Forum Post: The Striking Illegitimacy of OWS
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 3:39 p.m. EST by boredperson
(225)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
First of all, the group is unorganized, misinformed, misguided, and nonsensical. The group seems to be predominantly composed of socialists and fascists, many of whom don't actually know what capitalism is. There seems to be a misplacement of blame that ignores the root problem: the government. As well, it is entirely illogical to then make the jump and proclaim that the concentration of wealth is the issue. It has never been the issue; it will never be the issue. This whole "uneven" taxation ordeal is as well misinformed and misguided. It draws upon a fundamental misunderstanding of economics, which seems to be a pervasive issue around here. And as it is, the less spending money the government has, the better. Although, for most of you, this is about wealth equality (which is, for lack of a better word, retarded). I hope this movement dies. Although, I hope the Fed dies, too (but mostly because of what the Austrian Business Cycle dictates).
In order to preserve and defend the Status Quo, Corporate America hired "boredperson" to play dumb and write a dumb comment.
C'mon-- we outnumber these dingbats 99 to 1. Let's out vote 'em!!
LOL... keep on thinking that man.... someday, you will tell your grandchildren you were part of the great 1% in NYC
no dumb comments don't dilute nearly aswell as new posts
the mod edited my post for me
fair enough,
I had posted "let it die"
as I had grown weary of the every 20th topic being "get a job loser"
I don't feel they serve any agenda
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74866296#post74866296
I suppose being to rail against these "get a job" topic is cathartic
in venting the frustration that many of us don't have jobs
ax cuts for middle class modernize roads and bridges invest in middle class not banking class by raising minimum wage thats the oocupy wall sreet message
So many socialists....so many fascists...I really hope this movement dies... . You guys are fighting crony capitalism, not capitalism.
I Just touched down in Atlanta, from a business meeting in San Mateo, and I’m pretty sure that I used something that was provided by a socialist system (the runways, the airport trains, the terminals, the restrooms in the airport, the parking decks) all paid by socialist tax $$$
What's your point?
That America is already a socialist society because we already agree that we will come together in certain functions of our collective lives. For example: the association fee that I pay for the landscaping and trash pickup in my community. An association is a socialist entity. The insurance I pay for is also paid by what’s called a pool of other people, which is where most of the money would come from if I have a very expensive medical event. Like it or not, we are a socialist society. Now, there are a handful of people that live in complete isolation, but those people are few and far. They hate society and what it has become, and were true enough to their beliefs to move far away from the rest of us. If you fly (which obviously I do), the infrastructure of the airports is paid for with socialist tax dollars (collected from our taxes). I think you already know all of this. You don't exactly need higher education to know these things. Just look at your pay check stub.
Certainly socialism exists. But I suppose I still don't understand.... The infrastructure of airports could have been built without tax dollars.
But, just like our roads, they're not built without tax payers’ dollars. Another example is sports. Most stadiums (these days all of them) are built with tax payers’ dollars. I'm sure that a good number of the people attending sporting events in these structures call themselves anti-socialist, but they willingly participate in a socialist function that's made possible by collective tax dollars. I guess I should ask you what do you mean when you call someone a socialist? Maybe I misunderstood you. That's what I don't understand. Also, name one major airport that was 100& built without tax dollars. Most that I can think of were built 100% with tax dollars. Also, I think most people agree with you about the government, I think the march on Wall St. is just symbolic. Believe me, the government is worried too.
Of course we willingly take part in it; the means by which something was created does not stop me from using of it. I'd use such a baseball stadium even if a dictator commanded slaves to build it. However, taxes are not willing. I don't believe that we should be taxed at all. The whole system is stealing and slavery and relies on a unilateral social contract (the sole party being the government) to which none of us have ever willingly agreed (which of course makes the government an organized protection racket). Just because socialism exists doesn't mean I agree with it. Yes, the airports were funded with tax dollars. However, without socialism, we'd still have airports. I'd undoubtedly choose the system without socialism, but I'm not going to stop myself from using resources that the government has forced me to pay for.
I respect your opinion, and I even agree that many of our tax dollars are being stolen, but I have some questions; if we didn’t pay taxes who would build the airports, who would take care of our sewer systems, who would pay for law enforcement, who would build and pay for the state of the art weaponry for our soldiers, how would we pay them, and who would properly educate our children. It sounds to me like you simply have a problem with the way your tax dollars are being used. Many of us feel the same way. Most of the problems with our government is that they’re bought and paid for, so they can never represent the people, because they’re beholding to the people that fill their coffers.
I would never knowingly support anything that was produced by slavery. That’s one of the reasons I support BUY AMERICAN, because many of the products that were once made in America are now made overseas in sweat shops, but this is America and you are free to do whatever you like.
So many questions :) many of which would probably take a little while to flesh out. I can give you the simple answer though: Pretend we are in a society without a government. Therefore, we don't have a government to take care of the sewers, build infrastructure, enforce the law etc. Well, certainly there is a high demand for all of these things. We want clean sewers and roads and police. If there is a high demand for something, and this demand is not being catered to, what do you think might happen? Somebody would find it extremely profitable to start a business that either cleans the sewers, enforces laws (which is a decently complicated issue in a free market so you might want to disregard the police aspect, unless for whatever reason you wish to inquire further), or build infrastructure, or educate, or build airports. Indeed I do, and will always, have a problem with the way tax dollars are being used. I will tell you why. The government has no means by which to make economic calculations; that is, it cannot allocate resources efficiently (in this case taxes) because it doesn't have the price mechanism (in which supply and demand are embedded) to give it the proper information to allocate resources efficiently. In other words, the government doesn't make money off of public goods, so how could it tell what the proper supply and demand is? Well, that's actually a facet of the 'buy American' movement I hadn't thought about. However, I disagree with you about the supposed slavery in sweatshops; if anything, it's remarkably fair and beneficial. If you wish for me to explain (which there are clearly so many things here to explain further) I can.
Your imaginary society sounds quite wonderful, so you are an Anarcho-Captialist? Or is Libertarian Socialist? Possibly it depends on your definition of private property? How are we organizing society? You put forward a brilliant fantasy.
Anarcho-capitalist...certainly it's just speculation. I'm aware of that. Anarcho-capitalism has yet to exist. I'm merely drawing upon logic to make a logical argument.
Eventually we would find ourselves being victimized by that system as well. For example: Luzerne County Judge Mark Ciavarella used children as pawns, locking them up unjustly (in a private jail) in a plot to get rich. They called it the cash for kid’s scheme. Though he was convicted, by the time they caught him several children had served undeserved time. Unfortunately man as a whole has proven that he can’t be trusted when profit is the main objective. Look what the speculators are doing with oil. Just saying that a barrel of oil will be a certain price makes it so, and bam, easy money baby. Meanwhile, a person that was saving $300 a month is now putting it in their gas tank just to get to work.
I don’t believe in the assertion that many capitalist make that we should turn all services over to for profit entities because our government is incapable of doing anything right. If you turn the police department and the judicial system over to corporate entities, the people would have no say in anything they do because they would be private businesses. I’ve worked in corporate America for a long time and I must say; it definitely is no silver bullet. I like the system we have now; I just think it’s time for a thorough cleaning.
Oh well, nothing is perfect. Let’s just both be glade that we live in a country where we don’t need to worry about being tortured for our postings. (I think lol)
The courts are owned by the government however. If a private court did that, the court would lose credibility, and nobody would take their legal affairs to such a court. Ultimately, the court would go bankrupt. Speculation is actually a good thing. Speculators assume risk (so you don't have to), increase liquidity, and by assuming risk allow the market equilibrium price to be reached much more quickly. However, there tends to be a history against speculation, so I wouldn't blame you if that doesn't convince you of anything. ~99% percent of people don't believe the assertion that we should privatize all goods and services (in that 99% of people support some form of government); so you're undoubtedly not alone. For police and courts, in order for them to make money, they will have to meet the demands of the consumers, yes? So, if Town X thinks that murdering is bad and wants murderers to be put on trial and locked up, then such police and courts might find it profitable to help out Town X. If police company A says "we like murderers" and doesn't wish to help out Town X, well then police company B will come in help out Town X instead, and get paid in return.
He had a deal with a private jail that got paid for each housed inmate. The owners of the jail was paying him under the table. Many people still don't raelize that we alraedy have private jails. Just look up his name. You'll have no trouble finding the story. Speculators say oil will be at a certain price, and it would go to that price. People who gamble on derivatives gamble with other people’s money. Speculators basically dictate prices. That’s not gambling. You’re talking about honest speculation. They don't do that anymore.
