Forum Post: No Spokesperson, No Leader
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 10:10 p.m. EST by GypsyKing
(8708)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
In my opinion this movement, assembly, organization - whatever you chose to call it - should remain without spokespeople, the reason being that the vulnerability of such movements in the 20th century was always their leaders (and spoksperson is really just another name for leader). Also, leaders of ant kind are inherently divisive. Some will like them - some won't. Finally, leaders are no longer necessary. The computor enables direct democracy. Rule by direct vote. The message is already out there. We don't need any one individual to further articulate it any more clearly. Anyone who doesn't understand by now is either of sub par intelligence, or just doesn't want to understand. We ourselves are the message.
The vast majority of the American public is not behind us...yet. It is ill-advised to enter into an uphill fight in a flawed political system before that is so. It is equally unwise to be formulating demands. Each new demand is an opportunity for a potential ally to dismiss us as not representing their perceived interest. The only thing that the 99% will be able to unify behind during this period of distortion and misrepresentation is the belief that, in this country, people have the right to peacefully assemble and speak their minds. This is the totality of what should be done. This act alone is intolerable to the 1% and their functionaries. It is more than enough to create the violent repression that will bring new individuals into the movement. Civil disobedience beyond this simple scope is premature. This is a long fight, breaking the law and inconveniencing the 99% will not create empathy. Disobedience should only be exercised to the extent necessary to defend our right to freedom of assembly. I demand only to exercise my right to peacefully assemble in a public and accessible location and to voice my dissent. Everything else is incidental.
This strikes me as prudent thinking. I believe you are right. It will be a long haul, or nothing at all.
You are the first agreement I got...I just created this as a thread in forum because I think it merits further discussion.
I would say sir, that we need THINKERS, not leaders... we need to start a discussion HERE, not with everyone else... but with each other... what do we believe? What CAN WE LEARN from the past 200 years of American history... about ourselves.. about the kind of nation we want to continue to be... We need philosophers... writers... those that are on the outside looking in and have the intellectual courage to say, i'm human, i can be wrong... Men and Women of Reason, Action, Ethics, these people would bring us a Second Enlightenment, which is what this movement, in my humble opinion has the potential to be...
Right on the money. The truth is, no one really knows how to do what we're trying to do, no outsider, no single insider. It's up to us collectively, and what you said above is absolutely right as far as I'm concerned. This will take a monumental effort; and courage and endurance above all - but what do we have to loose? As Thomas Mann said, "You Can't Go Home Again." The America we knew no longer exists. There is nothing to loose but the accepance of a long, slow decline into African Nation status! That's the choice and we need to make people understand that!
I recommend in the coming winter months we express this phrase as a means to bring us through... something to remind of the same KIND of sacrifices...
Naked and starving as they are We cannot enough admire The incomparable Patience and Fidelity of the Soldiery –George Washington
We must endure as they endured... for a better... country...
It will certainly take that kind of sacrifice. I'm afraid we can't dellude ourselves on that score. I think it's only fair to add Abbey to that list. He was a great and very misunderstood man.
Agreed entirely.
And might I propose (and I apologize if I've done so to you already) the following?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-central-message-we-need/
One more point in this whole question of putting a face on the movement with a spokesperson/leader/whatever. Probably the three people who set back democratic, equality-movenments more than anyone in history were not right-wing but "left-wing" leaders. They were Napolian, Stalin and Mao. That fact has given a great number of people a fear of the left-wing that is by no means unfounded. Stalin alone did more to set back the left than Hitler and all the right-wing tyrannies since, combined, and that's another reason why we need people to fill necessary functions without printing a face on the movement. Lets keep it about the people's rightful grievances, and not about personalities - anybody's personality. This si why, I think, we have as much symapthy as we do at the moment. We seem pretty non threatening, as I hope and know that we are. Let's keep it that way.
Very interesting comments here. I do have to ask, are we not suffering already from a leaderless society? Oh, we have elected officials, administrators, CEO's, presidents, and numerous forms of oligarchy, but there is no true leader among them. You are right that leaders can lead things astray. But, the same is just as blatant on an individual basis. Millions of people euphorically cast their vote for the "next person to end all of my problems" candidate. People are easily blinded and on many occasions democracy become the lynch mob that hangs the innocent. OWS has brought a great deal of attention, but has it disrupted the thus far undisputed preeminence of Wall Street and the financial industry? Have you looked closely at their hegemony over all aspects of society? You can not mitigate away all vulnerabilities or concerns - they will exist with or without the choosing of leadership or a spokesperson. The fact remains that you can not please everyone and to think otherwise is to ignore human nature.
