Forum Post: What does this movement represent?
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 10:02 a.m. EST by gmoneygross
(205)
from Brooklyn, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Since these protests have started, I have yet to hear anything that resembles a rational thought. It has been nothing but incoherent jiberish from individuals who simply want to blame other people for their own problems. The protestors themselves don't even know what they are protesting. There is no point to any of this.
You should should be "occupying" the White House, not Wall Street.
And the difference between the White House and Wall Street is... not that significant. That's sort of the point.
Both Republican and Democrat parties are completely bought and corrupt. We should use this movement to form a new party. Call it People's Party, or Labor Party, ... This party should represent the people, NOT accept any donation from businesses and organizations. It should only take contributions from individuals, and with an annual limit for each person.
Then go for it. There's nothing stopping you from running for President. Maybe you didn't learn that in school. Stop protesting, and put your money where your mouth is. If every protestor pitched in their "share", and they truely do represent the "99%", then you should have no problem raising enough money to campaign for the position.
We're waiting.......
It takes far more then to just submit the application to run for president. Not to mention the application fee. We all know that and this is why the system has become corrupt. Its no longer like the old days as far as getting access to run for president. If that was the case the runners wouldn't need to have $1,000 plate fundraisers at Waldorf. Not only that but solicit them selves to actors and investors. You wouldn't have to sink millions into your own campaign. It all has become a game. A game with peoples lively hood at stake. No political party actually cares or else we wouldn't be in this mess. Yes a lot of it is our own fault as Americans. We should have done more and trialed more politicians for treason. Americans were not paying attention until they lost their homes and jobs. We did neglect our own system. But at the time I was still in high school when most of the disgusting turns of government happened. Now as an adult I am speaking for my rights. I am trying to make a change. There is no reason for any of this to happen if the government feared its people and understood that they work for us, not like now where we work for them. So yes a lot of Americans did make this mess by caring more about sports, clothes, cars, gadgets etc and as long as their needs were getting met, the government was doing fine. Now here we sit. Now here I sit having to deal with a mess I didn't create. So if you feel that your so right in this whole game, why don't you run, help clean this mess up. I'm sure you have wonderful ideas that would help our lovely America get back on its feet. I put this as a reply to every one who is wondering what one of those that support occupy wall street is wanting as a rational out come. Yes I want our government to do right, not trade with other countries corruptly, not play games with our taxes and put them to correct use. Education/health care should be a born right, not a financial right. mass transportation to be able to get to work, work shouldn't be our lives, our families and living should be more of the basis. Mandatory sick days allotted, mandatory vacation time. CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE! Revoke what NAFTA has created. Clean air and water regulations for corporations to the highest standards and you can't go to it to other countries cause they don't have the same code or else we will not let your product be sold here. Medical companies popping out meds and getting our doctors and medical facilities to support them for the money needs to go. Corrupt health care providers need to go. Agriculture needs to make its way back with out genetically enhanced seeds. I don't like eating corn that has been genetically processed to have the same components as "round up"in it. It shouldn't have to break my bank to buy organic food. The FDA needs to make sure our food and beverages are clean, healthy for daily consumption. We all know what great things Nitrates and Aspartame do for us, but wait that means we have to go to the doctors. We should be able to trial our leaders if they have done us and even other countries wrong. We work our whole life to help be apart of the system, it should work fine if none plays lending games with our system. We should be able to vote on wars and bills that our government is trying to pass. We should have a popular vote not an electoral vote. A true representation of the peoples will. Who are these few that tell the majority whats good for them? We see how well that has played out. These are some of the wants of me as a protester/promoter of occupy wall street.
If we really want to change our country, start with wall street ! I totally support this grassroots movement. How can I help? What can I do?
That's right, destroy the fabric of this society so that tomorrow, there are less jobs. Maybe if we continue at this rate, there will be no corporations, and your utlimate goal of communism will take hold.
No one's goal is communism and you must know that, like I said before, you are either ignorant or a liar.
You don't even know what communisim is, you ignorant piece of shit.
You're ignorant. You don't even know what "Wall Street" is. It's pathetic.
You can start by quitting your job and joining the protests, which will then open up your job for someone that appreciates the opportunity given to them.
Where have you "heard" these things, Fox News? Do you believe in anything beyond your own self-interest? What do you do for a living, how do you "earn" your money?
A single organization might have a goal which, if achieved, might mean that the organization had no more reason to exist. In the past a large-scale movement has usually been perceived as consisting of various organizations with related (but different) goals. Today, a large-scale movement consisting largely of individuals seeking a total overthrow of the power structure is not about to agree on a few goals which, if achieved, will mean they'll agree to roll over and disappear.
A century ago we were Wobblies, working-class, Socialists, Anarchists & muckrakers. Shot down by the 1%, we grew strong. In time, by allowing the graduated tax and social safety nets of Progressives & the New Deal, they convinced some of us we’d won. We grew weak, but had a bit more to spend as consumers, which also profited the 1%. Their economy grew. But now, unable to accept their victory, they undo reforms, hurting us & the economy. As 99%ers, we’ve learned: Reforms are fine, but don’t trust the 1% to say when we’ve won.
http://sites.google.com/site/reinventstuff/home/history2rs.pdf
You all are great! I feel the only way we can get back on safe financial footing again is to close the Enron Loophole for oil speculators and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, which prevented the current banking and insurance scams/loopholes. After all, it worked great until late 90's when Congress through it out. Since then, like prior to 1933, we are experiencing what out country went though then, total Wall Street greed. Cheers to all that are involved! Jim
That statement goes to show you haven't paid attention.Stop Look and Listen. Tune into OccupyTV if reading is difficult for you.
Corporations provide lobbying=bribery to political parties/officials
They provide 1/2 of the jobs in the USA.
The problem is not corporations-it's government corruption.
If you care so much about voting and rights and the Constitution, then you should swallow the fact that the people will exercise their right to assembly, say what they think (whether you like it or not) and change their Constitution and political institutions by voting and, I hope very much, in a nonviolent manner.
As long as the Americans continue seeking the American Dream, this movement will be another joke. http://onatcetin.tumblr.com/post/11175601317/the-dream
heres a good strong 101 primer.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
If you do not know by now maybe you should leave troll.
"You should should be "occupying" the White House, not Wall Street."
^This is the truth. Make Obama answer for his broken campaign promises, Wall St is not beholden to you.
Watch the movie "Inside Job" and you will see!
We created this problem by voting for people that used urban legends to get elected.
Anyone else notice that one month after SB 1070 passed in Arizona that the US job market suddenly stopped improving after the initial recovery that began when Pres. Obama took office?
If we gave those 10-20 million illegals the boot tomorrow ... there would be millions of empty residences across the country ... taxes would go unpaid ... foreclosures would go up … http://lenderama.com/2007/12/29/illegal-immigration-and-the-housing-market/ Consumer demand caused by SB 1070 inside Arizona collapsed many businesses.
Vendors say illegal immigration crackdown prompted Mesa Swap Mart's closing http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/immigration/article_f1f25e2c-80b1-11df-995d-001cc4c002e0.html The timing of the US recession and the Mexican economic boom corresponds with when illegal immigrants began leaving the US and going to Mexico.
Illegal immigrant population declines 1.7 million at the beginning of the recession; http://www.cis.org/IllegalImmigration-ShiftingTide Mexican President says countries economy getting better; http://www.chron.com/news/nation-world/article/Mexican-president-says-country-s-economy-getting-1734927.php Illegal immigrants are responsible for approximately $120 billion in consumer demand, which creates demand for approximately 7 million dwellings and about the same number of jobs for US citizens.
The Economic Impact of Legalization versus Deportation in Arizona; http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/03/pdf/rising_tide.pdf A financial crisis and major period of unemployment has followed every major piece of racist legislation in the United States, and these events extend back like tree rings that show rainfall.
Naturalization Act of 1870; http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/6061/Citizenship-and-Race.html Panic of 1873; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873 Geary Act of 1892; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geary_Act Panic of 1893; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893 Bumper crops through 1932 in Oklahoma and Texas; http://www.helium.com/items/791036-causes-of-the-dust-bowl/print Mexican Repatriation from 1929 to 1937; http://webs.rps205.com/curriculum/ssandvoc/MexicanDeportation.html Great Depression from 1929 to 1937; http://www.calisphere.universityofcalifornia.edu/themed_collections/topics4.html University of Michigan; http://www.umich.edu/~ac213/student_projects07/repatriados/resources/resources.html Bush Signs Bill for U.S.-Mexico Border; http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15424055/ns/us_news-security/t/bush-signs-bill-us-mexico-border-fence/#.Tl9GJ679U-M China Chooses Mexico as It Main Foreign Investment Destination; http://blog.finetik.com/2009/10/01/china-chooses-mexico-as-its-main-foreign-investment-destination/ Trade Winds from the East; http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=51044 Reverse Immigration Jeopardizes US Economy; http://thenewamerican.com/economy/markets-mainmenu-45/1933-reverse-immigration-jeopardizes-us-economy China chooses Mexico as its main foreign investment destination; http://blog.finetik.com/2009/10/01/china-chooses-mexico-as-its-main-foreign-investment-destination/ Learning Chinese in Mexico; http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/07/world/la-fg-mexico-china-20100607 In Mexico, an energized economy raises hopes; http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-02-10-Mexicorising_N.htm
that will do no good either. just another irrational thought. their is no power in washington just like new york. http://www.radiokazoo.net/OPV/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/end-the-federal-reserve-boardtomorrow/
Stop arguing about stupid shit and focus on ending the Federal Reserve Board. Nothing will change until this Ponzi scheme is illuminated and dismantled!
Viva la Resistance!
A Ponzi scheme start by the one and only Bill Clinton, the very same leader that you protesters brought into office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act
I was a mere child, don't blame me. I'm just fighting for what's right.
You're fighting for a group that brought us here to begin with. You're a hypocrit, and you don't even know it. Try educating yourself. You act like banks wanted this. Are you really that stupid? Liberal policy, which has a history of failing (see Social Security and Medicare) brought us to this point. I'm pretty sure that banks wish the economy was good, and they were making money right now.
Let me tell you what I am fighting for. I am fighting for a global economy that is based on all of the natural resources of the planet. I am fighting for a true democracy that is detached from profit-seeking institutions. I am fighting for the principals that America was truly founded upon; not the principals that Michelle Bachman, John Boehner, or Barack Obama understands. I lump all current politicians into one category: evil. Lacking morals. Lacking conscience.
I understand our problems to be so immense that if a true progressive took office he would not muffle them, nor elongate their existence. I do not believe that Barack Obama is fighting for the populous.
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
Viva la Resistance!
Anarchy!!!! Hahaha, idiot.
Reality!!!! Hahaha, fool.
Profit drives innovation. Sorry, your model doesn't work. Profit drives progress.
What profit drove the innovators of our history? It was intellectual minds. The majority of our scientists, mathematicians, inventors were ousted by their people of their time. It took education not money to become innovator. That's why the US lacks in innovators, our system to really learn, study, critically think has turned into passing tests to get federal/state money. So yes you are right profit does drive innovation. But is that right?
I'm sorry, you're wrong. Think about an invention, does someone invent something for money, or at the end of the day (when you REALLY think about it) does someone not invent something because they think it's useful? Tell me, oh wise one, how do you account for technical unemployment? Are we not at a point in time where machines could do all physical labor? If so, does that not take away MILLIONS of jobs? How do you account for these jobs? What do we do?
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
Invention takes thousands of man hours, and thousands of dollars. We do not invent things simply because they are "useful". You are kidding yourself.
How do you account for technical unemployment? You account for it with jobs that didn't otherwise exsist before that. There are jobs that don't even exsist today that will exsist tomorrow. We qualify for those jobs with continuing education.
You clearly have not worked in the technology industry.
