Forum Post: One thing you should read before you vote on any demands --- this could make all the difference people
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 11:46 p.m. EST by therising
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This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Hey folks. I completely understand the urge to make demands. Believe me, I was once clamoring for this too. But you know what? It's too early. Our movement has matured enough for us to make demands. Demands at this juncture will only serve to divide us. And it's division that has allowed the tiny minority of plutocrats (the 1%) to rule over the 99% for so long.
I think (and so do many many others) that we should all take a deep breath and realize what this movement is about. If we focus on what we have in common right now we can build strength. Then, later once we've gotten to know each other, learned from each other and realized we're all in it together, we can go to the next stage. And if we approach it this way, we'll be making DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness.
I'm being very serious now.
The official statements of goals and the widespread powerful direct non-violent action that will take place are, relatively speaking, the "easy" part, hence our desire to jump to that second step.
The hard part is right now, building the constituency of the 99%. In order to do that, we have to take some time and let the fruit ripen before we pick it. There's no need to rush or worry. Look how far we've come so far with no official demands and no official leaders. Let's focus right now on discussing what we have in common rather than dividing ourselves with demands.
Once we, the 99%, realize all we have in common, we'll awaken to the absurdity that we've allowed the 1% to rule us despite the fact that we really have all the power. It will take time for that epiphany to percolate around the nation. Give that a little time. Then we'll be able to make decisions rather than demands. Then it will be the plutocrats who are in the weak position. If we pick the fruit too soon and make official demands and designate official leaders, they'll pigeon hole us and take us down Rove style. If, on the other hand, we allow the fruit to ripen, we'll be unstoppable.
There's nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come. The goals/demands are just details. The idea whose time has come is the recognition that we have more in common than we think. We must focus on and nurture that revelation. Once that penetrates our consciousness collectively, we will find our voice...and we will sing. Oh how we'll sing.
I'm a simple farmer/gardener from Alabama and the wife of a Union Millwright. Only corporate farms pick fruit before its ripe and then they ripen it by putting it in a room with different gasses, depending on what and where it is shipped. It ruins the taste, and frankly I’m concerned about the later health effects. Hence with giving the demands to the media/government. Now a fella below said this was not a good metaphor, well he don't know nothing about farming! They will pick you apart like crows on a fence line; they are already waiting to do it. Where do you think their money comes from? Do you really think that the media is fair, just, reporting that shows both sides of the issues?? Come on now... Most of you have been to college, you should know better by now who owns what. Fox is a perfect example of bias reporting. I'm proud of you folks!! You keep at it. Just keep it peaceful, that way they cannot say you are doing any "wrong". Personally, I plan on joining my local movement. Power to the people, y'all!
Good post. Personally, I've signed on with the "Get Money Out" crowd.
"if we approach it this way, we'll be making DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness" That right there sums up exactly why we wait. Great point.
Demands are made to those who have power to make decisions. Agreed that this movement is better served by building a vision of an alternative structure of power, and then realizing that vision, than by taking demands to Congress, Bank of America, or any other expression of the current, corrupted structure.
Cool. Let's spread the word. The following is also very encouraging! http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-to-the-nyc-general-assembly-on-10-15-12-to-st/
They want us to give demands NOW because specific demands hurt movement growth.
Yes. I agree. The 1% can't WAIT for us to roll out something official so they can use tried and true methods to tear us down by discrediting and dividing us.
Sadly, I couldn't agree more. Why allow the status quo to pressure you into anything right now? Maybe they're attempting to promote an environment within the movement that could foster dissension.
Oh, I think the 1% and their minions would absolutely LOVE for us to pick the fruit before it's ripe. They are starting to see what this could become if it has more time to develop. They are totally frustrated that try don't yet have an official leader or official list of demands to discredit. They don't know what to do with an organic authentic people's movement. This is very serious for them. The country clubs and board rooms are full of conversation. Most of it centers around their greatest hope of all: violence. The 1% are just itching for violence because they know what to do with that.
