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Forum Post: You are not the 99%. You are the 47%... That pay no income taxes.

Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 11:45 p.m. EST by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

The top one percent pay almost HALF the income taxes in the country. The bottom 50% pay almost NOTHING.

Yet you are protesting the top 1%? You are protesting the people that create the jobs, the people that buy more products, the people that spend more than the majority of the country?

I think you guys would LOVE and I mean LOVE Pre-1989 Russia. I escaped Russia for a reason, that reason is people like you.

You idiots got yourselves into debt making stupid choices and taking out loans for useless arts degrees. Many of you probably lived off of your parents for 25 years and never worked a day in your pathetic lives. You are complaining about being broke, in debt, and not having healthcare. Yet you can afford to sip starbucks while you type stupid messages on your MacBook Pro's.

Adult life is about responsibility. You weren't responsible and now you want the government to take care of you.

Fuck you. Shave, take a shower, and go to a few job interviews.

274 Comments

274 Comments


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[-] 4 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

grow up and quit trolling. http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/

[-] 1 points by CapitalismRulesPeriod (160) 13 years ago

do you just have one starting post for everybody you don't like

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 13 years ago

Yes, he does. I asked him about it once.

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

hey cool, my post made your "stuff to pay attention to" list! awesome!

[-] 2 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

yep... hmm... :)

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

OWS isn't your personal billboard for your political candidate.(thats mine) I'm just glad that I haven't been talking to myself.

[-] 2 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 13 years ago

i have aspergers syndrome, i can read a page in about one tenth or one twentieth the speed of most people, pretty much like they take 2 or 3 minutes and i take 10 or so seconds.

I do my best to read as much as i can. I can't respond effectively to everything but i do count the saner folks carefully and try to stow away their help in case i need it later.

I am listening to everyone and a lot of people who didn;t make this list will make newer lists. I suppose i can't read all of the threads... which.. tells me that its not possibly probably for anyone else either save somebody with photographic memory..(which i don't have.) Anyhow, I am just letting you know that in my rush to attend to putting out the small fires theres usually not a lot of time to really let others know how much you appreciate their good efforts.. I guess that goes out not just to you but to everyone. We are working, and i am doing my best most surely to listen... and listen a hundred times more than i post.. lol

[-] 1 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 13 years ago

How can somebody with severe dyslexia read so fast? You couldn't seem to read that Markdown syntax documentation that I showed you. You read super fast but you don't understand anything?

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

Hell yeah man! Thanks for everything and for being on here most of all.

[-] 3 points by lifeofliberty (5) 13 years ago

You pose yet another straw argument. Taxation is not equally applied to all, nor are they equally spent on all, or distributed fairly or responsibly, and therefore this point of yours is actually baseless.

You are also seeking to broad brush the entire mosaic of protesters as a single group, also an error. It's very clear that it is not, but is made up of people even like yourself.

I think what you are really upset about however is yourself. Your pathetic life is rather miserable, isn't it? Too bad for you, but maybe you should get up and go do something about it.

[-] 1 points by chigrl (94) 13 years ago

How is the truth a straw argument? If you don't want all of the protesters to be lumped together in a group then stop lumping all wealthy people and corporations together in a group. Rich does not necessarily mean evil. I'm also sorry you feel the need to personally attack someone who tries to speak a little common sense.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

It's a straw man for 2 reasons.. 1- THE STATISTIC DOES NOT INCLUDE PAYROLL TAXES!!! 2- I'm sure if those that don't pay could make a fair wage, they would pay a proportional amount of taxes.

[-] 1 points by ks6 (12) 13 years ago

What's a fair wage? You want everyone to make 40k a year or more regardless of the kind of work they do and how much they do it? A banker working 14 hour days deserves the 100k he takes back home and the guy flipping burgers at McD deserves whatever he takes home. The notion that pay isn't fair just because it is too large or too small makes no sense.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

You're right. It's not fair that bankers got trillions of dollars in government welfare via TARP to continue gambling with other peoples money and spend it on making sure they never get regulations to prevent another collapse while the guy flipping burgers is paying for it.

[-] 1 points by chigrl (94) 13 years ago

Payroll tax is what is deducted each paycheck and then a portion (or all of it for the 47%) is refunded to you if too much was withheld. Income tax is what the government actually keeps from you. So a payroll tax statistic would be a much poorer marker of the money the government is taking from you each year.

[-] 2 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

Again, you stupid fuck.. The statistic completely ignores ALL PAYROLL TAXES. You're pretending payroll taxes are a subcategory of income taxes because you haven't looked it the fuck up. I hate to be vulgar but you people have become so goddamn ignorant that there's no other choice. LOOK IT UP!!! LOOK IT UP!! LOOK IT UP!! http://onforb.es/oyJKnt http://bit.ly/iZbD4a

[-] 1 points by chigrl (94) 13 years ago

Why does everyone on this site devolve into incoherent vulgar rambling at the least challenge of their views? I did look it up and it was very difficult to find a straight answer about what the difference between Income tax and Payroll tax was. I am not a tax professional so I went with what I was best able to piece together and I don't think I am entirely wrong. I looked in to it a little more (although your websites did not provide any useful information on what payroll tax is), and it looks like payroll tax "Tax an employer withholds and/or pays on behalf of their employees based on the wage or salary of the employee" does go towards things like SS and Medicare, but anyone who gets a tax refund is by definition getting a refund of their payroll tax, so the government does not keep all payroll tax taken.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/payrolltax.asp#axzz1aQLxKa1V

I hope you are able to calm down, think rationally, and stop yelling at people who are trying to educate themselves.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

Correct. They don't take ALL of it. They give some back based on the overall amount you made minus deductions. Is there some fundamental problem you have with people that pay taxes all year long rather than just 1 time a year?? Are we all freeloaders because we pay taxes 52 times while others pay only 1 time a year?? The statistic you mentioned is a disgusting attack on people that pay payroll taxes. If not, then what is the point of the statistic?? Is it to intentionally mislead people into thinking that 47% aren't paying their fair share because that would be a deliberate lie that, again, treats people that pay payroll taxes as freeloaders.

[-] 1 points by chigrl (94) 13 years ago

huh? I didn't mention any statistics. And what are you talking about paying taxes only 1 time a year? People who only get one paycheck a year? And shouldn't a fair share of taxes mean a fair share of all taxes including income tax?

[-] 2 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

Unlike you, I don't completely ignore either side of the equation. Of course federal income taxes count. But your 47% nonsense ignores a huge part of the equation, which is payroll taxes. I have nothing wrong with people that don't pay payroll taxes unless they go around bitching that everyone else is a bunch a freeloaders.

[-] 1 points by chigrl (94) 13 years ago

It's not my "47% nonsense". I didn't make up the statistic and I didn't write this article/post. I didn't call anyone a freeloader. I'm not really sure where you are getting these things that I did not say.

[-] 1 points by joewealthyhaha (152) 13 years ago

TLdon007 save your time, chigrl is an idiot

[-] 1 points by RolandA (8) 13 years ago

You are not taking into account that the "47 percent" pay a larger percentage in proportion to their income sales taxes, excise taxes, federal levies and tolls, and so on. The top 1 percent and more like 10 percent are able to DEDUCT BS itemized items and pay NOTHING in income taxes and you say that is fair?

[-] 1 points by Flsupport (578) 13 years ago

Furthermore, they dont care about having to pay. What they do care about is inequity and injustice.

[-] 1 points by Anomnomoose (44) 13 years ago

Wow life, already at slander? Is your mac dieing? Better go to a starbucks quick and plug it in.

[-] 0 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I am broad brushing 80% of the protesters who do not know nor understand what they are protesting. I am actually really happy with myself. I go to school, I work hard and I play hard. Do I have debt? Yes. About $20k worth. But you don't see me whining and blaming someone else.

And you are correct, taxation is not equally applied to all... close to half of Americans pay almost nothing in taxes.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

"And you are correct, taxation is not equally applied to all... close to half of Americans pay almost nothing in taxes." That is the biggest lie I ever read in my entire life.. THEY PAY PAYROLL TAXES YOU BRAINWASHED FUCKING IMBECILE!! This only pisses me off because it was stated by every news source after this disgusting attempt to declare class warfare was put out by the Tax Foundation.. You are a fucking unpatriotic piece of trash for trying to spread it more.

