Forum Post: the most ignorant comment ever
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 5:58 p.m. EST by Rob
(881)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
" There is no leadership vacuum. We're all leaders. We are striving for a hive mind where it is the needs/goals/agenda of the vast majority that helps direct change and reform. Only that way will we be able to gain reforms that the vast majority of Americans support."
imrational's comment is far more useful than any from the people here who wish to plot out action steps towards a concrete goal. Making demands of the people in power only solidifies their power, or rather it puts a premium on power, which has not helped humanity thus far in history.
Gee Rob, thanks for quoting me. Could you please explain why my comment was the most ignorant one ever?
Please help cure me of my ignorance.
No leader is a Christian Anonymous Terrorist idea thinking that if there is no leader to arrest and lock up. However they do have leaders, everybody knows this now. They have watched too much Star Trek and the Borg tv and movies and are confused. The leaders don't want to be pointed out for the insane mad men they are and use the collective idiots to protect the insane leaders, kind of like Hitler had his Nazi goons around him but in the end they could not save him. In their sick minds like Hitler and his hang men they are lost in a fantasy much like the Christians who are lost in their fairy tale about a ghost who make the universe and then gets a woman pregnant and she has a leader who is all powerful and yet is nailed to a cross and becomes a ghost again. These mental cases live in a strange mental world and think they can somehow hide and they are really all just very confused Christians who some happen to be CIA, FBI, NSA and secret agents who act more like Hitler's hang men who were as insane as Hitler and went along with his sick fantasy and fair tale of world domination for this ghost named Jesus and because the World Bankers also live in the rare air of insanity they like to give money to death squads who covertly are destroying people by getting other wise rational people to do their dirty work for their blood money.
and how do they lead? Please tell me the model they use.
The way I see it, if someone created a better internet system and was a known person, we'd switch to that. Each city is operating largely on their own with their own organizers.
Hitlers
You have zero grasp of the world and the geo-political environment. Has anyone evr asked you "who is in charge of this place"? Do you know why they ask that question? They are looking for someone to get results, your idea, on the other and is a shoulder shrug and an "I don't know". Yep, that gets things done. Now look up the meaning of a power vacuum. Like it or not, some will be in charge and will take it through deception and or force. Welcome your union brothers and sisters, you now have your leader (you just do not realize it....yet)
Rob, I grasp more than you apparently think I do. Btw, when anyone asked me "who is in charge", you saw my reply. I am. LaoTzu is. Everyone joining together in this movement is a leader of it. No one is telling me to organize a rally in my town. I am doing it on my own, utilizing resources other leaders here are setting up.
As to power vacuum... how's that working for all the fringe elements here? People start shouting to bring down capitalism and we have conservatives explaining to them the faults with such an idea. Same thing with anarchists being educated as to the need for the state.
The major media are struggling because this is a different kind of movement and they can't pigeon-hole it and marginalize it like they normally would. This is a good thing because we need to bring in as many as we can and the moment you name a specific leader, you disenfranchise some.
Will someone take charge via deception or force? Maybe... but then the rest of us, all of us leaders... can opt to just leave and play in a different corner, while still trying to achieve our reforms.
"how's that working for all the fringe elements here? People start shouting to bring down capitalism"
Capitalism doesn't work and never has worked.
It has left 46 million in poverty, 16% underemployed, 1 in every 5 kids in poverty, 25% of all blacks in poverty, 97% of all workers earning a below average income, 52 million without health insurance, and 55% of all workers doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology.
I'm not sure how you can characterize that as anything but a failed system that needs to be replaced.
Democracy works, capitalism doesn't.
We do not have functional capitalism, it has been slowly deconstructed since the founding of the illegal entity known as the Federal Reserve. We had very successful capitalism for over 100 years but power corrupts and in this society just as in socialist and communist countries our system has been corrupted. We should be fighting for the Republic true individual freedom.
The past 30 years the income of the middle class has been stagnant. 1/3rd of the middle class loss income. All the economic growth went to the rich only. That is success for the rich but nobody else.
