Forum Post: Look It Up
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 11, 2011, 11:17 p.m. EST by CapitalismRulesPeriod
(160)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
This joke of a protest eerily echoes the protests against the aristocrats before the fall of the Roman Republic. The poor wanted the government to take from the rich and give to the poor. the end result was a load of crappy social programs that bankrupted the state. This led to a collapse of the system and the executive powers taking control and creating monarchy. You shouldn't hate those with money, you should aspire to gain the same wealth by hard work and perseverance, not by taking it from those who don't "deserve" it. The government owes you nothing, the banks owe you nothing, and you owe yourselves everything. I am a lower class worker at a grocery store. I plan to start a small business. Don't kill my ambition with business crushing taxes. Look up the fall of the roman republic and rely on your own research on the views of others, not that of opinionated propagandists. The Tea Party was and is made up of ordinary citizens yet the media has demonized them. Go to the actual sites of the groups you disgust and find what they actually believe . If you are still hating them, at least you will know the facts. So I ask that you stop complaining that the government isn't doing enough and start complaining that you aren't doing enough for yourself. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, pick yourself off of the ground, and start being a productive member of society.
Note:The song "the trees"by rush sums up this protest quite nicely and "get over it" by the eagles is also great. also notice that everything you have was created by a corporation at some point: even if it was home made you must have gotten the thread from somewhere...
the part you do not understand or are unwilling to admit is we are not asking for a handout. we are asking for this joke of a wage system that does not allow us to adjust for inflation just like every other business and institution does. we are purposely kept on this fixed wage system because the growing inflation gap means that the co keeps the profit from that gap while the actual value of our compensation decreases. but if you wana continue on acting like what you say doesn't sound like stockholm syndrome, by all means........
you make it sound like wages are decided on by some secret cabal. wages are determined in the aggregate. possibly harshly but there is no conspiracy. the only person you can ask to raise your wage is your employer or someone else who might hire you. i will admit that wages for low skill jobs have stagnated. This is more because of globalization and immigration though. I'm not sure how a banker would be able to help you anyway (unless you work for a bank).
reality does not require a villain for something unpleasant to happen. stop being so extreme in your soul and these things will stop seeming so extreme. it's just part of being human and our instinctual drive to do better tomorrow.
oh, PS: I was kind of reading comments and forgot how overly aggressive the actual post everyone is commenting on actually was. Looking back at it your post seems much more reasonable.
Still, I agree with your recomment. I think I was trying to get across (too extremely) that you sounded like there was a villain. Individual workers are trying to get as much as they can employers are trying to get as much as they can for as little as needed. It's a sad cycle particularly when low skilled workers are as outgunned as they have been for a while now but I just don't think that cycle has much to do with bankers. And I think most people are aware that not getting a raise is the same as getting a pay cut with inflation. Although wage adjustments are one of the reasons economists favor a small amount of inflation. and now i'm rambling... sorry
"workers are trying to get as much as they can employers are trying to get as much as they can for as little as needed" this is why i will never do management again. sooo true.
Inflation is in large part caused by the Federal Reserve.
If the people have sound money instead of fiat currency, they won't need fixed wages.
you should be ashamed of yourself trying to take advantage of what people don't know. you cannot overcome the amount of intelligent people on this side of the argument educating others with fact and data to back it up. you simply cannot overcome the truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation
people like you will be last when this is done.
One of the problems is when you say things that begin with "people like you..."
I did not attack your character or your intelligence. Please do not attack mine.
If you expand the money supply endlessly, all of the money will be eventually be worth less by the amount you expand it. We are poised on the edge of hyperinflation because of the Federal Reserve. If you don't believe me, then fine, but you do not need to insult me.
I think we've expanded the money supply too quickly but hyperinflation is a bit of an exaggeration. we're probably going to be looking at 5-6% soon-ish unless they pull back which is bad but not disastrous. Fiat money is fine if restraint is shown. Not that it always is shown though...
you are one of those people that want to blame the fed. this is a myth that has been driven by forces outside of our country trying to dis-empower us by getting people like you to take down the financial institutions. why do you think they hit the towers. and yes, blathering sh!t you hear without thinking for yourself and do the hard boring research are as much to blame as anyone.
You have no idea what your talking about or even what the FED is. It is a privately help, not federal despite its name, organization who mediates the flow of money from the government to the government. It is not their money they are playing with and like every company it is FOR PROFIT. That is what has caused the majority of our inflation and our boom bust cycles this country has gone through
In our capitalist system, you have the ability to get whatever pay your talents and skillset demand.
If your in high demand, you will be compensated for it If your in low demand, you will be compensated likewise.
is this wrong?
are you really this dumb or just oversimplifying on the premiss that you are too clever for us to figure it out?
you described this "joke of a wage system"...explain.
i did. if you need clarity, research the terms i posted above.
"we are purposely kept on this fixed wage system"
In order to adequately reply to you, we have to know how YOU define "this fixed wage system".
wel "I" do not define reality. you could use that realization as well.
YOU chose to define something that I can only assume exists in reality (otherwise you are protesting the non-existent) with the words "fixed wage system". If you cannot tell me what that is to a greater, more detailed degree, then you lack the communication skills required to make a point.
ah yes, i play your game, or there is something wrong with me. dude you're the one with stockholm syndrome not me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6M-_IazJp0
Your rhetoric needs polishing, but you're on the right track. Sad thing is that you've already admitted that you don't define reality, so you stating that I have Stockholm syndrome doesn't make it real.
you're fun!
you're a tool!
i love you man :)
Awww thanks. (But I'm not a man) :)
lmao oops :P
You should have that "a" looked at....laughter shouldn't make it fall off like that....
sorry friend, but this: "we are purposely kept on this fixed wage system because the growing inflation gap means that the co keeps the profit from that gap while the actual value of our compensation decreases."
is not an explanation of anything...as it does not describe our current Capitalist compensation system.
well that tells me you do not understand what inflation is. look it up.
