Forum Post: What is it to be Conservative
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 12, 2011, 7:45 a.m. EST by ZenDogTroll
(13032)
from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
My understanding is that the conservative platform has two basic divisions to it, as if it were a pyramid with a horizontal line - those at the top, where decision making and message crafting takes place, and those below, where the messages and the decisions are received.
Take the issue statement: smaller government
At the top it means sabotage every single effort at regulation, and discredit the entire government in the public eye, so that private industry wins in the competition for power.
At the bottom, this is translated to mean, smaller tax burden, less government intrusion into your personal life.
There are of course, more divisions among conservatives - there are social conservatives, economic conservatives, and what ever other kinds there may be, and among these various groups there may be valid ideas in one way shape or form.
That does not change the fundamental and basic fact -
and that is that from the top they receive messages wrapped in deceit. They are manipulated on the basis of race, class, gender, religion, and fear
I AM NOT AFRAID.
We were all born with a natural instinct to gather and store for survival. A natural instinct to care for family and community. This is human nature.
When modern society was formed, we began to sell out our natural instincts. Survival turned into survival with a little more elbow room. Then survival with a little more elbow room and a nice view. Then survival with a little more elbow room, a nice view, and something pretty to hang around our neck.
Fast forward a few thousand years. With the industrial revolution, came mechanized transportation, modern housing, air conditioning, and television.
We had become somewhat spoiled. Somewhat motivated. Still relatively down to Earth. Still modest enough to appreciate one another, care for one another, and work towards a common goal.
Along the way, the potential for increased personal wealth became more and more intoxicating. Now, the vast overwhelming majority want to be rich. They want it so badly, they are willing to sell out basic morality to attain it. They WILL sell out basic morality if given the opportunity.
How can I be so sure? That's easy. Human nature plus years of corrupt influence plus opportunity.
Mother Nature did not plan for modern society. She did not plan for extreme personal wealth. Once attained, we become fully intoxicated. We simply can not process the concept without being corrupted by it. Without compromising our basic morality.
Extreme personal wealth is the single greatest corrupt influence of modern society. With every 'zero' on the paycheck, our basic instincts to care for family and community are compromised.
Those of you who still aren't convinced, consider this:
If God himself gave you the power to end poverty, bring about world peace, and take a bonus of $100,000,000 for yourself, would you do it?
If God himself gave you the power to end poverty, bring about world peace, OR take a bonus of $100,000,000 for yourself, which would you choose?
Which would the vast overwhelming majority choose?
Why are the richest men and women in the world so incredibly determined to get even richer?
How did the world's wealth become so incredibly concentrated?
Why is the concept of a partial redistribution for the good of all so incredibly divisive and controversial?
How is it that virtually every developed nation in the world has become riddled with fear, instability, and rising debt?
How have so many world leaders and those affiliated become even richer as their own economies falter?
The answer is greed. The obsessive desire for extreme personal wealth. It's become a worldwide epidemic.
Not only is the greatest concentration of wealth in modern times the single greatest underlying cause of economic instability. The very concept of extreme personal wealth is the most intoxicating and corrupt influence in the history of mankind.
There will be no recovery.
and those who have profited
from social instability
shall reap as they have sown.
The money is simply the only rational option. The probable negative consequences of the other two options are almost too immense to imagine. If we ended poverty then we would pretty much guarantee that warfare would become a pandemic, and I'm pretty sure world peace at this point is only possible if we exterminate all life on the planet.
I think the trouble lies in the conservative attraction to "tribal" thinking. Conservatives have not yet come to grips with what it means to have a global society, as we do now. With the recent tipping of the worldwide population distribution to an urban majority, we can no longer afford to think in "Us and Them" terms. Those days are over until we either begin to colonize other planets or suffer some catastrophic mass extinction event. In the ultimate scheme of things, the real difference between the progressive and conservative perspectives is that the progressives overwhelmingly prefer the "space colonization" option and conservatives will be happy with whatever solution is the most expedient.
"Not only is the greatest concentration of wealth in world history..."
Is that correct? I thought wealth was actually more highly concentrated during the medieval period of feudalism, until the rise of the merchant class and the money economy. I could be wrong.
On the bright side, we are probably living in the most peaceful times in human history.
I think its safe to say that far more material wealth exists today. There are also far more people. The super rich of today are much richer than the Kings and Queens of the dark ages. The top 500 alone are worth around $2,000,000,000,000. Thats an all time high. Their standard of living is better than ever. The American standard has fallen over the last two years. Still 80% of the world lives much like they did a thousand years ago.
Is this just a disagreement over which concentration of wealth was greater or are you trying to justify it?
"Is this just a disagreement over which concentration of wealth was greater or are you trying to justify it?"
Just an observation, not even a disagreement (this isn't my field of expertise, thus I posed a question). And I was only referring to the USA.
Obviously there is far greater wealth today than in the Dark Ages, I was only referring to relative concentration (and maybe it is unfair to compare to an age when the people themselves, and their property, were owned by the king).
Its not my field of expertise either. I only took it up on the side because I hate injustice in general.
It is a difficult comparison to make. I suppose it depends on the angle.