Certainly, I wouldn't argue that this couldn't ever happen in a free market. A private court and a private jail may very well come up with a similar scheme to get rich. And the town who uses such a court/jail will undoubtedly have to pay the expenses (in this case, the children serving undue time) of taking a risk in being consumers of such a court and jail. However, the market would of course be quick to adjust. The scheme of the court and jail would be realized, and the court and jail would go bankrupt. A new jail and court would come in (or ones that already existed), and of course seeing the poor financial situation of the now bankrupt court and jail, would have no incentive whatsoever to concoct such a scheme. Although, they probably wouldn't want to cheat their consumers anyway, after all, they would lose credibility and thus money.
That’s true; however think of all the victims, and the time stolen from them in the mean-time. People that couldn't afford expensive attorneys would be screwed. I see where we differ now; what you feel about government, I fell about corporation as well. The only difference to me as that the government answers more to its people. They’re currently trying to change that, but they still answer to us. Remember; corporations are the ones that are buying laws and law makers now so they can own America (taking advantage of the weakness of man). You may soon have your wish.
Well, I can see this as a good stopping point I suppose. Certainly there is vast amounts more we could discuss; however, I can't say that it would be particularly fruitful in the long run. I see your point; you see mine; I'm pretty content with that, even if we don't arrive at an agreement. Well, either way I've come to support this movement, despite my initial concern.
Good luck to you in all you future endeavors, I’ve truly enjoyed it!
This country has just gone to hell ever since the democrats took over. They just give money to anyone asking for help.
Don’t be distracted by the fake feud between the so called, two parties, they have more in common than you may realize. The things they fight over in the public eye are distractions from the truly important things they do to screw everyone. Do you think they gave so many valuable jobs away for free; no, they got paid; all of them. You already know what they seem to disagree on. Now find out they agree on, then you’ll know why this country is where it is. THEY’RE ALL BOUGHT. That’s why at this point, what you think, and what I think is irrelevant to most all of them. Look beyond the political cloak that is currently draped over Washington.
Fighting crony capitalists is a good thing.
I agree. But they don't know the difference.
Despite the fact that they keep saying crony capitalist/ism is the reason that they are protesting?
Well, I suppose we should define "they." The whole occupy wall street movement has become a muddled mess with no particularly defined position. Some advocate socialism, others fascism, others anarchism. It's hard to tell what the majority really believes I guess. Many believe that corporations are inherently malevolent and need to be kept in check by the government, while not realizing that the government gave them such power. I don't know...its really just confusing.
Where are the fascists at the occupy movement?
I suppose I only used the word "fascist" as a buzz word. It's been pointed out many times to me, and so I am aware of the flaw. However, it really doesn't affect anything, so I couldn't care too much.
Every protest can be regarded as a muddled mess. At least they're not a racist, corporate-sponsored muddled mess that puts racial slurs on their signs..
First, this is not a political movement. It has nothing to do with being a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, Muslim or Jew or Christian or Atheist. It has nothing to do with the Left or the Right. This is a Financial Revolution. This is a revolt of the 99% that are throwing off the yoke of financial oppression to free our Government from the corrupt control of the 1%. We are no longer willing to sit idly by and just voting in hopes that the elected officials will ignore the puppet strings and do what is right. We are taking our future into our own hands and standing up to fight for what we believe in, a Government for the People by the People.
We live in a Feudalistic Capitalist society governed not by the elected officials but by the person who donates the most money to their cause. The top 1% controls the money and thus controls the laws, fixing them to better themselves rather than better the 99%. So we, the serfs, are rising up against our oppressors. We will fight for ourselves. We will not ignore the 1% mocking us while they sip champagne and wonder "Why do they starve when they can eat cake." Like the American and French Revolutions we will rise against the Monarchy and attain our freedom.
In a modern American society it is virtually impossible to violently fight a rebellion against the 1%. The military industrial complex has insured that the general populace can not compete in an arms race. The 2nd amendment was intended to keep the Government honest with the ability of the populace to rise up if it ever overstepped it's bounds. The forefathers did not envision a future of smart bombs, drone airplanes, and tomahawk missiles. So what weapons can we fight with to effect this Financial Revolution? What peaceful, civil, and responsible solutions is there? We have, our money.
We will cripple the banks by refusing to acknowledge their credit system. We will en mass refuse to pay our mortgages, car loans, student loans, credit cards, unpaid medical bills, insurance, etc. We will couple this with pulling our money out of their Banks. Unified, we will force the banks to relinquish their control on the Government so that the Government can do what they need to do to correct the system. Meanwhile, we will still go to work, buy groceries, pay our utilities, and live normal lives.
The 1% have to be accountable for their actions. They have to relinquish control. They can not live in their ivory towers and ignore us anymore. The 99% are here to fight for our country. We are American and we believe that the American Dream is still alive. We just have to work hard to wrest it from the iron grip of our oppressors.
" It has nothing to do with being a Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican, Muslim or Jew or Christian or Atheist."... Uh, excuse me but you all have been TAKEN OVER by the far left socialist groups. Can you even acknowledge the antisemitism being spouted by many at your love in? I guess not, that would be problematic.
Dude, seriously, you might want to learn about the French Revolution before you put that in the same sentence as the American Revolution.
Please put "GeoffH" on your sign while you are sitting by the side of the road after you have lost your house and car and you can't get a job because your credit rating is shittier than a horse stall. I might throw you a quarter....
And exactly how will these "1%" be held accountable? to the guillotine? or maybe the gulag? You want to have a revolution? sounds more like you want a reign of terror. Let me take a stab at it.. your a young person who typed your comments on a computer built by a corporation, live in a comfortable environment due to services and amenities provided by corporations, enjoy high speed access to the internet, ( a product of, "GASP" the U.S. military!), and have almost limitless outlets of entertainment and diversion, yet you feel your being "oppressed". `I never cease to be amazed at the dizzy heights of hypocrisy that can be reached by people. Nor how easy the blood soaked path of collectivism is forgotten.
"enjoy high speed access to the internet, ( a product of, "GASP" the U.S. military!)"
So you're a fucking communist now?? WTF Dude?? Make up your mind. Is private enterprise superior to government spending in every way or not??
" to the guillotine? or maybe the gulag? You want to have a revolution? sounds more like you want a reign of terror." Wow! You're pretty fucking paranoid about these protests.. Also, you seem to have an extremely disturbed imagination. Our plan is to lock the 1% up with you, so they can decide between listening to your nonsense or beating you to death.
O.K. so your going to lock people up for having a different opinion.... I'm glad we got that straight. Thank you for at least being honest about your goals. I just thought Stalinism died a long time ago..
tax payers subsidized the development of all those technologies the private sector employs, for profit. what the Occupy wall street folks are after is government accountability, it seems.The system of corporate finance that the president, along with congress, enjoy is corrupt and unfair to the general public. I really think all the Occupy wall street boys want laizze-faire capitalism.
The 1% have had their way with our Government. Their greed and corruption have permeated our governing body to push forward their own agenda to attain higher and higher profit margins for themselves. I feel that you think I want to call for the end of Capitalism. You could not be further from the truth. I think Capitalism is a fine form of economy, but it is a horrible form of Government. I do not think that we should have artificially held up the Banks with a socialist bailout. The richest 1% lost nothing with their greedy, high risk investments. (that turned to no risk, when the government bailed them out) I advocate a strong Capitalistic economy. But, first we have to remove our Economy from our Government. In the same way that Religion was removed from our Government we have to make sure that the Market can not dictate legislation.
As for your hyperbole of who I am, you are completely wrong. Perhaps you could look at my profile before making gross assumptions? "I am a 34 year old father of 3 boys. My house is 52 months into foreclosure from Bank of America. I have never had Health Insurance. I had to drop out of college after my wife lost her job as a Restaurant Manager to start a small courier company that netted our family 8K a year for the last 5 years. My roof is leaking, my A/C and heater are failing, my appliances are all broken in some way, I have leaking pipes held together with plummer's puddy, my Septic system is failing and I have a warrant for my arrest because I can not afford to fix it. I am fed up. I am the 99%... "
Since I was 15 years old I have never been without gainful employment. I've fought and scraped and worked hard for everything I've had. To have it ripped away because of the greed of the 1% is pretty appalling. Often we have to decide to eat ramen noodles for lunch and dinner so to keep the lights and water on. I am lucky that my neighbor offered to share his wireless signal so my children can have access to the internet to further their education. This Revolution is happening, and it is long overdue.