I know what inflation is.
what it tells me is you have no clue how our Capitalist economy works and that you can, via your skillset and intellect, demand any pay you wish.
then tall me what inflation is, help educate other readers.
Richard!
You're shooting at the wrong target!
The problem isn't that your wages don't keep up with inflation, the problem is that there IS inflation.
Inflation is expansion of the money supply. Which is a code phrase meaning that there is a player in the game that can print money at zero cost and spend it into the economy, while you have to produce value for every thin dime you get. If you did that, it would be counterfeiting. Why is counterfeiting wrong? Who does it steal from? It is wrong because it is theft, and it steals from everyone who has to produce value to get the money by making that money worth less.
So there is evil in the system. It is that evil that keeps you running on a hamster wheel your whole life, trying to keep up, while someone else invisibly keeps decreasing the value not only of your savings, but as you CORRECTLY identified, they keep invisibly stealing from the value of your work and your time of life that you put into it.
Strike at the root! Not your hapless employer who is caught in the same net.
Realize that inflation is theft, it is the cruelest form of taxation because it hits the poor the hardest by moving the cost of necessities out of reach.
Realize that this Niagara Falls of free money is what buys up your government, buys up the press, entertainment, schools, and everything in your environment. The printed money-from-thin-air is used to rule over you, invisibly.
Google 'money as debt'. Invest 45 minutes to watch it. Then ask yourself, 'why is this basic knowledge not taught in every high school in the land?'
And in asking, you will have your answer.
that is some long winded ignorance. inflation is cause many ways, one of is to add money to the system. say you stop doing that to. so then the population triples as it will, what happens then? what is that effect called?
I see I wasted my words, because you won't watch that little video, will you?
The answer to your question of what that is called is 'increased purchasing power for your savings'.
So let me add this up:
You want people to print money to use it to rule over you, and you want them to use guns to force someone to pay you to get ever-increasing amounts of this printed money, to keep up with the inflation they cause, thus pushing the real cost that was stolen off on ... somebody else. Does that about sum it up?
if you research what i asked you would see why that is only convincing but not plausible. the answer to my question is "Deflation" and the problem with deflation is it makes money king and equity less. so your house would loose value under deflation, robbing you of your initial investment in your home. stop being so self assured and do the work(READ) like you accuse me of not doing.
Inflation and deflation are a monetary phenomenon.
Deflation cannot happen without destruction of currency, just as inflation cannot happen without creation of it.
If your world is all calculated on a moving target like near-constant inflation, then you might conclude that with a stable amount of currency in existence that your house would decrease in 'value'. But the purchasing power of the currency would still buy the same number of hours of work it took to buy it if it stayed in the same condition and had the same desirability as it had when you bought it.
It is only with a player in the game printing money for free that you have booms and busts in markets. This time around, it's costing people their jobs, their homes, and an awful lot of broken families. How can you defend this?
If you can mentally calculate equivalent values with a constantly decreasing value of money, what is so hard about imagining a constantly increasing value of money? The increasing value of money would mean that the employer has the difficult task of trying to reduce wages, which he won't be able to keep up with, and it'll be HIM complaining. It would mean that your savings INCREASES in value, rather than being robbed from you from afar.
Why would it be evil to let people keep the value they have earned, rather than having it stolen from them?
the growth in the money supply should keep up roughly to the growth in gdp. Yes, "Inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon" but that doesn't mean the money supply should stay constant. Inflation is a hidden tax but I think you are overselling it.
You are actually completely correct in that a decreasing value of money would make it difficult for companies to decrease wages. Deflation is not a good thing though and wrecks economies if anything even worse than inflation.
Thus, if they steal exactly just the right amount continuously, they can rob us of all increases in productivity, killing the benefits of the free market and keeping us running along on our little hamster wheels trying to keep up.
Besides the obvious moral implications of this, the problem is that central planners cannot possibly have all the information they need to plan everything, even if they were honestly trying to do what they consider the right thing. They miscalculate. It causes booms and busts. Get ready for the big one.
Times of relative economic stability correspond to the use of precious metals as currency. The biggest disasters coincide with debasement of the currency, including the demise of entire societies.
"Deflation cannot happen without destruction of currency" do you have any idea what you look like posting that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation
From the same page: The neutrality of this section is disputed.
Understatement of the year.
It looks like you're digging in your heels, not willing to learn. Go ahead, accept the definitions of inflation and deflation your government indoctrination fed you. They'll keep skewing the CPI to keep you happy. If so, then quit bitchin' about your wages not keeping up. Because according to them, it's only a few percent.
http://www.shadowstats.com/
I can point you to works that will inform on these Matrix-type concepts, if you're interested in breaking out. If not, it's been fun, if not too informative. Thanks for your time.
thats all fine and well, and i'm glad you are being more consice but as long as you have a curency, and the ratio of volume, goods and population that varies(and in the real world it does) you will always have deflation and inflation. just because people are skewing the facts doesn't mean facts do not exists.
OK, let me try to explain it this way;
If we had an economy with a fixed supply of money and we made widgets, if I invented a process that cut the cost of making widgets in half, you would be able to buy twice as many widgets as before. There not being a decrease in the amount of currency in circulation, that would not be deflation. It would be an increase in your buying power.
Price is a CONSEQUENCE of inflation or deflation, and it is also a consequence of other things, such as productive efficiency. As our productivity increases, prices should drop, the benefit should accrue to producer and consumer alike.
As it is now, the counterfeiters skim off all increases in productivity, stealing it from us. Except when they miscalculate and create too much money. Then it wrecks the economy. And when the economy gets wrecked, society itself gets wrecked.
"If we had an economy with a fixed supply of money and we made widgets, if I invented a process that cut the cost of making widgets in half, you would be able to buy twice as many widgets as before. " in theory this is great, but in reality the saving are counted as profit. walmart is the exception as the are raping third world countries.
