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Forum Post: One Cannot BE the Problem and SOLVE the Problem

Posted 2 years ago on Aug. 14, 2012, 9:24 a.m. EST by MadInMedford (-15)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Two Party Tyranny|Demopublicans

Advice for the real and virtual partisan propagandists polluting this forum:

01) The global fascist elite use "two-party tyranny" to divide and control us.

02) The Democrats and Republicans have common masters and therefore common interests.

03) What the Democrats and Republicans agree on is more dangerous than what they don't.

04) What the Democrats and Republicans disagree on is theater to hide what they agree to.

05) By focusing on issues that divide us, the elite keep us attacking each other and not them.

06) By focusing on issues that divide us, YOU keep us attacking each other and not the elite.

07) Focus not on packaged candidates in rigged elections, but on the real issues of the day.

08) Start with NDAA 2012 (Indefinite Detention), NDAA 2013 (Domestic Propaganda) and TrapWire.

09) OWS means to change the Regime, not perpetuate it. Post your paid political spin elsewhere.

10) One cannot BE the problem and SOLVE the problem.

200 Comments

200 Comments


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[-] 6 points by 1971 (154) 2 years ago

Great post. I wish everybody saw through this phoney political dog and pony show. If they did, we might just have a real democracy

[-] 3 points by MadlnMedford (3) 2 years ago

Instead we have a corporate fascist police state disguised as a constitutional republic.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Bush helped that along, but he could not of done it himself, he needed Nader to help him get in office first, if only so many people weren't fooled into thinking we can do nothing, might as well stay ouit of it, like so many do already, some want OWS to be just like the 40% who have gone to sleep and never vote, I think we should wake people up, and what could do that better than just telling them what the GOP has in mind for them, yeah we could sit around and split hairs while the house burns down or we could get to work and thrown the bastards out, but that does invole getting involed and what if you lose control of "the people" when they meet the democrats, oh no what then? I see you that would be King, don't like that thought do you, people deciding stuff on their own. .

[-] 2 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

Everything you post here has one purpose, Factsrfun, and that is to perpetuate the two-party tyranny the elite use to control our government and the People. You post the same crap day in and day out - as only a paid political hack would do - and the fact that the moderators here let you get away with it I find highly suspect.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

dump on the people who built this site and gave a voice to the people, because you don't like what the people have to say if you want to, like it or not:

THIS is what democracy looks like!!!

you are more than welcome to make your case and like all before you the truth shall defeat you, for it is not I you oppose but truth itself, and you sir are no match for it

[-] 0 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

You did not build this site, Factsrfun, and your contributions to it have been primarily endless partisan propaganda. Paid political hacks like YOU would not recognize Truth if it came up and bit you on the ass.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

where did I say i built this site? your lies begin already, any who read them and are fooled are sheep, but there are many vocies awakening the sheep and we will come for you and your 1% masters

[-] 2 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

You seem to forget that anyone can read your posts, liar, and see how hard you work at twisting words and phrases around til they support your false and failing partisan propaganda message. Paid political hacks like you literally make me sick to my stomach, Factsrfun.

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[-] 4 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

The date someone creates an ID for use on this forum says absolutely nothing about how long they have been battling the Kleptocracy or how they have been going about it.

The system is broken. Revolution is the only solution. And we never said it would be easy or pretty.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26178) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The date does not say how many times that person has been booted either.

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[-] -3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Drone strikes are louder than peace

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[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

How drones are causing hatred for America in foreign countries - http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/14/opinion/how-drones-help-al-qaeda.html

Good article

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[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

"One wonders how many Yemenis may be moved in future to violent extremism in reaction to carelessly targeted missile strikes"

well put

maybe that's the plan for future war. The war machine is big and it's defense budget is growing.

good post

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[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I'm pumping as fast as I can, just keep working on the engine zen..

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[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Having been in a compartment under water and looking for the discharge port, I can tell you there is not much time to figure out if it's the right one, best to get your head above water so you can look around a bit first, under present situation I would say pick a simple path that will cut through the worst of it quickly so we don't all drown before we see the shore.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

the bilge pumps cannot keep up with the water coming in...the generators are under water...it's dark below deck..our chance for survival is growing increasingly slim....now what? permission to man the life-boats Captain?

both parties are irreparably broken, and answer to corrupt special interests, not ours

[-] 0 points by gsw (2697) 2 years ago

we need to get out again, but now with some solutions now, and not be down in this dark time, with faith that if we stick together for a just cause with the truth, we can get the country's ideals back.

Doesn't matter who f*cked it up. We're up to our eyeballs in it and we better fix it or we'll be extinct.

[-] -3 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

a lot did in 2000 I think that's how Bush got in as I remember too bad the folks on the left were so divided, Bush might not of been able to start that war or pass that tax cut, imagine no war and no debt....

you know thinking about it maybe the system didn't let us down, maybe we let it down....

[-] 6 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

You are absolutely correct. All ten. But the hacks will never relent. It's their only aim, divide. Clear as glass. You hacks are turning this place into a fucking joke. And I applaud those of you that haven't been playing their game. The best option is to ignore them, as I usually do (watch me).

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed man."

[-] 4 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

I second that.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Coming from one of the ones I applaud, although I didn't mention you by name. Thanks.

[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

We need to know more about your spam plan for the revolution.

how does a spam bot work for the 99%?

[+] -4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Trapwire is terrible. What should we do? fraud boy!

[-] 5 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Anonymous Operation TrapWire – Press Release Posted by ohai on August 12, 2012

http://remainanonymous.org/2012/08/12/anonymous-operation-trapwire-press-release/

[+] -5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

What should we do? fraud boy!

[-] 0 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

I was going to say that it's just a matter of time before people start zapping the cameras with homemade HERF devices. But Anonymous looks like they're a step ahead.

Theoretically: Homemade HERF: http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2004/05/journal_homemad.html

BTW, you should never destroy anyone's property. That's illegal.

[-] 4 points by captcha42 (54) 2 years ago

This is a real #OWS post. Completely on target with what people should be talking about on this forum. There are too many posts here supporting the corrupt D/R political establishments. How many times do our "representitives" have to blatantly demonstrate disloyalty before the truth is obvious?

Capitol hill corruption scale 2012 *estimate.

  • .........Elite puppets.........Team players........Honest representatives(Mr/Ms. Smith's)
  • Dems:..... 47%......................... 36%........................... 17%
  • Reps: ..... 68%,,,.......................23%..............................9%
[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

If only you had been here you could of made a difference well no matter you're here now. Please explain why Bush was no worst than Gore would of been or how Romney will be no worst than Obama because that's what we've been missing to stop this madness no one seems to be able to. But now finally you have come to explain it all, please go ahead.

[-] 4 points by elf3 (2726) 2 years ago

great post and right on the money just like our politicians and "elected" parties - (all about the money) They forget the friend of my enemy is also my enemy - they may not read the bills but forget that we do - especially now when there are a lot of people who have a lot of time ever since they got downsized.

[-] 4 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Learn more about the Domestic Propaganda provisions of NDAA 2013. Google this unquoted:

ndaa 2013 domestic propaganda

And don't just read the RT.com stuff. Remember that stands for "Russia Today".

[-] 0 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

As long as you keep a healthy dose of skepticism, and know they have an agenda, they do put out some good information. I still read RT, but not in a vacuum.

[-] -3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yeah I know plenty about it. What should we do? fraud boy.