[-] 1 points by PierpontLuv (38) 13 years ago

This is how the "protestors" respond to an intellgent arguement...with name calling and profanity. Excellent.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

You're calling a deliberate lie an "intellgent arguement"?? So not only do you not fact check what you believe. You also don't spell check what you type.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Yes... and when you do your taxes, you have these things called DEDUCTIONS. Those deductions give money back to you. Correct? Then, you get a tax RETURN, which is the MAJORITY of what you paid in taxes.

So, when you factor everything in, the vast majority of Americans pay no taxes.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

I mentioned deductions in another post. However I love how you equate any DEDUCTIONS with PAYING NO TAXES AT ALL. God you people are so transparent and pathetic.STOP CLINGING TO YOUR STUPID ASS MISLEADING STATISTIC. By the way, most deductions take place in the upper tax brackets.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

You sir, are incorrect.

[-] 1 points by asapixgirl (3) 13 years ago

The point is that Wall Street rigged the game. It is not fair any more. Don't expect it to be. Work hard, go to school and still get stuck with the loans. Now is the time to follow through with persecutioning fraud.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

No one forces you to take loans.

[-] 1 points by IndenturedNation (118) 13 years ago

How many who have not started out rich already raised and provided for their families and own their homes completely without ever having gotten a loan? Anyone? Now is it fair for banks to raise the prices of homes with loose lending practices then deflate the prices of homes by foreclosing on millions of homeowners? Who is really responsible for the home market? Is there anyone determining what homes are worth other than the banks? Is there really a free market?

[-] 2 points by IndenturedNation (118) 13 years ago

The vast majority of the people in this country who work to the bone and live paycheck to paycheck and go more and more into debt over their lives just to provide basic sustenance to their families are not lazy or irresponsible. This is not the USSR, this is something else entirely. This is a nation that has been subtly corrupted to serve the few over many decades. The US has become a Generally Indentured Nation, owned by the bank & gov and a very few wealthy people.

[-] 2 points by BadAss0830 (68) 13 years ago

They have almost half of the country's wealth!!! Of course they should pay half our taxes. This argument continues to pop up but, logically, if you wanted to a piece of pizza, would you go to the guy with one slice and take half of his, or would you go to the guy with 4 slices and take a whole one of his? This is common sense sh*t here.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

So again, do they pay their fair share of taxes?

[-] 1 points by BadAss0830 (68) 13 years ago

No! Not at all. Top tax on top earners in this country is nowhere near what it needs to be. You can go through history to any "hay day" in America and you'll notice that the tax rate on top earners was much higher. They were 'hay days' because we had our economic policy right (not just taxes but for the sake of this argument I'm talking taxes). People understood, back then, that greater wealth meant greater responsibility. Then everyone got greedy. Not only have the top 1% been stealing our nation's wealth since the late 70's but they're whining that they have to give any of it back to the country that allowed them to get it. There was another time in US history when the 'share of wealth' was this much out of wack. It was 1929. It was accompanied by bank failures, reduction of purchasing, and a stock market crash. 1929 or 2011?

We failed to learn from our past. As long as someone can get rich, they'll get rich. They don't care who they have to hurt or take advantage of. And they sure as sh*t don't care about the health and welfare of the nation.

Oh. and the tax rate on top earners leading into the great depression was 25%. We knew we had to change it and we more than doubled it. FDR won three elections by landslides even when consistently raising taxes to the point where top earners were paying 94%! You know why? Because we were all in it together. We recognized that and we were happy to do our part.

Now everyone is me me me and f*ck the other guy. Seems to be working REAL good for us.

[-] 2 points by dvs (9) 13 years ago

You say you'll change the constitution

Well, you know

We all want to change your head

You tell me it's the institution

Well, you know

You better free you mind instead

But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao

You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow

Don't you know it's gonna be all right

[-] 2 points by MadCat (160) 13 years ago

I work full time. Pay my taxes and support this movement wholeheartedly. The desire to see big money OUT of politics has nothing to do with avoiding responsibility. Once AGAIN, and I've honestly lost track, the response to protesting a busted system in a depressed economy is "Get a job." Talk about out of touch.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I actually agree with you. However, the issue at hand is that the majority of the people in the movement take it far beyond what you want. They want to live in a fantasy land.

[-] 1 points by oldwhiteguy (9) 13 years ago

This is true for any group of people. Often the loudest and those getting the most attention are on the fringe. Look to the center and listen for the sanity. It's there..........

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

This is exactly the problem. You're saying "the majority of these people do such and such"...some OWSers are saying "the majority of the 1 percent do such and such". These are all concepts in their heads based on their own perception and individual experience. People are assuming they know what the majority of people are like when in fact they do not know. This is the main problem. The media industrial complex creates these rigid ideologies because it makes good TV and good political theater. When we drop the isms and us and them mentality, we are discovering over and over again that Americans on both "sides" are actually moderates and mostly reasonable people who both desire solutions to the problems we face. We have to stop attacking each other. I hear it from both sides all the time. We need to realize that we are all on the same side because the decisions we make affect us all.

[-] 1 points by MadCat (160) 13 years ago

Some of them do yes. As this thing grows though they will be more and more in a minority.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

This remains to be seen. I hope you are right.

[-] 1 points by MadCat (160) 13 years ago

Indeed.

[-] 2 points by TLydon007 (1278) 13 years ago

THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE PAYROLL TAXES THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE PAYROLL TAXES THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE PAYROLL TAXES THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE PAYROLL TAXES THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE PAYROLL TAXES You people are fucking swine for spreading this misinformation. You only pay taxes 1 time a fucking year and you bitch about it all year long. I pay taxes 52 fucking times a year and don't bitch because I am a TRUE AMERICAN and you are an UNPATRIOTIC piece of trash.

[-] 2 points by geminijlw (176) from Mechanicsburg, PA 13 years ago

Why are you so angry at people that are just trying to make life better? This movement does not seem to be for one person but all people, that have not been represented by our government. Don't be angry, just observe and make your determinations in the future, when it is our history.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I am angry because the majority of the people at the protest are doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons. The majority of them are uneducated and have no clue how the real world works.

That is why I am angry.

[-] 2 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

"the top one percent pay almost HALF the income taxes in the country, the bottom 50 percent pay almost nothing".............Prove This....show your work please!

[-] 1 points by HueyFreeman (3) from New York, NY 13 years ago

Seriously. Links or it didn't happen.

[-] 1 points by ks6 (12) 13 years ago

Google it.

[-] 1 points by MrWombat (124) 13 years ago

You Google it and link us.

It's like me saying that "God is real I have seen him and he told me to tell you to go fuck yourselves", then a random atheist in the crowd tells me to prove it and then I go, "You're the one who loves science why don't YOU prove he exists?"

You see how that works?

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

for real, dont tell me something and then say to me, "google" it.....prove your statements or dont publicize them

[-] 2 points by UncleGene (11) 13 years ago

Oh the irony. The reason Russia became a dictatorship again is because of bunch of radical right-wing "consultants" from America convinced them that pure capitalism was the way to go. Apparently grandma didn't like being put out on the street, so she went for the strongman, Putin.

[-] 1 points by Hellomynameis (243) from Aptos, CA 13 years ago

"You idiots got yourselves into debt making stupid choices and taking out loans for useless arts degrees. Many of you probably lived off of your parents for 25 years and never worked a day in your pathetic lives. You are complaining about being broke, in debt, and not having healthcare. Yet you can afford to sip starbucks while you type stupid messages on your MacBook Pro's."

Trolls be trollin

[-] 1 points by Hellomynameis (243) from Aptos, CA 13 years ago

Love this argument... because it conveniently leaves out how much income the top 1% actually has. The argument is made to shock you with.... "OMG the top 1% pays for 40%+ of our taxes"... when in reality the top 1% owns MORE than 40%+ of the income and through simple math should be paying more taxes.

