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Forum Post: War/Death by Drone. Is it really a good policy? Or is it a War crime? An open letter 7/30/2012

Posted 2 years ago on July 28, 2012, 3:18 p.m. EST by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Sent this day 7/30/2012 An Open Letter Addressed to The President of the United States of America and to all of the currently seated members of Government and to all of the citizens of the USA to the people of the world and to all governments. Please Handle and deliver/share as you would a letter delivered by the USPS.

Mr. President and all currently seated members of Government and to all the citizens of the USA, to the governments and people of the world.

1st let me state that these letters I send to you I also send out on social media to all of the citizens of the USA to read as well - and I suppose it could be considered as open letters to the world also.

Anyway today's subject: War by Drone. Good policy? or War crime against civilians?

The government/military has found a way to make the killing of innocent human shields/bystanders acceptable to the large part of the public - "They were Collateral Damage" the terrorist targeted and killed was just unfortunately in their vicinity. It was not reported by the spotter/intelligence on the ground that innocents were in the vicinity ( plausible deny-ability ). Which does not even begin to address the correction of such things or suggest stop using a program because it is fatally flawed. Hell it does not even acknowledge the fact of a human operator of the drone with a camera/eyes of his own to surveil the situation.


If you would like to contact the President:

http://www.barackobama.com/contact-us/ or email info2012@barackobama.com

You can also make contact here:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/submit-questions-and-comments 3 Comments

75 Comments

75 Comments


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[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Sent this day 7/30/2012 An Open Letter Addressed to The President of the United States of America and to all of the currently seated members of Government and to all of the citizens of the USA to the people of the world and to all governments. Please Handle and deliver/share as you would a letter delivered by the USPS.

Mr. President and all currently seated members of Government and to all the citizens of the USA, to the governments and people of the world.

1st let me state that these letters I send to you I also send out on social media to all of the citizens of the USA to read as well - and I suppose it could be considered as open letters to the world also.

Anyway today's subject: War by Drone. Good policy? or War crime against civilians?

The government/military has found a way to make the killing of innocent human shields/bystanders acceptable to the large part of the public - "They were Collateral Damage" the terrorist targeted and killed was just unfortunately in their vicinity. It was not reported by the spotter/intelligence on the ground that innocents were in the vicinity ( plausible deny-ability ). Which does not even begin to address the correction of such things or suggest stop using a program because it is fatally flawed. Hell it does not even acknowledge the fact of a human operator of the drone with a camera/eyes of his own to surveil the situation.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (410) 2 years ago

There is an increased probability of a new arms race since drones are very cheap compared to nuclear weapons.

Drones Today and Tomorrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMh8Cjnzen8&feature=autoplay&list=PL8067BFE4709E6222&playnext=15 [right click]

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Good letter.

Our nation's founders would be aghast at the evil our government has embraced.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thanks - please forward/share/circulate this post for others to see read and consider.

The government may not read these letters - But the public should see them and perhaps write and send some letters of their own. Foster awareness foster thought/consideration it may well foster activity.

[-] 1 points by JackHall (410) 2 years ago

The War on Terror is a fraud.

Three Stooges vs Australian 911 Truth Architects and Engineers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkzdV_NDI4E&feature=youtu.be [right click]

The Patriot Act came first. Then warrantless wiretapping followed. Now prepare for the flying robot nuisance. Despite what you believe, public relations follows a secret recipe to manipulate public perception, and opinion. Our legislative bodies have been artfully duped. A century of decadent consumption has created industrialized mass production monsters.

Public relations (PR) is the practice of managing the flow of information between an individual or an organization and the public. Public relations provides an organization or individual exposure to their audiences using topics of public interest and news items that do not require direct payment. The aim of public relations by a company often is to persuade the public, investors, partners, employees, and other stakeholders to maintain a certain point of view about it, its leadership, products, or of political decisions. Common activities include speaking at conferences, winning industry awards, working with the press, and employee communication.

The First Drones Games

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ9tVxPkunI&list=PLE724501BDD60E5F7&feature=view_all [right click]

How to Brainwash a Nation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ8ZvYNlxiM&feature=related [right click]

[-] 1 points by ThomasKent (131) 2 years ago

Unmanned Aerial Vehicles UAVs are obviously the most advanced machines ever created. They have uses ranging from the sublime reconnaissance of our solar system and neighboring planets to being the dreaded angels of death that plague the mountain sides of Pakistan and Afghanistan, and the deserts of Yemen and everything imaginable and unimaginable in between.

