Forum Post: Get Focused, We Need Leaders!
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 3:43 p.m. EST by gmanning
(6)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I wish the Occupy Wall Street movement would get more focused. It says it's a leaderless revolution, but I think that is detrimental to the cause. Someone needs to intelligently relate our expectations to the government. Right now it just seems like a bunch of people bitching about corporate greed. Although I'm happily surprised that people in our generation actually get off of FB to get outside and show support, what are we supporting right now other than a tirade directed at the world's corporate greed in general?
Appoint leaders (or someone step up and take ownership), intelligent ones, and speak god dammit. I'll donate every damn penny I can if yall can do that. Hell, I might even take a leave from my job to come camp too.
Seriously, how are you going to make any change unless you focus on a specific goal, such as ending corporate lobbying in the US? Not that we need one specific leader for the entire cause, but really, if everyone sees themselves as being together with everyone else, then there is no one giving the cause direction.
Yesterday people were suggesting a spokesperson instead of a leader - though many interpreted them as the same. The general feeling is "no leaders", but that doesn't mean someone can't become one by speaking for people intelligently, and organizing a successful group.
I think after long enough, people will welcome a leader.
I agree, the people need a group of people to lead the way through their voice. When has any historic movement ever not had a leader? When did an army ever win a war without leadership?
I'd look into the general idea of having a council of spokespeople to assemble and transmit ideas, demands, etc. to the rest of the people, simply to cut down on fragmentation and deal with fringe nuts who troll in person (telling the media we want to overthrow the government or that 9-11 was an inside job) and make us all look nuts.
As far as specific goals, it appears that the movement is coalescing slowly around campaign finance reform and recreation of Glass-Steagall. There are other, more comprehensive and detailed lists of ideas floating out there; I put this one forth earlier to see if people were willing to listen to it: http://occupywallst.org/forum/idea-for-a-possible-general-set-of-goals/#comment-61013 From here, I guess we'll see what happens.
You're asking how we're going to make a difference without having any official leaders at the moment? Up until last week, I completely agreed with you. But I'm looking at this in a whole new way now. Here's my answer to your question http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-we-win-one-perspective-on-where-we-go-from-her/
Exactly, we need leaders, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted a 1-page Summary of the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
We are focusing. It takes time. Right now we are growing and forming communication networks. We need to embrace as many Americans as we can, regardless of their ideology and politics. Then, we need to find the things we all agree on. Then we move forward as one with all of us as leaders.
The moment you select specific leaders, you lose people who disagree with them. We want everyone marching forward so noone is disenfranchised. That is what happened to the Tea Party.
Very good point. I hadn't really thought of that, however, a leader in the way I suggest is really just a consistent voice, voicing the consensus of all the protesters. That being said, the more I read, the more I agree that this is just the beginning and it IS going to get more focused. Voices will rise when someone is there to listen, I just hope that with so many people acting as one, it's the voice of reason and not someone that destroys the growing legitimacy of the movement.
I agree, ultimately this needs to be translated into 'how to get there'. But through all the bitching, we are also slowly zeroing in on consensus. You summarized the consensus I have heard so far. How would you proceed?
Honestly, I feel like the biggest change we could make is to illegalize corporate lobbying. Yes, there are already a ton of bad policies in place that were put there by corporate lobbying that will need to be undone, but until corporate dollars can no longer determine our policies changing any other policy will just be a temporary setback for coporations.
Exactly
Ladies and Gentlemen..
When we say Revolution, I often feel that this concept is misleading, do we want a VIOLENT overthrow of the Government? haha NO, plain and simple.
If I had to say, one thing that WE must stand for... it's that the ideas of Liberty, Freedoms, Rights, the things that form the State, change, what we see is that change now. The Founders we know and admire passionately understood one thing; that a dynamic society, that uses its Reason, Logic and Skills, will always check the Government, ensure that because of those things, improve ourselves and our government.. That times change. they grew up in a time period where the social statuses of the 16th and 17th centuries, the people like Locke, Hume and Rousseau... Reason created this government, our Government, truth be told is the product of the greatest experiment ever undertaken, whether men, with Reason alone could THINK out a country, on paper. What does this mean for US? We MUST understand that we must only use the same tools we have had since the birth of this Nation.
We must become introspective, understanding that after 200 years of experiment and testing... that.. we have some results, for example we can CLEARLY say that legislated racism does not work with Liberty, but against it! we must as a whole reassess our virtues, our foundations and the culture of our society. What can we say! ladies and gentlemen. about our involvement in other countries in the past 200 years? What can we say! ladies and gentlemen. and civil rights and freedom of expression? these questions beg to be answered and I say now we can answer them!
