Forum Post: This forum has been hijacked by truthers, birthers, and trolls.
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 16, 2011, 8:37 p.m. EST by TLydon007
(1278)
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I'm sorry, but this is unbearable. This minority of crackpots has succeeded in making this forum a place where constructive dialogue is impossible.
Not necessarily; I'd say that all that's happened is that it's more difficult to find an actual partner for debate than if they weren't there. That said, there does have to be some way of chasing off the truthers, the birthers, the FEMA camp people, the "all Jews are evil" people and get the trolling down to a dull roar.
But you have to admit that a lot of those conspiracy guys were actually right about the National Defense Authorization Act and section 1031.
Also the US dollar bill says Novus Ordo Seclorum, which means The New Order of the Ages.
It's below the all seeing eye of the pyramid.
So what do you do when the paranoid schizophrenic may actually have been harassed or his liberties curtailed? There has to be something in between blind acceptance and blind suspicion. I personally don't believe or trust conspiracy theories because things like the FEMA camp allegations have been refuted, and a lot of the evidence on which they base their claims is either hearsay or outright falsified; I mean, they pasted a DoD logo onto a photo of a North Korean concentration camp and tried to pass it off as a Wyoming detention center intended for American citizens.
While they may be right about some things, I feel like that would be along the lines of a broken watch being right twice a day. It is entirely possible to accidentally come up with the right conclusion using entirely wrong logic and having not much of a clue what's going on. If you think of the struggle to understand our society as a math problem, then we're the people who do our best to attack it through application of the appropriate mathematical tools in a logical order and will mostly but not always get the right answer given the right information. The conspiracy theorist has a serious flaw in every step of his solution, but every so often his mistakes will cumulatively cancel out and he'll get the right answer. Since the correctness is almost entirely random, that method may in fact give him a right answer to a problem that stumps the rest of us. That does not mean that he has a clue what he's doing half the time, but it does mean that he doesn't shut up and when he does get something right he's damn near insufferable for a month afterwards...
Woh woh I never said every conspiracy theory is accurate. I just said a lot of those NWO guys have been right about a few things.
I know what you meant, and I didn't mean to imply that you personally were part of that crowd or gave credence to their crap. What I meant to outline there is the process by which someone operating on pure hunch and completely erroneous logic can come up with the right answer sometimes even when the rest of us can't.
Yeah I personally don't like when conspiracy theorists try to pose speculation as fact. If they would differentiate fact from speculation they would hold more credence. Specifically in regards to the items like the "fema camps." But it would really suck if they turned out to be right about their speculation.
Conspiracies theorists are easily misled as well. Fake information that proves their point is difficult to discredit when you want to believe. Anyone who is skeptical or suspicious can look at obviously incorrect information and immediately point out the fallacies.
I wouldn't say they are schizophrenic though. They aren't generally afraid that the conspiracy applies to them, specifically. Schizophrenia would be more related to FBI cars across the street watching the individual, the PCT's generally believe that everyone is being equally watched and controlled, and they are the only one who is free from that system.
Actually, in retrospect, that is pretty schizo.
Theorists are more in the category of a victim of viral marketing.
I know what you mean; the schizophrenia comment was meant figuratively, as in "what do you do when someone who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about actually gets the right answer?" I'm personally a hopeful skeptic; I try to believe in the best of people, but as far as ideas are concerned I'm not going to accept them if they don't meet a minimum standard of proof.
Honestly, I'd say that the decline in the quality of our journalism is partially to blame for this; in the old days there was a Murrow there to deal with McCarthy and a Deep Throat there to out Nixon. The media couldn't always keep up with everything that needed coverage, but it made an honest attempt and tended more often than not to get it right. That's much less the case these days; the Daily Show is a comedy program with no obligation to check its facts or even to comment on the important things, and yet it's as reliable a news source as a lot of the mainstream media.
This then leads to the phenomenon of dropped coverage. Something goes wrong, be it an honest mistake or an abuse of power, and it's either handled from a point of view of a cheap scandal or simply not addressed at all. At the same time, the Internet is pretty much completely open and it will come out there instead. This then tells people that the mainstream media (which people implicitly trust) is not fulfilling its duty to the people.