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (4784) 2 years ago

Good post DKA.

No innocent person on earth is safe, from the "Corporate War of Agression".

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Thanks Nevada1 - will you be tweeting this post? {:-])

[-] 0 points by Nevada1 (4784) 2 years ago

Will spread the word. Have not used Twitter, but will check it out.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Cool - I don't care how people share - just that they do. And I know I can always count on you to share/circulate.

It is part of my advocacy to promote communications. So I plug it constantly. {:-])

[-] 1 points by Nevada1 (4784) 2 years ago

With media blackout, nothing stopping drone attacks in US.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Justus working for justice.

Those of us trying to circulate the news by social media and word of mouth - protests demonstrations.

Nice that we can communicate/share with the world. I am hoping that the more we share the more others will share/circulate as well.

To fix/heal this society/world it is gonna take the involvement of the individuals the population the average citizen.

Support issues - people.

Confront issues - people.

People - speak-up and speak-out.

[-] 1 points by nomdeguerre (1775) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

A war crime, no question -- most strikes don't occur in war zones and verification of hostile intention of targets seems to be impossible. On top of that, the purpose is terrorizing, not war fighting.

I am ashamed that my U.S. military has come to rely on terror (out of control drone targetting, terror night raids, disappearing locals on mere suspicion, etc.).

The pilots and civilians in the drone program actually need to worry that they might be arrested as murderers if they leave the U.S.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Please share that comment with others - tweet this post or write an open letter to government and post it here on this forum and post it out on social media for others to consider. I will tweet it also as I recommend everyone to do the same to circulate and share good food for thought.

Communications raise awareness raise support raise involvement.

[-] 1 points by Builder (4202) 2 years ago

Drones are being used in an allied nation, Pakistan, to "take out" suspected targets. The Pakistani govt was pissed to the max when Bin Laden was taken out by ground forces landing near his hideout.

No apology was sought or offered for that action.

Current Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton has recorded and sent an apology to the Pakistani admin for the "non-combatant" fatalities involved in un-authorised drone strikes in that country.

An apology is an admission of guilt, in any case, or court of law.

The fact that a guilty plea does not change the way these drones are used, is an admission of fascism, as was the the murder of Bin Laden, and the acceptance of the public hanging of Iraq's Hussein, and the street murder of Libya's Qaddafi.

There is no democracy in the "democratic" republic of America. It's a fascist state run by corporations.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We need to stop drone killing our supposed "enemies".

We don't need to hunt, capture, indefinitely detain or kill anyone. The republicans created this atmosphere of fear mongering endless war on terror in order to implement a strategy of constant war. It serves the conservative plutocrat military industrial complex and the republican base. And the so called "terrorists" do not pose the threat we were led to believe by the fear mongering republicans!

Republicans have ingrained so much fear in the society and effectively labeled democrats weak on defense that the only way to step back requires many citizens coming together to show our disgust.

It's the only way. It will take years.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

CorpoRATist - not republican - as they are not republic in any way shape or form.

Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic A republic is a form of government in which the state is considered a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), not the private concern or property of the rulers, and ...


They are just trying to hide behind the ideal of republic so that people who support the republican party will support them - but "they" are not republican.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Some do not think conservative/republicans are the problem. Thats fine. You are entitled. I believe republicans proudly trumpet the conservative policies that benefit the 1% plutocrat CorpoRATists.

Some dems always cave in and vote for these republican/conservative policies and so those dems are responsible and need to be voted out.

But the fact remains the corpoRATS are squealing like stuck pigs for repealing all dem/progressive progress we make (watered down by repubs) and are intensely pushing/supporting republican/conservative policies that benefit the 1% plutocrats.

Some here make it difficult to support Dems but I can't pretend that Repubs ARE not the problem.

Please Elect progressives. Vote out pro 1% plutocrat conservatives.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Lets try this again - there are those in office right now that do not support the people - they clearly support corpoRATions/money/greed - the majority of these individuals they call themselves republican - officially that is the party that they belong to - but in actuality that party does not exist at this point in time - it has been co-opted by the CorpoRATions & CorpoRATists. In all actuality the party is the CorpoRATist Party. As it has nothing to do with Republic.

Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic A republic is a form of government in which the state is considered a "public matter" (Latin: res publica), not the private concern or property of the rulers, and ...

