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Forum Post: Peace everyone - PEACE

Posted 2 years ago on Aug. 12, 2012, 7:13 p.m. EST by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

VQ ( peace ) gnomunny ( peace ) Odin( peace ) There are good and bad on both sides of the isle. There are plenty who are shouting for notice and some who are flying under the radar.

Still with that being said OWS is mainly a progressive movement.

I would like it if you and gnomunny and Factsrfun and I and Odin and jiffysquid and everyone who is a supporter of OWS or any Occupy movement could just get along with eachother.

250 Comments

250 Comments


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[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Peace to you DK. We should avoid personal attacks. We should embrace all non violent tactics. We discuss issues that we can all contribute to.

1st issue: Money out of politics! Money is not speech, and I will know that corps are people when Texas executes one.

What to do:

  • "move to amend" is a great path to undo this obscenity.

  • find out how you elected officials/candidates stand on this critical issue. support those that want to repeal, work against those who support it.

Any other suggestions?

Peace again

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21423) 2 years ago

Nice post DKA. My wish, too, is that all these good people, and all the other good people on the forum, can get along. No reason not to, really.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hey BW - you are a very good person who tries to get people working together and I so much admire and appreciate your efforts. It is a difficult task - to say the least - but it is in everyone's best interest. {:-])

Hey - check this out if you have not already been there and done that.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/students-converge-obama-office-reclaim-voice/

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hey BW - you are a very good person who tries to get people working together and I so much admire and appreciate your efforts. It is a difficult task - to say the least - but it is in everyone's best interest. {:-])

Hey - check this out if you have not already been there and done that.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/students-converge-obama-office-reclaim-voice/

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21423) 2 years ago

Nice. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I am? and you are welcome. {:-])

[-] 2 points by Cocreator (306) 2 years ago

General Assembly,Peoples Audit Committee, Peoples Arrest Committee, Peoples Court, We are all elected, Seize the assets of all the finacial terrorist bankers, distribute to the people..

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I support this.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

To do anything real DKA we will have to raise taxes on the wealthy there are those that will oppose that to the end. They come here and say many things, except the thing that in end the end we must do.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Definitely, 90% tax rate on income over $1mill including cap gains, passive income, carried interest, & cut all deduction for 1%'rs except deduction for creating American jobs.

[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Neither Democrats nor Republicans will "raise taxes on the wealthy" for fear they'll lose their meal tickets. Like Chris Hedges says, there's "no daylight between them" any more.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

That's BS. The parties are vastly different. Especially on tax issues. And once OWS leads the way for the rest of the country to begin moving away from the right wing journey we've been on for 30 years, we will pursuade the dems to create a 90% tax rate on income over $1mill, & cut taxes for the working class.

[-] -2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

What about the Clinton years? Dems pushed the corporate agenda and the continued military build up, the police state build up, and the treasonous repeal of Glass Steagall and the rest of the dismantling of the banking regs. What was different then?? Sure it would be nice if all it took was a change of the party in office, however that is not the case as we have seen that it just does,. . nothing.

We can change our selves and our culture, we must!

Search; eco-village, permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, degrowth, etc.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"clinton"! "Dems"! Always partisan attacks on Dems. Never on repubs whose conservative policies are at the root of ALL our problems! Of all the Dem failures you cite,they always include Dems voting for CONSERVATIVE policies! But you never mention that. Just more partisan anti Dem non sense.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Changing the party is not enough. Doing the same thing we have as citizens is not enough. The examples of dem failures (nothing on repub failure?) have the common feature of being conservative policies. But we must vote. If we give up we leave the power to the conservatives.

We must elect progressives and the difference has to be people protesting and agitateing for progressive change. So WE wuold be the difference. WE are the change we've been waiting for.

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

That is the point, these are not Dem. or Rep. policies, they are CORPORATE policies! Either party in and the Corporate Policies will continue. We have more pressing issues to be exploring, than; what of the two-sides-of-the-same-coin to support for the next period of corporate rule. We need to be working to end corporate rule, not supporting it.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21423) 2 years ago

Well said.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Who is not wotrking towards ending corporate rule?. I am working towards that. I am working towards that on the street, with every person I discuss this catastrophy with. And with my support for Move to amend and many other organizations and movements. I am also working toward ending corporate rule by attempting to take one of the parties back from the corp 1% plutocrats. Even though I am ridiculed for trying by others who claim to know better. I work towards that goal when I vote for progressives, and when I agitate all pols to repeal the damaging conservative/corporate laws.

So you say we need to be working to end corporate rule. Ok. But while you were criticizing my tactic, you forgot to mention your strategy. Please let me know how I can help. And please please don't tell me I have to give up my right to vote.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Support Move to Amend.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Well Said. I'm not telling anyone not to vote but it's not my concern how they vote. That isn't the point of Occupy as far as I know either.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"two-sides-of-the-same-coin" I think I have that bumper sticker. More hopelessness. Guess we gotta give up!

Wheres you "great & positive" orgs you claim to promote?

This seems like just another negative comment designed to convince us to give up our right to vote.

[-] -2 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

How clever. More dems are NOT the problem than repubs. We must elect more progressives & vote out more conservatives, and pressure all pols to pass the progressive solutions we need to correct the inequity and catastrophy that conservative policies created. That would be us taking back the govt from the 1% plutocrats (the problem) and implementing an agenda that helps the 99% (the solution).

[-] -2 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

The age-old "lesser of the two evils" argument doesn't fly any more, spinster:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"spinster"? what is that? an insult? We must take the govt back from the 1% by electing good progressives and voting out evil conservatives. We must end money in politics. we must enact more election reform. I'm not talkin about lesser of 2 evils I'm saying take the lesser of 2 evils and make them NOT evil. We can't do that with the republicans because there ain't nothing to work with. But the dems have many "good" people in office.

Hows that?

[-] -3 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Here is how's that, circular-logic virtual persona:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You haven't really made a point. You're against electing good progressives (like Elizabeth Warren, or Letitia James). Are you against votingout evil conservative (like Eric Cantor, Rand Paul).

That is the kind of slow progress we must attempt if we are going turn the dems from lesser of 2 evils to a good server of the 99%.

What are you for? I hear your general criticism, and I dismiss it. What are you for?

[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Why do you keep trying to draw me into partisan arguments that I have already made very clear serve no purpose other than to divide the people and keep them fighting each other rather than their oppressers?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Who are our oppressors?

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[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

OK, but how will spam affect it?

How will spam lead us?

How will spam cure the housing crises?

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[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Spam stocks!!!

That's the ticket!

Buy up all the stock in spam!!

