Forum Post: ~~ Action Alert: Stop the End Run On The KeyStone XL PipeLine
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 16, 2011, 7:29 p.m. EST by ZenDogTroll
(13032)
from South Burlington, VT
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
NBC reported this evening that Congress is considering proposals to extend unemployment compensation by two months. In exchange for repelican cooperation on this issue, repelicans want to expedite the KeyStone XL Pipeline.
The objections to the KeyStone XL are many, and include charges of corruption between the developers and the State Department in awarding environmental impact studies to a company too close to the developers themselves.
The New York Times outlines some of the debate around this project with links to more information.
What follows is an email I received earlier today from Credo Action Network, and the links urging action take you to a page where you can plug in your zip code and they provide you with numbers to call to voice your opposition.
The text of the email:
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Senate Democrats could be on the verge of caving on the Keystone XL end run as soon as today.
When House Republicans passed their payroll tax cut extension bill on Tuesday which included language to force a decision on the Keystone XL pipeline, Senator Harry Reid said "It was dead before it got to the Senate."
But despite that, by late yesterday, The Hill was reporting that a deal, potentially involving the Keystone end run, was in the works as Senators try to return home for the holidays by this weekend.1
There is no excuse, at all, for Democrats to cave to Republican hostage taking and jam through approval of a project that will be "essentially game over" for the climate. Democrats must oppose this project, and this is a moment to call your [Senators] and let them know.
The Republicans' are so indentured to oil companies, they are literally willing to play chicken with the Democrats with government shutdown on the line, to force giveaways to polluters.
And too often, Democrats blink first. According to The Hill, Sen. Max Baucaus said Keystone XL was still in play:
"There's momentum building toward a comprehensive agreement, but there are still a lot of pieces out there," Baucus said.
He added that language expediting the Keystone XL oil sands pipeline, included in the House-passed payroll-tax bill, is still in the mix.
To his credit, President Obama issued a veto threat for the House bill, and said he would "reject," — though not veto — the Keystone provision specifically.
Now, this is a test of the resolve of President Obama and Harry Reid.
Republicans say they want to create jobs — but the only independent review of the Keystone XL Pipeline found that it would create few permanent jobs, and cost more jobs than it would create.2
Democrats need to stand up to Republican hostage taking, and reject any deal that forces a decision on the disastrous Keystone XL Pipeline.
Please call [your Senators] now:
http://act.credoaction.com/call/report/signup.html?cp_id=185
Thank you for fighting Keystone XL.
Elijah Zarlin, Campaign Manager CREDO Action from Working Assets
- "Lawmakers grow confident deal will be reached by weekend," The Hill, December 15, 2011
- "Cornell Global Labor Institute Study Finds Keystone XL Pipeline Will Create Few Jobs," Tar Sands Action, September 28, 2011 Take action now!
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This is a link to a second Forum Post on this issue, titled Keystone Pipeline a Proven Environmental Threat posted by paulg5
Thanks paulg!
And someone else has provided a link to TheOilDrum.com which may be an interesting resource.
I was attempting to pull up this link: -pipeline-caught-in-death-spiral-of-rising-costs but my dial-up connection is overwhelmed . . ..
Update:
A letter from Senator Leahy:
Dear Mr. Winter:
Knowing of your interest in the environment, I wanted to share with you a statement that I made regarding the Keystone XL provision that has been attached to the payroll tax break extension bill. This policy rider to H.R. 3630, the Middle Class Tax Relief and Job Creation Act of 2011, would force Presidential approval of the pipeline, circumventing the vital environmental review process. Additionally, as a Nation we should be promoting job creation in sustainable energy sources, not polluting projects that will only yield short term jobs. The full text of my statement is available here http://leahy.senate.gov/press/press_releases/release/?id=fdc47ebf-ff53- 4702-9d5f-d52165fc6c29 .
You can also read the letters that I have written to the State Department over the last year and, most recently, a letter I sent to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid urging him to oppose a legislative rubber stamp of approval for the Keystone XL pipeline. The letters are on my website http://leahy.senate.gov/issues_and_legislation/issues/issue/?id=9f53eb5 5-3631-4607-8ea3-f67a325a5f0a .
Sincerely,
PATRICK LEAHY United States Senator
Update: December 24
From: Credo Action Alert
Congress has approved a two-month payroll tax and unemployment extension bill that forces a decision on the Keystone XL Pipeline, and by all accounts President Obama will sign it.
That means Republicans have gotten their wish — President Obama will have 60 days to decide on Keystone XL. And we have 60 days to make sure he does not approve it.
Tell President Obama: Reject the Keystone XL Pipeline. Click here to sign the petition.
Everyone needs to call to take action on this issue. This is real action and we need it to get the repugs from holding our environment hostage or we get a tax hike. This is the height of hypocrisy for the repugs. Of course, they have had decades of practice. Starting with Mr. Trickle Down Reagan.