Peace.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I agree with you 100%, except I wouldn't say the republican party "does not exist". I suppose that is semantics.

In any event I think we are in agreement. Any politician who supports the 1% plutocrat corporats over the 99% should be voted out.

"Peace, Love, & understanding. (whasso funny 'bout it?)" EC

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

nuttin funny about corpoRATists controlling government.

UP with People. {:-])

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

"Power to the People, right on" JL

[-] 1 points by ARod1993 (2420) 2 years ago

Here's the thing; drones by themselves are not bad nor evil; in fact, deploying drones in a responsible and transparent fashion during the course of a war may in fact be used to reduce civilian and noncombatant casualties while allowing us to take out the people we need to take out quickly and efficiently. Taking drones off the table altogether, as far as I'm concerned, is as grave a tactical error as letting them roam about with nobody supervising what happens.

The issue with drones is that there is no real public oversight of how or against whom they are used, and when someone screws up or crosses a line we don't find out about it until a week later when something winds up on the evening news (and half the time that's only partially accurate). What I'd like to see is a requirement for an independent judge (or panel thereof) to thoroughly examine the rationale for drone strikes involving noncitizens (with the option for the judge to refuse to issue a death warrant if he believes the strike is unjustified). For US citizens abroad, the prerequisite should be a full public trial in abstentia and conviction of a capital crime.

That said, I do agree with you about the idea of using fear to prevent serious inquiry into the messes our government seems to have a knack for getting into. No amount of technology (or lack thereof, short of weakening us to the point of being unable to defend ourselves) is going to keep us out of stupid conflicts if the government decides to engage in them and the people refuse to demand oversight; what we need is a much greater degree of accountability from the military and the end of mercenary firms such as Blackwater.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I think these days we have justified the attacks (drone or otherwise) on "the enemy" because we are in this endless "war on terror". That is what must end. The "terrorists" only increase their membership when we kill them. And we should not be hunting and killing people anywhere (here are foriegn countries) without trial.

Part of the problem is that drones allow for low risk to American troops. This has reduce American public outcry. but the concept of hunting and killing our enemies is patently wrong and we only accept it because of the fear mongering that republicans created after exploiting the 9/11 attacks.

I believe Pres Obama is attempting to end the fear mongering and we must continue agitating that he stop the drone bombings,

[-] 0 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

The reason that mercenary firms such as Blackwater thrive is because the U.S. populace likes to see reduced number of military personnel and expenditure during peacetime. Once conflicts start, there come great needs to bulk up our military with contingent forces such as Blackwater. Of course, by then, there will be ample justifications for funding the contingent forces but they are NOT as accountable or bound by the same rules as regular troops.

Accountability is what we need to build into our military forces, drones and Blackwater alike. We should not swear off of the usage of drones because they are indeed often "casualty-lighter" than the old ways. We do have still quite a way to go to achieve zero collateral damage but that can be approached by improving sensors and intelligence, especially improved intelligence from our "allies." The best way is to achieve conflict resolution without resorting to force at all.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Mercenary firms have thrived (under Bushfor the 1st time) in order to have a force that could do things that could not be attributed to the US military.

The cost is much higher than the military proper so it ain't the money. Bush also liked using these corps (blackwater, etc) because they are clearly owned and made up of republican constituents. Pres Obama has cut down merc use and will eliminate as he should.

Negotiation is the best way to resolve conflicts without use of force, but we shuld never use mercenaries. We should have learned that lesson after the last debacle.

[-] 0 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

Extra-judicial operations and deniability seemed to be a rather ancient concept renewed often. From Watergate, Iran-Contra, and so on, our Presidents craved operating out of bounds.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

We do whatever we want. We run the planet. And are running it into the ground.

USA, USA.! ;)

[-] 1 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

Hypocrisy is a sign of "modern maturity."

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Cool. what are you tryin to say?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

We teach our kids that honesty is the best policy. Of course, they should tell us parents everything! It is actually only the first approximation to what we really try to achieve. Then come the Santa Claus gifts and our eventual realization that our parents were just telling tall tales and pulling our legs. That was a gain in maturity. When we grow up and learn about all of these ridiculously complex rules that we must live by, we have a real fit. Eventually, some of us realize that it is all just a game. Honesty is NOT the best policy. Chiaroscuro is high art. Tact, grace, diplomacy, and magnanimity are all hinting at the huge varieties of shades of gray. We have finally achieved "modern maturity" when we can live with hypocrisy in peace and truly take to heart the principle of complementarity. That is when we have in a sense become oysters which had encapsulated hypocrisy into pearls and become real.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Yeah. Whatever you say. I think it is better to be honest.