No thought involved! Just spam!!

[-] -2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Surrender, resistance is futile.

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] -1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

The system is broken and the spectrum is false. Revolution is the only solution:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Well you've changed your position with every volley, going from hopelessness to a final solution. That's typical RW MO.

OK, let's hear it. Tell us how the "Revolution" works and what problems it solves.

[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Spam smells even more broken, so why are you promoting spam?

If spam is the answer?

What was the question?

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Since spam is your answer.

What was the question?

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[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

He's got nothing but empty ignorant criticism. I've heard it all before. I agree with much of it. But without solutions, a plan of action he looks too much like another republican who wants to discourage progressive dem leaning OWS supporters from voting.

He's a fraud. I fart in his general direction.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

LOL - in search of the holy grail - watch for the knights of neep.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

LMFAO. very good DK. Didja see Eric Idle @ the olympic closing ceremonies?

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Found one;

2012 London Olympic Games: Eric Idle at Closing Ceremonies ... ►►

universalsports.com/.../2012-london-olympic-games-e...New1 day ago Eric Idle of Monty Python gets the crowd singing to "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" as the Games ...

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

No - actually I didn't watch the games - my TV reception is poor where I live and I don't do cable or satellite.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You might be able to find it online. He did "always look at the bright side of life" very funny.

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[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

ex-cellent I'll try to remember and use it.

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[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Sounds reasonable.

Solidarity

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[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I got another PM today from the NJPD character - I copied it and sent it to jart to see if she knew what was up with it.

Funny thing - what you said before about right away associating NJPD with an acronym for New Jersey Police Department (?) - That was my 1st exact thought as well - it kinda screams it at you.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I think I saw some of that about a week ago no? Maybe the mods should see any new ones you've gotten. I don't doubt that the police are on the site for nefarious reasons.

[-] 0 points by funkytown (-374) 2 years ago

Even if they did, how long before they catch on to say, wait a minute, why are we paying for American irresponsibility? I'd give it one tax return and then, poof.

[-] -1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Then please tell us why 1% Kings spend sooo much Citizens United secret funds to replace Dems with their Cons in government??

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Both eat mashed potatoes, too. Only one gets the lobster.

The jokers never quit, People!

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

the other prefers filet mignon

[-] -1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Rare I hope!

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

no medium well

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

MW: How to ruin good food!

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

naah

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

You can get beef jerky at Plaid Pantry.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

never got the hang of beef jerky. you are not suggesting that going with medium well is like having beef jerky, are you?? lol one of my kids brought me out for the best filet mignon in the state on father's day.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Rare or jerky, I'll take rare and taste the meat.

People, they wreck good and good government, that's why we have to:

Get registered and get out the VOTE!! NOW!!!

http://www.rockthevote.com/rtv_voter_registration.html?source=rtv.com-homegraphic

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[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Hand no keys, to 1%-worshiping GOPs!

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Enough with your BS.

Go talk the supremacists and corpoRATist's into opting out.

They have an obvious low IQ and will perhaps adopt you as their leader.

[-] 1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

The only references I have made to "opting out" were those which were quoting you. I am advocating that people "opt in" to the Revolution, which is a concept posers like you can only post Wikipedia entries about:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

How do we opt in to your revolution? What must we do?

[-] 1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

I already answered this question less than an hour ago and specifically for you.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Nope. Not true. What should we do. How can we revolt? And what will we have when your revolution succeeds.?

[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

I already answered this question less than an hour ago and specifically for you.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

You can lie about it all you want, but your question has already been answered. The baseless insults you post below cannot change that.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You have no answer because you are a fraud.

You have no plan, only empty ignorant criticism.

You are a clown. And not very funny.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Isn't spam a lie too?

Just what's in that stuff?

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Ridiculous misconception.

It get's lesser exponentially via natural progression! If we applied it consistently, from Washington, by Van Buren we'd have had near perfection. By now, our pols would be virtual gods!!

It's only when WE DON'T VOTE or VOTE FOR THE GREATER EVIL we find ourselves in the fucking mess we bitch about now!!

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Where have you been? OWS and all Occupy movements are part of the revolution.

A NON-VIOLENT Revolution.

So go away now you bother me kid.

[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Yes... OWS and the Occupy Movement IS about revolution, whereas your postings to this forum are about everything BUT revolution:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

"Revolution" is not about posting Wikipedia entries to low-traffic online forums as you have done below and elsewhere repeatedly:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Revolution From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search "Revolt" redirects here. For other uses, see Revolt (disambiguation). For other uses, see Revolution (disambiguation) and Revolutions (disambiguation). Page semi-protected Part of a series on Revolution French Revolution Methods[show] Causes[show] History[show]

A coloured voting box.svg Politics Portal

v t e

A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turn around") is a fundamental change in power or organizational structures that takes place in a relatively short period of time.

Aristotle described two types of political revolution:

Complete change from one constitution to another

Modification of an existing constitution.[1]

Revolutions have occurred through human history and vary widely in terms of methods, duration, and motivating ideology. Their results include major changes in culture, economy, and socio-political institutions.

Scholarly debates about what does and does not constitute a revolution center around several issues. Early studies of revolutions primarily analyzed events in European history from a psychological perspective, but more modern examinations include global events and incorporate perspectives from several social sciences, including sociology and political science. Several generations of scholarly thought on revolutions have generated many competing theories and contributed much to the current understanding of this complex phenomenon.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Your breath is bad. Use democracy!

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Insults = Weak Arguments: The system is broken. Revolution is the only solution:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] -1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Then you lost with your first people are stupid reply. The system needs Votes!! Your mind is bad, like your breath.

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] 1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

I made no such "people are stupid" reply, as anyone who is not stupid can see:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

Your "halitosic" post below is yet another insult because you have nothing else to offer.

[-] 0 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

Your brain is halitosic, people are the solution, embrace democracy, rinse and repeat.

Quit the Cons!

Get People REGISTERED and get out the VOTE!!

http://www.gottavote.org/en/?choose-state=true

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Have you ever split wood? It is our job to drive the wedge. Clinton did and Obama may yet before he's through, but one thing we all know is the every Republican will take every chance to cut taxes, and will fight to the end any increase, and any system pushed in one direction only and never corrected will fail.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

swamp oak doesn't split

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"All we are saying is give peace a chance" Lennon

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[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

just takes longer, I use two wedges and a sledge hammer, mesquite can be tough too

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

you could split a whole cord of wood in the time it takes you to split one chunk of swamp oak. it's best to just stick a flower pot on it.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

CorpoRATist's in government will continue to push for tax relief and subsidies for the wealthy and the corpoRATion's and continue to pile it onto the backs of working people..