No, it's not a theory. I design, build, and sell machines that cut the cost of production. It creates jobs and increases the buying power of my customers who now can now afford more stuff. And I don't get to charge the same thing as the less efficient price. If I did, my competitors would get the job. Our customers have competitors, too. The benefits accrue to everybody. And everybody does what they do on their own choice, willingly, because it is to everybody's mutual benefit.
Economics is not a zero sum game. Wealth is created and then it is consumed, like a river flowing. It is not a pie.
unless your competitors are working in collusion to set pricing. cause that never happens :P dude your work is awesome and those are good goals, but you need to take into account that people are not computers.
There's always a different competitor out there, even from offshore that will step in if anyone tries collusion. Or your customer that you are colluding against goes out of business because HIS competitors will take the business. Collusion can only work with the government gun. And that is the system we have now. Government interfering, picking winners and losers. It always ends up very few winners, and an awful lot of losers. That is corruption, and the guns stop the market from killing it off, so people get put out of business by it.
this inflation is caused because the US goverment. is the only goverment in the world that can just print money to pay off debts. that is why inflation is so bad because the federal goverment is just printing off money like it's an infinite supply. Once the world decides not to buy things using the dollar we are screwed.
Where did you get the idea that the U.S. government prints the money? A private banking cartel prints it, and loans it to the government AT INTEREST.
When you get 45 minutes to spare, please watch Money As Debt for free on Google. You'll be wondering why they don't teach this in every high school in the country. (And in asking, you'll know why.)
We've broken the Matrix. People are waking up to this. We do have a chance to reclaim our freedom and prosperity. Learn how the money system works, and educate the people in your life. Our future depends on it!
where did you get that idea, the federal reserve controls money printing
By reading their mandate. Where did you get the idea that they don't?
the fact that more and more money is worth less and less has nothing to do with what I said.
Inflation isn't that high right now.
In our economic system, You can STILL demand to be paid whatever wage your skillset and intellect allows.
"the fact that more and more money is worth less and less has nothing to do with what I said."
but it does prove you know the answer to your own question. tip: if your going to fk with me you better get up early.
do you even know what it is you're talking about?
I don't think you do...
you said: "we are purposely kept on this fixed wage system" <-- what does that even mean and how does that in any way describe our current Capitalist system??
nobody has EVER fixed my wages...I have ALWAYS earned what my skillset and intellect could demand in the free market.
you guys have no idea the people waiting for this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6M-_IazJp0
sure I do...they are but a SMALL minority of Americans.
OWS is going to be completely co-opted by the political left, it's already started.
The Ron Paul OWS people will leave...some already have.
The Anarchists and Communists in OWS will crawl back under their respective rocks.
And in 2012, Americans by the millions will vote for Obama and the Left or Republicans and the Right.
It's inevitable.
we will never tire.
everyone does eventually
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXXU8SFtTEA
Our current "minimum wage system" IS periodically adjusted for inflation. That's why it changes. But as JS suggested, the minimum amount that someone can make is not the maximum amount they can make. If you want to make more than minimum wage, all you have to do is improve your skill set to meet the criteria for a higher paying wage job.
wow. i will be sure to share that with the waiters i work with that have master degrees. in fact i will suggest they find you on here and explain it to you.
WOW. Do you work in a restaurant that pays the actual minimum wage and allows you collect tips on top of that, or in a restaurant that pays you below minimum wage with the assumption that your tips will insure that you make at very least minimum wage, and possibly more?
Minimum wage outside of the restaurant industry is $7.25-but those people also don't earn tips. Minimum wage inside the restaurant industry is $2.13 with waiters reporting an average hourly wage between $10 and $14 an hour.
well i do many things. right now, yes i am one of the working class your party is trying to suck up to. but i am also a business owner. richardkentgates.com i'm a web developer. Need a website?
Ah there we go. So next time instead of starting a post as if there is an across the board "fixed wage system" for all US employees, and then following that up with stuff about defining reality, might I suggest that you state that you work in the restaurant industry-which has a fixed wage system. NOT actually HAVING all the facts is the greatest contributor to that whole "the part you do not understand or are unwilling to admit" thing.
What you think "my" party is doing or not doing is only relevant if I myself are doing or not doing those things. Aren't you above stereotyping and categorizing people?
Oh....and no thank you, I don't need a website. Your marketing strategy is certainly unique.
lol, indeed unique! i am actually just a developer. i write software that lets others build websites faster and easier, so i don't really concern myself with the general public view.
"so i don't really concern myself with the general public view."
Which is why you have no business trying to represent the view of the general public.
your name doesn't fit you, facts seem to be of your own making.
On the contrary. Facts are facts. If you don't recognize them, don't blame me.
Two words - "Free" Trade.
Two More Words - Fuck you.
If this "protest" were so lame, it wouldn't be making so many people--like you--angry and pissed off. So, we must be doing something right! :D
And btw, not all these people are "poor" as you call them. The biggest mistake of those against this movement is that it's made up only of poor people. It's not.
As for urging people to aspire to wealth, one could easily say that you should aspire to living more equitably and bring taxes--the lowest the've been in many years--back to a more reasonable level in times of greater need. Like, so, now.
Taxes don't kill business and ambition. In fact, during the post war years, taxes were much much higher and growth was through the roof. Taxes, as I said, are as low as they've been in decades, and corporations are just sitting on trillions of dollars. (source: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jun/29/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-tax-rates-are-lowest-1950s-ceos-/) So, low taxes doesn't necessarily equal growth. And, one could argue, the Bush tax cuts, which have been in place for a decade, have done nothing to spur growth (source: http://groobiecat.blogspot.com/2011/09/bush-vs-obama-lets-compare-unemployment.html)
"The Tea Party was and is made up of ordinary citizens yet the media has demonized them."
Um, no; the Tea Party held its first rally one week after Obama took office. One week. They didn't do shit during the Bush administration after he and his war-crony pals destroyed the country. So, not a lot of sympathy there. Bush doubled the national debt--where was the outrage? Bush got us into war based on lies and deceit and Obama is the enemy? See the problem here? Hard not to see that as anything but racist or just crazy--take your pick.
