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Forum Post: On Civil Disobedience and Direct Action

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 12, 2011, 9:38 a.m. EST by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

King spoke of creating tension in communities that refused to negotiate.

In many ways the injustice that OWS intrinsically opposes is beyond the scope of any single community -

like the Tar Sands Oil Pipeline, or the proposed downsizing of the postal labor force - two issues OWS Burlington Vermont has and is highlighting.

We should expect, and we do experience, that in many communities there are those in positions of power who do sympathize with our movement and who will provide whatever assistance they can - even if they cannot publicly do so.

Creating tension in such communities must be carefully thought out - and may in fact harm the movement if it is not.

The idea is to draw people in - not push them away - regardless of their station in life or politics.

This movement is already having an impact.

This movement is going to do so much more.

35 Comments

35 Comments


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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (34989) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.

http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb

[-] 2 points by mandodod (144) 2 years ago

I think the 99% is not a correct term. Here in So Cal, I notice thousands of boats in local marinas. Thousands of nice cars. A zillion Federal jobs. Many folks happy. Many ordinary folks out shopping. Lots of hi end shopping centers full of people. Folks still in resturants. Nice resturants full on the weekends. When you get down to it, most folks are still working in America. And people will still come up with great ideas and develop new thing like the Iphone 4S. A person can still open a chain of hot dog carts and make money. That is what I love about America. We should never put down folks who have a great idea like Jack In the Box and they get rich because they worked very hard. That is the cool American way.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

This is a fantastic point and one we should all keep in mind. At any one time, polls show 40 - 60% of Americans support the movement so let's be careful not to alienate them either through our words or actions.

I'd give this post a hundred up votes if that were possible. So important. Please spread the word of this post far and wide and ask others to do the same!

[-] -1 points by DependentClass (19) 2 years ago

40-60% support the "99%"? Pretty funny.

[-] -1 points by Jimboiam (812) 2 years ago

Make sure you donate another dollar commie.

[-] 1 points by LoverNotAFighter (-6) 1 year ago

"We should expect, and we do experience, that in many communities there are those in positions of power who do sympathize with our movement and who will provide whatever assistance they can - even if they cannot publicly do so."

No, we should not expect this. That's the whole point of Occupy, that those in power are not helping us. If representatives helped the people, then we wouldn't need Occupy at all.

This sounds like some type of pro-political anti-anarchic propaganda.

[-] 2 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

that discards the fact that we are all human, that as citizens we all have an investment in the outcome, or that those within the infrastructure may prove not only useful, but valuable contributors.

I believe it was some anarchist related group that was, not long ago, calling for insiders to come forward en masse . . .

[-] 1 points by desklamp (2) 2 years ago

On the Duty of Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau

[1849, original title: Resistance to Civil Government]

english text http://www.multiupload.com/M044P3TJZ7


mp3 audio 1 hour male voice http://www.multiupload.com/EL37HM8H1H


mp3 audio 54 minutes female voice http://www.multiupload.com/7LBG7NFVQO


excerpt How does it become a man to behave toward the American government today? I answer, that he cannot without disgrace be associated with it. I cannot for an instant recognize that political organization as my government which is the slave's government also.

I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which the will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient. The objections which have been brought against a standing army, and they are many and weighty, and deserve to prevail, may also at last be brought against a standing government. The standing army is only an arm of the standing government. The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it. Witness the present Mexican war, the work of comparatively a few individuals using the standing government as their tool; for in the outset, the people would not have consented to this measure.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

The government itself, which is only the mode which the people have chosen to execute their will, is equally liable to be abused and perverted before the people can act through it.

Witness the present budget debate . . .

[-] 1 points by DiogenesTruth (108) 2 years ago

Try voting

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I have, and plan to continue to

  • vote

and I will never vote repelican again

[-] 1 points by LoverNotAFighter (-6) 1 year ago

Why did you vote for them in the first place? You voted Bush... figures.

[-] 0 points by shooz (17725) 1 year ago

About those Koch brothers spreading Ayn Rand libe(R)tarianism?

You keep avoiding issues.

You always have.

You can start the logical fallacies and insults now.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

I would never ever bump a post.

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

the goal of a civil resister is to provoke a response.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 1 year ago

and an artist concerned primarily with conflict considers carefully every brush stroke - for when the canvass is society itself each pigment has a cost and a single stroke may ripple for decades . . .

dw

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by WooHoo (15) 2 years ago

Hahaha!

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 2 years ago

Hahaha!!!

[-] -1 points by DependentClass (19) 2 years ago

Yes, leave the Post Office alone. Email is just a fad. LOL

Fight the tar sands pipeline to the U.S. It's much better if they just build one to Vancouver and then export the oil to China.