They gotta go - all of em - Dem. & Rep.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I have seen a few Dems willing to raise taxes, it's like a go, no go test, either you are for the people and raising taxes or you are not, while I have found some Dems willing, I have found no Rs, so for me i see a clear choice as to who I want to have more power and who I want to have less.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The clear choice is to support all good politicians and replace all bad politicians.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

well to me the good ones are willing to raise taxes on the wealthy and say so out loud, and I look for them and support whichever of them I think has the best chance of winning....

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Promote individuals that promote good issues.

Sounds like a plan.

We also need to boot those who flip flop from a good position to a bad position.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

would good issues be continuing not to prosecute the banksters, and defending the secretive TPP negotiations?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Good issues would be pushing for charges to be brought and prosecuted on the banksters who caused the economic meltdown and are processing illegal foreclosures and are using predatory lending practices and who are using usury.

Good issues would include dragging TPP out into the light of day.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

by the time they get around to prosecuting the banksters....half of them will be pushing up 'daisies'...maybe us too. i mean, what's taking so long?

  1. is there any call by the president to bring the TPP out into the "light of day", and..

  2. would secretive negotiations have continued if Public Citizen had not exposed this abomination, and brought it into "the light of day"... to the American people?

answers...1. no, still waiting, 2. undoubtedly

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

We need public pressure/involvement - the public is not gonna get the news from MSM - so it is up to the internet community to spread the word.

I have been writing open letters and copying them out onto twitter as well as posting them here for others on the forum to see and share.

OPEN LETTERS To The Fed. Gov. & The People :

http://occupywallst.org/forum/is-the-government-of-the-usa-trading-places-with-t/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/an-open-letter-to-the-people-of-the-usa-and-to-the/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/of-the-people-by-the-people-for-the-people-an-open/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/an-open-letter-to-the-state-department-to-the-worl/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/playtime-is-over-time-to-get-adults-to-do-some-par/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/open-letter-to-the-government-oath-of-office-72820/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/todays-modern-money-banking-investments-economy-an/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/give-em-all-a-madoff-makeover-from-riches-to-rags-/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/wardeath-by-drone-is-it-really-a-good-policy-or-is/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/letter-to-the-president-and-all-members-of-governm/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/let-us-get-our-priorities-syraight-an-open-letter-/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/proper-reform-what-do-you-think/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/standing-on-the-very-brink-of-doom-an-open-letter-/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/send-a-letter-to-the-potus-and-share-it-with-the-p/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/an-open-letter-one-comment-from-a-conversation-on-/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/an-open-letter-concerning-minimum-wage-though-i-wo/

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

that's great, as the cumulitive effect of all the resistance we can muster will only help bring this rotten system to 'heel', but primarily we must reach out to the 'unaware' educate them, as you suggested, and restore their sense of 'outrage', something that has been missing in this country for a long time. most probably, we have been lulled into a perpetual political slumber by the MSM (read Chomsky's Media Control) due to the corporate-owned media' vested interests

unfortunately 5 million letters do not equal:

  1. 5 million people boycotting, the most egregious of the corporations...perhaps Wal-Mart

nor does it have the same impact as:

  1. 5 million people protesting in the streets

letters to newspapers, politicians, and anyone else who has a stake in the corrupt status quo are 'definitely' part of the 'cumulitive resistance' that we need to topple the plutocracy that we live in

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

And so that is why I say - it is up to protests to make the public aware that there are major problems and educate from on the street - But - it is also up to the internet community to spread the word - spread the news - as it aint gonna happen on TV.

A fire storm of protest letters to everyone - government and media would be great - especially shared out to the public that these protests are happening by sharing them as hard copy handouts at street protests and as Internet handouts shared on social media.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i can agree to that, but on the protests, 'the more..the merrier', consequently the more the impact. this 'entrenched system' needs to be frightened by our resolve, along with all forms of other resistance

[-] 0 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

I think everyone needs to begin to come to understand that this system has passed structural criticality. There's no fixing what exists. It's collapse is imminent. We have 2 options, honest default, and debt jubilee, or hyperinflation.
Our goal should be to develop local communities with local government to build the new system in a stable, and robust way decentralizing power.

If you study complex systems theory, and particularly the specific properties of structured criticality, you see this as a repeating pattern in societies. (Tainter, "Collapse of Complex Societies")

The forces of nature are pushing for structured criticality to reach a natural new equilibrium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_criticality

That means cascade failure to a new power structure that is less concentrated at the top, and more distributed at the bottom, like a cone of sand, that keeps growing taller.

What does that mean for us???

War? - very possible to the extent of quite likely

Break-up of the US - Highly possible, The USSR and the USA are not that different, and it's a myth we "won" the cold war, we may simply have been the last to lose.

Collapse of the global monetary system - Quite certain and imminent

Supply chain chaos, food shortages, etc - if we don't have a stable money system that get's adopted quickly, this will become more likely, and more extreme.

Practical default of "entitlement" programs - a near certainty in practical terms.

There are several take-aways from all this: don't make peoples lives depend on highly scaled systems i.e. national (medicare, medicaid, social security), they are prone to collapse, then the people lose all. It's much better to have them distributed, and localized - this creates more volatility in the short term, but you don't have a complete mega die-off when the system fails.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

A bad position is a bad position no matter how they got there, while I agree that consistency of thought shows integrity, growth does as well, to attack the process, "flip-flopping" vs attacking the position, (trans-virginal ultrasounds for instance) is somewhat akin to "war on terrorism" so though I do think it has merits to look at changes in position I find that studying the positions and actions are of most importance.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes - a voting record would speak best to consistency and where the support is placed.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

if they have one, matt turned me on to this site, you may have been there:

http://votesmart.org/

It can be kind of hard to tell exactly what the different amendments and bills do really but with time you can sort through it. Local people are harder to find stuff on but maybe OWS can help with that.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes - http://votesmart.org/ - Looks to be a very handy tool. Pop in an issue that has come before a vote and you see who voted and for or against.

There are politicians who seem to never vote - they are a waste of space and should also get booted.

There are likely many individuals in the movements who are up to date on local happenings and where the information can be accessed. If they could publish that would be a great help/asset.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Local news if available can be a good source of information of what is going on currently. So people can plan to attend and voice their opinions.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Occupy Phoenix gets a mention on Aug. 19 there is a planing meeting, these people have given some coverage, the local major paper is ran by Sheriff Joe's brother in law or at least that's the last I heard, so you can imagine what we get from them.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

DK what I'm saying here is the 1% will let you do just about anything but come after their money, the best way to tell that you have a real fighter is someone willing to take them on where they really care. There is method to my madness.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I am not calling you mad.