So you believe that the technology industry could single-handedly sustain the global economy? What about the defense industry? Oil industry? These are all unsustainable elements of our economy, how do you replace these jobs? I'm not talking about long-term, I'm saying if you look at the facts, the military-industrial complex is what sustains our economy. Take the military-industrial complex out of the equation: what next. What would we do next month if we were not reliant on wars to sustain our economy?
Uhhh, huh huh. Now you're just making noise. You have zero point of reference.
Point of reference: the current economy is unsustainable. How would you stabilize it while factoring the military-industrial complex, and technical unemployment into the equation?
Let banks like Bank of America and Citi FAIL. Make way for new business models, new companies, new products. The economy evolves, as do products, jobs, and technology.
We also can't be affraid to let companies FAIL. Why are we bailing out car companies? To save jobs? I don't agree with that. I say, let the car companies fail and go out of business. They put a failing business model in place. I say, make way for new business and new products. That's how you create jobs. Unfortunately, there is turn over.
So you're saying we should sit through year's of depression because of governmental irresponsibility?
You don't know what a depressoin is yet. If Obama continues to stay in office, you will.
Exactly why I support a resource based economy.
Your logic still doesn't add up.
Let me break it down:
Current Economic System = Unsustainable
Resource Based Economy = Sustainable
Further, Current Economic System = Coming Depression
In a resource based economy there is no such thing as an economic depression.
In addition, someone still needs to control the resources, or the means to control the resources. Hence, competition. One person, or entity, cannot control everything. Your model does not compensate for competition.
I'm afraid we're thinking in two different paradigms. If you want to understand a resource based economy watch this video:
Project Earth: A Resource Based Economy Explained http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8
Otherwise, it's been a nice debate, sir. Agree to disagree.
It doesn't work. It's great, in theory, but it would never work. Just like communism, the theory doesn't work because it doesn't take into account human desire.
Cool. People used to think that the world couldn't live without monarchies, what do you have to say to them? To be fair, it's not your fault. Some people are wired to be more receptive to abstract, unimplemented ideas while other's cant seem to fathom change.
A resource based economy is simply an earlier form of what you see today. You are basically talking about the renaissance era, which makes absolutely no sense at all. A resource based economy seeks to achieve what you see today. You are saying that we need to throw everything out, and start the process over again. That doesn't make any sense at all.
You don't know what a resource based economy is. A resource based economy first evaluates all of the world's resources, and then uses these commodities as the basis for all economic activity. As a result, the world can't spend what it does not have. Tell me this exists already today.
The purpose of a resource based economy is to free mankind. In an age where technology could do EVERYTHING for us, why do we resist?
It still needs to be managed. Communism supports a resource based economy. Nazism was a resource based economy. It fails, because those in power, or those who want to be in power, become currupt. Changing the economy doesn't change people. It doesn't work. You can't create a utopia society.
Communism does share some values with a resource based economy, yes, but they are not the same. At all. The Nazi's were a fascist regime, not sure how that relates to a resource based economy?
Take into consideration that World War II got us out of the Great Depression part I, how do we get out of the Great Depression Part II?
Create a develop new products. The word "product" can take on many meanings, not just a physical object.
Does the current system not support developing new products? There's nothing new to your idea.
I never said that it was a new idea. You're trying to tell me that it's a bad idea, and we need to get away from it.
We need to create a new political party maybe a branch off the mainstream democratic party just as the Tea Party did off of the Republican branch. We need politicians from the middle class/lower class running for office.
a desire for people to control their future
People can control their future now, and always have. Instead of controling their future, they try to control other people's future instead.
No, we just want fairness.
You have no measure, thus your request is bull shit. You are just jealous, greedy, and angry for no reason other then you see this as an opportunity to harm people.
You have more fairness then you know what to do with idiot. Here's a suggestion, try using it instead of bitching for more, you STUPID FUCK.
My dear Watson, the white House is already occupied by the villains of Wall Street. The presidents of the Fed do come from Goldman Sachs and do return to Goldman Sachs when they are done stilling from us. The problem is that out democratic capitalism is already occupied by wall street. Do you understand now?
Sorry, I don't respect generalization, especially when you use the term "villiains of Wall Street". If you want to single out villains, you are welcome to do so. But you are not, you are lumping the frabric of our society together in one group.
You don't respect generalizations, like calling OWS communist? You ludicrous hypocrite.
If you weren't OWS, I wouldn't be calling you a fucking communist you IDIOT. Stop tearing business down. You lazy pieces of shit will NEVER respect business, regardless of how honest they may be. The reason I know this is because you have no standard. Your protest stands for NOTHING. You have no common goal, and you don't even know what you are standing for. You just can't stand the idea that businesses are in business to make money, and you have to work for them. There is no end to your means, which means you are a fucking piece of shit. You aim to bring harm to people, by any means necessary, for no reason at all. I will never respect a stupid fuck like you. Period.
Well, by the fact that you are from NY and are here to defend Wall Street I can only assume that either you or some close to you do work for Wall Street. What is there to generalize about Wall Street if not the gambling that goes on with people’s pensions in that despicable place? I’m sorry, if you do work for villains ransacking peoples accounts on a daily basic then you also must be judge by the same crime.
Typical response from a druve-bye liberal.
99 Percent should demand to be made whole from economic harm caused by The Federal Reserve and Schemers on Wall Street...for their negligent actions and inactions. Lured folks to borrow easy money in '01 to stir economy and then the Federal Reserve raised rates 17 times in a row....destroying the U.S. Real Estate market and bringing the U.S. and world financial system to its knees.
99 Percent should demand to made whole from economic harm caused by The Federal Reserve and Schemers on Wall Street...for their negligent actions and inactions. Lured folks to borrow easy money in '01 to stir economy and then the Federal Reserve raised rates 17 times in a row....destroying the U.S. Real Estate market and bringing the U.S. and world financial system to its knees.
99 Percent Should File Multi-Trillion Dollar Class Action Law Suit against The Federal Reserve and Wall Street Repackagers of Mortgages. Harm has been caused to the people due to the action and inaction of The Federal Reserve and its banking members. Wall Street Repackagers of Mortgage Loans which were traunched and double and triple insured have also caused harm. The 99 Percent Should file a class action lawsuit against (The Federal Reserve which is a private corporation and earns 6 percent on the people's money every year) for this economic harm. The 99 Percent Should also file a class action suit against the Wall Street Schemers who repackaged mortgages and double and triple insured them. The profits should be returned to the people's pockets NOW. The Fed can start by returning its $82 billion in 2010 profits it makes from its destructive and reckless monetary policy.
All that lost money is in the pockets of those who failed to repay their mortgage, otherwise the double or triple insurance wouldn't be a factor. Money just doesn't disappear. It was paid out on loan, and never returned.
The Federal Reserve and its member banks through its reckless raising of the interest rates in '03 to '06 after lowering in '01 was negligent for not taking into consideration all of the adjustable rate (millions of mortgages) mortgages that would go from 1 percent to almost 7 percent because of their actions and inaction. A 200k home went from 200 a month teaser rate to 1400 per month...this predatory lending was deceptive and The Federal Reserve privy to the numbers of such mortgages was reckless in raising rates 17 times in a row...thereby causing unrest and disrupting the real estate market and financial system.
No it's not. That program would not have been available to that person otherwise. There is no such thing as predatory lending, only predatory representation. The actual lending is legit. If you take away the adjustable rate mortgage, you also take away the ability of that person getting any sort of financing at all. And now, those types of people have no option for financing. Plain and simple.
Not true...Hilary Clinton talked about predatory lending and there have been historical lawsuits in the past. My point is that the Federal Reserve acted in its best interest and not in the best interest of the people as posed by its dual mandate of low inflation, low unemployment. The Fed was driven by greed...for itself and member banks...how much can they get out of these adjustable rate mortgages.... the Federal Reserve posted record profits in years to come all the while the humble folk lost their homes, their jobs, their dignity.
Actually you are both wrong, the home mortgage debacle is a direct result of two things. First and foremost 1994 National Home ownership Strategy the then president worked with then HUD Sect Henry Cisneros. The then Chairman of the Fed actually went before congress and testified that relaxing the lending requirements for home ownership was dangerous and would prove disastrous. Not tomorrow, not next year, but down the road it would eventually fail on an epic proportion. Ultimately I believe that in 1999 when Freddie mac and Fannie mae finally gave into the demands of the clinton administration to ease lending requirements for the banks to create the sub-prime lending tornado that eventually destroyed the banks worse that the savings and loans scandals of the 80's. Second and just as important, people clearly need to take responsibility for freaking borrowing far more than they could afford. If 40% of your monthly income is 2k per month, you just don't borrow more than 200k for your home. But people have this feeling that they are entitled to live beyond their means. I agree that when the flood gates opened, when the clinton administration opened pandora's box, it was too tempting for the fed and the banks not to take advantage of people who were not mature enough to own their homes.
Do you even know what "predatory lending" is? It's a catch phrase, a slang term, that you believe in because you read about it in the paper.
Bill Clinton INVENTED your "predatory lending".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act
is that you Erin? Predatory lending is not the point....the point is that The Federal Reserve Banking System and the Wall Street schemers have caused harm to the people. The Federal Reserve should return their profits -- $82 Billion record profits in 2010 -- to the people immediately!! Are you educated?
Are you fucking educated? Do you have any idea where the Federal Reserve profits go?
My what bad temper when you can't get your way, your language skills have broken down and your bad form reveals your true self...you are an obvious infiltrator and a puppet of the thieves. Go to sleep baby and join the tea party.
Your language skills are no better. You must be jobless to call me a puppet of the thieves. There's nothing worse then a slave who can run free at any time. You choose to be a slave, which is sader then anything in this world.
You have resorted to false personal attacks. You are a puppet and a slave and ignorant of the issues that face this country. Go to school and get an education.
I am no slave, I am free as a bird to do what I want. I don't stand in lines, I make the lines. You should try to do the same.
You are making ignorant and uneducated assumptions...enough of you...do not bother to reply...you are chasing your own tail.
Keep standing in line fuck face, the line goes around the corner.
ugly...why don't you try to buy a soul
Line....corner....go stand. Thank you.
The Term 'Occupy Wall Street' is a mouthful. Reconsidering shorter terms can make all of the difference!
The term 'Main-Streeter's' would further boost organizing efforts; as well as remind us that the everyday (as well as the progressive) "rank-and-file" alike will increasingly be our allies wiht the most clout!
Main-Streeter's (Ther term Wall-Streeters is already commonly used); the name of the game, OOPS...or is it the GAME OF THE NAME!
P.S. HASHTAG #MAINSTREETERS
As ARNOLD might say, " It represents PEEBLE" ; )
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
white people: please read these articles on race, white privilege, and occupy wall st.
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/pham091011.html
http://rdacbx.blogspot.com/2011/09/reflections-on-occupywallstreet.html
http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/featured/general/seven-occupy-wall-street-racial-justice-roadblocks/
http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/activism/saturday-radical-culture-disoccupy-blog-seeks-entries/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/06/occupy-wall-street-black-population_n_998722.html
http://pdfcast.org/pdf/decolonizewallstreet
http://pococcupywallstreet.tumblr.com/
http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/05/an-open-letter-from-two-white-men-to-occupywallstreet/
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-rally-cry-to-occupy-join-in-once-voice/
The protesters know exactly what they want... Ron Paul. Lot's were duped into believing this was a populous movement that was attempting to fix the greed and corruption in our government, It's not. If you listen to what is said, It's about loony Libertarian economics and Ron Paul. Nothing more.
Then you are protesting in the WRONG place my friend, and those around you are ignorant.
We shall see who is ignorant and who isn't. Good luck my friend, you will need it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/fuck-all-of-you-who-seek-to-fuck-the-world-we-will/
Rationality: don't let extremes scare you.