Right now they're just befuddled. Media starting to warm up to the story. Head of fed, vice president, president, numerous congressional leaders all expressing sympathy for the movement. They are starting to feel like the jig is up. Us getting violent is their best hope. And don't think they won't send people in who will attempt to provoke violence. We have to be ready for that. We have to practice so it becomes a reflex. As soon as a provocateur starts inciting violence during a march or protest, we should all sit down and say "We are non-violent. He is not a part of our group." Then they'll just look silly on the nightly news and there will be even more sympathy for the movement in living rooms across the nation.
ows is about the people
how can ows have consensus without first listening to the people? how can ows listen to the people without giving everyone time to join ows? let's give everyone time to join ows. when everyone has joined ows, then ows can listen to the people and have consensus
That's a great way to say it. I completely agree.
I think we need to stay unified, it's more important than demands right now. However, I still encourage people to speak their mind- their concerns and why they've come to protest. Individual stories are interesting enough to get news time- some will try to quash the movement by claiming protesters are unorganized and stupid and then limiting news coverage over a course of time until we disappear.
I agree. The more we talk about our ideas with an open mind. The more we discover we have in common.
I'm a simple farmer/gardener from Alabama and the wife of a Union Millwright. Only corporate farms pick fruit before its ripe and then they ripen it by putting it in a room with different gasses, depending on what and where it is shipped. It ruins the taste, and frankly I’m concerned about the later health effects. Hence with giving the demands to the media/government. Now a fella below said this was not a good metaphor, well he don't know nothing about farming! They will pick you apart like crows on a fence line; they are already waiting to do it. Where do you think their money comes from? Do you really think that the media is fair, just, reporting that shows both sides of the issues?? Come on now... Most of you have been to college, you should know better by now who owns what. Fox is a perfect example of bias reporting. I'm proud of you folks!! You keep at it. Just keep it peaceful, that way they cannot say you are doing any "wrong". Personally, I plan on joining my local movement. Power to the people, y'all!
Right on!
How right! So much right! The 1% pay professionals (journalist, lawers, politicians, CEOs, etc...) to write, formulate and diffuse demands. Just wait for these guys to understand they belong to the 99% and write, formulate and diffuse our demand, the best way it could be. By then, let's see how life could be if these yet-to-be-done demands where already realized.
I think the future is starting to look very bright!
I am amased at how Occupy works and would like to have your input on the movement to understaqnd it better. Can you answer 10 questions, please. I am happy to send results if you are interested. Thank you! http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Q3NF7QB
My take on it is that there is extreme power in questions. Questions tend to open up possibilities while conversely, answers tend to close down possibilities. Keep asking big questions...such as:
Do we need to continue with a representative republic model when more direct democracy is now technologically feasible? and;
Do we still want to allow corporations to exist since they do not seem to be benefiting society nearly as much as themselves? and;
Should we make big adjustments to how Wall Street does business like taxing all transactions, or should we shut it down entirely?
Unanswered big questions scare the crap out of the 1%. Do not rush towards answers just yet, rather promote the discussions generated by the big questions as far and wide as you can. Do not be lured into playing their game. Come up with other fundamental type questions. Ask them, and keep asking them.
This is a moment in history when societal change is possible. Resist the usual...promote the heretofore unthinkable.
I agree 100%. We should all be discussing lists of questions rathe than demands at this juncture so we can begin to imagine what's possible.
I find this vague and I don't like the 'picking fruit' metaphor for accomplishing the movement's goals. I like the words converge, focus, bring to bear are words I would like to describe what our culmination might be.
I do however like the percolate metaphor and have used it myself in the past in this context, the water has begun to boil over but we're not at full boil.
I think it is constructive and appropriate to be working on agreeing on goals and demands. 'Getting to know each other' is good and revolutionary in that people are actually seeing each other in ways that transcend the silent atomized 'at-arms-length' nature of society typical of what things are like when you ride public transportation, but it's not the momentum.