I've been to their sites. Have you? Here's one's core beliefs:
http://groobiecat.blogspot.com/2011/10/tea-party-vs-occupywallstreet-party.html
No one is complaining that the government isn't doing enough. You misunderstand the movement. We're complaining that the system is inequitable, flooded with corporate money, and places the interests of the few over the interests of the many.
As far as I can tell, the Tea Party is against any role for government, thinks all social programs are socialism, and that free markets are akin to godliness.
You want people to read up on the Tea Party? Fine. You need to read up on the movement before you pass judgement--or, better yet, don't judge at all...
sorry which rally a week after obama took office? (I'm not trying to be confrontational. actually just interested.
More generally, I get the impression that most occupy Wall Streeters are either liberal establishment or relatively rich college kids or labor union members. At the same time, I get the feeling that most Tea Partiers were probably libertarian leaning or conservatives already.
As far as your statements about money in politics, personally I think corporations put money in politics only because they know they can get it back from the government. You cut back on special tax breaks, loans for particular industries, general pork barreling and I think you could get most of the corporate money out of politics. But as long as the federal government is handing out money to corporations, you are going to have corporate money in politics. As long as regulators make sweeping decisions affecting whole industries, corporations are going to do everything possible to be at the table. Some stuff is needed but keep it minimal. And no names of serving congressmen or women on buildings. And you can cut this spending out without having to cut social safety net spending.
sorry, three weeks after (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement).
"As far as your statements about money in politics, personally I think corporations put money in politics only because they know they can get it back from the government."
No, sorry, this is incorrect. Corporations put money into politics to influence policy. Period. I worked in Congress and corporations and the federal government. I know this first-hand. I know corporate lobbyists. I know the strategy. The way to get corporate money out of politics is to get corporate money out of politics. Not through chipping away on the outside. Special tax breaks should be eliminated, I agree there, including the tax "incentives" to record profit making oil companies that no longer need an "incentive" to drill.
"But as long as the federal government is handing out money to corporations, you are going to have corporate money in politics."
Nothing personal, but this really isn't how it works. Cut off tax breaks, and corporations will actually spend more to get members in congress that will provide policy fixes that favor them.
"...regulators make sweeping decisions affecting whole industries, corporations are going to do everything possible to be at the table."
Do you have examples? I think corporations will always be at the table because it's in their interest to do so, and the Supreme Court's recent decision made it almost impossible to keep them away from the table. They interpret "free market," as letting corporations donate as much money as they want to candidates, which will lead to the true corporatocracy. That money should be regulated or completely banned, which is even better. I think it might take a constitutional amendment to do it, tho.
But I agree with you on the point of members of congress not serving in the industry--or high ranking federal officials. That's one of the #OWS declaration demands, btw.
It doesn't make me angry. I find it hilarious. Not all the tea party people are that racist, just like all the occupy wall street people aren't anti-Semitic. Obama did far more than double the debt. The congress in Bushes second presidency was run by a democrat majority. Also i feel that many people don't realize what they have. In Somalia nobody gets anything and extreme militias fight over control. I'm not saying to get rid of taxes I'm saying don't raise them and cut spending on unnecessary things like Contraception advise for Chinese Prostitutes (this was an actual thing!). I never said all the people of this movement were poor, those were the people of the roman republic. If growth is through the roof nobody will notice high taxes until the next recession.There is a delay between high taxes and economic despair. eventual a bubble will form and the stock market will fall dramatically after it pops.
Wait, #OWS is somehow anti-semitic? You see signs like that do you? "Wall Street's Filled with Jews!"? No. You make no sense.
Obama did more than double the debt. And that's because there was a democratic majority for four years? And that's the end of your "Obama did it" argument.
I see....
Your references to Somalis and Chinese contraception are interesting for the fact that they're completely irrelevant to what's going on here. Logically speaking, that's like saying, "you know, your entire movement could have cancer, but you don't, so, why u mad, bro?" Equally inane. Do any of you know how to engage in reasonable polemic? Or are you all just incredibly arrogant and not terribly bright?
Okay. Tired of dealing with insane right-wing people today.
More tomorrow.
Peace.
No, but i have seen threads on this site condemning Jews. so no OWS is not anti-Semitic. that was the point I was trying to make. The Chinese thing was an example of wasted money. And yes technically Obama is just the figure head but the congress was mostly Democrats until recently. Somalia was a representation of people that have way less than we do and don't complain as much
Okay, I understand you. But did you go to the Tea Party folks and ask them to "complain less"? If you didn't, your views/dismissal of this movement is not valid at a minimum, and hypocritical at a maximum. There were other folks who complained about a system that wasn't just--they happened to start our current experiment in democracy a few hundred years ago.
Your points don't undermine the validity of this movement. And sometimes, people need to deconstruct less, and ask a simple question:
Who screwed up the economy and continues to be unable to fix it a) people in the #OWS movement or b) old deeply polarized political figures who lie and deceive and continually bicker and repeat the same mistakes over and over?
Peace.
Groobiecat
[ There's an #OWS election process here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/come-to-the-nyc-general-assembly-on-10-15-12-to-st/ ]
[ There's a draft Declaration here: https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ ]
Well. How about YOU "look it up". Most of the recessions, depressions and economic down-turns in this country have been propagated by lowering taxes on the wealthy.
And "everything you have was created by a corporation at some point"? How about scissors? Paper clips? Surely you use a lot of those at your job. Invented by normal people and taken by corporations. And PAPER! OMG PAPER! Invented by ancient societies! I'm sure if you actually do your homework and refrain from being a nay-Sayer, you'll find a great many things we have today were not created, in fact, by a corporation. And seriously. Most people will be as productive as society allows them to be.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-flat-tax-is-unfair/
Watch out they already infiltrated us...(remember how a bunch of idiots thought that the Flat Tax was actually fair instead of it being yet another scam to get the lower classes lower taxes on the rich?)
Also - "Free" Trade
Flat tax is a bad idea.