Well the oppressors certainly aren't the 1%...its the government, which I might reiterate is why this entire movement is misguided. Certainly attacking the 1% might get the government's attention; but all blame should be placed on the government.
You are misinformed. The 1% control the policies of our government through manipulations of donations and lobbyists. Our Democratic Republic has been overtaken by Feudal Capitalist. We have to revolt against the Kings and Queens of Wall Street to return our Government back to the People.
Because the government is willingly taking donations, and responding to these donations with favors, the government is to blame. What would happen if the government didn't respond to such donations? Would the corporations have power to influence policy? No. So what then do you think is the root problem? The government. The corporations don't have some magical wand that makes the government do this.
"The corporations don't have some magical wand that makes the government do this." Not a magical wand. Legalized fucking bribery!! Once we take that out of the equation, government will become better. If it doesn't, we'll help you get rid of government. But if you believe what you claim, you will support this movement because it will lead to the outcome you want so badly.
I support this movement. However, many proponents of this movement do not know why they are right, instead turning to bogus ideologies and reform solutions.
Let me guess, you're another one of those "end the fed" Ron Paul supporters?? Because, I'll let you know ahead of time, that the protesters are not going to get behind that or any other purist ideology like Libertarianism or Communism. It's about reforming the relationship between government and business. Not ending business(Communism). Not ending government(Libertarianism).
I'm a libertarian. I think this movement is a step in the right direction towards my ideals, even if it doesn't mean getting rid of the government.
There in lies the rub. The Government is not going to enact legislation that the Banks do not want. They are going to pander to the people paying them. Electing new officials requires so much money that we will be trading one set of loyalties for another set of loyalties. All of which report to Wall Street. You have to effect change at the top of the pyramid. You have to attack the Dragon's head. This means we have to go after the banks until such time that it effects their bottom line so much that they have to relinquish control of our Government back to us. We have to get the money out of our Democratic Republic. Until our Government is free of the leash that our Market has on it, we can not be free. Our Government is not going to bite the hand that feeds it. So we have to cut off the feeding trough at the source. This is a horrible infestation in our Government and it will take a painful Revolt to rid ourselves of it.
The government has willingly accepted this "leash." Once again, the government hasn't been magically convinced by the market to vastly extend the power of the so-called 1%. The government is corrupt; it wants money; in order to get money, it does favors. I am not describing the methodology by which we should attack this issue, where maybe you are right, we should go after the banks first (I just don't know). However, the blame should definitely be on the government.
Greed is Greed. Both have it. We have no real power over the Government. Not really, our votes just elect a new cycle of greedy politicians. So we are left fighting the head of the Dragon. The Banks control the money. We have to attack them. We have to attack where they are weak, the Credit System. The banks need the 99% to fuel their greedy power structure by preying on them with the Credit System. However, this has vicariously given us power over them if we unite. United we can stop paying into their Credit System and weaken their control. Stop paying your mortgage, car payment, student loans, medical bills, credit cards, etc. Refuse to acknowledge their Credit System. If you have not already, remove your money from the 1% banks and put it in local Credit Unions. Sell your Stocks, Bonds, 401k's. We have to do this together. Then we can put enough pressure on the System to force them to release control of the Government. It will be brutal. It is Financial Warfare. But, it is the only power we have to right the ship since our Government refuses to do so for us.
Welcome back, boredperson. Please explain to me how this mess is the government's fault; I'm curious.
The corruption of the government caused them to create such relationships with big business. Corporations/banks would never be able to obtain such power in a free market without coercion. But alas, the government ably fills the role of the coercer. Certainly corporations are taking advantage of the government's corruption, but the problem is then of course the government's corruption.
So you're essentially saying that what we're looking at is government getting sloppy and letting corporations and investment houses gain all kinds of power that they really shouldn't have? True. That said, I wouldn't say that blaming only the government is the way to go. If something gets stolen from a vault and it turns out the guards were on the thieves' payroll, then by all means string up the guards for dereliction of duty. Just don't get so caught up in punishing the guard that you forget about dealing with the thief.
I agree in that the true criminal here is not quite so black and white. However, attacking the root problem, i.e., government corruption, would solve everything. Jailing a bunch of rich people or taking away their money (or whatever OWS actually thinks) would do nothing. Perhaps it will shape policy and get rid of crony capitalism, but of course what would such policy do? It would reduce the power of the government, i.e., the root problem.
Neither I nor most of the rational people on this forum believe in jailing people merely because they are rich or divesting the rich of their assets simply because they are rich. Essentially a large number of investment houses and financial conglomerates engaged in a shell game with mortgages and mortgage-backed securities, and in 2008 it collapsed and took the market (and a good chunk of the economy) with it. The arguments for prosecutions, lawsuits, etc. you're hearing are directed at the group of upper-tier personnel in the financial industry who were responsible for the shell game in question.
Also, reducing the power of the government is hardly going to fix things. Yes, the government has essentially played the crooked cop to Wall Street's thief over the past couple of decades, but your solution seems to be having no cop at all, which is even worse than the status quo. Much better to replace him and/or scare him straight while simultaneously cleaning up on the thief, which is what I and most of the other people on here are looking for.
The market serves as the cop. If Wall Street wishes to make money, it will no longer do what it has been doing. What has enabled Wall Street to engage in whatever thievery is the fault of the government. Without the government, A.) Wall Street wouldn't have the power it has to any such degree and B.) Wall Street would be responsible for its actions or it will lose money. I can't see how bringing in another body to regulate these businesses would solve anything. The government has created this situation, so then the government needs to regulate itself by creating laws that limit its capacity to deal with such businesses. In a free market, businesses/banks don't behave this way.
See, that's where you and I disagree. I don't believe that the market can be an effective "cop" for Wall Street, given the degree to which financial conglomerates have been able to manipulate it. I understand what you're saying; in a perfectly competitive market individual banks wouldn't be able to behave in the manner they have because consumers would simply move their money elsewhere and handle loans with other banks. That is a fair assessment.
The problem is that we don't have small banks fighting for customers a la perfect competition; we have bloated financial conglomerates doing as they please a la an abusive oligopoly. For your model to be valid we need small, independent banks and financial institutions among which we are free to choose. That will not happen unless someone breaks up the financial services organizations back into small banks, and the only group with enough power to do that is the government.
Well, perfect competition is not a facet of a free market. We may very well have a big bank with a large market share; if the bank wishes to do well, it won't cheat its customers. And of course, as you said, if the customers are cheated, they will move elsewhere. Oligopolies can only be abusive if the government creates barriers to entry, thereby restricting competition, as well as other potential favors.
"We may very well have a big bank with a large market share; if the bank wishes to do well, it won't cheat its customers." So... What caused them to cheat their customers??
Well, to what means of cheating are you referring? What circumstance? And if they have cheated, undoubtedly they will lose credibility and money. Just look at OWS; it's the perfect example. They're boycotting Wall Street, and now Wall Street is paying. Tah dah: capitalism.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-14/goldman-sachs-misled-congress-after-duping-clients-over-cdos-levin-says.html
Goldman Sachs is so intimately entwined with the government that it would be absurd to call this capitalism! The government has allowed Goldman Sachs to play unfairly in the market, considering their very close relationship.
Well as long as there are people willing to post, such as yourself, it will continue. Thanks for commenting...everything aids the cause.
I would say it's the Striking Legitimacy !
What is illegitimate about getting money out of politics (aka as ending corruption so that the 1% cannot simply buy the politicians)?
I agree that corruption needs to end. The whole 1% thing is a little misguided however, because we are blaming the 1% rather than the government. The illegitimacy I suppose would be the rampant socialism on these boards (which would make everything worse). It's hard, however, to tell exactly how representative this site is of the actual movement.
Yeah, the 1% won't change their ways because we ask them to. People are greedy by nature and we need laws to keep this greed from getting out of control.
Well, we need laws to protect us from the government, not from my fellow citizens' greed. Greed is good, except within the government.
The government was bought out by the 1%.
The government let the 1% buy it out. There is a difference. By making "to buy" passive, you remove all blame from the government.
Indeed money speaks louder than cries of hunger. Indeed our career politicians are responsible for this.
What we need now is a government FOR THE PEOPLE. What is more we need PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE. (See - Outsourcing and our addiction to job killing goods and services)
Oh and...for the PEOPLE!
I think weather greed is good or not is a bigger discussion..
But there are some points here that we need to end lobbying, or prevent greedy people from bribing greedy government officials. In the end, the voters do have the power to remove the greedy ones, or demand laws to prevent the greed in government.