There's nothing wrong with capitalism. There's something wrong with capitalism having a seat at the legislative table. People confuse "capitalism" with a form of government and THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM.
There is nothing wrong with 46 million in poverty, 16% underemployed, 1 in every 5 kids in poverty, 25% of all blacks in poverty, 97% of all workers earning a below average income, 52 million without health insurance, and 55% of all workers doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology!?!?!
I think that demonstrates that there is nothing right about it!
DemandTheGoodLifeDotCom is right. Capitalism needs to be replaced.
You are right. It isn't perfect, but no one has a better idea. I think a consumerist-socialist democracy seems interesting, and it hadn't been tried yet. But we will see
I think DTGLdotcom's website demonstrates there is nothing right with him.
Gee people are pissed and hurting financially, think I'll start a pyramid scam. Way to go asshole.
Again, capitalism is not a form of government, It's an economic system. It breeds competition and innovation, and those are both awesome things. It also gives anyone the right to a shot at the American dream. The problem here is a rape and abuse of our democratic system, not our economic model.
Look back in time. Capitalism has a lot better track record than other economic models we've had. Yeah, there are problems with it... but every system has flaws and Capitalism has led to huge advances in medicine and life-span, knowledge of our universe, providing more and more food for the masses, etc.
The difference between rich countries and poor countries is not their economic system, it is how long they have been industrializing.
Capitalism couldn't even beat the most corrupt system of them all: soviet communism. Russia was richer in communism than capitalism. They only just recently made it back to the point they were at in 1991 when communism fell.
Medicine, life-span and knowledge of the universe comes from science not from capitalism. And those areas in particular were advanced by the government, not by capitalist firms.
Democracy made that possible, not capitalism. Government organizations are democratic organizations. And if democratically owned organizations can advance medicine, land on the moon, invent the integrated chip that makes computers possible, they can do anything.
Capitalism just allocates the wealth we get from our science unequally. That is all it does. It is just a distribution system of inequality.
That is why it needs to be replaced with democracy, a system of equality. If everyone was paid an equal income for equal effort, you would make either $115k or $230k per year depending on the difficulty of your job.
That is enough to make everyone wealthy. It is at least 3.5 times more than what the average worker makes now, more than what 97% of all workers currently make and the pay for difficult work is higher than the average wage of every profession including surgeons, CEOs, lawyers, and engineers.
Communist Russia was not the utopia you're making it out to be. Socialism led to disparities between wealth as well. The key to Capitalism is that you are granted more freedoms so you have intrinsic motivation to improve yourself and your lot in life.
do you think the moon lander was made for free?!?
I'm not saying that Capitalism is perfect. I'm saying that it is better than the alternatives.
A bigger issue is that democracies defined corporations and the rules that governed them... I think we should be concentrating on things like how we want to redefine corporations so as to avoid the same problems we have now.
"we should be concentrating on things like how we want to redefine corporations"
What redefinition of corporations would enable you to put an end to 46 million in poverty, 16% underemployed, 1 in every 5 kids in poverty, 25% of all blacks in poverty, 97% of all workers earning a below average income, 52 million without health insurance, and 55% of all workers doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology?
"do you think the moon lander was made for free?!?"
I don't advocate not paying people to work!! I'm not sure what you mean by that comment.
"I'm saying that it is better than the alternatives"
It is not better than a democratic economic system.
In a fully democratic society, democracy would run our government and economy. That means everyone would be granted the birth right to the equal freedom to act, speak, and think; to equal votes; to equal treatment under the law; and to EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL EFFORT.
How is our current system better than a democratic system where:
Under what logic is capitalism better than that?
I think it would be an interesting experiment, but we're no where near ready for something like that. We need consensus and something like that would only be endorsed by a small minority.
Kinda curious though, how do you handle distasteful jobs like garbage collection or sewer worker. Right now, they get paid more.
97% would benefit from that system. Why do you think only a small minority would endorse it?
Garbage collectors and sewer workers make more than $115k per year?