Great points
When it's time though, we need to have a LIST of demands... not just "a demand." THERE ARE MANY VALID ISSUES that have nothing to do with party politics or division and are simply common threads representing the right thing to do. (Not right vs. left. Right vs. wrong.)
I agree with you. Let's just make sure it's a list the 99% can unite around rather than a list that will divide us. Seriously. That and non-violence are the two keys to success here.
Do you happen to be in NYC?
Not at the moment but I've spent some time in Zuccotti park with the group, dropped off some supplies etc. I was struck at how positive the vibe is. We are so fortunate to have such a wise and clear headed gathering of people occupying the park. It is heartening to see and feel and I encourage anyone who has not done so to go there, participate and see/feel it for themselves. I'm working on getting back up there very soon to spend some quality time.
I completely agree. It is when WE ready. Not when they "demand" the demands.
I totally agree with you, the movement is inchoate. I would be so interested in exploring a "fourth branch" of government that is the Populist Wing, the Direct Assembly, something in which, basically, new legislation would need to be crowd sourced before proceeding onto the president's desk, or approval to get out of committee.... but when I try to work out the thought-experiment, honestly, it's pie in the sky, the potential for abuse is too high. I can't make it structurally work in my head. I dunno, just a thought.
I agree with you in part. I think we need to keep growing and build our communication network, but I think one goal/demand we can promote is "END CORRUPTION". It's something all of us can get behind, whether we are liberal or conservative. It's something that can even sway a Libertarian to get along with a communist.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/who-are-we/
We are open to all ideas.
We are the ideas.
We have no leaders.
We are the leaders.
We stand united.
We stand as a voice of the people.
We hope for a constitutional government.
We hope for a sustainable economy.
We hope you will join us if you have similar interests.
I totally agree with this. Lets pause and take this opportunity to mobilize as many people as humanly possible. This is achieved by making an open Forum, over an extended period of time, for everyone to join and contribute. Lets open the book and actually read it before we close it. There is still a lot of people that want this change, but who are afraid of the consequences. Lets give these people space to make their own demands. Perhaps the best Ideas are still out there unshared. There is no need to give in to all those who people who demand to know where we stand in order to take us serious. This is only an attempt to shake our core. Not many of us are comfortable presented with the unknown. Especially when challenged.
But if you, like me, can feel in your heart that this is right, my appeal to you is this: LETS DARE TO BE PATIENT.
Bjaffe, Copenhagen Denmark
Great ideas and a great way to say it.
"What do we want?" "NOT THIS!" "When do we want it?" "YEAH!"
I just don't think this is any way to rally support.
Look around. I was just waltzing around the financial district, taking a tour of the Wall St. area. There were more people out on the street, totally unconcerned with you, than there were at the park. Do you know why so many people - myself included - can't take this movement seriously? Why is Jon Stewart making fun of you? Because there is no movement, here. There's no direction. "We're all unhappy about something vaguely undefined" is not motivating anyone to rally to your banner.
The world is watching and waiting for you to define what you're unhappy about, and how you want to change it. Not just you, but the 99%. What is the 99% unhappy about? It's not greenhouse gases - maybe 50% is unhappy about that. It's not the Fed - maybe 50%, but honestly most people have no idea what the Fed does. It's not pot - maybe 66% are unhappy about that, but honestly most of y'all are going to smoke your pot anyway, so it's not that big a deal.*
So what is the whole 99% unhappy about?
I feel like we have that answer, we know what the 99% has in common.
*statistics above are pulled out of my butt. But you know what I mean.
You've just sort of made my point by the way. You acknowledged that most demands will divide. I'm all for the rallying cry that units the 99%. Bring it on man! Seriously!
You have me on the edge of my seat. What does the 99% have in common?........... (I'm not at all doubting it's possible to define, I'm just eager to hear someone define it :). I'm asking this question sincerely.
Our democracy is diminished by money in the political system. Our voices are not heard in our government. 1% buys their representation, 99% are left with the scraps.
