Forum Post: occupy movement ; when is it going to get its head outta its ass?
Posted 11 years ago on Dec. 3, 2011, 5:45 p.m. EST by gawdoftruth
from Santa Barbara, CA
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
"They can rig the elections even with a 90 percent coalition, simply by programming the central tabulators to apportion the votes the way they wish, not as cast. They would indeed be caught, but they would simply say that it was a "computer glitch," as they usually do when caught. Since the unelected candidates would already have been sworn in by the time that the authorities were forced to admit that there had been a computer glitch, Constitutionally, even though everyone knew the election was stolen, they could only be removed by impeachment, which Congress rarely does--in the case of sitting Members of Congress, "rarely" means NEVER.
As for the Article 5 Convention, we'd need to have that first to get corporate money out of politics, and in order for it to pass and be ratified, we'd first need to elect people who weren't beholden to the corporations. In order to elect such people, we'd first need the Constitutional Amendments to make it possible, so we'd need the Article 5 Convention first, but we couldn't get such Amendments passed and ratified unless we first elected people who weren't beholden to corporate money. In order to elect such people, we'd need the Amendment to remove corporate money from politics first. But to get the Amendment passed and ratified, we'd need to elect honest politicians first.
You seem to think that we can elect honest politicians without first getting the money out of politics, or that we can pass Constitutional amendments to get the money out of politics without first electing honest politicians. Neither is possible without the other happening first.
If you know game theory, you should be able to figure that out."
you seem to think that i haven't already run all that three times. Heres the problem with all of your reasoning. Since EVERY aspect of this game is as corrupt as you say it is, the only sane position to take is that the changes put on the table have to be fundamental, sound, lucid, and clear headed, so that what we are fighting FOR is evolutionary. WHEN the elites then have their con scam and are caught, that propels the game to escalate. Since its all rigged and con scam med through and corrupt, our best bets are to escalate as far as we can on each front and do all of the work that is possible on each front.
What you are in essence arguing against is not operating on the only front that actually matters, given that the only chance we have really of beating that problem ahead of it is to actually have a paradigm shift which convinces the one percent to actually stop being evil and join us. All it takes is a significant fraction of them to do that, and the power of the rest of the them is screwed like that.
I'm getting sick and tired of this. I hav put all of the real solutions on the table and if you all didn;t have your heads up your asses you'd be back at the wiki doing work. Instead, somebody whos got a tiny fraction of the understanding that i do is trying to tell me what i SEEM to think according to them as they spin in strategic confusion.
The real solution is, we don't do one thing and then the other next; we do it ALL simultaneously.
anything less will fail for precisely the kinds of reasons you seem to enjoy pointing out and then failing to see the real game consequences of.
We must come out with evolutionary solutions to 1001 very different high order problems, or this isn't going to fly.
We must implement all of those solutions AT THE SAME TIME, and even then, the monster of corporate oligarchy may not go down any way other than kicking or and screaming and fighting tooth and nail for 2 or 3 election years.
But probably, we can win this all in under 4 months, all you have to do is stop pontificating and chit chatting and BSing me and actually bother to go READ the plan and then be a part of a paradigm shift.
What people arguing from your position clearly manage to miss is the evolutionary energy which exists which has been held in check for 200 years by the DAM of the oligarchies lies and propaganda and culture wars.
We have yet to even imagine en masse tapping that energy and so everything feels stuck. The opposite is true. if you all stop kidding yourself that you can chit chat your way through it and BS each other and BS me, and actually go to the wiki, and read, and then get busy implementing what i have put before us all as work, the energy potential of assorted sciences that have been swept under the carpet, the evolutionary energy of the internet, and the evolutionary energy potentials of society towards evolution in general can be tidal waves that blow all of the old structures out and wash them away.
OR, we can ignore me as usual, and 30 years later i get to say i told you so again to a bunch of ghosts that don;t even know or remember back when i was telling everyone so.
You know i predicted all of this 20 years ago and had the solutions then. Civilization has been 4 months away from fixing it for that fucking long; all you people would have to do is actually LISTEN.
i have spent 20 years doing this full time and all i have to show for it is accumulated proofs that humans are stupid and not worth trying to save.
You maybe be smart and you may also have the right answers but what you don't have is people skills. Without that no one will ever listen to you especially when you say they are all stupid and not worth saving anyway.
I have plenty of people skills. The problem is, when i employ them, you all ignore me anyhow. So now i am fernoyyed and not using them, so people like you take the obvious out. blame me for being the victim and make me wrong for pointing out that all of you are epic failing.
Fuck that and fuck the double bind and fuck the whole thing over the issue of freedom of speech. Some day i deserve to tell you what i really think of all of you and some day you all deserve to hear it.
Stop being stupid, and bother to actually help.