PS: The bottom 50% own 2.5% of the nations wealth.... I repeat... 2.5% of the nations wealth... if they were taxed at 50%... they'd still only pay 1.25% of all taxes collected..

[-] 1 points by ConcernedEconomist (67) 13 years ago

Terrific race, the Romans. Terrific!... http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/003561.html

[-] 1 points by Levi99 (15) 13 years ago

Probably broke, poor, backwater Republican fighting for the rich again. It amazes me how someone with nothing can consistently stand up for someone that can crush them with their wallets ?!?

[-] 1 points by amanoftheland (452) from Boston, MA 13 years ago

here is a few thoughts for all you people that think your one of the 99% or one of the 1%. Who are the electors in the electoral college AND why do we never hear about them in any new report, political or human interest? Also, What exactly are the requirements to become an elector of the electoral college? Lastly Can anyone name any of the electors of the electoral college? Answer these questions and you may become enlightened....

[-] 1 points by oldwhiteguy (9) 13 years ago

I have paid my taxes every year for the past 45+ years. I have owned my own business for over 20 years and have another job. I am part of the 99%.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Good for you! You are one of the few that have a legitimate gripe.

[-] 1 points by anotherone773 (734) from Carlyle, IL 13 years ago

The sad part is that people who always use this 47% do not pay income tax are completely oblivious to this: http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_welfare/real_tax_rates_plummet.php

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Hmmm, a paper with no citations or sources. Sounds credible to me!

[-] 1 points by anotherone773 (734) from Carlyle, IL 13 years ago

Source which is at the top: By Robert McIntyre and T.D. Coo Nguyen First published by the Multinational Monitor, Vol 25, No. 11

Which that source uses this source: "Source: Robert McIntyre and T.D. Coo Nguyen, "Corporate Income Taxes in the Bush Years," Washington D.C.: Citizens for Tax Justice/Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, 2004."

Also this type of information is not hard to obtain on the internet. But they give it all in a condensed "brief" form which makes it easier for people to get a general idea which is why i use it. All this can be looked up independently if someone is interested in taking the time to do it( which i have done).

[-] 1 points by AndrewBWilliams (52) 13 years ago

You are wrong. I am a 48 year old attorney. I make good money and pay a lot of taxes. I have been employed my whole life and shower every day. However, I believe that to whom much is given, much is expected. I believe there are many middle aged guys like me who make a good living, but believe people have the right to a living wage, a decent education and decent healthcare.

There are many people like me who believe nobody has a right to be selfish and to think they are untouchable. Those people need to be put in their place and whether you call it income redistribution, accountability, or fairness I don't care. Taking care of people is the right thing to do. Nobody gets rich on their own. Nobody.

[-] 1 points by StalldOut (2) 13 years ago

How much did General Electric (GE) pay in taxes last year?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Nothing. Guess it pays to have one of your former top guys in Obamas cabinet as an adviser, huh?

[-] 1 points by joewealthyhaha (152) 13 years ago

way to go my russian imigrant friend. spot on

[-] 1 points by StalldOut (2) 13 years ago

How much did General Electric (GE) pay in taxes last year?

[-] 1 points by gemini21 (2) 13 years ago

silly boy, we do have jobs. we work for minimum wage in a form of indentured servitude. you are talking about income taxes only. there are property taxes, sales taxes, and heck, just the price of items where the taxes of the 1% get passed down... remember trickle down? that's how it works.

[-] 1 points by Flipp (58) 13 years ago

Very good points

[-] 1 points by htorres1107 (24) 13 years ago

1st: You're obviously a fucking troll. 2nd: Your half-true argument about taxes completely ignores the fact lower-income and middle class Americans pay out a larger proportion of their paychecks in payroll taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, user fees, child care and tolls than the 1%. Get a fucking clue dip shit! & 3rd: Fuck you right back ass hole...

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

My my you are fussy. Were you forced to take a shower?

Your argument is a sterling example of mental midgetry.

[-] 1 points by htorres1107 (24) 13 years ago

Why resort to ad homonym attacks? Why not try to refute my argument? Oh right...you can't because I've written facts.... Must suck to be you...

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

You called me a troll of the bad? That is not ad homenum? That is why I didn't argue your lack of facts.

Mid/Low class families get tons of deductions where they essentially pay nothing in income taxes on the Federal and sometimes state level. Property taxes are another thing. No one forces you to buy property. If you do, you better be able to pay for it, becuase if not, you have no business owning it.

That being said, I have MANY TIMES said that the entire tax system needs to be overhauled. The whole point of the thread I started is to bring to like that 90% of the people protesting on wall street DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE PROTESTING.

[-] 1 points by htorres1107 (24) 13 years ago

As for your tax claims. Please read this rather lengthy take down of your roundly debunked argument; which btw serves only maintain the tax breaks for the wealthiest 1%; of which I suspect you are NOT a part......stop serving your masters like a good little dog dude...:

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/jmadison/28292/the-47-myth-just-who-pays-income-tax-anyway

And I reject the argument that the people protesting have no idea what they are protesting. They/we know EXACTLY what and who they are protesting. Maybe you just haven't been listening. Or, my vote, you've allowed your perceptions to be clouded by the corporate/mainstream media....

WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!

[-] 1 points by ThisWeWillDefend (30) 13 years ago

As a retired military vet, I have been to Socialist Countries where everyone is "supposed to have the same standard of living". You know what I find? The elite class in govermant, and the commoners. There is no middle class. Socialism works well, until you run out of the other guys money.

[-] 1 points by genanmer (822) 13 years ago

Ron Paul: The Best Income Tax Rate is 0%: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m1J32wABiI

Zeitgeist - Unconstitutional Federal Income Tax http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBTtS9lfW_M

[-] 1 points by wessel (6) 13 years ago

A single person that works 60hrs a week that makes $12 an hour has a higher rate than the top 1%. You're point is only skin deep. If you stop listening to media, you'd know that they get tons of tax brakes, credits, write-offs and can have lawyers find loopholes that reduce it even more through business expenses and itemization. Escaped Russia? Gorbachev had Russia on the right track and If you where really their, you'd know toward the end,Gromyko, really got the ide rolling on how to turn Russia into more of a democratic state.

[-] 1 points by wessel (6) 13 years ago

A single person that works 60hrs a week that makes $12 an hour has a higher rate than the top 1%. You're point is only skin deep. If you stop listening to media, you'd know that they get tons of tax brakes, credits, write-offs and can have lawyers find loopholes that reduce it even more through business expenses and itemization. Escaped Russia? Gorbachev had Russia on the right track and If you where really their, you'd know toward the end,Gromyko, really got the ide rolling on how to turn Russia into more of a democratic state.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Yes, and Russia is so well of now.

[-] 1 points by Meeky (186) from Los Angeles, CA 13 years ago

Responsibility.

It is our responsibility to clean up the mess caused by the greed of a few.

[-] 1 points by RecklessRapscallion (6) 13 years ago

Uhhh no.

[-] 1 points by Elysium22 (95) 13 years ago

This is important we need to adress this becouse they need to pay taxes too.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I think you should go back to school and learn to write. Take a composition class.

[-] 1 points by seaglass (671) from Brigantine, NJ 13 years ago

"Yet you are protesting the top 1%? You are protesting the people that create the jobs, " What jobs? What do you think this is all about? You obviously live in la la land because America is experiencing a 2nd Great depression with no end in sight.

[-] 1 points by jacobonline (2) 13 years ago

Fuck you. When you stereotype people it shows your extreme ignorance. My mom who lost her job and having a hard time paying her mortgage is not a "Dirty Hippie". She is a real person screwed over after putting in 35 years hard work. Keep listening to Rush and Fox about he 47%. That is Federal income Tax. We pay more taxes than that fucktard. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too. Only morons like you will let them trickle down you with their bought and paid politicians. You are a sheep.. say baahhhh.