We need to focus on issues.

Get Good politicians in office.

Get Bad politicians out of office.

Remove personhood from artificial beings ( non-biological ).

Get money out of government.

etc

[-] -3 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Keep driving your wedges, poser. That's what keeps the people fighting each other and not their oppressers:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Just how full of shit are you?, you quote Chris Hedges talking about no daylight between them are you trying to say that's a good thing? just what the hell are you saying?

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

"Just how full of shit how are you?" just because you are frustrated, there's no reason to attack someone who disagrees with you. there's 'little daylight' between them. how's that? both parties answer to the 1%........not us

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I don't need to be "frustrated" to speak truth, this guy comes out quoting Hedges suggesting there is no daylight between Ds and Rs then plays coy with me when i say we shoul;d drive a wedge between them. That is not at all frustrating, it usually takes more work to uncover a full of shit troll.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i disagree...his points are valid, no matter what, if any agenda he may have

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

and that's what makes democracy great you don't think he's full of shit, but I do...

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

granted, this is a great country that has gone off track. the same things we abhor in our political system should not be accepted here

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

sorry I didn't get the memo, are you the new Keeper of the One True Way?

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

no i am not the" keeper" of anything, or anyone. if we are going to move ahead..progress, we have to all reject incendiary speech, and accept, and work out out differences in a more peaceful way

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I welcome all willing to raise taxes on the wealthy, the others I identified as supporters of the 1% and try to sway them, but they don't tend to listen to reason.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

the good initiatives that are taken on at the local and state levels often spread to other states. states with smaller populations are at an advantage, i believe because one's voice is louder than in a more populous state

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

eisenhower was probably the last good repub President as he spoke out against the dangers of the MID eloquently. although my mom, and dad were dems, they both voted for him. in answer to your question, i would say the dems support public funding on elections. this has been an issue for years, and years. i can't understand how we still do not not have this.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

we passed it in 1998 in AZ, it has started to make some difference, it's only state races, but has been fought by some since it was passed the GOP just striped it of some of it's money and they got the Robert's court to rule that the people of AZ was not allowed to match the money spent by the wealthy, so it may not be effective going forward, if we don't rethink money and it's power we will lose our democracy outright

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

even if we just raised taxes to the levels during the Reagan administration, we would be far better off

both parties answer to corrupt money

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

or Eisenhower, both parties take money, but one of them wants public funding and one don't maybe if they had more seats in congress we could get public funding and get the money out, do you happen to know which party supports public funding of elections?

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

and vice versa, of course

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

are you speaking for him now, or did you have something to say?

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i speak for myself, agree or disagree with whomever i choose.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

your "vice versa" doesn't make much sense then

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Nope sorry too broad a brush stroke there. If they all supported the 1% - we would already be in labor camps.

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

follow the money trail...both parties answer to the 1%

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Corruption will give money to both parties. Voting records/habits show things more clearly. But individual recipients of corrupt money could also be something to keep track of.

[-] -2 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

even holding the voting records of our elected officials to account can become a lesson in futility, as 'vote counting', and 'trading votes' are common practices which perpetuate the rotten status quo. unrelated amendments that are attached to bills are another problem. these 'practices' along with 'lobbyist's spin' are used to deceive people into thinking that they are for the people's interests. so, it becomes near impossible to discern who the bad guys are, and who the good guys are

In the end though, both parties answer to corporate, and banking interests, not ours

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Try to forward ideas of how to retake government - don't say it is futile - or you might as well just log off and go hide in your basement.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

there are few political answers now as this entrenched system is incorrigible. we need to tirelessly keep reaching out, by getting them off corporate-owned MSM, re-educate them as to what really has been going on, and help restore their sense of rage, and confidence that if we all band together..we can be victorious

both parties answer to the big-monied interests, not ours

[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

That's a coincidence. I was thinking about that 'vote trading' just this morning, and how it skews people's perceptions. A slippery slope when you're trying to figure out who is on our side.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

about the best you can do is look at the voting records, and then compare them to what Public Citizen, or Common Cause is saying. they are the altruistic, agenda-less experts to my knowledge

one scenario is, say the repubs have an agenda that it clearly not beneficial to the constituents of one of their colleagues...the repub leader-ship will let him slide if they have enough votes to get the bill passed, hence he will look courageous to the people back home. there are numerous scenarios though, and they often cross party lines to further an agenda that is clearly not in the people's interests

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I haven't checked Public Citizen or Common Cause yet, but it seems to me that it would be just about impossible to tell in some circumstances whether someone was voting their conscience, or just back-scratching. That's why I would take any politicians' voting record with a grain of salt. Bribery is rampant, whether it's an envelope of cash or the promise of a job for your sister's kid. And it certainly crosses that center aisle. I'll give up my Dem vote this time if you give up your Rep vote next time. It does seem, though, that if you paid enough attention to the person, you might be able to get a feel of what kind of person they are, but that would be incredibly time-consuming. You'd have to study politics 24-7.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Did you see the vid's? It is just not to be believed until you see him doing it on camera. Really incredible. Thanks for the link I'll have to check it out. Just took a quick look at the link site - yeah this looks to be good - thanks again. {:-])


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (3408) from St Louis, MO 1 minute ago

Here's a website that lists all of Romney's lies to date. It's hilarious!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/12/1082975/-EVERY-Romney-Lie-In-One-Place-UPDATED ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -3 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Haven't seen the vids yet. Most YouTube clips won't run on my machine. Flash Player problem.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Mittens loves the concept - only problem is - he likes lying so much he kinda loses track of em and ends up lying about his lies - which somehow just does not work out the same as how the concept is stated. {:-])


[-] 2 points by gnomunny (3408) from St Louis, MO 7 minutes ago

Yeah, "repeat the lie often enough and you begin to believe it yourself." Don't know who the quote's from but it's often true. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Here's a website that lists all of Romney's lies to date. It's hilarious!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/12/1082975/-EVERY-Romney-Lie-In-One-Place-UPDATED

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Wow - ummm - wow - that is a tough one.

My Grandfather had Alzheimer's - He was fortunate in a way that when he was not in contact with reality - he was reliving some of the best times of his life - and he had many to relive. But when he had times of clarity and found himself basically helpless in a nursing home - He was devastated.