[-] 3 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Start by defining "fraud boy" including who you refer to.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You are the fraud because when I ask what you are suggesting we do you got no plan. You are a fraud. Boy.

[-] -1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

what ARE you on about? ?

[-] -3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I been asking for his plan for revolution. He won't answer. All he has is "don't vote". I've heard that before. It ain't a revolution. Its voter suppression. And so therefore he is a fraud.

[-] 4 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

you think you can vote your way to revolution? really?

Pointing out the problem, does not make one responsible for fixing it,. that is the whole point of showing the problem; so others can help with the fixing of it,. .

The problem is clearly defined in this top most post. The voting game is a distraction from the real issues,. the whole process is a joke and the system can not be reformed. Something new must supplant the old broken ways of our ancestors, that lead us to this societal impasse.

Sorry, I can not provide you with a "plan for revolution",. it is a personal decision, and it can not be handed to another,. you must make your own way, or it is not yours.

Search; eco-village, permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, degrowth, etc.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

people who call voting a game are the problem...

[-] 0 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

How about a scam? a charade? a pointless diversion?

All those are true; there have been times when the dems. have had power and yet the corporate agenda continued unabated,. changing the corporate 'PR face' does not change the corporate controlled agenda, at all. The two parties have slightly different PR faces and 'policies' however the overarching agenda remains largely the same. The illusion of choice, is not choice at all.

The voting GAME does not interest me,. get over it. Next topic please.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You only mention "dem" again.! As if they are the only problem

Partisan.!

[-] 1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

I only mention the Democrats because you keep talking like there is a difference! Any difference that does exists is so minor to be of little interest to sentient thinking people. (The Clinton years where only marginally different then that bush jr. & sr. years,. so what is the big change?!? None. the same corporate agenda,. .)

I am no Republican (or supporter of), it should be CLEAR to anyone reading what I have posted, as I see both parties as the SAME corporate entity! You can keep calling me a partisan and that makes so little sense to the discussion, that I am going to just ignore you from here on,. thanks for playing.

Remember changing form repugs to dems is so little change that it is pointless to wast valuable time on, instead try work to positive goals, like; eco-villages, permaculture, slowmoney, relocalizing, degrowth, etc.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I have to wonder where you were during those times.

I experienced vast differences in those years.

There's no comparison between the 90s and 2Ks.

The bottom began to fall out within 6mos of Bush taking office.

[-] 0 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

Yes right after the Clinton deregulated the banking industry? Do try to follow the plot, it is really not that difficult. Do you not recall who deregulated the banking industry,. try a web search, or a history text, we do write this stuff down now-a-days,. damn.

Many choose willful blindness, i suppose. The simple fact is voting will not stop the corporate/military agenda, since the 1% own both parties, the courts, and the whole 'system',. giving your SUPPORT to the 1% rulers by voting for one of their puppets will not stop their agenda. But go ahead and try it,. Obama is a dem. and currently president BTW,. are you feeling the change? Or is he just an empty suit pushing the same military-bankster-1% corporate agenda?? Looks that way from here,. but I guess you have some special knowledge?

If you want change you actually have to make it yourself, in YOUR life and in your community,. voting is a non-starter, and not the locus of change. That idea is a story told to children. peace.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Thats 5 times. I've looked it's wonderful. I hope it all takes off. I support it. There kinda long term I think.

The parties are vastly different. But both have serious problems.

So we must (in the short term until your repeated sent ideas is widespread):

take back the govt. from the 1% conservative plutocrats.

Agitate for money out of politics.

Elect progressives.

Any progressive, can be democrat, republican, independent, working parties, Are you against that too?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I'm familiar with some of that. I'm also familiar with the problems we face. I must tell you that if you are one of those people like the madman who has no plan except "the system cannot be reformed" then that is a non starter.

I understand if you have no solutions but to criticize those of us who intend to try is just too negative.; Tearing down others actions while sniping from the sideline without a positive plan is worse than useless.

So let me tell you I do not think we can vote ourselves to a revolution! Never said it! Thats you simply spreading untruths. I think we must engage the existing corrupt system. Even though some think it is useless. What is useless is doing nothing except snipe from the side without a plan. Engage it with the addition of real protests we can make progress.

I know if we grow this movement, and agitate all pols to enact progressive solutions, (like money out of politics) we can lay the ground work for your revolution, (when you figure it out). We can also enact progressive solutions to improve the lives of the 99% while you are creating the new system.

I support your new system, your revolution even. I do not support the apathetic comments that the whole system is a joke" "can not be reformed" it's too defeatist. Giving up is for weaklings.

I intend to take my govt back from the 1% plutocrats who stole it. They want us to crawl away, stay away from the ballot booth, and give up.

If you won't help please do not tear us down with negativity and insults. Work on the new system. Do something positive.

Peace

[-] 2 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

I am not giving up, I am pointing out that you are tying yourself to a sinking ship.

We should be focusing on positive creation, not pointless reforming, of a non-reform-able system. (if you are voting for a "representative" that system is broken)

Search; eco-village, permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, degrowth, etc. All positive progressive movements!

You sound rather paranoid from here; you refer to non-existent insults, and negativity,. show me one example of either from my above post ?

[+] -4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Pleas stop repeating the same websites over and over. I saw them the 1st 2nd and now 3rd time you listed them. I told you I was familiar with some, I'm sure they're all great. And please refrain from the paranoid suggestions, I am not.

If you read through the internet disruption list you might have number two referred to those who claim it is useless to pursue a particulat action.

This is what you are doing. Again. You say it is useless. I tell you there is hope. I say that because there is a difference this time. And as I've said that difference is the people have begun to wake up thanks to OWS. If we can grow and protest, and agitate for removal of money in politics we can make a real attempt at getting control of out govt from the corporate 1% plutocrats.

We disagree. You say don't vote. I say if we don't vote we turn the goct overto the republican corporate puppets. I say protest. I don't know how you feel about that. I don;t know how you feel about anything except voting. Your efforts have only been to run down my attempts to vote and affect change.

Why don't we get over this disagreement. Perhaps you got some other ideas I might agree with. Anything?

[-] -1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

I am not listing 'websites',. these are ideas, concepts, and world wide movements, I post no links, so people can find any info. they like on these subjects, I have no horse in any race. I only point to the ideas that are positive and workable, things that are revolutionary and will make the changes we need to improve life for all.

I argue with your continued partisan postings, urging people to submit themselves to the corporate rule system that lies to us, steals from us and our mothers, and is little more than a distraction from the revolutionary change that we can easily make when we stop attempting to move others and simply move ourselves.

The ideas you ask for are in these words; eco-village, permaculture, slowmoney, relocalize, degrowth, etc. we lead by example, urging others to do something is less helpful than showing them an example of people doing it. I am not saying not to vote, only that it is largely a wast of time and a distraction from the real issues, the things that actually make change happen.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Change has come from people protesting in large numbers. We can do that and affect change. That is the difference now. We have a movement that can push the country (through our representatives) towards the progressive solutions your suggested ideas, concepts embrace.

We MUST vote! Even in the face of the people who ridicule us, tell us it is submitting to corp rule, pressure us to boycott, (it's what the 1% want), tell us it is useless and we are wasting our time.

I support your suggestions on the ideas and concepts you listed (4x) I think our disagreement if there is one (you tell me) is regarding voting in this broken, corrupted system that serves the corp 1% plutocrats.

