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Forum Post: My Proposed Demands 1-5(of 23)

Posted 9 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 12:32 p.m. EST by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

"It is easier to imagine the end of all life on earth than it is to imagine a much more modest change in Capitalism." - Zizek

Below are my proposed changes to the American System. They are a work in progress, I figure it is better to get the ideas out there than to sit on them due to the urgency of this moment of uprising.

The only way to save the American system from the forms of pseudo-slavery that now exists is to demand changes that are beyond what anyone could imagine. Any conservative or merely palliative demands will leave the 1% plenty of wiggle room to use their tricks to nullify it within hours of implementation. Only demands that are truly disgusting to the 1% are going to be capable of restricting them from their predatory behavior. I do not consider these to be changes to capitalism because I do not consider our system capitalist. The alleged 'capitalist' institutions rely completely on control of and support from the government in the form of tricky laws and subsidies, both often obtained through the extortion of the entire population.

Since their continued existence depended and depends upon our purchase(calling it a 'bailout' concedes far too much) of their means of production, we, the people, own the institutions of the 1% anyway and have the right under natural law to do with their enterprises as we see fit.

I look forward to suggestions for improvement from the 99% and cries of outrage from the 1% and their lapdogs.

Super Glass Steagall Amendment

  1. Banks and Investment firms must be separated and remain separate. The United States government will be restricted from borrowing against the social security or national health care funds.

The Repackaged Debt Ban Amendment

  1. Selling of mortgages and student loans in aggregate form is banned.

The Anti-Usury Amendment

  1. All loans and lines of credit will have absolutely fixed interest rates. The unemployed will not be charged more than one late fee.

The Health Care Amendment

  1. Healthcare is a right for all Americans. An appropriate payroll tax will constitute an insurance payment for all workers. The profit margin for any health care business will be capped at 10%.

Investment Tax Law and Education Right Amendment

  1. Taxes on investment trading will be inversely proportional to time the commodity was held. Five categories of investment taxation will be created delineated by the duration the stock was held. The categories shall be: less than 1 second, less than one day, less than one month, less than one year and more than a year. Proceeds from these tax categories will be used exclusively to fund education through preschool-college for all americans and mental health treatment and/or counseling for any homeless individual. The starting rates for these categories will be 50%, 40%, 30%, 20% and 10%. Salaries for all university employees will be capped at the cost of four years tuition. The profit margin for any educational endeavor will be 10%. Tuition will not be used towards sports programs.

(to be continued)



Read the Rules
[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 9 years ago

One thing you should read before pursuing demands. Important. This could make or break the movement: http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-thing-you-should-read-before-you-vote-on-any-d/

[-] 1 points by doru001 (174) 9 years ago

You should better control the government, by using the Internet. You should monitor and participate into the public decision making process more than now. Don't tell the driver where to go, drive yourself.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

This is the official thread, I have endorsed this list tentatively in its current general form.


I also endorse the title V convention and the assembly taking place on 10/15 in NYC, although I can't make it.


I will be revising and prioritizing this list, and my reposts will focus on the suggestions of my 23 here that are in concert with the 8 primary demands listed on 9/28 by the general assembly.

I regret if in any way this post appeared to be an attempt to distract from that list.

[-] 1 points by TOTALRECALL (2) 9 years ago

Total Recall

Since Government is reluctant to make things better and allow corruption to spread, I think it is time for a Total Recall. This will get politicians attention.

Impeach elected officials from office for incompetence and gross negligence of duty

[-] 1 points by TOTALRECALL (2) 9 years ago

Total Recall

Since Government is reluctant to make things better and allow corruption to spread, I think it is time for a Total Recall. This will get politicians attention.

Impeach elected officials from office for incompetence and gross negligence of duty

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Never thought of that, way to think outside the box.

The system is what gets them elected not them, so absent them, we'd have just the system and guess who would replace them?


[-] 1 points by Haitiana4Obama (20) 9 years ago

Please remove the Mexico statehood thing, as an immigrant even from Haiti which is a struggling nation on her knees, I would find it offensive if any other country hope to annex my own in order to save it. It's not realistic nor respectful actually.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Noted. An invitation is not the same as an invasion you know though...did I say I wanted to save it? I was thinking more along the lines of working together.

[-] 1 points by Haitiana4Obama (20) 9 years ago

How about end PROHIBITION of Marijuana and thereby increasing revenue, lowering addiction on legal pain-killers, and lower the rate of recidivism.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

See dietary amendment below, I go considerably further than that.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

For the easy read, #18: The Diet Amendment 18. It is the inherent right of any American to purchase and ingest whatever he or she so chooses once they are of the age of 18. It is the inherent right of all Americans to possess and cultivate any food, medicine, or ingestible substance. All ingredients on all food, medicine, or otherwise ingestible substance shall be clearly labelled under penalty of five years in prison and confiscation of all assets of affiliated businesses. All literature and advertisement about food, medicine, or ingestible products which are bought or sold shall be honest under penalty of five years in prison and confiscation of all assets of affiliated businesses.