If your goal is to simply bring attention to the issues at hand, then you have achieved your purpose. To push beyond that will require well defined leadership and goals. Remember, here and on other similar forums, you are speaking to the choir - those who comprehend what this is all about. You are not trying to reach those who are here. You have to reach those who are not here, those who don't get it! To quote an old western saying, "You don't have to turn the whole herd, you only have to turn the Bull!"
Very thoughtful responce. I just had to respond to this! The question is, what makes a movement into a truely Mass Movement? I think this is a very tough question - I don't think we really know what, exactly does that. I do remember that when MLK was shot the civil rights movement disolved in smoke, literally. I know when RFK was shot the left-wing failed to coalesse around a new leader and prevent the re-election of Johnson, a disaster. Of the right-wing backlash that followed we are all only too well aware. There is another Old Western saying, "You can lead a hourse to water but you can't make him drink." At some point it is truely up to the people in this country to stand-up for themselves. If they don't want to, you can't make them. What I do know, is that staying power counts! If others see that our convictions aren't just a fad, or a flash in the pan they may come around. If they don't want to they won't. Everyone knows, despite what the media says, exactly why we're here. That is enough because it cannot be discredited. Discrediting leaders is what the 1% and their Karl Roves (with the media at their backs) are best at, so all we can do is do what we're doing and give people an opportunity to join. They are the 99% and you can't force them to do anything. It took Ghandi something like 50 years, maybe we can do it in far less time; but leaders they know how to deal with!
I don't want to be elected into OWS "office" - I just want to help lead the ideas of OWS in a way that changes can be made. The word leader is being dragged through the mud. IMO www.purpleblogspot.blogspot.com Vote!
It's way past time the word "leader" was dragged through the mud. Leaders are unneccessary. If the net has enabled one positive change, it is that. The less hierarchy the less conflict, the less egotism, the less chance of being sold out. Sure, some people will have to assume certain roles, but only with strict term limits. This cannot be let to become about somebodies ego. By the way, who are you?
lol yes! Please, let me give you my full name, ssn, address and a list of my family members :) How about I call myself a HUGE supporter - that is willing to go above and beyond. Take the word leader right out of it. Who are you? :P
nobody
exactly
Here's the ego coming out I was warning about.
agreed. no leaders. that just gives the corporate oligarchy a focus target, and creates a new false hierarchy.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/dangers-of-unmoderated-forums/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-the-occupy-movement-as-a-whole-become-a-m/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/corporate-oligarchy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-are-we-and-how-do-we-move-forward/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/things-wall-st-did-were-not-illegal/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/suggested-goals/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/oct-18-gao/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/naomi-klein-climate-change-fight-is-down-to-the-99/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/only-1-demand-includes-all-others-article-v-of-the/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-eco-villages/
Leaderless, agreed. Voiceless (no spokesperson) is stupid.
For the time being, it works. The movement is still about many voices, and general discontent. If we want anything to get done, however, SOMEONE must take the voted results to the next level. Whether it's a different person every time doesn't matter, but to have a voice, there must also be a face of some sort involved. Just my opinion
A different person every time is all right!
We may not need dictatorial leaders, or charismatic spokesmen. But we do need definite plans, and infrastructural designs from professionals who actually know what they are doing.
Plans and professionals yes, puiblic faces no. Wear the mask!
Without spokesman you won't reach a discussion, without discussion you won't reach any compromise, without compromise you won't reach anything.
Anyone who becomes a figure publically associated with this movement will be a target, for bullets and bribery. Remember King, Remember RFK, remember Ghandi?
That is correct but any successful movement had and need a spokesman.
Someone suggested rotating spokepeople. That I think is a very good idea.
Perhaps - but no spokesman isn't a good idea - who shoud lead discussions with the other site ?
Leaders will almost always sell us out its human nature.
I agree, keep this one going.
Absolutely! That way, anyone can assign any label they like to it, and use it to their benefit in any way they see fit!