Forum Post: Most of the supporters of OWS and other similar "Occupations" have no understanding of History or Society
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 10:57 p.m. EST by RossWolfe
(34)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
One of the most glaring problems with the supporters of Occupy Wall Street and its copycat successors is that they suffer from a woefully inadequate understanding of both history and the capitalist social formation.
Though Occupy Wall Street and the Occupy [insert location here] in general still contains many problematic aspects, it nevertheless presents an opportunity for the Left to engage with some of the nascent anti-capitalist sentiment taking shape there. So far it has been successful in enlisting the support of a number of leftish celebrities, prominent unions, and young activists, and has received a lot of media coverage. Hopefully, the demonstrations will lead to a general radicalization of the participants’ politics, and a commitment to the longer-term project of social emancipation.
To this end, I have written up a rather pointed Marxist analysis of the OWS movement so far that you might find interesting:
THE LEFT IS DEAD! LONG LIVE THE LEFT!
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants- Ol' Thom Jefferson!
not interested in marxism. take your marxism and shove it. seriously not interested in any kidn of ideology,. we need science facts, sociology, game theory, systems theory, and sure, history.. but not marxism- which is garbage.
Also not interested in promiting "left wing" its the left wing of onedragon. The right wing attaches via the body of the dragon. not interested. not interesting. its one giant dead end.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/dangers-of-unmoderated-forums/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-the-occupy-movement-as-a-whole-become-a-m/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/corporate-oligarchy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-are-we-and-how-do-we-move-forward/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/things-wall-st-did-were-not-illegal/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/suggested-goals/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/oct-18-gao/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/naomi-klein-climate-change-fight-is-down-to-the-99/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/only-1-demand-includes-all-others-article-v-of-the/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-eco-villages/
If you want to take a scientific perspective upon sociology and economics, than Marx's theories should be highly informative to you, whether you disagree or not.
If you are at all interested in solving poverty, unemployment, environmental destruction and war, then you are going to have examine the function and outcomes of capitalism.
Capitalism depends on scarcity, inequality, the depletion of resources and constant expansion.
This isn't a cultural phenomenon or an ideological concept, it's the conclusion of unbiased observation and fact.
For example.
Getting money out of politics is great, and I applaud this move. However, the creation of jobs requires demand. Demand isn't suddenly going to manifest from making small changes within congress.
How is this going to help the million homeless hungry uneducated unskilled and mentally ill people living in tents?
Capitalism, free market or otherwise, holds no obligation to resolve the issues that so many are protesting about.
This is why discussion and critique of capitalism is necessary, and the same goes for Marxism too.
But instead of just slandering and calling it garbage, you should educate yourself and form a coherent contention with examples.
back in reality, marx is a big distraction, a mere ideology, and not a useful or meaningful direction, esp considering the polarization that occurs over it. I have studied marx. I know all about it. And its not useful or meaningful to point at for the kids who need to get an education now. The functions and outcomes of capitalism? a non-existent system. Capitalism has never existed. Corporate oligarchy does exist. The capitalism/ marxism duality is one mental cage. Your just occupying one end of that cage.
old dead old dead old dead ideology has no relevance. old dead men with their giant philosophy has no relevance. Old dead ideologies which only fools and dupes promote has no relevance. Sociology, systems theory, game theory, modern science has the answers. marxism is garbage, and not meaningful compared to science.
You haven't supported your contentions with any examples to back them up.
You need to provide analysis, logic and evidence.
That is what science is about.
Anything less is simply emotional and biased.
The scientific theories you have proposed might be used as tools to model a new economic system, but what you are not explaining is how they are going to solve the internal contradictions of capitalism.
How is systems theory going to help millions of starving uneducated people who have nothing?
How does it create the demand necessary to produce employment under the capitalist system.
Marxism isn't a philosophy, it's an analysis of capitalism and it's flaws.
"It's never existed".
Capitalism is the accumulation of capital - surplus value. It has existed since the end of feudalism.
there wasn't an end to feudalism. just smoke and mirrors to con scam the peasants. My logic and the truth value are self evident. Run google if you must.
Systems theory would define any government as existing to serve the population, and show that any harm of problem or hunger is a systemic problem and systemic imbalance and would provide absolute and dynamic answers for how to end poverty and hunger.
Marxism is merely an ideology. It has no science structure and no meaningful solutions.
Capitalism has never existed, "Capitalism" is just the name of the game they play in the corporate oligarchy (smoke and mirrors modern feudalism) rigged casino.