I don't think the super rich today are anywhere near as rich as the European aristocracy of old; the wealth has been dispersed and distributed to the benefit of a greater communal prosperity.
Well, you and Coriolanus see it about the same way. I'll admit, its a difficult comparison to make.
In response to your position, and that of some who feel that inequality was as bad or worse just before the industrial revolution, I am going to change that line to "the greatest concentration of wealth in modern times".
By this, I'm referring to the world. Not just America. Hopefully, we can agree on that much.
Well I tell you what... spend any time at all in Europe visiting the structures which represent the incredible opulence of their former selves, all of which was created entirely through another's labor, and you will conclude that such wealth has never been matched.
Good point. I have done that, and I have visited the Great Wall and other structures built by serfs or slaves or prisoners for the gratification of one oligarchy or another.
The study of how that wealth was acquired is pretty interesting.
Most of what you have stated is fallacy - there is nothing in life that is not born of desire; ALL is evolutionary, intended to ensure our survival. Part of the problem is that we have lost the community as extended family that has traditionally served to censure and thereby check the excessive behavior of the few.
The point is that desire is born in large part of influence. That influence is now plastered all over the media.
THESE EXECUTIVES ARE RICH. rich. YOUR LEADERS ARE RICH. rich. YOUR FAVORITE CELEBRITIES ARE RICH. rich. THESE LOTTERY WINNERS ARE RICH. rich. LOOK AT THE BIG HOUSE. rich. LOOK AT THE FANCY CAR. rich. LOOK AT THE PRIVATE JET. rich. LOOK AT THE PRIVATE ISLAND. rich. LOOK AT THE BOAT, THE JEWELRY, THE FASHION, THE VACATION. rich. YOU NEED ALL OF THIS TO BE SUCCESSFUL. rich. TO SHOW OFF. rich. TO BE HAPPY. rich. rich rich rich rich
This is not just simple human nature. Its human nature, plus years of rotten mass media influence. Its getting worse with each generation. Now, greed has become a worldwide epidemic.
Silly... if you're that envious then start studying. It's a free country and you too can be a hedge fund manager.
Do you really think a country full of more hedge fund managers is a good Idea?. You think we should give all the new American hedge fund managers access to the fed window? Rich rich! I tell you ! we'll all be rich once Uncle Ben opens the window for everyone who can learn the 5th grade math you need to know for trading. Leverage Man I need more leverage.
If that BS about 'envy' is the best you can come up with, I suggest that you put down 'Psychology for Dummies' or at least turn past the 1st page. You just can't get away with those half-wit comments in this forum.
Next.
Envy was being polite; what I hear is jealousy. Ok, so, become a hedge fund manager and move to Westchester.... but please do not "covet thy neighbor's Maserati." It's a GD sin. I'm tellin' ya. Really. Geez, you know can go to Hell for that.
I don't want to be a hedge fund manager. My contribution to society is legitimate, my pay reasonable, and my conscience clear.
Next.
Well, and THAT, is exactly what I wanted to hear; I guess there's something to be said for honesty... but I don't know if anyone (but the church) has ever said what it is.
Hear hear!
There hasn't been an excuse to vote right wing in over 30 years.
It's even worse now.
I voted for Jim Jeffords - must have been 2000. I was never more proud of having so cast my vote than when he left the party and went independent.
Vermont repelicans treated him like dirt after that.
the bastards.
That's right, I imagine he and Joe Lieberman commiserated about that.
I doubt it.
here's some budgetary facts refuting some of the repelican lies . . . .
Note:
BUSHITE Tax Cuts:
1.812 Trillion Dollars
end the bushite tax breaks for the one percent!!
lol I think ur forgeting about when Obama bailed out wall street and tripled the national debt
most of that money either has, or will be, paid back.
I don't know, but the "smaller tax burden" at the bottom may be what they spew, but it is a lie. Right now the Republicans are refusing to lower taxes for 165 million Americans. All they care about are the wealthy 1%.
CONSERVATIVE n.
A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce
well, that is an interesting spin on it I guess
The Revolution has a new theme song!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L-GOHa5-YQ
http://occupywallst.org/forum/in-the-name-of-allah/
The Revolution starts here!
I wish I had hi-speed
You can't rationally be afraid of Big Government and not Big Business.
LoL!
no doubt about it . . .
the fukers just ain't rational
Lets fuck them up those bastards.
ho raa
Occupy Wall Street: Markos Moulitsas on why Republicans are scared of Occupy
December 1, 2011
Keith and “Countdown” contributor Markos Moulitsas analyze why the Republicans have summoned pollster Frank Luntz to help diffuse the message of Occupy Wall Street. Moulitsas argues that the involvement of Luntz signifies that Republicans are scared of the movement. He says that the fact that Republicans have backtracked on their opposition to an extension of the middle-class payroll tax cuts demonstrates the power of the 99 percent message: **“Republicans have not caved on any issue like that as far as I remember**.”
This is exactly what this thread is about. This is how the conservative republicans sell the American people a scam by concocting a message that cleverly misleads us. These bastards will do anything, and I mean anything to win power, destroy OWS, and make us all slaves. They already want American laborers to compete with the Chinese!!! Get rid of minimum wage and we can be there very quickly.
