Forum Post: We want MAIN STREET Capitalism! No more WALL STREET Capitalism!
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 9:29 p.m. EST by thesoulgotsoldontheroadtogold
(148)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
The only way to diminish corporate power is to bring power back to the local level, closer to the people, the 99% . The only thing a corporation is designed to do is grow - like a cancer. A cancer upon the people and natural resources of the planet. It is not built to care about human rights or the environment. It is built to destroy human rights and the environment (our real wealth), in the name of corporate profit (fake wealth). You cannot eat money, you can only eat food from the environment. Money cannot love you back, only human beings can love you back. What America is doing is confusing corporations with capitalism... anti-corporate is not anti-capitalist! It is because of corporate brainwashing that people believe this. It's false advertising, people! Capitalism worked great before it became infected by the corporation, the ever-growing cancer. When you have many decentralized local economies, centralized geographically aka centralized on our numberless American MAIN STREETS - instead of being centralized upon a few gargantuan corporations aka centralized upon WALL STREET - that's when capitalism REALLY works! Really WORKS! For EVERYONE, not just for the 1% who were ruthless enough to climb it to the top! When you have decentralized localized economies, that's when you actually have real competition between different entrepreneurs! Wall Street Protestors, I beseech you, please tell the world: We want localized decentralized capitalism, centralized on our MAIN STREETS, no more of this corporate capitalism, centralized on WALL STREET. Please wave a sign out there that says "anti-corporate is not anti-capitalist" and for the love of God, please explain this differentiation to the masses Re-localize us! =)
a thought just occured to me: be realistic, the only way to break the corporations is stop supporting them, that would mean everyone's involvement... but as soon as the protestors begin to shout break the chains buy local... i'm afraid the pepper spray will mysteriously materialize in large doses....
Honestly, after reading all of these, I think the best place to start is to decentralize the currency system, and elimnate debt based currency. Let the state's print their own currency and bring back Free Banking. When that happens, the localities will be far more able to engage in trade without the penalties of debt to private interests. This will enable a LOT more trade at the local level.
eventually sure why not? but maybe that's like a generation or two away if at all.... not saying its not a good idea, why not live in a system like that? how much worse could it be, considering the current system? BUT, to be realistic you have to start from the beginning, and really those things that are needed FIRST are the things that many in this movement already seem to be calling for, like taking money out of politics, ending corporate personhood, etc.... the fully decentralized local economies are a nice goal... if even a quarter, even a tenth of that goal is reached.... we'd be in much better shape than we are today.... today the trend is toward ever increasing corporate biggie size domination... so all I'm saying is that the way to fight that domination is to (begin to) reverse the trend. DECENTRALIZATION is a key word for this movement though, if it wants to succeed. I highly stress that last point. DECENTRALIZATION OF ECONOMIC POWER. Main Street Capitalism, no more Wall Street Capitalism. buy local, boycott corporations. break the chains, buy local. that type of stuff.
And another one. I was in ARgentina when it fell due to Parasitic banking practices due to the IMF and World Bank.
That scared the crap out of me.
Anyway, here's what they've done to adapt.
http://youtu.be/PDKeQ4IACJ4
This is a good place to start
http://youtu.be/pWfrnfJmP5w
Go for it! Become an entreprenuer. It is a bit more difficult today with the onslaught of federal and state regulations over the last 2-3 years, but still doable.
Don't let that discourage you. Think big. Work hard. Don't expect anyone to subsidize your efforts. And you WILL be successful. Maybe not the first time, but you will learn as you go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voPEVnNd3Wo Check out my New Song and Video called "WE'RE THE 99%" Thanks, Barry bdbutler@centurylink.net
The official Occupy Wall Street list of demands describes the demands in too complex detail. People are used to bumper sticker messages. Let's dump our elitist tendencies: we don't need to quote M. L. K. Jr: we don't need to point to videos "to inspire you".
Demand #1 is waaaaaaaay too convoluted. I hate it with a passion. It reads like it was written by an infiltrator bent on discouraging all who read it.
And we must point to what we will do if our demands are not met, i.e. we will continue to occupy places like Wall Street; we will organize specifically to vote people out of office; we will have runs on banks; we will boycott businesses; we will block traffic during rush hour when our crowds are too big to crush, things like that.
We also need to make use of our conscience, especially since we are specifically asking Wall Street to HAVE a conscience. Here's how I propose we rewrite our demands:
-Demand #1: Stop all the wars and bring 100% of our troops home; shut down illegal/immoral military bases around the world, including warships threatening countries, and repel the Patriot Act. How can we be taken seriously if we say nothing about the killing and crippling of innocent people being carried out in our name using our money, and if we sacrifice our civil liberties to provide cover for war profiteers?
The money we save from the wars and bases can immediately be used to take care of our returning troops with medical treatment, infrastructure jobs, , business loans, etc. We want our military on our side, not on Wall Street's side. If riots break out, we want our military to refuse to shoot us.
-Demand #2: Cut the "defense" budget in half and use the money we save to hire troops and other Americans on infrastructure development jobs (schools, bridges, roads...)
-Demand #3: Prohibit investment banks which issue securities and commercial banks which collect deposits from merging or overlapping and reinstate conflict of interest prohibitions against investment bankers serving as officers of commercial banks. (That's all we need from the originally published demand #1)
Demand #4: Reverse the Citizen United court decision by banning ALL corporate political contributions.
Demand # 5: Pass the Buffet rule on fair taxation; close all corporate tax loopholes and prohibit hiding funds overseas. The money saved must be used to develop jobs.
Demand #6: Appropriately regulate the Securities and Exchange Commission and create serious oversight with clear penalties.
Demand #7: Remove 100% of access of PAID lobbyists to the White House, and to our congresspeople and senators...with clear penalties.
Demand #8: Make it illegal for former or current government regulators to work for industries which they regulated...with clear penalties.
Demand #9: Eliminate "personhood" status for corporations.
Demand #10: Prosecute the criminals who crashed our banks and illegally took our homes from us.
--Please contact Amir Dread on Facebook or write to nydread@yahoo.com
demand # 8: perfect! I bet most people in the country don't even know that goes on! How vile and brazen is that, huh???? To regulate the same industry you have a financial interest in???? and demand # 9: absolutely necessary, along with taking money out of politics. These are the types of changes that will help to bring power back to the local level, i.e. back to the people, back to Main Street, and away from Wall Street.
I absolutely agree 100%. I've been saying this for awhile - if we want leadership that is responsive, it must be LOCAL. Even the state level is probably too far away to keep from getting corrupt and out of control and to address people's needs and represent.
We should have local schools, local organizations, local food systems, community networks. This is the only way we will have accountable leadership. And ultimately, it's also the only way we will change our relationship with the environment - e.g., grow our own food where we know it is healthy, and not GMO food from a huge polluting agrifarm or stressed/abused animals from a CAFO.
more state power is better than more federal power, (there's an amendment that says that federal power is limited to x y and z, and any other unnumbered unmentioned powers all go to the states), and more local power is better than more state power... it is not an -ism or a political orientation, to claim that local power is people power. It is like I've said before, a simple fact of geography and physics. Nothing more nothing less, no reason to attach a political label to it. A human being cannot actually be there to monitor his interests, when the decisions that affect him/her are being made in DC, hundreds or thousands of miles away. You will always find that the more you centralize a large sovereign entity's decision making hub into one single geographic area, the more people lose out in the process, because when the cat is away the mice will play. We the people are the cat, and the mice are overruning DC.