[-] 1 points by Haitiana4Obama (20) 9 years ago

Thank you! Really appreciate that inclusion.

[-] 1 points by pinardilla (49) from Rochester, MN 9 years ago

I'm all for legalizing, but we need to focus on an economic message here. Legalizing pot doesn't fix the underlying problems of our fiscal policy.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

That's why it's #18, and I'm still adjusting the numbers for priority. I want to grab for as much freedom as we can while we are still dreaming wildly. There is an open call for all ideas, right?

[-] 1 points by Haitiana4Obama (20) 9 years ago

It does actually have huge economic influences. Legalize, less kids thrown into jail and therefore stops the trend, raises revenue for the government, redistributes resources for law enforcement, and so much more economic consequences. It's all tied in to this failed PROHIBITION.

[-] 1 points by pinardilla (49) from Rochester, MN 9 years ago

Like I said, I'm pro-legalization. I'm familiar with all those benefits. But it doesn't deal with the schemesters of Goldman-Sachs et. al. on Wall Street. That needs to be the priority.

[-] 1 points by pinardilla (49) from Rochester, MN 9 years ago

Payroll taxes disproportionately hit the working poor, otherwise looks to be a good start, keep it up!

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I think several tiers or a fully graduated scale would be appropriate as far as the actual amount goes. Thanks for pointing this out!

[-] 1 points by justda (7) from Seattle, WA 9 years ago

you're demanding socialism

[-] 1 points by looselyhuman (3117) 9 years ago

YOU'RE! YOU + ARE. No wonder you think everything is socialism. FFS.

[-] 1 points by justda (7) from Seattle, WA 9 years ago

grammar Nazi... I fixed it, and I don't think everything is socialism, but demanding free social services like healthcare and such is a very socialistic thing to do?

[-] 1 points by looselyhuman (3117) 9 years ago

Socialism is an economy that is at least 50% state-owned monopolies and nearly every necessity is either free or heavily subsidized. Healthcare does not socialism make. Public healthcare is a hallmark of some of the most prosperous industrialized capitalist economies in the world. The free market fundamentalists will be in here in a moment crying foul but it's a fact. Mixed economies are not socialism. Medicare and Social Security are not socialism. Socialism is socialism, and it barely exists in the world anymore.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

lol, it is important to get our contractions right in the 99%.

We already have socialism, when we bailed out the banks and GM we proved the the two biggest industries rely on government investment to even exist.

Government ownership of production = socialism, and that was done by republicans so anyone republican who hates socialism should be kept on suicide-watch.

[-] 1 points by justda (7) from Seattle, WA 9 years ago

Agreed, but you cant put one single party in the firing line here... each party is to blame for the bail out. congress republican and democrat alike voted for the bail out.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

It's just republicans HATE "socialism"(which for them is equated with only authoritarians) but the democrats are kindof like, yeah, when we want to improve anything that's what we have to do.

So I think they deserve a pass on this because they are honest about it, which applies to a lot of things regarding the democrats for me.

[-] 1 points by CapitalismRulesPeriod (160) 9 years ago

so you are saying that a product(IE healthcare) is a right? It wouldn't be OK to expect the government to pay for my "Right to a vacuum cleaner" why should the government buy me healthcare.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I appreciate the question, but it is apples and oranges.

Because in the declaration of independence, where at one point everyone agreed what independence was, we have a right to life.

Because Medicine and the service of doctors is a special category of good and service, like schools and religious organizations. They need different laws and we need different rights in relation to them.

When we decide nearly everyone in the country wants something, it is the goal of a responsible and responsive government to provide it. I can't make this case for cars or vacuum cleaners, cell phones or the internet.

[-] 1 points by CapitalismRulesPeriod (160) 9 years ago

nice try, but the right to life means that one can live in freedom without the fear of death. plus this is in the declaration of independence which is in no way related to the laws of the government and constitution, third if the majority of the populous wants something, it isn't the role of the government to get it for them. the role of government is to protect its citizens, that's it. If they really want something they can go buy it. If they can't afford it then the health care companies will get less money and they will lower the price. the ridiculously high corporate tax rate prevents this however...also don't try to use that giving people heath care protects them. i mean protected from invasion,violence,and other crimes that hurt people. note that making money is not a crime.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I don't know what planet you have been living on, but here on earth health insurance has been skyrocketing in price despite peoples' inability to afford it.

I know this is not a right at present, but it is a right that I think the American people deserve.

Further, I don't think anyone should be trying to get rich off of the sickness and misery of others by making medical decisions for doctors, as our current insurance industry does.

Viruses and epidemics are just as dangerous as invasions from other nations. I've had flesh eating drug resistant bacteria before, not fun. Do you know where such bacteria gestates? Homeless people who aren't being cared for by doctors.

[-] 1 points by CapitalismRulesPeriod (160) 9 years ago

perhaps the corporate tax rate has something to do with this price.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 9 years ago

I am a dentist. Would you file me under your Healthcare amendment in that you would cap my profit margin at 10%?