Keystone XL is not dead yet. Make sure it does die.
http://action.sierraclub.org/site/R?i=1EFmGEqAQzzpBKLvtpSN-Q
Yep, sent it.
This thing needs to be stopped.
Absolutely has to be stopped dead. Thanks.
done, thanks
Any time.
Got to keep the drive alive. . . .Ehrm . . .To kill the pipeline that is.
I understood what you meant, yeahya
It sounds like alot of the content of this so called “Tar Sands Oil” is toxic waste material in which The seporation of the oil from the sand and other materials happens hear in the US. So where does the oil saturated sand go after the seporation, back to Canada? I haven't read anything about how the disposal of this material will be handeled. The Wikipedia Discription of Athabasca oil sands really enlightens me on the Marcellus shale ramp up in PA. I guess they'll need all the natural gas they can get because so much is used in the oil sands extraction process Wikipedia Athabasca oil sands The recovered bitumen froth needs to be cleaned to reject the contained solids and water to meet the requirement of downstream upgrading processes. Depending on the bitumen content in the ore, between 90 and 100% of the bitumen can be recovered using modern hot water extraction techniques. After oil extraction, the spent sand and other materials are then returned to the mine, which is eventually reclaimed. More recently, in situ methods like steam-assisted gravity-drainage (SAGD) and cyclic steam stimulation (CSS) have been developed to extract bitumen from deep deposits by injecting steam to heat the sands and reduce the bitumen viscosity so that it can be pumped out like conventional crude oil. The standard extraction process requires huge amounts of natural gas. Currently, the oil sands industry uses about 4% of the Western Canada Sedimentary Basin natural gas production. By 2015, this may increase 2.5 fold.
If we took a going to the moon style approach to alternative energy, it seems like in ten years we should have a solution.
Hi Zen, Senator Reid's voice mail full. Sent email. Will call again later. Best Regards, Nevada
That assClown Reid is about the last person I would ever want to email
Cool. Thanks Nevada.
Harry's senile. But he is into a shady deal if it involves land.
can you prove that?
because if you can't,
Perhaps the Senator will sue you for defamation?
Hahahahahahahaha.
you need to refill your scrip for neural leptics . . .
I need some of that good acid you have.
I haven't done any drugs in forever. On the contrary. The fact that I may be perma.trippin' I'll blame on the likes of Dr. Groder
Great page. I really havn't dug into this yet but it's crawling around on my radar. My two primary questions are:
Why the hell does the oil have to go all the way to Texas? Is the stinking oil industry at least willing to pay for it themselves? ALL OF IT?
The Canadians are not willing to spend money for the studies, SO, the citizens for sure get to eat the cost of paying some member of the club 2 megs to divide up and spit out some data to persuade one way or the other. I do believe that money has been appropriated already.
I don't know about that. Who pays for construction is a legitimate question.
I know it runs through a large wetland in the north west, and there are questions regarding the relationship between the State dept and the awarding of the environmental study which went to a company affiliated with or controlled by the company drilling the oil.
I know that there are those who claim the emissions related to production far outweigh any other process.
I know there are those who insist that if this pipeline goes through, it will be game over as far as keeping carbon emissions in check.
And I know one NASA scientist is opposed to the project:
Hansen - NASA - Scientist - Arrested
I do believe that environmentally sensitive areas like wetlands in general, should be left alone. A spill there would be incredibly difficult to clean up.
And if the study was done by a close affiliation, it's worthless.
yes it would.
And if I understand the process correctly, a lot of the sands will remain in the product that is piped - which means the inside of the pipe will get sandblasted from the inside.
I've done a bit of sandblasting. It's incredibly efficient at removing material.
I'll take a wild guess why they want the oil piped to Texas. Tax breaks. If that's not it, they are too cheap to build a refinery anywhere near the source. Maybe, it's a little of both.
1) an tar sand pipeline from canada to a refinery in Illinois already exists
2) this pipeline has 6500 HORSEPOWER electric motor driven pumps.... every 10? miles and it is nothing like the Alaskan Pipeline, they are multi layered and have natural gas burning inside to keep the tar sands pump-able..... major "infrastructure" or "internal improvements"
3)when congressmen told the lying fucking Canuck oil bastards to agree that the US would get the tar sands in writing, the canucks flat out refused
4)They want the pipeline to our port as that is the cheapest way to get it to China who will refine it to make mostly plastic items
5)next step will be the Chinese putting a military base in Canada
6) the jobs created are few and quite temporary
Fuck Canada and China, let them ship their shit out of their own ports or send it to Illinois to be refined. Hell, Canada build your own refinery.
10) tar sands readily and efficiently coverts, with virtually zero emissions, start to finish at the tail pipe, into synthetic gas and slag to pave roads via PA gasification. It would seem this makes too much sense and would be good for our environment.
Even though I'd normally be all for it because Zendog is against it, this is a bad idea and it shouldn't happen, the money trail sucks and so does the intent. You guys really should have watched the congressional hearings on this, it made me mad enough to clean all the iron.