Once again we are all paying the price for the deregulation of OIL. Below I attempt to explain how the speculation in the oil market impacts each of us and what we can do about it. Please take this to heart and take action NOW! I have provided the link to a website and the name of the Bill where you can show your support for the legislation that will curb the speculation in oil that forces you to give your hard earned dollars to the speculators sitting on their yachts. Since, you my client base is huge and you live all over the world I will not be able to supply you with the name and address of your Federal Representative or Congressman The short version: The Oil producing Countries produce the oil, Exxon Refines it into gasoline, you buy it, and that’s how it should work! Now add the individuals and entities that buy oil futures contracts. They buy a contract for the future delivery of 10,000 bbl of oil arriving in the port of New Orleans in say Jan 2012 for $80/ bbl. (Remember they don’t own a refinery and can’t put it in their back yard) so; they create an additional (False) demand for oil thus driving the price to say $82/ bbl. That’s a cool $20,000 profit that you pay for at the pump. They never moved off of their yacht and did nothing to improve the product. They in turn sell the contract to others at a higher price and eventually it is sold to Exxon, because they actually own a refinery and ultimately sell it to you at a much higher price in the form of gasoline at the pump. Since they have artificially increased the price of gas you no longer have that extra money in your pocket to say buy food or a TV so you stop spending. The company (Sony) that makes the TV sees that demand has dropped and has to lay-off workers. These people no longer have income so (less taxes) and now they are not buying anything and more companies lay-off workers. (You get the picture) The Hedge Fund managers and Bankers who are considered the (Wall Street fat cats) like to steal your money and want to keep doing it so they contribute to their friends in Washington to make sure they don’t put the regulations back in place to stop them. The American public (318 million people) throws their collective hands up and says “What are you going to do?” I will tell you what they can do is to contact their representatives and tell them to pass the Bill to fix it! (SEE BELOW) Goldman and Morgan, are the LARGEST traders of oil contracts, if you could remove them from the market you would leave oil prices to supply and demand, the price for crude could be about 35 dollars a bbl and gas about one dollar a gallon. In one instance they were trying to take advantage of the Japanese following the tragic Tsunami and secondarily taking advantage of Europe following the Libyan uprising.
The most recent Recession (2008) was preceded by a speculative bubble in oil. The high priced gas kills the consumer and slows the economy. It destroys demand.
Look at the decline in US oil demand since 2005! Yet we have oil spiking first in 2008 to $147.50bbl then in the spring of this year we had oil up over 130 bbl in the case of Brent crude. It doesn't surprise me that the economy slowed in July and August.
Bubble priced oil is inflationary, it stalls economies, it forces emerging markets to buy oil on credit, and it acts as a giant tax on business and food. The high priced energy is bad for business and bad for the consumer.
Markets don't move on vague abstractions. They move on margins. If oil continues to be in a speculative bubble we will indeed have a second recession. If oil drops to supply and demand levels that would be the greatest possible stimulus and would make the global economies roar back to life. And note: nobody would have to call for deficit spending.
Oil must go down and stay down and these Fed banks and speculators should be stopped from trading in the oil futures by making them pay 100% cover unless they take delivery. Bubble oil is toxic to the global economy. On June 15, 2011 Sen. Sanders introduced a bill titled the "End Excessive Oil Speculation Now Act of 2011", which would force the Chairman of the CFTC to impose strict limits on the amount of oil speculators can trade in the commodity and futures markets. GOTO: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s112-1200 S. 1200: End Excessive Oil Speculation Now Act of 2011
Exactly, rational thought is needed, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers yourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
The only way to effect the change your looking for is to occupy Pennsylvania Ave, and N. Capital st, DC, then you will get your needed attention. The only way to remove the 1%'s power is to remove their control over the most corrupt system in our country, congress and the white house. Most of all you need a common message across all your rallies, without that, your a faceless crowd with incoherent demands
Remove power? OK, let's remove their power. How about this? Why not socialize business all together? Remove all privately owned companies, and give business to the people? What do you think about that?
Well, I think you sound like communist, I'm not giving my business to the people. I made my business what it is, despite everything the gov has tried to do to kill it. I want what everybody else wants for the gov to quit taking everything from me and wasting it on entitlement programs and bail outs for corporations and banks. I want Congress to not get paid too when they leave federal workers out to dry, I want Congress to have to wait in a waiting room at a clinic or hospital with the rest of us when they need to see the doctor. I want Congress to have to work more than 1 term to get a lifetime pension. I want Congress' kids to have to compete with the illegal aliens they just signed up for private scholarships and grants in California. I want Obama to explain to the people without trying to spin the fault onto somebody else and take responsibility for bad decisions like Solyndra and actually say I'm sorry for spending 535 million dollars on a loosing company like that. But most of all, I want Congress and the President to pay attention to the needs of the 99%
I was being sarcastic. The majority of the protesters would love to see nothing less then all coporations burn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8o3peQq79Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player
While I understand the need to build momentum, soon, the movement will need to announce some sort of action for us all to band behind. These people aren’t going to change anything just because we’re complaining. I’m patiently waiting for the announcement. I have been working on an idea for months now. You can check it out at http://sites.google.com/site/onecompanyatatime. The beauty of it is that you can continue your life as usual, but still strike a powerful blow that will shake thing up in the corporate world. They will wonder who will be next. We need to do something besides marching. Marching is great and I’m glad they’re out there, but there will need to be a next step.
You will not be able to build momentum, because you have no purpose, and no goal other then to steal money from business who rightfully earned it. Shake up the corporate world? What the FUCK does that mean? You have no purpose, no specific plan, no NOTHING.
I work in the corporate world for a company that’s such a conglomerate I’m sure you do business with them one way or another. I’m called on to tackle task that evolve screwing someone at least once a week, and certain managers attempt to justify asking me to such things. I’m proud to say, because I refuse to do such things, that these requests have subsided compared to how often they were requested at one time. But, looking at the bigger picture, if you think that CEO’s given the option to resign so that they can walk with millions, as opposed to getting fired for failing on a catastrophic level is a wonderful thing, I imagine there’s nothing I can say to change your mind. Even worse, some institutions were rescued with your (and my) tax dollars. That’s not capitalism, nor is it the rules of the free market (oh I forgot, it’s cool for the rich to get welfare). The people who worked in the office at Merrill Lynch wasn’t given anything except a notice to clean out their desk, but the guy responsible for their downfall was given the opportunity to resign, and therefor was able to walk away with $161,000,000. Maybe you’re on his level in terms of your association with the corporate world. In that case, I understand why your against this movement. However, you are correct in your assessment that as of now, this movement has no specific direction, which was my point as well. Anyway, back to the PACKERS for me, have a great day sir!! http://sites.google.com/site/onecompanyatatime
Yes, exactly. You need to announce action. Because right now, you have no purpose, no focus, and no coherence. You're just a bunch of MAD people, mad at different reasons, and you have no idea what you are mad at. You just know you are mad, you don't want to take responsibility for yourselves, and the logical choice is to the blame the guy who gives you a paycheck ever month. Great idea.
Since you basically said the same thing as the other guy, I simply cut and paste my answer to you: I work in the corporate world for a company that’s such a conglomerate I’m sure you do business with them one way or another. I’m called on to tackle task that evolve screwing someone at least once a week, and certain managers attempt to justify asking me to such things. I’m proud to say, because I refuse to do such things, that these requests have subsided compared to how often they were requested at one time. But, looking at the bigger picture, if you think that CEO’s given the option to resign so that they can walk with millions, as opposed to getting fired for failing on a catastrophic level is a wonderful thing, I imagine there’s nothing I can say to change your mind. Even worse, some institutions were rescued with your (and my) tax dollars. That’s not capitalism, nor is it the rules of the free market (oh I forgot, it’s cool for the rich to get welfare). The people who worked in the office at Merrill Lynch wasn’t given anything except a notice to clean out their desk, but the guy responsible for their downfall was given the opportunity to resign, and therefor was able to walk away with $161,000,000. Maybe you’re on his level in terms of your association with the corporate world. In that case, I understand why your against this movement. However, you are correct in your assessment that as of now, this movement has no specific direction, which was my point as well. Anyway, back to the PACKERS for me, have a great day sir!! http://sites.google.com/site/onecompanyatatime
Wall Street brought about the Great Depression part two. If you knew the in depths of economics or finance you would understand, but you don't. So you will have to wait and see the world around you crumble before you understand what we are fighting for.
Viva la Resistance,
You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Obama has brought us into a greater depresssion. If we let him continue, he will drive us further into debt. Obama has NO PLAN to help our economy. If you think otherwise, I'm happy to hear it.
I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about? What is it that we are fighting for? The end of Capitalism? American communism? What is with all of the isms?
Let me tell you what I am fighting for. I am fighting for a global economy that is based on all of the natural resources of the planet. I am fighting for a true democracy that is detached from profit-seeking institutions. I am fighting for the principals that America was truly founded upon; not the principals that Michelle Bachman, John Boehner, or Barack Obama understand. I lump all current politicians into one category: evil. Lacking morals. Lacking conscience.
I understand our problems to be so immense that if a true progressive took office he would not muffle them, nor elongate their existence. I do not believe that Barack Obama is fighting for the populous.
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Viva la Resistance!
If there were no profit seeking institutions, we wouldn't have currency, and we wouldn't have jobs. Are you THAT fucking stupid? Stop looking for the utopian society. Get out of our fucking country if you don't believe in it. By "IT", I am referring to the country that was founded on the Constitution. Have you ever read the Constitution? I mean REALLY sat down and read it? How about the Bill of Rights? I doubt it. Most people haven't. Get the fuck out of this country if you don't like it.
You understand the Federal Reserve is a private bank that regulates the world's currency? Free market Capitalism? You don't know what that is.
For the record, the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional.
You know not what you argue. I'm sorry if I seem pompous and all-knowing, but you have literally no idea what you're talking about. You're debating economics with an entrepreneur and former Wall St. maven.
I say occupy the universities and colleges.
They have huge pools of money in the hundreds of millions and billions in their foundations.
This money should go IMMEDIATELY, NOW, to help paydown and offset loans that students took out to pay for inflated costs of education.
How is that for a rational thought?
Absolutely, but only State run Universities.
Why not private schools as well?
Many are loaded with millions and billions in cash and securities......
Should most it go to their retirees ?
No.
I say it should also be used to directly and immediately lower the debt burden of active students and students who have left the system with huge debt.
And while they are at it lower the cost of education so students don't run up such big debt.
The higher educational system in this country has been raising prices as bad as health care costs going up or wall street and their fees.
They have the money RIGHT NOW to help from their foundations.
Absolutely NOT. Private schools are exactly that, PRIVATE. To suggest otherwise is not constitutional. Stop pretending that business, and yes schools, don't have a right to make money. Schools aren't charities.
So education is a privelage for the elite who can afford it?
Kinda like health care.
I won't stop....they have driven up the cost of education to the point that many students have huge debt upon entering much less leaving
And for what ?
Because they pad there retirement and make higher salaries at the expense of the students ?
[Deleted]
It's spelled privilege, where'd you go to college?
I agree utopia doesn't exist.
But it could begin with education in the country........something sorely needed.
We could give more people a chance and increase there ability to succeed by not handcuffing their debt to their education the way we do now.
The money is available right now, today, .....millions and billions lying there that can make a difference in a young person's life.
It just needs to be shared.
Greed is as rampant in the halls of universities as wall street.
I can only speak for myself, but I'm speaking out for democracy. (I don't like the word "fighting")
It represents increasing equity in how we distribute the gains of our economy and the elimination of corporate influence on our government.
One Common Interest: End Corporate Lobbyists
from there all these other issues can be raised, debated, and voted on based on our representative government weighted one vote per one citizen.