Free trade IS good. I would admit that it is detrimental for those with limited skills since now that they have to compete with the whole world. It is a net good though. It obviously helps most people in America and it helps the poor in other countries more than it hurts anyone in America. And giving equal weight to everyone I find that a net good. (I will not enter into an argument about exploitation because no one has anything to add)
Nope it is bad. It sets country against country in a global race to the bottom. It KILLS industries in the US. It PUNISHES a Progressive society and REWARDS a regressive one. It creates DEMAND for slaves. It doesn't just affect manufacturing either. Limited skills? The new South Korean FTA will KILL Bay Area tech jobs - maybe even setting the course for the destruction of the US Tech Industry. All so we can sell them beef and pork.
Also - did you notice? Most of the other countries we are trading with do NOT honor their side of the FTA. Are US workers getting too demanding? No problem they'll just move to some underdeveloped shithole! We tried to being the jobs back with everything from right to work states and removing our tariffs (it was something like "We'll remove tariffs on multinationals so they can invest here". It failed btw) - none of those efforts have worked. Why? Because the only way this country will be "investable" enough is if we turn into a third world neo-feudal banana republic. Hence - race to the bottom.
That being said...glad someone else sees the foolishness of flat tax.
first I didn't necessarily mean invent, I meant produced or manufactured. second the economy is a cycle, first there is a boom and then there is a recession. the bigger the boom ,the bigger the recession. Third, many people have been more productive than society would allow (and example would be the women suffrage movement or the movement for African American equality) . Society is all the people within a culture. that would include the occupy wall street people.
I'd also like to add, that there's the concept of "dependency ratio". Look THAT one up. And correlating booms to recessions only justifies my taxation assertion. Tell me in an intelligent, well researched way why it doesn't.
The women suffrage movement got some things started, but why is it that women still make less than men on average, regardless of ability? And yes, manufacturing is mostly controlled by corporations. That's fair? I can't easily start a manufacturing business. I currently make less than $20k a year and am about to start making just over that.
If you want to justify capitalism as it exists, then tell me how I can make this happen. Really. I'd like some input.
How can I compete with any legitimacy?
fairly interesting article. While I'm sure there are still anecdotal examples of sexism in the workplace, there is no actual wage differential after corrections have been made for hours worked, field, and work experience. It's very heartening to find out that on average gender does not affect wages in the workplace anymore.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html
you create a better product than they have
Obviously you have little understanding of what "capital" is. I would be competing with people who have (financial) access to better resources, supplies, materials, machines, etc. The product I would produce may be of infinitely better quality, but would still get steamrolled out of existence by a larger, better financially backed corporation. It happens all the time.
Thus, you have not answered the "legitimacy" aspect of the query. Nor, I have noticed, have you managed to confront a great many of the issues I have put before you. Still "looking it up", or just ignoring what you can't defend?
get loan from a reputable bank or credit union after you have the idea for the product ,then create the better product
With $50k in student loan debt, no mortgage-ready home, and a dismal income (YOU report only $20k in earnings and try to get a loan), how do I make this magical loan appear?
skill
You're missing the point. Skill comes from practice. And we're talking about a bureaucratic, number based system. There's little influencing someone who sees a risky bet. This is almost-debate doing little to confront what the real problem is. We live in a "free market" system that forgot what made the free market powerful in the first place. Gambling. Show me a serious, Fortune 500 company that didn't come to be based on an insane gamble. Now. Whittle those numbers down to people who didn't have a whole lot to work with in the first place. My problem with the system isn't so much that people make ludicrous amounts of money. That's just the American dream in action. It's that people without that resource aren't even allowed to play. COMPETITION is what made this country great. It's what made most of the power players what they are today. They've forgotten that and set up a "can't fail" system. There are "wild frontiers" in business where people can make great things happen with just a little know how, but making cardboard boxes for industry or manufacturing blank CD's isn't something you're going to compete in.
The industrial aspect of this quandary is purely hypothetical. I do plan on making gobs of money, but I plan on doing it with my creativity and God-given abilities in the fields of writing, art and storytelling. I somehow get the impression that you're self-made. That's great. More power to you. But the American dream is failing many. You can't discount that. You have to look at the bigger picture. There is a genuine, legitimate reason people in this country feel disenfranchised. Look into that. Also, seriously look into what I've challenged you on.
I'm not hating by any means. I respect the fact that, up to this point, you've tried to be inspirational. But I feel you should take a serious, detached look at what's going on. Not only for the sake of America, but for your own as well.
i meant like being able to convince them your idea is worth something also why would a bank give someone with bad credit a loan
Like I said. You try that on $20 annual. Seriously. Do it as an experiment. Use whatever you've used to make who you are happen, report your income and sell it whatever way you like. Note the result.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-isnt-wall-street-in-jail-20110216?stop_mobi=yes
To further my point, this has nothing to do with the success of companies, out people that build companies through hard work. Its about this bunk ass paid for congress where they intentionally ran americans out of their homes with mortgages they knew would never be paid back, then cooking the books to show extreme profits to further investments all the while knowing the country could never pay off the loans that the federal government pushed all tje banks to offer, all while no regulation was being made.
Do you think big corporations should be allowed to pour 10s of millions of dollars into the voting process?. Threes no way any citizens or states can even come close to "donating" (bribing)elected officials to vote a certain way?
Why do you think alan greenspan, and timothy geihtner and larry summers fought so hard to not allow the finance sector and the big banks to be more regulated? These loans that went out all had triple A ratings because the accounts didn't figure in the future losses.