A die-hard opponent of OWS who seems willing to admit that a right wing proposal is not only a bad idea but also an outright lie and spills dirt on the issue?
I have no idea what your reply is intended to mean. Plain direct English please?
The jury is still out but you just gained some potential free thinker points. I respect free thinkers. Even if we almost never agree.
I wasn't aware we had any disagreement. They aren't much fun if only one of us knows about them. I do quite a bit in alternative energy and no area 51 unity plus bs, which one day somebody may push something through.
You have no idea how insulting it is to many in the field, that Obama and DC led the American people down the path of Hybrid electric this and that KNOWING full well all the rare earth goodies to make them are in China and they won't sell anything but finished products.
However, the DC mafia has all but shut down even free offers from privately owned individuals to build zero emissions Plasma Arc Plants and supply electricity for lower costs, well, because they don't own it as far as I know at this time.
And if you watched while the Bush gang wrapped up conventional gasification plants on the American continents and then teamed up with corporate ag to really break it off in the farmers whose "litter" they contractually own and prevent farmers from gasifying their own, ya'd be pissed too. However, I'm far from right wing, and equally far from left wing.
Neither side makes sense and both have been in cahoots for as long as I can recall. They have been on the alternative energy screwing we've all be getting just as they have all been perpetuating all the wealth extraction machines in our economy.
DC corrupt dems and repubs both, almost without exception, make good money extracting wealth and even blatantly using insider trading to make their endeavors, risk free.
I might have your ID confused with another.
Hmmm, maybe, but I don't recall ever having any exchanges with you. Have a great week.
[Removed]
It certainly is confusing, isn't it. I'm tempted to suspect a certain amount of disinformation embedded in the post - maybe with the intent that it will be picked up, passed on, only to be refuted with facts and so discredit the opposition to the pipeline.
Or not. I dunno.
but I'm sure I ran across something indicating the President would consider the pipeline on the basis of several factors, including 'energy needs' of the country - which seems to imply that if it is being piped to Houston then either we consume it, or if shipped from Houston to China - it's a no go.
I realize seems to imply is a matter of perspective, has little bearing on something that is implied, and whatever may or may not be implied is not the same as something decided upon.
AT any rate, It does feel strange . . . .
Do you know into what tar sands refines?
It doesn't make gas or oil.
It is used in manufacturing of certain types of synthetic materials, mostly.
Now what has happened to our manufacturing base?
Who manufactures for the world?
If it was for the United States use, it would be sent to Illinois which is at less than 60% capacity and keeping up with demand.
Easy enough to check the facts. It's a screw job to help Canada get in bed with Asia and I am speculating about the BRIC becoming the BRICC. It wouldn't surprise me at all, and for many reasons.
If they truly intended all to be for the US, they would have been eager to agree, in writing, that the United States at least had first refusal of all through it, at reasonable market prices. They refused that from congress as well. bull shit.
However, if China needs it or even doesn't want it's financial slave, the US to have it, they have proven VERY capable of driving up raw materials prices as they did, not single-handedly, but, still did the biggest damage, to scrap metal prices earlier this century.
interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline
Excellent theory. But too early to tell. We'll see.
Wrap your head around 6500 horsepower pumping stations at 100 mile intervals. Multiply times 763 for 100% efficiency. Now times 10 because the stations will be at 10? mile intervals. I don't believe the tar sands contain that much energy if efficiently gasified as is comes out of the ground.
I don't have the numbers on how many BTU's it consumes firing the natural gas pipe heaters, I'd guess half of the energy to pump the crap making the whole proposition an even larger loss before it ever gets to the gulf. Add in the cost of the materials and labor to build it, which would be several billion.
Consider 4-250 million dollar PA gasifiers will supply NYC with heat and electricity for 30-40 years just by converting it's 2007 landfill contents.
It's just plain stupid and an asinine wrong path to take and solely for the purpose of enriching the already vulgarly wealthy. Let the Chinese grow that fungus crap earth conscious manufacturers are now using to replace petro plastics.
Oh wait, that's a problem for China since she can't even grow enough food to feed herself.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline
I've identified one weakness, and that is the presumption that anyone around here is so influential with the Occupy Movement that picking up a piece of disinformation and repeating it could do significant harm.
Then again, maybe someone is still attempting to sort all that out - which then begins a whole other theory . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline
"5% of the US's petroleum consumption" is misleading in that tar sands are not refined into fuel or oil.....nor does it mention that there are cleaner alternatives for most of the uses of tar sands.
There already exists a line into a functioning refinery in Illinois. I've seen it with my own eyes.
The writer also did not mention the pumping stations, the natural gas heaters, or the methods of construction of these heated sections of the pipeS.
I'm a certified pipe fitter and can take two stingers with large 1/4" fill rods, straddle a 36" pipe, and simultaneously burn in two fault free beads without a welding hood or my eyes open.