I don't know about sewer workers specifically but garbage collection can be automated with existing technology. We already have trucks with lifts that just pick the pails up and dump them in the truck without anyone having to get out of the truck. And we already have the tech for driverless vehicles. When you combine the two, you no longer need garbage men.
that technology is still a ways away. I think only a small minority would endorse it because it is untested. It's a big change and change is scary. Also, a lot of people like status. They want to appear more successful than their peers not to mention that if they acquire more than their peers, it gives them and their children higher odds of survival.
I recommend you reading The Selfish Gene.
driverless car tech is here. google has a fleet of automated cars that have driven 140k miles on the roads of california already. and they just got a law passed in nevada so that it can be made available to everyone
Democratically owned organizations are tested and work in practice. It comprises 30% of the economy. NASA works, the National Science Foundation works, schools work, public universities work, Veterans Hospitals work, police departments work, fire departments work, the FBI works, the CIA works, the military works, the post office works, garbage collection works.
I think if you asked the 50% of workers who make less than $33k per year if they want to continue making $33k per year and the satisfaction of knowing they are making more than everyone who is making $20k per year or if they want to earn $115k or $230k along with the rest of the population, I have a hard time believing that the 75 million workers would choose the $33k.
well, before pushing the idea forward, you have a lot of research to do.
"[in capitalism] you have intrinsic motivation to improve yourself and your lot in life."
We have decades of research on what motivates people. The best way to compensate workers is to pay them well and to pay them a flat salary so that the issue of money is off the table and they can just focus on doing great work.
If you are a slacker and refuse to work as hard as everyone else, you would be fired just like you would today.
But what all the research says, to get workers to take pride in their work and give their best effort, is the job should give them autonomy which treats them like responsible adults, an opportunity to master the tasks they are performing and a transcendent purpose to work towards.
Trying to manipulate people with monetary rewards actually hurts performance in the majority of work we do.
This is backed by studies done in many different fields including research done by the Federal Reserve.
The overwhelming majority of people already get paid this way. Most get paid a flat salary in today's system with little opportunity for advancement within your job. Nearly every union job, for example, tops out in pay after 4 years.
And this is also how doctors are paid at the Mayo Clinic, one of the best hospitals in the world.
View this quick TED Talk on compensation incentives which provides the evidence that the compensation model based on equality will not only work, it will work better than our current system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y
Plus there are a ton of ways to effectively motivate people other than monetary rewards. Google the emerging field of gamification which is applying game mechanics (such as completing set tasks for points to level up and acquire medals and outscore the competition and reach the top of the leaderboard) to all real world activities like work, exercising, dieting, learning, etc.
It makes otherwise boring tasks fun. Advocates believe gamification will transform society and will be a part of everything we do. They think game designers will eventually be in charge of developing sophisticated systems that will turn everything we do in our lives into a fun and engaging experience.
Belts in karate or rank and medals in the military are crude examples of gamification.
View this video for gamification's potential: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NzFCfZMBkU
Thank you for the info!
I don't think the soviet union was a utopia!! It was a totalitarian nightmare.
I'm just saying it performed better economically than today's capitalist Russia.
"The key to Capitalism is that you are granted more freedoms"
Freedom is the ability to act without coercion or restraint. People who have little or no money have little or no freedom to act or do anything.
The ability of a kid in the ghetto to earn money is vastly different than the ability of a kid in the Trump family to earn money. A ghetto kid has little chance at freedom. A trump kid is given unlimited freedom at birth.
A poor girl in a capitalist country who cannot afford tuition has the same lack of freedom to an education as a girl in a Taliban ruled Afghanistan village where education for girls is banned.
Your income dictates how much freedom you have. And in capitalism, most of the income and freedom goes into the hands of a very, very small minority. Only democracy gives you true freedom, because it guarantees you enough income so that lack of income is not a restraint on your life.
I think that economic disasters are a way the system naturally resets itself. Remember the Great Depression and how so many rich lost their fortunes? It led to the Greatest Generation... where people could realize that rich or poor we're the same.
The bailouts stopped that from happening this time.
You want a system that burns itself to the ground every generation?