Now, there are two ways of looking at that kind of a situation. One is to roll your eyes at the mainstream media for being drunk on the job and just try to find credible information wherever you can. The mainstream media stays in the picture, but in a greatly diminished capacity. The other response is to assume that the media is intentionally refusing to cover these things (rather than just not giving two craps one way or the other) and thus there is a cover-up.
Once there is a cover-up, the inevitable question comes out: What else are they hiding? What else is going on that people are covering up? It is this mentality that becomes the problem, as now gut feelings of mistrust are more important than facts. If I think someone seems sleazy but I don't have proof, I simply assume that he has the power to keep the proof out of the public eye rather than taking a long hard look at what might be going on. And thus a conspiracy theorist is born.
Story time.
There was this older gentleman hanging out in my regular pub one night, he was from New Zealand with a Scottish background, born during the second world war. He was a fairly prominent journalist in New Zealand; he could name off the prime ministers he had talked to in person, and knew him by name. He told me stories about the military telling him not to publish specific details, things like that.
He said he a few things that stuck to me. The first being that he was an anarchist. Not because he believed in the whole anarchy politics, but because any good journal needs to be anti-hierarchy. You cannot take sides, and must always be willing to criticize.
The second thing he said was that journalism today is no longer journalism. I would call it opinion-ism.
I agree with your overall conclusion. If you look at a lot of the 9-11 conspiracy evidence, 90% of it was pulled from samples of sloppy journalism. The media was as dumbfounded as anyone, and brought up any half-truth or unverified fact they could find at the time trying to get an explanation, and trying to warn people of any other potential risks. I think it was the first time we experienced a sort of real-time journalism, where the story and all the facts were written at the time of the event, instead of an article being published that was researched, verified, fact-checked and published. Now, whenever there is a breaking story, they will start explaining what and why without actually being in the location or having a first hand account of the area.
I think what Alex Jones and these conspiracy guys, and even Colbert and Jon Stewart (who always say they are satire), are doing is not even true journalism. They simple find one story that applies to their point (ignoring the rest), than search for relevant quotes or stories that would build a deeper case. They don't actually get the first-hand research, they aren't at the white-house press conference asking questions, they aren't calling up politicians and interviewing them. It's that real-time Journalism, "This is what was heard, this must be the fact. Here are other similar facts, therefore it's all the same."
I agree with you; actual good investigative journalism of the kind this country needs to see is fairly hard to find and requires that you actively search for the people and the media outlets that do it. 60 Minutes is pretty good about that, and The News Hour strikes an interesting balance between covering current events (often by having a mix of experts and people who are directly involved present their answers to a "journalist's FAQ" of what's going on, why it matters, and so on) and well-researched investigative pieces (often presented as 10-15 minute episodes arranged in a series lasting two to five days).
For most rational people who are willing to look hard enough, good news still exists and it is possible to keep up on things by cobbling together information from the Internet, strong news outlets like the ones I mentioned, and enough stuff from the mainstream media on things like local (neighborhood) news that it's possible to build a coherent, logical base of knowledge from which to form opinions and advocate for policies.
The problem with that is that introduces a tremendous inherent selection bias into who actually gets the facts. The only people who are going to care enough to do this are the people who in some form or another were exposed to this kind of journalism and learned and grew from it, and thus want more of it. There are a lot of people out there who aren't aware of the dumbing down of the news (or may have heard of it but don't know exactly what it means) and a significant minority who know something is wrong but knee-jerk and reject all news rather than hunting for the right stuff. Those are the people who need the return of good journalism the most, and they're the ones that have been failed the worst by our current mainstream media.
Strong comment. Wise and logical. I wish there would be more like it on this forum.
It doesn't matter if conspiracy theorists are right 3% of the time. What matters is that their research method is flawed and illogical. They are useless and even dangerous. It's a mind disease. This forum should promote logical thinking and the use of the scientific method. We'll never succeed in making a better world without those tools. The days of myths, legends, conspiracy theories, etc... have to end.
Hummmmmmmmm The fema camps are real jesse ventura proved it on his show. So much so it only aired once on tv because it had so many facts. Big brother was really mad but it still lives on youtube please check it out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dys3xE2Bnk
So the powers that be were able to make sure it only showed up once on TV, but are unable to get it taken off youtube?