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (3409) from St Louis, MO 1 minute ago

Some return to those carefree days, but not in a good way. At least it doesn't seem in a good way, but after witnessing what time does to people, I sometimes wonder if dementia, Alzheimer's, or any other mind-robbing illness doesn't have a silver-lining in some way. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Yeah, it's a tough call. Fading in and out of reality would be hard to deal with.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

True true - wouldn't it be nice if all we had to concern us - were the little things?


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (3408) from St Louis, MO 0 minutes ago

Thanks, DK. You know it ultimately doesn't matter all that much either way. Too many things to concentrate on that are really important. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Some return to those carefree days, but not in a good way. At least it doesn't seem in a good way, but after witnessing what time does to people, I sometimes wonder if dementia, Alzheimer's, or any other mind-robbing illness doesn't have a silver-lining in some way.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Hope you find success soon.


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (3408) from St Louis, MO 1 minute ago

heh heh heh. Yeah, me too. I probably won't do it though. I'll figure out a way to get the cash from the little hustler one way or the other. ;-) ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Thanks, DK. You know it ultimately doesn't matter all that much either way. Too many things to concentrate on that are really important.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Heh heh heh heh - I just got a picture in my mind of the car - missing tires - and sitting on cinder-blocks.


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (3408) from St Louis, MO 0 minutes ago

Hell no. The little bastard. Pretty irresponsible, I tell ya. I still hold out hope. I know where the car is though. The devil on my right shoulder is telling me to go over there and disable it. He's not living there, by the way, it's his grandma's house, so I can't just go over and start pounding on the door. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink | Mod: ban comments threads admin edit remove

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

heh heh heh. Yeah, me too. I probably won't do it though. I'll figure out a way to get the cash from the little hustler one way or the other. ;-)

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Shit - that's right - I keep forgetting. Hear from the gr8 nephew yet?


[-] 1 points by gnomunny (3408) from St Louis, MO 6 minutes ago

Haven't seen the vids yet. Most YouTube clips won't run on my machine. Flash Player problem. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Hell no. The little bastard. Pretty irresponsible, I tell ya. I still hold out hope. I know where the car is though. The devil on my right shoulder is telling me to go over there and disable it. He's not living there, by the way, it's his grandma's house, so I can't just go over and start pounding on the door.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i learned about how that works years ago, i think when i was a member of common cause. it is disheartening, but the more people that know about it, the better. unfortunately local politics has become the rehearsal hall for the big time, so you can see it there too, albeit on a simpler more personal level. i witnessed this in a good 'pay-to-play bill (bidding on contracts) before our town. i cannot remember enough of it to go over it here though. it was defeated for supposedly good reasons, not

one thing, i left out of my synopsis on how vote counting, and trading works, although it is admittedly conjecture: 'after repeating the justification for voting for a bad law to his constituents back home, the elected rep too becomes convinced that he did not sell his soul to the highest bidder'

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Yeah, "repeat the lie often enough and you begin to believe it yourself." Don't know who the quote's from but it's often true.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

"you have to study politics 24-7." that's it exactly. 'obfuscation' is one of the tools that is used to bewilder us. you would have to cancel your particpation in those week-end picnics, and your time with the little woman, and the kiddies. much of this convoluted 'vote-counting and trading' does not take place in Congress, but instead in lobbyists' offices. this is where it is all worked out long before the actual vote in the not-so-hallowed halls of Congress. before the vote, the lobbyists pressure, and remind our reps, who his TRUE $$$ constituents are, and of course as most of us know, it is not us, but instead its big banking, and corporate $ interests. of course, before the rep leaves for home, he is given a good spiel (to be repeated over and over again) to 'the busy with life' folks back home. sometimes the amendment that was attached to the bill can also provide him/her with the 'cover', and justification that he needs for his vote...which often has horrible consequences to most of us...ie. neoliberalism. that's how it works, i have come to find out, and that is also how this system has been perpetuated for so long

both parties answer to corrupt corporate, and banking interests...not ours

[-] -1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I agree completely with your assessment of what's going on behind closed doors. It took me a little while thinking about it, and that's why I mentioned to someone the other night that it probably doesn't matter who voted for or against a particular bill. It's the TOTAL, not the individual votes. The numbers, and the politicians, can be manipulated. Too easy.

What really amazes me are the people that still trust 'the system' enough to believe that all we have to do is get the right combo of people in DC and, voila, sunny days ahead! One thing I know about politics with absolute certainty is, whereas you may have a certain degree of freedom when you're playing on the local stage, mayors, alderman, etc., the only way the big boys will let you play is if you agree to play by their rules. That's why so many seemingly good politicians (while still local) seem to change so much by the time they get to DC. Sometimes the difference is huge. It's also why I believe the most good someone can do is focus more on local politics.

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Hey they all breath air too does that mean something too? yes the rich people have the money, is that news to you? now the real issue is are you smart enough to watch what they do, to hear what they say, and to discern between them, if you can't sort through their bullshit, we can help you...

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i "watch what they do", and 'i watch what they don't do'

i "hear what they say", and 'i hear their silence'

both parties answer to the interests of corrupt money

[-] -2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Yep.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

you seem to have a little trouble sorting things out but stick around and keep reading you may get a feel for how huge the differences are, or you may just be a supporter of the 1% worried about their money, time will tell

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Reach over and hug the Republicans if you want to troll, that's what Obama did when he got to Washington,

How do you think it turned out?

But like I said before your kind will say anything, but, "It's damn time we raise taxes!!"

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Voter suppression takes many forms, the one you practice is well known to most, here’s someone talking about some of your friends:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/13/game-of-thrones-author-republicans_n_1773283.html

[-] -1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Voter suppression is just one of many tactics employed in rigging the elections, which are staged between puppet candidates of two parties controlled by the same elite interests anyway:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

So getting back to Hedges saying there was no light between them and me saying we should drive a wedge, sounds like you think that's a bad ideal, please explain.

[-] 0 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Your sentence makes no sense whatsover. This, on the other hand, makes all the sense in the world:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

0 points by MadInMedford (1) 11 hours ago Neither Democrats nor Republicans will "raise taxes on the wealthy" for fear they'll lose their meal tickets. Like Chris Hedges says, there's "no daylight between them" any more. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

Your kind always depends on people having a short memory, but really? how stupid do you think we are?

[-] -1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Nothing I posted there is inconsistent with anything I posted here. As to how stupid I think partisan hacks like you are, well...

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

the only "wedge" that will be driven in is the one that the corrupt elite need so they can continue fleecing us

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

this thread is an appeal for peace. we are both in this together, and have the same goal of toppling the corrupt status quo, so i see no reason for you to attack me personally. that doesn't help.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Keep up your voter suppression efforts if you want, we welcome all kinds but don't expect anybody to fooled by your 1% loving ass.