I wanna take it back from the corp 1% plutocrats, and you are against that? I don't know what your problem is with me. I really really want to know though so please edjimacate me.

Peace

[-] -1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

Yes, I am against that; taking the broken tool away from the madman, may be useful, in stopping the madman from wielding it, however the tool remains broken, and hence of little use to the sane-man.

Any system of political organisation where you are asked to submit your will to a 'representative' is a bad system, period. We have out grown this, we do not need this, and this is counter productive. We can do much better, and this information is what I am spreading,. you are not required to believe it or embrace it, I only speak with you now to help others that may read this dialog. We will let the truth, as always become self evident.

I do not support grabbing at the broken tool, instead I encourage all people to embrace their own power to re-shape the world. To change their lives, and in doing so change the communities and the world. Fighting a madman for control of a broken tool seems rather futile to me.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

broken tool"? why the riddles? you don'tadvocate voting? you don't advocate taking the govt back from the corp 1% plutocrats.?

Sounds like you want a new form of govt where the people "vote" on every issue perhaps through a verifiable internet system. This would eliminate the need for "representatives". Also minimize therisk of corruption. Is that anything like what you want?

[-] 1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

you seem to be giving up

both parties answer to banking, and corporate interests, not ours

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Giving what up? Arguing over whether we can change the system.?

I agree both parties answer to banking interests not ours. The repubs are much worse. I also know that we must vote because if we don't the repubs (who are much worse) will get more power and progressive apathy is what the 1% plutocrats want.

So we must elect progressives, agitate for and succeed at getting money out of politics, and grow this progressive protest movement. The protests can be the difference.

[-] -1 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

Take your vile partisan co-opt spin down the street: The system is broken and cannot be fixed from within. Revolution is the only solution.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

What kind of revolution? What does your revolution entail? Maybe I can support & help. I prefer non violent revolution. Is your proposed revolution non violent? Whats the plan?

[-] 0 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

We don't want your support, VQkag2. The Revolution has no need for the clueless or the spineless.

[-] -2 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

the two parties are a false dichotomy set up to make us belive we have a choice. nothing more.

both parties answer to corrupt monied interests, not ours

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Well gosh-a-rooties.

It appears the teabagge(R)s still have all the "choice" they want.

Anti womens rights bills to the tune of over 900.

Tax raises on those with a fixed income.

Forced teaching of creationism.

Racist billboards.

Tossing black kids in prison.

And so much more.

It's looks like the false part, is everything you say!!!!!

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

you concentrate on all this while they both agree on how to fleece us. what they agree on is far worse than what they disagree on. so remember

both parties answer to corrupt banking and corporate interests, not ours

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

How in the fuck can you ignore all that?

And so much more.

Are you completely numb?

The biggest fleecing we get, is at the hands of WallStreet.

Keep this in mind.

If they are making enough money to buy our government, they are making WAY too much money.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i cannot ignore the countless ways that we are being f**ked, and i know both parties have worked together to do it

both parties answer to corrupt special interests, not our interests

[-] -2 points by GovTheives (-30) 2 years ago

In other related news!!!!!!

EXCLUSIVE: State Department oversight of climate change spending abroad is a mess, watchdog reports

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/08/15/exclusive-state-department-oversight-climate-change-spending-abroad-is-mess/#ixzz23d3w2YZu

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Didn't you just say that? Whats a dichotomy? Is that like a trachiotomy?

Are you saying we shouldn't vote for these 2 parties?

[-] -2 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

a dichotomy is two mutually exclusive, opposed, condradictory groups which at best, the two parties we have are only slightly different. you can legitimize this by voting for either of these parties. do what you feel is right, but remember

both parties answer to corrupt monied interests, not ours

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

More repeating, and more criticism. But no alternative. Are you here just to tear down. I gave you my plan. Maybe you don't have a plan and just don't want me to vote.

Please tell me your far superior plan.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

there's no reason for sarcasm which as i have seen from the way you deal with others here, escalates quickly into nastiness on your part. if you are trying to convince people to see to see it your way, you do not do it by being obnoxious. people do not come here to be treated like garbage. that is not the world that we want to live in. we have seen enough of that. i will avoid you like the plague for as long as i possibly can while on here. good day, and remember

both parties answer to corrupt special monied interests, not our interests

[-] 1 points by flip (7095) 2 years ago

your response to my comment (below) was excellent - i wish i could do as well. the only mistake was that it was max neef who made the intelligent statements not me!

[-] 0 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

thanks, you set my response up beautifully, better than george burns could have set gracie up. the big difference of course is, this is no joke. i truly wish more of the forum was like the thoughtful exchange we just had

both parties are part of the problem, not the answer

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So more criticism, But no plan? Do you feel intimidated? Why? But still no plan right? Would that be fraudulent?

[-] -2 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

".....because of the nastiness that is GONNA come!" yes i take that as intimidation, and from my life experiences, i find it most often comes from people with other 'issues.' once again, i will seek more enlightened people for discussions. sorry to have bothered you, continue on with someone else, but remember

the two parties are a false dichotomy, they both serve the interests of the corrupt elite, not ours

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yeah right you will avoid me because of the nastiness that's GONNA come!

LOL.

But No plan. right? Just criticism. I guess you ARE here only to tear down.

Try positiveness. Put aside negativeness.

It's the only way.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i will seek discussions with more enlightened people, who do not seek to intimidate people who disagree with them. good day, and remember

both parties are irreparably broken, and answer to corrupt monied interests, not our interests

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You are repeating yourself. And you are criticizing my chosen path because there "mibes". No one said it would be easy. In fact it will be very difficult, & will take years of growing this movement, & protesting if we are going to take our govt back from the corp 1% plutocrats that you and I agree have stolen it.

Do you know a path that does not include mines? Or perhaps your path has fewer mines. Or perhaps your plan has less damaging mines. Please tell me the better plan? Perhaps we can work together to avoid the mines.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

your formula, with a focus on the voting booth, for a revolution seems a bit odd to me. kind of reminds me of the 'same old.' it is still a free country. do what you have to, but remember

both parties answer to corrupt special momied interests, not our interests

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Then our path is clear.:

  • Get money out of politics (publicly funded campaigns)

  • Protest, Pressure, Agitate for solutions that resolve the inequities of the 99% - 1%.

  • Elect progressives

  • Vote out conservative 1% plutocrat tools.