They need to have this pipeline stuck in their ass and congress and the admin know we don't need the tar sands and they also know China will end up with it and has been determined in detaching the dollar from the only thing which offers it any rebounding ability or slight stability in the shaky world economy, the price of a barrel of oil.
They have the currency strength to do it, although, the Chinese too has a financial house of cards perfectly poised to tumble. They've been toying with the world leveraged against all at 10:1 or more, and that h(y)en is about to come home and roost.
What they've been doing and are now feeling the inflationary results thereof, is selling for less than real world cost, advertising and lobbying like hell in order to make up for it in volume, all while sucking our manufacturing base and production jobs right out of working class America's futures and ways of living.
btw.... look on cspan.org for the hearings on this debacle, you'll realize many facts of which the wiki writer seems oblivious or ignorant.
no way.
a topic we agree on?
somebody just fukin shoot me
This is almost bad, huh?
That multiple encased pipeline is a bad idea all the way around. Good idea for a hand full of Canucks, Chinese and their personal indebted elected/bought servants on both sides of the aisle.
I am struggling to get past it.
But the pipeline? It's gotta get nixed.
I almost am of the opinion that when such people pitch congress, they should have to be under oath and expediently charged with perjury when they lie. You really missed some lying if you didn't watch the testimony and pitches.
The canucks and chinese have ducks on both sides of the aisle and quite a few people will be set for life it it passes.
Damn, hit me once with a couple million and I'm fine for a looooong time. But we're talking real and bigger money to more than just one or two club members AND landowners, many of which acquired those lands with seemingly peculiar timing.
I really actually like that idea.
a lot.
Well, if The Rule of Law was in place and we had a Constitutional Governance, with representatives closer to being the electoral vote of their constituents than the "elect me and I'll do what you want" only to find out they LIE and do what gets them in the money club, it could be that way and should be. Very few ever blatantly lied to congress in our nation's first 80 years, those who did, regretted it.
However, with the group of unaccountable liars and criminals, that likely consistent of a majority that start out being well intentioned good people, but, DC absolutely corrupted, this simply isn't possible.
They schedule these hearings and none of the allegedly subpenaed persons to testify even bring documents, reports, files, accounting books etc. They always respond, 'I'll get that to you soon' or 'we'll try to find out and let you know'.
Now having deposed and even propounded interrogatories upon persons even in crappy Article IV courts, served subpena instanter with duces tecum on attorneys, judges, court clerks, police officers, you name it, you'd be hard pressed finding a corrupt shylock judge who would tolerate such antics from even a litigant who they secretly or openly backed and were partial to for various reasons.
It's all a mockery from both sides of the aisle and all of them know it. I've seen very few get bent when people they summoned to appear showed up empty handed in order to perpetrate such a mockery. I'd name some that have and attempted to prosecute, but, it would serve this conversation no real good.
Hell, I've seen general sessions traffic court judges lock people away for far less disrespect and tomfoolery.
I never looked at it that way before.
I would note that during the hearings on Gulf War Syndrome, Congress did seem to be able to get to the bottom of the issue.
Well, high ethical standards or not, he isn't prosecuting anyone, not even our congress. I wrote about a high school coach that copped guilty to 5 of 6 counts, second time around, of plying 15-16 year old girls with PGA and Conv Hypnosis techniques, and got 4 years probation and isn't even on the offenders registry. Family publicly admits they bought his way out of the pen. Got zilch on that and a couple other things.
Naw.... most of them are bad eggs or controlled by bad eggs.
No reply link on your other post.
Look on Cspan, over 50 congressmen flat out accused him of perjury, obstructing and called for his resignation. You can watch them and see he changed his story and flat out lied a few times. He also has been refusing to produce subpenaed emails and documents, since February. He's covering something.
It is I think a systemic problem, one that must be addressed, failure to do so results in a lack of credibility, a lack of legitimacy, and produces the perception that the only recourse for the public as they seek redress is
vigilantism and the vendetta.
It cost real money to have a mere bench hearing in general sessions, I would hate to even think about calculating the money they've spent so far trying to get answers out of Holder, Corizine, Military brass, Paulson, Bernanke etc.
People should be damned angry to see what should be nearly a reverent respect for such hearings be mocked so lightly and congresspersons seemingly inept at having witnesses show up with documentation and such.
I am willing to bet that examinations of Holder are a complete waste. He canned a few lawyers under him after he was first appointed - can't recall the exact details, but the lawyers in question had cut some legal corners in going after Stevens of Alaska.
He seems to me to be . . . maybe not exactly by the book, but I'm sure he does have a high ethical standard.
That whole Fast and Furious thing began before he was appointed.
The conduct of the war on drugs has been . . . insane
there was an article in the NYT some years back -
three guys riding around back road Mexico - two feds and a Mexican.
It already sounds like a joke, right?