Maybe then a box will be better than a house. Those boxes are very high tech these daze. We could live in one. We just have to adjust the American dream a little. We'll watch the rich and famous on our little flat screens, and wella, we can be rich in our minds. Right? We're all rich, what were we thinking?!?!
this summer is going to be crazy
they have only themselves to blame
You got it, that seed has been sewn and this summer it's a plant in full bloom. I will probably be in Washington DC. I remember the anti-war march in 2007, it was packed in, and it was a sea of protestors. It was big. The Jon Stewart Rally was right about 600,000 people. Tremendous. We were actually trapped for 45 minutes (could not move) in the crowd. It was a solid sea of people from the Washington Monument to the White House. Wild! Invigorating! After it was over, we were stuck for about 5 hours. No one really could get out very fast. The metros were backed up into the streets. Wild scene. But, man, there were so many people it just hard to realize. Everywhere. (fourth of july brought in about 250K people, that time I rode in on the metro, took 1.5 hours to get out.)
This summer, the coolest thing would be to clog that capital with so many people it will take a day to get them all out and maybe we stay for few days anyway!!! What trip that would be. Zen, most don't realize potential this has. Put 1.5 million down there and that city stops, the whole thing. If I'm in the middle of that it will truly be magnificent and it will be written history living it real time. These are powerful moments and the planet will take pause. That visual will contain the entire message that our time will have come.
Looking forward to it. Take it easy!!!
it is history in the making
just breathe man
just breathe
LoL, flashback : )
yeah
I guess
It wasn't pretty
whether its right or wrong here is how I look at it.
I am liberal when it comes to abortion, that is to say I am -for- it. (womans right to choose) this issue divides parties
I am conservative when it comes to war, which is my way of saying probably not. (this issue divides parties too, both parties find themselves on both sides, for and against)
I am liberal when it comes to personal liberty and individual rights. (More of that please) no party should be writing laws restricting these, yet -BOTH- do. why?
I am conservative when it comes to TSA sticking hands down peoples pants without taking an oath to uphold the constitution. Besides, police cant even do that and they take an oath to the constitution. anyway.. Im conservative here, which of course means I am saying no to that nonsense. (Again, BOTH parties sign on to these bills violating individual rights, and personal liberties) I don't believe representatives should be doing that because its not in the interest of a free society. But they BOTH do. unfortunate in my opinion, so yeah I am conservative there.
You cant just be conservative on every issue obviously. (Conservative on freedom of speech?)
Nor can you just be liberal on everything. (Liberal on genocide?)
So I think for myself issue by issue and decide for myself rather than just toe a party line out of good-faith, and support representatives by looking at them, individual by individual right through both parties, to find the one representing what I consider to be the most important issues of the day, by checking voting records the best that I can.
I think its like saying I'm long pitchforks and am shorting pepper spray
It sounds to me that you know the value of independence . . .
You all seem to be most concerned about corruption in Congress. Specifically the role big money has in ruling Congress. I respectfully submit that there is one person, Buddy Roemer, who is running for president who believes this as well. He is a moderate not a right winger. Some may say well he is a banker and therefor evil. This is goofy. He started a small town bank. Small town banks are much better at helping local businesses than the big boys who are only interested in supporting the big businesses. Roemer is not big money and he is accepting no PAC money. He has been barred from the Republican debates. His voice they do not want to here because it effects there pockets..Democrats also do not want to here from him for the same reason.
yeah - I think I'll stick with the President, but thanks.
No, there is not one good reason. They don't even bother lying anymore.
It is a sad case when you have those that willingly participate in the destabilization of their own country. It is disgusting.
We need to educate and info our friends even more. We need to keep the message out there. We're still winning and must not stop!!!
Great point GirlFriday, it is disgusting and fighting against this is the only way to maintain sanity in an insane world!
wondering how much better being lied to would be.
they simply can't take responsibility for the results of their own ideology - it's called denial.
I want to see them flee the halls of Congress with their coat tails flapping behind them . . . .
"Can't take responsibility" is giving them too much credit. They just flat out do not care.
No problem going to other countries and destroying people. NO problem destroying the land here for their corporate masters. No problem destroying wages here. They are determined to return to a feudal society. This is a willful act.
The Repelican party was destroyed years ago.
Of course.
silly me. What was I thinking?
I'm sorry.
I am frustrated.
no way - don't be sorry.
You are right - it is willful.
I had started to type in a comment previously, something to the effect that if it is willful and if it began a long time ago, then it wasn't the repelican party but the republican party that had already been destroyed . . .
and then I thought don't be silly
she's frustrated. Don't spit hairs.
So, you know, . . . . .
an inability to take responsibility is completely different from a steadfast refusal to do so, the first merits compassion, the second merits something else entirely . . . .
you have every reason to be frustrated. One would think this could all be straightened out by Christmas and with a simple stroke of a pen.
but precisely because you are so right that will not happen.
And, what is the excuse to vote Democrat? They are the same thing. http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-must-act-one-day-left-until-american-citize/
What part of Republicans are even worse do you not understand?