You went a long way to basically say it is ok to lie. It ain't.

Sorry. Good luck to you.

Peace

[-] 2 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

There are degrees of concealment of information that fill the continuum from total honesty to outright lie. We mostly operate somewhere in between. Nothing great or interesting comes out of simple uniform symmetry. To be truly beautiful, a broken symmetry is required. If you try to grasp the totality of human conditions, you will eventually realize that concealment of information is not necessarily bad. There are white lies that are often justified by the good wills behind them.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

That is very deep and profound.

I will ponder this along with the meaning of life.

Thank you.

Peace.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

Ponder what you may do if you know that your loved one will die for sure by a certain day. Do you tell them the truth and ruin their days till then or do you keep your mouth shut till the day they have to put their affairs in order? I believe that a white lie is called for.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Ok.

You are very considerate.

Peace.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

But - if that loved one can make real changes and save their life - then the absolute Bald Faced truth is required.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

Yes, that however requires judgment and human judgment is fallible, I will be the first to admit to that. I accept that I am fallible and do the best that I can by questioning my judgment in light of new information. I am not above administering morphine to alleviate pain even though it may be banned under "zero-tolerance" laws.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

it's a war crime for sure.

[-] 1 points by fairforall (279) 2 years ago

should obama be tried on such grounds?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

i think so

probably will never happen. Bush killed over a million people and he still walks to this day.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

all wars are criminal

[-] 0 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

And all states have at one time or another indulged in war(s), so does that make all states criminal, according to whose laws, and who will enforce those laws? The U.N.? Really? Now ask the people of Syria for their experience with the U.N. which had NO power to enforce promises that were made to it. Russia and China were the permanent members of the U.N. Security Council that had vetoed the Chapter 7 enforcement resolution.

Former President Clinton decided not to mount timely attack on al-Qaeda base camp due to qualms about collateral damage. Eventually, that bubbled up into 9/11 and its bloody aftermath. Clinton only lobbed some cruise missiles after the bombings of the U.S. embassies in East Africa. Cruise missiles were a form of drones but they were very blind compared to present-day drones. Proper targeting had been greatly improved since the Clinton years so collateral damage could in principle be greatly reduced. The drone programs enjoyed bipartisan administration support for years because it satisfied the defense needs and avoided the dirty business of capturing and keeping prisoners.

Let me be really clear about it. EVERY single person on this Earth has a price on their head and that price is higher for some than for others, however much the demagogues may want us to believe otherwise. When it is time to trade lives against lives, those prices ARE taken into account. Remember that even during the sinking of the Titanic disaster, first-class passengers were offered better life chances than others. We may all be on the Titanic but there are still class differences if push comes to shove. The best scenario for all is for our Titanic to arrive safely in port but that will take vigilance and coordination.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

exactly

war is always against someones law

no one likes killing

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

that too. Good point.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

tweet this post let others come to the same conclusion and we will be that much closer to ending it.

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

i don't tweet... but I do talk to all my friends about the wars all the time. Some of it sticks.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

tweeted.

[-] 0 points by brightonsage (4494) 2 years ago

We have a narrow window to get the policy right, before the rest of the world starts using them (if they aren't already). Taking a position we really want to accept from others might prevent a free for all. It eventually needs to be a UN policy and a World Court position to keep our pols from being prosecuted in the World Court. Anything less is US Exceptionalism (Arrogance) which is wearing thin.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes - we ( the world ) need to speak-out now - loud and clear. Killing of civilians is not acceptable - never was acceptable - never will be acceptable. The ends DO NOT justify the means.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

The Brutalities of WAR can be horrific on a magnitude scale.

But when we look at each individual pain and suffering, is the brutality any less ?

Where is the justification for War ? Who were the perpetrators of all this pain and suffering ?

Even though I do not condone any actions of WAR, I can surely understand the United States decision to declare war on terror directly after the horrible event of 9/11. But , I still do not clearly understand the justification for the 9/11 attack itself ???