Those men all had something to gain in insurance benefits for essentially purposefully crashing those companies into the ground.
i don't see why not the voters decide anyway
If you want to bring liberals and conservatives together on this, which I think is a great goal to have, then you need to educate them a bit more on how our country got into this mess in a way that EVERYONE can understand. Please read this article that came out two days ago by an economist who articulates and offers a damn good, realistic solution to this confusion. The masses NEED to vote in the next presidential election and in order for them to be convinced we must have Obama sign a legal and binding contract stating he will repeal the nine economic measures listed in the article BEFORE the next election. Then send this out to everyone involved with OWS, even if you refuse to vote. The masses NEED to be educated about how this mess occurred so their causes can become more defined. http://www.truth-out.org/occupy-wall-street-movement-and-coming-demise-crony-capitalism/1318341474
Senate republicans commit treason by killing 2 million jobs yesterday. If you elect republicans you kill the economy and destroy liberty, justice and the American way.
Senate republicans commit treason by killing 2 million jobs yesterday
did you read that bill, also the majority in the senate are democrats.
Did you know that Adam Smith worried about excessively concentrated wealth in The Wealth of Nations and that such disproportionate concentration would distort the liberty of the people?
that wasn't a clear answer. Did you, or did you not read the bill
REALLY? Maybe you ought to check your facts.
"Despite claims that the song addresses political and socioeconomic issues, Neil Peart has remarked that there is no hidden meaning to the song, and that the inspiration for penning it simply came from a humorous comic strip he read which depicted trees arguing like people."
What else are you misguided about, hmmm?
that's not the point, if you put it as if the song does, then it would make perfect sense
You're twisting facts to make them fit your reasoning.
If you'll do it to a simple song, what else are twisting to meet your needs?
That is the point.
I'm not twisting anything. The song, if the maples are jealous and the oaks are confused why they aren't happy with what they have then it makes sense. Rush seemed secretly conservative if you look at songs like Red Barchetta and I'm sure no non country artist would ever admit openly to a right wing view.
What I posted is Neal Peart (you know, RUSH?) actually said about the song HE WROTE.
You got it twisted. Get it straight.
Or maybe you hear little voices too...
"I am a lower class worker at a grocery store. I plan to start a small business."
I've never done grocery work
I had a friend who had a grocery job
He was the kindest man I knew
He brought food to the SDSU protest in 1991
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-05-23/local/me-3001_1_student-artwork
OK, i don't understand what you are trying to say, sounds like a great guy.
No one is saying, "Give me Money". I want to work and better myself, but I still look at myself as a part of a country- not just my own individual goals for success. Even though I'm employed, I still worry about people who aren't. I still worry about people who are starving in the richest country in the world, too.
It has nothing to do with "feeling sorry" for myself.
Protesting is productive- look at our past as a country and the changes implemented due to protests. Also, "a small business" doesn't even fall under the category of what most people would consider wide-spread corporate greed controlling our state and country...I don't think protesters are asking for more taxation on small businesses.
that may be true, but if a tax is put on a large business then the standard is also put on small businesses in most cases.
I don't believe that has to be the way a new law would be constructed. Most people, at least in ny, who own small business still fall around 100,000 or less a year, technically making them the middle class. It would be a shame if they were unfairly taxed and couldn't provide jobs.
You're wages will stagnate as the cost of living, taxes and inflation continue to increase.
An increasing number of people fall into poverty and unemployment, and any ambitions you might have about starting a business will cease as the public you wish to exploit will no longer be able afford your services.
I don't wish to exploit the customer I intend to give them a product that they can use and in turn get a profit. If my business is successful I want to set up a charity to give my product for free to those who can't afford it.
Although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to be 1 of 100,000 people needed to support a Presidential Candidate – myself – at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
Yeah. The best way to bring down corruption is always by becoming corrupt yourself.
The best way to bring down corruption is to decentralize wealth and income, as bank-owner-voters, so that no one was the wealth and income needed to corrupt anyone else, but enough wealth and income to create the influence needed to take coordinated action nevertheless.
You are worried about the them corrupting politicians I assume? The only reason anyone tries to but politicians is because they give handouts and tax breaks to businesses and regulations are so broad that they can destroy or save industries. You take government out of business and you won't have anymore problems with business trying to buy the government. (Note: ending the habit of pork barrel spending, tax loopholes, grants, government loans ect. could actually raise the amount of money available for roles of government that I hope we can all agree are more central and important).
Agreed, but remember, as cited in the first link above, that as Bank Owner-Voters in your 1 of 48 "new" Business Investment Groups (or "new" Congressional Committees) -- according to your Occupation & Generation -- you become the "new" Congress replacing the "old" Congress, called a Focused Direct Democracy.
Any candidate, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. Sequence is key.
There are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc. The first step of Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters.
So please read and think critically about the 1st link and then join the 2nd link and then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within that strategy as a “new” Candidate (or Leader) according to your current Occupation & Generation.
that sounds like communism to me
Read the first link I cited above; that's DIRECT DEMOCRACY.
direct democracy is impossible because everybody would have to vote on every thing. this is not very efficient
You still didn't read it; they vote by Occupation and Generation in their related Business Investment Groups as General Equity Employees of their 1 Business and Limited Creditor Customers of their own Home Town Banks of 65,000 Members, but perhaps I should have said a Focused Direct Democracy.
perhaps that would have been a better description of your goverment system. also there are three things that shouldn't mix Government,Business, and religion ,for good reason.also don't use a forum to forward a presidential campaign.
I love you, but obviously no one has taught you to READ and THINK critically before you respond LOGICALLY, not EMOTIONALLY. Peace is the absence of emotion, and so is good judgment, so keep that in mind when you try to limit free speech, for a presidential campaign is an excellent topic in any forum given a strategy that achieves everyone's demands, especially yours, so PLEASE, READ BEFORE YOU REPLY.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/ note this is the forum not me stating this , I like discussing these things but not on this particular forum ,also I make few decisions based on emotion, that is why I am not Religious.
Any candidate, regardless of party, is a straw man, a puppet; it's the STRATEGY – the sequence of steps – that the people organize themselves under, in Military Internet Formation of their Individual Purchasing & Group Investment Power, that's important. Sequence is key.