Did you miss the entire 8years of the Great Reagan recession?
Did you miss the part where the whole thing fell apart under Bush?
The part where we are still under the Bush crash?
Did you really think anyone could turn it all around in a few years?
Reality is not television, you can't just flip the switch and change everything.
Did you miss the part where the current crop of teabaggers have broken all records for filibuster? Freezing all attempts at turning it around?
Tell me what have Republicans done to deserve my vote?
yeah-ya - that's the repelican spin, I see you've bought it.
They are not the same at all. You can see that with the budget debate
You can see that with the approach advocated by McCain re: Libya, vs what the President ordered.
You could see that with Bush, when he refused to even consider a time line for withdrawal from Iraq - The President, as candidate, changed that entire debate and our foreign policy
Vote however you like, but in substantial ways they are not the same.
Having said that, I am not in position to speak to every single candidate for legislative office. There is a nimrod in every crowd.
Did you miss the part where President Obama specifically requested language be crafted in backroom legislation so the United States government can detain its own citizens indefinitely without charges or a trial?
Did you miss the part where Obama championed the payroll tax cut (originally proposed by McCain and Hatch) as a means to defund Social Security)?
Did you miss the part where the health insurance reform was drafted and written by big pharm and health insurance companies while doctors and nurses who protested at Senate Hearings for Single Payer were arrested?
Did you miss the unconstitutional invasion of Libya?
Did you miss the total failure to hold any Bush administration official responsible for war crimes?
Did you miss the part where Obama actively worked with Republican Senators to ensure Spain would not try Bush on war crimes charges?
Did you miss the part about Obama repealing the thirty year mortatorim on off shore drilling?
As long as the Occupy movement holds to supporting a man who has advanced policy and legislation that exceeds Bush violations against civil and human rights and justified this support based on the fear of Republicans, the 1% have us EXACTLY where they want us. Distracted, confused, and actively supporting THEIR installed puppet. WAKE UP
We never actually invaded. I think I've addressed the issue of Libya in depth already, I guess I'll have to hunt that down and repost it. Holding that up as an example against the President just discredits everything else you point at.
Here:
you know what?
when you go here:
I tune you out.
Do you know why?
I'll tell you why.
the ones who first claimed that Obama's actions in Libya were unconstitutional were repelicans playing for political leverage
Gadhafi was on the brink of wiping out Misrata - and everyone in Misrata. I'm sure very few would have survived.
Why is it you stand with Egyptions, and not with Libyans? I do not understand.
The British and the French were going to respond anyway. They had to, because of the wave of refugees leaving Libya and sailing to Europe. The repelicans wanted to take the lead - and never mind who's gonna pay for it.
grandma will pay for it with the social security checks she won't get.
Since the Brits and French were going in anyway - working within NATO we provided intel with drones, that was our principle function. It may have saved lives - providing more accuracy in targeting the battlefield.
al-Qaida?
what? are we supposed to believe that they are in the process of taking over? Possible I guess - doesn't seem likely - the reports I had heard were mixed on that, but it could be true.
I don't think the Libyans are likely going to appreciate trading one dictator for another. Hopefully they can sort that shit out.
but when you start crying that we had any involvement in Libya, that it was a crime, that it was wrong -
then I say you stand in silent acceptance of every victim in every mass grave Gadhafi dug.
I don't have any respect for that position. that fucking guy was a mass murderer - the people rose up and asked for our assistance.
without it they would all have been slain.
Do you get that?
without it they would all have been slain.
I see. Dismiss everything I wrote based on one point where you disagree. Cowardly and weak. Right now, Obama is working with Congress for the ability to indefinitely detain American citizens without charges or trial and you are going to waste your energy trying to defend and Obama action that furthered advanced the Bush doctrine of executive right to declare invasion outside of imminent threat to the nation. Really. Why don't you just tell me why its a good thing that Obama is seeking law to detain citizens without charges and why we have to throw out core constitutional rights. YOU and everyone else who refuses to acknowledge the reality of this President rather then protest the severe violations of human rights and civil liberty abuses occurring under this administration are as guilty as those who perpetuate it. You are enablers and you are advancing policies that even Bush didn't have the audacity to try. Wake up. (And, go to the original link). Interesting how the entire subject of my original post got completely sidetracked onto another subject because their is no justifying Obama's actions. No rationalization. No where to run.
You haven't provided proof of that. just assertions. One of them relates to Libya. I find that one in particular extremely offensive.
When you find it so easy to ignore the following facts:
I find it very easy to dismiss the rest of your claims as no more than simple hysteria - hysteria by the way, that in the end will help repelicans with the dismantling of every single protection the public has against corporate and political corruption
A fiscal conservative is neither a Republican or Democrat. Even Gingrich isn't morally or fiscally conservative but he's been in the business long enough to know what product to sell to the Southern states.
Unless he has better ideas than the liberal democrat.
ideas indeed - shrouded by linguistic obfuscation and wrapped in deceit . . .
the repelican party is done.
Maybe we could use an actual word when we refer to real objects
yeah-ya
tell it to Dubya
the repelican party is done I said.
