Forum Post: Call for a congressional bank that loans out money at cost and an international minimum wage
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 2 p.m. EST by zapschaft
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This is built upon the premise that you don't work or "earn" interest on money that you don't have.
A call for the formation of a congressional bank that makes incremental loans to all Americans at cost to be payed back by contract of LAW. I'm not sure where the confusion is about this. Says so in our constitution. "congress shall coin the money."
A call for the implementation of an international minimum wage. This should bring at least a few jobs back here. A Chinese or indian worker will make equivelant to 8.00 USD an hour.
Good idea. Can you please explain what the cost of money is ?
The student loans backed by Sallie Mae as well as the mortgages backed by Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac are to be paid by by LAW. In fact, ANY loan is to be paid back according to LAW. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Also, note the Constitution says "coin money and regulate the value thereof." That power was vested to the Governing Board of the Federal Reserve under Title 12 paragraph 3 of federal law. Members of the Board of Governors are appointed by the President subject to approval of Congress.
What will bring jobs back here is a commitment to buy products that say "MADE IN THE USA." People need to ascribe the same SOCIAL benefit to that label as they do to "GREEN" products. See my post at http://occupywallst.org/forum/inconvenient-truths-america/
As for the "People's Bank." take a look at Prosper.Com and Lendingclub.com . I'm a lender on both.
Finally, I found an interesting post by a British commentator at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/8844646/World-power-swings-back-to-America.html / I can't speak for the veracity of his statements, but it IS nice to hear a foreign voice that still has SOME hope for America !
"Good idea. Can you please explain what the cost of money is ?"
The cost to print the paper and any other tracking and administering of that money and the loans made, nothing more. Cost the limit of price, particularly on this means of production that is printed out of thin air. Rico, I'm saying that their is a huge difference between money I earned through work for that I might lend to help a friend, and money not worked for printed out of thin air, or even more, interest on money that someone doesn't have to begin with. This isn't hard to understand. It's nobodies right to print the means of production for an entire society and use it to enslave them for most of their lives. It should be done by congress (public). I think some bankers would agree.
"Also, note the Constitution says "coin money and regulate the value thereof." That power was vested to the Governing Board of the Federal Reserve under Title 12 paragraph 3 of federal law. Members of the Board of Governors are appointed by the President subject to approval of Congress."
Everyone knows that! Problem is even the president is intimidated by the banking industry. Can you imagine what the banking cartel in this country would do If the president suggested that usury and traditional banking was obsolete? Especially in a world with 7 billion people.
I've always said that It will be a banker who calls for the end of banking as we know it. Therein, lies the truth that I don't hate bankers, I actually pity them since they just don't seem to know anything better at this stage in the human experiment.
Small, community banks, not a hard thing.
lool minimum wages don't work and are part of the problem we have now. LOL very bad post -
Weird, everyone I talk to in my life, seems to be making at least min wage. Every business I've been to is required to keep the set of federal rights on the wall. So far I have seen them everywhere.
There are two things that change human behaviour. Law and death. I prefer the first one.
Watch and learn or ignore and stay stupid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLmD9TeUC54
I'm so fucking tired of this feeble shit, he's stating the obvious! I'm talking about a congressional bank in tandem with international min wage. Think about it. Stop repeating what other people are saying or believing.
Minimum wage will only make your buying power go down. If you want to reduce the buying power even further in the world and you want the US to rule the world then fine. When China gets to make laws we have to follow I will come back and ask you how do you feel now about world regulations.
In tandem with congressional bank.
Hmmm... What does usury have to do with life? Let's see, what happens
when people and businesses don't have to spend 90 percent of their income on usury and other related swindles? Where does that money go?
Think really hard about that one.
YOU need to think really hard about where that money CAME from. Better yet, spend a little time thinking about what money actually IS.
The US alone cannot create an international minimum wage. It's nice to think we run the world, but we don't. The US would have to get every country in the world to agree and form a treaty and even then not everyone would follow it.
Ok, let me clear this up. Any company that wants to sell anything from anywhere on U.S. soil has to pay min wage or they can't sell here. How's that?
So you want all the corporations who have overseas workers to move out of the US and refuse to sell anything to us? That will definitely create jobs.