[-] 1 points by jacobonline (2) 13 years ago

Fuck you. When you stereotype people it shows your extreme ignorance. My mom who lost her job and having a hard time paying her mortgage is not a "Dirty Hippie". She is a real person screwed over after putting in 35 years hard work. Keep listening to Rush and Fox about he 47%. That is Federal income Tax. We pay more taxes than that fucktard. There are also payroll taxes and investment taxes, among others. And, of course, people pay state and local taxes, too. Only morons like you will let them trickle down you with their bought and paid politicians. You are a sheep.. say baahhhh.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

This whole thread was about Federal Income Tax.. Can you grasp that.

Also, is your mom looking for work or is she out partying it up on Wall Street? If you read what I have written, I simply stated the overwhelming majority (90%) of the OWS idiots do not know what nor why they are protesting.

Reading comprehension... learn it. Also, I don't listen to Rush or watch Fox. Love your Stereotype... shows your extreme ignorance.

[-] 1 points by George16 (6) 13 years ago

The reason why the top 1% pay over half the income tax in this country is, they are the only ones who are making any money. Most Americans have no expendible income. I would love to be able to pay more in taxes. I want good schools for our children. I want to take care or our elderly. I want the best streets and roads, I want a strong national defense. The problem is, I can't afford it and those who can obviously don't want anything except for more money in their bank account.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 13 years ago

I pay income taxes! I just get most of it back in my tax return...

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Hence you pay close to nothing.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 13 years ago

Pretty much. I'm in my 20's though, and haven't had a chance to get a career yet. Just a long string of "jobs".

[-] 1 points by rmmo (262) 13 years ago

Yes, we are the 50% that now control less than 2% of all of the nation's wealth. The 1% now control 42% of all of the nation's wealth and the top 10% control 70%.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-charts-about-wealth-and-inequality-in-america-2010-4#the-gap-between-the-top-1-and-everyone-else-hasnt-been-this-bad-since-the-roaring-twenties-1

[-] 1 points by Dave (14) 13 years ago

MONEY is fake and used to enslave the people in debt. Slavery never ended, it was transfered over to a money system to keep the people in check with a few more perks. WAKE UP SHEEP THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IS FAKE

[-] 1 points by Dave (14) 13 years ago

MONEY is fake and used to enslave the people in debt. Slavery never ended, it was transfered over to a money system to keep the people in check with a few more perks. WAKE UP SHEEP THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IS FAKE

[-] 1 points by Febs (824) from Plymouth Meeting, PA 13 years ago

Pretty sure I pay income tax from looking at my taxes.

[-] 1 points by bellafromgermany (4) from Köln, Nordrhein-Westfalen 13 years ago

Fuck you. Shave, take a shower, and go to a few job interviews......... these are the same old words people told to the 1968-er Movement. ..... Go and wash you! As if this is the problem!!!! YOU have been able to go away from Russia BECAUSE the 1968-er Movement went to the street. FOR YOU! All those "unwashed peple" made it possible that you can go out of Russia. So .... rethink your words about shaving, washing and showering.

[-] 1 points by peoplearebusy (1) from Erie, PA 13 years ago

I thought this was about how the 1% run our country by bribing our congress and business's collaborating with eachother to scam us out of every penny/freedom and our government sitting back and letting it happen. Since when did all of the people who care about this country become college students on a monday?...o wait thanks to Obama they have healthcare now under their parents...Your dumb.

[-] 1 points by livengood (11) from St Petersburg, FL 13 years ago

why so hateful? where is your source of your statements. Facts please, not rhetoric. American government is supposed to be by the people, for the people.

[-] 1 points by livengood (11) from St Petersburg, FL 13 years ago

why so hateful? where is your source of your statements. Facts please, not rhetoric. American government is supposed to be by the people, for the people.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I've posted all facts and sources.

[-] 1 points by geminijlw (176) from Mechanicsburg, PA 13 years ago

Example: Olsen twins stocked stores with their backpacks last week, $39,000 price tag, flew off the shelves. Who bought them? Anyone out there that bought one? I really would like to know who? Did any of that money go towards charities, or a percentage go towards children? I really don't know, but it appalled me that so many people could buy all those backpacks at that price. And what would be the purpose, when you can get a backpack for less thant ten dollars anywhere else.

[-] 1 points by divine0enigma (14) 13 years ago

I lol'd

[-] 1 points by HueyFreeman (3) from New York, NY 13 years ago

I work, have health coverage, the only degree I have is a GED, I'm not in any debt, and haven't owned an Apple product yet.

I bet you think I stink of patchouli and carry a Little Red Book too.

Did you let Roger Ailes sell you a bridge as well?

Inform yourself and be empowered. All open minds are welcome.

[-] 1 points by ckreton15 (27) 13 years ago

says the man with no calluses

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

My hands are pretty heavily calloused.

[-] 1 points by rb12 (5) 13 years ago

"The top 1% pay blah blah -- the top 10% pay blah blah..."

BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD TO! Seriously, how thick are you?

"You didn't choose a low-risk, high-profit specialization. Your fault. Idiot."

As if everyone has the knack for engineering, the sciences, or mathematics. And if they don't, well, that's their fault. They deserve to suffer. Seriously. HOW. THICK. ARE. YOU.

[-] 1 points by Isiah (20) 13 years ago

Trust me, I pay my fair share of taxes...probably a lot more than you and I fully support this movement. I happen to believe my taxes should go toward social programs and education not killing people in foreign countries and subcontracting wars to private contractors. I also believe that repealing the Glass-Steagall Act made clearly illegal banking activities legal and I disagree that my tax dollars should be siphoned toward such self-serving entities and the people that run them.

[-] 1 points by Boletus (125) 13 years ago

Wow, your logic is so infallible, you have irrefutably proven yourself an asshole. Good job!

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 13 years ago

F U Go back to Russia

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Great argument.

[-] 1 points by PJ63 (48) from St Paul, MN 13 years ago

I pay federal income taxes, I can honestly say that I pay a lot more taxes than service &, resources I have or will use. You are misguided by those who tell you what to think,. You are reading headlines and not reading the heart of the articles. You are NOT researching another point of view. Am I right? I bet I am. Be honest with yourself.

[-] 1 points by RichardGates (1529) 13 years ago

oh man i love this point of view. first off, you do not create "jobs" if you do, send it to me in the mail! nor do you in essence create jobs. demand creates the need for a product, then someone will produce said product for a fee. if you get a lot of orders you will need to "give" someone a job in order for them to "help" you produce. the person you give a job to does not owe you anything and is entitled to ask what they think is fair for the help. right now i think what you are hearing is that the working class wants to participate in the economy and pay taxes just like everyone else so the asking price has gone up. you guys like to cry that the working class doesn't pay taxes, well pay up and they will. oh, but thats not a comfy little right wing corporate fairy tale is it.

[-] 1 points by ConcernedEconomist (67) 13 years ago

Identify the incentives and follow the money...

[-] 1 points by ConcernedEconomist (67) 13 years ago

This is not about class warfare, nor is it anti-capitalism. This is about Big Business in bed with elected government officials. The politicians don't bring about the change we elect them to because it's the corporations who finance their out of touch lifestyles in return for setting up restrictive economic policies that stack the deck against small businesses.

[-] 1 points by MrWombat (124) 13 years ago

I'm not the bottom 47% but my parents are the lower middle class.

My parents pay taxes and are the real group that pays the most taxes while corps like Google uses Double Dutch and Double Irish to pay $0 in taxes. My mom works insane hours just to keep this family afloat while jobs get outsourced to slave labor countries that have tariffs on -US-. My mom would totally disagree with protesting too even as she must realize that she is next. First it was the homeless...then the low blue collars...and now it's the white collars too.

Also - I would take a shower and go to job interviews if all the employers I called didn't already tell me that all I can do is fill out an online application and wait until the economy gets better.

Also also - Liberal arts degrees? We have prostitutes and taxi drivers with Ivy League educations and I'm SURE they weren't spending exorbitant amounts of money on Liberal Arts degrees. The LA degrees are the trust funders of this country whose futures are already set.

There is no demand for an investment banker. No demand for lawyers. No demand for factory workers. No demand for almost everything except the industries that can't be outsourced and the industries that will ALWAYS have demand, such as the medical and garbage collecting industry. Which is currently being flooded with fresh graduates (medical) and experienced people (medical and garbage collecting) alike.