I you mean republican?
i said what I meant nimrod
the repelican party is done
You are correct that there are many different groups claiming the "conservative" label - fiscal conservatives, social conservatives, religious folks, etc. The label is probably pretty meaningless nowadays, and it isn't synonymous with "republican"; FWIW the "conservative" writer Thomas Sowell put it something like this: "conservatism is a set of beliefs and values; the Republican Party is a machine for winning elections." Words to that effect anyway. I believe conservatives trace their intellectual underpinnings back to Edmund Burke, so to understand them I assume you would have to start your reading with Burke. Others worth studying would be T. S. Eliot, Toqueville, Santayana, and some others that slip my mind right now. Have fun and good luck.
By the way, can you explain the "pelican" metaphor? Pelicans are fascinating birds.
It is a term of approbation,
a proof,
derogatory in nature,
intended to shame and to ridicule
those who run for high office upon a platform of lies
before the whole world
and have not the decency to blush bright crimson.
they are reprehensible.
they are repulsive.
they are repellent.
they are repelicans . . . .
Oh (slaps forehead), I get it now. It is REPEL-ican, not re-PELICAN.
Got it.
Lately . . .Conservative is the all and end all of the current ills of the world . . . denied a defense . . .conservatives take the flaggalation . . .because they understand the small mindedness of liberals and forgive them.
yeah-ya
15 billion dollars in debt, half of that for the wars, the oil industry reaps added profit because of the instability in the oil market - and they still get a nice fat piece of corporate welfare
You fucking conservatives don't see anything wrong with that?
NBC just yesterday aired a poll indicating the repelicans think that they are conservative at something like 60% - and they haven't the guts to end corporate welfare to an industry reaping hundreds of billions every single year?
wtf?
and you think I want your forgiveness?
piss off
I mean if youlove the idea of big government, lots of regulation and the government being in every aspect of your life maybe you should Take a good long look at North Korea, better yet maybe you should move there because obviously you can't handle freedom and want the government to control your life.
right . . .
that's why your pals are breaking the post office
i get it
it's because the post office runs your life . . .
yeah-ya
the repelican party is DONE
global warming is right outside every single American household
outside every single window
every single door
when suddenly it clicks
and it will
CLICK
you can say
byby
is that supposed to be poetry? Cause honestly I can make no sense out of what you just said...
it's plain English - you can't grasp what it says?
so obviously, if you can't understand what it says,
it must be poetry . . .
is English a second language or something?
...
...
tell me, cuz I'm curious -
Is John McCain really head of the
International Repelican Institute?
whats the shit in the bold?
the International Repelican Institute?
You haven't heard of them?
Here, let me help you with that:
the following links detail a group known as Otpor, an organization that helped generate social unrest and so over throw Milosevic. Otpor was funded by five main organizations, and the International Repelican Institute was one of them.
I don't know how much the ideology was driven by a desire to spread freedom and democracy, and how much by a simple desire to open up new markets, new demographics, for exploitation by western corporations, I'm sure both were significant motivators.
What is interesting is that there have apparently been some contacts between Otpor members and the Occupy Movement in the early stages. Not that I mind a whole lot - who really cares if they feel an allegiance to repelican ideology and sources of funding.
I don't mind at all.
I find them very
very
useful
Links:
SourceWatch - Otpor
see also:
Wiki on Otpor
see also:
JOHN McCAIN attempting to Overthrow Arab and Russian governments http://occupywallst.org/forum/john-mccain-attemptin-to-overthrow-arab-and-russia/
you are such a political hack. and you are destroying this movement with your partisan nonsense.
Me? You mean me?
that's just silly. Face the facts. The repelican party is the chief supporter of wall street -
Goldman Sux
Goldman Sachs gave $478,250 to federal candidates in the 05/06 election period through its political action committee - 35% to Democrats and 65% to Republicans. 112
I don't dispute the assertion of corruption exists on both sides, but clearly the contributions themselves indicate that the repelicans are twice as useful in the eyes of big business -
contributions of two to one show that without question
For every piece of crap you find on the interent, I can find one that says the opposite.
If it was 2-0, I would say ok. 2-1 mean both are guilty.
Wake up man. You posts arent helping with our PR effort for real change, and nonpartisan-ness. Your not helping us, you're hurting us.
i'm one voice
i have an opinion
it goes like this:
the repelicans are the biggest part of the problem, here is supporting evidence:
removal of the repelican party will make it much easier to bend the political establishment, you can see that in the voting records d vs r - the repelicans display much greater party discipline
it isn't my fault if you cannot conduct a reasonable analysis of the entity you want to take over.
I think your non-partisan bullshit is counter productive - the repelicans are weak - look at their advocacy of no tax on the one percent
that's our platform isn't it? or is it?
what is our platform? huh?
the repelican party is DONE
Keep up the nonsense, Zendog. You are destroying the credibility of the movement.
that's right
all by myself
the all powerful Zen
you should kneel when you say that
""""There are of course, more divisions among conservatives - there are social conservatives, economic conservatives, and what ever other kinds there may be, and among these various groups there may be valid ideas in one way shape or form.""""""