There are Natural Social Laws – in mathematical sequence – that are just like Natural Physical Laws, such as the Law of Gravity. You must follow those Natural Social Laws or the result will be Injustice, War, etc. The first step of Natural Social Law is to CONTROL the Banks as Bank Owner-Voters. If you do not, you will inevitably be UNJUSTLY EXPLOITED by the Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government who have a Legitimate Profit Motive, just like you, to do so.
Consequently, you have no choice but to become Candidates (or Leaders) yourselves as Bank Owner-Voters.
So please, read and think CRITCALLY about the 1st link and then join the 2nd link and then you will see and feel how your goals can be accomplished within that strategy as “new” Candidate (or Leader) according to your Occupation and Generation.
Corruption as the ability to act in depraved or morally deficient ways will always exist as long as long as there are people who choose to be depraved and immoral. History is rife with examples of corruption in which "bankers" and "voters" didn't even exist.
So does that mean you just throw up hands and say: "I'm helpless!" No, you fight for liberty and justice for all at any cost, even failure.
obvious troll is obvious.
i'd ask you to stop being ignorant about what this is about and bother to read up on it, but your screed pretty much tells me that you have no intention of bothering to learn the truth- your just going to sell us BS and lies and spin doctored nonsense. nobody buying.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/dangers-of-unmoderated-forums/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/its-time-the-occupy-movement-as-a-whole-become-a-m/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/corporate-oligarchy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-are-we-and-how-do-we-move-forward/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/things-wall-st-did-were-not-illegal/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/suggested-goals/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/oct-18-gao/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/naomi-klein-climate-change-fight-is-down-to-the-99/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/only-1-demand-includes-all-others-article-v-of-the/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-eco-villages/
i had a feeling nobody on this site would do any research at all. but at least i tried...I have an extensive knowledge of both sides and made an educated decision. I don't call others ignorant just because they don't agree with me. In fact i welcome them because they help me strengthen my argument. taxing the rich is obviously against capitalism because in a capitalist society all individuals with ambition can make as much money as they want without fear of jealous attacks. I happen to work as a bagger at Kroger which is unfortunately a union store so that isn't a lie. greed may be a human fallacy but so is jealousy. I never never lie to prove my point so attacking my integrity will do nothing
I wonder if gawd has heard the economic, civil engineering theory that goes something like "If you want more of something, subsidize it"?
We have more "poor people" in this country that we ever have. We also subsidize poverty more than we ever have. And the fact that the "wealth gap" is widening could also be an indicator that some people are moving up into higher wages while at the same time some are moving lower.
Myself and my husband are living proof that there ARE meaningful opportunities to improve the conditions of life. If it wasn't possible, there would be no middle class at all.
awesome, somebody has a sense of work ethic and the self confidence that prevents them from complaining about what others have that they do not. I think of the song "government cheese" every time i think of The EBT system and section 8 housing.
I was taught that no matter what I didn't have, someone else had less of it than me. I was taught gratitude for what I did have, and that if I wanted something badly enough to do what was required to get it (legally, ethically) that I could have it.
I was taught that if I had the ability to work and provide for myself that it was my duty so that the money the government collected from my neighbors and friends (and myself) could be given to someone who was too sick or too weak or too old to work. A healthy, intelligent, able person had no right to take away from "the money for the poor". It was disgusting to do and embarrassing to witness.
Now the able and healthy feel like it's owed to them and they crowd in until the really sick, or disabled, or elderly are compromised and then they scream in the streets for MORE!!!
against capitalism? which is a polite fiction, used by the corporate oligarchy, to make it seem like there is a meaningful chance others can get in on the game. There isn't. Its a rigged casino, there has never been capitalism.
I have done exhaustive research in political science, sociology, civil engineering, game theory, systems theory, economics, etc. I do know what i am talking about.
Yes, this situation does echo the roman situation, which didn't fall from social programs as you suggest but from excesses of the elite caste.
nobody said anybody owes us anything. we did however say that the current system is patently corrupt and that it is stealing from and cheating everyone. Which is true.
You have spun this in circles, and that IS a lie.
I don't hate those with money. I expect a civilized society to not allow the rich to be career criminals just because they are rich.
Kill your ambition? so your taking the side of corporate oligarchy here, and perpetuating their lies and confusion because you HOPE one day to JOIN them? Grow up, quit pipe dreaming, and see your lot as it exists with the rest of us. If you want to have a better life and a good business, then you are on our side.
the tea party was always an astroturfed con scam, by the elites and for the elites with long lists of ordinary joe dupes. It may be made up of ordinary people but its agenda is for the rich. the tea party is an evil and fascist agenda, don't even bother to argue otherwise.
We are not complaining that the government is not doing enough. its doing too much. its being used as a con scam against the people by the elites. We expect the government to protect the people from corporations by meaningful regulation and laws.
Every last assertion you have made about what we think, what this is about, and what is going on is a lie, a con scam, and BS.
You want us to go research? but ? you come here ignorant, or lying about us because you didn't bother to research.
I gave you the links. before then you were merely ignorant. now your also being stupid.
Go find out what we are really actually about, and then get back to us.
its a bit silly to say you never lie after lying like ten times in a row about us to our faces. Whether you believe those lies yourself or not is a moot point.
do you realize that a corporation is not one entity but a group of many people that have jobs. all a corporation is for is to make a profit which they use to pay their employees and expenses and invest in the company. CEO's are hired by their board of directors who are put in place by those who invest in the company IE normal people.
factual error1: "all a corporation is for is to make a profit which they use to pay their employees and expenses..." WRONG! Profit is total income minus the labor and other expenses . factual error2: "CEO's are hired by their board of directors who are put in place by those who invest in the company IE normal people" WRONG! those who invest in the company are investors IE (mainly) top 1%!
the top 1% are normal people to. also you're right i should have said income instead of profit
No! "Norm" as a statistical term refers to average, middle or median not the top 1%. Normal people are those who not only have no money to invest but they have to pay "interest" on mortgages, loans interests, etc just to amplify the capital gain for the top 1%.
why do you hate rich people so much. you say you don't but all this crap about elites is class warfare.all they did was come up with a idea and act upon it. i did happen to look at you links and your protest doesn't seem to have a clear objective except for saying you are the 99% and they are the 1% but they in fact pay 40% of the income tax and the lower 50% pays none. I tried to have a nice civilized discussion without any name calling but i see now you people have nothing nice to say.
i don't hate rich people. thats a con scam spin lie and BS. class warfare is what THEY started, we are the ones asking for it to stop. They don't pay their fair share in taxes, the percent they pay is not in proportion to the money they earn. You can't be trying to have a nice civilized discussion when you are lying and spinning like this. capitalism does not exist and never has.