Very simple solution to this problem. - publicly funded campaigns and elections. We need to change the political system and get the monied corruption out.
When we ALL have fair and equal representation again, WE can FIX all the other problems! With a true democracy again, this country will soar!
That's exactly what's happening in a way. Check this out http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-to-the-nyc-general-assembly-on-10-15-12-to-st/
I won't believe any supposed official announcement until it hits the "News' tab.
I agree with you. That's a good way to approach it. And the test of any list of demands is: Does it unify us or divide us. A good list will be one that the 99% feels is "our list".
Agreed! We wait for the News tab.
Beautiful.
We are all complaining that the 1% controls the quality of life, and we are looking to the government. But when we look at the government, we recognize that they respond to the 1%.
Isn't that the problem here?
Look on the forums. People say, "I vote, but my voice isn't heard," or even worse, "I don't even vote anymore." We look at policy and think, "this isn't in the public interest." If we take a moment to think, "who is this legislation protecting," we come back to the 1%.
The 1% has the money that funds the permanent campaigns. The permanent campaigns are the modern political paradigm. We can't just take the money - sorry, but we are not 99% communists. We can't stop the permanent campaign - our public servants SHOULD always be under the microscope.
But we can cut the money out from the permanent campaigns.
Get the money out of governance. Isn't that what we all have in common?
Support campaign finance reform. Support abolishing corporate personhood. Support disclosure of finances of members of Congress. Support Congressional term limits. This is what is keeping the 99% out; we can't pay to play. But democracy was never about money. We have this in common, it's philosophically sound, and it is urgent for the 99%. We don't need to abolish corporations - we like our computers, our iPads, our cell phones, our jeans. But we can't have corporations buying policy. Demos means the people. Our government needs to respond to us.
This!
Well said!
I think definition will come. Give it time; the Tea Party was still pretty nebulous when it was a month old, and they still don't all characterize themselves as a unified "party", per se. The message will coalesce, and I think Occupy will solidify into something more coherent and organized. Its just that right now we're still in that Big Bang expansion where everything is still flying all over the place.
I like that part. It's the best part. We shouldn't contain it by defining demands and leaders. If this is the equivalent of the big bang, let's let the universe of the consciousness expand a little bit.
We're only strong as long as we're out there. It's going to get cold. We need to have something definite so that when we go inside we will still be talking about our desires for fixing our government.
I hear you loud and clear. What I'm suggesting along with many others is that those things we focus on when we come in doors should be things that the entire 99% can get behind.
That should be the ultimate test. If it's divisive or people don't feel ownership, this will fall on its face and we'll be just another fringe group. I don't want that. And I'm sure you don't either. We need middle America saying "we" instead of "them". Every platform point, every assembly discussion should take place with that "we" instead of "them" ownership principle in mind. As soon as we start dividing ourselves up with divisive demands, the 1% will be chucking. I've worked on Capitol Hill and heard that chuckling. I've spent time dealing with large corporations and heard that chuckling. I have friends who've worked in the big banks and they heard that chuckling. Let's not give them a reason to chuckle. This is a chess match and there's no reason to rush.
I have an idea that may help could you check out nationalday911.org and see what you think?
I understand what you are saying,however #ows hasn't made any demands because they are not a political party . #ows did write a DECLARTION on Wed. Oct 5,2011. It was read on the Kieth Obermann Current TV show.
What does being a party have to do with making demands? Do you have the link to this declaration?
I hear you but take a look across this forum. And look at the hundreds of news stories and interviews. We are just days or weeks from some group or another, some assembly or another announcing an official list of demands and a spokesperson. The current environment is like a popcorn popper. The bottom of the pan is greased up and getting hot (that's the media). And there are tons of unpopped popcorn kernels in the pan (that's us, those that aren't in the 1%). Something's going to pop if we the 99% don't turn down the heat. We need to take a deep breath and focus on what connects us rather than allowing ourselves to be divided yet again. In this case, sadly, we'd be dividing ourselves and diffusing our source of power, the unification of the 99%.