The people who were not rich lost so much more than the rich did during the great depression. It is cruel to utilize such an ineffective economic system that causes so much suffering.
The bailouts were not fair. But if there were no bailouts, poverty, unemployment, and all of the other economic problems would be so much worse than it is already.
Capitalism is a stone age system. It needs to go. We have the technology and resources to provide everyone with a wealthy lifestyle without ever having any recessions.
Again, if you want that implemented, you need to run it as an experiment in a society before it will become widely embraced
Democratically owned organizations are already proven to work. NASA works, the National Science Foundation works, schools work, public universities work, Veterans Hospitals work, police departments work, fire departments work, the FBI works, the CIA works, the military works, the post office works, garbage collection works.
NASA has a huge track record of coming in over-budget. VA have a bad track record period. Military is known for cost overruns, etc.
those agencies also have different pay grades. You need to convince a community to start with... then move up to a county and then a state.
Most public worker and union jobs have pay grades that top out after 4 years.
Public companies are not perfect. They are going to come in over budget on projects just like private companies do. It is not a perfect system, it is just significantly better than what we got now.
I would like to get OWS to advocate it. A democratic economy has a rich 250+ year history of thinkers like Thomas Paine, John Stuart Mill, George Orwell, Martin Luther King, Albert Einstein and current Senator Bernie Sanders.
The "geo-political" environment is an invention. They tell you a leader is necessary, so you think it is. It isn't. We can come to decisions without a leader. We will all leave this movement as representatives. Some as politicians, some economists, and some every day workers.
We have leaders. Who is listed on the form as president and board of directors when we got tax exempt status? Who are the biggest donors? He who controls the purse strings controls everything. Those are the leaders. The whole 'we don't have any leaders' thing is so that we can't be discredited by attacking one person.
"Why do the hundred rivers turn and rush toward the sea? Because it naturally stays below them
He who wishes to rule over the people must speak as if below them He who wishes to lead the people must walk as if behind them So the Sage rules over the people but he does not weigh them down He leads the people but he does not block their way
The Sage stays low so the world never tires of exalting him He remains a servant so the world never tires of making him its king" - Lao Tzu
Didn't he also say "He who knows does not speak. he who speaks does not know."
"One who speaks does not know
One who knows does not speak
Shut the mouth
Close the gates
Blunt the sharpness
Loosen the knots
Temper the glare
Become one with the dust of the world
This is called
One who know this secret
He is far beyond the cares of men
not a leader, but a speaker for the majority, which Matt works for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw
Usually the mouth piece, I mean puppet, has the masters hand up its ass moving its mouth while the master speaks the words. Do not look behind the curtain.
great point Rob, either way, there will always be puppets. Now, finally, people are seeing them everywhere.
I don't think that's the most ignorant comment ever.
Agreed
LO(OOOOOOOVE the screen name. :)
Well I'd be a little gentler and say it's "naive" but not necessarily ignorant. I'm attempting to do the same thing - call it "hive" or "crowd sourced" or "democracy" or "bottom up", it's all the same thing. But it's naive to think anything can be actually accomplished without some sort of organization.
Iceland just wrote their citizen based Constitution, but they created a citizen represented committee of 25 to do the actual writing.
http://www.JeffBlock2012.com
end bush tax cuts , rebuild America bridges and roads , invest in middle class not banking class thats the occupy wall street message.
Pray for Rob, obviously, he has all this banking money he earned on backs of hard working Americans saving accounts, but it's worthless now; nobody likes him anymore, 'em I close? You just got lost my friend, come back Rob! It's not too late...unlike Wall Street, we forgive.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-wall-st-occupy-dc/#comment-58854
With all the dreck on this forum, this is the most ignorant comment ever? I think not.
I ask you to imagine a once free America. Imagine an America which promoted individual liberty and personal responsibility, not a welfare state. Imagine an America where the Constitution applied to every person and every case, no matter how bad the crime or criminal at suspect. Imagine an America restrained by the Constitution, due process and the rule of law. Imagine an America devoid of secret watch lists, secret prisons and secret assassinations.