Of course you want capitalism to exist because thats your super villain. The obvious truth comes to mind. Capitalism and marxism NEED each other like democrats and republicans to point their fingers at. Without capitalism marxism is just abstract jingoist philosophy. So the bizzare truth of the matter is that marxism is actually denomination of capitalism just like atheism is actually a denomination of christianity.
great job of promoting the cororate oligarchies lies and disinfo as one of their duped pawns.
time to wake up yet?
http://www.oligarchyusa.com/
http://www.istockanalyst.com/finance/story/5390832/some-fascinating-stats-about-our-corporate-oligarchy
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/21st-century-challenges/ethicsandeconomics/
According to a 2008 article by David Rothkopf, the world’s 1,100 richest people have almost twice the assets of the poorest 2.5 billion (Rothkopf, 2008). Aside from the obvious problem – that this global elite has their hands in everything from politics to financial institutions – …
http://theprogressiveplaybook.com/2011/09/occupywallstreet-an-american-tahrir/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ght22PnCXy0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/wisconsin-is-ground-zero_b_825321.html
http://last-lost-empire.com/blog/?tag=global-corporate-oligarchy
To the extent that we, the people, are removed from control over our lands, marketplaces, central banks, and media we are no longer empowered. In practice, those few who do control the land, central bank, media and "free market" are the real rulers of our corrupt and declining "democracy."
Due to propaganda from a corporate-owned and edited media we are kept from knowing, much less debating, the nature of our system. Due to a central bank owned by bankers, media owned by a few global concerns, and trade regime controlled by global corporations (i.e., one designed to remove the people from control over their markets and environments) the vast majority have become little more than latter-day serfs and neo-slaves upon a corporate latifundia.
To restore a semblance of effective democracy and true freedom Americans, and people around the world, need to re-educate themselves as to the true nature of their political and economic systems. Toward this end, OligarchyUSA.com is dedicated to providing old and new information, books, links, reform ideas and debates not easily found or accessed today in establishment media.
OligarchyUSA.com is but one more site and sign of the times as ground-up counter-revolutions arise around the world... all in response to a forced and freedomless globalization courtesy of a ruling global elite perfecting their top-down plutocracy and revolutions of the rich against the poor. In short, democracy is no longer effective today. For this reason, it is toward a restoration of truly effective and representative democracies, and natural freedom, that this site is dedicated.
Stop telling me to wake up, you arrogant egotistical little fuck.
Yes, the oligarchy was carried through feudalism into capitalism, but capitalism is what allowed the oligarchy to sustain itself.
Yes, the influence of capital over congress is a problem, but capitalism is what allows this problem to exist.
It's not going to go away until you remove capitalism.
Capitalism is what supports the oligarchy, or the plutocracy, or the plutarch if you will.
The reason there is poverty is because of capitalism. In a world where everything is privately owned, the only way for people to survive is till sell their labor. Because of the profit motive, businesses maximize profit by reducing labor costs, therefore outsourcing and technological automation occur.
This results in massive unemployment.
Because of the capitalism's incessant need to expand, natural resources are depleted and war is waged.
Marxism isn't a replacement for capitalism. Marxism isn't an economic system like capitalism is. It's not a philosophy. It's not even really an ideology.
All that Marx did was analyze capitalism and explain why it is flawed.
nope, i'm not arrogant or egotistical i have aspergers syndrome and thus almost no ego. capitalism never existed. corporate oligarchy make believing capitalism like little girls make believing in tea is not capitalism.
you can't remove what does not exist. without your super villain, your super hero is just an old bearded dead man with bright red underwear.
corporate oligarchies need to expand. true form capitalism is far more stable and steady state.
Marxism can analyze a theoretical system which has never existed all it likes.
Its a stupid and pointless game. Since capitalism does not exist, marxism is accidentally just propping up capitalism the con scam by being the convenient foil and false critique.
Any promotion of marxism is thus actually a promotion of " capitalism"- the corporate oligarchy con scam.
you are a dupe and a pawn and a tool, until you wake up.
You have an ego. It's monstrous.
You're calling me names, insulting me, and belittling me.
They are the defense mechanisms of your ego, trying to make yourself feel better by making me feel worse.
Claiming that capitalism never existed is an application of the 'no true Scotsman fallacy'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman
I can say the same thing about Communism. It has never existed, because true communism, as described by Marx, has no government.
All countries who call themselves communist retain their communist party. It's not true communism.
Capitalism exists.
Look up the definition of capitalism. All land is privately owned, as is the means of production, which is operated for profit. This exists.