[-] -1 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Keep driving your wedges, poser. That's what keeps the people fighting each other and not their oppressers:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-cannot-be-the-problem-and-solve-the-problem/

And your references below to me having "Republican friends" - implying that I am the flip side of you - are laughable.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Isn't spam the ultimate wedge?

A wedge of spam here, a wedge of spam there, and soon all will smell of spam.

How will spam rule the World?

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

and you keep hugging your Republican friends and hoping for a few crumbs from the 1% troll

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

your argument would be remarkably simular to mine.., in justifying that their is a corrupt two party duopoly that puts the inerests of the big monied people ahead of ours. both parties are incorrigibly corrupt

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Not so - the republican party has been clearly co-opted by the corpoRATions and the corpoRATions are working hard to make that a 100% co-option - while they also have a toe-hold ( foot-hold ? ) in the democrats they do not visibly own as many of the democrats as it is obvious that they do of the republicans.

This spread of the corpoRATion disease needs to be stopped.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

agreed, the spread of corporate disease needs to be stopped.

but both parties answer to corporate, and banking interests, not ours

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

this is nothing but voter suppression spam...

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

hardly...'i encourage people to vote', as i definitely will. i do not tell people who to vote for though

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

the less you tell people the better, I think

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i agree, no one likes to be told what to do

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

they may not like it, but sometimes you have to do things people don't like if you want to change things, I mostly just tell people about how evil the Republican Party is and hope that they want to do the right thing.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

everyone has their own style, and we should not crimp anyone's. we are both going in the same direction

[+] -4 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

There is no duopoly.

It's a blatant lie.

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i do not agree with you, but i respect your right to disagree with me.

both parties serve the interests of the 1%. not ours

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

When something does not exist.

It's not a question of agreement.

It's a question of belief.

Care to test yours?

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

my beliefs have been 'time-tested.' if we are going to progress, we have to move forward, and work together, especially with people who disagree with us, but share the same goals

Both parties answer to corporate, and banking interests, not ours

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Tested by time?

How does that work?

Just as a question, how does forcing teachers to teach creationism fit into your paradigm?

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

this type of bickering about small divisive issues keeps us from taking care of the big things

The two parties both answer to the interests of the corrupt elite

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

You fail to offer explanations. That's not bickering.

I'll ask one more.

Who specifically are these elites, and what is their philosophy?

Vagaries are of little use.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

our problems go far beyond the koch brothers

both parties answer to corrupt big money

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

our problems stem from long before ALEC had gained so much influence, and is at worst only part of the problem. the main problem being

both parties answer to corrupt big monied special interests, not ours

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

True the Kochs and their cohorts have been actively dismantling our precious democracy for many, many years. Even before they founded ALEC.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

neoliberalism is what it is commonly referred to, so i will go with that, despite knowing that it seems, but is not, connected to being today's liberal, or progressive. ayn rand is a scary person, and for such a smart man as greenspan, to sign on and endorse her principles of an unregulated laissez-faire market shows me, that many of the so-called experts are stupid for not taking the human condition into account, in this case, greed.

i believe it is a duopoly as both parties have, and still are selling us the bill of goods which is basically that neoliberalism, and the economic policies that emanate from it, are a good thing, ie. free-trade, and trickle-down. it probably started with Reagan, but it has been carried on through four other presidencies after that, including two democratic ones

ALEC has support from both parties, but it is over-whelmingly supported by conservative republicans, i know. it is geared to put corporate interest ahead of ours. you cannot discount the bi-partisan support of, perhaps a slew of laws that were passed to the detriment of 'us', and to the benefit of corporate, and banking interests. nor can you neglect to look at how 'vote-counting', and 'vote-trading' works, and it works mostly to our detriment, with the exception of bringing home more 'pork' possibly

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

There is no duopoly. It's usage here is pure propaganda.

ALEC works the other way, and it's only in more recent times that Dems were influenced, an influence that is attributable to the neolibe(R)tarians.that own and operate ALEC.

There was little if any bipartisanship that can be equated with ALEC written laws.

Such misinterpretations are detrimental,

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i didn't know this was a test, but you are right, i did not answer all of your questions. their philosophy is that of neoliberalism, and which i believe began in some school in Austria, and was promoted at the the Chicago School of Economis under Milton Friedman. it was also promoted by some lady named Ayn Rand, and Alan Greespan was a deciple of hers i think. Ronald Reagan was the first president to my knowledge to institue this form of economics (didn't google, could be wrong about some of this, feel free to correct me), and the teachings have spread to universities throughout the country. there is starting to be some backlash from students, especially in Ivy League schools who want a more humane Keynsian type of economics taught. gradually, this movement seems to be having a positive effect on the ethics that we will need to bring us to a better place..,where 'people' are put before profit.

both parties serve the interests of the 1%, not vice-versa

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I quit calling it neoliberalism when I found out who is really behind it.

I now refer to the whole enchilada as neolibe(R)tarianism.

It's a more accurate descriptor, as it is the philosophy that can infect either of the parties and create the illusion of a duopoly, in this country, or any other for that matter...

They like to spread it by distributing copies of Ayn Rand "novels".

This is well documented.

If what you are implying is true, please show me the equivalent of ALEC, on what is described as the "left" in the US.

[-] -2 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

the corrupt elites are people in the private sector, and political system who rig that system in their favor, for their benefit, and it is to our severe detriment

both parties answer to the corrupt "elites' interests not ours

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

That's not specific, and you failed to answer the philosophy question.

Sadly enough. I can help you, but I have wonder whether you will add it into your thinking.

Here's a list of 26 provable names.

http://www.politicususa.com/bernie-sanders-exposes-26-billionaires-buying-2012-election.html

The philosophic in question is unquestionably randian libe(R)tarianism. I hope this helps you see things more clearly.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

It is but it's not. It's not that clear cut. Example: Neil Barofsky on the Corrupting 'Elixir of Power'

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

That's what makes it such an effective propaganda term.

What is telling to me, is that every time I have asked for proof, it has fallen flat on it's ass.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

you never got back to me, unless it was through "sock puppet" so what do you think of OWS driving a wedge between the Democrats and the Republicans, so that maybe Chris Hedges would be able to see some daylight, that seems it would be a good productive thing to do, what do you think? or are you just a "poser"?

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Just because Chris Hedges has given up is no reason I should, if you see him let him know I'd like to chat a bit to see what he thinks can be done.

[-] -2 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

CH has issues.

[-] -1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

I agree with you that taxes on the rich need to go up. And a big increase on the millionaires and especially hundred millionaires and billionaires.