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I think cavities are a health issue but braces are not. I think if doctors and dentists want to have parts of their practices be for cosmetic stuff, then those parts should not be restricted by any profit limitation.

The principle is just that people shouldn't go into the industry of saving lives and improving health so they can hold people over a barrel in order to squeeze out the highest price.


[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 9 years ago

I agree with your second point. I enjoy what I do.

The bigger issue though is access to care. Nationwide, there is a shortage of dentists. A well run dental practice has a profit margin of about 35%. If you reduce that to 10%, how much worse do you think you will make that shortage? I'm fortunate to have a good job that I like doing but I know I don't speak only for myself when I say I would like it much less if all of a sudden I'm only making about 30% of what I used to make. Becoming a health care providing is a huge commitment of time and money. I didn't earn my first pay check until I was 27 and I was accumulating debt the whole time.

A lot of health care providers are also small business owners. My partner and I employ 3 hygienists (making about $80K per year), 4 assistants (around $40K) and 2 front desk people ($48K and $62K). These are good jobs, with benefits like paid vacation and health insurance. More regulations would hurt us all.

(As a side note, dental assisting and hygiene are 2 great careers for those looking for a new one. Most programs are at a community college so you leave with minimal debt and instantly marketable skills. Most have no problem finding jobs paying what I noted above. Not everyone needs a 4 year degree)

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

What I don't understand about small business:

You make gross profit for a corporation.

But do you give yourself a salary that uses up all the net profit or do you take it as a lump sum?

All the businesses I have worked for are all really cagey about this aspect.

I think more of dental corporations than I do of dentists making a certain amount a year in salary.

I appreciate that I can talk to someone who is affected by one of my bolder ideas, it's refreshingly direct.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 9 years ago

My partner and I pay ourselves a salary out of our profits just like we do for our staff. What is left at the end of the year either goes to Uncle Sam, re-investment in the business, and we also pay out a bonus to ourselves and our staff at the end of the year. So although I have a predetermined salary, I will make more or less from year to year depending on my production.

So my partner and I actually pay taxes twice - we pay our business tax and we also pay personal income tax. Some dentists have their business set up as a sole proprietorship to get around this, but in doing so you loose the benefits of being "incorporated." The most important of which in our industry is the limited liability. Essentially, if I am sued, they can only go after my malpractice insurance coverage and the practice's assets, not my personal assets like my savings and my house. A sole proprietor can be sued and loose his/her house.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Thank you for sharing that, I have read about things like this in that book 'Rich Dad Poor Dad.'

I see how my profit capping would be a kick in the nuts.

I have never liked the choices in types of corporation, on one hand in your case I want to see your house protected from a malpractice suite but on the other hand when an entire river is poisoned I would like to see the ceo lose his big house.

On one hand I think coca cola should be paying some major taxes but on the other hand, I can totally see how you are taxed twice, then again for sales and property tax of course.

Say you were a bigger business with dozens of dentists all over the state and you had shareholders, and at the end of the year the shareholders get to divide the net profit, that is what I imagined when I said cap it at 10%. Because 6% is considered a good return on an investment and 10% is considered a healthy return right?

When you explain your situation though, I think if you do a ton of procedures you should be able to make a whole lot. Maybe in the mega corp dentistry company, I wouldn't mind if the company realized they made 11% profit and so upped the salaries of the dentist. But what if they used that 1% to up the profit of the ceo? Then what if they made 35% profit and used all 25% to pay the ceo?

I just hate this crap, I want the dentists to make the money and the prices to be low, and for investors not to be greedy, but how do you stop their tricks to make it that way?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 9 years ago

Good and bad returns are sort of relative because it depends on risk. A 3% return on a CD would be very good considering there is little to no risk. The risks involved in starting a business can vary. Look at how many restaurants you see that have a grand opening and then a year or two later are gone. Someone who invests in new restaurants would probably expect returns on the order of 20%+ on the successful ones to make up for all the ones that tank.

In the US most dental practices are still owned by the practicing dentist(s). Corporate dentistry is becoming more widespread unfortunately, although I expect it will reach a peak soon simply because most dentists would rather work for themselves and it is an industry where a single dentist can still compete with the Aspen Dental's out there.

Unfortunately, investors will always be greedy to an extent. You want to make more money, not less. It is just a matter of where ethics intersect greed. That is different for everyone. I personally feel that major corporations' board of directors need to hold CEOs more accountable. Remember, CEOs of major companies typically don't determine their salaries, they are determined by a board of directors elected by the shareholders. On the surface, it seems like it would work well. It sometimes doesn't obviously.

[-] 1 points by publicus1 (125) 9 years ago

I think you have some good ideas here, would you be interested in running as a committee person or delegate to a national convention? See here for more information:

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ and here https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home/the-steps-to-non-violent-revolution

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Yes x 1000, emailing...sent!