And by the way, there are plenty of people who support this movement who work all day and don't have time to post all day on the forum.
If you want to bring liberals and conservatives together on this, which I think is a great goal to have, then you need to educate them a bit more on how our country got into this mess in a way that EVERYONE can understand. Please read this article that came out two days ago by an economist who articulates and offers a damn good, realistic solution to this confusion. The masses NEED to vote in the next presidential election and in order for them to be convinced we must have Obama sign a legal and binding contract stating he will repeal the nine economic measures listed in the article BEFORE the next election. Then send this out to everyone involved with OWS, even if you refuse to vote. The masses NEED to be educated about how this mess occurred so their causes can become more defined. http://www.truth-out.org/occupy-wall-street-movement-and-coming-demise-crony-capitalism/1318341474
Everyone running around with their own version of Hayek and claiming to now be an economist is kind of the most irritating thing I have ever heard of. Show me A.) your doctorate, B.) the difference between a business cycle and kondratieff cycle and we can have the discussion of stagnation and growth, C.) explain how you have found someone seemingly unknown from everyone in Hayek that proves political power can be divorced from Economics (it doesn't exist so do not scratch your head to much). I mean seriously this methodological individualism has been thrown out by every sociologist long ago and I still have to hear this ignorant rational choice theory we do not have society Hayekian morons who know absolutely nothing. You my friend and adversary are an idiot.
Methodological individualism has nothing to do with sociology. I'm not claiming to be an economist of any kind. I merely subscribe to a theory that makes the most sense and seems the most correct. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're getting at.
True, so many of them are very unorganized, misinformed, misguided, and nonsensical, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves, and thus help them become organized, informed, well-guided, and sensible. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
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If you see a republican congressman, piss on it
I’m going to make an assumption; no one commenting on this web page has the kind of money that it takes to cause the kind of destruction that caused this mess. You know you roll with truly powerful friends when you’re a CEO of a huge company and you do such an awful job that the company couldn’t even qualify for a bailout. Then you don’t get fired, instead, your friends on the board allow you to resign, so that (according to your contract) you can walk with $161,000,000. Now that’s power and wealth, and that’s what the CEO of Merrill Lynch did. The only thing the office workers got was a notice to have their desk cleaned out the next day.
I live a great life, but I would never put myself in these guys category, so I don’t feel this movement is against me at all. All these people that are acting like they’re the 1%, hell if that’s the case, maybe we should turn this site into a place where the unemployed can meet the 1% to get employment. If any of you are among those kinds of people, please forgive my assumption.
That would be a good idea actually....we could turn this into a job hiring site or something! I'm serious actually. Very good idea you have.
Bored person -- I agree -- there is a LOT of misinformation and less read people that are part of this protest. However I agree with OWS on a fundamental level, and I think you can agree with this too. The fundamental rules by which all of work within has been designed to fail, on purpose. This failure was expected and those who expected it want it to happen for they will be the ultimate profiteers -- it is a very perverse idea of capitalism, which will leave more than just the entitled empty handed.
Typical libertarian who can't understand things. Sure, lots of people don't know what they are talking about. Duh, Welcome to America. Haven't you listened to Republican supporters. They are probably the most dumb creatures around. Dems, too. But, there are those who do understand, can articulate, and are bright. Probably not too hard to find, either. So I suspect you did not try very hard. Your bias prevented you from doing so. Sure, you are going to hear a lot from uneducated, uninformed and passionate idealists, but that is par for the course. That is human nature. Shit, man. You don't get out much, do you. Most of the citizenry does not know American History and Politics. If you did, you would know immediately, that we have a Plutocracy. But, I was a history teacher and an organizer and activist. I rarely find people who know very much about either topic. Many think they do. But, you have to follow it and read, and reflect a lot to really get the big picture. Most are mesmerized by the superficial bullshit, like Elections. What a farce. The Constitution is totally outdated and it is doubtful anybody ever really paid much attention to the document. Certainly not the Capitalists until they ran into an obstacle. But then they got the Supreme Court to declare them individuals. How cute. That was only the beginning. So, to repeat myself: Plutocracy Rules and Owns nearly everything. They control the politicians through bribes (campaign contributions) and other perks and promises of making even more money once their term as a politician is over. The military industrial complex runs the show as Eisenhower warned us. See, here's the thing. You can claim that we have to follow the rules you and your ilk have laid out and ignore all the injustice, unfairness, imbalance of ownership, wages, unemployment, and rage. OR< you can get wise and pay attention. We are not complaining over nothing. And, we have the power to take the society down. So are you listening?? Do you get it it? Are you blind and deaf??? People are getting really pissed. And if the economy slides which it most likely will next year, then things are going to get real nasty? Capiche?
I was not looking for opposition to my political ideology; it simply appeared. It is rampant on this website, and I suppose I should not have to apologize for what I have observed to be incredibly pervasive. Yes, I am slowly realizing to some extent that this movement is not entirely made up of know-nothings. I agree with the general direction of this group. The very, very general direction.
Hooverville for you folks who forget.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfylLnHjcu0
First they ignore you, then they try to diminish the message, then they fight you, then we win.
I feel you are misinformed. Most Occupiers are college educated. We read Crime and Punishment, we studied Socrates. Why do you think this whole idea is socialization and communist. That is just a label that fox news has put on the movement. The truth is we are no longer interested in being slaves to people trying to sell us a bunch of bs we dont want.
Many college students are socialists. I've never watched Fox News in my life.
They are not socialists they are just voicing their concern with living standards being the worst they have been in the last 30 years while the top 1% has had it better than ever. They figure it is time to voice their concerns in our democracy. Or maybe these college kids understand that they are the ones on the hook for the trillions of dollars we have given to bail out companies which have been irresponsible and they are doing something which is ultimately American. I had no idea speaking out and expressing your frustration towards the government was a socialist movement.
It isn't. And this movement is not inherently socialist. However, many on here continue to make socialist demands because they don't exactly know why what they're fighting is bad. All they know is that it's bad. Granted, many deserve credit for having a decent formulation of "why."
My biggest point that could be socialist - Why cant people in privileged positions be willing to give others that are less fortunate free health care? No paper work no hoops to jump through and paper work but free health care. Its not a matter of Socialism or communism or whatever label people want to put on it. Its human generosity. It is wrong that people in power would deny another human their health, when it is completely in their power to give it.
OP, go play with the Tea Party. We don't need you here.
Unorganized Fascists, huh?? Do you even listen to yourself?? This is why I'm pro-choice. Your mother obviously did not want to have you, never loved you, and your whole life is so unlivable, you feel the need to spread hate to try and make other peoples' lives unlivable.
Yeah, that's exactly what I said...
“Americans are more afraid of the word “socialism” than they are of cancer, hiv or world war III. and they will fight it to their graves ….
Neither socialism or capitalism exist in nature without the other… Alone they are mere philosophies…
Seriously...this is ridiculous and frustrating how so many people think that capitalism has anything to do with this....
Capitalism without regulation has NOT just been demonstrated to fail. The corruption of the government is the issue. Crony capitalism IS NOT capitalism.....
fair enough... but it sounded good.. no.... ;)
ok, seriously... capitalism with out regulation..leads to Crony capitalism... no ?
The font was cool I guess. The government is not an inherent part of capitalism. Crony capitalism is created out of how the government responds to donations from businesses: for example, if the government says "yes" and returns the favor with lower taxes or whatever, crony capitalism emerges. If the government says no to these bribes, we don't have crony capitalism. So the emergence of crony capitalism lies within the hands of the government.
ok.... if there is no regulation... banks could charge whatever they want...monopolies can form... etc etc... capitalism for some (the greedy) will run wild.... the working people (US) ... get hurt...
capitalism with out regulation.. is unsustainable .... and fails
Banks wouldn't charge whatever they want. There would be other banks who would charge a reasonable price and then people would go there. If those banks started charging whatever they wanted, then other banks would pop up and make money off of that by charging reasonable prices. Monopolies don't form in a free market. By definition, a monopoly is a firm that has been granted exclusive control over the market by the government. The government creates monopolies. I probably don't wish to explain this to you in greater depth, but if you really want me to.... Greed is good; it creates innovation, technology, new anything, and increases the overall wealth. Capitalism doesn't fail without regulation...in fact, it's vastly more efficient. :)
well... I'll just say this right now,,, Greed for knowledge is good.... Greed for money... not so good....
