Forum Post: Dear Occupy Wallstreet
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 10, 2011, 12:43 a.m. EST by trackjunkie
(15)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Dear occupy wallstreet,
I think that it is important people are aware of the current economic state, and I’m not sure the protestors know what is actually going on, and what the possible solutions are.
First and Foremost:
Since 1973 the cost of living index has gone up 400% Since 1960 the cost of living index has gone up 600%
Which would be fine if wages also went up, however average wages have only gone up 1% per year.
The American way tells us that we need to work harder if we want something. So couples are getting married and both are going to work. They are cutting spending more than the previous generation, and they are still failing to hold the middle class status.
In the early 1990s banks introduced the sub-prime loans, this was great for starting families, and jobs weren’t being outsourced, or automated. Everyone was happy for 15 years, and the home values continued to appreciate. Banks thought they could make a fortune from all the home loans, and if the borrower couldn’t make their payments, the bank would still own the house.
Well people started losing their jobs, due to outsourcing and technology. They couldn’t make good on the mortgage, and they just walked away from the house, leaving it to the bank.
Now it would have been nice if the gov’t didn’t bail the banks out, just like if we go to the casino and bet all our money and lose, nobody is going to give us our money back.
But they’ve been bailed out and we have to carry on.
So what I think would be effective for large corporations and government:
Provide tax incentives for hiring people who are located in the US Raise wages to keep up with inflation Restructure the school system to focus more on computers and technology versus mindless memorization of liberal arts and history
What would be effective for the rest of us:
Remove this act of entitlement; you decided to take out thousands of dollars in student loans to get a degree in history, or liberal arts and you can’t find a job, you are not a victim, you choose poorly.
you decided to work for some else for 20 years and then got laid off, you are not a victim, you choose poorly.
you have tried to start a business but failed, you are not a victim, you have not done enough research.
The US rewards individualism, resilience, and entrepreneurship. For those of you who lack these qualities of course corporations are going to take advantage of you, and pay you as little as possible. There will always be people sitting around and peeing on themselves. You can either go out there and make something of yourself or not. Nobody cares.
look man forget all that, we're taking down the whole dam system
and you lose my support. You're now at 98% and dropping fast. Keep it up and the only movement you'll have is a BM.
Why we need Glass-Steagall to be reinstated:
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wXj http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act/
Why are oil prices high?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-kExdTgNZA&feature=channel
atlas shrugged,. then dropped the ball.
"The US rewards individualism, resilience, and entrepreneurship."
Horseshit.
Sometimes, these things are rewarded. But there is NO reward built into the system and the hardest working, most resilient entrepreneurs can be taken out by forces in business that are beyond their control.
Your last two words are most telling:
"Nobody cares"
The fact that you believe nobody cares tell much about the kind of world you would create. In a world where nobody cares, self interest reigns supreme and the worst of human nature is brought to the fore.
You are wrong. There are A LOT of people that care.
Thanks for the reply you made to this post. I care and so do a shitload of others....everyone of those protesters across the world CARE! "The US rewards individualism, resilience, and entrepreneurship. " Yes, but we need a level playing field and that is what the OP does not seem to understand. The game is rigged! People are not losing or winning based on effort or creativity. They win or lose based on the absurd laws that protect corporations and supress the individual's right to pursue what he or she desires.
Shorter OP: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! If the economy is wrecked, it's your own damn fault!
Your line about "individualism, resilience, and entrepreneurship" is tired and worn out. People are starting to wake up. We're educating each other about the thieves and scoundrels, and we're not going to pay for your crisis.
Try this for history:
http://occupiedblogger.blogspot.com
So what happens when everyone decides to study finance because it's the most profitable game in the world?
Oh, that's right, everyone starves.