Absolutely!! One of my huge areas of concern is food freedom. The federal government is out of control in all areas, but they keep passing and enforcing laws and regulations that prevent people from buying food that is healthy, local, free of GMO's, and organic.
yes, as concerns economic localization of resources.... food and energy, are the most important ones to address, because those are the things people need most, and the things that can be most easily used to control people: if you control the food, (and water), and energy, you control the people.
small businesses, not big corporations - are the ones who can innovate products and services in these vital areas of food and energy. This one awesome guy in Milwaukee is growing food in the city using aquaponics and employs a ton of young people, is teaching them to be independent and productive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qZPwBPAqks
yes! and what about the oil eating bacteria that the federal government did not allow to be used in bp oil spill, that was an innovation from a small company too! What? You didn't know about the oil eating bacteria? Well now you know! Google it! Are you angry yet?
ofcourse not - they didn't want to clean that up, they wanted to cover it up. and they got a double bonus by making the gulf sick with corexit - all of the people and the wildlife. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBOWoSBCyYQ
Totally agree!!!!!
This is what I've been saying to everyone who sticks a mike in my face down there.
I'm no Communist, but our system has to work for everyone.
Right wing propagandists are working overtime to paint anyone who doesn't believe in their weird free market utopia as a "socialist".
In a way, it's the perverted mirror image of the out of control left of the sixties who called anyone with traditional values or pride in the military a "fascist".
yes, politicians always try to bad mouth the very things that would bring power to the people, paint them black and evil, but all we simply have to do is listen to our hearts and minds, and follow common sense... any -ism is vulnerable to abuse... I'm not a fan of communism either, communism is even more pretentious than capitalism,(all -isms are pretentious to a degree) at least capitalism admits in its very essence and definition, that human nature is self-interest, not the communal interest....
Keep up the good work owser's. An idea; if we truly are the 99 percent why even bother making changes within gov't or corporate structures. While you are setting up governance within the movement, wouldn't it be fun to also set up new systems of commerce? How many sheds, storage units, attics and basements are crammed floor to ceiling with stuff, and you need to buy what from walmart? Shop local, don't reinvent the wheel, commerce is easy until the corporation gobble them up. OK you've got Wall street. Now get to work.
it should be local, and we don't need any more trinkets. heck, this year i'm giving food and wine i made myself instead of crap from china.
in order to really be free, we need local currencies that are sound. sound money always benefits the little guy. it's the toxic derivatives, subprime mortgages, and fiat currency that enslaves people. we're better off with barter - that's what's happening in greece - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qZPwBPAqks
If you keep capitalism, the crisis will continue.
Dis-empowering corporations isn't going to create jobs because the demand necessary won't suddenly appear.
It won't resolve the poverty either because capitalism has no obligation to help the poor and disabled.
Capitalism is about making a profit, whether that means outsourcing and automating your business, or clearing a rainforest, or drilling for oil..
Capitalist countries are constantly plundering smaller countries in an effort to expand the capitalist economy, for most of capitalism's existence it has been locked in an eternal resource war.
Localizing capitalism won't work, because capitalism requires the expansion of productivity which consumes all resources within the area.
Sustainable energy isn't profitable, so it never receives the necessary incentive.
Private property means that one person can own 1000 acres will millions of people can own none.
I think you'll find with enough thought on this subject that capitalism is what bred corporatism.
Speaking metaphorically, it's the outlet that is faulty, not the appliance.
Tinkering within capitalism won't resolve the crisis of capitalism, you need to replace the outlet so to speak.
Capitalism is simply free trade, free asociation, combined with property rights. It is not PREscriptive. Capitalism doesn't tell you what to do. It simply DEscribes and acknowledges the fact that in any political/economic system people will always seek a profit, and this is not a bad thing. If a baker couldn't make a profit, he would stop baking bread (only bake for himself). He needs the profit, because he cannot live on bread alone. We specialize in trades, devision of labor.
Besides, what constitutes profit? It is not only about money. You make a trade if the other item is more valuable to you (it is subjective). It is NOT a zero-sum game. If two people trade a CD for a book, they BOTH are better of. They BOTH make a profit, because they value the other item more then the one they had. If that weren't the case, they wouldn't made the trade (voluntarily). Ultimately ALL profit is psychological. That's why even altruists make a profit, because they LIKE it when they can help people.
There is nothing inherently wrong with free market capitalism, although I'd prefer the term voluntaryism.
as long as both parties benefit, and are better off for it.... but when both parties no longer benefit and one takes severe advantage of the other, that's when the government (which is there to protect the rights of the people) must step in, and say enough with the economic theory, we need to inject some common sense real life practical tweaks into the process. If what is happening is not benefiting the majority of the population, and the government is not stepping in to do it's job, then it has sold out to the corporation. How many times do we have to shout, like a a broken record, "CORPORATIONS ARE NOT PEOPLE"!!!???
".. but when both parties no longer benefit and one takes severe advantage of the other"
Which is never the case, because if both parties feel they would not benefit from the trade, the transaction simply wouldn't take place. Answer me this: If 'very poor' wants to make a voluntary transaction with 'very rich', what would ever be the reason to prevent that?
"How many times do we have to shout, like a a broken record, "CORPORATIONS ARE NOT PEOPLE"!!!???"
Very very true. Corps are not people. They are legal entities with limited liabilities, created BY GOVERNMENT. A corporation in and of itself is a form of regulation. That's why you should join me in unregulated free market capitalism (or voluntaryism, or market anarchy, pick a label), because in a free market, corporations in their current form would not exist.
blah...................
Okay, you win! :-)
Well said.
None of the issues being protested on wall street will go away as long as capitalism remains.
You say there is nothing inherently wrong with free market capitalism.
I don't know if you read my previous post or not, because I put forth multiple issues relating to directly to capitalism.
It's history of inequality, it's incessant need for expansion, it's relationship to the environment, it's failure to accommodate the needs of the people, all these things are issues, yet you say 'there's nothing wrong'.
lol.
"You say there is nothing inherently wrong with free market capitalism."
Indeed, because as Febs pointed out, "the heart of capitalism is that two entities can agree to enter into contract to trade their goods and or services with each other and other entities."
You really want to outlaw that? You are attacking a strawman-version of what you think capitalism is. The only thing stopping capitalism from working properly is violence, especcially from the governemnt, because the government has a monopoly on using violence on peacefull citizens. The only thing everybody should focus on is finding ways to minimize violence.
Capitalism has often be called utopian, and to the extend that there will always be some amount of violence and coercion, this is true. But this doesn't mean it's not something we should strive for. The same way we strive for things like perfection and objectivity (which are also practical impossibilities).
You didn't put forth multiple issues - you made blanket assertions based on your belief. The heart of capitalism is that two entities can agree to enter into contract to trade their goods and or services with each other and other entities.
Everyone only enters into a trade if it will benefit them - and you call this "greed" even though its how humanity has functioned since time immemorial. Greed is demanding something at the expense of others - it is not voluntarily agreeing to trade when both parties believe they will be better off for having done it.
You seem to think inequality itself is bad. Why? Forced inequality - sure. But inequality itself...how is that a moral wrong? Everyone is born with different abilities and talents, everyone develops different skills and hobbies as they get older. All of this creates vast inequalities in the performance of certain actions over the spectrum of humanity.