Greed does not create innovation, technology... Capitalism with opportunity (access to capital) does...
just my opinion... :)
I am a cold blooded capitalist btw ....
Innovating is profitable. Greed drives the desire for profit. If you made the most important invention in the world, wouldn't you want money for it?
I have invented 26 machines... yes I wanted to make money from them... but not a zillion fucking dollars... I was not greedy ;)
A bunch of socialists and 'fascists'? Pretty bold claim, haven't seen many Roman salutes recently from pictures of OWS, nor talks of destroying the Untermensch. Also that it's not about distribution of wealth, let me use a quote from James Madison from Federalist Papers #10: "But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society." Property meaning wealth. Concentration and equality of wealth is the issue, will always be the issue as the 99 per cent protest for greater economical equality.
Concentration of wealth has nothing to do with anything. The fact that the government is corrupt and therefore allows those with money to manipulate it is the problem. Getting rid of the government would get rid of the supposed problems with the 1%. These problems would not exist in a free market.
Of course concentration of wealth has to do with something. It's such an old issue it goes back to the time of Rome. People don't want concentration of wealth for the top 1 per cent. And the free market isn't going to magically fix the problems of 1 per cent dominance of society; if this was true, then the 19th century, with its policy of laissez-fare capitalism in both Europe and America, would have been a paradise of competition instead of the workers' hell-hole that it was. Look at Pinochet's Chile, probably one of the biggest and best cases of laissez-fare capitalism in the 20th century, and it still has a high degree of inequality and now it's having social unrest over private vs. public education.
I can't say that I remember the laissez-faire capitalism of the 19th century creating a hell-hole for anyone......errrrr. Pinochet's Chile was great; what's bad about inequality? You mean when people are successful and make more than others? That kind of inequality? My God! What a horrendous system!!! But seriously. And good, there should be social unrest about private vs. public education (private being the better alternative of course).
You realize that the 19th century was so bad that little kids were getting paid like 5 cents per hour with such a huge mortality rate to the point that the English Parliament actually called a commission to remedy abuses, and made the max working hour laws and regulation on child labor laws? Try looking online for some of the testimonies, and tell me you won't cry when the little girl says she had lung problems after 6 months in the mines when she was perfectly healthy before. And yes, it was laissez-fare capitalism, Smith making the Wealth of Nations in 1776, and every economist back then was glorifying their society as the product of the free market. It was so bad that the great economists of the century, Ricardo and Malthus, were trying to find reasons on "why" society wasn't getting any better! It took, shockingly, government regulation, minimum wage and other "socialist and fascist" laws before society improved. Like the secret-socialist, Bismarck.
And yes, the inequality that has made it that the starving worker can look at his "social betters" and just say to himself "why can't I be like that guy?" Yes, their is no such thing as societal good, it should be such a dog-eat-dog world where if you're homeless, with no education because of privatized school and no health care from the privatized health, well tough, shouldn't have been so lazy. With this mindset, why don't we force children to get jobs again? Or how about we just do the logical thing and privatize schools in general, and if you can't pay to have basic education, well, your parents were just too lazy, stupid or etc. We should exalt the freedom of men like Warren Anderson, the former CEO of Bhopal Industries whose disregard of safety standards killed 10,000+ Indians. In the pure free-market, why should the government tell him what to do? Seriously. Making a profit, though not a bad thing to do, is not devoid of morals and ethic. If this was true, and morality is below profits, then I think society has devolved from the time of the caveman.
And the Chileans are calling for public education of course. When is the last time you watched the news of a riot where people were saying "We demand you privatize our education!"? When did the student protesters in England cry out for schools to be more privatized? People want education that they can afford. Yes, people can and usually do "want" to be educated without having to go without a dinner for a week with 3 jobs to pay the tuition.
Have you ever read Candide by Voltaire? You remind me of a quote from it, "The Fathers have everything, the people nothing; it's a masterpiece of reason and justice." That basically describes your view on society.
Ah, I forgot that one of the things people often call upon to criticize capitalism is the wonderful working conditions of the 1800s. The market had actually adjusted by the time governments began implementing child labor laws (which are dreadfully antiquated and need to be abolished). I don't have extensive knowledge of the time, but I do know that such depictions as yours are misinformed and misguided. Minimum wage causes unemployment. It is not efficient; it is bad. You actually think that privatized healthcare and education wouldn't find it profitable to serve a low income market??? How do you think that so many of America's poor are able to buy televisions and Cable and cell phones and microwaves and cars and houses and refrigerators? Forcing children to get jobs would be just as oppressive as forbidding them from getting jobs. Right, and in a free market, such a company would go bankrupt or lose lots of money. The government shouldn't tell him what to do because A.) the government is factually more inefficient than the market at allocating resources and B.) it's oppressive. Morality more or less equates to profits. Morality evolved because it is profitable. People don't demand private education because they think they're otherwise getting a free lunch. However, they don't realize the rampant inefficiencies of public education.
First off, I would love to see some sources on when the free market had adjusted itself when the markets readjusted when the gov. made the labor laws (and also, if the market had readjusted themselves before the time child labor laws, why would the governments of Europe have passed them at all? They only did it because of public pressure. And also, child labor laws in America persisted until the Progressive era, so around the turn of the century.) And yes, minimum wage is so horrible. They force businesses to pay money to people for work they do, without underpaying them! And of course public healthcare and education wouldn't conform to a low-income market. And the comparison between cars or refrigerators to healthcare and education is a fallacy, considering that its far more time, effort, money and specialization for both education and healthcare than the production of a microwave. Why do you think people don't say "I'm going to start up a private university and make lots of money"? You have to get teachers with degrees, board, food, etc.
And yes though government is more inefficient, it doesn't mean businesses are more humane by being efficient. And being 'oppressive' is so subjective it's laughable; is it oppressive for a consumer to know he's not having mercury in his soda? And morality does not equate to profits. If it wasn't illegal, and if I was a business owner, and I decided that it would be cheaper and more profitable to not fix a problem in the safety and someone dies, is it by nature moral because I made more money? Did the free market so utterly changed society that the nature of right and wrong became "will I make money or not?" Was it "moral" of United Fruit Companies to help overthrow the democratically-elected Guatemalan president in the 50s because he was taking the land they owned, and then they helped install a series of military dictators - dictators whom would eventually go on to commit genocide against the native peoples?
Well, I don't have any offhand sources. I can however tell you that by the time the U.S. passed labor laws, maybe 4% of children were actually working. I couldn't tell if your dislike for minimum wage was sarcasm. I never said that public healthcare/education wouldn't. However, they would be far more inefficient at doing so. I'm merely saying that private education/healthcare would find it profitable to cater to the poor. Even if those analogies are fallacious, it doesn't change my argument.
It is fact that morality evolved exactly because it is profitable. If you didn't fix a problem, and somebody dies at your hand....how exactly do you expect to keep making money? to keep getting customers at your door? Yes, we all want to go the businessman that kills people! A free market wouldn't have have fruit companies overthrowing governments....
Socialists and Fascists? Fascism is antisocialist. It encourages private enterprise, social Darwinism, class collaboration, and government intervention to maintain the status quo. What on earth does that have to do with socialization, workers self-management, and economic equality?
Perhaps I only meant that they result in similar outcomes. This is a flaw I'm aware of, but it doesn't affect anything, so I guess I don't really care.
yes his movement needs to get on track. its not about becoming wealthy, its about becoming wealthy at the expense of American jobs, and the fact that wall street bet on the housing market to crash while investing in the mortgages the whole time, its about insider trading and a bought and paid for congress that serves big corporate agendas and not the peoples.
The housing market crashed because of the Fed. Insider trading is actually beneficial as it allows the market equilibrium price to be reached more quickly.
You're caught in a slavery of the mind. You are part of the 99% but you insist on being isolated and divided. You lament the goings on around you with ferocity and yet you refuse to recognize the commonality with this movement that could set you free and empower you. This is where it's going. Please investigate for yourself and consider the fact that you are already a part of this http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-we-win-one-perspective-on-where-we-go-from-her/
Gosh, your name fits you. You are a bored person. You haven't taken the time to investigate what this movement is about. Here is what's happening. And you can't stop it. No one can. http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-we-win-one-perspective-on-where-we-go-from-her/
All true. All true. Smart as a Fox this poster be.
Cute. I do enjoy the "Fox News Fallacy" that people tend to throw around here, though.
Mon Ami, I did not think you would get the joke. Terrific.
You blow out words like socialists and fascists, without understanding the meaning like a Fox news blondie. Why?