You are free to leave this forum if you like, no one is holding a gun to your head to stay here.
List of Threads on OccupyWallStreet.org
right. and what makes you think thats a solution to any problem?
your "social" skills are looking like ... ???
what? disinvite me?
Ten things. First, I have been here since the start of this online, i was probably one of the voices that spurred adbusters to even think of the idea in the first place, I have posted here in length pages deep hours on end and So if you have been present with that you know i have been here hard core for this. Second, I'm right about everything, and unless occupy movement listens its going to fail.
Third, this is a trollhatten comic strip, which is why you are confused in the first place and why i am all dracospeaked out in frustration and annoyance with that to start.
The amusing ironic paradox of it all is that this is the place the public is having this conversation, and so this is where I'm going to play the whole thing out just the same as all the fools.
The corporate oligarchy IS holding a gun- to everyones head. And so ironically, for anyone whos lucid, your statement is a double think joke.
Let me tell you how it really is. occupy movement surfed and exploited evolutionary forces which are already frustrated and cracked. If this movement fails odds are likely that would leave it for a whole nother generation of kids to grow up to pick up the new torch. By then your civilization will have self destructed, and those same kids won't have a chance to live a "natural lifespan" as a consequence, as humanity goes extinct.
Now. the corporate oligarchy is holding a gun to the head of the middle class, I'm morpheus, your neo, and have we got ourselves figured out yet?
I do understand your frustration but your methods will fall on deaf ears when you insult them.
and it falls on def ears in any case because of cognitive dissonance to start. See? you are all sleepwalking. the only chance i have to get you out of the rut is probably slap you silly first.
ask yourself the first question. why are you on a "forum" thats a million threads long and thus impossible for anyone to ever humanly read?
how many of these threads would be in essence virtual copies of each other that were made over time because nobody knew where to look for the old one?
Why is occupy movement epic failing to communicate or develop a detailed political platform on the issues?
How long would it take to have an actual revolution instead of just protest and get nothing but closer to martial law?
4 months i can give you a revolution; but you have to participate. so far, ows is a giant temper tantrum of a moronic zombot imbecile, freaking out blindly and attacking ignorantly the chains that have bound it.
I have tried being nice about it. The only way for the message apparently to be heard is to actually make the point that so far the occupy movement by any objective definition of a revolution is still epic failing, and will continue to epic fail until it gets organized in a manner consistant with a wiki.
100 thousand people in the streets for a year will bring you martial law. The Elites won' t listen. There is nothing to force them to listen, they have it all locked up every which way and think that the true opinions of the proles does not matter.
100 thousand people each spending 10 hours on a wiki brings us an evolutionary paradigm shift and that changes everything so fast and so completely and yet so stably that nobody is harmed; but the shift can't be prevented or fought against.
As a MARKETING PROBLEM for and to the 98 percent in the middle between oligarch propaganda and us (and currently its a fight between us and the one percent over who controls the sheeple flock heads.)
HOW will we talk the 98 percent into seeing it our way?
Mass media is well ahead of you and already has everyone on the tit of a pundit.
Mass media has and will continue to lie, spin, lie, not cover and ignore you for as long as possible, and then lie and spin when they are finally forced to cover you.
Def ears. I'm forced to do this because everyone was DEF EARED to START.
I think you do, in fact, understand the problem, but not the root cause of why people aren't motivated to change. I'm not sure that there is a single root cause. I also think that if you've been doing this for 20 years and haven't been successful in convincing others, there might be a problem w/ your methods. I've also never been successful in changing someones opinion if they weren't already open to change.
It seems like most people are satisfied w/ the status quo, until they're personally affected. Most people seem to be uncomfortable w/ change. A lot of people seem to only believe what supports their beliefs.
I wish you luck.
Excuse me. I think its presumptious of anybody to try to tell me i don't understand anything.
There is no problem with my methods. The problem is wholly with the failure of the rest of you to see the truth, care, grok it, and be anything other than stupid, evil, apathetic, and irresponsible towards it.
I understand perfectly WHY everyone does it. And today i am pissed off about it.
And i am out here to confront it. I'm sick and tired of all you people who should have been my allies jerking this thing off and accomplishing nothing.
I'm sick and tired of protests which will mean nothing 100 years from now. I'm sick and tired of the alpha males pointing 10 thousand heads at clogging a port instead of at a wiki- and sick and tired of noting that the outcome of this is that what is most important is being ignored.
Don't wish me luck. Either stop being ignorant and complacent and part of the problem, and get to work, or everyone go home and stop pretending that any of this protesting matters.
I don't need luck. I need wake ups and right action and the work of the public.
Excuse me? I didn't write that you didn't understand anything. I said just the opposite. Also don't presume that I'm ignorant and complacent. I've seen this coming longer than you have.