Corporate lobbyists serve the interests of perhaps 1 in 1,000 of us. with those numbers I can imagine an end to the practice. One issue, one focus nearly all of us will agree on that will open the door to all the other issues being negotiated with our common interest in the forefront. I think the next step in this process is for a single potent idea with broad support to emerge. agree? have another idea you think will do the job?
gmoneygross I would agree to end corporate and Union lobbyists.
as far as interests, I can understand how your interests overlap with those of your company, but they are not identical. I am still of the opinion (and I do acknowledge it is opinion) that the vast majority of citizens do not feel corporate lobbyists are in their interest.
Corporate interest is not even always in the interest of capitalism. look at the fall of 2008-2009 when the unwillingness of banks to loan to each other nearly led to a collapse of our economic system and pushed a Republican President to intercede for the common interests. I am not against capitalism or people making money. but their are reforms in the interest of the vast majority.
Then END ALL LOBBYISTS, that includes Union and labor lobbyists.
Your statement about serving interests in INCORRECT. If your abition in life is to be an employee, then your company's interest is also your interest. Corporations do not represent 1. They represent MANY.
If you don't agree, then stop being an employee, and start your own business.
http://newpracticesnewworld.blogspot.com/
If you have to ask you have shut your mind to the answer. The assemblies are gaining momentum because more & more people are relating to the need to call attention the the fact that there are many issues to be addressed. Piped down & clear you mind long enough to listen. You just might understand
AGAIN, words that mean nothing. Generalizations, "issues" that need to be addressed, yet you can't speak specifically as to which issues. You just THINK there are issues that need to be addressed, and you think the solution is to point fingers. It's fucking pathetic. You have no back-bone, no basis for your movement. Just fiction.
I spent most of the day here yesterday listening, and I came to the same conclusion as the original poster. This movement is going to need to find more eloquent ways to express its ideas than "if you have to ask, you'll never know", if it wants to capture support from the mainstream. If you're only capable of convincing people who already agree with you then what's the point of any of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8o3peQq79Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player
"Expressing a feeling of injustice", is the point of all of this? Not accomplishing something?
That declaration simply expresses an us-versus-them mentality. Every statement is about what "they" did to wrong "us". Polarization against a scapegoat is an extremist tactic, shared by extremists everywhere. To an Islamist, "they" are people who aren't sufficiently and correctly Muslim. To a right-wing warmonger, you're either with "us" or you're against "us". The same sentiment prevails here. The only difference is a different flavor of Satan to oppose. This kind of absolutism will never capture the center. It will never spread to the mainstream as long as its based on a black-or-white dichotomy that places 100% of the blame for all problems on the other side.
Like I have said soooo many times before- we are bringing to the light the injustices that quite literally MOST AMERICANS DO NOT KNOW ABOUT. To say that thousands of people are supposed to issue an instant appeasement statement is ridiculous. Obviously, there are many opinions and many answers- as we have the right to. OUR ELECTED LEADERS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE ONES SIFTING THROUGH OUR VOICES and making solutions.
And i agreed with you- polarized absolutism is not the answer. Which is why there is no one point!
I know this should be obvious but jic it isnt- our elected officials are not doing their job. "feeling of injustice" btw is vague as you try to water it down to. That statement (video) is very concise.
Elected officials are responsive to the concerns of their constituents, which is why so many people here feel that government is unresponsive to their concerns. They don't bother to vote.
Take a look at the 24% statistic that I cited in this post where I suggested that maybe it would be a good idea to vote: http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/
I vote too and take careful consideration of who I vote for.
That said, currently you have two choices: Democrat and Republic. Both are corporately sponsored. A vote for either is still a vote for corporate interest, not YOUR interests. MY American government has stopped representing ME.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's why I'm in the street with a sign with that says "Democracy is not for sale"
Tea baggers successfully created a third option, and successfully got some candidates elected. They put pressure on the Republican party and they have already successfully exerted a lot of influence after only two years. Will this movement be as effective? I wouldn't bet on it, based on what I've learned from this web site about the protesters this weekend.
A) If you're so pessimistic, why are you here? If you actually espouse what you're saying then you are by your own standards wasting your time. Further more, and let me know if this is coming across as disrespectful, but how long have you been using the internet? I'd think anyone with more than a few days use would know to take any forum (particularly one that espouses to be a speaking ground for 99% of the population) with a metric ton of salt. Wading through seas of fecal matter presented as content is part of the deal.
B) Third parties in America are a joke right now, that's sad but it's true. I recognize that the tea party has made more progress than any other 3rd party in the recently, but that progress has been pitifully small and incredibly (naturally) partisan.
Haha, on A, you missed the target by a long shot, and I won't bother to elaborate. An un-filtered forum like this one is a much better way to gauge the overall character of a group than reading official statements from a minority who can't speak for everybody. Here, everybody gets to speak.
On B, partisanship was their goal. And they've accomplished some very frightening things, because they understand the value of effective participation in the democratic process. And that's why I came here in the first place, because I'm concerned about about their disproportionate influence. They'll always have a disproportionate influence if their opposition can't manage to organize effective voting drives.
On A... No, please elaborate, I'd like to understand. What'd I miss?
We may just have to agree to disagree on methodology. My point with the forums is just that, everyone has a voice... including people who are actively trying to be disruptive and 10 year olds. But that's your own judgment call to make.
I wouldn't disagree that Tea Party strength is partisanship, however I think we can have just as much, if not more strength with a non-partisan movement.
The Tea Party, and conservatives in general, may be accomplishing more than you realize. Because they've transitioned from rhetoric to action, and action doesn't get peoples' attention like rhetoric. The state where I live elected a Tea-Party-backed governor recently who has already blocked a bill to abolish gerrymandering, killed Obama's high-speed rail project, and passed a bill requiring drug testing for welfare recipients. They also disenfranchised ex-felons who mostly voted for liberal candidates, added so many restrictions to voter registration drives that ACORN gave up and quit, and they're working on a bill requiring a state photo ID for all voters, which would only disproportionately hurt liberal voters. They accomplished all of this through voting, and participating in the democratic process. They focused on the goal of electing candidates who were responsive to their concerns. Will the Occupy Wall Street movement get to the same point? I'm a little skeptical so far.
As an irrelevant, unrelated footnote, an elaboration on point A: I'm a life-long technology startup worker, currently the CTO of a venture-funded startup. I've been running online discussion forums since before the Internet existed. Please trust that I understand more than most about forum noise, thread hijacking, and trolls. And I also understand the difference between what this forum would look like if this movement were more focused on effective action, and what it actually looks like.
First part: No, I wasn't aware, but I've been doing some research on them recently, with more planned, but hey, we're all busy. I should really be studying trig instead of splitting time between studying and posting here. My first impulse is to say "Apples to Oranges" (i.e. the two are different things that you can't compare), but that isn't realistic. OWS is going to get compared to the Tea Party even though we are not the liberal variant. I can't say what this movement is going to do anymore than anyone else can. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? But I'm not going to stand by and impotently mutter my discontent anymore.
Second part: I'll take you at your word about that. What can be done to change that?
(I'm off for the night, I've GOT to get back to studying)
Nothing can be done to change it. You can't hide the temperature from a thermometer. You can't make an open forum appear to be more focused unless the people who participate are more focused. What I've learned from my two short days on this forum is that this protest movement has no consensus on anything, no focus, and no serious interest in participating in the political process. That isn't what I was hoping to find when I came here to check out what this is all about. Like Seinfeld was a show about nothing, this seems to be a protest about nothing. It's a protest with the goal of protesting, not with the goal of effecting change to make government more responsive to the protesters' concerns. My suggestion is elaborated in the post that I linked to above: vote, or else this whole thing will be remembered as a pointless exercise in futility.
A) I'll cut the movement some slack being as it's been going for less than a month. The amount of debate and discourse that has been generated by this protest is a victory in and of itself. The Tea Party hadn't managed that in the same time frame.
B) Tech cred or not, I won't judge the movement by the forums. There is no way to sort the bark from bite on a forum. No bluffs can really be called. If you want to, well that's your right, but I disagree. Other groups are united by a single leader, skill, idea or virtue where as the Occupy movement is built of a single emotion: discontent. We're united by being pissed off, but all for our own separate reason, each of which has its own separate motivators.
You sound mistrustful and skeptical. Maybe you have good reason for that. All I know is that I've seen shit that I've known is wrong for years and haven't stood up to it because I felt alone and helpless. I done with that. It doesn't accomplish anything. For better or for worse, I'm invested.
This is a movement for individuals. If you're looking for a place to kick back in your easy chair and coast to a better future, there are two parties in the US that will cater to that desire. I wish you the best of luck with them, but I wouldn't expect much based on their track records. If you see something wrong with this movement it is up to YOU to change it. And by change it I mean proactively and positively work for the better of your fellows, not complain on the sidelines without action or purpose.
Before this movement has the possibility of failing you, you have to have already failed yourself.
My contribution to changing what's wrong with this movement has been to repeat my message over and over to as many people here as I can get to read it: http://occupywallst.org/forum/vote-or-else-this-will-all-be-a-pointless-exercise/. My complaints do have purpose, and I'm taking action by harping on them.
Elected officials are responsive to the concerns of their constituents, which is why so many people here feel that government is unresponsive to their concerns. = 100% right as is the essence of OWS
i do vote
Food, shelter, and transportation aren't enough for the American public anymore. Revenge and greed are what drive people.
Yeah, and you sound like one greedy fuck.
I'm not the one begging for a hand out on Wall Street, you fucking piece of shit. Don't ever tell me what I want again you stupid FUCK.
http://itsallcosmic.com/2011/10/04/pluto-in-capricorn/
please read this!
When you have a bunch of people that have no experience in anything it is like herding cats. They can not even get figure out how to do their own laundry or organize porta-potties.
Agreed. If these people think it's so simple, why aren't they banding together to form their own "morally right" companies or banks. I'll tell you why? Because they can't. They wouldn't know the first place to start.
also see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f85mSQKq6w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Axz6xkWowZk&feature=related
Bless you Aaron Russo
You see, gmoneygross, our society is not stable and we need some changes:
People should gain real time control over gov't decisions, people should gain the power to veto large financial transactions, microsoft should publish its interface standards.
Alvin Toffler was right when he said in his book "The Third Wave" that our political sphere must follow suit and decentralize, rely on temporary spontaneus team work and real time discussions and polls to govern.
That's called communism you idiot.
Not really. I have lived 24 years under a communist regime and I can make the difference. Do you really believe that Stalin was controlled by Russians? You are above average from an intelectual point of view. Stalinism was decentralized? You need assistance.
Are you saying that I should be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
You should be allowed to make one trillion dollars on this planet. The only problem is, and you will understand that, that when you decide to move all that money overnight from one place to another, you change the lives of many people. So, those people should have a say, they should put restrictions, you should negotiate with them how to do it without harming them. Are those people entitled to put restrictions on your money (a trillion dollars, not your money for food)? Yes, because those people guarantee your property rights, they allow you to make business in their society, they spend their time and money to defend your property and rights. Policemen die to protect your money. Property does not exist in thin air. You need to be part of society. That's all.
So, basically what you are saying is, when the government sues Oracle for $200 million dollars, and gives $40 million to one individual as a "bounty" for helping them obtain it, the government is basically stealing from hard working people?
Wow, you make a really great point.
GOD I LOVE IT when a liberal fucks himself in the ass.
Hard working people are broke.
What you say sounds like corruption, but I don't know the details. So, from your point of view, there should be no government in the economy, whatever happens? If I set up a company to kill conservatives for money, that would be legitimate in your world? Strictly for profit. Should the government be allowed to intervene?
The "liberal" notion exists only in the USA, because only there you find the kind of fundamentalism that would label all normal people as something.
Of course you wouldn't know the details. The details aren't important in a protest.
You are supposed to provide the details when you make accusations. A link, for example.
Im here because im tired of large corporations legally bribing our government through lobbying. Im tired of them donating large sums of money to over ride our vote. Our Government is bought and owned by large corporations
Unions are the same. You're a hypocrit.