Imagine a moral society which only engaged in just war and only as a last resort. Imagine an America, where the decision to go to war, is actually one declared by congress. Imagine an America which never endorsed the use of preventive wars to promote peace. Imagine an America where torture was never acceptable, even if called "enhanced" interrogation techniques. Imagine an America in which a warrant was always required to search or seize persons or property. Imagine an America which respected the writ of habeas corpus and condemned indefinitely detaining individuals.
Imagine an America where prosperity wasn't derived from private printing presses, but from true wealth. Imagine an America not ravished by endlessly spending a fiat currency in pursuit of economic growth; all the while promoting the welfare and warfare state. Imagine an America which encouraged savings at the same time destroying that very possibility by devaluing their currency through the deceitful act of controlled monetary inflation. Imagine an America where coins were still worth their weight. Imagine an American in which gold and silver were actually legal tender.
Imagine an America where children are not arrested for front yard lemonade stands. Imagine an America where you couldn’t be arrested and jailed for gardening on your property. Imagine an America without checkpoints where blood could be drawn against one's will, and without warrant. I ask you to imagine an America where citizens could make the simple decision to drink raw milk. Imagine an America which valued personal choice and responsibility above dictating morality through law. Imagine an America which allowed companies to actually protect their property and customers. Imagine an America where individuals actually had the right to their life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as long as they didn’t endanger others.
Imagine if rights are actually derived from creation, and not from government.
Imagine now an America in which citizens understood and respected the experiment of liberty. Imagine now an America which still embraces the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. Imagine now an America where the wretched refuse, the homeless, those searching for a New Colossus could venture to experience liberty. Imagine now America no longer safeguarded the liberty they sought, but only the security and secrecy of the state.
Imagine an America where ignorance isn’t sold as wisdom; and tolerance not delivered by force. Imagine an America where politicians stood behind American principles. Imagine an America where oath to the Constitution was taken seriously and always upheld. Imagine an America of resounding liberty; not one of ever incrementally increasing tyranny. Imagine America as she once was: free and prosperous.
Now try to imagine an idea. Imagine an idea so powerful, so strong in it conviction, no army or government could stop it. Imagine a return of the respect of the Constitution. Imagine a return to due process and the rule of law in all cases. Imagine a return to sound currency and sound monetary policy. Imagine the abolishment of partaking down the dangerous path of legislating morality. Imagine a return to a foreign policy of freedom and not of preemptive wars and nation building. Imagine the return to the ideals of extending friendship to all, and having entangling alliances with no one. Above all else, Imagine Liberty and understand the responsibility having it demands from each of us. Imagine America not as your Empire but as a Republic.
Freedom is a relatively new idea, liberty a young experiment. Imagine this youthful ideal lost to simple apathy and content. Imagine a chance to restore this ideal. Imagine if we had the chance to Restore America Now.
Imagine a Revolution. I'm willing to help lead!
Idea: Collect a list of the US corporations who have had large profits for the last two years but who have done no US hiring, and/or have tried to manipulate their union members to reduce benefits or pay. Circulate a list of products or financial tools made by these companies. Encourage Occupy WallStreet supporters agree to try to boycott these products.
Krugman and Stiglitz know the way
Bull shit, you are all pawns.
"Hive mind"? LOL.
NOT
Not every one is a leader, everyone will never be one, some are however, and anyone can be a great one if they choose to be.
what needs to be recognized is that the leadership is a group of greedists whose only goal in life is to accumulate as much wealth as possible without doing any actual work to make it and the more nefarious the means the better.
When you learn to identify these greedists you will see how they work and the simple rules of law that will stop them in their tracks. Many of which were on the books prior to Ronnie Ray Gun coming in and shooting our government full of holes.
we don't need leaders, we need technocracy and to abolish money
Your Right and Your Wrong at the same time. A leader is needed but it doesn't need to be a person. An IDEAL, a singular goal that all persons get can behind for the sake of our country and the world. That the Economy belongs to the people. SOVEREIGN RULE over the economy by the people, not private interests and the elimination of money in public campaining and service.
