Forum Post: OWS is moving too far left, you're losing 150 million supporters
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 8:38 p.m. EST by Steve15
(385)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I'm done Naomi Klein, nice! Slavoj Zizek? WTF!
Someone please talk me into not turning my back on you all. I waited years for this and it got infiltrated by Commies! Too far left! Fuck me!
The right support the 1% while doing nothing for the 99%. If anybody want's go right. Take the next exit !
Way to show tolerance and solidarity, "littleg"! When are you planning to hand out our new uniforms and "movement bibles"? Oh, and can I talk you into not insisting on the goose-step? It's murder on my achilles tendons!
Nut up, OP. Don't be scared off by some Commies.
Right you are, Comrade! OWS needs people like Steve, and you, and maybe even like me! There's strength in diversity, because the more diversity we have, the better we'll be able to listen to, and talk to, the 99%. If we stop being able to honestly represent them, they'll know that, and they'll stop supporting us, and they'll be right to do so!
The OP cannot handle freedom of speech.
Slavoj is a communist asshole who thinks the problem is the system and not greed. Just change the system? How stupid can you get? But...BUT! the 99% includes a shitload of people with a variety of political ideas and some of those ideas will piss us off....so what? THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL MOVEMENT! I wish I could write that in a bigger font.
It is about making a course correction in the laws of our country that allow corporations to do just about whatever they want. Democracy is a fine system and does not need to be replaced with some mystical socialistic bullshit. What needs to be done is replace the laws which allow corporations to ruin our economy...such as giving corporations the status of being a 'person'. Greed is the problem and fertilized by the politicians who are in the pockets of corporations and special interest.
This is going to be a long tough road. Will those weak in the knees please get the hell out of the way. If you're going to shit your pants because a communist spoke at an OWS rally what the hell are you going to do when everything becomes a nightmare of a steady procession of protesters being beaten and put into jail. All the damn posting here is not going to stop that. No one is going to come out of this without scars.
Most of this forum is composed of people playing a game called Mental Masturbation. There will come a time when the game playing is over and the nightmare begins. "If you cannot handle the heat get the hell out of the kitchen."
This movement requires courage under an assault of all kinds of crap. Right now it is just verbal crap.....eventually it will get really ugly.....will you still be standing? What? you were expecting that we would all sit down and play nice? That we would not have to tolerate assholes jumping onto the band wagon like Slavoj or Unions, or politicians!
I'm here for the long haul and I don't give a shit what asshole wants to jump on the band wagon. I and others like me will boot them off.
"Slavoj is a communist asshole"
As opposed to a capitalist asshole who fires millions of workers, kicks people out of their homes, pays cops to beat up peaceful protesters, and kills and maims millions in the Middle East to protect their profits.
I don't care about your stupid and ignorant opinions about socialism. But you have to seriously think about who your real enemies are.
My enemy is anyone who attempts to dismantle the U.S. Constitution.
A Constitution that originally said that black people were "3/5ths of a person". There is nothing sacred about the Constitution. It was a progressive document for its time...but it's been 200 years. The people of the US and the world deserve something better then that.
It said that originally but was amended. It contained a process for amending itself. Our constitution is actually a pretty wonderful foundation for a nation. It just needs to be adhered to.
This country now "amends" the constitution by fiat. This is why intellectuals from all over the spectrum are considering calling for a new Constitutional convention.
http://conconcon.org
Well it is sacred to me and many others who enjoy the freedom of being a US citizen. Again, anyone who attempts to dismantle that document is my enemy and the enemy of many others like me.
Capitalists have dismantled everything that was "sacred" about that document a long time ago.
You cannot have democracy and an economic system that concentrates massive wealth into the hands of a few at the same time.
You don't need to dismantle the constitution to deal with corporations. I know the problems created by the corporations, and the solution is to get our government to correct those problems. OWS is a protest against corporations not the US Constitution.
I agree, it seems to be moving left.... at least that's what the media and democratic politicians seems to want it to do
Hopefully we can get the message across that we are not party-affiliated.
Yep, I agree. Slavoj Zizek???!? A well known communist intellectual--on the front page news of this site. We don't need the MSM to define us, we're defining (and defying) OURSELVES, with our own publicity. I WANT to support this movement, I want to support the demand to remove corporate influence over our government. I don't want to support communism or socialism, I want to support liberty.
Communist intellectuals, as well as right-wing intellectuals are welcome to speak. This is our movement, and nobody can take it or lead it unless you let them.
People need to understand that we are the 99% and that we have many viewpoints. Don't simply suggest that only people from your idealogy be able to speak.