Ive attended the occupydc demonstrations since last thursday. Very organized. The best thing to do is attend the demonstrations. #ows has assemblys everyday. Yoou are allowed to voice your opinions. There is a human microphone. Believe me when I say this is working and We need your help. See Ya soon!
Yes but if you are not in New York, is what you say in YOUR state going to be included? What if your state comes up with different declarations? Are you now in conflict with New York? The ideas should be voted on online. But then again there are a lot of gate crashers.
Exactly. Get out there and meet Your fellow man. Take a debate with him and watch the both of You grow in mutual understanding. It´s heartwarming and that will last You through the winter.
I read today that occupy Denver has officially voted on a list of demands based on something from AIM (American Indian Movement) related to native peoples. More of this can't be far behind at occupy sites around the country. And it also won't be long before people in the movement and the press start using the term "official leader" and "official demands". This is what concerns me. It will deflate the momentum. The 1% can't wait for us to stop being a moving target. They can't wait for us to make ourselves stationary target. They know how to handle that and the press will be their accomplices. We are so close to winning support of middle America. Let's not blow it by jumping the gun and picking the fruit when it's immature. It will only divide us yet again and make us easy pickens.
Stand Together.
I hope to get Occupy Raleigh to address Ballot Access
You speak the absolute truth we need to unify and be on message if we are to have true Solidarity.
Please help spread this link so we can get this message out and get people discussing this approach. I realize how strong the magnetic pull towards action is. I've been chomping at the bit my whole life for this. But that is exactly why I don't want us to blow it and push too soon.
Man, that's what she said.
...ahem.
I like your position. I think Occupy will figure itself out organically. We've got so many people and opinions- and that's all good, but you're right about the popcorn. You can't take it out before its done poppin'.
Right on :)
Agreed :) Thank goodness another voice of sanity. The vast majority of the American public is not behind us...yet. It is ill-advised to enter into an uphill fight in a flawed political system before that is so. It is equally unwise to be formulating demands. Each new demand is an opportunity for a potential ally to dismiss us as not representing their perceived interest. The only thing that the 99% will be able to unify behind during this period of distortion and misrepresentation is the belief that, in this country, people have the right to peacefully assemble and speak their minds. This is the totality of what should be done. This act alone is intolerable to the 1% and their functionaries. It is more than enough to create the violent repression that will bring new individuals into the movement. Civil disobedience beyond this simple scope is premature. This is a long fight, breaking the law and inconveniencing the 99% will not create empathy. Disobedience should only be exercised to the extent necessary to defend our right to freedom of assembly. I demand only to exercise my right to peacefully assemble in a public and accessible location and to voice my dissent. Everything else is incidental.
And what people need to realize is that there WILL be a day for additional civil disobedience. Just not now when the fruit isn't yet ripe. Also, we must really repeat over and over the mantra of non-violence. Believe me, the 1% in the board rooms and country clubs are all uttering these three sentences over and over and over again: "Don't worry. They'll trip up and get violent and thence have them. We can easily paint them as thugs and middle America will turn away."
We can't let that happen. We have to expect that the 1% will send in provocateurs to incite violence. We must train for this. We have to practice for it every day so our snap reaction to such an event is to sit quickly down onto the ground and say "We are non-violent. This person is not one of us." Then this person will look foolish in front of the TV cameras.
I totally agree. The vast majority of the American public is not behind us yet. But the potential is DEFINITELY there.
Good tactical advice Rising. Middle America will join when they start seeing that their first amendment freedoms don't exist. They sense they want to be with us. The spin machine is in overdrive though, the key is not to alienate them before they reach us.
That is so true. We really run the risk of alienating them. And this would be tragic because the momentum is in our favor right now. Sympathy for the movement is growing. If we refrain from engaging in divisive activity the virtuous cycle of this growing momentum will transform our emerging movement into a full scale revolution. And the beautiful part is that it's a revolution of understanding. The understanding is spreading like wildfire.... The understanding that it's ridiculous for 99% majority to let 1% minority of plutocrats exploit them. And the understanding that we the 99% have more things in common than we have separating us.