Relax Gawdoftruth, heck take a chill pill, drink a beer (or 12). but relax, the voices in your head aren't gonnna get ya. If you want, take a sock puppet and have your 'way' with it.
Plain fact is, is we cannot just be freaking' at every little panic(Y2K comes to mind), and no matter what your 'equations' are telling you, It'll all be OK
Yeah, i don't worry about my brodmanns brain areas getting me.
The bottom line is, its not going to be okay, and if you all "stay the course" on where this "movement" is going, everyone ends up DEAD.
You want to argue the point? Do you have any understanding of it? do you understand that there are 10 pounds of fuel attached to every pound of food 4 billion people eat? Do you understand that peak oil was 2004 and peak coal 2005? do you understand that the second half of the global fossil fuel supply is going to get burnt through ten times as fast as the first half because of the rate of development in other countries? Do you understand that we are actually down to the last FIFTH of oil in the world NOW.?
Do you understand what happens when the mass distribution network fails in a system which is entirely systemic dependent instead of internetworked and self sufficient? Do you understand that the 99 percent probability for timelines right now says that "the road" and "the book of eli" are what happens in essence next, and that those awesome holdouts who do manage to last two or five years into the collapse will face starvation, radiation poisoning, ecological collapse, and radical new disease; all at the same time?
Don't shuch me up and shoo me off. You have no fooking clue what you are talking about.
Don't shuch me up and shoo me off. You have no fooking clue what you are talking about.
That is where you are wrong( but not the first)
1.) peak oil was in 2004- wrong
peak conventional oil was in 2008 ( IEA Stats)
peak unconventional oil may be 100-200 years in FUTURe, we just don't know, heck, could be next year, doesn't matter.
Because solar is now cheaper than nuke, competitive with NAT GAS, and crosses coal by end of next decade so that
2) peak coal was in 2005( which also isn't true) does NOT MATTER.
we will, by no means pass peak coal till at least 2100, and even at that, now that the solar/wind game has won, so what?
but, I am sorry if I rained on your panic parade, go ahead and hide out with your Y2K generator on whatever end-of-the-world-wiki you want.
Just don't make the mistake that you think YOU are so superior, and the rest of us don't understand the problems.
We do, and we also understand the solutions are at hand.
these are all liar con game stretch numbers. All responsible parties admit peak oil and peak coal. At about the same time i am. There is some drift as far up as 2006, but IEA info is not that surprisingly skewed.
Solar was ALWAYS cheaper than nuclear power, as soon as honest instead of crooked cost/ benefit analysis was performed.
Clearly, You don't understand the problems, you have false information which is almost certainly the product of some end of the propaganda wars.
And no, you clearly don't understand the problems, nor do you understand the solutions, your just full of noise and nonsense and denial CRAP.
Well solar only crossed the EBITA number this spring (sorry if you don't know what that means) for Nuke, and is in close prox with nat gas. Coal on the other hand, is still cheaper, for now, but will cross over THIS decade.
But then you say I'M in denial? while you say solar always WAS cheaper? then, what the hell?
And IEA figures are only ones that are reliable. Sorry if I don't take rainbows and unicorn figures as a source ( at least I give mine)
And I'm sure as hell not arrogant enough to think the other guy doesn't know the facts. I always bring them to the table, and expect the same. You, of all people should know that.
So again, relax, chill out. It will all be OK.
Yeah, well, this is what really happened. They wanted to keep energy expensive, so they lied, and they did it by only comparing installation and start up costs to maintenance costs over the extreme short term. Solar has been cheaper than coal or oil or nuclear for 30 or 40 years now, but you have to count out to year 20, instead of limiting the simulation at 2 or 6 months in order to inflate the green sides costs and deflate the consumerist oligarchic vampires apparent costs on the other.
EBITA is just another con scam in on the grand con scam.
Listen to you. "these patent liars lies are the only reliable source of information."
See? this is why fucking humans are losing their asses to the oligarchs. I just told you how it really is, and continue to do so all day long, some times twelve hour days. but you THINK you are going to come back and tell me how it is.. With a bunch of insane and evil con scam BS that you have merely been duped with.
Yes, i am pissed off about it. "relax". I see how well thats working. I keep coming in here day after day relaxed and not shit for any of it. You all imagine that yo uare listening, but you aren't. Your BSing each other in a nonsense shit storm and everyones mostly only emitting and NOT actually listening to the other guy.
Simply put. I have zero actual participants on a wiki but me. This late in the game.
If ANY OF YOU had one iota of sense or knew one thousandth as much as you think you do or one hundredth as much as i actually do, you'd be on the wiki. Instead, you are casually repeating lies with math which absolutely depend on only running the shortest possible short term simulation of reality.