You are absolutely correct. Like myself, I am only Conservative in an economic sense. Beyond that, NO WAY. "Christian Conservatives", yes they want you to keep more of your money from the government, but they also want to dictate to you what you can spend it on and what YOUR OWN "values" should be.... sexually, recreationally, etc.
That does not change the fundamental and basic fact -
and that is that from the top they receive messages wrapped in deceit. They are manipulated on the basis of race, class, gender, religion, and fear"""""
Absolutely correct there too. But Liberals are just as guilty, especially when it comes to race. There is nobody on the planet more racist than a textbook Liberal. They have that feeling of superiority to all others and look DOWN upon them with "compassion" as if they aren't capable of everything a white liberal suburbanite is.
At least that's what Limbaugh says, and we all know he NEVER lies.
Typical response from a programmed drone. I take it you are a Liberal and agree with "affirmative action and such things. What makes you feel so far superior to other races to make yourself think they "need" you to be successful? Aren't they as intelligent and as capable as you?
So it is Limbaugh lies that inform your thinking.
Drone, eh?
Can libTs do anything other than attempt lame insults?
Two months of it is getting tiresome, just like libT rhetoric.
Libertarians just don't whine and cry to be told how to live their lives, and don't want someone else taking care of themselves. It is you Liberals and Christian Conservatives who feel the need to have everyone think and feel like you do and need the "security" of conformity to live.
I know.
They whine and cry about how everyone else lives their lives, and think everyone should do it their way, without admitting who runs the party.
Who steers it, and for what purpose.
Knowing this, is why I don't trust anything said by it's minions.
It looks pretty on the outside, but is dead cold and evil on the inside.
I never said I supported anyone "in the party", I believe in the ideology. It sure beats needing the government or some old black storybook to dictate what "values" I should have and what I do with my own mind, body, and money.
The ideology IS created by the party.
No it isn't. The party is created around the ideology
That's putting the cart before the horse.
You do know who one of the founders is?
You do know who the movers and shakers behind the scenes are?
I hate to say it, but in some ways I am beginning to suspect there may be a certain truth to that.
"I AM NOT AFRAID."
On the contrary. This ridicules post just confirms your fear.
and I'll fly mine on yours.
ZenDog,
I think Brett had to go nite nite it was getting past his bed time and his mommy was calling. Too bad, it was just going to get fun and then he has to run off.
I hope he answers my questions below. I can't wait to have those jewels of wisdom emanating out of his keyboard into our minds. Whew Ha. I just want to know WTF he thinks about as he bites into us for getting the facts straight. I would really like to see his facts so we can know WTF he's thinking. Where are his facts?
Anyway, this message needs to be heard. Good Thread! The conservatives, like Brett, are actively trying to destroy our movement. It burns him up to see this thread and that's a good sign. We got their attention. All they can do now is try to slime us. They have no argument and the facts are clearly on our side.
But, let's see, if Brett surprises us with his enlightenment. Just don't get your hopes up, this isn't fantasy island. : )
Good to see you 'round ZenDog!
keep the faith man
Does Brett Decker have a real brain? Why does Brett Decker spend all of his time trolling through these threads? Who does this Brett Decker think he is?Does Brett Decker believe he's Superman? Does Brett Decker lead another movement which opposes OWS? What is Brett Decker's purpose here?
Hmmmm, just pondering these thoughts, nothing better to do......hum de dum..........de da day.........la ti da...........hmmmmmm..................hum de dum.........de la di la day........................................
Oh Brett, what was that? You say some thing ???
Helloooooooo !!!
Too much time on your hands huh? Was that a reply or were you creating a website? With all that BS you posted,I've come away with the understanding you meant to flip me off but beyond that it's all just mental masturbation. Go ahead and plant whatever flag you want wherever you want. It doesn't change the facts,you still don't know WTF you're talking about. Sorry,no pics or links just text.
you said the forum post was incontrovertible evidence of fear
I have provided you with overwhelming evidence to the contrary
Further, the methodology laid out in the OP, that of using linguistic terms that appear to indicate one thing while hiding some other intent, is clearly laid out as bedrock repelican strategy, right here:
On Polster Frank Luntz
see also:
They have been doing it for some time.
I've been watching
You've not demonstrated you really know what a Conservative is. You've demonstrated that you think a Republican and a Conservative are one and the same and that you fear and loathe them so much that you continue to post negative opinions based on a flawed understanding and misinformation. This just shows willful ignorance. Apparently you dislike Liberals also I've read. So if you can't seem to side with the Left or Right that must mean you are an "Independent". Maybe you should post about a subject you know something about.
Just stating my observations. If you are suggesting that there are conservatives who are not happy with the present leadership or it's methods of divisiveness, then I suggest that they need to be a bit more vocal.
The repelican party seems to have a corner on the whole conservative dialog - that is not my fault.
I'm not conservative.
Here chew on that -
and then compare
It seems Brett Decker just came here to throw rocks. He has no opinion to share, let alone any facts to back up an opinion even if he had one.
What a waste he's been here. He must have something better to do with his time. Maybe that's why he ran away and it wasn't mommy calling. Just a thought!