To many people keep posting it they can limit the views so if you don't know about it you won't see it. Look they tried to get rid of alex jone obama deception off of youtube twice. Oh I forgot many people reported that it was erase from their dvrs wow crazy.
see the thing is you lump all the theories together under the bullshit blanket/umbrella. there are reasonable questions to be asked that point to conspiracy about the kennedy assassination, the new world order, 9-11, and ufo's. most conspiracy theory is rubbish but that does not mean that these four things are. the is evidence that points to conspiracy in all 4 cases pull your head out of your ass the government lies i can illustrate this for you if you disagree... but they have lied about false flag operations, lied about the conditions surrounding death, lied about black ops, lied about drug running and money laundering and gun running, lied about the circumstances leading up to war, covered up what they didn't want known, they put our fellow citizens under surveillance with out a judge's order and did all they could to discredit them, they conducted scientific experiments with out peoples consent, they have overthrown democratically elected governments including our own (kennedy), they have stripped our rights, and subverted our justice system, so why exactly would i put an ounce of trust and faith in what they tell is the truth? see the thing is, all these things i have mentioned that they have done are what was once conspiracy but now recognized as clear fact. every single one of these acts has been documented what they won't do, what they have done in the past? there is a difference between shape shifting reptilians ruling the world and wild conspiracy theories and our government doing what it wants to to enrich the elite. all of these 4 conspiracies could fall directly under the new world order, since they are involved in kennedy's assassination, 9-11, and the ufo coverup, and of course the nwo itself. don't be so slow as to believe that 1. they are not capable of keeping people quiet, and 2. that they are not capable of pulling a conspiracy off. ows is about truth and it is about knowledge. if it is about truth and knowledge then we should want the truth and knowledge about these pivotal events... we need full fledged investigations into these events period whats to hide if there is no conspiracy. here are a few conspiracy facts gulf of tonkin, cointelpro, iran-contra, pat tillman, iraq/weapons of mass destruction, operation fast and furious, mkultra these are just a few well documented examples of conspiracy theories.... wake up
Do I believe that the government is fully capable of lying to us about any number of things? Yes. Do I believe that there are probably things that to this day haven't been declassified because of the light in which they show our government? It's entirely possible. Do I believe that the people on the Internet spouting this stuff might be onto something? Again, it's possible. Are there in fact concrete examples of the government doing the kind of stuff we'd only expect to see on TV? Unfortunately, yes. Does this mean that the people on the internet have all their shit together and are in fact more credible than the government? Usually not.
As far as the stuff you listed there, 9/11 is the only one of those that is even remotely controversial rather than fodder for jokes. We all know that Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy, and we all know that Jack Ruby took him out before he could tell anyone much more than that. That's fishy, but there aren't any real links tying Ruby or Oswald to any sort of conspiracy or to each other. Besides, what did killing Kennedy accomplish, other than giving Lyndon Johnson the mandate he needed to push necessary changes through in Kennedy's name?
The UFO thing is a joke; it's pretty much common knowledge that a lot of the "weather balloons" that were misclassified as UFOs were tests of aircraft intended for covert operations (U2s, SR71s, F117s, and probably a whole bunch of other planes that either never made it past the prototyping stage or whose existence hasn't yet been declassified or openly revealed) and whose existences were thus classified.
you are too ignorant to help. oswald was the lone shooter? ufo's are all sr-71s and weather ballons? the magic bullet theory laughable, since when do we test fly x-aircraft in foreign airspace where if we crashed we would be giving others access to our tech? don't be so ignorant. if you want to see some ufo evidence please watch some of the videos on this you tube channel the guy is a little cooky with his claims of contact but his footage is amazing and make no mistake it is no hoax, how do i know you ask, i experienced the same exact thing in the same exact place pine bush ny it is no hoax many people have seen these ufos in pine bush note the plasma and cloaking abilities as well as the mimicing ability but make no mistake they are ufo either from another world http://www.youtube.com/user/orionifo
The guy's camera was shaking all over the place in the video he put up there; from the video I couldn't even tell whether that was a craft in the air or some dude playing with a flashlight. The only way I could tell whether or not the video was taken outside was by the sound of cicadas outside. Incidentally, there are in fact planes similar to the Harrier jump jet (and its STOVL successor the F35B) that can hover, turn on a dime, and so on and there's an air base not so far outside Pine Bush. Once again, most likely testing of immature/prototype tech rather than UFOs.