[-] 1 points by ownedbythebanks (3) 9 years ago

MUST OVERTURN ATT v. CONCEPCION. REPEAL THE FAA (Federal Arbitration Act) 9 U.S.C. Section 1 et seq. Supreme Court Rules in Favor of the 1% On April 27, 2011 the Supreme Court of the United States by a five to four decision decided that arbitration clauses with class action waivers in contracts of adhesion are enforceable - overturning decades of state law invalidating such contractual language. AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion This ruling basically has allowed banks and other corporations to systematically avoid the people's right to petition the judicial branch to right the injustices of these institutions. This decision and the implications of the decision should be a major focal point of the Occupy movement. I urge everyone to read Judge Breyer's dissent: "What rational lawyer would have signed on to represent the Concepcions in litigation for the possibility of fees stemming from a $30.22 claim?" $30 at a time AT&T stole from its customers. 1 person at a time, we can fix it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Mobility_v._Concepcion

[-] 1 points by publicus1 (125) 9 years ago

Guess who is one of the largest contributors to politicians in US history? ATT. Take action now and mobilize. Come to the NYC GA on 10-15 to vote on a plan of action:


[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I agree with this, how would you suggest wording the law?

[-] 1 points by ownedbythebanks (3) 9 years ago

Very easy. Congress repeals 9 USC 1 or throws an amendment to it that states that the arbitration clauses with class action waivers contained in consumer contracts of adhesion are inherently unconscionable and therefore are void and unenforceable.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I like the way you talk.

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 9 years ago

All true, but you must have a comprehensive strategy that satisfies the demands of all the people, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government to satisfy all those demands, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:




if you want to support a Presidential Candidate at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Interesting, but I do not think we can beat Goldman Sachs at it's own game. Nor do I want to become a banker. Nor does this address 2 dozen other issues that are just as critical.

Not saying you shouldn't do this though, it sounds like an ultra ethical systemic credit union that will get its money from? Goldman sachs?

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 9 years ago

If 4,600 Home Town Banks of 65,000 are formed nationwide to replace all of today's banks (which is easy if hire 12 experienced directors per bank), then Goldman Sachs dies the next day. All it takes is $500 apiece, your voice, and your choice. Remember that banking is only the beginning and the end as 40% of all Corporate Profits, while business. including all the noble demands you cited above, is everything in-between, the other 60% of all Corporate Profits.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

How would goldman sachs die the next day if we had 4600 banks of 65000? Why 65000? Of What?

[-] 1 points by atki4564 (1259) from Lake Placid, FL 9 years ago

4600 Banks of 65000 = US population of 300M; Even if it were only the Bottom 90% of Workers who formed there own banks for $500 apiece, they would have such great power over markets values that Goldman Sachs could put out of business at their discretion. As for what, read link -- the Bottom 90% of Workers as per their current Occupations.

[-] 1 points by Markmad (323) 9 years ago

Reduce the budget of all military forces to a third and close all military bases around the world- how many are there… 800? They are unconstitutional. If they still want to play generals we can allocate a small area for them play wars.

[-] 1 points by oceanweed (521) 9 years ago

end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class thats the occupy wall street message

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 9 years ago

Boston Mayor Thomas M. Menino must go

[-] 1 points by MTR (11) 9 years ago

no thats dumb

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 9 years ago

too simple, not thought out, not detailed, brainstromed bong hit you think its so important and clever but you didn't get the homework done and your "demand" meme is self defeating.

there are hundreds of "demands" threads.. why couldn't you post an addition instead of yet another...

you have some neat ideas, but they aren't polished and demands as such are a communications failure.

ultimately, you are not in a position and nobody is to brainstorm up mere demands. demands are stupid and infantile. complaints and then problem defintions and then detailed problem solutions are great. that requires time and homework to generate, not bong hits and then a brainstormed imagine yourself as emperor of the world Scrawl. this kind of thing does not help the movement, it just gives the powers that be ammo against us and prevents meaningful conversations which have depth or open source research and problem solving because you and everyone else imagines we can just skip all the steps and churn out "demands." Listen to the other people in the movement who are wisely saying NO to demands lists. I have demands, they are to the movement itself- thats where the real game is.

"Would you rather have war in this land? Do not confront me work with me...Civil unrest could very well lead to civil war... This list will prevent civil war.... Infantile, we are all infants in conciseness, which explains your poor choice of words.... You should be telling me how to make the list better not how it will never work."

? gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago

no, you need to drop making lists of demands. period. until you do open source research and science centered problem solving with other people, you have nothing to say worth repeating. your brain storming in ignorance. it sounds really really awesome to you- but for many people your tone def. Making demands is itself a sign of infantilism. period. Take responsibility and start working the problems in a deep and real way. I should not have to run through this further with you. This is a ludicrous sense of direction, it is not helping the movement and its not useful or meaningful for long term strategy in fact all it is is a giant set of red rings to give the pundits a clear target.