Oversupply with little to no demand = We're all fucked. Lower wages, almost nonexistent rights, long hours, fire-at-will, etc.

EDIT - I use a $100-200 Emachines made in China that always shuts off everytime you move it (due to a shitty power supply) and the only time I went to Starbucks this year was when I had to stay out of the rain. Their coffee is too dang expensive I agree. And I was not one who drank Starbucks often, except maybe at college. CITY COLLEGE.

I do agree with you on some points though. Conspicuous consumption is like a STD for the poor. It's crazy...

[-] 1 points by SeparationOfCorpandState (81) from Muskegon, MI 13 years ago

I invest in the 1%, but support the 99%.
Can we work to make this Fair for all with out socialism. I understand this point of view, but fair is fair and this calamity was far from fair and equitable. Especially when the working class will end up paying for this lapse in regulations, oversight, and wanting something for nothing.

[-] 1 points by LaoTzu (169) 13 years ago

"Why are the people starving?--

Because their grain is being eaten up by taxes

That's why they're starving

Why are the people rebellious?--

Because those above them meddle in their lives

That's why they're rebellious

Why do the people regard death so lightly?--

Because they are so involved with their own living

That's why they regard death so lightly

In the end,

The treasure of life is missed by those who hold on

and gained by those who let go" - Lao Tzu
[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

This is a silly post. Your conclusions are somewhat Taoist but your premises are just silly. The people are not starving. The people are rebellious because those above them behave as though they don't exist. And people do not regard death so lightly...I'm not sure where you got that one from...Although I can't argue with that last one...that one is solid.

[-] 1 points by tinsoldier (1) 13 years ago

I am an adult or at least 52 yrs old. House paid for. Taxes paid. One kid in HS off to college in a year. I keep hearing ""Tin Soldiers and Nixon coming"" what do you suppose this could mean. Signed, a worried, but definite 99% er.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I don't understand your question.

[-] 1 points by gekko (75) 13 years ago

hahahahahahhha perfect!!!

[-] 1 points by kilroy (58) from Orlando, FL 13 years ago

How incredibly arrogant. Wall Street and the Banks have exploited there position and wealth to steal ungodly amounts of money from the American people. All working Americans have taxes taken from their pay. Pay sales taxes and taxes on gas, cigarettes etc. This is not just about unemployment its about fundamental fairness that would ever allow 1% to have such control in a Republic Democracy

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Corporations pay: Payroll taxes, environmental taxes, excise taxes, communications taxes, fuel taxes, not to mention dozens of other types of taxes.

[-] 1 points by gijimmbo (1) 13 years ago

thank you... that is probably the funniest thing i have read in a long time. hahahah. what a joke! but seriously... fuck you. I fucking hate you. you are a total piece of shit. i hope you get cancer and can't afford to be treated. hahaha.. try working that shit off with a fucking minimum wage job you fucking piece of shit.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

You just proved a point for me. Thank you for being exactly who you are.

Have fun flipping burgers.

[-] 1 points by kilroy (58) from Orlando, FL 13 years ago

So they should. Where do they get their money if not from the consumers who buy their goods or services which actually own this economy.

The problem is a public company shouldn't just be beholden to the shareholders it should also be beholden to the STAKEHOLDERS the employees and the consumers.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Can't argue too much with that.

However, we need to revamp our whole tax system to be competitive and bring jobs back into the country. All I am saying.

[-] 1 points by kilroy (58) from Orlando, FL 13 years ago

You are right! Tax Credits for American Jobs! Bigger Tax Credits for hiring the unemployed! Government reimbursement for training. Let American Businesses Prosper if they actively help the American Economy.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Agreed!

[-] 1 points by gibsone76m (298) from Washington, NJ 13 years ago

I was going to comment in here but realized the original post by @DeletetheOG pretty much covers it

[-] 1 points by geminijlw (176) from Mechanicsburg, PA 13 years ago

I think the people there, are like me, I am occupying Harrisburg, Pa, we are sick and tired of telling our government what we want, and being ignored. We are not allowed to participate in our own government, that is what is wrong. Government works for special interests, that have money to help them buy the next election. That is why we are angry. Don't believe what you hear, step in and talk to people all over the internet. This is global because a few rich brought down our economy all over the world. The 15th of October is a global demonstration. I have gotten tweets, and emails from other countries saying how proud they are of us. This is what we aim, to make changes, to have better lives.

[-] 1 points by geminijlw (176) from Mechanicsburg, PA 13 years ago

I have learned from posts like this in my area newspaper, that some people just like to start an argument, and rant and rave. Nothing will change by posts to this person, it will just make him/her worse. We know what this movement is made up of the 99% of Americans that are not represented by our government. We have the best government money can buy, and so do all the other countries.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Got a statistic regarding 99% of Americans supporting this movement?

[-] 1 points by wouldhavepreferred (26) from Portland, OR 13 years ago

I pay over $1,500 per month in taxes, you bigot.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Good for you, and thank you. You are probably one of the only ones that pays your taxes on this website.

[-] 1 points by wouldhavepreferred (26) from Portland, OR 13 years ago

This situation is so much bigger than one group paying taxes and another not paying taxes. This is about greed, manipulation, power and influence. This is about one group of people leveraging the system at the expense and livelihoods of another. I played by the rules, I went to college, got a job, paid my taxes and built a business. AND I STILL LOST.

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

How do you know that most people don't pay taxes here? Who told you that?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

How can you pay taxes if you don't work?

[-] 1 points by AN0NYM0US (640) 13 years ago

Hi. Just so you know, many companies are now outsourceing their jobs. So we give them money (in the form of tax cuts) and they take our jobs. Also, most of the CEO's ACTUAL income isn't taxed. Only their paychecks get taxed, not the general profits of the company which they take freely. And they are buying things that other rich people are selling, like yachts. They aren't going down to the local grocer to buy an apple from us.

Yes, people need to be responsible, but that doesn't mean that these corporations AREN'T ripping us off. Because they very very much are.

By the way, if there is a 15% tax on the middle class: and a 30% tax on the rich.

And let us say that the rich are really 1% of our country and the rest of us are 99%

99% of people pay 15% of their income 1% of people pay 30% of their income

According to Popclock there are currently 312,396,505 Americans right now. 99% = 309,272,540 1% = 3,123,965

A rough estimate of mean Household income is $57,155 a year We will give the 1% a mean of $1,000,000 a year to be generous to you hypothesis.

Average tax payer's taxes: 57,155 x 15% = $ 8,573.25 a year Average rich tax payer: $1,000,000 x 30% = $300,000 a year

90% of american's contribution to taxes = 8573.25 X 309,272,540 = $2,651,471,000,000 10% of american's contribution to taxes = 300,000 x 3,123,965 = $ 937,189,500,000

Total tax income is: $3,588,660,000,000 The 1% pay, ( 937189500000 / 3588660000000) pay 26.11% of the countries taxes. And yet, what is $700,000 a year instead of $1,000,000 a year as opposed to $48,582 instead of $57,155 which do you think is more devistating to the tax payer?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

A very well thought out argument. Thank you.

However, a few of your figures are wrong. Specifically the tax brackets, which makes all the difference in your math. I have to leave for work right now. But please reply back to this post so I can come back to this later.

Again, thank you for using your brain unlike most of the people posting. You are the type of person I would enjoy having a conversation and a coffee with.

[-] 1 points by AN0NYM0US (640) 13 years ago

I'm busy, lol I didn't actually read all the tax bilaws lol. I just rounded to an average that I have heard. An average between what the left say and what the right say.

Yes I acknowledge the rich pay more than an individual. But they key difference is that they can afford it.

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

Someone told you how to think. You shouldn't have listened.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

LOL. Yes, as opposed to the hive minded idiocy of the OWS Movement?

Pot, meet kettle.

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

I'm no pot. Your argument was filled with name calling, strawmen, and red herrings. All tools of shallow arguments. You even did it in your response. Furthermore, I see no evidence that you've educated yourself at all about your supposed opponents' arguments. You simply repeated what you've been told by your masters to defeat an imagined adversary. If you have lived in the USSR as you claimed, I would think you would know propaganda when you saw it.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Irony.