Some of those skills, talents, and knowledge will be rare and that makes them more valuable than others. Thus people will offer more for them than they will for others or other combinations. This is life and you're complaining about the variety and diversity of humanity.
the majority of people have nothing.
They own no land, therefore they have no means of production. They are unable to make and sell anything except their labor, which is becoming superfluous thanks to outsourcing (aka free-trade)
There is no opportunity for them even to put there foot in the door. 'no problem' according to you. Complete 'Let them eat cake' attitude.
I wish that skills and talents meant something.
What skills and talents does a landlord have. the ability to hold a piece of paper he inherited, wait a dozen years for his income from rent to accumulate, buy another piece of land. rinse and repeat.
That isn't skillful or talented, yet highly rewarded.
New biologists and engineers can't find work. So much for skills and talents.
Blanket assertions? I gave you multiple examples of how capitalism fails in it's function - with fact and real examples. you continue to ignore them.
EVERYTHING IS FINE KEEP SHOPPING
Now you're assuming my positions on charity because I disagree with you on the economic system. I donate my time and money to help others. Charity is on the personal level and it cannot be forced.
Depends on the landlord - at least the skills and talent to buy property and the drive to try better their lot in life. If you think being a landlord is that easy - especially a sole proprietor why don't you try it sometime so you can wake at 2 am to go fix the plumbing? Or pay property taxes on a place which isn't occupied so it is costing you money for months and months?
I am sure the life of others seems so easy when you can just imagine what they do instead of living in their shoes.
How is there no opportunity for people to put their foot in the door? Where do you get this idea? Are you saying nobody has ever had a first job?
There isn't enough jobs in existence to support the population.
New jobs can't be invented because the unemployed do not own land therefore do not own the means of production.
The only way they can survive in this society is to sell their labor (which is essentially slavery - work for the wealthy or freeze to death)
Because capitalism emphasizes profit above human needs, it seeks to reduce labor costs. Today, we see outsourcing and technological automation as a result.
This has made labor superfluous, meaning unemployment has risen, the minimum wage has stagnated while the cost of living has increased.
There are freshly graduated biologists and engineers who cannot find work.
Even if you suggest that qualified engineers and biologists should go and work at McDonald's, even such a menial job is no longer guaranteed. I speak from direct experience.
And the fact that people who have worked diligently to achieve academic success should have all their talents wasted on the production line represents a flawed system.
Capitalism doesn't prescribe anything. Stop insinuating that it does. Within free market capitalism you can be as altruistic as you like. Stop presenting capitalism as if it where a person that is forcing you to act in a certain way. A lot of people give to charity. Most people did not hop on the big bandwagon of greed, but have a normal job that provides for themselves and their families (and benefit society by providing a good or a service).
And of course automation makes a lot of CURRENT jobs obsolete. What do you suggest? Going back to copying books with quills? Ploughing the land with bare hands instead of using ploughing machinery? The disappearance of jobs in one area doesn't mean new and different kind of jobs can't appear elsewhere. Maybe even more pleasant jobs, like making art. Automation makes product cheaper, so you'll have to work less hard to obtain them. Automation and the division of labor HAS created an abundance of goods. Just try to make a pencil with your bare hand, without any tools and help from other. It's virtually impossible.
If there is no need for an X amount of engineers and biologists, then yes, they should find something else to do.
One of the root causes of unemployment IS the minimum wage.
Anyway, every example you bring up stems from the current NONE-free market system. Health care is highly regulated, education is highly regulated, etc. Please distinguish between the current corporatist system and free market capitalism in a philosophical sense.
The current jobs are obsolete, there isn't enough jobs in existence to support the population.
There are millions of unskilled, homeless, disabled people.
what do YOU suggest.
"what do YOU suggest"
Free the market completely.
A few examples: end minimum wage, end price floors and ceilings, end tarifs, end all subsidies and special favors (which is what bigs corps strive on), end corporate law (= limited liability). And first and formost: end legal tender laws, and the Fed as a whole.
It doesn't create jobs.
Labor is superfluous because of technological automation and outsourcing.
The destruction of the environment and the wars continue because the capitalist economy still requires constant expansion.
Millions of people are still impoverished, homeless and hungry. Making the wages 5c an hour doesn't mean the demand for their labor will increase, nor will 5c an hour meet the rising cost of living.
Wrong answer. Doesn't address the real issues.
Again, you are talking about the current system. Please stop doing that.
Outsourcing is employing people overseas. You can complain that we are loosing jobs, but it's helping THEM! Borders are silly, and another example of coercion. Besides, the product made through outsourcing come back cheaper then they would be if they were created here, which is a good thing.
"Millions of people are still impoverished, homeless and hungry."
Again these emotional appeals, as if this is MY fault. Yes, IF there is only x amount of work, then lowering wages won't solve anything. But it IS a fact that minimum wage results in unemployment. That isn't even controversial. Jobs are created by enterpreneurs. I am not an enterpreneur, so I don't ask me how to create jobs. What I do know that the combined whisdom of enterpreneurs by far outweighs the ability of the government to create jobs.
And again, what is YOUR solution?
I'm all for no borders and an international community, but I am also for equality.
My solution - first of all, is to restore the democratic process, out of the hands of the plutocratic government and wall street and back to the people.
I think we both agree there. We both want a massive change in how things are run.
The difference in opinion we have is that I don't see capitalism working in any form, free market or otherwise, but that's not important right now.
The videos you showed me are very interesting, and that guy has some very good ideas, some sound a lot like socialism to me, though he probably prefers the name free-market capitalism for whatever reason.
I still think that having a currency which is completely abstract of all human value is a problem. Making bits of paper represent a higher value than food and water is very dangerous and unsustainable.
But anyway, for the solution is to simply keep thinking about this and attend demonstrations and protests, to boycott, to strike (I'm unemployed anyway) to reduce our involvement in the current system because we both know it's not working, even though we attribute it to different things.
Last thing: "...but I am also for equality."
I'm not. Not economic equality anyway. People by nature have different skills and trades. I'm a simple computer programmer, and I don't mind at all that a brain-sergeon makes more than I do. Of course I understand that there will always be people that need the help of others to survive. Now, what if nobody would want to help the needy? In any system, these people would die. Saying that the government should take care of them doesn't help in this case, because voters as well as the people they elect do not care. The fact that welfare programs exist, to me is proof that a significant amount of people DO care for the sick and needy. I believe that my system will create way more jobs and prosperity. The really poor and needy people that remain can be helped trhough charitable organisations (which there will be more of, because in the current system people look at the government to take care of these problems).
"My solution - first of all, is to restore the democratic process, out of the hands of the plutocratic government and wall street and back to the people. I think we both agree there. We both want a massive change in how things are run."
Yep! Finally some common ground. Good thing, because these discussions can get rather heated after a while. I do want to stress that I believe you mean well, and that we have a common goal. :-)
"The difference in opinion we have is that I don't see capitalism working in any form, free market or otherwise, but that's not important right now."