Our Culture, Our Technology, Our Times, have led us to a place where i would stand and say that we DO NOT stand on the brink of oblivion but stand at a chance for opportunity in this country that hasn't been seen in years.. Something our Founders would have wanted to see... The Second Enlightenment...
I agree. I am hoping maybe some of the boomers with experience in organization will step up. Still it is important to remember that this is happening at a pace that is hard to latch on to. Twits and feeds and chats, who can wrangle it all. This is a movement, an important movement. It will get crazy. Who chooses leaders? How are they made? Will we get Abbey or Adolph? This is important.
I agree with you (see: http://occupywallst.org/forum/importance-of-solidarity/ ) but rest assured there is some direction being settled upon (see: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/ ).
It may not be known by all supporters yet or posted on the website but by the organic and voluntary interaction of thousands of individuals as aided by social media, a concrete, cohesive movement is taking shape. Keep in mind that the movement is still in its infancy and needs more time to grow but I have high hopes.
Here is one of the most well articulated statements I've found: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-message-imo/
Leaders have agendas. Leaders use people. Leaders tell others what to think instead of letting them to think for themselves.
Seek allies, find similarities, share ideas, share work, but do not seek leaders. Seeking a leader is saying: "Hey I am too lazy to think for myself, would someone please do it for me?"
Concentrate on the similarities and fight to get results. A war is won by many small victories.
Leaders also serve as guidance to the people, they help remind what they fight for, they give support to those who cannot find comfort, they persuade the masses who still are not on the same page, some people can't think for themselves and ultimately become bandwagoners and just do it because he/she did it.
Education serve this purpose. Is better that a person know what he/she is fighting for instead of following whatever the leaders tell them to do.
You can have representatives. Let every 10 people discuss between themselves and select 1 to represent them. Then let every 10 of those select 1 to forward what they want. Continue to do so until you get 1 that gather all the points that the people want.
And guess what, you get people that actually know what the purpose it. Instead of Person X deciding to forward its own agenda.
You realize that in order to do so that requires one person or two to be able to "oversee" this and hence the leader. I agree with the education portion but how do you educate? How do you decide what the cause IS going after? Who decides this? Who approves this? Funding? I think a handful should serve as leaders and should be able to be removed if the people deem necessary. The people are lazy, i guarantee 51%+ of those protestors have not done any research on what this is about and they just go out thinking they are doing right just because of a few stories they've heard. These leaders create unity and they do as they are told by the people. Wars are not won by random acts, wars not are not won without the leadership with the clear concise goal. I am on your side, don't forget that.
You mean an overseer, not a leader. An overseer authority is only to inform the decision of the group. In other words, a messenger, not a leader.
Absence of leaders do not mean absence of organization.
But absence of leadership creates a lost cause. The difference between a riot and a protest is that it is organized by few and led by many. In order to keep that mentality a leader/overseer is required. Name one war won without leadership, guidance of one or few, name one historical event not one by leadership. Name one cause not achieved by leadership and unity. Again I would like to tell you that I am on your side, I agree with you, leaders are tyrant that serve with their own agendas at times, but this agenda would allow for him/her/them/ to be overthrown as deemed necessary.
Not necessarily. People just need a common cause. The messenger is not important, what is important is the message. And is important that the message comes from the people and not being filtered out from persons with other agendas. No one knows everything. No one is infallible, and the more people understand a cause, the more likely that the flaws and strength of the cause are found.
The problem is their is no concise message. Without a leader to point it out, its hopeless as is this refuting between us. Clearly we have opposing views in which neither side is willing to budge.
Then the need is on clarifying the message. Who gives it, its irrelevant.
That much we can agree on. Haha
NO! We need a panel of leaders that can communicate and be at multiple places. Not just one. The movement DOES need leadership. Otherwise its lock a flock of headless chickens running around with no idea where they are going. Look at the demands some people make, they differ from the demands of others, we need someone to publish specifically what the movements wants to achieve and how they plan on doing it. A specific agenda without 100,000 people outside all asking for a different thing. A few good articulate people who can persuade and remind the people why they are doing what they do, so that the government can hear from the voices of few the cries of many. Find a web page builder, build one site to communicate the voices and delete the wikis with false information. If you can do that, then it will be taken even more seriously. Currently, the press is not on the peoples side yet, but that can change with the right leadership. This movement should be a government in itself.
THIS IS SO IMPORTANT RIGHT NOW AT THIS STAGE IN THE MOVEMENT!!!! We have the ideas flowing in left and right. Now, who decides which we can focus on? Who can we trust to stay on track and keep us updated with the truth?