Now forget solar power, because its too low in yield. You only talk about solar power because they want you to be lost on the green form of energy thats expensive and toyish. Geothermal power is three orders of magnitude cheaper than solar and 4 orders of magnitude cheaper than any kind of fuel or nuclear power or etc.
Its also the greenest, the most accessible, and the highest in potential yield, hands down, period, in every case. The only thing it doesn't win hands down is scalability.
You are only talking even about solar power because you are ignorant and duped, and i have to somehow find it in my heart to continue being nice to all you ignorant propaganda robots and explain to you why i am right and your wrong while you insanely have our relationship reversed in your mind.
yah. chill out. relax. No, you relax. And then go run a real numbers cost /benefit analysis of the different forms of energy and then get back to me, because i went and did all my homework already, your just quoting stupid evil official bunkum nonsense designed to keep you addicted to expensive energy instead of dropping your energy bill down to cents per year.
if you think this can be changed in 4 months you are a bit naive, despite your superior mental capabilities.
this is the beginning of a process that will take years before we see a realistic change in the world.
slip on the harness and pull bro'.
if you think its can't be changed in four months then you don't understand how that would happen. Calling me naive is stupid rhetoric ad hom. In fact i have a 180 IQ and the majority of the high order solutions already handy from studying thousands of textbooks. In fact everyone ELSE is being naive, wasting their time protesting and BSing instead of facilitating a paradigm shift.
This does not need to take any longer than four months. Taking longer is drawing it out. Just in terms of oil and coal and your mass distribution network which is about to fail (as only one of a dozen different doomsday clocks now ticking) you only HAVE 7 years left till everything fails and thus everyone dies.
You don't have any more time for BS and nonsense and noise and protests in the streets. Unless we have a paradigm shift immediately, everyone dies. Your protests will merely end up the last hurrah and whatever life form evolves after us may be able to pull up data points to explain what happened and they may even be able to figure out the now extinct humans protested en masse... before the shit hit the fan.
slip on the harnass and pull? WHAT?
I am pulling the weight of the actual revolution alone, operating a wiki almost alone, and solving all of the high order problems- alone. Meanwhile this "movement" might as well be jerking off. There is fatal error after fatal error for building a global internet network. There is mass miscommunication, this site is a trollhatten, still waiting on sub forums that have never come, a moderation meta process thats not fascist, etc...
Don't tell me to put on a harnass and pull. Take off your chains, quit letting the mob mind lead you around to do stupid useless pathetic temper tantrumming in the streets, and bother to be a part of the solution instead of just more entropy and noise as the great Ship USA sinks.
I'm doing it all alone, because the rest of the "movement" can't grow up.
how are you going to have 7 billion change in 4 months??? it will take a long time for that to happen.
the ows movement doubled every 5 days or week in size until about a week and a half ago, at which its growth rate steeply dived.
Simple. 100,000 people must effectively communicate to 100,000 more people by this time next week. The problem is they have run out of bandwidth for not having a very clear and detailed presentation for their issues. So they have too many people too skeptical, and the word of mouth network has roped in most of the fish its going to until our signal to noise ratio comes up. bring the signal to noise ratio up; obviously. How would you do that? Well, you'd GET TO A WIKI.
and then 200,000 effectively communicate in a week to 200,000, and then 400,000 effectively communicate in a week to 400,000, and then 800,000, and then 1,600,000, and then 3.2 million, then 6.4 million, then 12.8 million, then 24 million, then 48 million, then 100 million, then 200 million, then 400 million, then 800 million, then 1.6 billion, then 3.2 billion, then 6.4 billion... will spend the last month wrestling down the one percent. Assuming we go back to a doubling time of once per week or so, thats 16 or your four months and then the hardest conversation and argument in human history between the 99 percent and the one percent for a month.
lol. all things built that are now real were once merely something somebody first imagined.
We would like to announce the Grand Opening of the Occupythiswiki.org Website. It is and will continue forever to be under construction, but there is now more than enough structure to organize and facilitate other efforts.
We would like to invite you there as a participant, and this is VERY important, PLEASE come to the wiki and become a Participant, or find people with whom you can network who have internet Access and get them to come to the Wiki to represent your end of the Network, and to keep you plugged into the process, and information regarding what is going on there.
This Wiki is CRUCIAL to the meaningful evolution of our species, It is CRUCIAL to human survival beyond this Century, and it is HOW all of WE can ever hope to give full and meaningful attention to the very LARGE NUMBER OF IMPORTANT ISSUES.