The Mexican was pointing out houses and providing details regarding activities taking place - the car had diplomatic plates, wasn't long before they had a convoy of Mexicans - armed to the teeth - following them.
The Mexicans put up a road block, and demanded the Mexican get out of teh car. The Feds refused to give him up. It was a genuine Mexican stand off. Lasted about an hour and a half.
Amazing no one got killed.
the lives of these two feds in Mexico were nothing but bargaining chips.
Our entire conduct of the war on drugs needs rethinking, and has for decades.
I don't know how the economics of it work - but if they can ship half a million barrels a day by pipe, that's a lot of revenue.
Seems like some serious sand blasting to me, too.
We have the worlds largest refinery in Texas.
Yes and yes!
Forward environmental change.
http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/keystone_sotu/?id=33678-4904244-%3Dxzka6x&t=7
Take action. See samples of how below.
183,361 signatures so far for Bernie Sanders petition as of 10:15am central time 01/15/2012
http://sanders.enews.senate.gov/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=2100081904.557411.411&gen=1&mailing_linkid=34578
The petition to save abandoned houses has 15 signatures. We picked one up at around 9:50pm 01/13/2012. Were just rolling right along.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Savingpeople-savinghomes-payingdowntheNationaldeficit/
Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.
http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb
Sierra Club has some good things to take part in as well. Set-up and ready for you to take part in. http://sierraclub.org/
Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.
http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb
Sierra Club helping out. Can you?
Sierra Club
Sierra Club
Share this alert with your friends: Share this page on FacebookShare this page on TwitterShare this page with other services Dear Dan,
Thank you for sending a message.
To ensure your message is heard, please take a moment to tell your friends, family, and colleagues about it. Just copy and paste the email message below into a new email! Dear Friends,
Send a message to President Obama to thank him for taking a stand against tar sands and to urge him to continue to say no to Keystone XL and dirty tar sands oil in the New Year. Despite the massive misinformation campaign launched recently by Big Oil and their cronies in Congress, President Obama’s State Department has said clearly that 60 days is not enough time to conduct the reviews necessary to safeguard human health and the environment against the dangers posed by this project. We want to thank him for continuing to stand up to Big Oil's dangerous agenda.
With your help, we can finally put an end to Keystone XL in 2012.
http://action.sierraclub.org/site/Advocacy?pagename=homepage&id=7375
Sarah Hodgdon Conservation Director Sierra Club
thanks
Trying to work with whatever comes my way. Hope it helps.
it cannot hurt, my brother, it cannot hurt.
signing now .. . .
Good deal. Now if we could get others to consider taking part like that.
For those of you just checking in.
Don't forget to petition the Justice Department to start prosecuting the economic criminals. There has to be accountability.
This is why we are here this is why you are needed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/
Share, circulate, educate, inspire.
See also people from all walks of life, from all over the political map "not" supporting a party or leader or group of leaders but "supporting an Ideal".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Bgqt1YYko
well thanks for sharing
Just trying to keep the drive alive. Push past the distractions, so to speak. While keeping an important post in front of our viewing audience.
I hear that
It may be fourth and long but I would not want to see us punting.
fuck that
Exactly! Go for it when you have been building momentum.
that fucking repelican party is gonna fold like a cheap suit
Unless they hang out at all of the voting stations buying votes.
I'd like to see them buy my vote
hehee
the fukers
I think it could be claimed as legitimate self defense ( I mean accident ) if they were to have tripped down a flight of stairs or two.
LoL!
Luckily there are no stairs outside my polling place - but there is a busy street.
I never heard that.
Check this out could be real good fun.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/irs-could-resellrent-foreclosed-properties/
This is why we are here this is why you are needed.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/inside-job-documentary/
Share, circulate, educate, inspire.
that movie is an eye opener
Another interesting post.
Thanks - I just updated it with the latest Credo link. It probably wasn't necessary - they probably have a redirect right on their website from the old one.
I never even checked.
Great update.
yep.
Almost - I had forgotten to take one small word out of the link:
But I did remember that I had to actually follow the link I received in email and change it - otherwise everyone would have been trying to sign the petition using my name rather than their own.
Which might have been interesting, but not very useful.
LOL.
Can you see it? After checking IP addresses, you are world wide.
LoL!
People will tend to think I am God or something!
In the little section where you can add your own comments, you can add: I shall smite thee.
The dominionists will tremble.
LoL!
or something like that.
And if we could all turn to Chapter 1, Verse 28 in the Book of Dog.
It works.
The Book of Dog
How interesting.
Um......it is god backwards and besides Job, John, Joshua, Eli and Enoch were taken. :D
You crack me up!
Speaking of Job - I have this theory - all that stuff that happened to him?
I think it was early research by the military industrial complex into bio-warfare. Of course, being stone age - or close to it - I'm sure they never would have seen themselves as an industrial endeavor at all.
And the story of King David and Uriah - sounds just like the Monica scandal.
Seriously - I think the practice of human engineering is really ancient.