It's the only way. The system has been stolen by the 1% plutocrats. We must take it back for the 99%.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

the path that you choose to traverse the terrain on is filled with mines. please vote if you believe there is enough of a difference in the two parties, but remember

both parties answer to big monied special interests, not our interests

[-] -1 points by flip (7095) 2 years ago

i agree with you and had an interesting discussion with vq - i mentioned to him that he might get a better response if he would acknowledge that obama has been a disappointment. a shit storm followed. we will have the same discussion in 4 and 8 years about the lesser of two evils and i am tired of it. the shame of it all is that we voted (well i did not - i knew the bastard was in the pocket of wall street) for change and did not realize that we were getting bush lite - or maybe bush plus. what a shame - he had a chance to change the world and we need change quickly - have you read any of jeremy grantham's investment advice lately? he has woken up to the fact that the world has finite resources! you did a better job of conversing with vq than i did! here are some bits from max neef - just in case you haven't seen it already - MANFRED MAX-NEEF: No, the thing is much deeper. I mean, it’s not like a recipe typical of someone in your country, fifteen lessons or satisfaction guaranteed or your money back. That’s not the point. The point is much deeper. You know, I would — let me put it this way. We have reached a point in our evolution in which we know a lot. We know a hell of a lot. But we understand very little. Never in human history has there been such an accumulation of knowledge like in the last 100 years. Look how we are. What was that knowledge for? What did we do with it? And the point is that knowledge alone is not enough, that we lack understanding. ....AMY GOODMAN: What do you think we need to change?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Oh, almost everything. We are simply, dramatically stupid. We act systematically against the evidences we have. We know everything that should not be done. There’s nobody that doesn’t know that. Particularly the big politicians know exactly what should not be done. Yet they do it. After what happened since October 2008, I mean, elementally, you would think what? That now they’re going to change. I mean, they see that the model is not working. The model is even poisonous, you know? Dramatically poisonous. And what is the result, and what happened in the last meeting of the European Union? They are more fundamentalist now than before. So, the only thing you know that you can be sure of, that the next crisis is coming, and it will be twice as much as this one. And for that one, there won’t be enough money anymore. So that will be it. And that is the consequence of systematical human stupidity. ......MANFRED MAX-NEEF: First of all, we need cultured economists again, who know the history, where they come from, how the ideas originated, who did what, and so on and so on; second, an economics now that understands itself very clearly as a subsystem of a larger system that is finite, the biosphere, hence economic growth as an impossibility; and third, a system that understands that it cannot function without the seriousness of ecosystems. And economists know nothing about ecosystems. They don’t know nothing about thermodynamics, you know, nothing about biodiversity or anything. I mean, they are totally ignorant in that respect. And I don’t see what harm it would do, you know, to an economist to know that if the bees would disappear, he would disappear as well, because there wouldn’t be food anymore. But he doesn’t know that, you know, that we depend absolutely from nature. But for these economists we have, nature is a subsystem of the economy. I mean, it’s absolutely crazy.

[-] 0 points by gsw (2697) 2 years ago

Everyone is being passionate and trying there best to grapple with the immensity of the situation. The people in the forum, the regular people, have intense feelings, because they have been cheated from the principles which they thought the country rested: the constitutions been shit on by Bush and stuck in the front pocket of the president, by his choice he flipped on his word, so he broke faith with the people who put their hopes on him, to get things back to normal. And now it is so messed up, and the world is at a tipping point. In Rolling Stone Aug 29 talks about Greenland's Ice warming, and it is off the chart, but no-one cares.

The bees are screwed, kids are getting Autism, our food supply is un-real, and we can choose A or B, not C D or E. becuase the 2 parties and their masters are a bunch of nuts.

I don't care about all this for me, but for my kids, suddenly again the world is a harsh, unreal place, and the future is not that bright with the direction were heading in.

My parents have a 99 sticker on their car, but think Obama is good cause the cons are crazy-mean and ruthless. They've been life-long liberals, but like Chris Hedges points out, the liberals have been in denial since when Bush II was elected, we've been clubbed with shock and awe. (Shock Syndrome? what was the Frieman principal in Chile?)

The only hope I have is to go racing towards the cliff with the best that is out there, and turn away from my natural instincts to go with demos, cause they WERE the party of the people.

But Glass-Steagle is not in the Dem. Platform, as far as I can tell. Obama did not prosecute the war criminals, tortureers and falsifiers of the info that got us into a needless war that killed many lives.

My only hope, now is a miracle with the only reasonable alternative to the crazy system (our last 12 years) Rocky Anderson is on ballot in many states, and he praised Ows as idealistic courageous and convergent with his positions (4th LINK) His strategy is through social media, as the egyptian s did, wants a revo. Against duopoly. If we met up in public forums, parks, and championed his candidacy, that's freedom of speech. How could that be shut down. And everyone emailed, wrote everyone they know, everyone in the phone book, but keep it optimistic, have kids there, etc pro family and worker.

http://my.firedoglake.com/jest/2012/04/01/video-rocky-anderson-forcefully-dismantles-the-logic-of-2-party-system-apologists/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca_SxT7RHOY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKRR5_NdnLo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8q2lFSvhPI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJCEoRUc4B0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBtiuAiAzvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7DSLUPRunw

http://archive.org/details/scm-48382-rockyandersonstandingupforjust

It was cool to the public when you occupied. Real not staged. For those who know in their soul the system has deep problems, it was inspiring.

Can WE occupy central park(s) and spread the message there, even if it is daily. It was cool you were out in public standing up. I want to be out there again. when I finally got "there" it was 40 degrees and pouring rain in buckets, but you gave me a taste for direct democracy in action.

It's just whole country feels conservative, cause cons keep repeative Obama is communist.

OWS was so fast, and not well covered in main media, for most part. I think it was raising awareness, especially when the police got out of line, but now it is easy for public to ignore, and for many they may believe it has faded away:((

View the last link above. It may give you new hope, if not for us, our children.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i agree discussing anything with VQ is a lesson in futility. obama has been a big disappointment to all those who voted for him. we knew that he was going up against some powerful special interests, and that it would not be easy. but most of us did not expect him to roll over, and join in on the assault of the 99% which he has most definitely done. his one great accomplishment is, he made us all realize that there is another dynamic in play called neoliberalism whose teachings have pervaded academia even. so i credit obama, more than anyone else for launching OWS. that is his one great accomplishment.. he awoke us from our political slumber. now it is our job to awake the rest of the population. hopefully, it won't be too late.

the capitalistic system which requieres never-ending growth, hence infinite resources on a planet with finite resources including the water, and air that is fouled by the extraction, refinement, and use of these minerals....well, it just is not a winning frormula, and like you said is "poisonous." whatever has to be done, to turn this around, has to be done soon. it will require some real out of the box solutions that will come from the young people..... mostly from people in fields like cultural economics (like you said), and the sciences. our problems are inter-related.... and so the solutions must be too. at any rate the 'survival' of the human race will have to be the top priority, not an economic system that feeds on greed, and the destruction of everything we hold dear, and need to sustain human life.

nature....our enviroment, and all the sciences, and disciplines that go with it must become our number one priority...everything else is secondary. how seriously we take these challenges will be our legacy....if there is anyone left to look back on it....will prove our success.

Both parties answer to their corrupt big monied constituents, not ours

.

[-] 2 points by Carroll (40) 2 years ago

On #2--common masters. Democrats and Republicans are two sides of Congress. Together they are only one half of the equation. They are locked in tango with the special interests. Together Congress and corps are the two-headed masters over the people and operate within a capital market at the core of the political system (a barter of legislation for dough, as we all know). Which side is stronger? Congress holds the gun, for they spend the money and can send X away if Y offers more money. The solution is to clarify the capital system of the two masters rolling in bed and then disabuse Congress of their corruption of the Powers of Congress. Change their capital market to make the people a player in the political process again, and you change the regime.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The "common masters' are the Royal families, fight for your right to the vote don't disparage it, that is not the way forward that is the way to slavery.

[-] 2 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Learn more about the indefinite detention of American citizens on American soil provisions (Sections 1021/1022) of NDAA 2012:

https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/ndaa2012

[-] -3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Horrible. What should we do? fraud boy.

[-] 4 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Start by defining "fraud boy" including who you refer to.

[-] -1 points by kaiserw (211) 2 years ago

There are alot of (presumably) .gov disinformation agents on this forum trying to de-rail the movement. I don't know if this guy/girl is one of them, but it's possible.