I second that motion....
its not up to you to tell us who we can associate with. making friends with goofy people does not mean we share all of their views. focus on the think tanks and some kind of right action instead of your stupid ideology anyhow. or leave. we won't really miss you that much honest. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Or grow up and wake up and join us outside of the matrix. the movement has declined a democratic congress critter but allowed a pop icon. but you want to have it both ways and say they are stupid in one case for denying somebody the right to talk and stupid in the other for letting him.
quit spinning, quit playing the game, quit being a right wing dupe of the matrix and step away from the right wing talking points.
we aren't playing, and we don't care if right wing wingnuts abandon us, they will be back soon enough as the economy continues to crash.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
There is no need to be hostile to anyone. Everyone at OWS is here to say it's time for a fair economic situation for everyone, one that gives everyone opportunity for a better life - not the families of investors and CEOs. There are people of differing points of view gathered together in lower Manahattan and around the country, but we all agree on this one thing. Everything that people are angry about: unemployment, trillions in war spending, education cuts, union busting, exploitation of the poor around the globe - it is all a facet of the same picture. Corporate greed is out of control. It has suffocated U.S. democracy and killed our policy-makers' will to find real solutions to problems for long enough! The owners/shareholders of major corporations are immensely wealthy. They must give back what they earned at the expense of the health, welfare and future of the average person.
We can even create a bette world for the small investors-the folks with less than $5 millionin assets who are part of the 99%.
With the unions moving in i am worried it's going to start getting to political and Left leaning. I'm a Progressive so I am Left leaning but if the politics move in and start clouding the issues... The OWS movement is dead or at the very least will accomplish nothing more then a few token changes that will be meaningless.
The Left specifically isn't the only ones looking for a way in and to exploit this movement. It's being attacked on all sides. We can not divide.
"I agree, it seems to be moving left.... at least that's what the media and democratic politicians seems to want it to do. Hopefully we can get the message across that we are not party-affiliated."
Um, yeah, so, targeting democrats, specifically, in your comment is somehow "not party-affiliated? Really.
Good gawd, this is some arrogant BS. it's not the #OWS that needs to come to conservatives and others who disagree, it is conservatives and others who disagree who need to come to the #OWS.
Philosophically, it's really quite simple: the message of #OWS at the highest level is for policies that support the greater good; what used to be called "the common weal." That tends to be "lefty" for lack of a better term. Conservatives, Tea Party, etc., at the highest level, are for policies that exalt the individual over the greater good, and those folks tend to be rightists.
This is a huge divide, and I honestly don't know how it'll be bridged. There are some common elements, but once you delve down into specifics, these are very different sets of ideals.
Statements by the Steve15 that "it got infiltrated by commies!" don't help matters, and frankly, I doubt that people like that will ever be integrated into the movement--or should be, necessarily. I'm stunned at how many people keep telling the #OWS what to do and not to do, rather than doing some freakin' homework and figuring out where the two interests are similar and where they're not.
The best thing that the Tea Party disgruntled and other conservatives can do is to identify--honestly--commonalities and differences. Put your left/right agenda away (I know, it's hard for me too...) and try to think outside the box.
As long as OWS remains democratic, it will evolve in the way it needs to. We shouldn't be afraid of listening to different voices that all too often are drowned out by the corporate media. I am confident that OWS will evolve beyond "party" and "left-right". The corporate media and two party system has kept us locked in that phony mindset for too long.
OP
The CIA has undercover operatives arranging financing and inviting guests meant to discredit the movement. Don't get fooled by private Federal Reserve funded MSM propaganda and CIA cointelpro divide & conquer strategies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyYvDp6MaaU
Capitalism goes through a period of competition amongst capitalists, with some capitalists becoming larger and more powerful. This is the process of concentration of capital - we have seen it numerous times - The Sherman Anti-Trust Act was a response to conglomeration in the 1890s. Today the economic and political power and income share of the 99% compared with that of the 1% is an expression of the concentration process of capital. "The accumulation of wealth at one pole is therefore at the same time accumulation of misery ... at the opposite pole." We are seeing this again today - for this is one of the physically real drivers of the presence of protesters at OWS. Just listen to occupier's stories of lost jobs, stories of facing actual day-to-day precarious survival - the first in several or any of the occupier's family's generations in the USA. With the concentration of capital comes the top capitalists' desire to maintain that power in the hands of a few, which involves all kinds of control not the least of which is political control. This control requires the most authoritative goverment. We are seeing this now also - with the brutal suppression of peaceful OWS protesters and more generally with the gradual nullification of the Bill of Rights (You no longer have any 4th amendment rights) and the nullification of Civil Rights in the Patriot Acts. The concentration of capital leads finally to the governmental form of Fascism. This is the trajectory of capitalism, like it or not. The OWS occupiers in diverse degrees, some in fits and starts, some in more thorough progression and many in their intuition are coming to understand the trajectory of capitalism. For the last 60 years it has been forbidden to criticize capitalism in the USA. That is unhealthy and contrary to our claim that we value freedom of speech. It is better that we open our eyes and examine capitalism and ask how we can do better than capitalism, than to hide our eyes from an open honest look at our economic system. Those occupiers who raise their voices to examine and question capitalism are very brave people. Remember that it was not long ago during the McCarthy era that voicing such criticism came with very heavy life crushing penalites. Of course red baiting goes on today. We should not be afraid of knowledge and learning. The ad hominem attacks on those who question capitalism in this discussion board come from people who are afraid, and whose minds are closed by fear. We need to not fall prey to our fears. Fear and stress pushes us back to regressive emotional states in which we make bad choices. Zizek said communism was an absolute failure and he is right. But those failed attempts do not change the trajectory of capitalism. It does not change the fact that we must face this trajectory as it moves into less comfortable stages for more and more of us.