You may be right. The art of poisoning goes back to before 4500 BCE. Job was written maybe 4th century BCE. There is a book that I aim to get written by Adrienne Mayor called Greek Fire, Poison Arrows & Scorpion Bombs: Biological and Warfare in the Ancient World.
I agree, people do not change. Technology changes.
That sounds like it could be a fascinating read - depending on how it is written.
I have one of her books. I cannot say what the other books are like. She tells you this is what we know and lets you know what she doesn't. It isn't "dry". There were periodic questions that I can see in a lecture from a prof but, when they translated to book form make me twitch. The first thing that pops into my head when I read that is, "No, this is the part where you tell me."
Excerpts from the Senator's statement:
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Yes they are trying to do the same old bullshit again.
They want to attach the pipeline acceptance/support rider to the payroll tax cut to get it approved. If they do, it should be line item vetoed. Demand it.
During the time from now till then. The public should be encouraged to shout for Hydrogen fuel/power implementation along with things like Geo-thermal power/heating/cooling. Get the public demanding True Green Power Implementation/development.
Inspire the Public while sending a message to Government and Corporations that we are done with lip service and the sustaining of the status-quo that is killing us.
Obama could turn out to be an ok prez, if the pipeline goes through. At least he could be better than the hillbilly peanut farmer!
the pipeline isn't happening
We'll see.
it ain't happenin I said.
Let it flow.
no
: )
Carter is highly underated as a president. Reagan did more to set the coarse of economic demise we have now than anyone. He faught to deregulate many industries allowing increased mergers and resulting in such powerfully large corporation that the power no longer belongs to the people, If small business is the heart of the American economy, then Reagan was a Heart Attack.
Carter was a disaster as a president. He's still a disaster as a private citizen
SMASH the KeyStone
there are over 600,000 oil pipelines in the USA.
and none of them are the KeyStone
there is no reason NOT to have the keystone pipeline unless you're the current presidnet and want to keep on killing the USA.
you are insane - these are tar sands -
you ever done any sandblasting?
That pipeline is apt to get sandblasted from the inside.
nothing dangerous about it
It WILL be built.
it might get half way, but I'll be surprised.
nothing dangerous about it - yeah-ya
it only runs through one of the largest wetlands in the U.S.
and when that pipe gets sandblasted from the inside it'll start leaking.
We had two oil leaks in that area of the country just this last summer. I guess you've forgotten.
600,000 miles of oil pipelines in the USA. no problems.
there were two significant oil pipeline problems just this last summer - right in the same area where this pipeline is proposed.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha. You're a real joker. Ever think of taking the stage as a comedian?
I'd like to head to DC with my pickup, and throw a chain around the statue of that oversized fuck, and skid it down Pennsylvania Ave.
Care for a road trip?
hehe
I'll go with you dog. We could get to know each other better. Hehe
bwa Hahaha
Hey there, Zen.....can you pull up this report? http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/globallaborinstitute/research/upload/GLI_KeystoneXL_Reportpdf-2.pdf
Excellent info.
Thanks.
More please!
I hope you don't mind but I copied the link and posted it on Twitter.
This is from the Wilderness Society
Exporting America's Heritage http://wilderness.org/content/exporting-americas-heritage
The report is located at the bottom of the page.
Thank you.
Your welcome.
well thank you.
oh, he said that already.
Ya!!
Nothing like a good old fashioned push to the top.
that's not a bad thing, is it?
never!
the repelican party is DONE!
o wait - what thread is this?
oh yeah . . .
; D
Both jobs need doing.
Yes they do.
yep
checking now - 1.16 mb
I can if I give it some time. Unless I get a phone call. : /
Good deal.
I hadn't taken the time to download. 1.16 mb is big.
Any promise that the price of gas will be reduce by this pipeline is unlikely. I was in protests in the 80s to prevent water from being taken from the Delaware river and pumped to an under construction nuclear power plant 30 miles away. The promise was that power bills would be reduced by as much as 40%, never happened folks, It's ALL political, IT'S ABOUT THEM!
You are correct. If the pricing of gas follows it's normal pattern it will soon be pushing the five dollar range so that it can settle back down to four dollars for awhile, before going on its next hike to claim the five dollar spot.
Cost has nothing to do with demand. It has everything to do with obscene profits. Just think if those profits had been dedicated to implementing Hydrogen fuel/power &/or Geo-thermal power/heating/cooling. The infrastructure is mostly there for big oil to take advantage of.
we're past peak oil - I don't think we will see $3.oo a gallon.
we're past peak oil production.
We'll never see gas drop below $3.00 again.
And here is a link to a sock puppet that claims the pipeline is already a done deal. We should investigate if this is so, and if so, how is it so, why is it so, and where is the weakness.
link here
smash the Keystone
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you are an idiot.
the price of gas at the pump isn't likely to ever drop below $3.00 again.
[Deleted]
you are dreaming
and we have no business fomenting bullshit in Venezuela.