I can only ask you to read more on the matter, and I'd highly recommend some Austrian Economics, e.g. "What Has The Government Done With Our Money" by Murray Rothbard, or "Economics In One Lesson" by Henry Hazlitt. And another quick read could be "Economics For Real People" by Gene Calahan. I believe you can get them all for free (Google it), so nothing too capitalistic for your taste. ;-)
"The videos you showed me are very interesting, and that guy has some very good ideas, some sound a lot like socialism to me, though he probably prefers the name free-market capitalism for whatever reason"
I can only guess what part you're referring to. You seem to view capitalism as cutthroat profit-seeking. But as I've tried to explain, my philosophy, whether you call it free market capitalism, voluntaryism, anarcho-capitalism, proprietary anarchism, market anarchism, or whatever, is not prescribing any of this. I advocate freedom, or: the consistent application of the non-initiation of force. So you don't HAVE to make as much profit as you can. You can start a kibbutz if you like. And helping the sick and poor through charity isn't incompatible with it either.
"I still think that having a currency which is completely abstract of all human value is a problem."
Didn't I already agree with that? I am for sound money, based on a commodity, preferably competing currencies.
"Making bits of paper represent a higher value than food and water is very dangerous and unsustainable."
Totally agree, but again, there are LAWS enforcing this system (Federal Reserve Act, Fractional Reserve Banking Act, etc.). The dollar right now is not a product of the free market.
"But anyway, for the solution is to simply keep thinking about this and attend demonstrations and protests, to boycott, to strike (I'm unemployed anyway) to reduce our involvement in the current system because we both know it's not working, even though we attribute it to different things."
Well, I have to admit it is easy for me to talk, because I'm in the Netherlands (where things are still ok, for the time being) and I still have a steady job. So, the best of luck to you, and I hope things will turn out for the better.
Jobs don't really depend on land. My job has nothing to do with land for example. New jobs are created when demand is either created (new product or service) or existing demand outstrips existing supply. Note there isn't anything about land there.
You act as the desire to reduce labor costs is the only input on the price of specific labor when it is not. If there is too much labor for the demand the price (wage in this case) drops. This makes some people seek out new skills which are in demand. This process makes the most efficient use of everyone's labor.
What has caused unemployment is the collapse of a bubble that was built on purpose by our central bank - Greenspan admits this in one of his interviews. http://forestpolicy.typepad.com/economics/2005/09/greenspan_admit.html
You seem to view the market through only one lens. You have to understand that there is a yin and yang balance to all of these things and to see the larger picture of efficiency. Employing people just to have them employed in fields in which there work is not demanded simply destroys wealth.
OK, so there isn't enough jobs in existence, and employing them where work is not demanded destroys wealth.
Well what do they do then.
starve to death?
The amount of jobs it not a constant. You cannot predict how many and what kind of jobs there will be in the future.
If a lot of people are unemployed, then labor is cheap. In a free market there would be no minimum wage, so employers could boost production by employing more people for the same amount of money. Increase of production means more profit, more profit attracts other entrepreneurs to enter that specific market (IF it is free). Skilled workers could put savings together and enter the market with their own business.
I asked you a question.
They are unemployed right now. There isn't enough jobs because labor is superfluous. They are poor, they are homeless, they can't afford an education.
What are they supposed to do
Starve to death?
Answer the question.
So, the current corporatist system (which is NOT what I advocate for) created this mess and now I have to quickly come up with THE solution for this problem?
I'd say, let's try to help them. How? I don't know. Do what you can, give to charity. As a transition period, the government can try to provide simple food and shelter. But I hope you'll understand that eventually we'll have to find a more permanent solution, right? Creating jobs simply by starting more goverment programs is not the solution. The private sector is way better in providing things people actually want and need. Goverment programs most of the time is a waste of resources. Besides, the government is broke. So I would free the market completely and in the meantime do the best we can to help the people that are really in the gutter.
What is YOUR solution.
Socialism!
ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
We have a winner!!!
Why? The military is a government program.
You don't have a problem with the military, but god forbid should the government create useful Jobs for people, give them an education and healthcare!
No. They have to give their lives to expand the capitalist economy, or they should starve to death. Great system.
"Socialism! ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding We have a winner!!!"
Well, in a free market, charitable organisations would do a far better job then the government. But like I said, as a transition period the government could do some damage control with respect to the mess they created.
"Why? The military is a government program."
Well, digging holes and filling them up again could be a government program that creates jobs. It's not about simply employing people, it's about employing them in production area's that are beneficial to society.
"You don't have a problem with the military"
I'm an anarcho-capitalist, so I DO have a problem with the current military.
"give them an education and healthcare"
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want something, you have to pay/work for it. Or people can give it to you on a voluntary basis. You want to force people to pay for others. That is called theft. I don't want to 'expand the capitalist economy'. I don't even know what you mean by that. I want people to have the freedom enter into voluntary exchange. Again, that's all capitalism is, and that is how we thrive! Why can't you see that? Government is the reason why this isn't working right now.
No such thing as a free lunch, sure.
But an increasing number of people aren't given the opportunity to make an income. Freeing the market won't create the demand for jobs.
Voluntary exchange isn't voluntary, because in order the shelter themselves and survive, they have to sell their labor, which is superfluous so they are unable to do so anyway - the only solution to this problem is socialism - give them shelter.
If you want people to have 'the freedom to enter voluntary exchange', than you'll have to give them the freedom to reject this offer- because that is real freedom. This means that suitable land is reserved for communities to live on.
About expansion. The capitalist economy requires constant expansion, but the problem is that earth has limited resources.
What happens is that all resources within the area get exploited through materialism and industry, and so the economy must be expanded - usually through the invasion of other countries and creating artificial scarcity.
Renewable and sustainable practices aren't profitable, because scarcity is more profitable than abundance. Example, the dwindling Oil reserves make more money than the distribution of solar panels.
Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP2V_np2c0
This is more thorough. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2FrGHX5OA0
Video: RSA Animate - Crises of Capitalism
I agreed with a lot of what he said. Guess I'd have to watch it again to go into it in detail (it was quite a lot). My main impression is that he rightly criticizes the current system, but falsely equates it with capitalism. Again, I don't want to bicker to much about labels, call this system capitalist if you like, but it definitely differs from the system I propose.
He mentioned the housing bubble as one of the failures of capitalism. But for me the main causes were these:
1: Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
2: The Community Reinvestment Act and affirmative action in lending
3: The government's artificial stimulus to speculation
4: The "pro-ownership" tax code
5: The Federal Reserve and artificially cheap credit
6: The "too Big to Fail" mentality
All this would probably not exist in a free market. You may want to read Meltdown by Thomas E. Woods.
Anyway, great video, I 'liked' it!
No but they have to be inventive and lower their standard of living (at least temporarily). Start a garden if they have the area or even a windowsill garden at that. Take jobs outside their field or learn a trade like plumber or electrician which are in demand, take skill, but are frowned upon by society.
Due to many thing (that I can get into more in depth later if I have time) we have a glut of relatively meaningless degrees which means that people have learned information that isn't very practical. At the same time the quality of degrees has dropped significantly.
There aren't easy fixes for these problems and there aren't solutions that make everything fine quickly because these problems have been caused by systematic failures over decades. It is going to take a complete shift in how many people view themselves and their interactions with society. Five dollar cups of coffee while reading an ipad is only sustainable when the US can export worthless pieces of cloth for real goods. Its this system that is collapsing and we are using our military to try to prop it up - but that won't last forever.