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I don't know as we will ever understand the attack on 9/11. I do know that a war on terror can not be prosecuted in the same way as war on a country a country's military forces. The enemy hides among the civilian population - conventional warfare is not effective as it kills more innocents than terrorists.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

..well ..conventional warfare may be effective... considering: if there were terrorists hiding out in my neighborhood.. and all the "innocents" were "plausibly denying" they knew nothing about the terrorists where abouts ... well when the conventional bombings begin to fall , ..perhaps some of those innocents will sart to "know of the where abouts of those hiding terrorists .. It's hard to say whom among the enemy is truly innocent.. I remeber seeing a news video of muslims children celebrating.. laughing and smiling joyfully .. directly following the 9/11 horrible attack .. now I am not sure what part of the world that video was taken , but it was surely evident of what was in their hearts.. nothing innocent there at all . I also remember , ..during the first attack on afghanistan .. a video of three trucks loaded with children hanging from all the sides of the trucks ,.. and it was presumed inside those trucks were the top leaders of the terrorists .. but, the American fighter planes would not fire a missile on those trucks .. and the enemy got away.. ..

War is hell DKAtoday.. but if we do not stop the enemy , they will keep coming...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

YES - the corpoRATions will keep coming on their program/war of rape and pillage of the world and it's populations for profits/resources.

You ever think that those smiling laughing dancing happy civilians were ecstatic because #1 they have experienced 1st hand the abuses of corpoRATions(?) #2 This strike on the Financial Monster was not seen in the number of innocent people killed - but in a strike against CorpoRAT monsters? #3 Do you think those people have freedom of information and a full understanding of the world in which they are a part of?

Export peace not abuse/war. Then we will see a different world.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

When I seen the attack on the twin towers, I was completely horrified and in shock, and when I seen children celebrating such horror ... I could not understand what hearts our enemy has. To celebrate such visciousness.. Here in the west , we do not celebrate such visciousness .. look at people like yourself , do you celebrate the bombings by drones that have killed presumed innocents ? No , of course not .. and why not ? why do you not jump in joy and laughter .. after what their people have done on 9/11 ? Why do you condemn such horrible actions .. and yet justify their horrible actions .. Rethink DKA

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I am not trying to justify anyones horrible actions.

But you don't think that there were celebrations and dancing in the streets here in the USA and around the world when the assault on Iraq began? The Air strikes of shock and awe. The military on the ground rolling-up Saddam Insane's forces like a rug. The capture trial and killing of Sadman Insane and his kids. I think the world is a better place without Sadman and his progeny.

But you can't say the 9/11 terrorist attack was launched or even supported from Iraq.

Consideration of all the facts are necessary.

[-] 1 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

I understand, ..in times of such great emotion and turmoil ..our minds and heads get twisted around in many directions .. and the frustrations build inside all of us ..as to what to do about all this .. As we try to keep a balance of right and wrong as our guiding light.

If there is one thing we must learn from 9/11, is never let a threat go unattended.

Iraq was a possible threat.

When the enmey is taken down .. it is not celebration I feel. I felt no joy in the execution of saddam.. even though all the horrible things he done.. there was no joy inside my heart.

Iraq is still a troubled country, But , I am thankful to the United States for going in there and giving the Iraqi people ..FREEDOM. ,and removing such a terrible dictator.. many American soldiers lost their lives over there .. and many suffer injury . Thank you to all whom participated in over throwing such a horrible regime, and may the innocent people of Iraq find peace and happiness one day.

[-] -1 points by vvv0729 (-189) 2 years ago

Writing "open letters" to corporate puppet politicians and posting them to forums like this is not only a complete waste of writer's and readers' time but also counterproductive. Here are just a few reasons why:

(1) Politicians rarely read the letters and emails sent to them by their constituents, and likely never see those that are posted to forums.

(2) Even if they read this letter - which is unlikely - by writing to them in this manner you reinforce that they have the power and you don't - that they are the master and you are the serf. You empower them by subjugating yourself.

(3) Other slacktivists seeing such letters posted to forums like this may be encouraged to write and post similar letters thinking that they make a difference, when the reality is they are little more than feel-good mental masturbation.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You are entitled to your apathetic belief or is it your attempt to have people continue to opt-out of getting involved?

The letters as I have stated before while addressed to the government they are also addressed to the public to the world for consideration.

I really do not care if the government reads and/or responds to the letters. They are getting them anyway.

By sharing them with the public on social media I intend to allow people to read them and make their own decisions about what is going on and maybe they will want to write letters of their own to be read or not read by government - but shared with the public/world for their consideration. This expression of thoughts may start to tell on government as the mail they are sent increases. But even if it does not the exercise of venting communicating may well inspire people to get more involved.