Sir, I do know what capitalism is, I would say that myself I'm something like a libertarian socialist, i ABSOLUTELY do NOT believe in a planned economy, i believe in the free market and private property. BUT that being said, i DO believe that governments DO have SOME obligation to ensure that the economy is acting TYPICALLY and the governments place, as i like to sum it up, should be that Governments should not play Coach to the Economy but should play Referee.
All due respect, I think you should look up the definition of libertarian socialism, because it certainly is not pro-free market.
I should say it like this, I'm a Practical Libertarian and a Utopian Socialist.
The government has no ability to make sure that the economy is acting "typically" (although, to be honest, I'm not quite sure what that means). Only the market can "adjust" itself efficiently.
Don't feed the trolls. The trolls are wrong.
An unorganized misinformed misguided nonsensical group...OOOOh-you must have mistaken us for GM.
Maybe OWS needs a bailout? ;)
That'd be great!
If you see the constitution and the declaration of independence, you will see that they where well planed.
Problem is that the "Supreme" court decided that Corporations are citizens, thus they can contribute (read buy off) the political parties.
Never voted to raise taxes.
Never taken a congressional junket.
Doesnt take the Congress pension.
Never voted for an unbalanced budget.
The Solution can be found in a man of unwaivering consistency for over 30 years!
http://youtu.be/BeHHq8s6V7U
boredperson must be a cryptofascist
That's clearly the only conclusion you can derive from all of this.... I think you just wanted to use the term crypto-fascist...it is cool sounding; I'll give you that.
You are misinformed by the1% fearmongers propoganda but sadly I'm not surprised. My friend, let me ask you, how many protesters do you need to legitimize this grass-roots democracy movement? Will ten thousand marching in Washington be enough? Will one hundred thousand? If you don't see the very basic themes that run central to this movement regardless of political affilitations, age, race or religious beliefs, then you are probably one of the 1% percent. Not all participated in the forming of our nation either when BostonTea Partyists decided they had paid enough money to the King of England in outrageous taxes on their Tea imports. I'm certain many stood by wringing their hands, probably saying the young tea partiers seemed disorganized, misguided and nonsensical. They were afraid of reprisal from the powerful King. But a few brave men, today we call them true Americans, disobeyed and even went so far as to practice civil disobedience to stand up for their freedom and democracy. This movement is no different. All one has to do is search history and each revolution, as this certainly seems to be the beginning of, repeatedly begins with gross inequity's between 'the haves' and 'the have-nots' and most often has to do with 'the haves' deciding they want ALL of the pie. Despite the rethoric otherwise, there are two common themes among the diverse protesters. One, 99% of the people are completely Fed Up with corporate greed, illegal banking practices without prosecution, manipulated fuel prices, corporate handouts and the like, and two,99% of the people don't feel heard by their elected officials who in fact have bipartisanally passed laws and deregulated banks anti-trust laws to allow corporate corruptions to occur.
You are misinformed by the1% fearmongers propoganda but sadly I'm not surprised. My friend, let me ask you, how many protesters do you need to legitimize this grass-roots democracy movement? Will ten thousand marching in Washington be enough? Will one hundred thousand? If you don't see the very basic themes that run central to this movement regardless of political affilitations, age, race or religious beliefs, then you are probably one of the 1% percent. Not all participated in the forming of our nation either when BostonTea Partyists decided they had paid enough money to the King of England in outrageous taxes on their Tea imports. I'm certain many stood by wringing their hands, probably saying the young tea partiers seemed disorganized, misguided and nonsensical. They were afraid of reprisal from the powerful King. But a few brave men, today we call them true Americans, disobeyed and even went so far as to practice civil disobedience to stand up for their freedom and democracy. This movement is no different. All one has to do is search history and each revolution, as this certainly seems to be the beginning of, repeatedly begins with gross inequity's between 'the haves' and 'the have-nots' and most often has to do with 'the haves' deciding they want ALL of the pie. Despite the rethoric otherwise, there are two common themes among the diverse protesters. One, 99% of the people are completely Fed Up with corporate greed, illegal banking practices without prosecution, manipulated fuel prices, corporate handouts and the like, and two,99% of the people don't feel heard by their elected officials who in fact have bipartisanally passed laws and deregulated banks anti-trust laws to allow corporate corruptions to occur.
ORIGINAL POSTER: Okay folks, well it was interesting. I have class, so I have to go; I will no longer be responding to any more remarks. Say what you need to say, of course; however, I will not be here to address your frustrations or delight (not that this matters much to any of you; I just don't want any of you expecting a response from me). Good luck with all of this.
You are misinformed by the1% fearmongers propoganda but sadly I'm not surprised. My friend, let me ask you, how many protesters do you need to legitimize this grass-roots democracy movement? Will ten thousand marching in Washington be enough? Will one hundred thousand? If you don't see the very basic themes that run central to this movement regardless of political affilitations, age, race or religious beliefs, then you are probably one of the 1% percent. Not all participated in the forming of our nation either when BostonTea Partyists decided they had paid enough money to the King of England in outrageous taxes on their Tea imports. I'm certain many stood by wringing their hands, probably saying the young tea partiers seemed disorganized, misguided and nonsensical. They were afraid of reprisal from the powerful King. But a few brave men, today we call them true Americans, disobeyed and even went so far as to practice civil disobedience to stand up for their freedom and democracy. This movement is no different. All one has to do is search history and each revolution, as this certainly seems to be the beginning of, repeatedly begins with gross inequity's between 'the haves' and 'the have-nots' and most often has to do with 'the haves' deciding they want ALL of the pie. Despite the rethoric otherwise, there are two common themes among the diverse protesters. One, 99% of the people are completely Fed Up with corporate greed, illegal banking practices without prosecution, manipulated fuel prices, corporate handouts and the like, and two,99% of the people don't feel heard by their elected officials who in fact have bipartisanally passed laws and deregulated banks anti-trust laws to allow corporate corruptions to occur.
You are misinformed by the1% fearmongers propoganda but sadly I'm not surprised. My friend, let me ask you, how many protesters do you need to legitimize this grass-roots democracy movement? Will ten thousand marching in Washington be enough? Will one hundred thousand? If you don't see the very basic themes that run central to this movement regardless of political affilitations, age, race or religious beliefs, then you are probably one of the 1% percent. Not all participated in the forming of our nation either when BostonTea Partyists decided they had paid enough money to the King of England in outrageous taxes on their Tea imports. I'm certain many stood by wringing their hands, probably saying the young tea partiers seemed disorganized, misguided and nonsensical. They were afraid of reprisal from the powerful King. But a few brave men, today we call them true Americans, disobeyed and even went so far as to practice civil disobedience to stand up for their freedom and democracy. This movement is no different. All one has to do is search history and each revolution, as this certainly seems to be the beginning of, repeatedly begins with gross inequity's between 'the haves' and 'the have-nots' and most often has to do with 'the haves' deciding they want ALL of the pie. Despite the rethoric otherwise, there are two common themes among the diverse protesters. One, 99% of the people are completely Fed Up with corporate greed, illegal banking practices without prosecution, manipulated fuel prices, corporate handouts and the like, and two,99% of the people don't feel heard by their elected officials who in fact have bipartisanally passed laws and deregulated banks anti-trust laws to allow corporate corruptions to occur.
I'm sure you could have found a better word than "retarded".
Oh, wait...maybe I'm overestimating you.
hubris overload
Do you see what this guy just posted??? Look at this "Absolute poverty in America has arguably been wiped out. In fact, the quality of life between the poor in America and the very rich is relatively very, very little." What country is this fellow living in?
not country.....who's head is this guy living in.
America. How about you?
Did you read the comment where I said I taught in Philadelphia, PA?
This stuff is dangerous boredperson, I can't even imagine where you came up with the idea that poverty is almost irradicated...where do you live?
Well first, let's look up the difference between absolute poverty and relative poverty, shall we?
selective hypocrisy you pencil dick....capitalism or shameless capitalism....or high-fallutin capitalism. maybe topped with some subterfuge. conveyed with contempt and disgust. money does not buy respect, behavior warrants it.
Civility please. I don't think you are going to persuade this individual that he is indeed a "Pencil dick" and it discredits any good points you may actually have. I also think you have some good things to say but perhaps you should explain them simply and plainly. We must try to stop finger pointing and saying republican this democrat that! We are all victims of the media industrial complex's efforts to brainwash us into thinking that we all hold sympathies one way or another when in fact, we are all actually much more moderate.