As you see, unions failed. Quickly jumped to being cinical and amoral, right?
Why should people make decisions regarding things they know nothing about, especially business? The "99%" cannot make rational decision based on fact. It's impossible to do so.
Because, gmoneygross, they are the only people interested to make the right decisions to save our civilization. If they are interested, they can learn.
On the other hand, people who know are irresponsible and they only destroy everybody else to make another million. People who know have lost their most important asset, their soul, and they don't really know anything anymore.
You can't make a right decision unless you have the facts. This movement has present NO FACTS, only generlization, and hatred for an entity that they don't understand.
Lost their sould? What the FUCK are you talking about? Again, words with no meaning. No data, no example. Just bull shit words that mean nothing.
gmoneygross: morally, it is their life at stake, so they are entitled to make decisions about it.
practically, they are the only ones who have the knowledge and the ability to reach a consensus that they can implement.
Finally, if you fail to see the endless manipulation, pollution, war and material misery maintained by those in power, then I can't help you. We have technology and know-how to live like kings, all of us. You can't eat the cake and save it at the same time. If those in the street are not able to govern, then it is the responsibility of those in power for everything that happens. You are responsible.
Of course, this discussion already happened between the British and the Americans during the War of Independence. The very same discussion. And you only swear when you have no arguments. It happens to me, too.
also see 22 demands that are rather cohesive that can be further tweaked: http://www.agenturus.org/21demands.htm
You dream a lot, man. Those are wishes, not proposals. Most of them are physically impossible, others are worthy but you have no idea how to attain them, a few can be done immediately (legalisation of drugs), but they are less important.
In order for this movement to be effective a proper redress of greivances are required see: http://givemeliberty.org/FreedomDrive/PostFD/SchulzSpeech.htm
Government has billions invested privately see: http://cafr1.com/
Corporations provide JOBS. Do you not understand?
No, gmoneygross, people provide governments, governments provide laws, and small size firms provide employment, innovation, opportunities. Corporations provide corruption and destruction of government in favor of private interests. I am sure that you can notice that.
Um, no, they don't. You are generalizing and stereotyping, typical response from a cloud minding leftist.
I say, STOP bailing out coporations. I say, let the major banks and car manufacturers FAIL. It's a free market. The more we bail them out, the longer we will remain in debt. Let the free market weed these "currupt" and "failing" companies out, so that new, honest, and innovatice companies can prevail.
No, you are right, they don't. Corporations provide your gov't. There are no laws anymore.
You can say what you dream of, but corporations will do what they like. Who cares what you say? People do not provide gov'ts and you personally are not a corporation.
Wow, another irrational thought. There are no laws anymore? Um, ok. What TV show are you watching?
The problem with regulations, taxes, and laws is that it's never enough. There is never a goal. Once new laws, regulations, and taxes are put in place, people become dependend, and ask for MORE. These things like are like drugs. There is never enough. At what point to we come to a common goal and say, OK, we have what we need in place. There's ALWAYS going to be bad apples. You can't prevent or stop curruption. But you can't keep blaming and penalizing the system for it.
People are addicted to excessive regulations only because they do not have public responsibilities. If the movement succeeds to decentralise the gov't among a larger number of people, then these people will have to grow responsible or die. I am sorry, but there is no other solution but to grow up.
The goal is to live our lives. Conditions change, rules change, our gratefulness to God stays the same. Don't be afraid of change. What does not change is dead.
Actually they don't. If they did, unemployment would come down. This movement is not about tearing down corporations. It's about compelling them to act responsibly. If you're looking for a movement that is both sponsored by and panders to the whim of corporations, I'd suggest you join the Tea Party.
Here's where your jobs are moron. You can thank Bill Clinton for this one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_Trade_Agreement
And we can also blame him for not giving Gramm-Leach-Bliley a veto.. Obviously, you are so brainwashed by partisan politics that you think these protests are about defending Bill Clinton.
I don't think these protests are about anything. It's incoherent. Every reason differes from the next, and none of them make any sense. People says it's not about money, but then turn around and say it's about "corporate greed". Business are in business to MAKE MONEY. That's the concept behind free market. Limiting free market is called communism. If you think I'm out of line, I suggest you try reading Karl Marx. You will find more similarities to the Occupy Wallstreet movement then you think.
" Limiting free market is called communism." So any limitation on a free market is communism?? It's this kind of divisive trash that the protesters are sick of. If your goal was to prove to people on this message board that people that oppose the protests are obnoxious dicks, well done.
It doesn't matter how they make the money, right? All's fair?
Limiting free market is called capitalism. There is no fundamentalist capitalism working today in our society. There is no fundamentalist anything working in our society. No simplistic idea which fits your mind can be reproduced in reality.
Your Wiki skills must be off. Try again. "Capitalism" is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit, usually in competitive markets. There is no consensus on the precise definition of capitalism, nor on how the term should be used as a historical category.
Communism is a social, political and economic movement that aims at the establishment of a classless and stateless communist society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.
Right. How did you get from "a classless society" to "limiting free market"? Are you proud with yourself? Can you buy your street? No, you can't. Horrible limitation. You live in communism. Can you buy the US army? No! That is communism.
Because we're talking about "common ownership". We're talking about raising taxes on crippled corporations who are already struggling to help those who don't have jobs. Corporations are NOT charities, nor should they be. It's not their reponsibility to provide for the unfortunate. At the same time, those who feel they are "unforunate" need to take a closer look in the mirror, and ask themselves whether they are really in "need", or just "greed".
Your ignorance is astounding, either that or you are a liar. Corporations are struggling? Trying to help people? Are you a comedian?
You're right. They should just give into the struggle, go out of business, and fire everyone. You wouldn't know the first thing about running a business, which is why you are where you are on the social ladder....near the bottom.
We are not talking about "common ownership". Corporations are not commonly owned by shareholders? Streets are not commonly owned? I am talking - very clearly - about public control over government. Not nationalisation. Not cooperatives. People should use the Internet to know, discuss, decide in public matters and to control their government. This is all. Toffler is very clear.
My concern with that idea is this: in reading this blog I have found a vast number of differing definitions on what this cause is about, and a vast number of differing demands on what this cause wants. I am wondering how something would get decided and passed on something as important as economic policy or international policy when a simple, one sentence "we stand for" can't seem to be agree upon. How does that get overcome?
You are right. This is the main problem.
What happens now is a beginning. People just started to talk. Most of them say absurdities. The rest are not coherent with each other. However, they are the only ones able to fix these problems. We must learn to cooperate and reach agreements efficiently. Just as the industrial technology could not be controlled by an absolute monarch, an IT - based society can not be governed by industrial era political institutions. I studied economics and sociology for a number of years, and I was horrified of what I found in this movement: complete lack of responsibility and reason. But I have no hope for the future outside this movement. If at least you will understand what I say, that would be a beginning.
People already have the power, it's called VOTING. Any more power then that is not constituional. STOP trying to create a utopia society. It doesn't exsist, and it doesn't work.
gmoneygross, this change is necessary. Just as middle age peasants had to learn to read and vote every four years, we have to learn to share more real time power now. Otherwise, our society will fall. We can not go back in time. We have to learn to manage our new technologies. The public sector is living 200 years ago, the economy is living now. This is not feasible anymore.
I understand your fear of change. I feel it, too. I understand your attachment to a Constitution which worked so well for so long. It does not have to change. We have to change. When the Pope learned about the French revolution, he was not worried at all. He said: "But this is impossible, everybody knows that common people can not think." He was right. Common people had to learn to think.
Again, incoherence!!! How are they not acting responsibly. Maybe it's not that employment is too low. Maybe it's just that employment was too high.
Wow, your comments keep getting stupider. Clearly you stand to gain from the rich getting richer. Let me guess, you're in finance?
Um, no. Sorry loser. Great assumption, which is why OWS is fucking bull shit. You just assume that the problem is with finance. Put down your newspaper, and get a fucking clue.
"How are they not acting responsibly." Wow... I'd suggest you read ANYTHING about the financial crisis that catalyzed the mess we're currently enduring. Seriously, you are a prime example of why corporations favor politicians that want to slash education funding. Because they hope we'll all end up as ignorant as you.
The financial crisis began when individuals realized that they could stop repaying their debt, and not have to give up their property to repay it. When we started giving people MORE rights, MORE people simply stopped repaying their debt.
My neighbor stopped paying his mortgage 3 years ago. He still owns his home. It's twice the size of my home, and he now owes less then half on his mortgage then I do now.
At this point your stupidity is entertaining, it truly is. I am going to keep reading, hoping your comments get dumber. You can't be for real.
"My neighbor stopped paying his mortgage 3 years ago. He still owns his home. It's twice the size of my home, and he now owes less then half on his mortgage then I do now." So why don't you go to your neighbors house and protest?? If that's the whole story, and you believe everything you say, you should be doing that right now. But you don't because you are coward without principles with nothing but nonsense anecdotal evidence to support your claims.
[Deleted]
Again, incoherence!!!! This "redress of greivances" doesn't explain where the problem is?
I did explain but you just called me an idiot and moved away. Take a break!
no you didn't. You just pointed a figure, implied that Wall Street is at fault (rather then pointing out specific problems or specific companies), and you called it a day like the rest of the movement is. Stop chosing sides against corporations, you are making problems worse, then coming to any resolution.
You confuse me, man. I did not mention any figure. I mentioned Toffler.
Corporations are more powerful than governments. They do not obey any laws. They make the laws. Private interest make public interest law. The result is slavery and self-destruction of our civilization.
Wow, yet again more ignorance, generalizations, stereo-types, and accusations out of thin air. Nobody is forcing you to work for anyone. You're a slave to your own idiology.
I am talking about who makes the law. I don't have an ideology.
Wow, yet again more ignorance, generalizations, stereo-types, and accusations out of thin air. Nobody is forcing you to work for anyone. You're a slave to your own idiology.
You should respect yourself better than that. Anyway, if indeed no corporation has ever abused its power and no corporation ever influenced the Congress for its own good and against the public interest, then you will have nothing against us, the people, checking out these facts in real time, right?
It's very coherent I bet you have not read through this particular redress, it is the root of the economic en$lavement of the american people established after the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, all else that followed this fraudulent act is the link of chains that puts us 99% in bondage...watch the documentary America Freedom to Fascism which EVERY occupier should watch straight through once to get a clearer understanding: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orHVNUnRKlI now spread the word, or demonstrate to us your understanding of the root of all of this madness???
Noise, noise, noise. Make, sell, buy, work. Not everyone is entitled to low interest money. Saving is a forgotten idea. All simple concepts.
Again, incoherent talk ALL AROUND. Why are we damning corporations? Under what pretense? It's ridiculous.
i believe it is just about the QUALITY OF LIFE, and how humanity deserves a better world.
Really? Quality of life? How many of these people ate a hot meal yesterday? How many have a roof over their head? How many own and drive a car?
Corporate greed? Give me a break. How about personal greed? How about jealousy? These people don't even know what they are fighting or asking for. It's pathetic.
but not EVERYONE has a hot meal. and those hot meals, we don't even know what is in it ! it isn't fair that our food is 'poisoned', we waste money on things when we could provide for a lot more people (that's just one of a million points on why we do not treat the earth and what it is to be human seriously) take the good of humanity into consideration!!!
If you can't get a hot mean in this country, it's because you chose crack, booze, or meth over food. Sorry, but EVERYONE in this country has an opportunity to recieve shelter and a hot meal. Those who don't made that choice. Corporations don't put people on the street.
"Sorry, I don't respect generalization, especially when you use the term "villiains of Wall Street".--gmoneygross--a scared dude who works in finance and can't spell
You fucking hypocrite, you've filled this page with ridiculous generalizations.
You're a lazy piece of shit. Period. Stop speaking for othters, and convincing those others that they need to be spoken for, you fucking piece of shit.