I think it was NBC reported this evening that repelicans consider themselves conservative by something like 60%
And you do, dear Brett!
Shall we kneel and praise you!!!
You can fit more in that big ego of yours can't you, Brett?
Throwing some of your own rocks I see. My opinion was there in text,or do you only assimilate pictures in crayon?
I'm a Conservative,I know what it means to be one. I know the difference between a RINO and a Conservative Republican. Those are the facts. You wankers are operating on a diet of propaganda and Progressive indoctrination. I understand your dysfunction,I except it. I have only come here to maybe,possibly find an open Liberal mind to influence with the truth instead of the propaganda and bullshit that is so deeply entrenched.
No offense was intended,but only redeemed and redistributed in kind when received.
Wow, thanks for clarity, I guess. I'm sure it must seem more clear to you. Yes, this is some sort of dysfunction except that it is a longer process than just propagating information through the usual channels even as wide as they are. But if you know where your wankers are then your operational diet could be more indoctrinational. I, too, likewise, understand your possible dysfunction.
I think it will hit you squarely between the eyes when you read this: Open ultra-conservative minds entrenched so deeply in bullshit, can only be assimilated in crayon pictures. Brett is a special expert with this particular kind of work.
THE PUZZLER
Cute.
Why thank you. My pleasure. We all need to lighten up sometimes. : )
What was your brilliant point Brett?
Did you have one or is it that you could not form one for us simpleminded folks here?
Let's here it and please site your sources like a big boy so we check if your like most conservatives, entitled to both their own facts and own opinions, the best of both worlds.
If you don't respond that would speak more loudly than any of your concocted misguided words could here.
Ready set...........where r u Brett? Wher di go?
Since you've interjected yourself into this back and forth that already has terminated,I'll just task you to go back and read mine and Zendog's posts to gain a perspective.
I will give you a simple summation however.
I'm a Conservative,Zendog is not and professes to know what a Conservative believes while continually conjoining Republicans with Conservatives in a continual Tour de Force of ignorance. I was just trying to set him straight,to no avail.
You are obviously a Liberal/Leftist/Marxist/Socialist/Anarchist or whatever and you seem to have an ax to grind also. Satisfied?
Sounds like label soup to me. I'm not so sure we fit all so nice so and neatly in these labels. There's an inherent danger to generalize too much.
So, just so I understand, your opinion is not clear, and so I will ask you, is a conservative a republican? Or not? (This is what I thought)
Not to get ahead of you, but are you like some I know who call some republicans RINOs, that is republican in name only?
Maybe your an ultra-conservative?
Also, aren't some libertarians really republican when they vote since many times there is no Libertarian candidate?
Answering these questions can help. But I think what's lacking here is your not really proposing anything. Your just criticizing Zen for his position which he made well. We do know these conservative republicans by the positions that they take or don't take.
Is it something more specific that your restless about? (You do seem somewhat stressed, many that's why you seem to be in an attack mode)
We come to learn, and we never know from what angle it will come. Maybe it's you, you can enlighten us. Go for it. (But try to curb that rough language plz)
" is a conservative a republican? " Not necessarily so.
RINO: Republican In Name Only. Romney,Huntsman,Rove,Bush,McCain.
I could be considered a so-called "ultra Conservative".
" aren't some libertarians really republican when they vote since many times there is no Libertarian candidate?"
Yes.
I'm not proposing anything just stating that people posting on this site who profess to know what a Conservative believes in or thinks or stands for are very wrong. When someone corrects them maybe they could open up a little and perhaps consider the opinions of real Conservatives.
Correct,I'm just criticizing Zendog for posting what is not true.
Much like you I want to correct disinformation as I see it.
I just want to let you and any other Liberal or Progressive that Conservative's aren't what you portray them to be. You and I are diametrically opposed on many,many fundamental issues but at least let's understand what defines a Liberal ideologist and a Conservative ideologist.
To really learn about the Conservative movement/ideology ACTUALLY listen to Mark Levin,Rush Limbaugh,Sean Hannity. Read "Liberty and Tyranny" by Mark Levine. Learn more about Ronald Reagan,listen to his speeches.
Just so you know what you are dissing,instead of shooting in the dark.
Well, you see that's where assumptions can get you in trouble. I do listen although not lately Rush Limbaugh. I catch Sean Hannity & O'Lielly to see what spin they are putting on the political scene. Their a commentators like Limbaugh which gives both of them the liberty to speak their mind and go loose with the facts, and lie (because commentators can't lie, it's opinion). But none of those three adhere to the facts, in fact, many times they have been caught lying. ANd you know Rush always says he's not a racist, but he is just that. I have learned some things in my experience, and one of those is people who lie usually say over and over that their telling the truth, to compensate for the lie their about to give. Just a hint.
Anyway, I follow the conservatives to see what their saying, what their talking points are, what subject are they going to hammer on until they strike gold. That stuff. I use many sources, some objective, some left, and some right. This way I really know what's going down. You should do the same or your really coping out and doing the narrative gig. If you want to be a robotron that do the narrative but just remember you won't have your own opinion. We will find you instead in lock step with Rush Limbaugh. ANd that's truly sad, that pig is one big reason our politics is so divisive. These narratives can be dangerous. The right wing radical groups operate heavily saturated in them.