Feel high and mighty making the right choices now? Or do you acknowledge that EVERYONE plays a role in our world?
blame the victim is an evil tactic. http://occupywallst.org/forum/thetruth-socialismcapitalismcommunismmarxism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-versus-corporatism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/help-me-understand/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/capitalism-a-love-story/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/sociology/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/energy-101-solution/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ethics/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/break-your-left-right-conditioning/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nader-kucinich-and-paul/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/5-facts-you-should-know-about-the-wealthiest-one-p/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/teaching-the-occupation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-needs-structure/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-not-your-personal-billboard-for-your-politi/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/systems-theory-primer/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/organize-inform-take-action-effect-change/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/better-website-needed/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-playing-the-devils-games/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/nonviolence-the-only-path/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-not-against-capitalism/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-is-not-about-political-stripe-it-is-about-bas/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/national-initiative-for-democracy/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-third-political-party-the-movement-of-the-middle/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/300-fema-camps/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-is-a-false-flag-operation/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-this-will-not-work/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/paradigm-shift-now/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-proposal-for-focus/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/stop-the-bullshit-posts-and-get-organized/
What is simple common sense to you is not so simple and does not make as much sense to many of us. And if it ever was the case that nobody cared about the casualties of the the rat race, that clearly is no longer the case. When the numbers reach a critical mass things change.
also, if I worked for someone for 20 years and I get canned,how the fuck is that even my fault? I had nothing to do with that. get a brain you moran!
You relied on someone else for your lively hood, health care and future. You were a hostage and chose poorly.
What the USA rewards is individualism, self reliance and entrepreneurship. It was set up by people who were principled in Freedom. There are no such things as good times or bad times... just different times. It is up to each one of us to figure out what it is going to take TODAY, not yesterday or tomorrow, to be successful.
OK...so I get a job and its still my fault because a company fires me due to company cutbacks? just go fuck yourself.
you sound angry, and it sounds like you think you have some sort of entitlement. Why not go work for an oil company in Texas, I know those companies reward those who are hard workers.
Do you have the commitment to move up in the company?
Of course I have the commitment. But seriously, to blanket bash the worker without ever even considering the selfish actions of the employer is kind of bullshit.
Go run a business, and see how freakin competitive it is out there. An employee working for a company who's been there for 20 years is in some cases an unnecessary cost. You could hire someone straight out of school and pay them half as much, or go overseas and pay them pennies on the dollar. If this was the only way to keep yourself in business and food on the table, I'm sure you would do it also.
It unfortunate if you're not willing to go above and beyond to keep up with the system.
do you know what it means for your work to equal having food on the table? that means if i don't do this work now i will starve. i will dig in the trash. i will steal it. i will ask for it from everyone i know until they turn me away. i will find change i left in the floor and the couch and i will buy ramen noodles.
how freakin competitive it is out there...in your delusional world where a business owner outsourcing his workers can't tell the difference between basic necessity and excess maintained through exploitation of and utter disregard for others.
I'm not willing to fuck someone over and pay them shit. If I have to do that then I'd rather not support your so called "system".
The US rewards individualism, resilience, and entrepreneurship.
if only that were actually true. as for the rest of your post, go fuck yourself.
look at mark zuckerberg, I'm sure he was in the lowest income bracket, and now I'm sure he's in the top 1%.
don't be mad at the world, we are adaptive creatures, I know you can change.
I cant say i agree with most of what you said. You are telling people they choose poorly if the job they had for 20 years suddenly disappears. I am sorry what class did you take in school that lets you see 20 years in future?
As for the education, you are basically telling people they choose poorly if they choose a certain profession over another. It is my impression that many are using this as a cop out to defend their position of being Anti -OWS. Or at least that is what i have seen on other boards. All education is valuable not just selective education. And while i see where you may be going with this point, many people such as my g/f have degrees in two fields. Hers are graphics design which is being outsourced to India because they will literally do the job for below min wage and accounting. And we can all agree that accounting should be a high demand job. But she works 20 hours a week as a caregiver for the elderly in their home for min wage.
Starting a business is not as easy as you think. You just dont decide one day hey i want a business and look it up. You have to have a place of business...many people cant even afford a house and have to live with friends. You have to get all the proper permits and licenses. This alone can cost several thousand dollars. Then you have to have working capital, tools for your business which can cost in the hundreds of thousands, and on top of that some may have to keep inventories on hand. If starting a business was as easy as you make out everyone on this site would be a business owner right now.
On top of this starting a business in this economy is insane. First you have to have demand for a product. Their is not going to be any demand for any products that are not necessities right now. And all the corps already covered those and you are not going to compete with them and still be able to stay afloat.
Not necessary a product, what about a service?
What about a disaster recovery service? There seems to be a natural disaster every few years. You construct a team, propose something to the insurance companies, and do the best work. Guess who they're going to contact the next time there is a disaster.
Permits are cheap, unless you're talking about an alcohol license, which run about 8,000.
