in what you are interested in as wonderful, comfy, cozy or enlightening as it may seem for yourself. That's all.
what if the weather forcast is wrong? the point is you will not save the world because not everyone in this world has a desire to be saved if you know what I mean.....let them be please.
I agree that many want to be out on the open sea. But what if the weather forcast says that a Tsunami is coming. and noone will survive out there. Then there will be people not believing it and will still remain out.
Well then surely if You are enjoying the harbor then everyone would, right?
The harbor is big enough for all
perhaps you are referring to the ship of state
did you know, or were you aware -
Jesus was a Liberal?
Jesus was a political dissident?
But there is one huge difference. He could perform miracles and not fake ones. He could even raise people from the dead. So don't you agree that we have someone very different from all other people.
Dead is a metaphor for blind to the truth. If the occupiers bring truth come out of your grave and see.
What do you mean?
I believe -
Jesus subdued an empire
and subverted a symbol of terror and oppression to one of hope and of peace.
In my book, that is quite remarkable.
That said, people like Jerry Falwell and Oral Roberts have given religion such a black eye, such a stain, - and they are not alone.
All of Christianity holds the view that no other view of human spirituality is either possible or valid. This is false doctrine.
I like your observation of Jesus turning a symbol of terror and oppression to one of hope and peace. Thanks
This is a problem of our time. We think about facebook, twitter, superficial stuff, we make the moneychangers rich and do not come to God to get help. What do you know about God?
Forgive me, but I don't think that God really has anything to do with this one way or the other, except as a rhetorical vehicle referring to compassion for the poor and distrust of the financial sector as "American ideas steeped in Christian values." What I really think this movement needs is enough political focus and commitment to political action that we don't need the presence in the parks any more.
I am afraid I have to disagree, because I have studied the works of God and came to the conclusion, that not even a sparrow falls from the sky without His consent. All things are controlled by Him. And I am happy about that, because He is the only good and the only one in authority who is faithful to the oppressed.
Here's the thing; while I don't share your religious beliefs I do recognize significant commonality with one whole large chunk of Christian values (and Christian church heritage, especially in Latin America) and what OWS is attempting to accomplish, and not attempting to make use of that commonality is rather silly.
But if God is for real wouldn't be a huge helper. Like rebels in Lybia getting asisstance from the air forces of western countries which is of course a poor comparison because God is much more powerful than all armies of this world.
[Removed]
This is a forum for serious discussion. Most people are atheists and intellectuals. Your God stories won't go too far. You can try, but not many people will bite. I think we should thrust in God, not trust him.
What is knowledge without God? Once you are dead the discussion ends because it is end of the interlecual horizont of an atheist. What is 100 years of life for this universe. What a limited interlectual framework.
True knowledge without the bias of religious nonsense. I'm not scared of death, I welcome it. And, atheism doesn't mean there is nothing after death. It only means you respect the fact that you cannot know everything and you expect to be shown evidence before believing in something. I don't know what comes after death and I won't pretend I do. It's following the scientific method instead of blind faith.
If you don't know what comes after death you don't know much because the time after death is much more than before.
I don't think you know what comes after death, and if you say you do I think you are a liar. You have no logical integrity. Pretending to yourself that you know what something is doesn't mean it really is that way. I understand you feel the need to know the unknowable because it scares you, but I don't think making up stories is valuable. I'd rather admit I don't know. It's healthier for the mind and leads to a better more wholesome form of knowledge.
Judgement comes after death because the one who performed many miracles no scientist or philosopher can perform and the one who was risen from the dead (Where is Darwin: still dead) said so. What more proof do you need?
using the logic you just used, "Where is Darwin: still dead". i have to ask, where is Jesus?
As I said alive and watching you and waiting till you finally accept the fact that noone else has performed the miracles he performed and that He was risen from the dead like no other prophet and that He died for you sins so you can repent and obey Him and receive eternal life. WHat are you waiting for. Do you want to die in your sins?
what sins have i done. i don't lie, cheat or steal. and I return to those who do me wrong in like measures. those that know me respect me. and those that don't, don't concern me. those that I injured, by lying. cheating and stealing, I have made amends. I believe they should be the ones that I ask for forgiveness. asking GOD for forgiveness is just me asking myself to forgive me. how does that make the world a better place?
What proof have you shown. None. You are just spewing your beliefs.
I think it is useless to continue this discussion because you do not want to believe the fact that Jesus was risen from the dead.
Not exactly. I don't consider this a fact. It would be more precise to say I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. I agree. This discussion is useless. The problem with religious people is that you base your thoughts on assumptions and beliefs. There's no room for logical argumentation and science in that world. It's just a matter of what you believe. Another guy with another religion will believe something else. I don't find this interesting. It's rather boring in my opinion. Thanks for the talk.