We did that in Chile - when what we should have done is to have supported the people with whatever form of government they chose.
U.S. corporations - like Alcoa - have no inherent right to exploit the resources of foreign nations.
You are simple! ( simplesimon )
Just because something can be done does not mean that it should be done.
The Job creation suggested here is a minor and temporary thing.
The environmental hazard potential is permanent.
Bring down Oil prices? Please, that needs to happen in regulating Oil Futures trading.
If you want real/positive change and job growth that will help heal our environment, you need to support the development and implementation of Hydrogen fuel/power.
[Deleted]
thats very true, but it can mess up human health, but all in all humans are living longer than ever..so perhaps we shouldnt complain,
Given this context we should consider using all of the earth's resources as part of nature, just as the birds, bees, and even the Iranians.
We are as natural as the ocean. We are doing what nature designed us to do.
Simply because we have dominion over all other creatures does not mean we are somehow culpable in the world's end. Everything ends in due time, and until then we should mine for oil just as bees make honey.
this is Anne Rands philosophy no? basically enjoy your life and don't consider anyone else? I
You should not attach a name to what I think. That would be an error.
This really has nothing to do with consideration. It has to do with taking what we need from the earth while we are on it. The earth will certainly take us back when we no longer breathe.
Keep telling your self that while you wait for toxins to leach out of the water table. Have you got the time?
Oh my god! Toxins! I need to get on my spaceship and leave this place!
Sure sure. We'll miss ya. But I suppose next we'll find you pushing for a new industry like.
Oxygen Re-breathers.
Hey folks: they are cheap, they are economical, and if you order right now, we'll send you 2 for the price of 3 ( shipping & handling extra ).
Give your loved ones the gift of clean fresh re-breathable air. Each re-breather cell will guarantee hours of breathing pleasure ( death due to malfunction is actually rare ).
And if that's not enough to get you excited, our new model is 50% lighter. Just think of how much fun your kids will have when they are out playing in the acid rain with their friends.
Act right now and well include at no additional cost a free tube of burn cream a $19.99 value absolutely free ( shipping and handling separate )
So act now these deals are not going to last.
I'm not even remotely worried about our water supply.
Well I suppose that someone should tell you.
Denial is not a river in Egypt!
Really...I don't care. Get that oil flowing! Remember, friend. You have no dominion over me, nor I over you. The majority wants the oil, and we shall have it.
You can put your head back in the sand now!
Do really think the earth cares about you? Is the earth your mother?
Do what mommy says. Drink your oil like a good little puss.
Shh .. shhsh. Go back to sleep now.
I'll make that bad man stop trying to wake you up.
There .. there it's all right go back to sleep now .. Shh...shhsh .. it's OK.
Here have some cool-aid. There there it will be OK.
You just can't get over it....that someone thinks differently than you.
LOL!
I'm sorry.
Were you demonstrating ... thinking? I'm awfully sorry.
I thought you were giving a demonstration of marching blindly.
My Bad.
Oh, like sleeping in a tent and smoking pot, raping your women and shitting on the street? Standing around yelling at people who work for a living and pissing them off?
No, the demonstration is all yours friend. And quite a show it is.
You can complain all you like. The oil is coming, the OWS movement is full of people whose parents didn't do their job, and the people who wear the big boy pants will keep you in your place whether you like it or not.
we need the keystone everyone knows global warming is a hoax wake up
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It would be more efficient for them to process it in Canada anyway.
We don't need another environmental disaster ready to happen.
Amazingly enough it's pretty much slated to run right on the edge of the Pacific Ring of Fire, one good fracking or mother nature induced quake and hello to irreparable damage to our dwindling and constantly injured water supply and ocean ecosystems.
Somebody is smoking stuff better than the vision improving medical stuff from Californicate.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
No unfortunately your not. I mean as afar as it running along the fault line, I believe that it is going to run east of the Rockies and I'm not sure how active the area it is crossing actually is, but I know from experience that we got a lot of earth tremors in Colorado when I lived there. Either way it is a disaster waiting to happen.
Unfortunately for the blind supporters of today's current policies and practices. Denial is a river in Egypt.
oh common!
Denial is Not a river - not anywhere!
dayum.
That's my point
I know - I was yankin yer chain
Sorry. It's been a long day and I guess I'm getting a little groggy.
that's alright - it will happen
Thanks.
I guess you could have asked - Touchy Much?
Or perhaps not. That sounded to valley.
Fine let them destroy the planet. I don't even care anymore, global warming is irreversible by now.
Btw check the temperatures across the US now that we're on winter. I hope you're happy.
Holy crap, it's getting warmer everyday in Australia now! Look it up!
(LOL)
Yikes. :l
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and if you haven't taken action yet, the link:
is the most recent
Build the damn pipeline. Lots of jobs. Cheaper oil.
nope.
not gonna build the pipeline.