You call this Ignorant? You all support the very policies that got us into this financial mess! You think that nothing is your responsibility, and that everything should be handed to you by your government. Its communism at it's finest. You are nothing but communist pigs!
PoliticsGuru, Who are you talking to?!? I'm a Libertarian and support capitalism. Before you start yelling "commies", please realize the goal of this movement. This movement is to encourage ALL Americans to band together and press for governmental reform and eliminate corruption. Past that... meh. Everyone has their own agenda.
Believe me, we have more than enough on our plates just trying to fix corruption.
In the meantime, please don't insult others. We're trying to encourage diverse ideologies (yours included). We're all going to have to get on board if we want this to succeed. If only one side does, then we won't have the numbers to achieve our goals (or the other side will actively fight us) and we'll lose this chance at reform. Also, if this only represents one side and it happens to win, then we could end up with something worse than we started with.
Again, we are in this together. We need as many involved as possible and with diverse ideologies present so we keep everyone honest.
You can't say you don't have leaders when someone is running this website, creating the daily agenda, and taking the donations. Does anyone know who those people are? Maybe you should.
This site is owed by the FSLN
A socialist political party in Nicaragua? That's comforting.
ROFL It is amazing! They (FSLN) has collected over $1m so far. do you think any of the protesters have seen this money? LOL Click the donate button, then out something in the box for a donation and click again. FOLLOW THE MONEY!
"over $1m so far"
where is the proof of that?
No, this is the best way. This has put everyone out of their depth in trying to classify and pidgeonhole it.
This has also been described as an open source movement.
Do you know what open source software is?
Have you ever used or seen a Wordpress blog?
Have you ever used or heard of Mozilla Firefox?
How about Open Office or the messenger program Pidgin?
Those are programs written collaboratively and improved upon by the suggestions and contributions of the people who use them.
And they are free, I might add.
Those have nothing to do with leadership and government. Ever hear the term "just winging it" have you ever built a structure without a foreman. Sail cruise ship without a captain? Lead a battle without a general? Heck, you cannot even run a burger king without a manager? Why? Nothing gets done because no one has direction. Wikipedia is open source, but no university will allow you to use it for citations. I am quite familiar with Linux and I know the benefits of open source, a movement like this does not fit for open source.
the captain is not the leader on a cruiseship, the company is. do you think the captain can go where he wants? the general is not the leader of a battle, the politicians are. do you think a general can give the orders he wants? the manager is not the leader of burger king, the investors are. do you think the manager can distribute the profit to who he wants? private property is exploitation and the dictator is who owns stuff. he HIRES a leader who "leads" to do his bidding. no worker ever chose the leader of a company, the managment gets imposed on him by the owners. all those examples you mention are leaders imposed on the subordinates by political power, by subordination. and with those examples you want to argue for this movement to chose leaders? ridiculous.
The captain is the final authority when the ship is at sea. When there is a problem both crew and passengers go to him for guidance, leadership. On the field of battle the general is the final authority and if there are things that need to be dealt with the soldiers as well as civilians look to him for guidence, leadership. At burger king you need to know when your shift starts and the schedule for the week, who do you go to for the answers? Seriously, are you that..........
That sounds very authoritarian. Are you in favor of big, authoritarian government or small government?
Also, a movement like this may not want a leader because leaders can be character-assasinated, physically assasinated, arrested, co-opted, bought or otherwise destroyed.
its best not to have leaders. the most ignorant comment ever? whats ignorant is you trolling this forum.
it is naive to think something can be accomplished without organization, we do need to organize.. ihave been begging for sub forums and wiki for two weeks now but i am finished with that and now just looking for any good techie to put up a forum and a wiki, and assume we will all abandon this site as soon as that happens.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
Why do you keep listing all of these links? I thought it had something to do with proving that the evil Tea Baggers are alive and well.
because the forum is flooded and these are the threads/ issues that need serious attention. I; creating organization since the site admin is too incompetent to give us sub forums.
true. i've been asking for that too - there are too many threads and there is no organization to them. you can't sort them at all.
as soon as we find somebody who will put up a wiki and sub forums i imagine there will be an exodus away from here, its too bad.. they couldn't get their act together.