Please then, Consider what A General Assembly does for us. It is evolutionary, it is consensus and community building, it is 5 or ten minutes for you to speak live and in person and eye to eye and heart to heart with other people about the issue that matters to you. This is evolutionary, this is powerful, this is how we bring hundreds of years of knowledge thats being held back and hidden back from behind the veil; However, what we all know is that our personal important issue NEEDS MORE THAN THAT. It needs new laws written on its behalf. It needs open source research. It needs open source problem solving and democratic, consensus driven, direct democracy fueled problem solving process. If we gave each sub issue its own time and space to resolve inside of a GA, that would take WEEKS, or MONTHS or EVEN YEARS to iron out in a GA, PER ISSUE. How do we expand direct democracy fast enough, how do we accelerate direct democracy till its smooth as greased lightning instead of feeling stuck? How do we all come away from the GAs of next year feeling like our issue has been actually listened to and heard and resolved and addressed by the masses, instead of feeling like our own personal issue has been more or less ignored while some ego driven internal oligarch pressed ahead with organizing tens of thousands of people to do anything other than the WORK on the INTELLECTUAL LEVEL that CONSTRUCTS a REVOLUTION by means of a PARADIGM SHIFT... Instead of Demonstrating ourselves silly; But achieving still next to nothing and certainly not an end to Corporate Oligarchy, which has its plan to Co-opt the movement and make it work for the ELITES and oligarchs.
Please Consider carefully HOW we will build the NEW POSSIBLE WORLD. More important than HOW we will protest or WHERE, is the more fundamental Question of What does OUR NEW WORLD of DEMOCRATIC and CIVILIZED society Look like,(??!??) in terms of ITS ANSWERS and SOLUTIONS to EVERY high order problem. Only protesting but not doing that intellectual work, we can fail to have a revolution. The right order of the revolution should have been, First get mass educated, first form a new political party, first call for an article 5 Constitutional convention, and THEN once the message is 10,000 pages long and crystal clear , edited by ten thousand people with one person actually authoring a single page... about their core important issue to them...
THEN You'd take to the streets, THEN you'd start protesting, THEN you'd start occupying. The Occupy Movement put the cart before the horse. Okay, well, On a moving along and clear and present and how do we fix it note then, How do we DO THE WORK and get the Cart and horse in the RIGHT ORDER.???
There is a Giant Dam created by republican and democrat propaganda war dumble down and oligarchic control and intentional damage they have done to our so called educational system. 200 years of social and civil intellectual progress is being held back by 200 years of lies, spin doctoring, dumble down, and the simple meta function of keeping the public ignorant.
If you want then ONE SINGLE METHOD by which to END THE GAME. STOP BEING IGNORANT. Tell everyone and tell the world and stop running from the work, and crack open 1001 textbooks as a mob and then learn and only AFTER you have knowledge, TRY? TO USE KNOWLEDGE, not OPINION, to work and solve the problems. Everyone has to let go of their opinions, of their pet issues, of their biases, of their agendas, of their team sport ISMS and SCHISMS which are the bread and circuses THIS holy roman cathar empire uses to keep us divided and conquered and forever sequestered away from intellectual and thus spiritual Enlightenment.
yes, but they weren't manifested on this planet in a predetermined time scale. they evolved naturally over time
Would you repeat that please?
Stupid goyim, bunch of sheep & cattle.
I spent about the same amount of time (a little longer actually) trying to convince ppl how money is unnecessary and found a bunch of quotations from famous ppl who believed in eliminating money also.
IMO: the world can't be saved without Babylon falling first.
merely getting rid of money is not a solution, we would have to evolve out of it naturally. The idea of "babylon falling" is a neat fascist little temper tantrum of a revenge fantasy, but the problem is "babylon" is the only thing keeping 4 billion people alive. If it fails, the outcome is human extinction, not utopia.
Instead, we have to take the more complicated and direct approach of building a new civilization even AS this one slowly dies.
I look forward to there being 4-billion less ppl. I also look forward to writing a screenplay where a messiah, with 12-famous disciples rebukes all the religions, tells the truth about recent history (lies of our government) and advocates eliminating money.
then you are sick, and miss the entire point of this.
You ARE one of those people, so you are just being a smart ass about your own death.
"eliminating money" is an infantile temper tantrum revenge on money.
Grow the fuck up.
You want to get rid of money, start talking about economic singularity, self sufficiency, and dynamic localization, which are evolutionary patterns which wil leventually mean that money will become obsolete.
TRYING to end money is simply an exercise in infantile self defeatism. moving the money paradigm along to new evolutionary stages and allowing natural selection to finally end money instead of trying to stupidly force the issue is the REAL solution.
anarchism is rebel without a clue sheeple cage number 47 C.
and religious tainted BS does NOTHING to bring focus to the sciences or what matters is any of this.. but at least as usual we can COUNT on the RELIGIOUS to LOOK FORWARD TO EVERYONE BEING DEAD.
And great will be the fall thereof.
The problem with OWS is that many perceive this government to be illegitimate.
