Forum Post: Who here thinks charging interest on money you don't have is doing work?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 1:11 p.m. EST by zapschaft
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Sorry I should have worded that better before.
Money as an end in itself. Why do we participate in taking out a 30 year mortgage for a home we could build ourselves in the natural world(No gov, no social structure, etc.) in less than 3 years. Why have we accepted that it is the will of god that bankers using fractional reserve banking( Money they don't have), should be given divine right to print money from nothing, sit on their ass and collect interest, above cost, while the rest of society goes to hell? We knew this was wrong 500 years ago, why are we still participating in it?
Any explanation? This is absolutely fascinating.
I'm really curious to know how many people here think lending out money you don't have and charging interest, above operational costs, on that is doing work.
How many of you?
Folks, please stop perpetuating the risk and reward horseshit. If you want to accept that then it sure as hell better apply to everyone, not just bankers. If a banker makes 1,000,000 a year and risks what he doesn't have to "earn that money", then a soldier should be payed 50,000,000 a year for risking his life.
I love it! As an American vet you hit that nail right on the head. Plus, why does my bank want to sit 1 to 3 days on my VA Direct Deposit? Why, to earn the interest on that money, of course. Costs them nothing and they make a few bucks on the side.
Like I said before, this risk and reward bullshit is gonna crash and burn one day as it should.
Fractional reserve banking is how the Federal Reserve increases the money supply. They also take money out of the supply at will.
The system works until too many bank customers demand their cash. Is it fair..?? Is it right..?? Hard to say, but the big banks are the money conduit between the Fed and the consumer.
The dollar, like all other currencies, is fiat money. All fiat currencies through history (fiat=not backed by anything) eventualy fail.
If you think all that is insane, Google this; batter coated french fries fresh vegetables
Several years ago a Federal judge in Texas legally ruled that battered french fry producers can label their product as fresh vegetables.
My point is that anything can become standard practice if the law allows for it.
Change the reserve banking practice and you do away with that bit of insanity....if you can change it.
Aristotle was against interest, Shakespeare & Hitler too. (Abolishing interest was one of the National Socialist Party Program planks.)
Not as much Federal tax on interest "earned" versus wages.
30-years of slavery to buy a house and the interest payment add 1/3rd of the cost if not more.
Interest is not evil in and of its self. I would much rather see a fixed fee type of approach. If I have a resource, money in this instance, and you don't. There is a simple supply and demand curve here. I am willing to give you my resource, money, on the basis that I will get something more in return, more money later.
I'd rather abolish money but I don't see that happening before Babylon falls.
http://666ismoney.com/MoneyQuotes.html
A time backed currency might work and would put an end to most cannibalism and exploitation.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Transcendent_Economy_Exploring_other_mod.html?id=LEacVLUyH4AC
That would certainly work during the transition. Half the ppl in U$A work at unnecessary jobs: banker, sales, insurance, real estate, cashier, selling junk food, etc..
If the banks can charge interest on money they do not have then the Cooperative of Citizens should charge the banks (interest with administration costs) for this money lent out, after all it is the citizens' monies and it is money they have from goods produced and services delivered.
As a starting point, all the interest on debt created to date around the world should be calculated to see how much of it was charged on money that did not exist and this must be cancelled and the excess recovered; a start towards a globally just financial system.
Financial systems are necessary but let us make them a necessary good.
Usury is a deplorable sinful evil act and should be punished accordingly!
Try to understand or predict what people will do with 90 percent of their money they were paying on interest and fees had this been implemented. Most homes payed for in less than 10 years? What does that do for an economy?
I'm not going to use diluted rationalism to justify how evil self righteous humans pretend they are helping others when cannibalizing on their fellow species.
Sorry I was actually responding as though this was my other post here:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/call-for-a-congressional-bank-that-loans-out-money/
I don't exactly know where the confusion on this is and why there seem to be a couple stragglers here. All the pseudo scientific terminology and false arguments in the world won't do a bit of good in defending this bullshit.
work [wurk] Show IPA noun, adjective, verb, worked or (Archaic except for 29, 31, 34 ) wrought; working. noun
1.exertion or effort directed to produce or accomplish something; labor; toil.
Its called opportunity cost.
If you had that money instead of lending it you could earn x amount of money investing in another project.
You guys don't have a clue of even basic economic and financial issues. Its quite laughable. No wonder those "evil bankers" are laughing at you behind the scenes.
No. That hardly proves that charging interest on money you don't have is working. And you're not a genius because you know what opportunity cost is. Now go away.
How does it not? Simple economic model; money and resources go to the best return. So if you could lend money at 1% (lets say operational costs) or you could charge 4% to finance a factory tell me which one your going to choose?
What I'm saying is that 90 percent of society is dumping 90 percent of their income on usury and fees, 90 percent of businesses and families. Had they had that extra money to save or spend, how do you think that would effect the economy? Simple economics. Saying money and resources go to the best return doesn't explain how you earned interest on money you don't have. Now go away.
first, i don't accept your premise that all interest is usury. Second, 90% of the economy doesn't dump 90% of their income on interest and fee's.