Anyway, good luck, if you open your mind solely to the truth you'll make just fine. The truth is the hard part. I've paid a high price for mine.
I don't believe you really listen otherwise you couldn't in all honesty say Rush is a racist (Rush is not a racist),pig or blame him for making politics "divisive". Politics have been divisive since the birth of this nation. Rush only came along in 1988.
You can't accuse me of a close mind after the Leftist rhetoric in this last reply of yours. You are not open minded and your truth is not THE truth but merely what gives you your comfort. These Conservative radio shows I've mentioned are not in the biz to lie but are Conservative opinion and fact based. If you voted for Obama and are still going to vote for him in 2012 then you've no ground to call higher.
Let's agree to disagree.
Well...that is very ZEN of you DOG.
"sabotage...discredit...competition for power...there may be valid ideas...wrapped in deceit...manipulated...race, class, gender, religion, and fear...AFRAID...no excuse"
Propaganda much?
I guess that the liberals are serving milk and cookies in the tent with the giant peace sign painted on it. FREE HUGS??
yeah-ya
I'm not a very huggie kinda guy . . .
not big on m&ms either - too much sugar coating
Smaller FEDERAL government, yes.
The IDEA was keeping the power with the PEOPLE, where it came from.
Both parties talk a good line, but neither deliver.
Separation of Powers, 9th and 10th amendments, adherence to Constitutional limits on power, non-interventionist foreign policy.
There is no proof either party, or any branch of government has done anything to demonstrate that their oaths of office mean a goddamn thing.
Fuck your divisiveness, Zen Dog. It alienates half of your potential supporters, and misinforms the rest.
I can't help it if the top of the pyramid is populated by liars and thieves. It isn't my fault that they have chosen to twist and manipulate sound ideas into practical solutions that collectively fuck us all. I had nothing to do with it.
As a practical matter, you cannot have government in a situation where it has less power and authority than even the smallest of empires among the governed - that isn't governance, not by the people, not by the government.
That is corporatocracy.
I don't disagree with what you've written.
But the real power is with the people. The only reason the criminals, liars and thieves occupy the top of the hierarchies, is because we have bought the line that governance means hierarchy. IT DOES NOT.
In America, we aren't supposed to have kings and queens. Because WE ARE ALL kings and queens. Endowed with every lick of power over one's life as is possible.
But instead we put up rulers who talk a good game, but could give a FLYING FUCK, for the rest of us. That they have sold us on their religion of pyramid governance, and provided every incentive and impetus to pack the government with those who SEEK power.
George Washington didn't even WANT to be president. Our founders were very clear that if power is not rigorously scrutinized and separated and restricted and transparent and full-stop FORBIDDEN to do certain things, we're fucked.
Well, we're fucked. And more of the same top-down shit won't solve a thing. Not with regards to our monetary system, our financial regulations, our regulatory regimes, our emergency management, our education, our personal safety, our privacy, our media, our foreign policy, NOTHING.
Sorry but until we decide to be fully human beings and start refactoring this system from the bottom up, we have zero chances of anything but the same old shit, only worse.
I'm not sure that a horizontal system of management can work in disaster relief - I would have to see it in action and consistently out performing other options.
I haven't seen any studies - but I'll bet emergency management will be one of the top growth fields of this century -
Emergency management in colonial times was done at the local level, and everyone was expected to contribute. Ben Franklin was the early pioneer in emergency management, and by necessity it was composed of local volunteers. Even though most emergency response is still organized locally and generally not composed of volunteers, we have strayed from our roots.
This was apparent when firefighters from all over descended on the wildfires in Texas recently, only to be told that FEMA was taking care of hiring, turning away hundreds of qualified responders and their equipment at the same time the fires continued to burn out of control. http://www.gonzalescannon.com/node/6410
How we could have gotten things so upside-down, I don't know. The Feds should be the least relevant in these situations, yet we bow down to the capstone again and again.
[Removed]
Except for the half of the country that sees things differently than you. You are afraid Zendog. Afraid that someone has more than you. Greedy materialists like yourself, seek to steal from others, through the government, because you believe you are entitled to it. Your entitlements are provided by a democratic party that want nothing but your vote. So they give the masses a few bones, and the masses keep coming to the trough to feed on other people's labor. This kind of greed perpetuates and perpetuates itself, until the system can no longer stand. This is where we are today.
yeah-ya
I'm trembling
Very impressive Zenmutt
well thanks
I didn't know you were a fan of good poetry
or broken toys
then again
it doesn't seem we've met
Zendog, you are dumber than the average occupier, what's wrong? Did you flunk out of high school.
bwa hahaha
nice. That is the typical repelican method of refuting the truth.
I'm sure you can find more mud. After all, you are surrounded by bull shit.
Mr Dog, i don't see the relationship between mud and bull shit. Please get some help, there are many clinics out there that can help people like you.
um, they are both dark? wet?
completely interchangeable within the repelican strategy of obfuscation and deceit?
You people are funny.
that's right, we are
so are you