I don't want war. how i stop the war is to work the problems in a deep way and address the war. Not make demands. I'm an adult, not a seven year old, not a hostage taker, not a terrorist. I don't make demands, i communicate evolutionary truths. If ten thousand people follow my example we can have an evolution. If you run around like a bunch of punk alpha dominant azzholes, i promise you, all of your demands will lead to nothing but scorn and alienation.

but i can expect that we will find good solid means to that end instead of self sabotaging means to that end. Change your communication strategy. These are main political issues which you find to be critical. Now ask people to join you in reasearching them and working on these problems open source. You think you have the end product. instead you have a starting point. remove the "demands" from "demands" and replace with "these are the issues i want to discuss which seem critical to me." There you go. Thats the real process. "Demands " is itself what big Bruddah wants precisely because that makes us the ones holding wall street hostage. Domestic terrorism even when called non violent is still in essence domestic terrorism. Terrorists issue demands. Evolutionary patriots form think tanks.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Your condescension is dripping all over the place here, I hesitate to respond. Also because this rambles and is itself far from concise. I think you underestimate how much I read and research, I also note your lack of specific critique of any of my 23 items.

When you say 'I think I have an end point', I clearly wrote that I do not. When you say 'I think I'm so clever', I would prefer you stick to my words and not what you imagine the thoughts in my head to be.

I am not disregarding the other demands threads, I am contributing to as many as I can. And I have asked for suggestions here and I have really no other place besides reddit to ask for such input at this time.

I also think it is worth discussing whether a protest will make demands. Maybe it should be requests? I agree the spirit of this movement is not one of ultimatums and that there are those within the system who would like to see a lot of our desires become reality.

I also agree there is a big chance of civil war, but there is that chance any way we go except total acquiescence. I for one, however, consider the current system a constant hostile action against myself and my ideas, one in which I am in a constant prison, ruled over by illegitimate authorities under a non enforced bill of rights.

So if you want to have an evolutionary think tank that will seek some kind of harmonious alliance with people who are obviously exploiting and preying upon me, I am not interested.

I do not think we need an occupy wall street version of the heritage foundation or tides foundation, why don't we just get suits and lobby the senate for a 1% cut in....

Any other questions related to the things I actually posted?

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 9 years ago

anti intellectualism. until the movement is willing to embrace intellectual work, they will always be at the bottom end of things because the enemy does not shy away from intellectual work. Your entire shpliel and your response to me are just explanations and excuses for why you won't do any intellectual work and why you don't think its needed. Well, i'm looking at your shpliel and find i agree with most of it. but its completely detached from details, from science, from anything approaching that intellectual work. Do your homework. Then come back with a list of suggested civilization changes instead of demands.








































[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

You really enjoy condescending to me.

I find posting long lists of links to be pretentious and a waste of space. Let's all look at what you know!

So you recommend I prove what I think is correct with science? Prove the concept of separation and church of state with science then see who reads that on this forum.

The way you are talking, no one should contribute ideas unless they pass some sort of test of yours, maybe a systems theory economics test? I don't think percentages would improve my case here and I am not writing a thesis and I am not going to subjugate myself to your higher mind until I pass whatever intellectual hurdle you set for me.

I do agree that we need an article V convention and I have held this belief for at least 10 years. I believe the general assembly of OWS is headed that direction and my suggestion of amendments is intended to move the discussion in that direction.

And I've read frijtof capra, so stop making assumptions about what I know and do not know especially if you make no specific criticisms of my 23 points.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 9 years ago

you really enjoy wasting my time. the links are the conversations people need to get to, instead of the noise. Straw man arguments aren't impressing me. The problem is ignorance. people need to learn. otherwise the movement fails.

Your lack of doing homework is a fine example. nobody is going to take an off of the top of your head screed seriously. But if you had three lines and then three links and then three lines and then three links, to prove each point, you would have made something a hundred times more effective and useful.

Do the research. take the time. Quit wasting my time and everyone elses time with shit you thought up off the top of your head aftr bong rips.

the corporate oligarchy spends two weeks and twenty people doing real intellectual work to write its screeds.

Thats why they are winning and people like you don't get paid enough attention.

I'm not trying to be mean to you in a jerk way. I'm trying to push whatever buttons it takes to get you to bring it up ten notches.

in peace and solidarity then...


[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Ive been working on this list for years. I decided to start writing it in this form a week ago and finished it last night. I do not use a bong and I submitted the final draft while I was at work, where I am never inebriated in any way.

Rereading them, I find them concise and clear. I don't see how many of these things could even be proven with links, nor do I think anyone else has even proposed something like my #7, to make corporations use the same name all of the time, in all countries, in all subsidiaries. Or my demand that the bad 5 justices be removed, who would overrule anything we do anyway.

Anyone who doesn't know about subsidiaries, offshoring, banking in the bahamas by now and who doesn't see how a business could use naming tricks to evade any other regulation we make, is just being dense.

I really have to disagree with you, I don't think proposals like my 23 need to be couched in academic/legal language, I think they need to be simple for everyone to understand. You are right that wall street will pay academics to write complicated disproofs of whatever we do, I think if we engage them like that we will not be able to prove anything, as happens with global climate change at the moment. The more complicated the law the more loopholes there will be. We will never win on the loophole front.