Third, savings is what drives credit see the simple flow of funds diagram you learn in like 10th grade.
Fourth, what do you think interest is? Its a combo of a lot of things, risk, liquidity, opportunity cost, expected inflation etc etc etc.
It is also a return for the lender.
My example plainly shows you don't really have a grasp of economic concepts especially the loanable funds concept.
I suggest instead of telling people to go away you catch up a little on basic economics. Looking stupid does no good for OWS correct?
Where did I say say all interest is usury in present context? You mean pseudo-science economics don't you? You're ranting on and on about the obvious, I know you're proud of yourself and you want to give the perception to whoever reads your blog that your a genius so you can keep perpetuating the kind of bullshit that causes problems in society. If you can logically explain to me how being payed interest above costs, on money you don't have is doing work then do it.
There is no way you can possibly prove that it is. Nobody has thus far. Economist bullshit artists like alan greenspan, have used sophisticated wording that nobody can understand to dupe the public into believing their practices are legitimate work. The average person just becomes intimidated because they don't understand what he and other hucksters are talking about, so they go along with it.
What we need is a good bullshit translator. Now stop with the feeble axiomatic bullshit or get lost.
But he IS right. Oh, and finding investments that earn good returns and minimize risk is as much a full time job as anything else. It takes time, education, and sometimes a cast iron stomach. Also, if you fail, there's no unemployment insurance to cushion the fall.
Not talking about investments, I'm talking about usury on money you printed out of thin air or on money you don't have. You just can't defend or ever prove that interest on money you don't have was "earned" or worked for. Give it up.
Its as much work as sitting home and writing an article or painting
No it's not and I'll prove it. If I loan out money I don't have to someone and they pay me interest every month, I could hypothetically not even have a pulse, I could be in a coma or even dead, and I'd still be getting your interest payments.
Writing an article or painting, you have to exert mental and slight physical energy in order to do it and it requires you to be alive and conscious.
Think harder.
Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9IH-XKQpOI&feature=BFp&list=FLN7cf_w8wZbDe-9Q8BCrhuQ
Like I've already said, before It's in our constitution, I'm not sure why we are still having the same debate 200 years later on this issue. It was straight forward back then, "congress coins the money". Why is there confusion on this?
Yes, repeal the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 and take back the constitutionally mandated obligation of only the U.S. Treasury being able to create debt free money.
Nah, I say just rename the federal reserve to the congressional bank of the U.S. and use the existing building.
the world makes no sense.. haven't you figured that out yet?
When humans pay attention and become conscious of things, it makes sense. Reality will force them to turn their minds on very soon.
yes reality forces people to do strange things
You'll see more philosophy and reason come back in the coming years, because people will be forced by reality to think thoughts.
Banks are under the impression that they need to make more profit than the year before on their customers back. Profits are down, so lets raise fees. We the people of the United States have the power to not to buy, not to do business with them. People of America call for a BOYCOTT on BANK OF AMERICA for starters. Run them out of business one by one. Until there is a more fair dealing with their customers.
Human beings need to collectively destroy the belief that usury is a legitimate business and move on producing real things. There are some bankers that would agree.
If you have such a problem with it than stop giving money to the banks. God i love how you all rip on the banks so much but have a panic attack if you leave your house without the debit card. Who do you think gave the banks all their power?
I haven't been with a bank since 2004.
Yea, I think it was 2000 for me. There are more than a few of us out here. Peace
well you make up 1% of the 99%
Well look who actually owned land. Before you needed to be rich to buy land soothe rich owned more and more of it. Today some countries don't have a mortgage market and it's either loan sharks, debt to wealthy family member or rent. What's worse paying rent or a mortgage?
Yes, give in to being in a mediocre country. Why settle for mediocrity?
Well show me the facts that we are mediocre? If so, change places with someone else on this planet
Not saying we are in present context, I'm saying in your statement you are giving into mediocrity by saying well, at least we have the choice not to pay rent.
Some people would even call a mortgage over 30 years rent. It's really not hard to understand why If you think about it.
Buy a smaller home. Ever consider that?
Like 120,000 for a condo the size of a closet? Lol.
Well you seem entitled to me. As if that condo was beneath you! You are "too good" or "have a chip on your shoulder" that you "deserve" both a 200k private school education and a $500k house with 5br 4bath. Not some"crap" school and $120k condo!
Nope. You will eventually learn that speculation about people is totally pointless. I'm saying the basic necessities of life should not put people on a debt treadmill the rest of their life. Seems like you are just caving into the current system of bullshit beliefs regarding our current economic mode of existence.