This is very easy to rectify. OWS has been characterized as a "hate the rich" movement. To some extent there is confusion on this point, but "hating the rich" has no explanatory value and cannot account for the success of the movement. Crucially, hating the rich will not motivate the American people, who care more about fairness than wealth inequality. But there is more than enough unfairness around, and general consensus across the political spectrum about who the culprits are. Many Americans have seen their livelihoods threatened and destroyed by oligarchs who enriched themselves at taxpayer expense and who have shown no love of free markets. Conservatives who believe in meritocracy fail to see the merit in a rigged system that rewards oligarchs for their political position, and that punishes the remaining 99%, or more accurately, the remaining 99.5%, no matter how hard they work. Wall Street wants Washington to give it business, and Washington has complied by providing it with privileged access to the money supply, lax regulation and an implicit tax on savings. Despite a public relations campaign according to which the oligarchs have repaid the taxpayer for bailouts with interest, the Fed zero interest rate policy (ZIRP) provides banks with very low interest cash loans they use to purchase debt from the Treasury, which remunerates the banks with interest, using public tax dollars. Savers are punished for saving, and popular social programs such as Social Security and Medicare are threatened. Bank reserves are very high compared with historical levels, and the Fed pays interest on these reserves, providing a further disincentive to invest. These developments--among many others--have served to enrich the banking oligarchy at the expense of the taxpayer. This offends a basic sense of fairness--hatred of the rich is entirely unnecessary. Some economists believe that by dismantling firewalls between investment and commercial banks, the too-big-to-fail behemoths ensured that the US government would have to bail them out, or else Americans would not have received their paychecks at the time, and their bank accounts and pensions would have been wiped out. Others dispute this, saying that the government would have stepped in to make payrolls. The point is that the system is an interlocking network, whose losses are largely absorbed by the taxpayer by design. In other cases institutions are permitted to survive even though investors take a bath, but someone has to pay for the institutions to survive. Whether making shareholders whole, or permitting failed institutions to fail another day, the bitter taste of unfairness and the profound sense that merit is nowhere to be found, leads to the animosity of the public toward the financial industry. This has nothing to do with hating the rich. It's fine to be critical, but we should consider some proposals. These aren't original with me--they are due to an economist, Herb Gintis, who is in no way a liberal. "These recommendations all stem from the simple observation that contemporary financial fragility is caused by excessively tight interactions among participants in the network of financial institutions. This excessive institutional interpenetration leads to amplifying rather than damping reactions to shocks to the system. Banking regulations should foster a large number of small and medium sized financial institutions, as well as limited inter-institutional connectedness. There should be firewalls between different types of financial institutions of a sort that limit contagious asset bubbles and collapses. Stockholder groups should ensure that monetary incentives for decision-makers in the financial sector favor long time horizons. There should be a complete separation of auditing and audited institutions. In particular, the latter should not hire and fire the former. Auditing firms should be financially liable for covering up weaknesses in the firms they audit. We need a new macroeconomic model replacing the rational expectations model that is engineered to deal with complex networks of financial institutions. There perhaps should be a small tax on financial transactions. The European Union should develop a central back with the full powers of a national central bank. Government accounts should be audited by international lending institutions, thus preventing covering up the true state of a country's finances. The major impediment to implementing these changes is the political influence of the financial sector, especially in the United States. The current "too big to fail" system is perfectly acceptable to the giants of finance, and the move to accountability will be vigorously opposed. In Europe, the obstacle to reform is political fragmentation."
Here here! Give me 1 inclusive statement against political corruption, and I'll bite. Much of these statements given are not tempered by 1) Experience 2) Moderation
(one of which is the problem with the current state of the Union in the first place)
Keep your minds open. Listen to all points of view and allow your ideas to develop. We have been taught to fear the left so we must not be afraid of ideas and opinions. We might learn something in an open dialogue.
Maybe the swing to the left is what exactly is needed. Maybe you do not agree with every statement put forward by participants; I do not either. Maybe you are concerned about Zizek being a posterchild and face of the movement; I agree.
Nevertheless, the fundamental issue are the issues: not about where these issues fall on an arbitrarily defined (and outdated) ideological spectrum. If Lenin were to come back from the dead and say that the banks are too big for our own good, that socializing losses and privatizing gains are woefully unfair, etc., it would still be correct regardless of who said it. The sky is blue even if President Bush says its blue.
Do not fall for the trap of having this movement portayed as a vast communist conspiracy; do not get caught up in the outdated ideological myths. The only thing that matters are the issues and what will be done to resolve them.
Maybe the swing to the left is what exactly is needed. Maybe you do not agree with every statement put forward by participants; I do not either. Maybe you are concerned about Zizek being a posterchild and face of the movement; I agree.
Nevertheless, the fundamental issue are the issues: not about where these issues fall on an arbitrarily defined (and outdated) ideological spectrum. If Lenin were to come back from the dead and say that the banks are too big for our own good, that socializing losses and privatizing gains are woefully unfair, etc., it would still be correct regardless of who said it. The sky is blue even if President Bush says its blue.