If the people are going to have rights, they should be able to understand them, this is what I have always loved about the bill of rights. In 1775 no one had to be shown a graph of science to be convinced that they didn't want any more soldiers quartered in their homes.

Likewise I don't think anyone needs to be told that driving to work is work and we deserve to be compensated for it, just like truckers are paid for their driving.

As for how much attention I'm getting, I am really excited about this thread, I just had a suggestion for the 24th up above and I'm adding that one! Thanks ownedbythebanks!

And you know, give me a week and I'll write essays for all of these with all your evidence and science.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 9 years ago

i'd like to see that. i'd also like to see links for more information for each item.

[-] 1 points by NintyNiner (93) 9 years ago

It takes two to screw us! Politicians to hold us down, so then the Corporations can do the screwing!!! Politicians need better rules to follow to prevent lobbying! We tax payers should also fund important elections, so the best person wins and not the one with the most money!!! The movement needs at least these 2 demands!!! Politicians need to be fair and keep it balanced for all and not start class warfare! They all need fired so we can start over but next time they work for everyone and not favor one group over another. Write it down and pass the word!!!

[-] 1 points by Cindy (197) 9 years ago

Yes, but, Health care and Education should be non-profit. We cannot continue to fund Depts. in the government that have no voice. Dept of Education is piss poor. There are others.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I think limited profit vs. non-profit is nit-picking at this point, non-profit is still quite profitable if the board of directors get huge salaries. It's in the details of the non-profit charter. I think we're close enough agreed for where things are at Cindy, you're ok with me.

[-] 1 points by MisterE (9) 9 years ago

I second this motion. Also consider the average hourly wadge of teachers which is $33-40 per hour.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I can see the argument for a completely non profit health and education sector, but what about private hospitals and private schools, I don't want to nationalize those. That would be a really, really, really large expansion of government that would be really really difficult to keep from fraud. Also the government takes liability for everything.

I think the profit motive works, I just don't want to be exploited by excessive margins going to profit when they could be, you know, teaching me something or saving my life.

[-] 1 points by Cindy (197) 9 years ago

non-profit doesn't mean government run.

[-] 1 points by realcarrera (53) 9 years ago

C'mon man. This is too delightful. Think more aggressively.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

Don't overlook the rest below.

Also, I don't understand the use of 'delightful' in this context, I detect sarcasm. Maybe you meant 'fanciful?'

[-] 1 points by realcarrera (53) 9 years ago

Yes it's sarcasm but I don't mean it to be offensive. It'a good plan, I agree but it needs to be less complacent with Wall St.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

What is a more radical change you would like to see from wall street than confiscating Goldman Sachs? Or are you hitting me with the sarcasm again?

[-] 1 points by WildWeasel (32) 9 years ago

Bravo! I completely agree. This is a complex problem. And it wasn't created by the waiters, cab drivers, mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, and school teachers.

There is a pervasive economic injustice that has swept through America. Corporations have lost their way. Big business has stumbled. Cutting health care benefits and retirement benefits will create a sick and homeless society if this pattern is carried to its logical conclusion.

The bankers, hedge fund managers, and slick corporate executives may have some of the "smartest guys in the room" over the last couple decades. But it has also had some of the most unethical.!!!!

Student loans should not be a profit center for loan sharks!

How did Halliburton -- a Texas oil field service company (and a person according to our Supreme Court) -- get over $27 Billion dollars in No-Bid federal contracts to Feed (?) our troops? Moreover, How could this "person" then have the audacity and gall to move its corporate headquarters to Dubai?? Dubai??

This Blog hits the mark. A good start on a list of demands.

  1. Restore Glass-Steagall. It is about time!!

  2. Repackaged Debt Ban. Right on.

  3. Investment Tax Law. Yes!

  4. Anti-Usury laws. Excellent. We had anti-usury laws in this country for ever. What happened??? Bring them back.

  5. Health Care is absolutely a right. Not even debatable. The health care law President Obama signed into law is OK. I would have preferred a single payer system. Or even a government run system. Everyone is taxed. Everyone is covered. Not covered would be boob jobs and tummy tucks.

[-] 1 points by George16 (6) 9 years ago

I am sick and tired of our government supporting lending over supporting increased earnings for our working class. Borrowing money to pay for things we need only decreases our spending power. The bank bail out was simply a solution to neglect the real problem. People don't need to borrow money to live, they need to earn money to live.