The first step in the solution is eliminating those systematic failures that are still acting to make it worse. That means cutting off the supplies of "free" money to some people which means those people will resist. Politicians will resist limiting or increase the transparency of the money they get from corporations and political groups for example. They will resist limits on their power to give out rewards to those groups. But each time we win they have a little less power to resist us on the next fight.
It is going to be long and slow and disappointing and we are going to be called bad names and be beat up (literally and figuratively) but we must keep at it because it is so important that we do so.
How do they get a garden. They are homeless and have no money. They don't have drivers' licenses or cars. They can't afford seeds.
and again. THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH JOBS
Stop suggesting the solution to unemployment is to get a job.
There are not enough jobs - that includes electricians and plumbers.
These people don't have accommodation, let alone the fees to afford education.
What now?
I suppose it depends whom you are talking about. I was imagining someone who had just lost their job. If you're talking about homeless people now then I would say their best bet is a shelter or some charity or moving to one of the independent tent or shanty towns for communal protection.
Education does not require feed or money. Education is the process of learning and a library card or apprenticeship and many other ways (even professional tutoring and job retraining programs exist for free).
Hell I've gone into the woods and picked natural food and sold it for money (mushrooms, nuts, berries, more exotic fruits, shoots, greens).
There are already millions of people in the shelters and shanty towns.
I'm interested in getting people off the streets and taken care of, not just living off crumbs.
Anything less is not worth having a revolution for.
Natural food is fantastic, but the forests won't support millions of people trying to edge out a living.
I am to but as I said there isn't a simple one-size-fits-all long term solution.
The first thing we need to do is identity the systematic failures that are still making things worse. We need to end those while we attempt to help those harmed by these systems.
It means helping individuals out when you can and finding new and innovative ways to do so for each person and family there will be different solutions that work for their personal situation.
I want to help everyone to but that is the thing about complex problems - the solutions aren't simply, aren't easy, and are time consuming - and not perfect.
We can do the best we can and the sooner we start the sooner people can be helped.
There is enough unused land. It's the violent monopoly of the STATE that prevents people from homesteading it. Again, this is not free market capitalism. Please watch this video: http://youtu.be/KXNRzI64L9Q
is not a crisis is a transitional period and you dumb ass people do not know how to enjoy it. I love my unemployment checks
You'll find you won't be able to placate yourself with money and materialism when you awaken to the fact that we are surrounded by poverty and misery.
I don't know why you assume I am not enjoying the protests, I will be attending shortly, the music and the speeches have been incredible. Nothing else is worth living for.
Poverty and Misery? not in the US. I live in "poverty" in the US is a bunch of niggas smoking weed outside listening to music living in subsidized housing collecting food stamps to eat for free and no one works. Poverty? thats fucking paradise!
My prediction is that welfare, food stamps and subsidized housing will be privatized as austerity, as is the trend in Europe.
Whatever is the case we all have to admit that with the rapid growth of technology we do not need everyone to work. This is a transitional period. people have to educate themselves to work in fields that are in demand. i.e.. engineering which will power our future. Once this transition is over the level of automation and machinery will cause the demand for human labor to shrink. which is exactly what is happening now. Not wall streets fault but naturally. yes?
True.
Automation is a good thing.
The issue is that the massive amount of workers displaced by machines will not be able to find work as industries become increasingly automated.
This means that the products created by the machines and the engineers who service them will not be profitable because the majority of the public will have no income to spend on them.
This is an internal contradiction of capitalism.
A solution is socialism.
whatever the solution is we are not ready for. Yes we have a broken system but we need a temporary fix. Wall Street plays a huge role in the system we have. We are not ready for this now.
You're all daft if you honestly think the whole country is going to do as you dictate. to the majority of patriotic Americans you folk are a cult, nutty communists, and if you push your luck too much you'll be deemed a threat to national security. The Constitution makes it clear what happens to traitors or how to deal with threats from within and without our borders.
I have no vested interests, the wall street protests are an effort to regain the democratic process. All that's important is that the decisions of policy are made by the majority instead of the few.
All I am pointing out is that capitalism has internal contradictions within it's functioning.
If 99% of the people want to see an end to poverty, unemployment, environmental destruction - than capitalism isn't going to support these things, because capitalism profits off scarcity and exploitation, rather than symbiotic and sustainable relationships.
I already know that most people aren't listening to this stuff, however these conclusions are made from logical, rational thought instead of propaganda.
So what current systems of human to Gaia / Mother Earth symbiosis and sustainable relationships do you plan to model the New World Order on? Where are the 99 percent of Americans hiding? Will hundreds of millions of Americans actually fit in New York City and Atlanta? Gee...I don't think so. I think a head count is in order first before making such outlandish claims that you are or represent the 99% of any demographic. You sure as hell don't represent me. And neither does anyone else.
Honestly I don't know which is nuttier...your gang or gay Pride.
2 facts:
1.Capitalism is an economic system based on constant expansion.
2.The earth has limited resources.
Whether or not you can foster enough predictive capacity in your mind to formulate a logical outcome of these circumstances is none of my concern.
Crisis is the result.
Even if you can maintain enough cognitive dissonance to remain content while the planet gets destroyed and the middle class become homeless, it doesn't mean that everyone else is going to follow suit.
You might not like what is going to happen, I might not like what is going to happen, but what is certain is that things will be different.
The planet has limited resources.
The planet is overpopulated.
Recycling, reuse, dehydration, starvation, massive plagues, and global collapse are the natural consequences of uncontrolled breeding. Especially true for countries that use the production of humans as a status symbol. Even when those people are living in a time of nationwide starvation their solution is to make babies that will whither and die from malnutrition.
Even if all the monies and resources of the entire planet were equally distributed that sad truth could not be averted. Conclusion: Use a rubber, keep it in your pants, or jack off more. There's only so much manure you can spread around before the stench is unbearable....like the OWS mobs.
There is enough resources left for everybody, but only if permaculture and renewable energy are given the necessary infrastructure to succeed.
This doesn't happen under capitalism because of the conflict between sustainability and the profit motive.
What the hell is permaculture?
Renewable energy isn't that self-sustaining. Everything man-made (you, god, machines) all break eventually. What infrastructure do you imagine will be there to maintain things? Planet of the apes only works for so long sweety. Sooner or later humans start to learn to speak again and then you know how that movie ends...KA BOOM! No more planet.
Nothing lasts forever, however renewable energy lasts a whole lot longer than fossil fuels, and it doesn't destroy the atmosphere and melt the icecaps in the process.
That would depend greatly on the materials used for construction, the fabrication process, the location where it is being used to harness "renewable" energy, and other factors including actual use by people. What of the wind mills that kill thousands of migratory birds every year? What about the constant care solar panels need to operate at peek efficiency? The life of a solar panel may only be two to three decades. The cost of a solar panel is prohibitive for many. Ditto for a wind farm.
Solar and wind are fickle power sources. Cloudy days, night time, and calm days that are not breezy or windy means people who rely just on those two types of generators are shit out of luck. If you really want to talk about renewable energy then people should be forced to have dynamos in their homes and offices. When they want electricity to use something then they have to workout in order to get those dynamos to create the power they desire to use. But then what about cripples and old farts who cannot work the dynamos? What about lazy moochers who won't work the dynamos? And who will fix all these things when they break? What is the incentive to do anything when the reward of being payed cash money and private ownership is stolen from businesses? This ain't star trek where people do something just for the sake of doing it.