I can't quite say I have any clue what you just said.
most hypocritical republicans would respond the way you did, and conscientiously understand exactly what I just said. you - selective defining of syntax/rhetoric when it suits your interest and ambition....same as the word capitalism.
Ummm, Capitalism, as far as I know, has one meaning. Absolute poverty, as far as I know, has one meaning. Relative poverty, as far as I know, has one meaning. Soooooo, Mr. I Hate Republicans And Fallaciously Attribute Certain Characteristics to All Republicans (even though I'm not a Republican), what exactly are you talking about?
really, just one definition. I've heard thousands in this country cite free-market capitalism...& any republican I've been subjected to do share certain characteristics & I come from a family of them.
Capitalism means that the means of production are private. Free-market capitalism means that the government doesn't intervene anywhere, including areas that don't involve the means of production.
wrong again: m-w.com
Definition of CAPITALISM : an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market
That's exactly what I said...
I don't think it's about absolute and relative. When you walk down some streets and fear for your life...these are the conditions which poverty manifests. It isn't some theoretical number or some such nonsense. It's common sense. When you see poverty, you know it. I bypass the arguments of "who is responsible" very easily by saying who is not responsible. Children growing up in these places are not responsible for whatever conditions brought them there. So we don't need to discuss welfare abuse or any such thing. The fact is, there are helpless and starving children who are victims of violent crime and gang violence, neglectful parenting and conditions laid by drug infestations. This stuff happens and it happens every day. You just don't see it, because clearly you are not poor. I lived it every day for three years, in three completely different sections of the city. It is very real and these kids are going to grow up just like mom if we don't stop it...notice how I said "mom", cause dad's in the penitentiary. Poverty is not only alive and well, it is in epidemic proportions in American cities. This whole OWS is about bringing attention to things which are being ignored. Important things. Life and death things. We need to grow compassion as a nation. It isn't about us and them...it's all us.
Ah look another goon attempting to cause us to disband baised on moronic assumptions based on dualities. Waaa they don't like my capitalism waaa they want to make life better... Waaa waaa waaa they must evil...
Just another dude that watches fox news without a braincell to his name.
Sorry I am tired and well, tired of trolls
I've never watched Fox in my life... I have no idea what you're talking about either. I could give you billions of pounds of empirical evidence to show you why capitalism is better than socialism...
You have provided a litany of opinions with absolutely no factual evidence whatsoever. Moreover, you have presented those opinions in a crude and offensive way. Why don't you present your evidence so that we may actually have a discourse about the subject. Because although your title "the striking illegitimacy of OWS" would seem to suggest that OWS has no legitimacy to its claims, you have also apparently provided multiple claims with no efforts to legitimize them. Put your money where your mouth is.
By no means, was I going to waste my time fleshing these out! I was just venting. :)
Well, my friend...these are sensitive times. Is it possible that I may persuade you to use more caution in expressing your views? Words are powerful, and with every word, you shape the discourse between individuals in this nation.
Duly noted. I'm a college student, I can't help it. I'm irrational.
Ah but you can help it :) So please do. And the more you DO, the more good you will DO. Thanks for being conciliatory.
Actually, I think it would benefit you and the rest of the people here if you would just take down the comment...rethink it...and put it up when you're ready to be serious and not just vent. Anyway, It's bedtime for me. Good to talk to you.
You're probably the only person to ever hear of the Austrian school. You must be super smart.
Thanks for the condescension? :P
No, thank you for your mind numbingly ignorant post.
I can't say that I understand....
"The group seems to be predominantly composed of socialists and fascists" Lol, opposite ends of the political spectrum, and that's just the 2nd sentence. It's a good tactic, it's the same used by TBTP. Bury the real issues is so much bs that even smart people have a difficult time digging through it all. Basically what I am saying, is you are a know-nothing troll.
I understand that they're different, but they result in similar outcomes. It seems like you pointed out my Austrian bit, so that you yourself could receive some of the ethos in knowing what that is? Good for you; I'm glad that you feel smarter as well. I'm not burying any issues...the government needs to be abolished, and that's that.
Correct, the Gov does need to be abolished, but to come out and say "the group is unorganized, misinformed, misguided, and nonsensical." is clearly ignorant, AND incredibly counter productive. Why don't you go and educate them instead of making stupid assumptions and baseless accusations? The mere fact that you "hope this movement dies" shows your weakness/cowardice. Instead of actually doing anything, you should just troll the forum, that is what it is here for.
By no means am I some sort of activist. I was just venting my frustrations about the rampant socialism and such throughout this group...which is exactly why I only wrote one paragraph. Of course, that gives me little credibility, but I wasn't seeking credibility.
Well, go "vent your frustration" on a corporate news site, or ZH or some other status-quo dick riding do-nothing site. Some people are actually DOING, and since you've clearly shown you don't know shit about what these people INVOLVED know or think just stay at home, and off these forums, or don't, I'm just calling your complete ignorance out.
I've read quite a bit on this site...I've seen what I seen, and have as such developed opinions. It's irrelevant to me that these people are fighting.
I understand that, it just makes you quite ignorant. Keep fighting exclusively for your own interests and you'll just be another body on the wrong side.
Ignorant would imply that I haven't read any of this.
Lol, Ignorant because you think this troll forum speaks for OWS.
Strike! That's not a bad idea.
And I agree that misunderstandings of economics are pervasive around here. If you can believe it, some people think capitalism is an economic system in which everybody is entitled to the fruits of his or her labor. I mean, how far off base can one be?
More government, less corporations, that's what I say. At least then we will have some input into what goes on. Give me a break. Are you crazy or what? http://sibob.org/wordpress/?p=8012
What an ignorant statement.... The government through force grants power to corporations. Corporations would never be able to, in a free market, obtain the power they have now. It's the government's fault that the things are the way they are... I'm afraid that this group at all represents any significant portion of the population... I guess you all really just love North Korea a lot or something.
Is that all you have, the red-baiting thing? In case you haven't heard, the Cold War is over, or do you want to start it up again, to justify the permanent war economy. And, I think you are pretty dumb yourself. http://sibob.org/wordpress/?p=8026
Red-baiting? Right, because my entire response consisted of calling you a fascist. Nothing to do with the government...or corporations... we might as well ignore that part, no? The "permanent war economy" is caused by the government...
You mentioned North Korea, and the last I heard they are considered communist. So by comparing "you all" to North Koreans, that is red-baiting.http://sibob.org/wordpress/?p=8026
Yes, I understand. But you've completely ignored the rest of what I've said.............. What hyphenated word should we call that? Ignoring-me? In-denial?
Thanks for the grammar lesson, that is what really counts here.
Sounds like you are misguided.
You've certainly set me aback with such a powerful argument! I concede, my god!
You didn't list one argument in a whole paragraph. I didn't list one argument in one sentence. Therefore nothing has been proven, except for the fact that I am more efficient than you.
Certainly, but you could have instead called me out specifically on one of my broad criticisms, albeit far more specific than yours... Although I wish not to argue about arguing, so if this at all sets the tone for future debate, we should just leave it at this.
I would say that your main error is the likely belief that free markets can exist in reality, which they cannot. It is like balancing a ball ontop of a pyramid; any breeze will cause the thing to roll far from its original starting point. The reason for this is that there is no such thing as perfect competition, which is necessary for a totally free market. If it were true that somewhat imperfect competition was a sustainable solution, then this would still be okay. But imperfect competition just leads to a compounding of advantages, which leads to more imperfect competition down the road and thus a run-away solution.
So we can discuss any number of possibilities for how the economic and political system should look like, but we should exclude all impractical and unrealistic models, and that includes so-called 'free market capitalism'.
Free markets can exist... Perfect competition is a facet of a perfect market....not a free market....common misperception. So, I can't say that I quite nearly agree with anything you said.
Oh okay, well, I guess I don't believe that any of the good things that would exist in a "perfect market" would be present in a "free market". Unless the competition is perfect, all of the assumptions about how things "work" in a market system are invalid and we can no longer say things like "the one who succeeds most in the market provides the best value for the consumer" and that "by taking care of themselves only each person in fact helps others".
So if that's the case, what would be any reason why we would want a "free market" system? What properties would that entail?
I believe that I am moderately confused about the first paragraph. I can however tell you what a free market would entail: efficient allocation of resources due to price mechanism; complete property rights allowing for maximum efficiency; no coercion; no monopolies; the equilibrium price would be arrived at more quickly; quality increasing while prices decreasing etc.
How can you expect that there be no monopolies? You do not think that success in the marketplace at one point in time gives that firm a competitive advantage in the future?