Lazy, all over these boards you lose any of your points that you might have made, in vitriol.
You need to have a point before you can lose one. At least I had a point. OWS has none.
I thought so too. I came here from tea party. Im still working for tea party. but after learning, and thinking, Im also doing 8 hours a day at our local OWS camp and helping organize it. so they got me coming and going. dont listen to violet anarchist fringe people hanging around here like lazyassjealousanarchist who just wants to make trouble. he don't represent.
it should be about demanding better policy by way of better policymakers...the only way to this is campaign finance reform. No more bribing law makers via campaign "contributions."
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
Not at all. I'm a capitalist all the way. Sink or swim on you own merits. I do have a problem with money controlling our political leaders. With campaign finance structured the way it is, politicians no longer serve the people. They serve their wealthy masters who funded their campaigns. Media then picks and chooses the candidates they want at their debates. Its a terribly unfair system. Candidates should share equally in a pool of funds. Thus everyone stands on equal footing. Any candidate that chooses to participate in a debate should be allowed to do so. Thereby leveling the playing field, taking the special interest favors out of the equation and hopefully leading to the best candidate's eventual election...which leads to better policy...and a better America. Right now we're being lead by politicians who are well funded and in many cases not the best candidate. When they gain their office, they more often than not, structure their policy around a platform to pay back the donors that got them to the office in the first place. As a result we end up with bad policy for the American people in general.
Doesn't that require dual effort, not only from corporations but also UNIONS???
We're not demanding that any changes to campaign finance not involve unions. However, because corporate personhood conceals the source, it would not hurt unions so their support is valid. I can already tell you're just a corporate crony and will just ignore everything people tell you in favor of telling us we should all be on our knees worshipping and pandering to businesses and never regulating. That type of ideological purity you seem to maintain is what most would call 'brainwashed'.
You act like businesses aren't regulated, and that workers in this country aren't getting their fair share.
I was raised by a democratic family, and grew up democrat, all the way through college. I started realizing that I'm responsible for myself. Nobody else is responsible for me or my family.
Unions don't contribute to the GDP. Don't fucking tell me what I know or don't know, you stupid FUCKING piece of shit.
"Unions don't contribute to the GDP." So that's all you care about? GDP. That and your ability to use profanity in capital letters? I think it's rather clear I was right about you.
If it's not about GDP and MONEY, why are you on Wall Street? I think it's clear that you are just as greedy as any corporation. You're just trying to mask it with a flury of non-related issues and incoherence.
"I think it's clear that you are just as greedy as any corporation." Maybe? Or maybe I refrain from calling them greedy, because they are not people. They are simply entities created to channel the greed of people to create a positive outcome. With responsible management of corporations, I'm sure they will. But, that's not what's going on. They've tanked the economy, have taken enormous bailouts from the taxpayers, and have used our money to lobby politicians to resist any responsible change while giving themselves enormous bonuses.
And yet idiots like you ask, "How are they not acting responsibly." (by the way, questions end in question marks)
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
I'm saying you should be allowed to EARN a million dollars you unpatriotic piece of trash.
Here is a start. I do not agree with all of these, but I do agree with the process, a Third Continental Congress.
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/
Supplemental government? That's exactly how Hitler came to power.
We have to have a starting point to change things!
Yep, that's exactly what Hitler said.
You have a Hitler complex, get over it.
Stop trying to create a utopian society. It can't happen, and it doesn't exsist. Business are already regulated. If you regulate them more, you'll just keep asking for more. Where does it end? IS there an end? No, there isn't. History shows us that. Until you've learned how to run a business, and have learned how difficult it is to provide for the people who work for you, I suggest you do what you do best. Collect a welfare check.
I have sweated out many payrolls, never collected a welfare check in my 71 years and I am telling you our system is under attack. Our society has created the best capitalistic system ever devised, but it is being ruined by fraud and greed. Our political system is being overwhelmed by money. Lobbies are writing our laws! Capitalism without sensible regulation turns into greed.
Of course, you can make a billion dollars, just don't do it by you or your bosses buying our politicians, or using and getting away with fraud.
I was in the construction business and I know the difference between making an honest buck and using deception and fraud. This 2007 meltdown was caused by fraud and greed!
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
In order for corporations to hire workers, they need to have a fucntion that requires labor. In order to create functions that require labor, they need to generate profit. In order to generate profit, they need to sells goods and services.
Has anyone ever actually SEEN what a business is responsible for paying the government in taxes? It's ridiculous. If you saw a corporate balance sheet, you'd PUKE.
Taxes are not the answer. They are the end.
In order to create functions that require labor, corporations need to generate profit. In order to maximize profit, they need to make as much profit as they can, by whatever methods they can get away with, In order to do this, they must amass so much money that some people not among the chief massers will be unable to buy enough goods and services to lead a decent life. One way to overcome this disparity is by taxing selectively and having the national and state governments allocate the money in such a way that more people can lead decent lives. Another way is to let such people go hungry and sleep under those bridges which haven't fallen down yet..
Yes, sure, all coporations are massed together in one big conspiracy to take money away from people. Talk about BRAINWASHED!!!
FOOD FOR THOUGHT from: Lessig, Lawrence (2011-10-05). Republic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress--and a Plan to Stop It (p. 5-6, 7, 264 ). QUOTE: Journalists and writers at the turn of the twentieth century taught America “that business corrupts politics. . . . .”. Corruption of the grossest forms . . . . . was increasingly seen to be the norm throughout too much of American government. . . . . . Historian George Thayer wrote, describing the “golden age of boodle” (1876–1926): “Never has the American political process been so corrupt. No office was too high to purchase, no man too pure to bribe, no principle too sacred to destroy, no law too fundamental to break.” Or again, Teddy Roosevelt (1910): “Exactly as the special interests of cotton and slavery threatened our political integrity before the Civil War, so now the great special business interests too often control and corrupt the men and methods of government for their own profit.” . . . . . A century later we suffer the same struggle . . . . . If the independence of our Congress has been weakened—if the intended dependence “upon the People alone” has been compromised by a competing dependence upon the funders—the solution to this corruption is to end the compromise. The simplest way to do that would be to make “the funders” “the People.” A reform, in other words, that reduces the gap between “the funders” and “the People,” so that none could believe that the actual influence of the one was substantially different from the intended influence of the other. Substantially different. No system is going to eliminate the gap completely. But as Robert Brooks commented more than a century ago, “under a system of small contributions from a large number of people, it would matter little even if some of the contributors were not wholly disinterested.” UNQUOTE
Let me clear it up for you......
ok you Wall Street Fat Cats.......... (Obama)
What do we want?
We're not sure yet!
When do we want it?
Now!
What do we want?
We're not sure yet!
When do we want it?
Now!
Got it now?
Get off the street, and start WORKING. Stop trying to define "your" Nation, and start trying to redefine yourself.
I have to know what "hard work" you do to "earn" your money. Which one of Daddy's friends got you your bullshit job, parasite?
Typical liberal fuck, assuming that Daddy gave me anything. That's why I fucking hate liberals. Their debat always ends in insult and eye jabbing. No real substance. You're a fucking waste of time, you piece of shit.
gmoneygross, please read
I can understand your frustration with a lack of focus, and the ineffectiveness of finger pointing, so I suggest:
One Common Interest: End Corporate Lobbyists
from there all these other issues can be raised, debated, and voted on based on our representative government weighted one vote per one citizen. Corporate lobbyists serve the interests of perhaps 1 in 1,000 of us. with those numbers I can imagine an end to the practice. One issue, one focus nearly all of us will agree on that will open the door to all the other issues being negotiated with our common interest in the forefront.
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
It depends on HOW you make it, understand? Have you heard of right and wrong? Somehow people like you think the concepts of right and wrong don't apply to making and hoarding wealth.
How does ending corporate lobbying prevent you from making a million dollars?
If anything, it helps people who don't deserve to make millions but do anyway because they can lobby for government funding or tax breaks or whatever else will give them an unfair advantage in the market. This point should resonate with conservatives who believe the government shouldn't pick winners and losers.
Are those the same lobbiest who lobby for workers, who perform jobs that 16 years can perform, to make $80,000 dollars/year with pensions?
Collective bargaining between the union and the company is what got those deals, not lobbying the federal government. Clearly, there's a problem with unions going too far, but if all you want to do is scream about it as you did to Trask, I'm not interested.
I don't think that's the point. I live in ny and do fairly well, not that kind of well, but well enough. The ability to climb to almost any level of success in the US with hard work is our greatest asset. The point is that whether you make a million dollars a year or 25k you should have the same influence on the policies of the country. Obviously everyone has a different agenda here but it seems that a large percentage agree that the entanglement of money and politics has gone too far and left most people in the cold.
Yet, not a single person on this forum can make one specific example regarding "coporate greed". Everyone is just generalizing and assuming it's the fault off corporatations, and expect them to just hand over their profit as a hand out to help the unemployed.
Corporations do whatever they can to avoid paying taxes and hide their profits overseas, they've essentially abandoned the country, they are parasites. The evidence of this is overwhelming and you are either a fool or a liar.
http://www.businessinsider.com/16-more-profitable-companies-that-pay-almost-nothing-in-taxes-2011-3
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/rebuild-american-infrastructure-companies-offshore-profits-can-help/2011/06/15/AGlYAqXH_story.html
Free Trade Agreement pal....look it up. Signed by Bill Clinton.
Here'sa news flash you fucking piece of shit. This is a free world (at least most of it). If my country is going to implement policies to suck my profits dry, I'm taking my business elsewhere. If you don't think that's right, there's a place for you in China fuck stick. Communism, read about it. You want businesses to stay here, make it worth their while.
Have you ever seen a balance sheet after a company pays its taxes today? It's fucking sickening. Businesses are NOT charities. If you want businesses to be charities...then start a fucking charity and run it like that, you piece of shit.
I googled "lawsuit corporation" in Google's News section. I found out that Oracle overbilled the US government for 9 years--brought to light by a lawsuit. I found out that the Bank of New York was just sued by the government for cheating customers in foreign exchange transactions. I found out that property owners harmed by Exxon in the Yellowstone River spill have filed a lawsuit--presumably because Exxon would rather fight with people than compensate 8 landowners for their damages. The list could go on all day.
You needed to fucking Google it?
First, you don't know if those lawsuits are valid or not. Just because there was a lawsuit, doesn't mean that they are legit, even if the Government is involved. I've done business with government before. It's a CLUSTER FUCK. I once saw an RFP from a government agency to put labels on trash cans. The RFP was over 20 fucking pages long. It took two days to decode, because the language was ABSURD. The RFP in itself must have taken weeks to write, and likely took the resources of multiple people, and was a WASTE of governement time and money.
More money is WASTED in government organizatoins with oversite and regulatation, then is taken by corporations. I've seen it for myself, rather then READING IT ON THE INTERNET like you did.
My aren't we pleasant. You wanted specific examples, so rather than giving the usual Enron, BP etc. examples, I thought I'd see what the latest news had to offer. Since you are so convinced of your righteousness and love to yell with ALL CAPS, I've ceased caring what you have to say. I work with government regulations day in and day out too, but that doesn't mean that corporations don't attempt to maximize their profits by doing whatever they think they can get away with. It is the lack of any social responsibility that irritates people. You seem to think there is no evidence of any "greed," which I take to mean fiduciary responsibility without social responsibility.
[Deleted]
I love how you keep spelling corrupt currupt.
I'm not clear on what your position is. It sounds like you don't think the gov't is doing a great job running the country. Maybe you don't agree with all the positions that these guys have but so what, why get so bent out of shape? It seems like just about everyone agrees that things are not great and are getting worse. These guys have one opinion and way of going about it, the tea party has another way, other people have other ways. I don't get why it upsets you so much. At least it is bringing attention to some of the problems with the way the govt is run.