Do not fall for the trap of having this movement portayed as a vast communist conspiracy; do not get caught up in the outdated ideological myths. The only thing that matters are the issues and what will be done to resolve them.
every movement is gonna have voices like that. i saw some 9/11 truthers out there the other day. the key is to just keep talking to people and sharing your ideas about what you want done.
besides, a little socialism here and there never hurt anyone
Bill Clinton was in the middle and he won elections but he also did great harm with all of the free trade....ending glass steagal etc.....winning elections and screwing the people is no good.
whatever, it is what it is. stop trying to package it.
Come komrad lets celebrate with vodka and sour kraut
Is not the demand to end corruption of politics by corporate funding not already a progressive demand?
Don't worry too much about it. I'm not a commie and I am there. There is a diverse group of people here who want a fair economic system.
Don't worry too much about it. I'm not a commie and I am there. There is a diverse group of people here who want a fair economic system.
Do any of you people even know what Communism is all about? Why is it that so many Americans. even "progressive" types, start sounding like Glenn Beck the instant they talk about any real alternatives to capitalism? Ignorance, fear and cowardice is what this, nothing more.
Yes, because engaging in political cowardice, and caving to the bullying of the right wing always works great. Not critiquing the capitalist system itself, but merely attacking various symptoms, is the way to go.
How has caving to the Democratic Party and marginalizing radical voices worked out for you guys? For, say, the last 50-60 years? A pathetically weak labor movement and the slow but sure transformation of the USA into a Third World country congratulations.
We need more communists, not less.
Steve15, I understand and agree with you... however, it is way too soon to back out. If OWS goes left, they will lose. This is what will happen if people like you leave. Keep fighting for the moderate view. Encourage tea partiers (current and former ones) to join up and voice their side. We need to include as many people as possible and find the goals that 99% of Americans can agree on.
many people wish to marginalize this movement, stay inclusive, don't let them pigeon hole you. there is broad support for this, don't alienate people, use them.
Seems you already did talk yourself out.
If you're only going to focus on your personal perception of 2 people, then what exactly IS your grievance? 150,000 railing you financially, or 2 speeches you didn't like?
When protesters want someone to come speak why not let them no matter where they are on the political spectrum? If people want Ron Paul or an Ayn Rand enthusiast to speak why not let them speak? If you don't let anyone speak who is "too far" one way or the other you're going to miss some thought-provoking perspectives.
What you say may be true, but anytime you start speaking of fighting for a fair government, far left people will show up. It will be hard to start a movement that's about taking taking down the people who rape our country without getting their attention. While I don't agree with the far left on many issues, I don't hate them near as much as I hate the far right. I was a republican until these stupid people took over the party because a dark skin man was elected President.
The media and trolls want everyone to "believe" it's moving left (nice use of the "commie" buzz word - nice touch) but it isn't. As we type, OWS is attracting left, center, and right. Ask around. There are even some TP folks joining. These tactics to break it up don't work. We know your game. Have fun trying though. ;)
Don't be divided and conquered...It is the oldest technique in the world. We need Campaign for Liberty and spread our knowledge...
LISTEN to what the man has to say. Take what he says and hear what truths ring for you. If you don't agree completely, take it with a grain of salt. Last I heard, there was no political agenda assigned to any of this. The one thing that we all stand united on is that REVOLUTION IS NECESSARY. The venue is here for ideas and philosophies to be discussed-- not thrown away. Listen to all sides. Be patient. Keep up the fight. Be heard. Then, (for now) listen some more. There is a huge country uniting under the idea of revolution. He may be a communist philosopher, but can the Christian not learn from Islam any more than the Jew from Buddhism?
It is revolutionary speech, take what you like and leave the rest. You don't have to agree with every word that he said. Your voice is equal to his in this movement. Speak up and be heard! His message the marriage between Capitalism and Democracy is over. Take corporate greed out of politics!
If its moving "too far left" its because that's what the people there want. No one is imposing it on them. OWS is officially non-partisan, and it is also a real democracy, where the people decide. Im vary far left, but still totally open to the input of right wingers of long as they are pro horizontal, direct democracy and against elites.
Speak for yourself troll!
Good advice! Far better that he speak for himself, than that he let someone else speak for him. Oh, and one more thing: he writes less like a troll than you do, I'm sorry to say, despite the fact that I probably don't agree with him very often.
Are you in the right forum? If you do disagree with the cause maybe you should f*ck off.
I don't disagree with the cause. Disagreeing with you is not the same as disagreeing with the cause, thank God. if you were the cause, you would be alone, here.
150 million supporters.....that is a bullshit stat with literally no proof whatsoever. shut up.
Well, personally, I'd prefer something closer to 300 million, or even the full 99% we claim to represent, but if you'd prefer another number, go for it.
if there is any proof to your claim then im all ears.
I didn't make any claim; I expressed a personal preference, and if you've figured out a way to falsify a personal preference, let's have it.
You are talking numbers.Numbers require proof. So far, you are making a baseless claim
I made no claim. I expressed a personal preference. If you think I made a claim, cut-and-paste my exact words making that claim. You can't? What a surprise! In that case, why don't you back your junk out of here and go hide in a corner somewhere?