Well I've studied history and government and I don't want Ochlocracy or mobile vulgus
Nothing I've said here even remotely points to that. There's nothing wrong with our government design. It's about as good as it gets.
you are just jealous you didn't think of it first
That argument is built upon the premise that I have a criminal mind. Which I don't, neither does 90 percent of society.
lol no, we just want you to stop telling us how "hard working" those billionaires are
The risk and reward horseshit WILL crash and burn. My prediction.
risk and reward will crash and burn when humans are finally able to see into the future.
until then, uncertainty will always be part of our lives and those with the courage to take risks will be well rewarded.
please stop perpetuating the risk and reward horseshit. If you want to accept that then it sure as hell better apply to everyone, not just bankers. If a banker makes 1,000,000 a year and risks what he doesn't have to "earn that money", then a soldier should be payed 50,000,000 a year for risking his life.
Herein lies the proof that it's bullshit.
i am not being facetious, when i say a soldier's life is not worth that much.
after all, these brave men and women sign their life on the dotted line in exchange for the pittance. they alone know how much their life is worth.
unfortunately, a soldier's life is not worth that much.
Like I said, right now humans believe all sorts of stupid shit. What do you think happens when they stop believing it?
The structure of our society has evolved with the rise of industrialism. We no longer remain close to our families and the support that family traditionally provided as we leave for school and jobs. Over time this became the norm, and is what most of us expect to happen. Our expectation is to have a home of our own, and rather than living with family until we save, we pay to support a separate household and use the system that is available: bank loans. I really have no problem with loans that have clear terms and low interest because it is a risk to loan money, and it does require the banks to maintain their own infrastructure. Another part of the problem is the support system between the building industry and government. Low quality materials and workmanship are given a pass as the local government keeps capitulating to more development for kickbacks, or growing their tax base. This is not what happens, though. I'd love to see a financial analyst do a study on development and return, because it seems there is a point where growth becomes a negative rather than a positive. It needs more money to maintain, requires more services, etc. So we have banks too big to fail and social structure to big too support. A balanced system is needed, and regulation is key to maintaing balance. Think of too many trains on too few tracks...
I'm still waiting for an answer. I repeat. How are you taking a risk on something you don't have? If I have 10 dollars and I can loan you 100 at interest, explain logically how I earned or took a risk on money I didn't have?
You asked several questions and I chose to answer the first one. If you don't recall asking it, reread your post before coming back with attitude.
No attitude here, just really, really want an attempt at explaining how you can "earn" interest on money you don't have. Or as the garbage that everyone keeps perpetuating about risk and reward, which I have already exposed as total fucking bullshit.
it's taking risk. taking a risk that you may not pay.
and indeed, many people did not pay.
Taking a risk on money they don't have to begin with? How do you take a risk on something you don't have? And how come the same rules don't apply to police officers or for that matter soldiers in afghanistan? How come the risk and reward bullshit doesn't apply to them? In the word's of the late George Carlin, "It's all bullshit folks, and it's bad for ya."
It's only a matter of time before the risk and reward horseshit crashes and burns.
Fractional reserve banking is a cancer that feeds on real work.
do you have any idea how much work i put into making you believe it will work. look over there , something shinny.
I would respond to this statement like this:
How much "Earned" money could you have made had you not aggravated 90 percent of society with ideas they already know are bullshit, and instead loaned at cost resulting in 90 percent more customers? I'll make it real easy for you to understand.
Would you rather sell 10 @ $1000, or sell 1000 @ $100 each? I'm sorry, I don't see any economist geniuses in modern day society working for the financial sector.
What do you think the world would look like if people knew they weren't being ripped off their whole lives? Would you see more cooperation in paying bills? Or less? How much "earned" income could you make if all those pissed off people cooperated and payed their bills?
Leaving 90 percent of societies income on the table doesn't sound like too good of a business decision to me.
And lastly, if you chose to cut the risk and reward bullshit, and all the other bullshit and lend at cost, do you think that you would have to walk home and be worried about being attacked by angry protesters? Or by being collectively sued? How much money in lawsuits have you wasted that could have been used for productive purposes? After you pay out all the settlements from your scams on society, will you actually make money? Or for that matter, will you even be around anymore?
What are you smoking?
Philosophy and Logic, Want some?
Time to stop blaming everyone and everything for your problems. Take responsibility for you life and do something productive. One word for you: DELUSIONAL
Who is delusional? You're writing as though you know me... Which you don't, and accusing me of putting some sort of blame on someone, which I have never done. Who's the one that is delusional?
OK- Keep up the good work. You are making tremendous progress.
It's not doing work, it's making profits. If you figure out a way to make billions without doing any work then I would classify you as a genius. Those who do the most "work" are usually the lowest paid within a company.
"It's not doing work" Ok, thank you. Using that logic. Bernie Madoff was a genius too. Or was he? He's sitting in a prison cell right now. The public will eventually reject the ideas of the criminal mind. Right now, they believe all kinds of stupid things. We'll get over this just like we got over slavery, and all the other stupid shit people used to believe.
You can take that to the bank...
Yes, you are right on most all points. Banking is one of the oldest professions next to prostitution so I don't see it going away anytime soon. As long as people have "things", someone is going to want to borrow them.