But they don't take the time to explain to people on why the government is illegitimate. So to people perceive them to be a bunch of aimless protesters.
Unless you clearly state the problems in the form of a list of demands this movement is going nowhere.
LISTEN OR PERISH.
"given that the only chance we have really of beating that problem ahead of it is to actually have a paradigm shift which convinces the one percent to actually stop being evil and join us."
There is not a chance in hell of that ever happening
then enjoy the long march to extinction.
enjoy martial law, because thats where it goes next. enjoy unmasking the fascist bandit corporate oligarchs, who will then just smile, nod, and have martial law, round everyone into concentration camps, kill almost everyone, chip the remainder, and the still run into assorted systemic fatal errors which will doom the humans.
Don't tell me what will or will not happen. Grow the fuck up and be a part of positive social change and work.
You don't know. This is the real joke of some muggle trying to tell me anything. I can model the actual ODDS of that happening. You just THINK and have an OPINION based in complete abject IGNORANT egotism, without even knowing the actual core fundamental cause and effect relationships, without having simulation mechanics, you just think you can out and pronounce how it is. Its all a fucking joke. You don't know squat.
I put forth the REAL solution, and your sure as a frigging reflex action come here and SHEEPLEHERD yourself and others, like a programmed little zombot, to try to tell me what is and is not possible.
But you don't KNOW SQUAT.
You just imagine that you do, and whats really going on is you reflexed on dumble down programming point. You have been PROGRAMMED to live in the shadow of calling all real positive good changes impossible and being powerless and apathetic thus to make anything happen.
In short, you have a fine excuse to do nothing; your assumption and your get out of bothering to have any work free card; handed to you by agent smith, and redeemable any time.
Okay so basically you're telling me that the 1% are monsters and we should try to convince them to side with us?
Yes. They are demonic little social parasites, and we have to figure out how to make at least half of them change their minds. You may think that sounds impossible, but what most people fail to understand is that this does not end well for them either, and so we ALL have an interest in finding a new and better path for civilization to take. It won't matter if you are a billionaire if there is systemic collapse all that kind of money will do is buy you a few extra months or years.
We have to stop framing this as 99 percent vs the one percent and start framing it as EVERYONE VS human extinction.
Problem is that the 99% know enough people who are evil who are NOT a part of the "1%"-but wish they were, or who would LOVE to see the 1% brought down so that THEY can take over in their place.
Until this society defines every clearly and completely what "evil" truly is, and prosecute those who are proven to be "evil" by that definition as an example to the rest, there will ALWAYS be "evil" people and problems to deal with.
i have spent 20 years doing this full time and all i have to show for it is accumulated proofs that humans are stupid and not worth trying to save.
Yet another with an anal fixation.
We don't need to convince the one percent of anything except that the jig is up, and we do that by pushing ahead, showing the rest of the 99 percent that their actions can matter (unlike their votes in a rigged and corrupt system.) The Civil rights movement never had the majority participation of even liberals and African Americans, but it was an idea whose time had come, and a determined minority pushed on because they knew they were right. Same here.
yeah, that sounds good until you realize they have all the money, all the guns, and have rigged everything so that catching them at the jig only forces them to play their other aces.
You will know that you and this movement have actually achieved adult hood instead of protest mob mentality when you can think of the one percent as victims of a broken system and clients for services which our new evolutionary system will provide.
Until you stop on the one hand demonizing the people, and start on the other hand actually working the problems, everyones spinning in the psychosis of what amounts to a temper tantrum blame game.
Whose really at fault? I believe that V actually put it best. YOU. WE. are ALL of us RESPONSIBLE, for the thousands of times we didn't stand up for what we should have.
You can BLAME THEM all you like, but heres the hard reality. The milk is spilled. its rotting. And nobodies cleaning it up. And its breeding new diseases in our collective living room.
OR, WE can GROW UP together and BOTHER to GET OUT THE MOP BUCKET.
WHO spilled the milk is really not as important as CLEANING the MESS and making SURE THIS DOESN"T HAPPEN AGAIN.
True, you can't really blame hyenas for being hyenas, can you? Still got to stop them though. They have the guns, etc... That's why revolution requires hard work, patience, thought. Mistakes will be made, probably collossal ones but that's the way of things. Long and winding road.
True, you can't really blame hyenas for being hyenas,.....true but I still won't let them into my yard. Nor will I turn my back on them
You've spent 20 years proving that human beings are stupid and not worth saving. If your proof is so solid and irrefutable, why don't you just believe your own results and stop trying? Seems to me that continuing to try only proves you don't really believe what you say yourself.
that would be the self interest sane thing to do. quit. it would also be immoral, because its an infinite zero sum game and i am uniquely positioned to appreciate just how much everyones lives are on the line. Perhaps most importantly I came to this ass backwards pit of a planet specifically and precisely for the purpose of helping the humans evolve- so i don't have ANY other strong purpose here.