Starting a business isn't easy, but if you're really interested there are many free consultants. Just google it for your area. Find a mentor, and go work for his or her company for a few years, and then look for investors.
I've gone out to a few of the occupy events and just chatted it up with people, and as much as I hate to generalize, nobody had the wherewithal to stick with anything. They just gave up to easily. I don't blame them with all the social media, and need for immediate gratification.
I'm starting a gaming website "for this economy" because there is always people who think they can win big.
Services still require tools. For example, I am a carpenter and i do a lot of roofing. A roofing license is required in my state on top of the normal red tape for a business. The license is $250 or something like that. The test is written by......a corporation. The practice test has little to do with actually applying shingles. Its mostly overly technical BS that really doesnt have much use in actual roofing. For example, one question wants to know what the scientific( chemical) name for felt or tar paper is. It is something like fiberous cellulose asphalt membrane. I have been roofing for 15 years and put on hundreds of roofs. NO ONE has ever called it that. I am a roofer why do i need to know this? I dont make it, I apply it. It is totally useless information. The books you need to pass this test cost $2500 or so from the same company.
Then we have tools a truck, nail gun, hoses, compressor, etc. You can use a hammer and nails too it just takes a lot longer and people dont like their roof open for long periods of times.
I figure i need at least $10,000 to cover everything to get started. Only about 25 % of this is in tools except for a truck which i own so i wouldnt count. And that is before i get my first job!
10 grand is cheap, I want to open a car dealership. Insurance and rent is going to be that for 1 month.
Compared to some businesses quite cheap. But it is $9960 more than I have in the bank. I use to help run a construction company back before this recession.
Wouldnt start a construction company now. Not till they get some of these houses off the market so the big companies go back to building. When they do that it will be easier to enter the construction market.
In brief:
The liberal arts are absolutely necessary for maintaining a healthy society (I recommend any of Martha Nussbaum's writings on the subject)
you fail to argue how a company's decision to lay off a worker after twenty years of employment reflects a poor decision on the part of the employee
again, you fail to argue that an unsuccessful business reflects only insufficient research; intentionally or not, you do not take into account conditions beyond the entrepreneurs control
If you have any genuine interest in really understanding how we got to where we are today, in which the gains of our economy go overwhelmingly to just a tiny sliver of Americans, see Winner-Take-All Politics: Public Policy, Political Organization, and the Precipitous Rise of Top Incomes in the United States, available at: http://pas.sagepub.com/content/38/2/152.full.pdf
You will understand what it is OWS is doing after reading that.
I agree with most of this as well. Except, the playing fields are not level today. That's why the rich keep getting richer (and their kids, and grand kids etc..). Abuses of power, the intertwining of investment and savings banking, government bail-outs, racism, the Enron's of the world all make it more difficult for someone like me to succeed. This movement is more about leveling the playing field then anything else. People just have not realized that yet.
I agree with this, we all need to take the blame and put it on ourselves. On top of the incentives for corporations to hire U.S. residents i think we should offer tax credit for new home purchases. The housing market is the cornerstone of growth in the U.S. economy. We need this industry to bounce back in order for us to come out of this economic problem. In order to change anything lets all step back and put some of the blame on ourselves. We all messed up so now lets fix it
the tax incentive program for buying homes might not be the best idea. I think it actually raised our national debt the last time we did this.
But you're right about taking responsibility.
Personally i think we should get rid of the tax system all together and start a sales tax with no taxes on necessary items like milk egg chess etc. Fairest way, the poor pay less taxes the rich pay more.
there isn't any tax on those items...
Yes i know that. Im saying put a sales taxes lets say 20% (but there is prob a truer number once research is done) on all items. Get rid of the income tax all together and use this as the tax for the government. There is no way to avoid taxes and no way or getting around paying them if you want the goods. Rich buy more things and therefore will pay more taxes. It makes logical sense to me but i would like to get your opinion
there is no income tax in texas, and there is no sales tax in oregon and no property tax in washington.
texas seems to be doing well, but it's up to the state whether to charge certain taxes. Gas however is federally regulated.
and there is something called a luxury tax, that does tax the richer who buy luxury items.
taxing people more isn't the solution. Tax them enough, and they'll move over seas
No i completely agree with you which is why i fear this increase in taxes for the rich (which is a bad idea). I know about the luxury tax and how texas florida and a few other taxes dont have an income tax. Im taking about a federal sales tax on all item instead of the income tax. For states that have a sales tax that is just added onto the federal sales tax. Increase the tax on the upper one percent wont do much because you will see them leave the country, same goes for some of the corporation. We also have to worry about if you do tax the upper 1% and corporations at a high rate they wont look to pursue risk investments that may lead to economic growth .Im a supply side economics fan and think that increases the taxes would just result in the decrease in growth.