True. Did these people have the working parents that worked their butts off, put these people through school with the best of the best, and these people forgot where their food and water came from like my dog?
Here's a better qustion. Did any of these people have a hot meal and a roof over their head yesterday? How many of these people own and drive cars? Are they starving or sick? The word "greed" is relative. It's pathetic..
It represents a lot of things ... mainly because a lot of things are wrong. That doesn't mean it's not a worthy cause.
I think eventually the message will be crystal clear to everyone (if it's not clear to everyone yet) ... corporate money buying elections *
It's wrong and it's the root of a lot of the grievances that the protesters have.
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
Newsflash, Union money buys elections too. PLEASE PLEASE stop with your incoherent, idiotic B.S.
Obama's politics have increased the rate of decline in this economy. He has YET to implement a SINGLE policy that supports the economy. The funny thing is, the Republicans have done a decent job at slowing Obama down. Imagine how bad of shape we would be in if Obama had free rein. We'd be sunk!!!!
AGAIN, MORE INCOHERENT B.S. What is wrong? Show me the data!!!!! Tell me what is wrong, and who is responsible for it. Wall Street is not a "thing".
Have you ever sat down with the president or CEO of a business? Do you have ANY idea of what it takes to run a business? Do you honestly think that companies ENJOY cutting jobs? Do you even know what a JOB is? What function it serves? How it benefits our economy? No, you don't. You are ignorant.
First of all I run my own business. Don't you think it's a little ignorant to assume everyone on this forum is without a job or doesn't own a small business? Some people are out of work and some people have a job. Everything isn't black and white.
Secondly, since I don't know, please explain to me what a JOB is? What's a job? I never heard of a job.
dum dum
You may run your own business, but you obviously don't pay anyone to work for you.
Again, more incoherent B.S. Show me what's wrong, and show me the data.
A job is an activity such as a trade or profession that somebody does regularly for pay, or a paid position doing this. In this economy, your "job" directly contributes to the production of goods, which contribute to the overall GDP. For those who aren't educated, GDP "refers to the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period."
I don't think you know what you're talking about.
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
Why have you asked the exact same question of dozens of people regardless of what they wrote? If you want to know, a person can make whatever a society democratically deems their contributions to be worth them making.
Wrong FUCK FACE, I am free to earn whatever I want. Society cannot tell me what I can or can't make. I am free to earn whatever I I want.
Wrong FUCK FACE. You have to do it legally, and I would add in a morally respectable manner. How do you "earn" your money? What do you do to "earn" it?
WRONG FUCK FACE, legal or illegal is NOT the question here. I am free to earn whatever I want. Don't change the subject you STUPID LIBERAL FUCK.
Society is what gives meaning to property. Of course it tells you want you can or can make. It is what decides what property is yours to begin with. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with empirical reality. And that is, quite frankly, the sign of a crazy person.
You're a fucking crack head.
Maybe they should stop occupying wall street and go back to occupying dive bars and bodegas.
You actually managed to spell protesters wrong in your fucking handle you fucking moron.
The OWS believes in and represents the theft of private property from one individual or entity and the giving of it to another in order to curry favor with the party receiving the goodies.
This isn't coherent.
OK I'll make it real real simple. The OWS wants to rob Peter and give the money to Paul. By giving money to Paul, OWS members will feel even more self righteous than they already do. In addition, they will get all sorts of unearned adulation from Paul. After all, OWS didn't earn the money that they want to steal from Peter, they are just acting as the stickup man. Better?
I think that you don't understand how property and society works.
I understand perfectly therefore I understand the OWS perfectly. I also understand that if you guys get violent, I might need to respond in kind because you are not making me a slave to your system.
Thank you for confirming what I presumed.
If you presumed that I'm Peter, then you assumed correctly. If you assumed that I am going to let you get away with robbing me and then claiming moral credit for doing so, you're dead wrong. I will defend myself both verbally and physically if need be. Things are different this time around. There are millions and millions of people just like me who are on to your game and we're not playing this time.
What I obtained confirmation about is your ignorance about society and property. Given that you reject society in toto, I can't say that I really give a shit what happens to you. Having no respect for society should earn no respect for your property, as the latter depends exclusively on the former.
I respect society every bit as much as it respects my right to my own life and the proceeds thereof. I am not a slave.
You reject society completely. It is the first premise of your argument. Society determines ownership claims. The "proceeds" of your life are whatever society deems them to be. Luckily, most of us are pretty fair-minded people.
LOL! I love it. Let me guess - society produces all the wealth and it is society's to do with as it pleases? Thanks for the Lulz.
That society determines individual ownership claims isn't subject to rational debate, captaindoody. It's an empirical reality that has apparently escaped you. Absent an organized society, your claims to ownership are decided strictly by possession. If you can maintain possession of X, you "own" X. Possession is the only mechanism absent society or government to own something. You only get "property" after you get an organized society and government. And you only get ownership recognized by appealing to that society on the basis of an equitable entitlement to it. The society then makes a judgment about that appeal. In this way, all notions of property are first and foremost social judgments about what is fair.
You plainly didn't understand this. Now you do. Consider the implications.
Dude peace out. It doesn't make sense for us to sit here showing our e-peens. Just know that there are millions and millions of people out here like me who are doing the right thing, working hard, saving, starting businesses and just generally being good folks. We're getting a little tired of being told how evil we are and how we don't deserve what we've earned. I absolutely understand that one needs society to function and be happy, but I will not tolerate a thieving evil society that damns me for being good any more than I would tolerate living in Nazi Germany. Your movement will NOT succeed by alienating people like me.
Occupy Wall St Represents
What do you do for a living? I bet you "work hard" to "earn" your money.
Greatest post ever.
Greatest post ever. College students have no sense of the real world. I didn't truely understand the economy until I started working with businesses at the age of 31. People need to stop reading, and being a "back seat" American.
+1 for real.
Thank you guys.... I ran a biz in college but still didnt understand true biz till about age 30.. College kids have not a clue about life. The believe they should come out debt free and be paid 100k a year. What makes them special. Hard work and dedication made this country great!!!! Laziness is the Obama administartion
+1 again. The problem with 20 somethings is they don't know what they don't know. They assume they know everything because every person around them is just as stupid as they are. You'll never meet an idiot who will admit to being an idiot.
Why cant everyone see Capt? 20 year olds know nothing!!!!!!!! They dont know the real world, they know textbooks and what heir lib Prof. taught them
I see a bunch of spoiled brats who were told all along how great they were and how 'the future is yours' etc. They finish college and expect to live like Paris Hilton. I'm sorry, but no one is going to hand you a 6 figure job. You work into those positions or you start your own business. Starting your own business involves you putting your own money at risk. I just want to say to these idiots and have them understand: So you're mad at your boss? Guess who gets paid last or not at all if the business has a down month. Do you want to put your own money on the line and then not get paid? That is the reality of business dum dums. That is why guys who start businesses and put money at risk make more money than the guy who sweeps the floor. The worst that can happen to the guy who sweeps the floor is he loses his job. The worst that happens to the boss is he loses everything, including a place to live. So shut the fuck up, get back to work or I'm gonna fire your ungrateful ass.
Go Cap!!!!!! u da man
I have my own business. I am in the top 1% of income earners and I employ a shitload of people. What my business does also leads to the employment of shitloads of other people and brings about 14 million a year into my local economy. And I'm in my 30's. And I have student loans. And I pay them. And I don't complain. And I didn't get handed anything, so all these OWS spoiled fuckwads can go fuck themselves.
Your money must come from inheritance because it is quite obvious by your name,grammar and writing that you are not educated. If you were in the top 1%, you wouldn't have student loans, either!
I'm new rich. Student loans were the price of getting here. They are substantial but the interest rate is so low that it doesn't make any sense for me to pay them off right now. Maybe we're talking about different things when we talk about 1%. I'm a top 1% wage earner. Maybe you're talking about top 1% of wealth? I'm nowhere even close to that yet.
And, by the way, I was not an English major and this is the internet, so my writing will obviously not be near as good as it could be.
What is your business?
I don't think that you should assume that everyone on here is poor and unemployed, either! My husband and I both work and have a combined income of 96k. Not rich by any means, but we are middle class. I support this movement from my heart.
Sweet! You work! Good for you.
your in the 1% but still have student loans-your the dumdfuck...!
No. I am the 1% because there is such a thing as upward mobility in this country. You see, I started off poor and I did a lot of hard work and bettered myself. Now I am in the top 1% of wage earners. Unlike you, a bitter, broken down old hippie, I have made something of myself rather than expect everything to be handed to me.
What people don't understand is that it's not the rich who are responsible for breaking the bubbles. It's people.
Take the housing market for example. Uneducated individuals blame the Bush administration for the colapse of the housing market. What people fail to realize is that it was the Clinton administration who opened up, and liberlized guidelines for lenders to offer people in "lower income" brackets to obtain funding for houseing. Those same individuals abused those privileges, and stop repaying their loans.
Exactly.. But u missed that Carter started it off in 78 with Community Reinvestment Act
No credit, no money, NO PROBLEM. Bill Clinton says it's OK for you to buy a home.
During the Reagan administration, it was not easy to buy a house. You needed two things 1) Credit and 2) Money. Interest rates were high, as they should be. Those who were financial responsible were allowed to buy a home. The housing market was a steady upward trend as an investment.
Enter Bill Clinton. No no no, this can't be right!!!! We have to let everyone buy a home. Interest rates should be LOW. That idea that we should be actually pay banks interest on borrowed money is ridiculous. Make money cheap, give it to everyone, and the world will be a better place. Real estate shouldn't be a investment, it should be everyone's RIGHT.
The fish rots from the head, Wall Street represents the head. Obama is just complicit.
You are ignorant. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Seriously, you can't be pleased with the economy. What are you doing to change it?
I can tell you what I'm NOT doing, and that's sitting around COMPLAINING about it. I'm a believer in that our economy will eventually fix itself. When it does, you can bet that Obama will try to take credit for it. If you don't believe that it will, then you are a Marxist. By not believing in the free economy, which is essentially "Wall Street", you are playing into the hands of every dictator in history who has threatened and doubted our economic model.
If you're waiting for Obama to take credit - then you have become complicit. I'm surprised. I would take you more for a man of action.
I'm not waiting for anything, I'm just stating a fact. Not sure where I said I was waiting for anything. I actually don't see the economy is such bad shape. I think it's in great shape. People don't believe in the economy. That's the biggest problem with this country.
I'll give you that not every aspect of the economy is under strain - but as a nation we have a scale of debt that is unsustainable. The gov't spends $1.40 for every $1 it takes in. You're a business man - what would that matrix to do you - it forces chance. ps best wishes to you and your business.
And, Obama wants to increase that debt. Why would you support that? Our debt has been racked up by individuals who believe they are entitled to money, and not entitled to repay it. Corporations are not responsible for that.
I didn't mean to portray myself as an Obama supporter. It's investment banking influence in Washington that has accelerated Obama's tendencies for spending. It's a collision of poor judgement between those two groups.
I spent considerable time in the housing industry, particularly in the mortgage industry. I have agreed with higher regulation and oversite in the banking industry. But, you can't blame banks for the crisis. Clinton, and Carter before him, wanted to open the "money" flood gates to mid-low income families. What we see today is a result. We need to get back to Reaganomics, when interest rates were high, and money was scarce. Consumer to consumer financing was widely popular, rather then obtaining money from banks. Life was good.
I spent 10 years in the Prime Brokerage (hedge fund) business. We never cared who was in office, so long as they were manageable. The banks control the system more than the peoples elected government. Politician management is a key initiative to smooth out regulatory issues. Besides, federal employees are legally immune to insider trading laws. And that's the tango. We supply access to markets, they supply actionable trades based on non-public intel. It's perfect.