[-] 1 points by thumper (5) 9 years ago
  1. I agree that the gov't should be not only restricted from borrowing from SS but should have to pay back everything they have stollen so far. They should also cease giving this money for things it was never intended for.
  2. Disagree. These are commodities and why shouldn't those who take the risk on of granting these loans profit from them? The biggest problem that I saw was that so many of them were guaranteed by the government which left the actual person owing the money pretty much off the hook and left the taxpayer responsible for paying back the loan. Don't want to have your mortgate or student loan sold, don't take one out. Do you have any idea how many student loans where defaulted on, even when the economy was doing ok? I have to say that it makes those in their mid-20's a really bad credit risk.
  3. Disagree. The amount of interest is directly related to the risk of the loan. Can you ABSOLUTELY assure the entity granting the loan that they will ALWAYS get paid back and that the payments will ALWAYS be on time? Until that happens I can't agree with you.
  4. Disagree. Healthcare can and should not be a right for all Americans until they are first held responsible and personally take care of their health. That won't happen.
  5. Disagree mostly. I would agree that we can fund education but given the same model as in Germany. First, I'm not a big advocate of pre-school. Children of that age should be at home with a parent. They are not "social" at that age. That doesn't happen until around the age of 5. As in Germany, in order for a student to progress on certain educational "tracks" they need to pass tests given at specific stages of their education. Only those that pass and are on university tracks are able to have their education paid for. How many kids in the U.S. completely blow money in college because they view it as party time? Again, it's all a matter of responsibility. Sports are, in my view, a good thing. It teaches one leadership and how to work as a functioning member of a team. That's a good thing in my book. Not much of a fan of professional sports, though, nor am I an advocate of giving college scholarships to athletes. Give it to someone who actually has a brain and will eventually put the education to good use.
[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

5 The plan here does not hinge on mandatory preschool. Funding education through college does not mean everyone will be admitted to college/university, it will only mean that those accepted will always be able to afford it. In the regard of testing to get through to the next level of education, I think Germany's system is a good model to follow. Separating education money from inter-collegiate/inter-school sports money is what I am talking about, not that there won't be sports programs at schools.

[-] 1 points by thumper (5) 9 years ago

Agreed 100%

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

4 What you are saying is that people who choose to eat poorly and not exercise must be punished by making it more difficult for them to see doctors. If you care about your fellow citizens, you would want them to see a doctor more, not less. Those people are punished enough by shorter life spans and lower priority on organ recipient lists, etc. I would not be opposed to a higher rate of payment into the national health plan if one was outside of certain thresholds, that would give doctors some leverage to motivate unhealthy people.

[-] 1 points by thumper (5) 9 years ago

No, that's not what I said. I said it was not a right as too many do not take personal responsibility for it themselves. If they don't care why should I? The care taking of me starts with me and nobody else.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

I think it is healthy and sane to care for the health of every citizen if not every human being.

Not all of the arguments for universal health care are altruistic however, other countries with national health care spend a lot less money on it.

I am a little soft on it being manditory, like social security, maybe you should be able to opt out of national health insurance? I don't like forcing people to care for others.

[-] 1 points by thumper (5) 9 years ago

Our society has become much too dependent on government to care for others. Parents don't care for their children any longer and adult children don't care for their parents any longer. It seems as if they feel it's always up to somebody else. If family can't look to their own for help why is it always up to someone else. I can understand if there simply isn't any other family but too often that is not the case.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

"If family can't look to their own for help why is it always up to someone else."

Well parakeets aren't going to help them out so I guess you would like to let them rot? And spread their diseases to you when you see them at the supermarket?

Another angle is that everyone's health does have an affect on everyone else.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

3 Anyone who wants to be changing interest rates and piling fees on people who are having problems is a predator. It is illogical to think that someone who is having trouble paying will have less trouble paying once the interest rate doubles and they get a dozen late fees. Our society should not kick people while they were down. Future loans to the same individuals can always have higher interest rates but the lender cannot ever be isolated from risk. If they can't take the risk, they shouldn't be in the loan business.

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

2 I have the right to know who I owe money to and the buyer of investments has a right to know all the details of the loan. How can the debtor's privacy and the investor's interest be protected? The problem was not the government guarantee but that the ratings agencies were able to get away with saying cdo's that were bad were good. Privacy and/or fraud will always plague these. Aggregating debt as a product is just a bad idea. There are plenty of investments already and these kind did just crash the economy.

[-] 1 points by thumper (5) 9 years ago

My mortgage has changed companies several times and the fixed rate has never changed. That's not to say that the escrow hasn't changed because our property taxes keep going up. The mortgages that crashed the economy were the ones that were high risk and were guaranteed by Freddie and Fannie. Good ol' Barney lied to us about their solvency. And where is that fat, lying piece of crap. Same place. Were in a world of hurt when the fraud perpetrators are supposed to look out for us. Why aren't y'all protesting at the White House where themlies start?

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago


[-] 1 points by aswewalk (104) 9 years ago

Great that you're looking at Glass-Steagal and other corporate restrictions. Please just keep this in mind as you debate goals and demands: http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-we-win-one-perspective-on-where-we-go-from-her/

[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

The Wealth Transfer Amendment

  1. All wealth transfers into and out of the country must be recorded. All bank accounts must be reported as if they were U.S. bank accounts. Transfers into and out of the country will be untaxed.

The Business Name Amendment

  1. American corporations must operate by the same name in all countries. Corporations from other countries must operate by the same name in the united states.

The Abolition and Confiscation of Goldman-Sachs Law

  1. Goldman Sachs has collapsed the economy of a nation and perhaps a continent. We are purposing their assets towards the payment of Greek debt. That which remains will absolve all currently outstanding American student loans.