[-] -1 points by vvv0729 (-4) 25 minutes ago

Writing "open letters" to corporate puppet politicians and posting them to forums like this is not only a complete waste of writer's and readers' time but also counterproductive. Here are just a few reasons why:

(1) Politicians rarely read the letters and emails sent to them by their constituents, and likely never see those that are posted to forums.

(2) Even if they read this letter - which is unlikely - by writing to them in this manner you reinforce that they have the power and you don't - that they are the master and you are the serf. You empower them by subjugating yourself.

(3) Other slacktivists seeing such letters posted to forums like this may be encouraged to write and post similar letters thinking that they make a difference, when the reality is they are little more than feel-good mental masturbation. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink


[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (11257) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 minutes ago

And yet you concern yourself with as you say - My Waste Of Time - Because you are altruistic?

Um I don't think so.

You attack me and my posts and comments because you fear that others will see the truth and sense in them and start getting involved.

Otherwise you would leave me alone instead of stalking my comments and posts.


[-] 0 points by vvv0729 (-4) 1 minute ago

Nothing I wrote favors apathy or "opting out" of getting involved, liar:

YOU are the one who is not involved, DKAtoday, although you work hard to project otherwise. Your "open letters" serve no positive purpose for all the reasons I listed above, none of which are negated by your trollish blathering. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

So - WHY DO YOU BOTHER WITH ATTACKING ME - Hhmmm?


[-] 1 points by vvv0729 (-4) 0 minutes ago

I said nothing about the veracity of your "open letters". Instead I pointed out that they are a counterproductive waste of time. Also, they do not qualify you as "being involved", DKAtoday. You're not even in the loop... ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink

[-] 0 points by vvv0729 (-189) 2 years ago

WHY "DKATODAY" SHOULD BE PERMANENTLY BANNED FROM THE OCCUPY WALL STREET FORUM & OWS MOVEMENT

According to this document, the Occupy Wall Street forum is infested with pro-regime partisan propagandists, and "DKAtoday" is one of their leaders:

http://pastebin.com/9bLFYdFZ

The former assertion is irrefutable, but the latter we question. If DKAtoday is an Obamapologist plant like Factsrfun admits he is, he is not a very good one. Virtually all of his posts are either impotent and uninspiring slacktivism or the ad hominem personal attacks of a troll. A troll DKAtoday certainly is, but a planted propagandist perhaps not.

DKAtoday is a liar, not a leader. We have seen that evidenced in exchanges like this one:

BUSTED! DKAtoday claimed he was too broke to drive 500 miles to Chicago for the NATO protests, but admits here he has plenty of cash for 32-inch monitors and Tempur-Pedic Adjustable Beds. If there is an award for wannabes/posers, the lying little Prick wins it hands down!

http://occupywallst.org/forum/raise-the-minimum-wage-to-10-an-hour/#comment-757926

BUSTED AGAIN! DKAtoday claimed he bought a PC in 2002 that CAME with a 32-inch monitor? Scan and post the invoice, LIAR. 32-inch LCD monitors weren't mass-marketed before 2005.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/raise-the-minimum-wage-to-10-an-hour/#comment-757934

BUSTED YET AGAIN! In one post DKAtoday claimed claimed the 32-inch monitor came with the PC he bought in 2002. He now says he did not take the monitor that came with that PC. So was Dan lying THEN or is he lying NOW? There is no third alternative.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/raise-the-minimum-wage-to-10-an-hour/#comment-757948

When challenged DKAtoday displays cowardice, not courage. If he feels threatened on the forum, he runs to moderator Jart and seeks to hide behind her skirts. If he perceives the threat to be IRL, he labels the alleged actor as a "terrorist" and openly calls for him or her to be arrested and done away with by Big Brother's modern-day Gestapo, e.g.:

"[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (9870) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 minutes ago"

"Yeah? well whoever the hell you have been bothering I hope has contacted the police and I hope they track you down - FBI - federal offense - you may get disappear'ed for being a terrorist under the determination of Homeland Security laws."

http://occupywallst.org/forum/abuse-report-sent-to-the-forum-site/#comment-776267

I ask you: Would any true believer in what Occupy Wall Street stands for wish such a fate on anyone? Would any real revolutionary? Would any principled activist?

OF COURSE NOT.

These are the words of a Quisling collaborator, not an OWS protester or supporter. Arrest calls like DKAtoday's are made by fearmongering fascists, not fearless freedom fighters. They have no place in our forum - or our movement.