I have fleshed out the monopoly argument far too many times! :) I can expect that there will be no monopolies because competition is a dynamic process. Monopolies, by definition, are created by the government (i.e., given special rights that allow them to control the market) through barriers to entry (patents, licenses, tariffs etc.). There is always of course the potential for a very rare circumstance in which a monopoly occurs in a free market; however, this will be temporary and not something to which we should necessarily be opposed. There, of course, is more than that, but you perhaps get the idea.
the government must spend less, but will that cause some poverty-stricken people to actually die? And, If tax rates are lower we still won't have enough jobs for everyone---because: the real problem is that people are innately selfish. The rich people want to keep their money because they believe they are entitled to it. Many of them have no idea what it is like to live below the poverty level. They don't have sympathy for us because they think we are lazy or something. The system rewards those who make money in other countries and that is what they will do--the bottom line is the only important thing for them.
People are innately selfish?? Don't fall for this... The PTB have peddled this for too long. People are selfish, lazy, etc. But in reality people are ALSO selfless, compassionate, generous and altruistic-have I left anything out? The present system rewards and re-inforces selfishness. And, austerity measures along with the propagating of fear that "terrorists, "gays", "atheists","socialists", liberals", "un-American things" "welfare cheats" and "illegals" are to blame is the great lie that has invaded the belief system of many people in this country. In the meantime the real culprits are off the hook. That, is finally changing.
Rich people are entitled to their money...everyone is entitled to their money.... (Do you actually think that we owe the government our money, or other people?) The system rewards everybody. Absolute poverty in America has arguably been wiped out. In fact, the quality of life between the poor in America and the very rich is relatively very, very little.
I cannot BELIEVE that you just said that absolute poverty in America has arguably been wiped out!!!!! That is flatly FALSE. I personally taught music in inner city Philadelphia and I can most certainly tell you that poverty is not wiped out...not a little, not arguably, not at all! Take a stroll down 59th and kingsessing and you tell me if it looks the same as it does on 18th and spruce. The kids I taught...25% of them had only one parent who was in a shelter for recovering drug addicts. 98% of them were below the poverty line, receiving free lunch every day. And it's not just at that school...it's ALL OVER every major city in the country. God man...I got love for you but I am BEGGING you to correct your perception of this issue.
I don't believe that. I am allergic to gluten and rice and tomatoes and potatoes and oats---so my food costs more and most free food makes me ill. graduated income tax is necessary because some of us can't afford even another dime. I have been losing weight since my husband died. and am in danger of becoming too skinny.
Get rid of taxes! Get rid of the government! I don't even believe taxation should be an issue in all of this. And as it is, the top 1% pays 38% of taxes, and the top 10% pays 70%. Sounds pretty fair to me... I don't think you should be taxed at all! It relies on an unjustified social contract to which you never willingly agreed.
its bs that they are socialists and fascist, your just spinning and lying and attacking.
they are indeed unorganized and misinformed and nonsensical, and that culd have and should have been dealt with by creating an educational direction. sadly this forum is still a single long scrawl and we do not have sub forums depsite being promised them over a week ago, i must assume that we will need to find a techie to implement sub forums and a wiki some place else. You trying to tell us what is or is not an issue is not interesting. it is an issue, and it will continue to be an issue. Taxes are uneven. I hope you grow up and quit trolling.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
There is no more striking illegitimacy than that of the current, catastrophic STATUS QUO. The fate of our nation is in the hands of criminals who are running around scot free - free to finish their work of destruction.
Watch "Inside Job" and tell me that the lunatics have not taken control of the asylum!
The fate of our nation is in the hands of the government, not Wall Street or whomever. The government grants these corporations and banks power. Corporations/banks could NEVER in a free market obtain such power without coercion and violence and force (which is, of course, what the government does for them in order to increase its power).
True. "The fate of our nation is in the hands of the government" - but our government has sold out to the big corporations. So they are all criminals and accomplices.
"Obama is surrounded by Mafia!" recently declared respected spiritual teacher Deepak Chopra.
I think the lack of a common straight forward list of demands allows people to interject their personal and at times confused perspectives, making our cause appear that much murkier. To me we the 99%ers are those that have no voice in this country. It doesn't matter if you are a Republican, Independent, Democrat, Tea Partier, believe in Socialism or Capitalism. Contrary to what we believe none of us actually has a voice in this country. We have been taught to believe that if we elect our respective parties into power that our goals and ideas will be done. Well guess what people, it won’t. The only people in this country with a voice are the 1%ers!
Who are the 1%ers you may ask? Well I say they are the large corporations and special interest groups who TRULY run this country. They are the groups of individuals who spend millions upon millions of dollars each year to convince YOUR congressman, YOUR senator, and YOUR President to do what best suits them regardless as to what's in the best interest of the rest of the 99% of this country.
Think about it, the root of every problem we face as a country regardless as to political beliefs boils down to who's willing to pay the most money to see their agenda done. So until we fix this system of legalized BRIBERY also known as lobbying this country will never ever be the place we dreamed that it could be.
Oh and if you don't believe me, ask yourself when was the last time you tracked down your congressman or senator in the capital between meetings and offered up a large sum of money in order to see a piece of legislation passed that best interested you?
Arguing that a government is representative is of course indefensible. But the government (which might I liken to the mafia), grants the power to this supposed "1%." Getting rid of the government would then solve this issue, not redistributing the wealth. The government is a protection racket; it has guns; it wants money.
can't get rid of government. can change the government. this is smoke and mirrors bs. the problem is the corporations, which have infiltrated and taken over government. right wingers deflect that by making government the boogeyman. nonsense.
I believe you have cause and effect backward.... The government appears. It allows corporations to influence it. One of the main criticisms of government is that it is and always will be susceptible to corruption (as it is composed of human beings). The corporations haven't infiltrated the government. The government has left the door open and invited the corporations in.
i'm sorry, thats ludicrous. you are the one who has political science and cause and effect backwards, your trying to blame government to leave corporations blameless. Thats a con scam lie and its an ignorant and old con scam lie and trick and standard talking point and belief of far right wing ideology - its also completely detached from reality.
I don't care about corporations. Corporations are not inherently bad (you can, by no means, prove that they are "bad"). The government, however, will always be inefficient, corrupt, and oppressive. The government has guns and uses coercion to get what it wants. Corporations CANNOT do this without the government.
i agree, they are not inherently bad- just like a crocodile, ... they have their nature. which. is inherently to eat things without a conscience. Whats needed is meaningful regulation, by the government, to make corporations ethical. Saying the government will always be etc is absurd, the government we have is all of those things because corporate oligarchy made it like that. a genuine democracy can create an egalitarian society and more importantly the only alternative is anarchy, which is not going to allow for a free market system either. grow up and face reality and quit pretending that you knwo what you are talking about.
What is needed is no regulation. "Meaningful regulation" has ALWAYS been proposed, but there is no such thing; it is oxymoronic. Here, how about this: What is a better situation, a bunch of corporations without a government to give it power, or a bunch of corporations with a government that will allow them to expand their power?
Meaningful regulation is not an oxymoron. I agree that morality policing is obscene but regulation is necessary when the market outcome is undesirable.
"no regulation" is the problem, because corporations can't be ethical unless there are laws and regulations to control them. again. you are talking nonsense and have no clue what you are talking about. you are ignorant, duped, and clueless, you have no business out here trying to tell us whats real or what to do or sharing your duped and ignorant opinion. its garbage, detached from reality, and lunacy.
Of course corporations will be incentivized to be ethical!!! Their consumers will DEMAND it. It's really sad that so many people believe that the government is needed to keep in check businesses from going all crazy. Businesses won't go crazy because THEY WON'T MAKE MONEY!
sounds like a capitalist fantasy. back in reality, what happens if government does not stand up to and in the way of corporate excess is corporations go rogue and rampant and start racking up victims.
Back in REALITY the problem with capitalism is it is inherently oligarchic and always will be. Back in REALITY meaningful laws are required to keep corporations honest just like the meaningful laws to keep people honest.
The empirical evidence simply doesn't back you up.
nope, the empirical evidence is absolutely on my side, which, is fun.. you can only say BS. you can't actually link us to any empirical evidence.
Okay. Well, genes to some extent dictate that you will be against capitalism (weird,huh? new study). So, I suppose I shouldn't fight genes. Yes, I'm veering away from the main point, but I can understand that this conversation is better left for a forum where I have much more time, as well would you.
I agree with boredperson. Except that bit about ABCT.
That's a shame!! ABCT rocks!