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/the-15-rules-of-internet-disinformation.html

[-] 3 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

THAT article describes THIS forum perfectly.

Thanks for the post! Let's repost it! :-)

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You! the man without the plan!

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yeah I just read it. I'm not guilty of asny of it. You wanna tell me which one I am guilty of?

[-] 2 points by MadInMedford (-15) 2 years ago

Having read that, I realize replying to posers like you is a waste of my time. Adios!

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I read it and it clearly says you should cite the item I am guilty of. You have not because you can not. More fraud?

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

1, #5, #6, and #14.

Guaranteed. I can spell it out for you if you can't figure it out yourself. You're a plant, VQ, probably from MoveOn. You've been outed.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

now are you trying to divide us with that statement? are MoveOn not welcome, but Republicans are?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Please. I am not guilty of any of that. Spell it out if you like but certainly I disagree.

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I do have to correct one thing. All this time I thought you weren't very smart, but after talking with another poster, and after reading this list, I see you're actually very shrewd. Very shrewd indeed.

1. "Start a partisan divide-and-conquer or otherwise push emotional buttons to sew discord." You started a partisan division from your first day here. You most certainly push emotional buttons to 'sew discord.' That would be your veiled insults and accusatory remarks like "You repubs" when one of us criticizes the Pres.

5. "Pretend alternate media are untrustworthy." I've seen you constantly blow off links people put up for you that may disagree with your position. Constantly, often with remarks like "I could find any number of sites that support my position" but then you don't show any links at all.

6. "Coordinate with others to 'shout-down' reasonable comments." In the case of this forum, it would be vote down. You and your partners (and you and your other computers) absolutely do this. You guys down-vote the PERSON, not the comments, no matter how good the comment. Case in point: my reply to hchc on his thread about what it would be like if the world was perfect. I added the comment: "The media would report the news. The REAL news." That comment, my friend is TRUTH. What did you guys do? Minus four.

14. "Question motives." Self-explanatory, I think.

Deny all you want. You guys absolutely do all four of these things to those of us that aren't voting for Obama. You're co-opters, plain and simple.

One more thing. I don't know about your upbringing, but where I come from, liars are not trusted and have zero credibility. By their very nature, liars CANNOT be trusted. Shill for Obama all you want, but stop the blatant lies about him.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

"That comment, my friend is TRUTH. What did you guys do? Minus four"

Here you speak of "truth" but I have never seen you acknowledge the truth that either Romney or Obama will be the next President, even now you will not speak the truth. You post and comment as if that were not the case all the time, and yet you speak of truth, sir you do not know it.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Have you lost your fucking mind? I spell it out ONE MORE TIME:

Obama will be President in 2013! Fuck man, I can't be any clearer than that. Do you understand now???????????????????????????????????

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

read your reply the simple truth that this is a contest between Romney and Obama and we should take a position and get involved, that is the truth you will not admit and never have, you pretend that it's already over, hoping others will think so too, that's how you hope to keep us from taking action, How's that? you still think my mind is slipping?

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Totally wrong, and you know it. I don't expect anyone, and I mean anyone, to agree with me that it's a forgone conclusion. Nowhere on this forum, since I arrived, have I told anyone not to vote. Quite the opposite. I've stressed that people should vote, but to vote their conscience. I like Obama. The man. He's got class and style, and comes off as a pretty cool guy. That's not a reason to vote for him. He's failed the American people, you guys just refuse to acknowledge this. You may sit there for hours watching cspan or whatever paying close attention to how someone votes on a resolution, but you apparently have little concept as to how politics REALLY works. Those votes are the trees, facts. Keep staring at the trees. We big boys will take care of the forest.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

So your "truth" says that Romney has NO chance? I don't believe that is the truth. So again are you a liar or truth teller? I'd say you're about 30% truthful, that is better than some.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

You, my friend, have become a shadow of your former self. You've devolved into silly diversionary bullshit. That boy has poisoned your once-sharp mind.

Rather than go into any detail about any group dynamic that I may or may not have observed on this board over the last few months, I'd just like to give you one piece of sound advice:

In a group, it's usually not a good idea to emulate the lowest common denominator.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The truth is either Romney or Obama will be president in 2013, the question that remains is are you a liar?

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

You'll have to be more specific. Lying about what?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

OK do you agree that either Romney or Obama will be President in 2013?

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

I'm pretty sure you and I have already discussed, more than once, what I thought was the likely outcome this year. I also told you that I thought the likelihood was damn near 100%, so from my perspective that subject is moot. You surprise me, facts. No offense, bud, but I think you're slippin'.

Unless you're just looking for a debate. You like to do that.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Debates can be fun.

[-] -2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

It is ok to call someone a repub or claim they serve repubs if they are advocating boycotting the vote because that serves the 1% repubs.

I never claim a link was somehow wrong or some kinda profit making site, I just have no patience for it. And I haven't said I could find many supporting MY position but rather that anyone can find sites that support anything on the interwebs. So this one is clearly wrong.

The numbers are meaningless! I do not coordinate any downvoting. I downvote but I think that is allowed. In any event this items states we are coordinating shout downs and no one is doing that. So wrong again.

I challenge people who advocate boycotting the vote, voting 3rd party, no consent. I want people to vote. I don't tell people to vote for Obama.

I challenge any one who pushes the fallacy that the parties are the same! They ain't! the dems are 1000 times better.

I challenge any one who makes unfair (in my opinion) criticism of Pres Obama and the dems because I believe we have a chance to improve the lives of the 99% with the dems.

These challenges are all allowed. I'm not doing anything wrong. not sowing dissension. you just can't handle a different opinion. Well guess what? You gotta grow up. make your point and let your ideas compete in the market place of ideas.

Simple. I won't be silenced. I am not wrong. Straighten up and fly right.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 2 years ago

Your hollow denials are meaningless, MoveOn. Meaningless.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

again it looks as though you are trying to divide us, have I got that right?

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

perhaps to you but I don't know what you and I disagree on. Can you verbalize it? I doubt it.

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Says the man with the spam!

If that link is so true? Why are so damn disruptive?

And why do you think you have to spam it?

must be one of those propaganda thingies.

[-] 2 points by Cocreator (306) 2 years ago

Citizens Audit Committee, Citizens Arrest Committee, Peoples Court, No Judge Judy, General Assembly Everyday..Arrest the bankers and government officials,colluding to destroy the world and most of the people,

[-] 1 points by TwinkleMe11 (-9) 1 year ago

The comic strip that heads this post covers our duopoly very well.

[-] 1 points by Cocreator (306) 2 years ago

Be The Change, General Assembly, Citizens Independent Audit Committee, Citizens Arrest Committee, Citizens Court..Citizens Body Politic..By the People, not some shill working for the corporation, Call the Gorpies out and tell them they are fired..

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[-] 0 points by alterorabolish1 (569) 2 years ago

LOVE

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

it's amazing (not really) to me how consistently just enough democrats get on board, with the republicans on bills that are so egregiously bad for the people, but yet so beneficial to corporate, and big banking interests

i guess lobbyists who count the votes remind our reps who their REAL constituents/benefactors are, and how they will jeopardize their re-election chances if they are not agreeable/complicit

the lobbyists will also arm our reps with a good spiel, to be repeated over and over again until they themselves believe that they are working in the people's interests.

and they may even get some 'pork' before returning back home to the constituents/dupes who voted for them

both parties are irreprably broken and serve the interests of big banks, and corporations, not our interests

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

One can not be spam and do much of anything except produce more spam.