I'm not happy with the economy, but I'm not blaming Wall Street for it. What am I doing to change it? I'm driving revenue for my company, so that my family can have a living, and so my co-workers can continue to have jobs. What are you doing about it?
Ok, so we're pretty much on the same page. Like you, I run a business to support my family, and like you, I'm not happy with the economy. Here's what I've done: I've changed the way I do my banking - I admit, it's a small step, but I want to shout out loud that I don't trust the banking system very much. Also, I've changed the way I invest: No banks, no tanks, no drugs, no fast food, no oil. Additionally, my business is more and more a co-operative base where each employee gets an equal vote on all issues and my income is more in line with sales, not position. I also don't service any debt. I'm out of that race all together.
Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to make a million dollars in this country?
No way. Sky's the limit - that's why I'm in business! I just look at the greater context of the impact of my banking and investment decisions and try to utilize by best judgement.
Great. Now if only the "99%" believed the same thing, we might start to see a change in the economy. Unfortunately, the "99%" is looking for a hand-out to support their bad habits.
I can see how this looks to you: silly and disorganized. I find it to be a key element of democracy - an open forum for solutions.
I thought they were? The protestors want socialistic policies, and so does our current administration.
The minimum wage should be a living wage. All imports should be traced and NONE allowed into this company unless the related factories, mines, etc. comply with safety, environmental, and wage standards. We should no longer allow the "race to the bottom" by foreign and international corporations that prey upon desperate people and our own desire for cheap products. Pay a few more cents for that pair of underwear and you may end up saving the world.
Constitutional Amendments affirming collective bargaining a right, the availability of health care a right, and social security a function of our democracy. Powerful forces have aligned themselves in discrediting and destroying each of these aspects of our society. Clean air and water, as well as food safety, should be regarded as basic rights and should be enumerated as Constitutional rights.
Student Loans should be treated as any other debt during a bankruptcy. They should not be an endless yoke to those who chose to invest in their future.
Reconciliation bills should be fashioned by representatives of both parties.
Representatives should be barred from any form of lobbying for a span of five years following the end of their tenure.
The Equal Time requirements of media should be reinstated and frank errors, misrepresentations, and lies in reporting of the news should again require sanction. The news media serves a vital function in our Democracy and it is rotting on the vine. News has become entertainment and it must again be treated as a service to the public. Newspapers and investigative journalism are dying and our federal government must adopt every incentive, tax break, or subsidy to preserve them. I cannot stress this one enough. If our ability to find truth is allowed to perish, our ability to govern ourselves is lost.
We must once again be a nation of builders. At the end of World War II, returning GI’s were faced with a bleak job market. Our federal government anticipated their plight and, in order to shrink number of excess workers, offered the GI bill. This insight allowed millions, who otherwise would lack adequate financial resources, to attend college. This investment bred a generation of entrepreneurs, engineers, intellectuals, and scientists. The investment was returned tenfold. We are once again faced with a crisis that has left millions of Americans without work and unqualified for a transitioning economy. Our federal government should again take measures to shrink the surplus of workers without viable employment in our economy. A national endowment should be created that invests in what our country needs most; engineers, entrepreneurs, and experts (“the three ‘E’s’”). Scholarships, grants, and generous financial aid should be granted to students participating in approved programs advancing the three “E’s.” The effect would be a new generation of professionals proficient in science and the business opportunities of the future. A wise investment in our future will occur while abating, somewhat, the plight of the unemployed
Force all 501's to divulge their contributors during (by email link) their advertisements.
Require that all derivative contracts be codified, standardized, divided in units, and traded on an exchange. Additionally, require all financial institutions to completely reveal such contracts and counterparties to shareholders.
Require all medicare payments to pharmaceutical and medical appliance companies be below or at par with numbers agreed upon by these companies with foreign national health care plans. (ie. Medicare and Medicare D recipients should pay the Canadian rate and not a penny more).
No corporation should be allowed the ability of concentrated influence over our political process. ALL corporate donations to campaigns should cease and contact with representatives or their staff should be commensurate with that of individual constituents. Essentially, all corporate contact with government should be written and lobbyist should be turned into opinion writers. If the supreme court stands in the way, then enumerate the language in a Constitutional Amendment and lets have a vote. Lobbyists should not be allowed to donate to campaigns and lobbyists should have no direct role in writing legislation.
A military draft should be reinstated, but should require equal numbers of draftees from each 10 percent increments pf income levels in our population. This would provide a military that is a crossection of our population, but would mean that those who had parents in the top 10 and 20% would be more likely asked to serve. I think that alone would place a damper on any more stupid wars (I could be wrong). But, the powerful don't usually send to kids to war. Also, it would revive some semblance service by all to our country and shared sacrifice. It's simply disgusting that many GI's have rotated 4 tours through Iraq or Afghanistan, or have been "stopped out." This can simply never happen again.
All trade pacts should be ended and transformed into a system of import and export certificates. Such certificates would be issued for both imports and exports. If a distributor desired to import 1 million dollars worth of widgets, then he would be required to produce a counterbalancing export certificate for the transaction. These certificates would be unitized and traded upon an exchange. The result would quickly be fair trade. Think of America as a large, landed, estate. Now we, the gentry, are spending more each year than we produce and, to make up for the shortfall, we are selling off pieces of our estate. Eventually, we landed gentry are left as renters on what was once our own estate. That is America. If we continue to carry yearly, massive, trade imbalances, we are gradually selling off a piece of our wealth and earning capacity.
Abolish the electoral college and replace the election of our President with the popular vote. The electoral college has become an enormously sophisticated method of gaming the system and allows disproportionate voting representation by “swing” states. Every vote should count and the current system alienates voters in “non-swing” states.
You guys want to know what we need?
1.) Smaller Central Government
2.) Larger state and local Governments
3.) repeal of the PATRIOT ACT and Looser Gun laws
4.) End the Federal Reserve +REGULATE WALL STREET.
IF you haven't seen the OSCAR WINNING 2010 Documentary : INSIDE JOB about wall street and our government, i suggest you do as soon as possible. (available by torrents or iTunes)
This bulletin needs no explanation.
5.) End the wars/ end the 900 military bases we have. Right now the US is more vulnerable to a foreign attack than ever. we have THOUSANDS of troops stretched out in over 900 foreign military bases. These UNCONSTITUTIONAL WARS ( not approved by congress) are yet ANOTHER EXAMPLE of how our Constitutional rights are being TRAMPLED ON. Our Polititons have way too many special interests, and that is why power needs to be taken away from the central government. We start these wars so that we manufacture weapons, and the people in our government own stock in those military companies. Its Deep and widespread corruption. And in addition, they believe that by fighting wars, it will stimulate our economy (ie:WWII) When in fact, it wasn't until AFTER WWII (1950's) that we began to be prosperous, when we had all our troops home, and there was a lot more people, with a lot more money to spend in the US. BRING OUR TROUPS HOME. There here to DEFEND THER COUNTRY, not imperialize others.
6.) Fair tax Either a FAIR TAX system, or equal percentages THROUGHOUT America.
THIS is what Occupy wall street is about DONT let the media tell you other wise
One core issue: As wealth becomes increasingly concentrated in the hands of the few, who have generally ensured that they pay minimal tax, at the expense of the increasingly poorer majority, who increasingly need social services to survive, the tax base continuously erodes, thus jeopardizing the social programs needed by the majority. The wealthy resist paying more tax and focus the debate on attacking social programs and those who need them. So teachers and unions come under attack, as do the jobless; as does Medicare, and Social Security, and pensions. I think this is one unifying feature of the new protest and why it has diverse appeal. The Republican response is to call the protesters “dangerous mobs” and say they are instigating class warfare. Unfortunately, the Republicans and the wealthy have been waging class warfare for decades, and they’re winning. The question is how far those who, whether they know it or not, are losing the war, can be pushed before they really do fight back.
I think the movement at present is diffuse and maybe unfocused to some degree largely because it is in the stage of creating awareness and awakening. I don’t think there is a strategy for where it goes next or what it’s program will be. Personally, I don’t think it can succeed in the political arena. The two party system, effectively manipulated and controlled by the plutocracy, is too entrenched. If the protest movement can’t succeed through the political process, what are the alternatives? One approach that should get some consideration is what I would call “The Network”, and by which I mean a decentralized, widespread, locally-focused movement. Because I don’t think we can change Washington, or Wall Street, I think the ultimate focus may need to be in local communities, where we live, spend our time, can organize at a grass-roots level, and can take local action. At the same time through social networking sites, there can be nationwide, even global, coordination, idea-sharing, and organizing. What kinds of things could be done at the local level? Examples could include:
• Monitoring (and participating in) local government to make sure its decisions do not support the plutocracy at the expense of the 99%. • Urging local boycotts and or demonstrations in front of local branches of banks, including disseminating educational flyers about the abusive nature of credit cards (another scheme to transfer wealth), the refusal of banks to adjust mortgages to help people avoid foreclosure, etc. • Urging boycotts of and disseminating educational flyers about corporations that engage in poor environmental or labor practices, etc. • Organizing teach-ins on campuses to further awareness-building and awakening. • Support local food banks, etc.; and expand local ways to help those in need. • Basically, all actions – and there are many more others will think of – that start to leave the current social/economic/political paradigm behind as broken and irrelevant, and start to replace it with a new model, a new way of being in society.
It takes far more then to just submit the application to run for president. Not to mention the application fee. We all know that and this is why the system has become corrupt. Its no longer like the old days as far as getting access to run for president. If that was the case the runners wouldn't need to have $1,000 plate fundraisers at Waldorf. Not only that but solicit them selves to actors and investors. You wouldn't have to sink millions into your own campaign. It all has become a game. A game with peoples lively hood at stake. No political party actually cares or else we wouldn't be in this mess. Yes a lot of it is our own fault as Americans. We should have done more and trialed more politicians for treason. Americans were not paying attention until they lost their homes and jobs. We did neglect our own system. But at the time I was still in high school when most of the disgusting turns of government happened. Now as an adult I am speaking for my rights. I am trying to make a change. There is no reason for any of this to happen if the government feared its people and understood that they work for us, not like now where we work for them. So yes a lot of Americans did make this mess by caring more about sports, clothes, cars, gadgets etc and as long as their needs were getting met, the government was doing fine. Now here we sit. Now here I sit having to deal with a mess I didn't create. So if you feel that your so right in this whole game, why don't you run, help clean this mess up. I'm sure you have wonderful ideas that would help our lovely America get back on its feet. I put this as a reply to every one who is wondering what one of those that support occupy wall street is wanting as a rational out come. Yes I want our government to do right, not trade with other countries corruptly, not play games with our taxes and put them to correct use. Education/health care should be a born right, not a financial right. mass transportation to be able to get to work, work shouldn't be our lives, our families and living should be more of the basis. Mandatory sick days allotted, mandatory vacation time. CARE ABOUT THE PEOPLE! Revoke what NAFTA has created. Clean air and water regulations for corporations to the highest standards and you can't go to it to other countries cause they don't have the same code or else we will not let your product be sold here. Medical companies popping out meds and getting our doctors and medical facilities to support them for the money needs to go. Corrupt health care providers need to go. Agriculture needs to make its way back with out genetically enhanced seeds. I don't like eating corn that has been genetically processed to have the same components as "round up"in it. It shouldn't have to break my bank to buy organic food. The FDA needs to make sure our food and beverages are clean, healthy for daily consumption. We all know what great things Nitrates and Aspartame do for us, but wait that means we have to go to the doctors. We should be able to trial our leaders if they have done us and even other countries wrong. We work our whole life to help be apart of the system, it should work fine if none plays lending games with our system. We should be able to vote on wars and bills that our government is trying to pass. We should have a popular vote not an electoral vote. A true representation of the peoples will. Who are these few that tell the majority whats good for them? We see how well that has played out. These are the wants of me as a protester/promoter of occupy wall street.
If you think THAT's bad, trying running an honest business.