I was referring to moderate left and right supporters, which easily number 150 mill or more
That isn't even a proven statistic and you honestly expect me to take you seriously when you come here with this unproven,factless bullshit lie? Yeah right.
It's a number. You got a better one? What is it, and why do you think it's better?
its a number with no proof behind it to actually confirm it exists! You can't just spout off random bullshit and then expect people to take that.
Hey, 150,000,000 is a number that exists. I know. I've seen it.
All numbers exist durr! But if you are going to make a numerical claim, you'd damn well better be prepared to defend it with some real,actual proof! So far, you have provided nothing to prove what you are stating!
Please cut-and-paste my exact words claiming what you claim I'm claiming. MY words, not yours, not someone else's. Can't do it? Of course you can't! Well, then, proof-boy, you're your own best evidence that you're an idiot.
So you have no evidence whatsoever of your claim...ok just come out and say that you are full of shit. Thanks and this was fun.
One more time, for the hearing-challenged: I made no claim, as proven by your inability to show evidence that I did. As for being full of shit, I didn't eat you, so I can't be full of shit.
You're kidding right. Are you capable of applying arithmetic and common sense, or would you like me to get on the road and conduct a survey? WTF
lolol, you still can't even provide a single shred of proof of your claim! Why don't you just go ahead and say that the moon is made of green cheese already!
EVERYONE is angry http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqLMjYT3b4w
Steve, when people decide to be inclusive, and to turn no one away because of what they believe, you're going to get a lot of marginalized people who join up because they want that sort of community, they want to be accepted for themselves, not for "what you read or what you wear". Unless you're going to dress everyone in school uniforms and give us all some sort of "movement bible", you'll get every imaginable kind of belief and point of view being expressed, with every conceivable degree of ineptitude. As long as OWS remains an experiment in inclusiveness, we're just going to have to hope that our differences will make us stronger, not weaker.
Well put, I'm encouraged
I'm glad! OWS needs you, Steve. WE need you. If you were to leave, an irreplaceable part of our reality-view would leave with you, and whatever consensus OWS might eventually develop would be poorer, narrower, and more limited, for the lack of that.
there aren't any commies. you reacting this way proves your programmed by the corporate oligarchy.
You have a choice. you can go with fascism and totalitarianism and call it republicanism and get your memes pipe fed through a straw direct to you from corporate oligarchy republican pundits- or you can wake up and get real and realize who the real enemies are and why.
If you think you can change anything by having a temper tantrum and holding yourself hostage- your kidding yourself. If you want things to stay centered then its your responsibility to participate. Its not going to go left, and its not going to go right. so quit feeding us far right ad hom talking points from the ass of rush limbo, and get with the program. Or walk away. We will see how long it takes you to come back as the movement grows and as civilization lurches toward collapse.
Damn! You know, sometimes it's hard to tell who the real fascists are, without a scorecard! But one thing I know is, you are scary! I'm one of the few guys in Colorado who doesn't own a gun, but you make me want to run right out and buy one--not to wave at the banksters and the corporados, but to defend myself from people like you!
thats good, because i sing in four octaves, have super human reflexes, see in the dark, can take 5 men most times before they even know what hit them and so I'm pretty frigging dangerous. BOO. Thankfully i am also a pansy intellectual, or i'd consider that a violence threat and report you to law enforcement.
GROW UP kiddo. your boring me and wasting my time.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
Oh, yeah--a personal threat to defend myself if necessary. Good luck with that one, mein Herr! And what's with all the URLs linking to stuff only a serious masochist would even consider reading? Are you just trying to prove that nobody can waste your time better than you already do?
no, fool, i'm talking over your head at the crowd thats now laughing at the contrast between troll and information worker. and laughing. defend yourself? do you know why your ilk are all violent? your paranoid delusional in circles. your scaring yourself to death that HIPPIES are going to COME in the MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.. and what? offer you bong rips? dude. Why is it my job to be your therapist? Defend yourself? from non violent protesters that are hundreds or thousands of miles away from you? NO. What happened is you imagined yourself doing violence to them and me and then you forgot who started the paranoid delusional fear mongering scenarios. its all in your mind. sanp out of it, cuz your future depends on evolution not devolution winning out also.
Unlike you, whose future depends upon finding a large enough group of people sufficiently challenged that they take you seriously. If you're not a total jerk, you need to wake up and look around you: nobody here is impressed by your rabid stupidity. As for me, the reason I don't own a gun is that I'm one of the few socialists in Colorado, but I get along with my neighbors--unlike you--so if I ever need a gun, all I have to do is phone a neighbor.
looking around, many people are impressed with me and i get kudos and thumbs up and ten people a day in pm thanking me. the stupid person is you.
your a socialist. your not going to be popular here. I'm facts and truth, your sucky ideology and ignorance. who needs that garbage? not us.
My friends and neighbors would fight for me, as I would for them, even though we don't agree. We don't have to agree, we just need to help each other. It's all about inclusiveness! The people you agree with AND the people you disagree with are all part of the 99%! Get rid of those who disagree with you, and you will be part of the 10% or less!
My three favorite writers are Chomsky, Zinn and Naomi Klein you fucking idiot. go fuck yourself.