The more we use coal, oil and gas, the more hydrofracking occurs. The more carcinogenic the atmosphere becomes, the more deforestation occurs, the more resource wars happen.
I don't know if you really give a fuck about your children, if you have any, but the world they inherit won't be anything like this one.
Solar is good, alot of people are using it.
All that you need for Geothermal is a giant hole and some water. It's not that sophisticated. The government could fund research instead of spending trillions on wars for more oil.
keep capitalism but balance it out with protections for common people, that's where localizing it some, and putting limits/caps on growth, comes in, unlimited growth is an insane impossible concept
localized capitalism should be good enough for the 99%, I mean seriously if your company expands beyond a certain size, I'm pretty sure your family is not doing too badly, and like in the past, you should be required to pay 90- some percent tax! yes, that's what the corporate tax was in the past.
Don't tax corporations. Tax the millionaires and billionaires.
Tax everyone the same rate as is required in our national constitution.
here here
another thing is to shout 'buy local' at the protests that one is entirely in the hands of all of us to make come true though
two actions that I think would be a good step toward relocalizing power into people's hands end the obscene amount of bribery and lobbying in politics end corporate personhood - bribing politicians is NOT a form of free speech, a corporations freedom of speech is NOT being violated! how vile can a human being get to actually defend a corporation like that with a straight face?
Given that Financial Institutions have failed us, that we, the tax payers, have to salvage them when they go under, that we cannot trust wall street icones anymore, I recommand that a new Bill of Rights be prepared and voted directly by the people (direct democracy) to promote only one fundamental principle, that is the principle of cooperation, i.e. one man one vote, regardless of the number of shares one owns in the institution. The principle of cooperation (much like it is the case for Credit Unions or a financial coopearative like Desjardins in Quebec) would be the only basis of incorporation of all Financial Institutions, including Banks, Trusts, Insurance companies, Loans companies, etc. Current institutions would be required by law to change their incorporation charters and retrofit themselves into cooperatives, with the priniciple of one man one vote as a new modus operandi. With this principle, the managers of Financial Institutions would't be able anymore to allocate themselves immoral bonuses like they do today, because they would never have more than one vote, like everybody else, in the organisation, regardless of the number of shares they might own. Majority share holders rules would then be something of the past
or maybe just resolve to actually HONOR the current bill of rights, instead of just paying it lip service... and maybe add a couple of amendments... we have awfully few amendments to the constitution given our country's rich history....
Agreed, decentralization is key, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
I agree, plus...
You all are great! This great financial reform movement has been a dream of mine since 2008, after hearing the Congressional Hearing on Energy Reform and on how Financial Deregulations hurts the hard working Americans, and turns undeserved brokers/executives into overnight Millionaires!
So I feel (and many others) that only way we can get back on safe financial footing again is to close the Enron Loophole, created for energy/oil speculators, and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which prevented the current banking and insurance scams/loopholes. After all, it worked great until late 90's, until when Congress threw it out. Since then, like prior to 1933, we are experiencing what our country went though then, total Wall Street Greed with no Penalties, its all legal Gambling now...thanks to the architects of our new system in 1999, President Clinton and Rep Senator Phil Gramm. Think about where we are now, it all started in 1999 with the subprime loans Gramm was peaching on Senate floor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKQOxr2wBZQ&feature=related
And for the Free Trade Movement, bringing back the Glass-Steagall Act will not hurt our financial markets or hinder Free Trade, as the GOP rhetoric claims, instead with this back in PLACE bankers can still make millions a day, but not the trillions as they do now on the accounts of hard working Americans.
Bankers need more regulation, not less. Don't let the Bankers new Game to charge for debit cards as the results of the Dodd/Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act surprise you. Right after it passed, we have the banking lobby on national TV saying that "we" will pay for it, after we bailed them out, What nerve! So this is their response to having it their way since 1999: We have have to find a way to give out Executives their way out of line bonuses: Bingo, charge for debit cards! This is them throwing their influence over our Election officials, that are suppose to work for us, after all we voted for them to do the right thing, which doesn't include the banking lobbyist agenda....
Cheers to all that are involved. Let's get focused and bring back Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, they got it right 1933, we don't need to reinvent the wheel because bringing this Act back will create an even playing field once again....and let's also tell Congress to finally Close the Enron Loophole, which allowed Enron to charge what they wanted for energy; they went to jail for this; but no one closed the loophole, why? Re-election Monies from the banks and oil companies! The writing is on the wall.
Why we need Glass-Steagall to be reinstated:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wXj http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/
Why are oil prices high?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-kExdTgNZA&feature=channel
Agreed, (though economies of scale need to be considered as well) - people need to understand that corporations HATE perfectly competitive capitalistic markets, it forces them to innovate and offer their product cheaper. They would rather maintain a monopolistic stranglehold on their industry through political lobbying and excessive litigation.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/importance-of-solidarity/
exactly
yes economies of scale do need to be considered, and monitored well.... and even international trade can still exist with decentralized local economies, just more limited in scope... .export is meant for your SURPLUS, not for what is meant to be the meal on your table at dinner... the current logistics of the system make no sense, countries exporting apples to each other??? come on!
er. you want a free market system, not a slave market system.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/corporate-oligarchy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/no-war/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/where-are-we-and-how-do-we-move-forward/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/things-wall-st-did-were-not-illegal/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/suggested-goals/
what is the point of your post? this is not a bs post and yes ows is ALL OF OUR personal billboard for our politics, that's the entire reason we are here, you dum-dum! Get real, you want us to come here and speak our truth, and then when we do you want to silence us? Seriously, who are you? Are you a troll?
? are you addressed to me. I'm not trying to silence anyone, just make it clear what the actual science terms would say clearly instead of watch you muddle through. If you want to be heard and taken seriously you need to know your vocabulary terms. I'm just trying to support you here by providing the vocabulary.
http://www.oligarchyusa.com/
http://www.istockanalyst.com/finance/story/5390832/some-fascinating-stats-about-our-corporate-oligarchy
http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/category/21st-century-challenges/ethicsandeconomics/
According to a 2008 article by David Rothkopf, the world’s 1,100 richest people have almost twice the assets of the poorest 2.5 billion (Rothkopf, 2008). Aside from the obvious problem – that this global elite has their hands in everything from politics to financial institutions – …
http://theprogressiveplaybook.com/2011/09/occupywallstreet-an-american-tahrir/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ght22PnCXy0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/wisconsin-is-ground-zero_b_825321.html
http://last-lost-empire.com/blog/?tag=global-corporate-oligarchy
To the extent that we, the people, are removed from control over our lands, marketplaces, central banks, and media we are no longer empowered. In practice, those few who do control the land, central bank, media and "free market" are the real rulers of our corrupt and declining "democracy."
Due to propaganda from a corporate-owned and edited media we are kept from knowing, much less debating, the nature of our system. Due to a central bank owned by bankers, media owned by a few global concerns, and trade regime controlled by global corporations (i.e., one designed to remove the people from control over their markets and environments) the vast majority have become little more than latter-day serfs and neo-slaves upon a corporate latifundia.
To restore a semblance of effective democracy and true freedom Americans, and people around the world, need to re-educate themselves as to the true nature of their political and economic systems. Toward this end, OligarchyUSA.com is dedicated to providing old and new information, books, links, reform ideas and debates not easily found or accessed today in establishment media.