Lets READ IT the other way. Get your head out of your ass, and wake the fook up.
your civilization is on fire. in under 20 years any one of ten different systemic cascading failures could doom humanity to extinction.
Its a dead civilization NOW, its just taking a long time to die.
What we replace it with is crucial, because unless we come up with something fast, everyone goes to the bottom of the ocean attached to the boat that is now sinking and must sink.
USA corp hit an iceberg of corruption, and its tore open well enough that it MUST by laws of physics sink. Just like the titanic, you have only x amount of time until that happens. Now. We can build a plan B civilization together or not, but i am sick and tired of everyone wasting my time, and i think its high time i mention it.
this "movement" has not even BEGUN the work on the front that matters; without a paradigm shift this "revolution" ends badly.
in 2003 i told the protesters to wake up and grok this reality or have no effect. they didn't listen. they had no effect.
Same thing. Here we are. Don't even play games here.
2000 years ago, give or take, the only perfect man to ever live, predicted exactly what was going to happen on this planet. You are not that man. You did not create, nor can you save, this civilization because it's not yours to save.
Some humans will choose to evolve, and some will choose not to. But all will reap the consequences directly related to their own actions in the end.
The Titanic hitting an iceberg wasn't the problem. The problem was that there weren't enough lifeboats on her to save everyone. Enough lifeboats were built and ready before her maiden voyage, but somewhere along the chain of authority, someone decided that "all those lifeboats" looked hideous on her and made the decks look crowded instead of spacious. And since everyone said that it wasn't "physically possible" to sink her in the first place, surely putting them all on wasn't even necessary.
It was pride. And ego. And bad decisions that resulted in the tragic losses of the Titanic. It will be the same with the world as well.
Yeshua ben yeoseph and the roman cathars holy war of genocide and spiritual repression aren't on topic here.
I do not claim to be able to prophetically predict 2000 years into the future, only 50 or 100 or so, and thats because i have knowledge of systems theory and can simulate things at a level beyond ordinary human comprehension.
You don't have anything to say on this. You are just blabbering reflexive gospel speak and reframing the metaphor. The problem is in essence the same problem. We can compare life boats to self sufficient communities, and then see that on this boat there are ZERO lifeboats. What city in the USA is prepared to carry on in a self sufficient manner should the macro economic system collapse? What city can feed all its people, protect them, and maintain civil order, when the macro economic system and its assorted "support" systems fail?
There is not one. The hallmark of the dysfunctionality of the system is that everythings been made systemically dependent on the macro system and detached from the realities of even trying self sufficiency. The oligarchs like to go so far as to take out these high risk loans on whole cities and states and then bet and run the bet crookedly that the city will default. They are TRYING to bankrupt whole cities and states.
To make everything and everyone dependent on them.
So there is only one boat, no life boats.
And I'm the guy who has ordered you all to get the fire axes out, chop up the wood, bind it together, and make survival rafts. And you are the quakjob moron, who in the face of that reflexes to religiousity. I can tell you won't be any help bundling things together to save our asses, maybe we should just toss you into the water to wake your ass up.
You "ordered" WHO? You ORDERED what? I missed the memo. Oh...and I don't respond to orders anyway. Especially from letters on a screen. I'm a quakjob that way. (Does spelling matter at your level of comprehension or not?)
And FYI....there's a whole passel of us out here who have done all they can NOT to rely on a "city" or "organization" to feed us, protect us, or maintain civil order. We also don't use money that isn't ours (credit), and we've attempted to be self sufficient in every way possible. We plan to save our own asses or die trying to.
Too bad you can't "simulate" a human race that makes "everything and everyone" dependent on you huh? But that would be inherently dysfunctional wouldn't it?
yeah, exactly the problem. And why they all died. Because if you TOOK the hint and responded to REAL authority which is TRUTH connected to RIGHT ACTION, then you would save everybody. But since you are obstinately defending your own sovereignty (while ironically and paradoxically fighting like a programmed zombot for your own slavery) everyone dies.
I didn't order anything or anybody. The WAY to SAVE the victims of the TITANIC in the METAPHOR is to give SANE ORDERS which nobody ever gave.
I gave better than orders, i gave the solutions.
I am happy for the people trying to become more self sufficient. You will be early targets of the ones who didn't, unless we pull this all together.
I already know about all the eco villages, and permaculture, so you ain't got nothing new to say.. i already know about all of that. You are of course missing the point. BTW, i already know that some few people are trying to become self sufficient. Great Job.
Save your own asses. and then die. trying to.
Your last rhetorical BS is like? WTF?