You are telling me about propaganda? The vast majority of your followers were hypnotized by "yes we can" and "change".

Tell me, who are my masters?

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

I don't have anything to say about hope and change. It was definitely simplistic.

Your master is whoever told you to come here.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Why would someone have to tell me to come here?

Does freewill not exist?

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

Explain how you arrived here. What made you so angry that you had to unleash your attack full of hostility and anger?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I arrived here after seeing the protests on the News and hearing about the website. I am angry because 90% of the people protesting do not know what they are protesting or why. They are clueless kids with massive entitlement issues that do not understand how the world works.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 13 years ago

my labor has provided money for many that pay taxes

[-] 1 points by Opal (57) 13 years ago

If that's really the most intelligent thing you can say, you have my pity.

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 13 years ago

Why call people idiots? Can you not articulate your opinion without attacking people?

Oh wow, I just read the last line of your post,. nasty bit of work you are, so much hatred coming from such a small mind. You obviously live in a dream world where "spending more" makes you a better person,. sad world view you have.

Oh,. while I am in the shower,. why don't you go back to Russia?

[-] 1 points by webmouth (46) 13 years ago

Your so proud of ignorantly paying your taxes eh.. have you ever collected taxes as a business owner and had to match and submit. Do you even know why the IRS was first formed, then rescinded and the re-established with the Federal Reserve Corporation. Do you even know why just about all of your taxes are barely enough to cover the interest on a debt that i argue is not even real. You blindly pay your taxes and enslave the future generations by sitting there and accusing your neighbor.. Yet you have nothing to say about the evil men who own the FED and steal your wealth. You are asleep, this is your gentle wake up nudge, You only get a couple and then we leave you sleeping.

[-] 1 points by rmmo (262) 13 years ago

The bottom 50% control 2% of all of the nation's wealth. We have had a massive wealth redistribution the last 30 years. The top 10% now controls 70% of all of the nation's wealth. So, you want to people that have 2% of the nation's wealth to pay more taxes and not the people who control 70%? We haven't seen numbers like this since the great depression when all of the wealth had been redistributed into the hands of the few.

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

There is so much vitriol in this comment. I am astounded by the sheer force of arrogance in your words. You sited two facts. The bottom 50% pay almost NOTHING because they HAVE almost NOTHING. This is precisely what we are protesting. For the top 1% to pay 50 % of the taxes is acceptable. What is not acceptable is for children in the USA to live in squalor worse than that of third world countries. Perhaps you should go back to Russia. You don't seem to fully grasp the idea of the free and civil sharing of ideas which Democracy is based on. Your observations are so astute and accurate. It is obvious that all of the thousands of people who are marching have useless arts degrees and live off their parents. You must also be talking about the 3,000,000 unemployed Americans who cannot find work as well. Clearly they must have made foolish choices in getting other "useless" degrees from universities. Although, it would seem at this point, most university degrees are useless. The real issue here is that those who plunged the world into financial insolvency (notice how I said "the world"...I'm sure you will since you are so internationally minded) are still running the show and it's still business as usual. Your scope is narrow and your language is vulgar. You are a hateful and ignorant individual and I truly wish you would develop some compassion and ability to understand nuance.

[-] 1 points by LibertyFirst (325) 13 years ago

I don't want to get this off track, but I have spent a great deal of time in several third world countries, and I have not seen poverty in America that was even close to, much less worse than, that of the third world.

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

Thank you for correcting. It is important to point out inconsistencies in perception. Do we agree, however, that the poverty situation in America is unacceptable?

[-] 1 points by LibertyFirst (325) 13 years ago

I'll agree that poverty is a bad thing, of course. It's a difficult topic, though, when we talk about how what is acceptable, because we define poverty relativistically. If we ask the question, "What is 'poor'", the difficulties begin to emerge. Is it not having enough to eat or a roof over one's head? If so, we have pretty much eliminated poverty in America via our food stamp and housing programs. Is it not having clean water, education, access to medical care? We have provided these as well. I agree there is room for debate about quality of education and medical care, but that brings us back to our original question--what is poor. Is it having a certain amount or quality of these things?
So is the poverty situation in America unacceptable? Well, personally I think it would be great if everyone had a higher standard of living. Of course, if that happened, we would still have 'poverty', which would be defined as those with the least, even if the least included a McMansion, a car, etc.
I hope you can understand that I am not unsympathetic to the poor. Perhaps it is because I have seen poverty in the sense of people literally starving, with no access to clean water much less medical care and education, that gives me a different perspective on the issue.

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

Well said. Do you think that the playing field should be leveled though? IE, better public school funding etc?

[-] 1 points by LibertyFirst (325) 13 years ago

I agree the playing field should be leveled, in the sense that there is equal opportunity. Better schools would be great, but I don't think more funding is the answer. We spend much more per student than other countries who have much better results. So again, we have a complex issue wherein I think we agree on the big picture. Determining the best way to achieve that vision is the tricky part :-)

[-] 1 points by MrWombat (124) 13 years ago

We're getting there though.

After all, we need to compete with China and South America.

[-] 1 points by GammaPoint (400) from Oakland, CA 13 years ago

I feel sorry for you.

[-] 1 points by skb (8) from Albuquerque, NM 13 years ago

Many of the people that do not pay income taxes have been driven below the income level considered taxable by job loss, underemployment and health care costs that have gone through the ceiling. Who is responsible for the suffering of those people? Corporations outsourcing work to other countries or not providing a living wage, banks failing to provide credit after the American people saved them from insolvency with our tax dollars after they wrecked the housing markets, and health care companies making massive profits off the suffering of the sick and injured. Much like others among the 99%, I work hard, have little debt and still struggle to survive. I support Americans supporting each other. Power to the people!

[-] 1 points by Anomnomoose (44) 13 years ago

I love you DeleteTheOG.

[-] 2 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

And I love you, guy!

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Perfect example of who the majority of the people in this "movement" are.

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

Ah, the people who were convinced by corporations and government to take out excessive loans that didn't match what they received. Most are young people who made a mistake. Why do they deserve that?

Meanwhile the bankers who crashed our economy are bailed out with billions of dollars and pay themselves rewards. Do they deserve that?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

No one forced anyone to take loans.

Also, the money from the bailouts were loans, all of which are being paid back slowly. That being said, if we didn't have the bailouts, do you have ANY idea what would have happened? Bank Runs, Rampant Inflation (worse than now), so on so forth.

[-] 1 points by pissedoffconstructionworker (602) 13 years ago

The frustration and angst of these trolls is music to my ears. I'm such a sadist.

[-] 1 points by Selfmade (12) 13 years ago

Well put. These lazy kids don't know what it takes to be successful...its not the economy stupid. I grew up dirt poor no food homeless etc. I worked every dirt low paying job, often holding 3 jobs at a time dish washer, swampy, farm laborer, etc. worked on average 16 hours a day 7 days a week. paid my way through 2 colleges built my first business at the age of 21 and held jobs on the side too. Government regulation and taxes stalled my financial success by decades but I now make in 1 day what most will not make in a year and you want hand outs and think I should pay more in taxes....I paid already... roll up your own sleeves and be a man.

[-] 1 points by dimeetrees (1) 13 years ago

Thank god people like you are here to knock some sense into these lazy bastards.

[-] 1 points by karai2 (154) 13 years ago

All the hardship you endure made you such a wonderful person. Thank god there are people like you.

[-] 0 points by OccupyingAustin (33) 13 years ago

"I have it good so no one else has the right to say they don't have it good."

You're probably a straight white cisgendered Christian male too, and probably have no clue why that's significant.

[-] 1 points by Selfmade (12) 13 years ago

Occupyingaustin, That's a BS excuse, and your wrong.

[-] 1 points by OccupyingAustin (33) 13 years ago

I'm not throwing out excuses for anything. You're behaving like a privileged solipcist despite your roots.