That is something that the rich want you to believe so you will not raise their taxes. Same with corporations. You are conceding to propaganda. We are the largest national economy in the world right now. The only economy that is bigger is the EU and that is a collective of 28? countries.
We are a consumer nation. Do you think rich people and corporations are going to leave because we raise their taxes? Wont happen. Most corporations you see in America outside of the service industry are here in name only or close to it. Mc Donalds and Walmart are not going to pack up and leave.
On top of this we are starting to see a reverse of the made in china trend. Because of cost of living increases in China it is actually becoming more profitable to make stuff in America again. Some companies, though small in number are starting to open new plants here.
My biggest problem with all this is that Corporations are making record profits in a recession( now imagine if we WERENT in a recession). They have plenty of money, they make plenty of money. But they still choose to make stuff overseas for the most part. They refuse to raise our wages. They charge us more fees and they lobby like no tomorrow against raising taxes. All the actions point to the exact opposite of what they are saying.
Supply side economics. Economics can be complicated but lets stick to the basics.
*Consumer buys goods this increases demand.
Thus the end result is Consumers create jobs, not businesses based on the law of supply and demand. As a former business owner, i can tell you there is absolutely no reason for me to hire more help and spend more money if my current help already meets current production needs.
Thus if you want me to hire more help, i need a reason to increase production which means you need to demand i produce more goods and services.
Reaganomics was all smoke and mirrors that just doesnt work. In economics their is an equilibrium price, where price and demand are the best balance. To simplify this, price + quantity sold at this price = best long term profits at this price.
If i increase supply with no increase in demand, then i flood the market. My profit margin goes down and in theory demand goes up. But their is only so much demand can go up, because their is a limit to consumption. This is flooding the market.
What surprises me the most is this is actually an idea that often considered a conservative view but was something Karl Marx really advocated. In fact Marxism is kind of based on supply side economics.
If you go to the other end of the scale. If you raise your prices to high then people will not want them or will not be able to afford them. Thus you need to find that sweet spot and that really is the best economic policy, in my opinion. When price and demand are combined perfectly to equal the best long term profits. That is what capitalism is about, in my opinion.
If you are looking to expand into new market then yes you would look to hire, such as walmart opening a new store in new city. In doing this they would hire more people. I understand what your saying with you would hire more people for the same store, but im talking about expansion in terms of new store opening and new business opportunities not add to the existing business. I should have made that clear my bad. This expansion would not be something that would over-saturate the market, its within these expansions that you see the U.S. Also not all corporations are making record profits, the is something the media has been saying but its very few. In fact may of the corporations have downgraded their expected income for q3 with the banks release their profits this and next week. Look at these reports when they come out and you will see these are not "record" profits. And you do have to worry about the top 1% moving, i understand that american is the largest economy but if there is more profit potential in other countries due to the taxes then they would make the move. You would agree corporations are fueled by greed, so why would they stay if they could make more money elsewhere. I dont listen to the media because its become ultra this and ultra that. No news stations tell the truth, im just telling you my opinion from talking to people.
Supply side economics is about increasing the amount of goods in a market. The basic theory is that if you flood the market with goods, the goods become worth less( not worthless) and thus becomes more affordable. Thus demand goes up because now we can afford to buy more. The increased volume ( as long as you are making a profit) then makes up for the profit per item. It is the fast nickle instead of the slow dime. The problem is consumers and thus demand is not an infinite resource.
That system didnt work for the communists ( who use supply side economics though perhaps with a twist) or in Reaganomics. Even communist states today that have decent( and i use that term kind of loosely) living standards use a capitalistic economic system.
In the last 3 years a lot more companies have been making record profits than they should be. A lot of companies are making more profits than they should be. You see if they are making all these profits... but they arent hiring any help because consumer demand is low... where is the money coming from? Its a paradox and someone is telling a lie( big surprise right?) Sure they are still producing some goods and services. But they still are turning really good profits.