The systems problem as is is that the oligarchs have made us all dependent on the far ends of the corporate system, in order to wield that power and manipulate it. We are dependent. The solution is self sufficiency. And while there are certainly communities out there who understand this, they are just large enough to be meals for the mobs that will form when the shit hits the fan.
Occupy movement if it is going to be successful must confront the issues; all of them, and in an evolutionary manner, or every issue we don;t confront is social and civil entropy and there are in any cases things we can't get to fast enough.
This is serious business, and the survival of humanity is at stake. I CAN simulate all kinds of societies and civilizations, but i wouldn't bother to simulate one that was dependent on ME.
Your very line of conversation is dysfunctional. You manage to score points for self sufficient communities but create a me VS you polarization and exclude the thought that I'd ALREADY HEARD OF THAT.
WTF? you again prove my point. Even my should have been allies are too stupid and wreckless to listen.
First-I've never heard of you or your solutions. If you've been at this since 2003-and IF you have the solutions that would insure the survival of humanity, and IF the majority of the human race would naturally and obviously agree with your solutions upon hearing of them, then I'd think you would have attracted a following of your own well before now. Which "if" has failed you?
You excluded the thought that I, and others like me, might have never heard of an eco-village or permaculture, and thus it could not possibly be what I was referring to. (And I'm the one with the dysfunctional conversation lines?) I seriously had to google both concepts, and NO, that isn't how millions of people are doing it. Much simpler.
First, we bought a home in an area where like minded people lived. People who can work hard and have the same values that we have. People who understand it is their obligation to provide for their OWN first, and then help others if and when they can. People who either do grow, or know how to grow, their own food and what and how to store what we can't grow. People who store fuel and light sources just in case the grid goes down. People who own their own weapons and network with others in order to provide protection for themselves AND each other should the angry mob actually make it this far "out" and still have the energy or ability to attempt to launch an offensive. (people being what they are, most of them will turn on each other LOOOOOOOOOOONG before we see them) Yep. I'm a wife, a mother, and a huge fan of target practice and loud noise. :)
Not a revolutionary way of living. In fact, it's downright old fashioned.
"First-I've never heard of you or your solutions."
nor anybody elses, nor all of sociology and civil engineering, nor of political science, or game theory, or systems theory, but you want to pin all of this on me instead of say bill mollison.
" If you've been at this since 2003-and IF you have the solutions that would insure the survival of humanity, and IF the majority of the human race would naturally and obviously agree with your solutions upon hearing of them,"
Its obviously item 3. humanity will naturally agree with the full list once it gets to be long enough. I can't give you downloads of information or type one thousandth of what i have read to explain it to you. We could do that together and then all therest of you yo uwouldn't have to be playing fools and be laughably ignorant to my actually diligently self schooled mind.
the problem of problems is that you are all running away from taking real responsibility, all replacing that process with mere victim mentality and vengeance mentality, and then doing about that the 3 year olds power play social tactic; which is have a temper tantrum. En masse.
If you had done your homework the viral event to create the thing in the first place would have carried a wave by now to have formed a meaningful third party and threat to the political establishment directly. Whether or not it would end that way is hard to say but if you want to talk about leverage against the powers that be you need to think about how WE would do their JOB better than they are doing it and then make that an open source exploration.
" then I'd think you would have attracted a following of your own well before now. Which "if" has failed you?"
"You excluded the thought that I, and others like me, might have never heard of an eco-village or permaculture, and thus it could not possibly be what I was referring to." No, I didn't, I'm just light years ahead of you, and already well into the direction your moving in.
" (And I'm the one with the dysfunctional conversation lines?) I seriously had to google both concepts, and NO, that isn't how millions of people are doing it. Much simpler."
What exactly are you doing? And HOW simple is it? Because the SOLUTIONS turn out to be complicated as size of population gets.
"First, we bought a home in an area where like minded people lived. People who can work hard and have the same values that we have. People who understand it is their obligation to provide for their OWN first, and then help others if and when they can. People who either do grow, or know how to grow, their own food and what and how to store what we can't grow. People who store fuel and light sources just in case the grid goes down. People who own their own weapons and network with others in order to provide protection for themselves AND each other should the angry mob actually make it this far "out" and still have the energy or ability to attempt to launch an offensive. (people being what they are, most of them will turn on each other LOOOOOOOOOOONG before we see them) Yep. I'm a wife, a mother, and a huge fan of target practice and loud noise. :)"
Neat, your encampments armaments may earn them a few extra months or years of life, and will otherwise make you merely another high profile target.
"Not a revolutionary way of living. In fact, it's downright old fashioned."
And only one tenth of the total solutions, not anything near approaching solving the whole enchilada for yourself or the rest of us.
Sounds awesome, now, fill in the details, and try to make sure they come from some kind of textbook.