I wish you the best.
whele im a christain
What church do you go to?
1400 yes
What do you mean?
i mean you have 1600
Still don't get it, sorry?
i'm not a Christian but the ethical impedes behind Christianity is a good one. I read the Bible like I read other philosophy and am impressed with its values. with that said, I believe that some of it is out dated. and maybe some of its values that have been deleted, usury laws, needs to be revisited. I believe that God represents perfection, and Jesus was a model of perfection for his time. I hope this comment does not offend you.
well thats true again i gess i think that to somtimes
It does not offend me at all. When you read the Bible and it talks about miracles life Jesus raising someone from the dead, what do you think about that, since you don't hear that from lets say German philosophers like Nietzsche.
well, because i have never seen a human raise from the dead, i have a problem believing it. But, because I know people like to ride the coat tails of great people, I am more inclined to believe that others made it up to bask in Jesus's glory.
What about all the prophecies in the old Jewish books, which are written a couple of hundred years before Jesus. The date of His bith, the place and the cirumcustances were predicted. The same is true for His death. And then the moral logic that the innocent dies voluntarily for the sinners so their righteousness comes by faith and not by works?
maybe Jesus read those books and found personal enlightenment. personal enlightenment to me is that even with all the bad in the world there is more good and to fixate on the bad is to fall into hell. if prophesy is real than why are people no longer prophesying? unless you count the scientists who are saying global warming is killing the ecosystem, prophesy seems to be antiquated. I have a hard time believing 100 percent of anything I read Because the author has to eat. what Jesus said on the mound is sage advise. what the catholic church used to consolidate power when taking all the stories of that time is another story.
God is not giving you more prove other than He raised Jesus from the dead and many people have been witnesses to that. If you do not believe my wisdom ends on how to convince you.
Death in life is to fixate on the bad in life. Jesus rose from the dead once he began fixating on the good. That is what made him a wise teacher that everyone who related to his words began to fallow and incorporate. Benjamin Franklin has sage advise to give. Did God raise him from the dead? Jehovah's witnesses do Jesus' work all the time. are they going to rise from the dead? love for thy neighbor is good advise. Live for the next life seems like a waste of life.
We don't even know the exact date of birth of Jesus, so how can we comment on whether or not a prediction about this date came true? Hell, we don't even have solid evidence that Jesus even lived.
If 500 witnesse are not enough I don't know what you ask for? Did Alexander the Great live? Did Aristoteles live? Did Constantine the Great live? It seems like you accept historic writings only if they reject Jesus and God.
There are no historical accounts of Jesus by historians of his time. The first accounts of Jesus come some 70 years after his death.
How do you know? Do you know all historians?
I don't know all historians, but I have yet to see the writings of an historian who was a contemporary of Jesus and who wrote about him. If the writings of such an historian are found, then I will change my mind. Until then, I have no proof that Jesus ever was.
What makes someone a historian. A degree in history from an US College. If not then I say Luke. He was a physician.
There were no US Colleges in Jesus's time. What makes a good historian is someone with a rigorous method who takes the proper time to write down history. I don't care what that person studied, as long as he or she is rigorous. There were great historians when Jesus was alive. Luke wasn't a contemporary of Jesus and that's my point. His gospel was written around 70 years after Jesus's death.
Now I have a problem with your scientific approach of claiming that the Roman time witnesses did not record it. How can you prove that. All you can say that you personally have not seen any record in the USA 2000 years later. What scientific logic are you basing your statement on when you say there is no record. I think it is completely impossible to find a logic proof?
I am sorry I can not come up with one right now.
You're confused about who bears the burden of proof. The person who claims Jesus is bears it, not me. We cannot prove things do not exist, however that does not mean we should believe in them. Do you believe in fairies, dragons, the Tooth fairy, or pink elephants? They are like Jesus, you can't prove they don't exist. What about Aragoon? He was the twin brother of Jesus and they use to have intercourse together after breakfast? You cannot prove this is not true, you were not there. So, why do you not believe?
When I see texts by contemporaries of Jesus who talk about Jesus then I might believe he existed. Until then, I think he is like dragons, fairies, and Aragoon; unproven to be so not worth believing in.
But he carefully researched
I'm not sure about that. He had no written material to base himself on. Just the testimonies of people who were not contemporaries of Jesus. It's very strange. The problem is there were historians during the time of Jesus who recorded everything in fine detail. This was something the Romans were known for. For example, when people were executed by the Romans they wrote all the details in the court logs. No such detail exists for Jesus. Nothing was recorded about him. Even the gospels only talk about his birth - then a huge gap - and then the last years of his life. There is no information about Jesus's teenage years or his 20's. Personally, I don't believe Jesus was a real person. I believe he was fabricated. A character like Hercules.