What I see here are 10 propaganda terms.

With all focus on those terms and those terms alone.

That makes the whole thing vapid.

[-] -1 points by jph (2652) 2 years ago

true that.

[-] -2 points by howstupid (-4) 2 years ago

Red can of shit or blue can of shit?

Just how stupid are Americans?

http://howstupidare.blogspot.com/

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Stupid enough to ignore all the shit the teabagge(R)s are pulling.

At least in your case.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

people divided from the Ds and supported Nader that's how we got Bush, if you want Romney you should do it again...

[-] 2 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

Same old "lesser of the two evils" argument. It's all either side of the two party tyranny has to offer. Aside from the wedge issues, as Chris Hedges says there is no daylight between Obama and Romney:

"Contrast this crucial debate in a federal court with the empty campaign rhetoric and chatter that saturate the airwaves. The cant of our political theater, the ridiculous obsessions over vice presidential picks or celebrity gossip that dominate the news industry, effectively masks the march toward corporate totalitarianism. The corporate state has convinced the masses, in essence, to clamor for their own enslavement. There is, in reality, no daylight between Mitt Romney and Obama about the inner workings of the corporate state. They each support this section within the NDAA and the widespread extinguishing of civil liberties. They each will continue to funnel hundreds of billions of wasted dollars to defense contractors, intelligence agencies and the military. They each intend to let Wall Street loot the U.S. Treasury with impunity. Neither will lift a finger to help the long-term unemployed and underemployed, those losing their homes to foreclosures or bank repossessions, those filing for bankruptcy because of medical bills or college students burdened by crippling debt. Listen to the anguished cries of partisans on either side of the election divide and you would think this was a battle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. You would think voting in the rigged political theater of the corporate state actually makes a difference. The charade of junk politics is there not to offer a choice but to divert the crowd while our corporate masters move relentlessly forward, unimpeded by either party, to turn all dissent into a crime."

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/criminalizing_dissent_20120813//

[-] 2 points by Carroll (40) 2 years ago

As stated in your post: "They each intend to let Wall Street loot the U.S. Treasury with impunity." They can do this because they (Congress) have assumed private ownership of those funds. Let's make the Treasury the property of the citizens by giving the financial ownership of any surplus (as in 2001) in the Treasury to the taxpayers, pro-rated to the tax they paid in. EVERY taxpayer will have an interest in efficient government that solves long-term problems since that is the only route to increasing the value of their Shares. Together the weight of all taxpayers will overshadow the weight of the corporations and give Congress pause to think when they sit down with the deep pockets to spend the money. Disarm Congress of its private ownership of the nation's wealth. Let Congress issue the Stock Certificates. Occupy the Treasury.

[-] -1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

it is the job of OWS to drive that wedge between the two so that Chris Hedges can see some daylight, if we divide our power and passively let the GOP gain even more power then every issue we care about gets worse, Perhaps Chris Hedges wants to live in a world of shot shells and canned food, sitting up at night guarding the door like some Mel Gibson movie, but I would rather we fix this by throwing the footmen of the 1% out of office, and the best place to start is with the Republicans.

[-] 0 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

It is NOT the job of OWS to drive the wedges that divide the people so they keep fighting each other rather than attacking their elite oppressers. Driving those wedges is the job of paid political hacks like YOU, Factsrfun, and may you burn in Hell for doing it!

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

so you prefer that there be no daylight between the Rs and Ds, odd i would of thought that was a big part of the problem, but then some of us want OWS to help solve the problem and some (like you) are afraid we will

[-] 1 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

Lie after lie after lie, Factsrfun, as if we all can't see right through you. You are a paid political hack punching a timeclock here to perpetuate the Two Party Tyranny by co-opting OWS. Go sell your shit down the street, pal.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

driving wedges is what got us here, and it is what will keep us here

both parites answer to the interests of the corrupt elite, not ours

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

again I ask do you or do you not prefer that there be no daylight between the Ds and Rs? you brought it up, what is your opinion?

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

we must channel our anger in the right direction, not at each other. both parties need to be brought back to the left so that once again people's interests are put first. the divisiviness that has brought us here to this point has got to stop

the two parties are a false dichotomy. both parties answer to the corrupt special monied interests, not ours

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

It will be much easier to drag the Ds back to the left once we have cut the dead weight that is the Republican Party from it's breast.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i disagree, once we start cutting out the cancer, we will undoubtedly go too far, and damage the vital organ of 'unity' that we will need to sustain the movement, and to band together on when we become victorious. we should end the vitriolic politics that have pervaded our beloved country for so long. i know it is not easy, but we must try our best to see the journey we are all on emulates the destination that we are trying to reach

both parties answer to corrupt interests, not our interests

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

You should really take a look at what you write do you want to save the system or change it, cause now you're all worried we will hurt some Republican's feelings or something?

You say you want to drag them to the left then, oh no that's not it, you say there is no difference, then no you don't want to create a difference,

really you just want to protect the 1%, I think that is clear by now.

[-] -1 points by Tenacity (-36) from Hague, ND 2 years ago

i understand very well what i write. it is not about hurting people's feelings so much as it is about perpetuating those vitriolic feelings that have kept us warring amongst ourselves for so long. our job is to educate people, agitate, and organize...not to alienate people. this should be a non-violent struggle, fought with reason, facts, and logic, not a vicious war. the tone we set, especially at this early point is important

both parties answer to the corrupt 1%, not us

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[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

"the National Defense Authorization Act is a budget bill. Within that budget bill you will find bullshit, as with perhaps all budget bills. The trouble is, one a budget bill passes Congress, it becomes very difficult for the President not to sign it because of the potential to shut government down without an approved spending budget."

Also known as an excuse to pass miserable bills. They do it on purpose. Congress plays a large roll in that.

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[-] 3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

He did not have to sign it.

Blame is on congress for drafting and passing it... but blame goes to Obama as well for a lack of a veto. Congress could have over ridden the veto within the amount of time... and at least you could have said he tried.

The government would not have shut down had he not. The troops would have still gotten food.

it was indeed a scam. But it had nothing to do with "tarnishing the president" ... if that was the case why were there so many D's voting yes as well? And definitely don't forget about the senate.

The truth is congress is a war machine along with the presidents.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Everyone votes for the defense budget. voting against it is political suicide in the current republican created atmosphere of fear mongering, and well evolved republican slur against democrats of "weak on defense". To ask why so many "D's" voted for the military budget ignores the realities of American politics.

And your denial of the valid point Zen made regarding the republican strategy of tarnishing the pres ignores the republican culpability in this debacle.

Your comment that we should "Blame congress for drafting ...." covers up the fact that this is a conservative policy drafted by republicans! In fact as always yout criticism is of 'Obama" "congress" "d's" never republicans. Why do you always give repubs a by?.

They created the atmosphere that facilitated these civil rights violations you complain about, when they exploited the 9/11 attacks. They created all these policies that violate our civil rights. You never mention these facts. Is that because these facts clearly put the blame where it belongs? With the republicans you never mention? Jes aksin'

[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

I could care less about politicians who sign for indefinite detention laws for American citizens solely because they think a VETO or a NO vote is political suicide.

Those types of people are what's wrong with the government.