The "movement" sounds more like the kind of "movement" that ends up in the toilet every day.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

you sound like another one of those fools who would privatize every single function of government - including the military.

scumbags

[-] 0 points by DependentClass (19) 2 years ago

Very funny. No, I wouldn't do that, but I would ask the Post Office to join the 21st century before it's over. Do you work there or something? Why else would you want mailmen muttering about the country with empty bags? Government does a really bad job of adapting to change. Pick something else to defend. Picking the Post Office only underscores this typical failing.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
  1. Congress legislated the Postal Service set aside money for future retirement of postal workers,

  2. there has been an overpayment - estimates range from between 6 and 60 BILLION dollars

  3. it is unknown how much of the decline in postal revenue is the result of

    • changes in consumer habit

    • recession

    • how much of a bounce back the Postal Service may see in revenue once the recession ends

I would also point out that in small communities the Post Office becomes a central part of the social fabric

  • not to mention that it will be nice to be able to send mail if the power goes out indefinitely
[-] 0 points by DependentClass (19) 2 years ago

Email. Ever heard of it? LOL Volumes are falling dramatically. I know it's hard for government to come to terms with change, but holy shit, it's email. It is too known what's happening. Everyone else gets it, it's the Post Office for whom it's a mystery.

We don't run the Post Office as a gathering spot for locals to shoot the shit. We run it to deliver mail, something there's a lot less of because of email.

So, we should maintain a giant army of mailmen as a ready reserve in case the power goes out? LOL Now I KNOW you work there. LOL.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

We don't run the Post Office as a gathering spot for locals to shoot the shit. We run it to deliver mail, something there's a lot less of because of email.

Actually the Post Office is self supporting through the cost of stamps.

And I'm sick of the process of privatization of every single function of government

I"m sick of it

Unless or until we can establish that this is not in fact another act of sabotage

I say we should leave it as it is -

not to mention the plain and irrefutable fact that these are jobs you are talking about - with no plans to replace them in the job market.

you must really be stupid.

[-] 0 points by DependentClass (19) 2 years ago

You're the one that touted the Post Office as "central part of the social fabric". I'm the one that tried to interject the reality that, in fact, it's to deliver mail.

No, unless and until we know that VOLUMES are coming back, we act as though email presents a permanent change and begin the process of adapting. Government is stunningly bad at adapting to change. The Post Office is a perfect example.

Jobs without merit do us no good. Progress is good.

And you must work for government. That or not be one of those that pays for it.

[-] 1 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Listen up, fool. The Postal Service Pays For Itself. It does this through fees it charges to post stuff. Your taxes don't support it.

This is not the time to downsize the Postal Service - not when it means cutting between 120,000 and 280,000 American workers and an economy barely struggling to hang on as it is.

fuck you

[-] 0 points by DependentClass (19) 2 years ago

Sorry, I should know how sensitive you mailmen are about email. Maybe they can start a giant Post Office museum that some of you can work at. They can have a special exhibit on the economic benefits of keeping huge numbers of people in obsolete jobs. What happened to those buggy whip people, well, that's the last time we let progress take away perfectly good jobs in this country. LOL. What a fool.

Progress is good anytime we can get it.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 2 years ago

Don't you just LOVE it when they have to resort to four letter words?

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Ya know - back in the day . . . .

when they were building the interstate, some engineer wanted to blast the top off of Camel's Hump and pave over the entire spine of the Green Mountains.

No doubt, it was all in the name of progress.

Fortunately, better sense prevailed.

why don' t you go progress yourself right off a cliff with the rest of the lemmings?

[-] 0 points by DependentClass (19) 2 years ago

Yeah, dialing back the Post Office because of email is a real hard decision. Sure, some progress just isn't the right kind of progress. LOL

There's a painting in the Belvedere castle in Vienna Austria that captures it perfectly. It's a couple reading about the train coming through. They look scared. The train would threaten their jobs as "carters", people that cart goods from town to town. Too bad they didn't have a government to protect their jobs at everyone else's expense forever too.

Good luck with the Post Office museum.

[-] 0 points by ZenDog (13196) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

Too bad they didn't have a government to protect their jobs at everyone else's expense forever too.

fuckyou scumbag.

The government doesn't protect the Post Office - they drain 5 billion dollars from it's revenue every year.

There is currently an overpayment due to the Postal Service, estimated at between 6 and 60 BILLION dollars.

  • why don' t you go progress yourself right off a cliff with the rest of the lemmings?
[-] -1 points by stevo (314) 2 years ago

Nope. Your more insignificant by the day. America tired of smelly hippies, creating shantytowns around the country. Enjoy freezing your ass off in a tent in January moron.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I would say that is wishful thinking. not all Americans are tired, and some have not even begun to be riled.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 2 years ago

Thanks!  There's another dollar for Occupy Wall Street.  Trolldom has been monetized.  This is fun :) http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-have-monetized-trolldom-for-the-benefit-of-the-/#comment-223231 . Care to donate? Just visit homepage at www.occupywallst.org .

[-] 0 points by Jimboiam (812) 2 years ago

This is so much fun spending your money. Even though i know you aren't serious, about donating, i could certainly bankrupt you in a couple days unless your using mommy's credit card.