The Journalism Amendment

  1. Presenting opinion as news, presenting propaganda as news, or in any other way pretending to be a journalist or source of news will be punishable by a 5 year ban from being a journalist and confiscation of all production equipment and assets. All news businesses in the united states must be owned by Americans with 100% American shareholders. Businesses are limited to owning only one news brand.

The Five New Justices Amendment

  1. The "justices" who voted for citizens united must step down from the supreme court. The codification of plutacracy is not justice. Their inability to recognize this delegitimizes their tenures under both natural law and the American spirit.

The New Congress Amendment

  1. The senate and electoral college is abolished. Instant runoff voting and proprotional representation will be implemented for all congressinal elections and the majority party will elect the executive branch which will remain in power until a vote of no confidence brings them down.

The Protection of Foreign Workers Law

  1. The right to import good into the United States requires surprise inspection rights of any and all related production facilities. A corps of international inspectors(regulators) will be created to surprise inspect facilities who apply to import goods. They will publicize their new findings annually.
[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

The Political Party Amendment

  1. The registration of a political party shall be free and require only 1000 signatures. All political parties will have the right to run a candidate in all and any national, state and local election.

The Public Food Amendment

  1. Food production facilities will be open to the public. Proof of purchase of food will be license to tour the food production facilities freely with recording equipment. Secret ingredients are banned from all products sold to the public.

The Public Regulator Amendment

  1. Regulators, government employeees and government representatives, including the aforementioned Foreign Worker Protection Corps and the Securities Exchange Commission, will be prevented from working for any company they have regulated for 5 years from the end of their time employed as a regulator. Regulators convicted of accepting bribes will be sentenced to mandatory life in prison. Foreign companies convicted of bribing or attempting to bribe American regulators will be banned and their U.S. holdings will be confiscated. All confiscations will go to support the mental health treatment of the homeless and unemployment benefits.
[-] 1 points by mindhawk (175) from Jefferson City, MO 9 years ago

The Credit Number Law

  1. Social Security Numbers are restricted to use by individuals and the Social Security Agency. The United States Credit Bureau will provide credit numbers and credit ratings on a scale of 100. Credit ratings will be private information only available on proof of financial interaction with a given credit number. Publicizing a citizen's credit information will carry a 5 year prison penalty and forfeiture of all business assets of any associated business.

The Unemployed Rights Law

  1. I. If you have a job for one year, 75% for 6 months, 50% for 1 year, 25% for thereafter II. If you have a job for less than a year, 75% for 3 months, 50% for 6 months, 25% for 1 year III. This right is forfeit if you quit, were warned for tardiness 5 times, or were unable to do the job within the first 3 months. IV. This right is forfeit if you do not apply for at minimum 3 opportunities a week.

The Diet Amendment

  1. It is the inherent right of any American to purchase and ingest whatever he or she so chooses once they are of the age of 18. It is the inherent right of all Americans to possess and cultivate any food, medicine, or ingestible substance. All ingredients on all food, medicine, or otherwise ingestible substance shall be clearly labelled under penalty of five years in prison and confiscation of all assets of affiliated businesses. All literature and advertisement about food, medicine, or ingestible products which are bought or sold shall be honest under penalty of five years in prison and confiscation of all assets of affiliated businesses.

The New Immigration Law

  1. All current undocumented immigrants are given amnesty and a working visa. Three years of steady work entitle one to take the citizenship test. Mexico will be offered commonwealth status in the united states with the possibility of eventual statehood. If unemployed for 6 months, the visa will be revoked. Children born of undocumented parents or parents holding a work visa will not be granted citizenshipo unless the parents attain it. Possessors of work visas wil l not be taxed for social security but will be taxed for their health insurance.

The New Peace

  1. The United States Military will now be available for Humanitarian and Peacekeeping Missions anywhere in the world as determined by the United Nations. The United States Military will remove all current bases from other countries. The United States will Disarm all but 20 of its nuclear weapons and will no longer be a part of any strategy of mutually assured destruction.

The Local Communication and Utility Amendment

  1. There shall be no law prohibiting municipality ownership of any utility or communication infrastructure. Municipalities, states and the United States Congress have the inherent right to purchase their infrastructure at the cost of materials plus installation plus 10 percent profit.

The Commuting Amendment

  1. Commuting is work and shall be paid for in full by the employer. All energy, vehicle and time costs of transporting workers to work will be the responsibility of the employer.

The Medical Bill of Rights 23. I. All records must be available to all medical locations but kept private between an individual and the caregiver. All records must be available in clear form to the patient.
II. All medical decisions must be made by a doctor. Major risks and expenditures must be reviewed by multiple doctors. III. No business will make more than 10% profit annually. Any further profits will go into the national health insurance fund.
IV. A patient has the right to suicide. V. A patient has the right to hold their caregiver accountable for all harm done.
VI. There shall be no monetary limit set upon the value of human life. VII. Private insurance companies assets and accounts will be appropriated for the national health insurance fund.

In the interest of the common good, the American spirit and the future of human life on the planet Earth,