You do realize you're making excuses for indefinite detention laws, right?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Republicans created the concept in 2002, the law in 2011, and the atmosphere that allows these civil rights violations to thrive.

You ignore these facts because you are a anti dem partisan republican?

I am against your republican ndaa! Just like my President is!

[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Hahaha you are a fucking moron dude.

Seriously. You are a fucking moron. Go to Lee Terry's facebook page and look up all my comments trash talking him for the dirty republican he is.

But I forgot you don't like facts. You prefer to live in your dream world where Obama's talking points are truth and Obama's voting records are the republicans faults. LOLOLOLOL

Now and then I think of that election day, November When you won I felt so happy I could die Chugged a fifth, paraded in the street And I thanked God that Palin wasn't Veep It felt like change and it's a hope I still remember

You can get addicted to a certain kind of message Like this is change we can believe in, yes we can But college ended, had to pay my rent At least you're the first gay president But the change I got was that I moved in with my mother

Because you won and then you cut me off Now your speeches never soar as high as unemployment You took Obamacare so far But you left me like a dog strapped on Romney's car Even the shirt that was on my back Is owned by China or being arbitraged by Goldman Sachs Just send in a Predator Drone 'Cause now you're not Obama that I used to know

Now you're not Obama that I used to know Now I need Obama that I used to know

Sometimes I think that Peace Prize winners shouldn't have a kill list But you dumped Bin Laden in the sea so maybe it's all good Said you'd rouse my economy Your big package didn't stimulate me Still my American Idol, though When you sang, "I'm so in love with you"...Obama that I used to know

But you won and then you cut me off Made out like you'd close Guantanamo and we got nothing Relocation shouldn't be that hard Just strap the prisoners in on top of Romney's car No, I don't need you to legalize Just keep the feds away from folks like you when you were younger There's nothing that you didn't toke But now that's just Obama that I used to know

Obama That I used to know Obama That I used to know Obama That I used to know

In 2012 I need Obama that I used to know

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You've become unhinged! That anti Obama tweenage song is just bubble gum music for a bubble gum mind.

If you thought Pres Obama would or could do all those things that is your misfortune.

YOU are the fucking moron if you believed that campaign. Don't blame him! Are you so stupid you thought he was the second coming.

C'mon you can't believe he could do what he campaigned on. The powers that be are too strong. It has to be done slowly. As he is doing.

You're naivety is breathtaking. No one could do what you expect him to do. And no one could do as much as he HAS done in the face of the 1% plutocrat resistance through the republicans.

Please don't tell me you bought all the hope and change shit. I can't help you if you are using that as a measure.

I mean the best help I can offer you is to grow up. Learn a little bit about American politics & campaigns.

Listen he has made enormous progress in the face of the most powerful evil force this planet has ever witnessed. But he certainly can't do everything you think he said. It was a campaign!

And listen he would have gotten a lot more done if you and the rest of the dreamie eyed little kids didn't go back to their tv's and video games waiting for the magic to happen. We are the change we've ben waiting for. THAT you should have believed. So get off your fat suburban, entitled ass, get into the street, stop expecting people to hand you everything and work.

God damn it WORK!

Fuckin moron. Peace, Love, & UNDERSTANDING!

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[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Why are you making excuses for indefinite detention laws?

It seems like you're doing that. I really hope that is not the case. There is NO excuse for the passing of indefinite detention laws that circumvent the bill of rights.

You really think for one second that because congress didn't sign a bill that the American people would allow the troops to stop getting food? No. Shit would go business as usual.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

more partisan ant Obama non sense

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

More anti Obama partisanship. Meaningless. Unsubstantive. ignores the roots of these civil rights violations.

[-] -3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Whatever you need to tell yourself to make excuses for indefinite detention laws VQ

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago
  • How come you never mention republicans created this concept in 2002, and have been the only ones who used it?

  • How come you never mention that Pres Obama has tried to try Bushs detainees and Repubs in Congress blocked him.?

  • How come you never mention that Pres Obama signed the order to close gitmo, and Repubs in congress blocked it?

  • How come you never mention that Pres Obama has issued an executive signing statement disallowing the use of this republican violation of our civil rights?

  • How come you never mention republicans created the NDAA law?

  • How come you never mention that Dems in the House voted to repeal NDAA, and republicans defeated it?

  • How come you never mention that Pres Obama has not indefinitely detained any new people.?

  • How come you never mention that the case the AG must fight has been a clearly half hearted effort. Pres Obama has brought no witnesses, and offered no evidence. Obviously he welcomes the courts finding against this republican created violation of our civil rights.

  • How come?

Is it because you are an anti Dem partisan republican? Jes aksin'

[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Because the topic is about Obama. Zendog brought it up actually.

I put majority blame on congress for originally passing the law. But to say Obama "had to sign it" is a lie. And that's what the topic of discussion is about.

Maybe if you Obama supporters stopped making the topic about why nothing is Obama's fault then the topic wouldn't come up.

Also you are a fucking moron if you think I'm a republican. I told you I was going to call you a fucking moron every time you call me a republican.

You've gone around this site all day poking at people with your Obama 2012 propaganda and it's fucking annoying.

How come you make excuses for indefinite detention laws? How come you make excuses for still being in Afghanistan?

How come you keep quiet about issues you would have freaked out about under Bush?

How come its okay to speak out against Black water mercenaries under Bush but speaking against it today makes people republicans?

How is speaking out against indefinite detention laws being republican?

How come you are a fucking moron?

I've seen you call anarchists on this site republicans because they don't fit your agenda. Stop being a moron.

Here's the site you meant to go to - www.barackobama.com

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago
  • You NEVER blame the republican for these military/civil rights violations. I don't buy your excuse that "the topic was..."

  • You're using obscenities, and insulting me because I hit a nerve of truth and you think if you yell and squeal and bully me you can control my speech. You will not silence me.

  • I think you serve republicans with these obvious anti dem partisan attacks that never include the republican roots of these problems.

  • I am not spreading Obama 2012 propaganda. My opinions annoy you that much is clear. but I am allowed to express my opinion. It is a free country. Would you prefer a fascist state where only some opinions are allowed?. Is fascism on the right side of the political spectrum like the republicans? jes aksin'

  • I don't make excuses for Indef det. I'm against that republican created concept, policy, law. I'm glad Pres Obama has not used it. I'm glad he has tried to end it. I'm glad he is putting up no fight against the excellent court case against it. And for all these reasons, I'm sure he WILL end it. HA! Sucka!

  • you don't know what I did under that war criminal Bush. And I just said I'm against NDAA. I just can't stand your anti dem partisan attacks that never include the republican roots of the problem.

  • Black water? WTF R U talkin' about.? I'm glad Pres Obama has cut back. I know he has plans to continue that cut back. And I believe he will eliminate it. Republicans started that abusive obscenity. Lets be clear about the roots. y'know. And who is cutting back. That's honesty, Look it up!

  • I already said speaking out against NDAA is fine. I did it here. I've done it many times. I support the court case. I think that is a good approach to repeal it. I disagree with the anti dem partisan attacks that exclude the fact that republicans created, the concept,policy,law and atmosphere that allows these violations to thrive. Dems are working against it. just gotta be honest. Those are the facts.

  • I'm not a F$#king moron. I am very intelligent. You just can't stand that I have uncovered your clear bias against dems. And you especially don't like that I have suggested your anti dem partisan attacks serve the repubs. Get over it!