If not actual leaders, a better forum than this one, as 'gawdoftruth' mentioned. I came to the forums hoping to find some more clarity than the actual protests, but this is even more confusing! Someone/some organization needs to step up soon, before supporters like me start questioning the worth of our efforts.
here's mine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw
Man, thank you for saying this. Though I don't think it's our job to make policy (we pay our government leaders to do that), I do believe that the fact that we don't have direction will come back to haunt us. Our so called leaders will continue to play stupid and simply act like they don’t see what the problem is. The only way (I believe) we can make a difference is to get in their pockets. Three months ago I started something that I believe strongly will work (details at http://sites.google.com/site/onecompanyatatime). Even if we don’t do what I recommend, we need to do something that takes advantage of our numbers.
You are right. We DO pay our government leaders to do that, yet instead of acting in our interest they work in the interest of MORE money from corporate lobbying to decide what policies to put in place. That being the case, it IS our job to make the changes necessary to keep politicians honest and working in OUR interest, the PEOPLE, not a fictitious name with no morals and by definition a goal only to reap the benefits of our time and efforts with as high of a profit margin as possible.
I agree with all that you stated. I'm supporting an act to GET MONEY OUT of politics, because I believe that is the one thing that will cripple our country. We have other problems, but I think this will bring us down faster than any other problem we have. If we don't correct this problem we will be no better than a third world country, where only a few benefit from any policies set by our government.
plenty of people stepping up to be leaders.... Obama, Reid, Pelosi come to mind....
Really? I haven't seem them do anything involved with Occupy Wall Street. I mean, Obama is trying to pass a bill to get more jobs in the market, but that is hardly in response to all this.
i also wish it would get more focused. leaders is not the solution. the solution is a wiki and sub forums. apparently we need to find a techie who can put up a wiki and good strong multiple forum org, because this site has no real intention of doing that or is incompetent to do it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/i-am-homeless-joe-jp-morgan-chase-accidentally-for/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/can-we-end-the-fed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-end-the-federal-reserve-and-what-do-you-replac/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
By that last comment, I only mean that the crowd effect creates indecision and confusion without someone to stand up and give it meaningful focus and direction.
It comes.Yeah, there is confusion and indecision on a lot of stuff.. and there always will be. However, by using intelligent civil discourse and debate... we can encourage people to change their minds. Areas that remain confused or embattled won't succeed. You need to concentrate on things we do agree on.
We don't want to brainstorm with the troublemakers. It's best to grow naturally through the people.
Article V of the US constitution is our first constitutional right. It is a specific goal that can include all issues. When 34 states apply for an article v convention, and congress fails to convene delegates, the military will step in and force government to be constitutional.
Yes, and it will take Article V to do that if that is going to be the way it goes. I think IF this movement can focus on the obviously dominant existing laws, and invoke them specific to be able to vet its many demands first, (see my page on revising the First Amendment in the beginning so we can share info and form opinion informally.) http://algoxy.com/poly/meaning_of_free_speech.html then educate ourselves and align our opinions with facts as well as we can between the peoples of each states, then the state, and WE HAVE JUST RATIFIED an amendment.
NOW, all government must change their act to become constitutional
Enforcing the existing laws will go quite away to meeting some demands. Ending laws that favor corporations that will not ever be sustainable will help. Seeing that war is never conducted outside the constitution. The federal reserve and economy obviously needs constitutional regulation, perhaps just enforcing what is there will do however from what I've learned. Corporate person hood can be dealt with. Everything we need done can be done through an article v convention.
You all are great! I feel the only way we can get back on safe financial footing again is to close the Enron Loophole for oil speculators and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which prevented the current banking and insurance scams/loopholes. After all, it worked great until late 90's when Congress threw it out. Since then, like prior to 1933, we are experiencing what our country went though then, total Wall Street greed with no penalties, its all legal now...Thanks to the architects of our new system in 1999, President Clinton and Senator Gramm. Cheers to all that are involved! Jim
Why we need Glass-Steagall to be reinstated:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wXj http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/
Why are oil prices high?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-kExdTgNZA&feature=channel
How about this:
I feel the only way we can get back on safe financial footing again is to close the Enron Loophole for oil speculators and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which prevented the current banking and insurance scams/loopholes. After all, it worked great until late 90's when Congress threw it out. Since then, like prior to 1933, we are experiencing what our country went though then, total Wall Street greed with no penalties, its all legal now...Thanks to the architects of our new system in 1999, President Clinton and Senator Gramm. Cheers to all that are involved! Jim
Why we need Glass-Steagall to be reinstated:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wXj http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/
Why are oil prices high?
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wXj http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/