As far as Oswald was concerned, you can speculate as much as you want but there was no evidence that he wasn't alone. As far as anyone knows there wasn't any money wired to him or his family or friends and none of their lives were ever in danger before the incident (thus, no monetary or coercive motive). Oswald had just come back from Russia after a temporary defection; if anyone set him up to do what he did it was probably someone he contacted while in the Soviet Union rather than any kind of crazy international conspiracy.
newburg where my dad was a chief ha 1ha ha c-5 galaxy and c-130 there are no x-craft being flown out of stewart we test x-craft in nevada at 51. also where would the hide them there? i suggest you look at some more of his videos he has shit tons posted these are clearly not x-craft unless we have shit tons of new tech like teleportation and cloaking and anti-gravity and god knows what else. there is plenty of evidence when it comes to jfk what about the hunt confession? besides that there is so much more but lets start there. http://web.archive.org/web/20080618150441/http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/13893143/the_last_confessions_of_e_howard_hunt/1
There are many people who simply do not accept the official story of 911. They also believe that the official investigation of that crime was not adequate and that the crime has served as justification for the worst things done by the US government over the past ten years. These people do not invoke lizard overlords, nor do they say that Obama was born in Kenya. 80,000 New Yorkers petitioned for a real investigation of the crime and I'm certain that many of them support OWS and would not appreciate being lumped together with nazis by OWS or anyone else.
There is a possibility that something did happen. I personally don't believe that 9/11 was the product of Bush II deciding he needed a Tonkin Gulf incident and then manufacturing one accordingly, although I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. I don't believe that the 9/11 commission was rigged or manipulated; we saw what happened when Richard Nixon and Rick Perry tried to tamper with an investigation (Google Todd Willingham and you'll see what I mean about the latter case) and I don't think that's what happened.
http://911blogger.com/topics/thomas-kean
"I don't believe that the 9/11 commission was rigged or manipulated" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kean#Without_Precedent Without Precedent On August 15, 2006, a book by Kean and 9/11 Commission Vice Chairman Lee H. Hamilton, titled Without Precedent: The Inside Story of the 9/11 Commission, was released regarding the September 11 attacks and the September 11 Commission.[18]
In the book, Kean and Hamilton write that the 9/11 Commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by The Pentagon and Federal Aviation Administration that it considered an investigation into possible deception by these government bodies concerning their response to the attacks.[19]
Remember how Bush resisted having the investigation at all, and ultimately refused to testify under oath.
Pentagon Papers Whistleblowers, Congressman Who Saved Headwaters Forest, and 9/11 Commissioners Themselves Call for a New 9/11 Investigation Posted on March 7, 2011 by WashingtonsBlog The two main players in releasing the Pentagon Papers were Daniel Ellsberg and United States Senator Mike Gravel.
Senator Gravel is the person who read the Pentagon Papers into the Congressional Record. This act made the papers public record, so that they could not be censored by the government. He was the only member of Congress courageous enough to do so.
Both Ellsberg and Gravel – like many other high-level former officials in the government and intelligence services (including many well-known whistleblowers) – support a new 9/11 investigation. Ellsberg says that the case of a certain 9/11 whistleblower is “far more explosive than the Pentagon Papers“. (Here’s some of what that whistleblower says.) He also said that the government is ordering the media to cover up her allegations about 9/11.
And he said that some of the claims concerning government involvement in 9/11 are credible, that “very serious questions have been raised about what they [U.S. government officials] knew beforehand and how much involvement there might have been”, that engineering 9/11 would not be humanly or psychologically beyond the scope of those in office, and that there’s enough evidence to justify a new, “hard-hitting” investigation into 9/11 with subpoenas and testimony taken under oath (see this and this).
Gravel is now backing a California ballot initiative for a new 9/11 investigation. The text of the initiative is below.