So I hope that clears things up for you. I support Pres Obama. Thats allowed. I support the progress he has made with our military use. I support his efforts at undoing the republican civil rights violations. But I am disappointed that he has not succeeded. I think the obstruction from repubs are a big part of that failure. I think the state of American politics has something to do with that failure. And I think the unfair sniping from ignorant people also creates obstacles.

Peace

[-] -2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Now and then I think of that election day, November When you won I felt so happy I could die Chugged a fifth, paraded in the street And I thanked God that Palin wasn't Veep It felt like change and it's a hope I still remember

You can get addicted to a certain kind of message Like this is change we can believe in, yes we can But college ended, had to pay my rent At least you're the first gay president But the change I got was that I moved in with my mother

Because you won and then you cut me off Now your speeches never soar as high as unemployment You took Obamacare so far But you left me like a dog strapped on Romney's car Even the shirt that was on my back Is owned by China or being arbitraged by Goldman Sachs Just send in a Predator Drone 'Cause now you're not Obama that I used to know

Now you're not Obama that I used to know Now I need Obama that I used to know

Sometimes I think that Peace Prize winners shouldn't have a kill list But you dumped Bin Laden in the sea so maybe it's all good Said you'd rouse my economy Your big package didn't stimulate me Still my American Idol, though When you sang, "I'm so in love with you"...Obama that I used to know

But you won and then you cut me off Made out like you'd close Guantanamo and we got nothing Relocation shouldn't be that hard Just strap the prisoners in on top of Romney's car No, I don't need you to legalize Just keep the feds away from folks like you when you were younger There's nothing that you didn't toke But now that's just Obama that I used to know

Obama That I used to know Obama That I used to know Obama That I used to know

In 2012 I need Obama that I used to know

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Little boy found a new song he likes? Yes? ok go in your room and play it.

Adorable.

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[-] -2 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

NDAA 2012 indefinite detention, HR347 criminalizing dissent, HR658 authorizing domestic drones, HR3606 legalizing penny stock boiler rooms, the death sentences for thousands of innocent civilians falsely labelled as "militants" or written off as collateral damage - ALL SIGNED BY OBAMA!

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Anti Obama partisanship that ignores the roots of these civil rights violations.

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[-] -2 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

More doublespeak and drivel: You are either confused about the issue or trying to create confusion for others.

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[-] -3 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

I was in Nebraska

where were you?

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[+] -4 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

In 1997 I was 10 years old. I was probably playing with micro machines and legos.

also i supported putting the alleged captured members of al qaeda up on trial. To suggest I wasn't is a lie.

[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Partisan's disease, there is no known cure. This case is so severe it has progressed to Messiah's disease. Permanent blindness.

[-] 0 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Then why is Obama fighting the lawsuit regarding the indefinite detention provisons?

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[-] -3 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Is there anything Obama could do to lose your support? Any behavior you wouldn't find a way to excuse? Any line you won't cross? Any principle you won't abdicate?

The president is a named defendant and therefore the decision to defend, or not, is completely within his control.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The law dictates that the AG defend these lawsuits. But they have put up no fight.

Why are all criticism of Pres Obama.? Republicans created all these violations of our civil rights. Republicans created the fear mongering atmosphere that allows all this to thrive when they exploited the 9/11 attacks.

You cover up republican crimes and attack the guy making progress against them. You sound partisan. Are you a partisan republican?

[-] 0 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

Why do you continue to lie about Obama fighting the NDAA lawsuit? The lawsuit and appeal is a matter of public record. https://www.stopndaa.org/aboutLawsuit

The law does not dictate that the AG must defend all lawsuits. For example, Pres Obama (to his credit) instructed the Justice Dept not to defend challenges to the Defense of Marriage Act. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/us/holder-backs-equal-benefits-for-gay-couples-in-military.html

I am not covering up Republican crimes by pointing out the truth of Obama's handling of the NDAA. I criticize Obama for continuing, and expanding, the constitutional rights violations of the Bush presidency.

I try to avoid partisanship. Partisanship is killing our country. I form my opinions on issues based on the merits and my principles, rather than the party affiliation of the elected official. How about you?

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You cover up republican crimes by never mentioning them! Republicans create the NDAA concept/policy in 2002, they wrote the law in 2011, the defeated the dem attempt at repeal on may 28 2012, Repubs created the fear mongering atmosphere (by exploiting the attacks on 9/11) that allowed all these civil rights violations. This you leave out. Pres Obama has not indef detained any new cases. This is what you leave out.

Let me assure you we live in a 2 party system. I wish we didn't but we do. All our problems are rooted in conservative policies. Electing progressive to enact progressive solutions is the only way forward.

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[-] -1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 2 years ago

So as long as he says the right things, it doesn't matter what he does?

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[+] -5 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

How much longer until you finally have it figured out?

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[+] -5 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

NDAA 2012 indefinite detention, HR347 criminalizing dissent, HR658 authorizing domestic drones, HR3606 legalizing penny stock boiler rooms, the death sentences for thousands of innocent civilians falsely labelled as "militants" or written off as collateral damage - ALL SIGNED BY OBAMA!

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

More anti Obama partisanship.

[-] 0 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

NOTHING is that post was partisan, poser. Obama is bad news. Romney is no better.

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[-] -2 points by OwsRevolutionary (0) 2 years ago

Doublespeak and drivel: You are either confused about the issue or trying to confuse others. Same applies to your post below...

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[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

If they supported attacking Libya, they will support attacking Iran.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Or better yet, why didnt he seize this as a HUGE media opportunity to expose whats going on and put himself at a higher level?

Because he doesnt give a fuck.

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[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

DC could care less about deadlines, unless its to their pr strategy advantage.

They cant even pass a budget. And a third of what they spend is on the credit card. Obama signing this on new years eve (shockingly coincidence) via silent signature was extremely telling.

If he can decide to drop bombs on people, he can decide that the American public needs to address that bill.

[-] -1 points by MadInMedfordOR (1) 2 years ago

"the National Defense Authorization Act is a budget bill. Within that budget bill you will find bullshit, as with perhaps all budget bills. The trouble is, one a budget bill passes Congress, it becomes very difficult for the President not to sign it because of the potential to shut government down without an approved spending budget."

You were already busted on this bullshit, ZenDog. People, search Twitter hashtags #ndaa, #ndaa2012, #ndaa2013, #indefinitedetention and #domesticpropaganda. If you get no results go to Google.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Just more partisan anti Obama non sense.

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[-] -1 points by MadInMedfordOR (1) 2 years ago

You MUST be a plant. For other readers, Sections 1021/1022 of NDAA 2012 codify AUMF 2001 and the indefinite detention without charge or trial of American citizens on American soil. Obama's signing statement saying he would not do that means nothing for two reasons: (1) Presidential Signing Statements are political documents which - like campaign promises - carry no force of law or penalty for breach; (2) even if they did, the statement exempts detention by the MILITARY only, leaving DHS and the other 15 security trolls free reign to round us up and ship us to the Montana Gulags. Learn more by Googling this:

NDAA indefinite detention Chris Hedges

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[-] 0 points by MadInMedfordOR (1) 2 years ago

That is the picture of a mental patient whose identity could easily have been stolen and I suspect was.

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[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6569) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

about 2/3 of the Ds voted against NDAA 2013 and about 98% of the Rs voted for it, so if you care about that sort of thing I guess you work to elect Ds and get rid of Rs

http://votesmart.org/bill/votes/39897