OligarchyUSA.com is but one more site and sign of the times as ground-up counter-revolutions arise around the world... all in response to a forced and freedomless globalization courtesy of a ruling global elite perfecting their top-down plutocracy and revolutions of the rich against the poor. In short, democracy is no longer effective today. For this reason, it is toward a restoration of truly effective and representative democracies, and natural freedom, that this site is dedicated.
we don't need your vocabulary, we're here to create NEW vocabulary!
knowledge is power and ignorance is not bliss. at least listen to and learn the words from me instead of shooting yourself in the ass making yourself look ignorant and unclued. its one thing to be ignorant; its another thing to have the information put in front of you and miss it; thats called stupid. don't be stupid.
REFORM General Curiosity drives learning if it is allowed to do so and not shut down. Curiosity is shut down via the current system, creating the ADD disorder sudden appearance on the charts. One half of ADD is a person who can’t pay attention. The other half is a boring culture, delivery of information modus operandi. Curiosity driven learning involves more brain area participation. If a person doesn’t really like their experience, the subconscious mind edits it and doesn’t learn from it. Using curiosity driven learning potentially accelerates the learning curve such that it would not be unreasonable for the society of the future to expect the equivalent of a multiple PhD education from High School. The largest obstacle to curiosity driven learning is the current student to teacher ratio. Curiosity driven learning requires a personal curriculum to be developed per child, an enormous labor process for most teachers. The cure is to use peer tutoring, and older child tutoring in conjunction with professional testers. Teachers are being asked do two different jobs, Teaching and Testing. Testing is incredibly underutilized. How can you know what a child is ready to learn if you have not learned from them who they are and what they know already? The second largest obstacle is a lazy educational system which must be corrected and re-educated itself. The educational paradigm being taught for use is not the one which is being taught in reform education psychology and sociology classes. The first battery of tests should be; IQ tests, aptitude tests, Sanity tests, Type of intelligence per intelligence tests, learning style tests, performance tests, peer skills tests, comprehensive topical subject tests, and in general, any test which can be used to effectively appraise an individual child for the purposes of creating for that child a personalized curriculum. The topics of psychology, sociology, conversational logic, and ethics should be added to the current curriculum for all Middle School (ages 12 to 14 or grades 6 thru 8) and High Schools Personality differences including learning styles and Types of intelligence Can mean that people learn in very different ways. Groups of students should be organized without regard so much to age as to learning style. A class full of visual Learners from 3 age groups is better than a class full of kinesthetic learners and visual learners who find each other distracting and each others interactions with the teacher bizarre. Throw in some introverts and some extroverts and a speed-reader or two, and a teachers modus operandi cannot hope to reach well the different types of Students that s/he is teaching.
Education reform; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_reform http://www1.worldbank.org/education/globaleducationreform/ http://www.education-reform.net/ http://dmoz.org/Society/Issues/Education/Education_Reform/
Curiousity driven Learning http://www.csl.sony.fr/~py/developmentalRobotics.htm http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/interest.html http://www.childtrauma.org/ctamaterials/Curiosity.asp http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy00h/students/explore.htm
Types of Intelligence; http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whathap/ubnrp/intelligence05/Mtypes.html http://www.ldpride.net/learningstyles.MI.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_intelligences
Learning Styles; http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/Learning_Styles.html http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/ILSpage.html http://www.chaminade.org/inspire/learnstl.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles http://www.funderstanding.com/learning_styles.cfm
you're going off on a tangent, I'm generally aware of the things you talk about, I'm NOT clueless, and I'm telling you you're running off on a tangent... you ARE ADD. Go take your pill, or better yet, ditch the Ritalin, and change your diet.
well, aspie, i think your hyper-focus is in the wrong direction at the moment... however aspie's are cool though, I saw the movie about Temple Grandin, she rocks! focus on fixing wall street, not educational reform, right now... this is what this movement is about... BTW, I regulary test between 130 and 140 on iq tests, so please spare me
nope, i am not on any pills, nor do i need a diet change. i am right, your ad homs are merely garbage, and you are most certainly clueless if you use such BS against me. I am an ASPIE i have hyper focus- the opposite of ADD.
but keep shooting, maybe one of these pees will actually make it in my eye and thus be annoying or something.
sigh.
troll crap.
they are many. They are legion. They have no integrity; They beleive that if a cause is to their side, this authorizes them to FIGHT; by whatever means are necessary. They did not understand that "the ends does not justify the means". They probably never heard that, and don't know its an esoteric reference. They have no knowledge to speak of. They are uneducated on essentially every subject. You can find them to be completely out of touch with the most basic laws of Cause and effect, Completely ignorant of sociology, or Civil Engineering. Completely and utterly devoid of any even basic understanding of Physics, Or Psychology.
And in this vaccum of their ignorance, they presume to judge. They presume to tell us what they think is true; That the rest of us are just their pwns, and that they, the trolls, have determined that we are, the Nerds, are inferior. They find oh so clever little trollish art in finding ways to use ridicule. And by their numbers and pack psychology, they manage, inconceivably, to occasionally have some sort of minor sway on public opinion.
How is this possible? How did our civilization come to such silly self destructive ends that we evolved a troll niche? How did we breed this large demographic of subhumans, with IQs between 75 and 105 and a rabid penchant for nihilistic and self defeating social violence? How did we turn over what should have been the great American Political Dialogue between Great minds, to a bunch of petty, theiving, inbred, royal bastards, and their army of politico trolls?
Why do we feed them, rather than pave the way for a better future by talking of whats truly important? Why don't we collectively start discussing the factual problems and potential solutions, instead of relying on elected big brother to do it for us, while running a politics based on troll warfare?
Troll Crap. It is piled neck deep and strewn about the American Landscape, one big fetid, gross, rotting pile of insane and evil doublethink, propaganda, Ad hominems, straw man arguments, and assorted distractions and attempted lame and two dimensional psychological manipulations. Which for some crazy reason, the sheeple fail to see.
How does the IQ demographic from 105 to 120 get sucked down like that? To dither as fools inside of the human bellcurves low end?
Don't they realize that it is up to them, as the true majority by statistical and bellcurve geometries, to listen to and empower and embolden and partake in the conversation that is attempted between Genius and the "Average" Citizen?
Do they not know that the bellcurve arranges it such that they outnumber the trolls by 3 or 5 to one? Do they not realize that they are choosing to encourage the worst in humanity, rather than turn their eyes and the tide of human psychohistory towards some better future? Can they not hear us, The rare one in one million, trying to talk them out of their love affair with demihumans?
Let the trolls breed and talk and play and enjoy their lives; Somewhere outside of my arean of informed public discussion. Let them make love, have picnics, climbs mountains, walk in riverbeds, climb trees, swim in oceans, and frolic with their freedom. (Their biggest problem being that they are so angry at everybody else for being smarter than they are; which makes them more stupid. And this unrealizing that intelligence isn't mostly Genetic nor aptitude, but the difference between good and bad self metaprogramming. So all they need to do to get smarter is quit being emotionalized, hyperdefenive, sociopathic, nuckle dragging brutes, and get their ignorant buns into some kind of adult eduction, preferablty starting with conversational logic and Psychology.)