I don't think i have ever insulted you once yet you still insist to try to anger me. you also still insist that there is such a thing as a "fair share" if you want a larger group, the top 10% pay 70% of the income tax. I think that is "Fair enough" also have you ever worked for someone without money...i didn't think so. There is no conspiracy around corporations. they operate independently of each other unless they have a business deal such as a store with a distributor. And in fact, the heavily regulated version of American capitalism does exist.
if they make as one percent 43-47 percent of the money, then its pretty much fair that they pay 43 -47 percent of the taxes- at least.
70 percent of the income tax is pretty low considering that the RATE they pay is 1 or 4 percent while the rate the middle class is getting through class warfare is that the fed plays games with the money , banks run rampant as godzillas and then between the two they take pretty much everything including the house.
You have no place to be talking about unfair, because in fact whats gone on is a class war of the rich elites against the rest of us. capitalism does not exist and corporate oligarchy is a giant con scam.
You don't know what you are talking about, go check political science and systems theory and get back to me. Spreading stupid evil lies and distortions this late into the waking up from the matrix is pointless. We are not entertained and we will not just sit around and bicker with the moron white elephant. stop being an idiot, stop trying to pretend you know what you are talking about, and bother to find out the facts. OR stop being evil and lying to us all on purpose. There are only two possible truths here. etiher you are a dupe or a liar. which is it? civilization does not have time for your intentional ignorance, and everyone is waking up to the simple truth. its too late to even try to deny it. we live in a corporate oligarchy. period. the end.
actually we live in a constitutional republic, you seem to be just mad at the system. it is no con scam. you don't seem to know the difference between a corporation and a goverment. if they were in control there would be oppressive laws that said you could only buy from them and not a small business, yet you can. the goverment is run by the executive,legislative, and judicial bodies which pass,carry out, an judge the constitutionality of the laws.
nope, to be a constitutional republic we would have to have a clear line of representation. we don't, because of lobbying and the caste system. we live in a patent corporate oligarchy, you have no business saying etc blah blah when you are ignorant and haven't bothered to check in to political science.
the government is run by the IRS and the FED, in conjunction with and at the behest of the english crown and the "noble" oligarchy.
So we have a fourth branch of government, a fake, illegal, patently evil and corrupt branch, which is actually in charge of everything else.
It is in fact a con scam.
i do know the difference between a corporation and government, you seem to have not bothered to check out the political science- or- more likely- you do know better and are just lying and trolling.
so what kind of goverment do YOU want then?
Oh! so they are paying the "fair share"?! Are you familiar with Warren Buffet? Are you familiar with his secretary? Are you familiar with fact that he pays lower tax rate than his receptionist? Do you know that a hedge fund manager or a speculator can spend millions of dollars buying exxon-mobil derivatives and paying ZERO $ in sale tax? Is this the fair share? Look this youtube video ip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu5B-2LoC4s
out of curiosity,
What is your opinions about capitalism.
I myself, cannot imagine it working, especially not in it's current form.
I can imagine a resource based economy working.
What would be your strategy to overcome the issues facing us.
I believe capitalism should be as deregulated as possible. though regulations preventing unsafe products and monopolies should still exist. For example the goverment told the banks to give out risky loans with the threat of audit. this should not be allowed because it helped cause the banking collapse. There are many resources blocked by the EPA such as oil reserves that would increase supply. For some reason Obama thought it was a good idea to invest in oil reserves in Brazil instead.
If you let someone redefine terms, then you end up arguing for or against the wrong thing.
Capitalism is what free, honest people do to survive and thrive in the absence of coercion.
What we have now is technically fascism.
Capitalism, with the absence of coercion requires and promotes freedom and individual rights.
Fascism, which is a symbiotic relationship between corporations and state but keeping a pretense at property ownership, relies exclusively on the power of government guns to function, and it is an enemy of freedom and individual rights.
To allow anyone to apply the word capitalism to the fascist system we have now, then use that position to argue against capitalism, is a slick package deal to get you to throw out your own freedom with it.
Hey, if you don't think I deserve freedom and property rights, just come out and say it. But don't propose two false alternatives as if those are the only choices.
There ARE really only two choices: freedom or tyranny. And you can tell what any proposal will lead to by examining one thing: Does it need men with guns pushing people around to make it work? Does it mean taking what a person produces away from him? Does it mean killing or freezing out people who don't want to comply? If the answer is yes, you will know full well what the future of any such proposed system would bring you.
You're definition of capitalism is false to me.
We do have fascism, but we also have capitalism.
Capitalism is the accumulation of capital - surplus value. It's existed since the end of feudalism.
Look up the definition.
Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of individual rights, including property rights, in which all property is privately owned.
OK, using the definition you have given me I can explain why there are problems with capitalism.
All property is privately owned, meaning the workers who have nothing do not have access to the means of production.
The only option for them is to sell their labor.
The profit motive, the desire to accumulate capital, means that business reduce costs and maximize profits.
Their biggest cost is labor, so through outsourcing and technological automation, they reduce the amount of workers they have to pay.
This makes labor superfluous, meaning people can't get jobs.
Except people are born with nothing, yet grow up to excel. And machines improve productivity, so costs go down, people can afford to buy more other stuff, and more jobs get created.
People lose jobs in the U.S. because of stupid regulations, and mostly because we have a player in the game that can and does print unlimited amounts of money.
For evidence, see this video, under 3 minutes long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4fWQnguR1E&