The initiative would actually help support the 9/11 Commission and fulfill the desire of the 9/11 Commissioners. Specifically, the Commission was severely underfunded:
The government spent $175 million investigating the Challenger space shuttle disaster. It spent $152 million on the the Columbia disaster investigation.
It spent $30 million investigating the Monica Lewinsky scandal. But the government only authorized $15 million for the 9/11 Commission. Moreover, many 9/11 Commissioners said they never completed the investigation:
9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton himself says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, and that the 9/11 debate should continue.
See http://occupywallst.org/forum/is-there-another-forum-thats-serious-about-discuss/
I am now Rico at http://www.themultitude.org/forum/ . They moderate the trolls, have 'report' buttons for improper posts, and provide the ability to 'ignore' people who are operating within rules but who consistently derail discussion by spamming. The arguments there are simply of higher quality than here, and the organization by topic works a lot better than a streaming list of push-down posts.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-i-like-trolls/
We manage to carry on some conversations. I enjoy whack-a-troll. For several hours the other day we had run them off and could carry on.
Don't forget the posers who pretend they are for this movement, but really are not and are just playing head games with everyone.
Don't let them in on you--this is what these guys want in the first place.
that would also be referred to as a troll.
Ok.
Sounds like fruits, nuts and flakes to me. Do they really believe i'll listen to em.
You forgot the many flavors of libertarians.
They've been here since the start.
At least some of them have contributed to the Occupations. In Philadelphia, I met a few that were more concerned with protecting the Occupiers freedom of speech than they were with the fact that it will never go in their direction. I'll give those Libertarians a pass.
Socially, I accept and believe in most of what they say.
Economically? Not a thing, and they won't give an inch there.
Politically, they are a mixed bag.
"Economically? Not a thing, and they won't give an inch there."
It's absolutely no different from trying to argue with a communist.
As for politically, I hope they get a 3rd party going so they can drive a big ass wedge in the Republican party. Other than the few at occupations, the rest have never helped progressives on any social issues and I didn't see any of them protesting the Iraq War.
What will always make me wary, is knowing the party was co-founded and heavily funded by David Koch.
It still is.
While I don't oppose the Koch brothers personally for taking advantage of a corrupt broken system, my only beef with them is that it's pretty god damn obnoxious to go around preaching that the poor should lift themselves out of poverty when you inherited your whole goddamn fortune and haven't worked a day in your life.
I do oppose them. They helped, and are still helping to break what's left of a formerly working system.
The activities of their foundations are legion.
and then there is ZenDog . . .
and in case you haven't heard, I've posted an Action Alert in the forum, it's from Credo, on the KeyStone XL pipeline:
Action Alert: Stop the End Run On The KeyStone XL PipeLine
Has your girlfriend taken a shower yet?
Z
Don't worry, once you become the leader they will let you on the football team.
woops
I'm sure once is more than enough.
Sirs, It is part of the difficulties that a movement should overcome if to be flourished. It allows people to empty out them, while stay aligned with the overall targets of movement. Don't call anybody a crackpot. He might have something to say, but finds it difficult to assert and express. Let them bring their goods to the market; at the end of the day they might learn much from you and join to the stream.
The worst thing that could happend to a nation is to have criminal Zionists walking free in the land and getting their ways.
They'll just let a nation bite the dust. They have done it to Europe, Russia, and Japan in the begining of this century and have cost them dear losses in human life and resource.
What is happening in the US is a repeat of that.
Most people don't know who are the Zionists and what's their agenda.
Being naiive allows for poverty to overtake the public and allows the killing of the innocent. The Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan wars are examples of that.
We need to wake up and do some research from truthful sources.
The Zionists will use the "Conspiracy Theory" convenient-clause to discredit any clues to their nasty activities.
"They have done it to Europe, Russia, and Japan in the begining of this century and have cost them dear losses in human life and resource."
YAY!! I love antisemitism!!
It’s not Anti-Semitism. It is "Defense of Mankind". Some Zionists are not Jewish. George Bush is a Christian Zionist.
Zionists love death and destruction. They have a constant urge to start wars. They enjoy seeing misery overtaking non-Zionists (all mankind minus 50 million).