And you assume "gawdoftruth" will know what you're saying, here? Fact is, s/he won't know what you're talking about, or who those writers are, or what they say. The only stuff s/he reads is mimeographed by fiery-eyed, bearded men in dark basements.
and i am supposed to be impressed or informed by that? your ad hom proves you know you are wrong and that you have no argument. stop the double think and cognitive dissonance.
to get serious requires a few things they don't have. like chat admins who aren't ego serving propaganda tools, a wiki, 1001 sub forums, an actual game plan, a straight up political platform... you know.. basic organizational things sane people do BEFORE protesting.. like figure out a diplomacy and logic centered metaprocess to give their chatadmins so that they don't really just drive out even more people than the trolls. Adminatrolla. trollaAdmin. Whats the difference to somebody whos got the truth facing a propaganda tool abusing admin powers to push their agenda? how can you prevent such a thing? Metaprocess. did i mention metaprocess? and science diplomacy science psychology science sociology and all those textbooks to read B4 protesting?
you can't have capitalism without a free(SLAVE) market. but you can have a free market without capitalism. And thats strangely the only way it CAN work.
Marketing 101 was fascinating. I admit thats a lot less than a bachelors but its sure more than enough to see whats really going on given the other things I know. Capitalism is not the problem since it does not exist. corporate oligarchy is the problem. capitalism has never been tried. I am a democracy guy. in order for real democracy to function a free market system is required. Thats not capitalism. thats a free market system. there is a subtle difference there which most people would miss. I will again repeat. Neither capitalism nor marxism nor communism nor socialism has ever existed. All of those governments were oligarchy pretending to be something as a con scam. Telling that simple truth gets one banned out of the Chat by either a capitalist or a socialist whos pissed you just said their pet ideology isn't real. It isn't. anybody who thinks that it is is accidentally playing for team corporate oligarchy as a tool. the ONLY system worth talking about is DEMOCRACY. how democracy HANDLES a FREE MARKET system is dynamic and interesting and NOT capitalism.
o. yes. no. yes. what? making change is not reliant on changing the money system one tenth as much as it is on changing the informational ecology. Going to a gold standard as an idea is a proof of ignorance, not a solution. Really the end game is we evolve out of money. To do that we evolve first new currencies and new economic strategies. this leads to economic singularity in about 50 years. If everyone is a millionaire how much you get depends on exactly the material valuation of that money. Which is to say that by the time money becomes obsolete everyone will live like the current millionaire. Tangible items to other tangible items? the real economy is about ideas, change the ideas and everything changes. the problem with the tangible economy is it does not change; its a static reality. you can't make a meaningful gold standard with only enough gold to represent on millionth of the economy. You can make a purely imaginal money system work; but it has to be subject to moral and ethical laws. This is about pinning down those moral and ethical laws and implementing them in new currencies; not trying to imagine a control freak impossible non solution because of the simplicity with which you go about thinking over the problem.
once again. there has never been a socialist or capitalist economy. in all instances such nations were oligarchies. using a mask and a con scam and telling their dupes and pwns that they were something other than oligarchy. the big hump to get over is that the USA oligarchy and the Soviet oligarchy are in on this lie against the rest of us TOGETHER. Neither of them was ever anything other than an oligarchy. both claimed some other system in order to have US fight over the ideals of THAT system while they secretly shafted us all playing a completely different game.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150343790359248&set=a.10150264906064248.348293.511989247&type=1&theater
Hah! You see, Steve? I was right! If "gawdoftruth" has laid a hand on a single book--other than to toss it into a bonfire--that hasn't happened since s/he dropped out of high school.
You have a lot of built up energy my friend. My point was that i'm not a right winger as you implied. I figured by pointing out my passion for those writers, you would get the point that I embrace the left. Have a good night. Try to get some rest you have a big day tomorrow.
Oh, and "gawdoftruth", please consider going back onto your medications. They really do help.
If you actually listened to Slavoj Zizek's speach, you would realize that he was criticizing communism. People like you who can't think for yourself are part of the problem.
You know, if I were to go just by this little exchange--and I do--it kind of looks like Steve is thinking for himself more than you're thinking for yourself. He's trying to fight the problem; you're trying to fight him.
Fight what problem? Communism? I don't see that as a problem. And as far as I'm concerned either scenario you described could require thinking for oneself.
Everyone thinks for himself; it's a matter of quality and degree. As the late Steve Biko said, "The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
Oh wow, a quote...
the message I got was that he was criticizing the regime he lived under, but he still embraces the communist system. am I mistaken? Also you should have better manners if you want to encourage people or are you just a fucking troll?
Troll sounds possible. Hey, Alec, do you live under a bridge? If you do, are you just homeless, or do you eat people?
Fail kid. Try again.
Just ruling out the wildly unlikely. It's a filthy job and the pay bites, but somebody has to do it.
"Communism failed absolutely."
He may be embracing certain communist ideals, sure. But who the fuck cares? Jesus embraced certain aspects of communism as well. So did Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi (clearly they must have been horrible people too...).
Don't misunderstand me, I also embrace socialist ideas. Anyone with understanding would. My point was that to maintain a system of support with the masses, it would be wise to be appear more diverse. I may have over thought Slavoj I'm tired and need to get up for my UNION job tomorrow.