I would like to add that we could end income taxes for those making less than $75,000 dollars within a year if we would reform monetary policy and taxed the federal reserve.

This puts money back in the pockets of the 99% directly.

Currently our monetary policy works to prop up big banks, big corporations, and the 1%. The federal reserve introduces money into the economy by loaning banks money at insanely low interest... sometimes as low as .01%... the banks keep the money on deposit... it collects profitable interest which pays for FAT ceo bonuses... then the banks loan the money to the people at high interest. Does anyone understand how dumb this is? Not only does this current monetary policy prop up the 1% but it causes inflation making the 99%'s dollar value shrink while the banks get fat. The GAO audit exposed that the Federal Reserve gave over a TRILLION to Bank of America alone. How does a monetary policy that gives a trillion dollars to a fraudulent bank help society? Do you know how much interest you can accrue from a trillion dollars? It's like making money from nothing... FAT CAT CITY for ceos at the banks.

It is possible to rework monetary policy, end inflation, and introduce currency to society through job creation and city building instead of the current practices of debt that prop up the big banks and causes inflation.

A proper reform of monetary policy would also allow us to lower taxes for the working class, fund true universal healthcare and college for all, and fund the building of our infrastructure which makes our cities better and more beautiful. Not only that but it could potentially encourage wage increases since the new job creation creates competition for workers in the job market.

Austerity is counter productive. This is the USA we need GROWTH. Spread the word! This is an important message. Everyone needs to know a future that works for the people is possible.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Here's where you lose me, you talk about lowering taxes and the American people have been given enough ice cream, we have a 15 trillion dollar debt, till it's zero, I would really like for people to stop talking about cutting taxes and start talking about how we fairly pay it off.

As far as the monetary policy goes, I confess I do not have an advance degree in the subject, I would not consider climate advice without conferring with a Climatologist nor monetary policy without talking to Robert Reich, speaking of which he had some ideals:

Reich likes:

Raise tax rates to 1981 levels (me too, at least)

Put a 2% surtax on the wealth of the top .5% (man this guy is good)

A .5% tax on financial transactions (another winner, he’s on a roll)

Cut the military budget more than scheduled cuts (OK got this one wrong, should be lots more)

Use Medicare to control soaring healthcare costs (thought we did that, must mean do better, anyway his sounds better)

Medicare For All!! (yeah)

Then a bunch of boring bank stuff, just kidding, limit their size, that’s a biggie.

[+] -4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

we wouldn't need income taxes on the poor and the lower levels of the working class... these people need all of their dollar to feed their families and provide for a better life. It is not right to tax low level income people, in my opinion.... especially since it's not actually necessary under a reformed system. Don't think of the way things are. Think of the way they can be.

Which is why we'd reform monetary policy to cover most of the costs of the government as well as introducing a tax on the federal reserve both of which would not only cover all current costs of the government but it would allow us to pay down the debt, cancel almost 2 trillion in debt to the federal reserve, and fund medicare for all and education for all. It's possible. People just need to know the truth of how our monetary policy works.

This is our current monetary policy in a nutshell. The federal reserve creates trillions out of nothing... give it to banks at insanely low interest... as low as .01%... banks make a profit by holding it on deposit... they pay fat CEO bonuses... then the banks loan the money out to people at 5% to 29% interest. And that is how money is introduced to the economy. Through debt and inflation. It's a moronic system.

Instead we should introduce trillions into the economy through job creation and social programs like medicare and education for all. We should be working on creating the best society possible. The monetary system we currently have set in place picks and chooses winners and losers and props up the 1%.

We could be loaning people money at .01% interest instead of giving that deal to banks that steal people's homes. We could even do zero percent interest. Do you understand better?

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

if we restructure our system in a better way the poor and middle class will have more money

[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

that's exactly the point I made here. I think you get it now.

Tax the rich! And restructure monetary policy to fund actual job creation and social programs.

[-] -3 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

And that is where I hope you fail. There appears to be this singular interest in making the wealthy pay. I am not one of the 1% but I am deeply afraid that this notion of a fair share is a slippery slope where everyone who has something that someone else does not have is going to be targeted as one who needs to pay. The tax code is too complex. So let us do away with the tax code. A flat tax, or at most a 2-tier tax rate with a 1-page tax law. Everyone pays a tax. I mean everyone. Get a disability check?Medicare? Pay a tax. That will bring in more tax revenue. (tax experts here could perhaps crunch some numbers) Cut the budget in all departments. Department of Defense needs to focus exclusively on fighting and killing to defend out nation. Department of Interior needs to focus on protection of out lands and our resources. Department of Justice needs to focus on simple law enforcement Department of Education needs to focus on betterment of the education of all children in the sciences and math, etc And so one and so forth. That's it, That's all there is to it. It is the only way to endure fairness in the tax code while at the same time finding ways to cut the budget. No tax breaks for corportations, no child credits, and no lobbyists No 90% taxation on the wealthy or any of that nonsense. Everyone works to earn a share of the American Dream That is it.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The top rate has fallen from 90% to 15%, (and Romney did not even pay that much) since the 1950's and with it so has the American dream and the middle class, it's not about "getting" anybody, it's about doing what works.

[-] 0 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

The automatic withdrawal is 33% for married individuals earning between $4165 and $7321 per week. Those in the bracket earning up to $200 a week have an automatic 10% withdrawal.
Let that be the extent of the code and bring the upper and lower percentages to 15% and that sounds like a good number.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

you have made a good point working people pay much more than the Kings, and Romney who got 20 million a year for doing nothing paid only 13.9% so it seems the more you make the less you pay in American, your plan is fine with me as long as we pay for everything we do even if we go to war or bulid a prison, these things have got to be paid for, look at what is happening now the GOP refused to levy tax now we owe 15 trillion dollars if we do a 99% death tax after the first 5 million directed toward the debt, maybe someday it will be paid, hell I didn't get any of it why should I have to pay it? Let those that got the big boon from all that tax cutting pay the debt, it's them that ran it up with the people they paid to send to Washington.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

Sounds like republican talking points. And regressive as weel. Medicare, disability pay tax? Thats ridiculous. It's immoral to make the poor pay. I can agree to simplification, lets cut taxes for the real job creators, the working class. We can a 5% rate for any one under $75K annual income. We can tax the shit out of the motherfuckers who crashed the economy and stole all our money. And eliminate all deductions but just for the wealthy. Cut the military budget by 50%. How do you like that? You're not a 1%'r but you sure do suck their dick real nice. You're a traitor to you're class. Low life!