[-] 1 points by Selfmade (12) 13 years ago

I don't mean to sound solipsistic, just that this country IS still the land of opportunity and that everyone can make a difference in their lives. I have a number of friends who made millions that can't read or write English....so please for yourselves take a reality check in your lives. My concern is that their are a lot of blogs here with socialistic undertones and I believe that is the real threat. I am concerned that a wrong biased perception reinforced by a peers biased perception will become a cancerous truth in their minds.That will cause more harm than they realize.

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

There's opportunity but that doesn't mean that conditions are acceptable. We are scolded when we demand things that we haven't "earned"...like access to health care if we are injured or sick. These are fundamental human rights. I mean, just the fact that you said "be a man" shows that you are not thinking about others. Everyone is dealt a different hand. You may say you had the worst and made it the best. But everyone is different. Not everyone is as resourceful as you are. It's not enough to say "be a man"...become like I am. I would love to possess some of your business savvy, but I do not...just as some would love to possess my musical talent or verbal communication skills(though admittedly not that many)...but do not and feel as though they cannot. There is a saying, don't you think that if the poor knew how to not be poor they would have done it yesterday? Why do we direct disdain and anger at the poor? The problem is not that people are lazy, it is that they are imperfect, afflicted, confused, uneducated, beautiful people who are in need of help and compassion, not disdain. If someone needs help, we should help them! We're in this together! We don't need a stern father for a government which advocates war and policies which reward the rich for being rich and punishes the poor for being poor. Not everyone is going to make it like you did. In fact, you are clearly the exception! I was a teacher for years and I can tell you...everyone has their own struggles. For some people, they suffer social and mental disorders and daily living is a struggle. For some people, they suffer physical and mental disabilities. Just because you don't see their struggles doesn't mean they are not working and struggling all the same. You clearly are incredibly endurant, strong, resourceful and intelligent and a great example of what is possible when you put your mind to it. This country needs influential people like you who are natural leaders to lend their compassion to the problem so that we may fix it. If you could have it your way, would you want your children to have to go through what you did? How about everyone else? Thanks for your comments and for listening.

[-] 1 points by Selfmade (12) 13 years ago

Jmcdarcy, Thank you, for your response and please understand my comment on being a man was specifically targeted. Your comment on health care being a fundamental right caught my eye. I thought you may find this article of some interest. http://afcm.org/hcinar.html health care is not a right. I would be interested on your take of this article. Domestically and abroad the world is plagued with many problems, your empathy is admired hopefully a solution on what appears to be an impossible task will come to fruition.

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

Thank you for the article. This is a very complicated topic. Peikoff makes some valuable points. The healthcare system in this country is confusing and extremely problematic. I think he makes very good points of constructive criticism and it seems that the system MUST be reformed SIGNIFICANTLY. However, I disagree with the philosophical premises.

1)Quote: "What is morality in this context? The American concept of it is officially stated in the Declaration of Independence. It upholds man's unalienable, individual rights...Now our only rights, the American viewpoint continues, are the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness."

Firstly, the document being mentioned is the declaration of independence(DOI). The DOI is NOT the constitution. The language in the DOI is not the language used by the Federal Supreme Court to interpret the constitutionality of laws in the United States. In fact, the DOI has no laws in it at all. It has principles and opinions. No doubt, Jefferson, its author held views which were similarly held by other founding fathers...but that is about all you can say about it. It is an extremely narrow viewpoint to say that "the American viewpoint" says that "our only rights" "are the rights to life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness." There is an entire section of the constitution dedicated to enumerating the rights of the American public. In fact, it is even called "The Bill of Rights". Where did Peikoff learn his history? He must have forgotten about the right to free speech, the right to bear arms, the right to due process, the right to hold jobs without being discriminated against on the conditions of sex, race or religious beliefs. I find this to be very troubling.

2) The conservative position often holds fast to the alleged fact that our founding fathers intended something or other with regards to morality. I contend that it is not actually that important what they thought about morality. Let us remember that in 1776, slavery was legal, and women and african-americans couldn't own property or vote. What is important is that the founding fathers were prudent enough to create a system which is ABLE TO BE CHANGED. The constitution sets up a government which is strong by virtue of its ability to CHANGE WITH THE TIMES. That is why we have amending procedures and checks and balances with the three branches of government. If they thought that highly of their opinions, they would have not allowed for the document to be revised...apparently they themselves were not entirely sure what it means to "be American".

3)I don't think it's right to say that socialized medicine is a total failure. I currently live in Taiwan. The system here runs very well. You pay a flat rate of something like 10 dollars US a month and you ONLY pay co-pays for doctors, specialists and prescriptions. This system works very well. Clinics and hospitals are quick and efficient. I am aware of problems in Canada, however which would seem to argue the opposite.

4) Socialized medicine does not mean socialism. Let us remember that public libraries, public trash cans, public transportation, public water, public universities, police, fire and military are all socialized institutions paid for by the government. Let us examine the nature of a socialized program: One which is necessary for the well being, safety and health of the public. It is not such a stretch to say that healthcare should be in the realm of public care. Can you imagine if you had to take your own trash down to the landfill every week? That's the point I guess...no one can pay the completely outrageous bills that doctors charge or hospitals charge. It's like 700 dollars for some stitches! That's like a whole month's rent! How can we expect people to be able to support themselves when if they injure themselves they're screwed? I don't know why it's so damn expensive, all I'm saying is we need to reform the system.

5) I disagree with the comparison between healthcare and a haircut. For present purposes, I will call this the "let them eat cake" argument. This type of comparison trivializes what is otherwise a severe issue of life and death in this country. People are in SERIOUS trouble. Getting a haircut is not necessary. But receiving treatment for chronic and terminal illnesses, genetic and other disorders is. People are not lazy, they are not freeloaders who think they are "entitled" to get free stuff. They think that in the same way that they are entitled to basic human rights such as the right to clean air and water, sanitary living, free speech, right to bear arms, right to due process, right to be free form discrimination, right to vote, right to physical safety; in this same way, they are entitled to the right to be medically treated without having to pay preposterous sums of money. I don't see why that is such a stretch.

Conclusion: It would seem that in large countries like USA and Canada, socialized medicine does not work efficiently. In smaller countries like Taiwan and Denmark, it does work efficiently. The solution may be to reduce federal influence here and leave it up to the states, perhaps with a mandate that the states must do SOMETHING. Same with education perhaps. Let me also conclude by saying these debates are plagued with "isms". It is not about socialism or capitalism or any such nonsense. These are old outdated terms. No country today is ALL communist or ALL socialist. These terms are limiting and provide fodder for division among people. No one idea is to blame and no one idea can solve the problem. Let's get over semantics and start talking about solutions. Let loose from your rigid positions and if the other guy has a better idea, good for all of us!

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I don't have insurance. I broke my foot a few months ago. I went to the hospital and they took care of me. They didn't turn me away.

My family and I came to this country with $100 in our pockets. We found work within days and now we live very comfortably in Florida. This is the land of opportunity. Don't blame others because you are too lazy or scared to go for it.

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

Who paid for your hospital bills? Do you think they would let you in if you had cancer?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

I set up a payment plan and am paying my bills. They significantly lowered what I owed, just like they do with Insurance companies.

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

Out of curiosity, how much did they charge you?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

For 6 Xrays, Doctor and an Air Cast/support it was about $1200.

[-] 1 points by Thenycbmx (1) from New York, NY 13 years ago

The wealthy are NOT the job creators. In fact they are the ones outsourcing as much labor as they can, it means more money in their pockets, duh. Our economy is, supply and demand. The top 10% could never create enough demand, forget about the top1%. capitalism is a system that requires participation by all involved(demand). Yes the wealthy finance the ideas from the 99%, but that hasn't happened for the last 10 years. That's why we are here.

[-] 1 points by jmcdarcy (158) 13 years ago

Well said indeed!

[-] 0 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Yeah because the wealthy do not own any businesses or corporations that give jobs to millions of people. GENIOUS!

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

Yes, bow before them. They are your masters. Those are your masters by the way.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Wow. A great argument. Isn't this where you start saying "Hope and Change"?

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

^spelling error^

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

Go back to russia scum!