Most of those jobs are only temp jobs, and the actual number of jobs is way below that stated by the oil industry.
"Cornell Global Labor Institute Study Finds Keystone XL Pipeline Will Create Few Jobs,"
Ok expert.
I'm glad you are finally beginning to see sense.
SMASH the KeyStone
SMASH the KeyStone
Here is yet another ignorant post. Zendog's pic looks like he is a diehard "burner" bong boy, if ya know what I mean
guess what, nimrod
I haven't used recreational substances in years.
You're a fucking liberal crack addict, Nimrod.
Maybe if you weren't such a stuck up prick, you could do something important for society as well
Probably do more than you Dick.
I doubt that HIGHLY. You will see my contribution later in 2012. Keep an eye on the news homie. If you're lucky, maybe you can afford one :)
Ok homeboy. I'll keep my eyes peeled. Your contribution later in 2012, I'm sure will be really great. Btw, what do you plan on stealing? You're not a modern day RobinHood are you?
No way, I'm a Pro-Capitalism Liberal.
That's an oxymoron if ever their was one.
Tell me about it. Catch it from all sides homie.
He c'mon, lets be civil here.....All of us
proud of it.
did you know -
George Washington was a LIBERAL
Emancipation was a LIBERAL policy
Jesus was both a LIBERAL
and
why don't you just kiss my ass
Where should I start? You're all ass.
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This reminds me of the commercial where they ask the baby if he wants more cash and he says NO! :)
well, yeah
from the oil industry perspective, sure
no one has counted what it will cost the rest of America
smash the keystone
Yeah screw the pipeline. Let China tank the oil across the Pacific. Cause we all saw how well that worked out with the Exxon Valdez didn't we. The oil is gonna be used anyway so we might as well be the ones. We will be a hell of alot safer with it than China will
Even if China used it, it would make our oil cheaper because of supply and demand. It would also save us from building a monster pipeline that could become the nail in the coffin for the environment.
Apparently you missed the pipeline leaks in the north west this past summer due mostly to flooding.
You are correct. If the pricing of gas follows it's normal pattern it will soon be pushing the five dollar range so that it can settle back down to four dollars for awhile, before going on its next hike to claim the five dollar spot.
Cost has nothing to do with demand. It has everything to do with obscene profits. Just think if those profits had been dedicated to implementing Hydrogen fuel/power &/or Geo-thermal power/heating/cooling. The infrastructure is mostly there for big oil to take advantage of.
well . . .
: D
I tried to reply/support to your 3.00 statement , but an "apparent" system malfunction would not let me save the reply there. So I had to jump down some to get it to post.
Probably a little bit of system overload with everyone bumping this thread.
That's cool though. Keep this issue on top.
Yep it's a good one.
no, actually it isn't - but it is necessary, thanks to the fucking repelicans who think the people will simply get tired of this issue.
If it passes, I fully expect to see a resurrection of the ELF
which would be unfortunate, and must not be tied to the Occupy Movement. And there will, I am sure, be efforts to do just that.
So we will continue to educate, circulate and inspire action.
yes we will
It's going to be a long row to hoe. But I do believe that we are making progress.
just keep rowin'
we'll get there.
Put your backs into it. Lets get there sooner rather than later. Progress ya gotta love it if it is done right.
hoo rah
Charge!!!!!!!!!!!
hoo rah
And is it easier to clean up and repair a pipe break or an ocean liner????
A pipe leaking in the middle of a swamp or a river . . . or a tanker broken on a rock . . .
At least with a tanker, there is a finite number of gallons involved. A pipeline, however . . .
A pipeline has many many shutoffs throughout it's length. Look if your gonna try to comment at least have a grasp of the basics. Go read up on the Trans Alaskan Pipeline. Largest spill out of that thing 16000 barrels. The Valdez 750,000 barrels.
and the BP disaster - a much different set of circumstances, but a pipe, never the less - was somewhere in the vicinity of 200 million barrels.
How are the Indians being treated, who owned the land where this development has already occurred?
[Deleted]
really? cuz I think it will take at least ten years to really assess the impacts both to the ecosystem and to human health.
but go ahead, gobble up that gumbo. it does my heart good to know someone is supporting the locals down there.
[Deleted]
I'll be downtown later today.
Good. My people sell pies. All the profit goes to me, of course. Protesting is good for business.
yeah-ya.
prove it.
more likely you own a cake shop, and don't like the competition.
A pipeline is not the same as a Well aka Deepwater Horizon. Look you clearly don't give a shit about facts. Why don't ya just walk away from this. You can't grasp the concept and you can't stay on topic.
umm, lets see .. .
I did acknowledge that the bp well was a different set of circumstances
and I did post this Forum Post
If you aren't happy, take a hike
If we don't get the oil from Canada, China will. Would you rather keep getting our oil from the mid east?
Personally, I think we should be drilling for our own oil and natural gas ASAP.
I'm so sick of hearing China this China that. Who cares!