[-] -2 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

then consider me immoral. I frankly do not give a shit about the poor. The age of Robin Hood is dead; dead and buried. I am not saying tax the poor and not the rich. Nor am I saying give the wealthy all the breaks. 1 page tax code. one flat rate across the board, and cut the goddamn budget across the board.
Everyone works to earn a share of the American Dream.

[-] 3 points by trashyharry (2779) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

Millions of people sinking deeper and deeper into poverty and despair are a clear and present danger to your personal well being on numerous different levels.People in massive numbers can't really be controlled or contained in a manner that can reliably assure the security of your person and your property.The suffering masses of India,for example,have been in serf training for hundreds of years,wheras the millions of newly impoverished Americans,combined with the millions of seasoned poor people might prove to be of a different character altogether.Perhaps the wealthy people will "give a shit"about the well heeled and rich citizens and allow you guys into their private islands and bunkers if the poor run amok-you would be a fool to count on them because while the well heeled and rich citizens think they have something in common with the wealthy,the wealthy "don't give a shit" about them and are already prepared to consume the wealth owned by well heeled and rich people before throwing them under the bus.Good luck with that!

[-] -1 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

the program being propulgated right now in Washington, DC is fundumentally wrong. As long as the government espouses a "fair share" and "free riders" (Nancy Pelosi, et al regarding the ACA) mentality, then the class warfare will be in place and everyone will look out for their own interests. that is why so many billions in cash is being sent overseas and businesses are not investing in new development. What needs to happen is to get the poor out of the mindset that they are entitled to anything not spelled out in the Constitution. The wealthy need to understand that, as wealthier members of our society, they will in fact be responsible for more money in taxes based upon the simple 1-page flat rate tax code The poor cannot wear their poverty as a mantle to expect a handout. there has to be a concerted effort at vocational rehab for the injured and an honest attempt to provide everyone in poverty with an opportunity to lift themselves up through education and self-empowerment. the wealthy need to have the loopholes and offshore sheltered accounts yanked away and pay a simple flat rate, and then be free to use the rest of their money as they see fit without the government getting in the way. The current path is unsustainable and a breaking point will come and I will, god willing, be ready to defend myself and my family if needed

[-] 2 points by trashyharry (2779) from Waterville, NY 2 years ago

You are being ridiculous,Teds.And overly paranoid.The priviledged classes are the ones who started this I Refuse To Pay For Anything crap-now they are angry because it spread to everybody.I can't believe how you think beaming selfishness out into the universe could possibly bring security,or any other good thing back to you.What it will do is psychos with their own harsh brand of selfishness & good luck with it.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"that is why so many billions in cash is being sent overseas and businesses are not investing in new development."

It's trillions, it's criminal and justice must be served. http://occupywallst.org/forum/at-least-21-trillion-dollars-is-hidden-worldwide-b/

[-] 0 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

OK. trillions. same arguments apply

[-] 2 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

The situation is bigger and more serious by orders of magnitutude over what most people realize. And you can extend this "I won't pay" syndrome to military service. We have soldiers who are back in harm's way for the third and fourth time with prosthetic limbs while those who say that they support these troops won't even pay taxes so that these troops can have adequate provisions.

[-] 0 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

Regressive republican talking point meant to cut programs/services that helps to 99%. flattax = regressive forbes plan to cut wealthy taxes. raise taxes on wealthy, cut on working class, cut the military, invest i education, greentech, infrastructure, penalize outsourcing, money out of politics, public option. Thats what we need.

[-] -2 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

Money out of politics definitely. I believe the 1 page tax code, with the deductions, etc gone, will take a lot of the money out of politics. Cuts across the board. From defense to entitlement programs. Sorry, unless you are debilitated or truly disabled, then the cuts will have to affected about everyone.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

No cuts that affect the 99%. They have sacrificed and suffered enough.

[-] 0 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

With each man, woman, and child responsible for over 40,000 dollars of the national debt, everyone is going to have to make a cut. That would mean the wealthy would lose their tax deductions and loopholes. Each department (including defense) would have to streamline their operations and make do with less. And, unfortunately, the 99% would have to take a hit as well. No one is talking about throwing babies over the cliff, but, come on! A little less in entitlement in a system that is more efficient is not that big a sacrifice.

[-] 1 points by repubsRtheprob (1209) 2 years ago

We already took a hit. thank you very much

[+] -4 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

Because what you are doing here will not solve anything.

[-] 2 points by CrepusculousRays (12) 2 years ago

That's easy. We need ONE thing that is important to ALL of us, that we can stand behind and fight for... and that's an easy call. FREEDOM. The rest can be figured out after we have secured our freedom from the Oligarchs!! The oligarchs need to be dethroned from their rule over us. OCCUPY THE OLIGARCHS.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Ok. A great start.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Bears repeating.

Peace, & Solidarity

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[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1307) from Fredericksburg, TX 2 years ago

There can be no peace while the rich are with us.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Some of the wealthy are with us - and support people as well as Occupy movements - if we had them all with us - then there could be peace and positive change rather more quickly.

[-] 1 points by agkaiser (1307) from Fredericksburg, TX 2 years ago

I agree. If . . .

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[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Fighting for justice is us. Welcome to Occupy Everyone.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Zendog is always clear and dependable.

No justice, No peace.

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[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I suppose there may be times when an extra effort is required to fully understand your points. However in general I find your positions clear, and your posture dependable.

But there are others who will find you mostly confusing, perhaps it is dishonest on their part or perhaps simply a disconnect on foundational understanding of a given issue.

Whoa. I think I got too deep there.

Peace

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[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Follow the example of former House Speaker Tip O'Neil, and Reagan. Bitter enemies during the day, and at night drinking buddies at the White House. Yes, I know that O'Neil gave in too much to Reagan, but that is not the point here.

Figure out a way to limit ALL types ....of political activism/partisanship, and the criticism thereof on this forum to two days a week....no more.....to be enforced by all of us.....and I will sign on, and put my 'hammer' away.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Reagan/O'neil is a pretty good example.

I cannot support any form of "limiting political activism/partisdanship" because that is the opposite of freedom. And I certainly do not want enforcement left to "us". Sorry. Personal beliefs will get in the way.

Peace

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[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Not me! I don't claim virtue. But thank you for the compliment. and I am not responsible for you virtuelessness!

Perhaps it was your constant superiority complex of weeding out unpure people on this site. If you are able to learn, learn from this movement and embrace all non violent tactics! Including voting!

OCCUPY the BALLOT BOX!

Solidarity

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[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I do not seek divisiveness. I seek growth in the movement. I seek the improvement of the lives of the 99%.

Solidarity

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