[-] -1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Yeah you fucking wish.

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

Why do you swear like that? What does it accomplish?

[-] 0 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

waaaaaaaaaaahhh I pay taxes waaaaaaaaaahhhhh! I'm better than you because I don't have the loophole in the tax code that legally allows me to not pay taxes and me r angry that you don't and I do! waaaaaaaaahhhhhhh! Fuck off you paid breitbart troll

[-] -1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Haha. You are exactly what is wrong with the OWS movement. So sad.

[-] 1 points by moediggity (646) from Houston, TX 13 years ago

Cry some more you shill!

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

The true mark of a person who is over their head.

[-] 1 points by LoTek (53) 13 years ago

A little less dissertation on points, and a little more data on absolute dollars please.

[-] -1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

The statistics are out there...

Tax Burden of Top 1% Now Exceeds That of Bottom 95%

by Scott A. Hodge

Newly released data from the IRS clearly debunks the conventional Beltway rhetoric that the "rich" are not paying their fair share of taxes.

Indeed, the IRS data shows that in 2007—the most recent data available—the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.4 percent of the total income taxes collected by the federal government. This is the highest percentage in modern history. By contrast, the top 1 percent paid 24.8 percent of the income tax burden in 1987, the year following the 1986 tax reform act.

[-] 1 points by kmanpdx (105) 13 years ago

Here's a link to that article, pretty easy to find. http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/24944.html - why didn't you just post it?

BTW - the fact that the top 1% pay that much, directly supports the fact that the distribution of wealth is out of whack. It layman terms, it means they are making a SHIT TON of money. BTW, I don't believe taxing the 'rich' more is the sole solution to our problems, though taxing them on their investment income like regular income makes sense. Luxury taxes sure as hell make sense too (if you can afford a million dollar yacht, you can afford higher taxes on it). As the world gets more populated, we are all going to have to make more sacrifices. Just like, if you have to share in a single bedroom apart apartment with 6 people, you have to make sacrifices.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

So do they, or do they not pay their fair share?

[-] 1 points by kmanpdx (105) 13 years ago

I don't understand your question?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Do the rich pay their fair share or do they not.

(This is a trick question, I already know the answer)

[-] 1 points by kmanpdx (105) 13 years ago

No. Warren Buffet paid 17.4% taxes in 2009. I paid over 30%. That doesn't include tax on goods (gas, sales tax, property tax, breathing tax etc..). I cannot accumulate enough wealth in the form of capital gains, therefore, I cannot realize the lower tax rates this type of income would bring me. Nor can I afford to pay attorneys and accountants enough to help me find loopholes to assist me with keeping more of my wealth. Does it line up with your answer?

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/15/news/economy/buffett_taxes/index.htm

[-] 1 points by trentondouglas (48) 13 years ago

What about income distribution?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

What about it?

You work, you get paid. You work as a cashier, you get cashier wages. You work as a doctor you get doctor wages. This isn't hard.

You cannot expect to work a low end job and make a living wage.

[-] 1 points by kmanpdx (105) 13 years ago

Those are simple examples. What about the middle manager in a fortune 500 company that is responsible for millions of dollars a month in revenue streams coming into a company. What salary should he/she make? Do you think that middle manager gets even close to a percentage the CEO makes? Um, NO. I am speaking from experience. Not even close. They make a good living, but not one proportional to their value in the company. The 1% do not distribute wealth fairly, period. Look at this: http://biz.yahoo.com/t/48/3927.html --> this guy, in 2 years, has either acquired or sold over $200,000,000 (that is 8 zeros) in stock. That does not include salary and bonus (and probably many many fringe benefits, like corporate jets etc..). There is no way a single person could contribute that much to a company. And no reason any 1 person or household needs that much money to live happily.

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

^copied and pasted, no doubt^

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

What gave it away? Maybe the fact that it was written by someone else? Quite the detective you are!

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

next time read what someone else says, and develop your own way to express it sir, copying and pasting is stealing from someone's brain. This statement didnt take any detective work by the way

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Stealing from someone's brain huh? Man, you are a well spoken individual. See, the reason I copy and pasted, is someone would inevitably ask for a source for what I told them. So I went ahead and skipped a few steps. You already know what my opinions are from reading my original post.

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

basing your argument on what someone else wrote is NOT your opinion.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

My Opinion is in my original post. Many of my opinions actually.

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

which stinks of stupidity, and self-righteousness....before you tell an entire population to go and "fuck off, and take a shower" be ready to be questioned why you are saying this, and think for yourself when debate arises.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Entire population? No. Just the small percentage of people that believe in the drivel OWS is spewing. Question me all you want, I will give straight answers.

Tell me, what in my original post stinks of stupidity?

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

You idiots got yourselves into debt making stupid choices and taking out loans for useless arts degrees. Many of you probably lived off of your parents for 25 years and never worked a day in your pathetic lives. You are complaining about being broke, in debt, and not having healthcare. Yet you can afford to sip starbucks while you type stupid messages on your MacBook Pro's...................there i copied and pasted, looks pretty stupid huh?

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Makes perfect sense. What is stupid? The vast majority of the people I have seen are self entitled hipsters that take shits on police cars. There are very few people in your movement that actually know what they are talking about in regards to the FED. The rest just want to have a good time and protest for stupid shit like Living Wages, Shutting Down Nuclear Power Plants and other nonsense.

For people who are broke and poor out in the streets, you guys sure do have a lot of fancy computers and cameras.

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

the fact that you generalize people into categories is stupid....maybe thats how things are handled in russia, but not here

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Categories exist for a reason, and generalizations are generally true... for the most part.

[-] 1 points by brokeandstarving (62) 13 years ago

im giving you the last word...............

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Tortoise.

[-] 1 points by LoTek (53) 13 years ago

Um...ok, but not what I asked. I asked for absolute dollars, verses the percentage points argument you were trying to make.

I'm still not seeing that data OG.

[-] 1 points by powertothepeople (1264) 13 years ago

The "top 1%" own 43% of the financial wealth in this country, so the portion of taxes they are paying is consistent with what they own.

you can't get blood out of a stone.

[-] 1 points by Shortsleevedmagician (17) from Hibbing, MN 13 years ago

You're not really from Russia, are you?

[-] 0 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Born and Raised and Escaped.

[-] 1 points by DRMartin789 (287) from Broomfield, CO 13 years ago

Troll alert!

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Common response from someone that cannot think up a cogent argument.

[-] 1 points by DRMartin789 (287) from Broomfield, CO 13 years ago

No, it's a common response to those who try to bully others by calling them names and saying f u! Bully!

And btw, I just happen to be the person who probably took your job away because I work harder than you'll ever dream of working and have been doing so since I was 16. So your stereotyping and bullying of the OWSers is complete nonsense. I don't have to come up with a cogent argument against bullying and stereotyping.

[-] 1 points by HueyFreeman (3) from New York, NY 13 years ago

And this sort of person will be the first one to cry terrorist and seek help from the government if one of us loses our cool and enlightens him upside his head.

I hope that none of would disrespect and discredit the Occupation by doing such a thing.... why give him a place to stand?

[-] 1 points by DRMartin789 (287) from Broomfield, CO 13 years ago

Excellent points! :)

[-] 1 points by Rob (881) 13 years ago

Why label him a troll? he is not trying to fool anyone about what he believes. He laid it all out there, but you just do not agree with it.

[-] 1 points by DRMartin789 (287) from Broomfield, CO 13 years ago

Because when he calls people "idiots" and uses the F word, that's trolling.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

Grow some thicker skin.

[-] 1 points by DRMartin789 (287) from Broomfield, CO 13 years ago

It's still trolling.

[-] 1 points by DeleteTheOG (60) from Middletown, NJ 13 years ago

That's just like... your opinion... man.

[-] 1 points by DRMartin789 (287) from Broomfield, CO 13 years ago

Really?! Wow! I thought it was fact! <dripping sarcasm> lol

[-] 0 points by mattthecapitalist (157) 13 years ago

Well said.

[-] -1 points by alwayzabull (228) 13 years ago

The Occupy crowd does need a sh*t, shave and shower.