I see your point. I guess I'm optimistic in thinking that people will focus more on the issues of corporate greed that are being discussed, than the type of people who are discussing them.
We've had a long time when economic issues simply were largely ignored by the left. I'm personally happy to see these issues being seriously addressed at all.
That said, this OWS movement will only succeed long term if it can give a voice to the broad consensus of the American people-and avoid getting bogged down into divisive politics.
Right On, Randall! If some faction--ANY faction!--succeeds in getting rid of everyone who disagrees with it, the 99% will know OWS doesn't represent most of them, anymore, and the support will disappear.
Now that the TEA Party has been hijacked by the 1%, you might as well join up here and move the needle in the direction you want it to move.
I lean far more left than I ever imagined. I was once a self professed Neo Con. Imagine? I took a hard left turn after reading Howard Zinn and Chomsky. Knowledge is power.
Thanks for the input friends. I will keep a watchful eye.
Not many of us left.
You can't reason with savages. They want confiscation through force.
They will not get what they hope for. We aren't going to stand for it.
That means you'll have to stay, doesn't it? If you leave, what you stand for isn't going to influence the consensus very much.
Yep. Didn't say I was going anywhere. There's no place else in the world to run to. This is it.
Damn straight it is! This is America's last best chance to get it right, provided that we don't screw it up by splitting into a million griping factions!
"Confiscation through force..." Something like the confiscation through force of the Iraqi oil by the invaders?
Yeah, something like that, too. That kind of crap needs to stop right now.
Exactly how did the US confiscate Iraqi oil? How many US oil companies actually have received oil exploration concessions from the Iraqi government?
http://stocks.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2010/Oil-Companies-Making-Moves-In-Iraq--XOM-BP-RDS-E-OXY0118.aspx#axzz1aKz1gzKi
If anything, under Saddam's regime, the people of Iraq were having their national resource pillaged by French and Russian oil companies.
Thanks for the link, and thanks for blowing up that meme (I already knew that).
Steve, This is an inchoate, nascent upwelling, please be patient and give the benefit of your thoughts and insights to this forum. This is an open-source open-architecture forum... I think you will find many persons with whom you can concur. Regards.
Anybody out there?
I'm still here, but pretty soon I gotta feed my cat and go to bed.
Too far left, okay- there's lots of lefties in a new social movement regarding economic rights. That's to be expected- especially with a movement that's so sporadic and so intensely focused on the economic poor. It's hard to figure out which way the rudder is turning, but that's why people like you are important. Keep posting, keep voicing yourself- go to the rallies, encourage likeminded people like yourself to come, stand out and make your own values heard in contrast to the ones with which you disagree. This is the beginning of a movement and movements begin with trading ideas. That's all that can be done right now
Thank you for the encouragement. I can't disagree you make perfect sense.
Thanks! Good luck, my friend.
Yeah, that concerns me as well. Naomi Klein is a real nut. And there are also troubling indications that they're inserting divisive identity politics ideology into 'the movement', with so called 'special caucuses especially for people of color'. More leftist apartheid - just what we all need. They've even invited Al Sharpton to address 'the special concerns of people of color'. This is a movement that transcends race? Seems like same ole divisive, color obsessed PC politics that alienated a generation away from the left in the first place.
The exciting potential of a rational, new politics that moved beyond the suffocating straight jacket of left/right poltics appears to have been a pipe dream. This is looking more and more like a predominantly trustafarian pot party.
Large numbers of them are clearly just kids play acting Woodstock '69, wearing tie dye shirts, waving peace signs, doing psychedelic 60s type dances with tambourines; it's degenerated into a 60s theme party with pretentions of a serious political agenda.
It's looking more and more like the 1% wannabe hippie fringe versus the 1% Wall Street welfare kings than the non-partisan 99% movement naively imagined.
What a shame.
I think their just allowing these people to speak for intertainment. The participants in this movement seem to be articulate individuals who do a lot of research before they start talking. Un-like tea party people who run around saying things like, Obama has weakened gun laws, when the fact is gun laws have loosened greatly under Obama. For the first time in my life I can walk into a public place with my weapon concealed. Anyway, I don’t think these people can be fooled as easily. They can read between the lines. When the tea party first came on the scene they wanted to take down the big banks, but republicans took over and convinced them that the problem was not the banks, but it was the new health care laws. That was the end of that fight. I don’t think these people will allow that
If it moves too far radically left then OWS loses credibility. I know many of us want leftutopia ideology but for me it would be nice to actually win elections and influence public policy.
Yeah, except that has been tried for the last 50-odd years and it doesn't work.
The government is controlled by the rich. They bankroll the candidates, they frame the debate in the media(because they own it), and they destroy the career of anyone in politics who does stand in their way.
It's time to outflank this rigged system by taking to the streets and starting a revolution.
I am in the street right now. The reason I am here is because I love people, not because I am going to start petty fights with each individual who comes along. That is what I mean. It takes focus and emotional discipline.
I have come out to support Occupy Wall Street too. I understand that we are not all coming from the same place politically. All I objected too is this notion that we need to censor radical left voices in the name of mainstream "credibility". That is antithetical to democracy.