A guy called AN0NYMOUS tried starting a message board previously, but it didn't seem to get any posts.
right. so how can i trust that guy? I'd need to see a good strong showing to make sure the person was on the level ... their FB account and their posts here or etc.. I am not going to be stupid and walk off into some closet with a CIA plant...
lol, which is probably why it didn't take off. I've had on online YouTube presence since it started, but I don't know enough to get things rolling on the board front myself. Dammit.
yeah but at least they mostly got rid of those complete scumbags who were putting up really obscene posts, one after the other.
well. yeah... the worst of the trolling has been handled.
Do you have faith in humanity? (Yes, I know - a loaded question)
i don't do faith. I read 3000 textbooks so that i would never again need to guess or have faith or have trust or look to some authority to tell me or have a belief or etc.
I HOPE for the best. So far humanity in general proves that I'm wasting my time pretty much 99 percent of the time. I keep fighting day after day for 20 years. Its neat that people woke up to the corporate oligarchy. its pathetic they went and demonstrated and didn't even get a wiki put up first.
Do i have "faith" in humanity- no. I'm faithless, and i'm burned out, but i keep plugging away at it not because i think its likely to work but because its the only thing you can do if you know what i know and still be ethical... it would be evil of me not to fight every last bit i can.. i have a responsibility to humanity and to the knowledge i carry.
I suppose in that sense I'm not exactly the best rep for any social movement. i have been throwing pearls to swine for 20 years now. my would have been allies are infantile idiots that are out demonstrating instead of working on a paradigm shift. I hope that answers your question...
:)
On the other hand, there are philosophers that say - 'this is only a game. it's all illusion'. all of these world events, they're not real. no wonder i'm confused.
I hear you. I used to be a public school teacher (8th grade) until it depressed me so completely that I stopped sleeping for three months straight. Since you love to read, haven't you read anything esoteric? I find that if I concentrate too much on things in the concrete world of day-to-day reality, it weighs me down too much. I also have to delve into spiritual topics like yoga, philosophy, consciousness shift, etc. Otherwise I think I would give up.
yes, i do have assorted esoteric interests and etc...
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Have you seen the Spirit Science series on YouTube and another one I liked - What the bleep do we know?
i have seen "what the bleep do we know"? but not spirit science. ?link us?
here's the first episode http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDMzvJOu9vQ
No what we need is direction and focus. Choosing our own non-moveon.org affiliated leaders will do that. If we want to eliminate the threats to our capitalist system, then we need to be organized. This hive mind bullshit is too easy to manipulate.
No....no....is it easier to manipulate one person or one million? The Tea Party has been co opted by doing leaders and partys and all that stuff.
The so called "leaders" were imposed onto them! They were hardly selected by them at all dude.
Yeah....Agree with that. I only get disappointed with the ones who fell in line. You know what? I really liked the Tea Party when it started. I didnt agree with all of it....but I just liked people taking a stand. When Glenn Beck started chiming in on it....I couldnt stomach that. I cant stomach him is maybe the thing. And Palin was a boat person from the republican party looking for a place to come ashore. Trump is just goofy.
Yeah thats why I have been going "we need to pick and choose our leaders now" before sorry bastards like sharpton and pelosie get into the mix. I'm willing to compromise with people like ratigain and grayson because those guys "get it",but I also don't necessarily endorse them either. If we can let them in,perhaps over a little bit of time we can help them see fully what we are about. I just think that there are some in that circle that get it(or perhaps they are better at manipulation than I give them credit for,but listening to people like ratigain, I really feel that he and grayson "get it")Until we do, we do need to focus on people that aren't there representing orgs like moveon.org and the like.
Bernie Sanders gets it too
Im a little weird on bernie. Im just not sure what his agenda is.
What I like, honestly, is that he is an independent so there is no D next to his name. Dont get me wrong, the guy is very far to the left but I dont have much question he very passionately cares about people, and that is the important thing for me.