I agree completely. Cities used to be self sustaining. They had local live television and radio stations, newspapers that competed with each other. Groceries actually bought meat and produce from local stock yards and farmers. Doctors and lawyers where paid cash or carried indebted clients personally. The bankers knew their customers and the customers knew the president of the bank. He was on site everyday. A young adult could graduate from high school and land a job at a company in town and learn on the job.
what happens when one of those local farmer becomes rich? Will he suddenly become evil? There's more to this than just saying all corporations are bad.
yes, evil can be in anyone, anywhere, and that is exactly another reason WHY we need localization..... when a local farmer becomes evil, everyone in town knows him, and the amount of damage he can do is limited within his town, his limited number of connections, and his lifetime. with corporations the scale is PLANETARY, and potentially INFINTE, because AGAIN, corporations never die. People can come with proverbial burning torches and weapons at your front door when you re a farmer in a small town. But how do you do that with a multinational corporation?
By making sure their influence in rules that regulate their behavior is taken away. In other words, get rid of money in elections.
yeah, that would be a good start, but again doesn't solve the problem when the decisions that affect an entire country are all centralized in dc, do you really think they're not going to find a way to hide the truth from us? get real, they have no scruples, that why they made it to wall street, that why the made it all the way to dc that's why it has to be local, in my humble opinion, on a local scale, REAL human beings, like you and me, can actually become involved in the decisions that affect them.... they can say they're doing right by the people, all they want, but the truth has to be in the pudding, not somewhere in a law book that nobody honors when the people aren't looking.... which they CAN'T BE, cause most of us don't live in DC! Get it? It really is that simple. Geography IS, and always will be that limitation, on human beings, as long as we live in a physical world. It's simple physics.
bingo! That used to be what it meant to be an American. Your TV and radio was locally relevant. Your food used to fresh because it didn't travel 5000 miles to get to you. Less greedy domination of banks and medical care. And you didn't have to spend your parents' life-savings-to-date in order to secure your own future.
I think walmart started that way....
Maybe living in small towns is where its at....seriously.
most of america (geographically) is still small towns, population wise I'm not sure, but we sure do have a lot of peaceful, nice towns, where everybody knows your name.
I LOVE small towns....
me too, that's the best way to live... there's a rule of ancient greek architecture, I forget what its called, but it says that the best communities are planned around 500 people max, because that's how they can have the most optimal and enriching interaction in the town square and in their communities now i'm not advocating that no towns should be over 500 people, that would be quite an extreme and rigid way to expect people to live, but I think there is a lot we can learn from that concept.....
you can get closer to people in a good way.....
if I need to see some sports event or experience some cultural event i will drive to it , enjoy, and turn drive back to my small town
ahh you got me thinking...!
or enjoy local bands and local sports =)
yep, local sports, local music. local art, local dineries, local efforts to save something or do something of significance
you can do all those things and more in a small town.....
and feel safe too !
and quiet and beautiful.....a place where your mind can get content...
it's the way it used to be EVERYWHERE, before it simply became the "hippie" thing to do..... it's what has stood the test of time for most of human history.... so maybe its time to get back to the basics....
ps I am NOT a hippie. I am going to say this before anyone "accuses" me of being one due to the concepts I am bringing forth. I have a bachelors of science degree in international business, and I am a huge fan of Bill McKibben's "Deep Economy", I am a 29 year old female. His book made ten times more sense than what I learned in four years of college.
If walmart had remained true to real American values, we would all be proud to shop at Walmart. Instead, we shop there with out tails between our legs because they have the lowest prices, because they abuse stakeholders. We are ALL those stakeholders. Anyone who has not felt the karma come back knocking at their front door yet, you must be either very naive or very lucky in this economy. The malignant cancerous growths of these corporations, we have all allowed this to continue happening, we have been the enablers in an abusive relationship, by continuing to support them. Now is the time to repent for our sins, BUY LOCAL. We don't need to take austerity measures, we can take prosperity measures.
buy local might mean ya pay more........just sayin....
buy local also means WORKERS get paid more, because of better workers rights. in localized economies you cant export labor to sweatshops overseas where they pay them in peanuts, and turn your own country into a service-sector economy (euphemism for a broken sovereign country, if you're not producing to sustain yourself, you're not economically sovereign, and lets get real, not politically sovereign, either at that point, you answer to corps) and in a local economy we are all producers too not just consumers. you pay more but also get paid more... again it evens out...
yes, of course it does! it also means you'd have a job, and fairer benefits, instead of being stuck in this sh*y economy where the 1% are trying to destroy the 99%. so all in all it truly evens out. don't look at the immediate price tag on that new pair of jeans, there is a long-term price tag much more important... besides, how many pairs of jeans do you need, anyway? In the 1950s, is when Americans were said to be happiest, they say happiness has diminished ever since and stress has increased. In the 1950s we had fewer possessions, but better economic equality.
There is something to be said in finding happiness in life and having fewer possesions
Not sure about the 50's....but the population sure has grown since then.....small towns might be where its at in the future...I might move to one...its on the coast of oregon...Cannon Beach...love it there....
No corporations,,,,all commerce is local.
well i'm not sure about EVERY aspect of the fifties, either, but that's what I heard said about the fifties about the happiness quotient....
I agree, great post
The problem is that wall street simply demands profit from corporations. Shareholders only seek capital as return. The system needs to be changed. A PUBLIC corporation should not be beholden to only shareholders but also to STAKEHOLDERS the employees and consumers after all it is a PUBLIC corporation. A Voice and Vote should be required on all PUBLIC corporations to the stakeholders as well as the shareholders.
basically I think corporations should be beholden toward real wealth (stakeholders, people, nature), instead of fake wealth (money, paper). In humanity's attempt to simplify trade and commerce through a common currency exchange, we have basically thrown away the human being, and the entire planet. Basically everything that is REAL. For the false profit, the immediate gratification of the few ruthless enough to play the fake wealth game all the way to the top. When you think about it our whole way of doing business with each other is schizophrenic, insane, the level that we have taken it to in the last fifty one hundred years. Nothing matters if it can't be monetized. Human soul? What's that? Can you sell it? Ok, done ranting now.
yes, there are a lot of details that need to be ironed out as to how exactly corporate power will be diminished, but to me it is clear that this is the direction that must be taken, re-localization, and un-corporatization.... abolishing corporate personhood does not sound like a bad start to me... a long time ago corporations were very well leashed-in... before they got out of control, they were very limited in scope, but these days we have replaced the human being with the corporate being in our public affairs, in our economies, in our priorities .... in our current system, human beings are human twinkies for the corporate person...
and NO, the fact that walls street demands profits from corporations is NOT a problem, just as much as a bully demanding money from the short kid with glasses is not a problem... it's no longer a problem, when the adult steps in and puts the bully in his place....enough is enough!
Corporations should be converted to mini Democracies and their Leadership should be held accountable to its stakeholders and to the public at large. Leaders in Public Corporations should be elected by the shareholders and the stakeholders. Profit should be a motive but not the only one. And its leadership should be accountable to the laws of the United States. Accountability should lie with those that hold corporate office. So A PERSON IS RESPONSIBLE.
Agreed. This or something to this effect, yes. Basically: a person needs to be held responsible. Because: the basic unit of society, economics and politics, is the human being, not the corporation. Corporations can't be jailed, reprimanded, etc, and they NEVER DIE.
You are amazing, you put into words what I was trying to express about capitalism
Thank you. Please spread this message. It desperately needs to be heard.