Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Systems Theory Primer

Posted 2 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 4:24 a.m. EST by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

11 Comments

11 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 1 points by longingponderer (3) from Williamsburg, MA 2 years ago

I like where these conversations are going. I've learned just a bit about systems thinking myself. It seems all the more prescient with the chants of "We are the 99%" growing louder and louder. Capitalist values have inculcated our thinking. If we don't topple power systems, it doesn't matter if we eliminate the 1%--they will simply be replaced. Moreover, if we don't change the way we think, it doesn't matter if we topple power systems, we'll just reproduce them again.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 2 years ago

yes. pretty revolutions tend to end up becoming the same thing they just got rid of.

we must solve these problems in an evolutionary way without making the one percent victims.

[-] 1 points by rsfitzgerald (2) 2 years ago

THIS IS THE CONVERSATION THAT NEEDS TO BE HAD. You're 100% on the mark, in all of your posts. OWS needs to form a coalition of like-minded individuals to penetrate the conversation, pushing it toward a science-driven model for change.

I'm new to many of these ideas, but view this as undeniable truth. We have a chance here, with growing civil unrest that sparked worldwide protest, to change the conversation and begin the (inevitable) intellectual evolution.

My message to you, above all, is that you MUST UNDERSTAND the need for collaboration to achieve this.

SO LET'S BEGIN. We need the greatest minds to achieve this, and that's simply not me. We need to build an understanding that this is the only direction, and begin pushing toward it. We're getting to the end of the first Month, so it's obviously time to change the conversation, foster momentum, and infiltrate the political system on all levels to do so.

I'm going to check out all of your links tomorrow, and continue educating myself in a effort to find the path from point A to point B.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 2 years ago

thanks!


to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?

you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.

Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.

o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.

once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150343790359248&set=a.10150264906064248.348293.511989247&type=1&theater

[-] 1 points by rsfitzgerald (2) 2 years ago

This is your comment that my comment was intended for... We must start the process of putting these ideas into action. We have the momentum and this is the only serious way out.

We must use these mass protests to guide others into the light. OWS has already begun creating (unknowingly) the kind of community-based system that we will need to create, albeit, on a minuscule scale. Solar panels donated by Greenpeace, for instance, now power the media center.

Many great minds must come together and unleash their potential, striking now, while the iron is hot. I appeal to you as someone with an appetite for a larger conversation about this, that only a network a like-minded individuals can begin, and bring to fruition.

Incredibly tired, must retire.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 2 years ago

agreed..