This is why DKAtoday should be permanently banned from both.

http://pastebin.com/n2B7ZMXy

[-] -1 points by tedscrat70 (-35) 2 years ago

I have no problem with the killing of these militants. They have hijacked the religion of islam and turned it into their own twisted version of martyr paradise for any desparate whacko who wants to perform jihad.
Up until World War I, the way to wipe out an enemy was to send in thousands upon thousands of troops to try to wipe out an enemy of equal thousands. By the time of World War II, the allies were able to send B-17's and B-29's to bomb targets and troop positions. It saved a substantial number of lives of the allies, but at the expense of hundreds of thousands of civilians; targetting was still just by sight. Operation Desert Storm in 1991 brought about the abilify to use laser guidance and satelite imaging to pinpoint targets within a city. Now, the allies can use drones to do the same thing. This is a cost savings and it protects the lives of the allies. Believe it or not, this is a remarkable progress in precision bombing against people who are our enemies. There was no fear mongering on the part of anyone. It was the work of at least 19 muslims, that is right, middle eastern muslim males, that ended the lives of 3,000 peole on 9/11. Now I suppose we could turn the greater part of the northwest territory of Pakistan and Afghanistan into a nuclear parking lot. No one would miss them. Until we can maybe booby trap individual Korans or something like that, this really is the least costly method of taking these people out.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You have apparently missed the point.

Re-read and consider what is being said:

The government/military has found a way to make the killing of innocent human shields/bystanders acceptable to the large part of the public - "They were Collateral Damage" the terrorist targeted and killed was just unfortunately in their vicinity. It was not reported by the spotter/intelligence on the ground that innocents were in the vicinity ( plausible deny-ability ). Which does not even begin to address the correction of such things or suggest to stop using a program because it is fatally flawed. Hell it does not even acknowledge the fact of a human operator of the drone with a camera/eyes of his/her own to surveil the situation that they are firing a missile into.

[-] -1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

The killing of innocent people has been pretty accepted in warfare since WWII, it is not new. And there would be collateral damage whether it is a drone or a manned aircraft. It isn't as if someone flying a stealth fighter is able to investigate a target for innocents before firing his missile. The drones are cheaper and don't risk the lives of our servicemen.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That is a bullshit argument to justify killing civilians. Hell put out a contract on the terrorists and get them as they surface - try them - lock em up for life if there is evidence to do so - kill them if there is evidence to do so - but do not kill civilians to kill the terrorist - there is no justification for that.

[-] -1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Oh I am not saying it makes it right, I am just saying that the concept of collateral damage is not new. Innocent civilians were purposely targeted pretty extensively by both sides in WWII.

And most of these countries kill a lot more of their innocent civilians themselves than our drones do.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

This is not WWII.

We should not be killing their civilians.

Your argument still has no merit.

[-] -1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

They also shouldn't be killing their own civilians but that doesn't stop them.

If you were President and your intelligence informed you that they had the location of a person/persons plotting harm on the US, what exactly is it you would do?

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Try to get the intelligence people to get photographs of the group. Continue to monitor them and pick them up if they came to America.

Why what would you do(?) drop a bomb on their meeting place(?) in the middle of a community of innocent civilians?

[-] 1 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

That was almost exactly what the U.S. did with some of the 9/11 plotters. What happened on 9/11/2001? Do we really want to count on our Famed Bureau of Incompetence again to catch these people in time?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Not with their current leadership. The corrupt must go. There must be a re-dedication to duty. Re-dedication to service to the People and the Constitution - Service to Humanity.

[-] 1 points by grapes (3256) 2 years ago

It is easier said than done because the powers that be use the pretext of "fighting terrorists" to advance their cause and tighten their grips on the populace using the already data-constipated "to-serve-and-protect" crowd. We heard that from Moammar Gadhafi and more recently from Assad.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

And that is why the people need to reclaim/own their government.

[-] 0 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Honestly yes I would rather they drop a bomb. Monitor them and pick them up if they come to America? What if they come behind the controls of a 747? Or if they sneak in? If you are living in the vicinity of a known terrorist you should either move, report his location so they can be arrested by local authorities, or keep an eye to the sky.

[-] -1 points by foreeverLeft (-264) 2 years ago

It's only a war crime if a Republican does it.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26700) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Bullshit.

No wonder U R forever Left

Behind

Out

Unconsidered

Unremarked

Alone