Ok cool man, ill have to go check him out then.
moediggity, the moment you choose one leader, you disenfranchise everyone who disagrees with the choice. Right now, we need numbers. We are currently forming communication networks and organizing from the ground up. The direction and focus is elimination of corruption of our government by big money... pretty much EVERYONE agrees with that.
As we get organized, some ideas will gather steam and others will wither from lack of majority support. Some people will be accepted as leaders for their 5 minutes of fame to get a specific message across. This reduces the chance we will be co-opted or our leaders corrupted.
We can't run before we can walk.
Ever heard of a Democracy? WE THE PEOPLE choose who is worthy. Not the other way around.
This is how a movement becomes Hijacked. When a so called "Leader" is choosen for us, rather than WE THE PEOPLE put one in the position of power with us, not for us.
Agree. And there is a general assembly and there are also people on committees to decide things....but the key is everyone has input...it is important and empowering.
Yes absolutely. It is ok for the 99% to be One, and still disagree. This is what a democracy is. This is how our Forefathers envisioned it in the first place.
I think we go to voting and all of that after the corporate money leaves. Unless there are candidates out there that take none. But what prevents them from taking it while in office?
Please tell me what animal out there does not have a hierarchy? There is always a leader.
Rob, your question is misleading. There are many living things that do not have hierarchies. Why limit it to animals? Let me answer for you... because you chose a self-serving analogy that doesn't apply very well.
Are humans plants?
doesn't matter. Humans are a form of life, and we know of lifeforms that exist in cooperation without hierarchies. To say that humans are not those lifeforms doesn't matter because humans are still different than other animals.
For example, you could say chickens have a pecking order... but humans are different than chickens so why would they be required to have a pecking order as well?
Again, you chose a poor analogy.
Evolution, now there is one that does not.
In a hive the 1 tells the rest what to do. If ignorance is bliss, then there are some stupid-happy people in this movement.
I think you misunderstood the analogy. Think of the 'queen' as the goals and the hive working together and doing their part to satisfy the goal.
A hive mind - hmm, brings to mind a certain marxist philosophy. NO ONE on this forum is going to be able to come up with a consensus that a 'vast majority' of any group of people will agree with.
Part of the problem now is that the country is too damn big, and DC gets to loot, lie, corrupt and rule from afar. Think about Oklahoma versus Connecticut versus Alaska. Maybe it's time to secede.
LOCAL POLITICS is our future. We are in a global economic collapse. U.S.A. has become the Roman empire. The Romans didn't fall because they were invaded, they fell because they rotted from within.
I disagree. The fact that Occupations are occurring all over the country is evidence that people can reach a consensus on at least one thing, that our government needs to change. There are other things too.. like overturning some of the SCOTUS's rulings regarding corporations, the need for paper-trail generating voting machines, etc.
I'm at the point where I don't think the system can be changed. It needs to come down, become decentralized. Even on this site - look at the polarization, the conflict. It seems most people are coming down in two camps 1) progressive, 2) libertarian. The difference between the two is that 1) still has faith in the system; and 2) doesn't.
You're confusing Libertarian with Anarchist. If you notice, there are actually a lot of moderates here not being dragged down into the two camps. The extremists are louder and therefore draw the eyes more. That's just illusion though.
Perhaps so. In the political arena, I consider myself a libertarian. It is difficult to be optimistic about the future, but I've also been studying spiritual topics like sacred geometry and consciousness, so I feel that this worldwide change is all culminating simultaneously for the reason that we must evolve, or we will literally destroy ourselves.
I admit, I am inherently distrustful of all current systems we now have. Especially those of the socialist persuasion. Einstein said, "We cannot solve problems at the same level we created them".
You might really like the book, "NonZero: The Logic of Human Destiny"
There's a lot I don't agree with, but it is a fascinating read and I think you should read it.
Cool, thanks. Interesting description - will look into it.
I think "potato" in reference to a japanese pop music video was the music ignorant comment I've ever seen.
Joking aside, what's your gripe with this?