Yeah, and it's not even just to be nice! We have to be realistic in order to survive as working class people in this country. In the next decade we have to influence policy or we will be an endangered species. We actually already are an endangered species. That is why I can't abide with folks who are emotionally undisciplined. State your ideas, they are all welcome. But attacking those who are afraid or who don't agree with you will not get us anywhere. When someone questions you, think of them first. Ignore trolls. Have compassion for all people if they are afraid or confused or just do not agree with you. It might even help to ask yourself if you could be the one alienating someone in any way. Because we need everyone, a whole coalition of different perspectives, to work together against our own extermination.
I actually began following the OWS after someone I respect asked why more people don't seem to be interested in the protests. Turns out that the more I learn, the more it seems that it is driven, in part, by far left ideology and is getting support from too many people/groups that I don't trust or admire. I'm also thinking of tuning out. Seems more like OWS is representing the 33% rather than the 99%. I hope I'm wrong.
As do I. Remember that the 33% is PART of the 99% and, if we exclude them, we'll be, at best, the 66%. Add one more 6 and you'll see where we'd be going with that.
Which is why I keep stating that in order to be successful and to really represent the 99%, there has to be a small set of universally accepted guiding principles that can be supported by a large majority of the so called 99%.
I can't seem to find anything like that so far. I find a lot of posts disparaging republicans, conservatives and the tea party. That's not helpful if the goal is to unite the 99% to affect some change.
I completely agree! Disparaging or excluding anyone instantly and irreversibly loses us part of the 99%, not to mention that it's a form of bigotry, which is just plain wrong. Anyone who is part of the 99% has a right to be here, a right to speak his or her mind, and a right to be listened-to and heard. "Do you really think we care what you read or what you wear? Come on and join together with the band!" - The Who really nailed that one, didn't they?
It's driven by Libertarian ideology and that is neither left or right. It's some where out in loony land where robots do all the work for us and pillage the earth.
Perhaps my understanding of libertarian is askew, but support by Soros, Labor Unions, Move-on, Slavoj Zizek, stephen lerner, etc, combined with the many lists of demands, looks more liberal/progressive than libertarian to me. Sure, there are some libertarian ideas i the mix, I will admit, but it doesn't seem to be the majority view.
The minute we get a "majority view", this movement will be deader than yesterday's catfish on a hot day.
" support by Soros, Labor Unions, Move-on, Slavoj Zizek, stephen lerner, etc, combined with the many lists of demands, looks more liberal/progressive than libertarian to me"
There are no official list of demands and i am against any that favor one political party over the other. I'm not interested in creating a few new laws or bills inside of a broken system. Whats the point ?
Well, if it is going to have any success, there needs to be an official set of guiding principles that are non-partisan and fairly universally accepted.
Does such a thing exist? If so where do I go to find it. It doesn't seem to exist here. Is this really the official web site for the movement?
I see too many posts here that look like demands from the left and a lot of posters disparaging republicans, conservatives and the tea party. All the while saying the OWS represents the 99%
Like i said, i do no support any political views. The reason being is that those political views are derived from a broken system. Instead of coming up with all these complex ideas about our economy or this issue or that issue, why not just focus on the few issues we all agree on and fix our government ?
Hmm...Seems like we are in agreement.
I think we are ...
An example, one problem I'm sure we agree on. Wall Street buying our politicians. Do we need to discuss our economic views to figure out how to fix this problem ? Does Obama or Ron Paul need to be brought into this discussion ? Why cloud the issues with insignificant B.S ? lol It drives me nuts and is the reason why i have no faith the OWS will do any thing but get it's 15 minutes of fame.
Yes, we agree, perhaps. I'd like to go further and find a way to remove the influence of any big entity, be it wall street, corporations, PACs or unions, on our politicians. They should only be accountable to their constituents that sent them there to act in our and the country's best interests.
(I need to bow out of this conversation now. Have to get up early for work. If you post a reply I'll try to respond tomorrow)
I agree with you 100%.
I have been saying something similar for years and the OWS movement seemed to be attempting to address those issues. Regardless of our political views I'm fairly confident we could figure out a way to remove the money from our government.
Fund political campaigns with tax dollars. It would take some discussion on how to accomplish this and do it fairly, It wouldn't be to hard to do though.
Remove lobbyists and special interest groups from Washington. Special interest groups and lobbyists should have NO contact with our politicians outside of an open public forum.
Make any and all campaign donations illegal. This includes citizens. No donations to our politicians or their campaigns at all.
These 3 things would directly address the problem and in my opinion, solve it. Also, if you agree with them or not they do not cross any ones political or social issues. =)
Same type of labeling, and fear mongering I saw when I was in Egypt during the Youth Revolution in Egypt. Just the fact that you used the word "commies" tell me that you are an intolerant right winger who claim falsely that you are on the left. Just your heading on "losing 150 million" tells me you are no different than those alarmists on the right. Just as the Egyptian revolution was not sponsored by any one group whether political or religious, it has been shown clearly that this group is not sponsored and does not sponsor any one ideology. It is a platform for all voices. It is an avenue to your individual voice to be heard. It is a means for the people to take back control of government.