The 1% have spread fear and capitalized on our weakness for division. But we are shedding our fear and we are turning away from divisiveness. Nothing can stop us if we remain non-violent and work hard to be inclusive and find common ground. We are the 99%. The idea is growing in us, the idea whose time has come.
Middle America will join when they understand the message. Many of those folks still believe they got a shot at making it big on wall street. But many of them MAY have had difficulty trying to run a candidate that was not Republican or Democrat. Many of them probably know that the scales are unbalanced with how much money can be put into political campaigns so those items should all be put together in ONE amendment. That way they don't seem like a large list but ONE thing which includes several steps. The Equal Access Amendment knocks four items off the demands list. The others should be grouped into some kind of banking law.
OK - I hear you and as an individual I'm supportive of some of your demands. What I don't support is the timing implied...My sense is that you're saying this has to happen pretty soon, like in the next month, tying this up in a nice package (please correct me if I'm wrong). What I'm saying is that if we doing that, middle America will say "that occupy wall street group proposed amendment / demands.". What I'd rather them say (and I'm sure you would too) is "Hey look. Those are OUR GOALS/DEMANDS being listed on national television, front page of papers, homepage of big news organizations.". We the people. We.
I'm saying that I think we should get some definite issues talked about in the public forum, before the group fizzles out. Do you think they will last a month? We need access to our elections to control the government and the finances. We need access to our Natural Resources to work on food and energy and We need healthcare. If we have those things we could work toward the rest. Now if OWS feels we can get it all now that's great, but I don't see them asking for Ballot Access which is fundamental to participate in elections.
I think that a lot of people have been waiting for a long time to see something like this and it makes them harried for something tangible. Also being immersed in these things really gives you a sense of power that can lead toward hubris. This needs to be a social and economic movement BEFORE a political one.
I don't know what the difference between social/economic and political. Aren't those synonymous?
They are related and intertwined, but not the same. Social is issues(leftvs.right). Economic is fiscal(money). Political is form of governance.
okay well then I disagree. we need the mode of operation that will then address economic and social. The political will submit ideas for the economic and social. And because of the political we will have the means to choose. It is the very lack of political that caused us not to be able to defend our views, when deregulation came up in the first place.
That makes sense. A good analysis of the dynamics behind this. So this is where collectively we need to encourage / take the deep breath. How do we help bring that deep breath on?
I'm not sure Rising. Maybe we Ask Egypt? I guess I'll have to sleep on this one. But I do know this tactic occupy is sound, the location is good, if the center (NY) holds into the Spring we'll win sooner rather than later all else can be lost and regained. Feeding the hungry is awesome, the more we can integrate with social outreach and can actually aid people now in real time, the more legitimacy we gain. Which has the added bonus of keeping the hot-heads' hands busy. More than that, I don't know..yet.
I think you're right on target. After taking a little time to consider, I also think it's OK for there to be questions we just can't answer for now. I think answers will come. They always do.
We The People!!!!
Yes. We the people. Interacting in an authentic way. Shedding our roles and labels and communicating as human beings with a common interest. Together we're greater than the sum of our parts. To paraphrase James Baldwin, we may not yet know the precise shape of our future. But we know that it is ours.
Bongo Jerry, Rastafarian poet, put it like this: "Sooner or later but mus' the dam going to bus' and every person will be free What force, what force can stop of river of people who know their course."
Martin Luther King, Jr. said: "No lie can live forever" and ""The moral arc of the universe bends towards justice" and "Truth crushed to earth rises up."
And Breyton Breytonbach said the following before being sentenced to prison in South Africa:
"Whether we win or we die Freedom will rise...like the sun through the morning clouds."
Now it's our turn. Now is our time to rise.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
-Ol' Thom Jefferson