I'm simply stating simple facts. its not an insult nor demeaning in formal logic if its both true and relevant.
claiming that capitalism has existed is assorted fallacies, including existentialist and bandwagon. Capitalism is a specific system, and we have never had that system.
communism has never existed. now you are catching on. capitalism has also never existed.
i have looked up the definition of capitalism and studied political science to the expert level. you are simply running in circles. Capitalism does not exist, has never existed, and you are attached to it because its your boogeyman which justifies your superhero.
Did you check my corporate oligarchy links? no.
so what makes you think you can tell me to go look things up or check out your links?
join science and fact and rational sensible reality and leave the dead dead dead ideology in histories dustbin where it belongs.
Didn't your mommy ever tell you not to pick up rotting trash?
you're not talking to me anymore?
Had enough?
If you're interested in science, and not egos, why don't we start at the basics.
Let's define capitalism.
How do you define capitalism?
the standard way. capital. ism.
"cap·i·tal·ism [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Show IPA noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth."
sounds like our system until you stop and consider that in fact the corporate oligarchy constitutes a supra legal shadow government, and so the vast majority of all holdings and resources and money is actually owned by that shadow government.
Capitalism in the real sense by comparison would be far better, because at least those things would be held by private citizens instead of a shadow government.
The shadow government is still technically private owners, so according to that definition, capitalism is what currently exists.
sorry, no, what currently exists is not capitalism, in order to be capitalism it would have to exist without a caste system, without assorted rigged casino mind games. Its not capitalism its make believe capitalism. Its clear you have not read my links.
http://www.oligarchyusa.com/
http://www.istockanalyst.com/finance/story/5390832/some-fascinating-stats-about-our-corporate-oligarchy
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/21st-century-challenges/ethicsandeconomics/
According to a 2008 article by David Rothkopf, the world’s 1,100 richest people have almost twice the assets of the poorest 2.5 billion (Rothkopf, 2008). Aside from the obvious problem – that this global elite has their hands in everything from politics to financial institutions – …
http://theprogressiveplaybook.com/2011/09/occupywallstreet-an-american-tahrir/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ght22PnCXy0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/wisconsin-is-ground-zero_b_825321.html
http://last-lost-empire.com/blog/?tag=global-corporate-oligarchy
To the extent that we, the people, are removed from control over our lands, marketplaces, central banks, and media we are no longer empowered. In practice, those few who do control the land, central bank, media and "free market" are the real rulers of our corrupt and declining "democracy."
Due to propaganda from a corporate-owned and edited media we are kept from knowing, much less debating, the nature of our system. Due to a central bank owned by bankers, media owned by a few global concerns, and trade regime controlled by global corporations (i.e., one designed to remove the people from control over their markets and environments) the vast majority have become little more than latter-day serfs and neo-slaves upon a corporate latifundia.
To restore a semblance of effective democracy and true freedom Americans, and people around the world, need to re-educate themselves as to the true nature of their political and economic systems. Toward this end, OligarchyUSA.com is dedicated to providing old and new information, books, links, reform ideas and debates not easily found or accessed today in establishment media.
OligarchyUSA.com is but one more site and sign of the times as ground-up counter-revolutions arise around the world... all in response to a forced and freedomless globalization of a ruling global elite perfecting their top-down plutocracy and revolutions of the rich against the poor. In short, democracy is no longer effective today. For this reason, it is toward a restoration of truly effective and representative democracies, and natural freedom, that this site is dedicated.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organizational-map-2/
All the land and the means of production belong to private owners, even if those private owners happen to belong to the shadow government.
The definition of capitalism doesn't specify any requirements on the occupations held by those private owners,
It just says private owners.
We have Capitalism, according to it's definition.
no, we have corporate oligarchy, i'm done running in circles with you. I'm propping up your stupid thread. game over.
gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 0 seconds ago
"cap·i·tal·ism [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Show IPA noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth."
Corporate oligarchy; an economic and political system, in which investment and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth, is made and maintained chiefly by a shadow government, which uses other systems such as capitalism or democracy as a front and mask to cover over the simple truth. Capitalism= private ownership Corporate oligarchy= state ownership. In this, corporate oligarchy is actually closer to socialism and communism than it actually is to capitalism.
gawdoftruth (Santa Barbara, CA) 1 points 7 minutes ago
the standard way. capital. ism.
"cap·i·tal·ism [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Show IPA noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth."
sounds like our system until you stop and consider that in fact the corporate oligarchy constitutes a supra legal shadow government, and so the vast majority of all holdings and resources and money is actually owned by that shadow government.