Being silent about it to avoid being labeled "anti-Semite" will encourage Zionists to do more of their DD (Death & Destruction).
Thrash their posts! Destroy their illogical thoughts. When you see a Truther post, deface it!
Yup...
Ironically, there is another post called "Forum hijacked by trolls" which basically states that anyone who disagrees with conspiracy theories is a troll and setting the OWS movement off course.
Is there no compromise between the conspiracies and the facts?
What's most annoying is that we can't compete with conspiracies.. Sad to say, facts are just not as interesting. They're logical and complex and don't make the best headlines.
Imagine you know nothing about politics and you see 3 headlines.
Abolish the Federal Reserve
9/11 was an Inside Job
Prudent revisions to the social contract need to be considered before growing inequality further marginalizes our democracy, engendering exploitative relationships, effectively re-instituting the class structures that existed before the enlightenment.
They'll always win because it isn't as sensational. Alex Jones and others provide them with a narrative that's as juicy and scandalous as tabloid magazines that speculate about celebrity relationships.
I agree. Even when I went to the local Occupy movement; my first assumption was that it was going to be primarily Basement-Scientists and Google Researchers preaching their unusual conclusions. At night, I was right. During the day, working protesters had true messages, about inequality, treatment of groups, environment, foreign policy etc.
We can spend all day debunking, point by point, each argument or "fact" they bring forward. They say that it's just logic that their conclusion is correct, which I believe is re-enforced by group-think. I think the growth of this is a result of a step away from social responsibility. The new breed of culture is becoming a plague, especially for America. Alex Jones will preach "They are going to come for our guns soon, buy more guns and defend yourself.", than the Government will react to increase in purchased guns by tightening gun control. Of course; that just helps Alex Jones claim it was planned all along.
I have to admit though, I do follow the conspiracies and check the facts. More out of a desire to see if there is any credible whistle-blowing information. I have seen no 100% conclusive information for any of the primary conspiracies are true beyond a reasonable doubt. Seems to be "one person did one thing" therefore anyone I can associate with him is also guilty.
Say that the answer to a math formula is the conspiracy, or the "truth" (represented by 6 in this example); than the formula would be: 6 = 1 + 1 + 1 +1 + 1 + x. They have 5; but they believe the answer is 6. So they just keep looking for another x to add to the formula.
There must be a way to write out that formula properly.
Another reason is that scientific claims take a lot longer to develop than conspiracy theories. Doing proper research takes a long time. By the time you're done with your observations, research, and submitting your papers to peer-reviewed journals, these conspiracy theorists have published 5 new books about Reptilian Overlords.
If you think about it, the basic premis of any good conspiracy theory is unprovable. That is the tactic that allows it to go on forever, thus the conspiracy theorist can never be wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
Falsifiability is the concept they despise.
Basically, if you can't state any observable set of criteria that would disprove your theory, it's just not worth talking about.(that's my crude definition)
Karl Popper made this concept famous. Coincidentally (or not, who knows), his most famous pupil is currently the most frequent target of conspiracy theorists, George Soros.
Indeed. Their claims are often not falsifiable and they also break many other rules of the scientific method. It's not science. It's cheap entertainment for cheap brains.
whats that about who do you think some of them are and what process can we use to identify some more of them , also is it possible that a few occupy wall street sites groups and forums were created by some of these people you speak of just to throw more spokes in the wheels of OWS , because i have a new kind of MO to identify some of those pricks , and also to get rid of them because if we are not breaking any laws we can do what ever we want , so i think that,s the key i was talking to some asshole on this site the other night and he started asking me about militia , cults and i told him i am not down with militia cults anymore than i am down with the kkk or louis farrakan that as far as i am concerned they can all get fucked , i am only here to exercise my rights as an American citizen and to assist the OWS movement in a non violent manner ,
Oh shut up.
It seems more effort is put forth on this website to stop the "trolls" than has ever been put into organizing this "movement" into something resembling function.
It's dominated by hippies, you know, acid heads, dead heads, pot heads, crack heads. OWS is a bunch of heads! What a party!
Then go away.
"go away"
~the quintessential troll said from under a bridge