Of course i guess that it isnt that hard now i think about it. If they get in trouble Joe plumber who makes $40k a year will bail them out.
Taxes.- My point is this here. Corporations are fueled by greed. But your looking at the greed the wrong way, in my opinion. We are the largest consumer nation in the world. You have two choices if i raise your taxes and you are a corp. Choice A) You suck it up and pay the taxes. B) You move somewhere else.
What makes you choose A over B?Greed. You ever try to buy a Big Mac in India while sitting in Indiana? Not going to happen( it would probably still be edible when it got to you is the sad part.) . The same thing the corps tell you will drive them away, will keep them here. They want lower taxes because that is bigger profit margins for them. They cant sell it to a consumer nation if they remove their access to that nation. And i promise you if they do someone who is a little less greedy will be more than happy to take their place.
You see the corps have everyone in this stupid mentality of if you tax us we will leave. Ok so leave. Have fun NOT doing billions of dollars in business in our country this year. While you are realizing your an idiot for leaving a $14 trillion economy someone else who is willing to be a little less greedy just took your place.
Corps are fearmongers. You can raise their taxes to 80% and the service ones wont leave and we are mostly service industries anyway. OK but they can charge me more so then i am paying their tax? Another fearmonger tactic. Dont pay more. Would you pay $5000 for your pc, the one you have now it was the day you bought it instead of what you paid for it? No you would walk away. To expensive. Supply and demand at work. I am sorry but i dont need it that bad or i cant afford it so im not paying it. So they have two choices either eat some or all of the tax themselves and take it out of profits and not get such a big bonus this year or dont sell anything and make $0 while still owing creditors. Which do you think they are going to do? Drop the price.
Ok that takes care of the industries that are tied directly to serving consumers. What about manufacturing? Import Tariff. I expect any nation to do this to protect their own people. And I hold it against no country for doing it. They are protecting their own interest. We should trying protecting our own people like that in the US. Instead of trying to protect business interest.
....to be cont.
I know your understanding of supply side economics might be a little flawed or i guess it can be approached in a couple ways. "Supply-side economics holds that increased taxation steadily reduces economic trade between economic participants within a nation and that it discourages investment." Investment here is my big thing because investments help lead to an increase in GDP. gdp = c+i+g+(x-m) so if supply side economic is a way to increase investments it will in turn increase gdp. Aslo according to supply side, the new investments will create new jobs, these new jobs bring the employee a salary in which they will spend. Therefore we will also see an increase in C increasing once again the GDP. This is my feeling of a way to help the economy but like i said it is only my way and im not saying its right or the only way. But with you statement about corporation not leaving is not true. I never said stop doing business but place their corporate entity in a different country. By doing this they are able to reduce the amount of taxes they will pay, it has nothing to do with reducing sales here in America. These are my opinion and like i said im not saying im right or your wrong, we both are entitled to our own opinion
"I never said stop doing business but place their corporate entity in a different country." - They already are doing this. Most of the corporations in America only keep enough people here to effectively run the business portion that must be ran in America with "boots on ground" so to speak. Anything that they can outsource they have. This is true for most of the corporations but not all.
Well i can tell you that corporations in the Dow Jones do not do this along with many other smaller corporations. I think you are underestimating the amount of US based corporation. Go ahead an look up how many US based corporations are publicly traded (this doesnt include private corporations)
I have had people that have told me if we didnt have rich people and corps we would have no jobs. So we have to be good to them because they give us jobs( I never worked for a poor person line which is really annoying). More corporate fearmongering. The rich dont give you jobs i do every time i go to the store. They profit off the fact i need it and you produce it. They dont make the item, if they did they wouldnt of hired you. If they go away someone else will fill their place. An economy is like dipping a spoon in water and taking some out. As soon as you remove the water( the specific product) someone else is going to rush in and fill the void. that is how capitalistic economies work. They are self healing in that way so to speak.
So even if all the rich people take their corps and leave the country. More companies will spring up to supply the product. ALL the corps could close down right now and leave the US and in 5 years they would all be replaced with new ones like nothing happened. And i can promise you they wont all leave at the same time because some of them are to greedy and not only does their current greed fuel them staying but all that potential profit from filling the void of the ones that left. Sure you guys leave, ill stay and make a fortune off the void you left.