Capitalism in the real sense by comparison would be far better, because at least those things would be held by private citizens instead of a shadow government.
capitalism never existed. corporate oligarchy make believing capitalism like little girls make believing in tea is not capitalism.
you can't remove what does not exist. without your super villain, your super hero is just an old bearded dead man with bright red underwear.
corporate oligarchies need to expand. true form capitalism is far more stable and steady state.
Marxism can analyze a theoretical system which has never existed all it likes.
Its a stupid and pointless game. Since capitalism does not exist, marxism is accidentally just propping up capitalism the con scam by being the convenient foil and false critique.
Any promotion of marxism is thus actually a promotion of " capitalism"- the corporate oligarchy con scam.
you are a dupe and a pawn and a tool, until you wake up.
In my opinion, the corporate oligarchy is made possible through capitalism.
Removing the corporate oligarchy but keeping capitalism will result in another corporate oligarchy.
How would you prevent the corporate oligarchy from occurring again, if we allow the accumulation of capital to continue.
If we allow people to get rich by having lots of money and lot's of private property, how do you keep them from having lot's of power?
"cap·i·tal·ism [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Show IPA noun an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth."
Corporate oligarchy; an economic and political system, in which investment and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth, is made and maintained chiefly by a shadow government, which uses other systems such as capitalism or democracy as a front and mask to cover over the simple truth. Capitalism= private ownership Corporate oligarchy= state ownership. In this, corporate oligarchy is actually closer to socialism and communism than it actually is to capitalism.
Socialism is when the land is either state owned or commonly owned.
Communism is when the land is commonly owned.
Capitalism is when the land is privately owned, which is what we have now.
well said gawdoftruth very well said. We need to detach from ideologies and start from Zero :) BRAVO!!
Left - Right ... what difference does it make when Industry is buying the laws and defining our government? I keep bringing up how the Hearst Corporation has demonized industrial Hemp.
So theyre heavily invested in lumber operations and would take a financial hit if industrial Hemp (being a direct competitor) were to reamin a cash crop. Should it really be possible for a corporation to come in and do a media blitz demonizing CORN because theyre heavily invested in BEANS?
This really doesnt matter to me as much as the people behind bars as a result of bogus laws, and govt agencies that exist to 'protect the people' yet rely on data submitted by the corporations theyre supposed to be protecting us from.
so I say again ... Left - Right? ... I dont even see a government, all I see is an extension of big business. Any tool who says any different hasnt gotten the memo yet.
The old paradigm doesn't matter - it is dead.
This is a new paradigm which will make its own history.
Left is no more radical than right, it depends on your perspective. No matter what the system, all of the people have a right to access to the basic necessities of life. I f that cannot be delivered, it is time for a drastic change. http://sibob.org/wordpress/
I am not opposed to capitalism. The impression I've gotten over the past few weeks isn't that there's an absolute anti-capitalist theme among supporters, even. I am opposed to unmitigated, unrepentant, immoral, and outright corrupt capitalism. I am in favor of responsible capitalism with an acceptance of a social contract to willingly and gladly give back to the society which has born the fruits of those entrepreneurial efforts.
I think its usually marxists who are ignorant of history, they are because they rewrite and rewrite history time and time again to cover glaring contradictions, and how the typical inflexibility thinking of most marxists leads to continuous failure.
Most of you are no better than reliegous nuts, instead of the bible you have the communist manefesto. When something goes wrong its because someone wasn't enough of a true believer, and some unlucky sole who looses a popularity contest gets punished for being a counter-revolutionary. When the system fails, panic starts.
While other so called "leftist" ideas like anarchism and social democracy continue to evolve, marxism died.
Most of us are looking past marxism towards a new conversation we are having with each other based off real 21st century problems. The last thing any of us want is some backwards idealogical nut coming to enforce ideas on us.
Certainly some Marxists gloss over their problematic political history. Those who have any integrity, however, are ruthlessly self-critical. Marxism remains the only adequate framework with which to understand the capitalist world-system and history.
Most of the supporters of OWS and other similar "Occupations????"
Other similar "Occupations"?????
Have there been any? Here in the US. In the last 30 years? You lost credibility before I even got to the end of your headline.
You do understand this movement has nothing to do with left wing politics right? It has to do with all politics and how politics operates in general. Some popular left side entity may support us but that doesnt mean we support them.
Someone used the term "Radical Moderate", maybe that is our actual political alignment. But we really just rather be called 99%ers. We have right wingers and left wingers and moderate middles and we all stand together.