Yep. We are the worlds largest economy for selling those goods. Don't you think that is good enough incentive? I'm sure they will do just fine selling their crap to south korea, I'm sure they will sell even 20 percent of what they sell here. Right?
Well the international minimum wage could be the average of global wages. So $1/hr
Even that would help a little.
We tried that. Its called Fannie Mae and Freddie mac
Not in combination with an international min wage. Get it?
My point was nothing says 8/hr is the right number for international minimum wage. Where I've traveled in this world $1/hour would be welcomed by more people what would be hurt by it
Why is it confusing that other human beings, no matter where they are at should be payed a min wage? Is there work really worth less? Can you prove it? Money allows us to be delusional about price or what something is worth, I really don't see it surviving much longer than the end of this century.
All human life is equal (look up green tara) but that DOES NOT mean all work is created equal. if you think you can design a microchip circuit better than the engineer who has a few million in XYZ Tech or you can mine coal for $23/hour, then you get paid more. Some jobs not worth $8/ hour not drupe to the work but the employer needs to earn more than 8 off the work to even consider hiring
Up the price on the goods to compensate and abolish usury. It computes perfectly, think about it.
Then you (and I) will pay $10/gal for gas and milk and $5k for a computer.....
Ok, show me your math how gas will be $10 a gallon and pc's will cost 5k because everyone has to make at least 8 bucks an hour. Really strange that food in a restaurant, or stuff you buy at retail doesn't cost more because they all have to pay min wage. You're pretending that $8 dollars an hour is a lot of money. You could hire 5 workers and pay them equivelant of an average american's salary. Think about how much product 5 workers can make, then tell me the world will end from high prices.
Tara, this is where our paths diverge. We don't have cars anymore and now like the idea of taxing gas. We don't pay federal taxes because we don't work and we get our iPads off craigslist after they are stolen at the airport. This is your economy, be proud.
Why would you want a Chinese job? You don't even want a Mexican's or you would be picking blueberries in NC. Please stop begging for jobs, it's demeaning and unnecessary. Tax Wall St and live happily ever after. There are no more jobs! It's all computers and robots and Mexicans now.
Why would you want to work? Good god man, this is the kind of stuff that the republicans use to attack you folks. Stop giving them ammo!
I suppose, but I generally try not to think of Republicans. Still, it seems like a bad idea to want to be slaves. Entrepreneurs I can see. Being a student is cool. It seems much more logical to tax the money where it is, on Wall St. Begging for change so you can be used AND pay taxes makes no sense.
While there is no international structure by which to create or enforce a requirement for an international minimum wage, a nation could take a moral stand and prohibit trade with companies that do not provide benefits or pay a living wage or have branches that don't. However, it does not even happen within a supposedly forward thinking 1st world country as applicable to our own citizens.
Don't need international cooperation. All business selling on U.S. Soil have to pay min wage wherever they make the product. Any company selling on U.S. soil has federal mandate to pay min wage to workers wherever they are.
This is not true. Food servers and farm workers are two groups outside this system within the US that come to mind offhand.
What's not true about federal law?
http://www.dol.gov/whd/minimumwage.htm
Reread the title of your post. You said "international minimum wage" and I pointed out two groups in the US who do not get minimum wage, so how can you expect international cooperation to implementing an international wage? The reason any setting of a wage minimum works is because there are consequences for not paying them (except the groups that have been legally excluded) but there is no international group to reinforce or institute consequence in regard to an international wage.
Ok, let me clear this up. Any company that wants to sell anything from anywhere on U.S. soil has to pay min wage or they can't sell. How's that?
I believe I discussed that in my first post, but let me restate it for you. The US does allow workers in the US to work for less than minimum wage, even as they set a minimum wage. We also used to use tariffs to equalize the international imbalance, but that too is being erased through favored nation status and free trade agreements. The government, obviously, supports the non person entity over the actual living people, so like I said, it would be the moral thing, but there is no evidence that our government would ever do this, and ample evidence that they would actively oppose it. The problem lies in the root cause, of which this is only one symptom. The root of the problem is corporate personhood, and influence of individuals in government.
but there is no evidence that our government would ever do this
Elect someone that will.
I have but one vote. My vote doesn't even count in my district, as I am in a small minority. Those people in the majority would reject your idea completely as they want less regulation, rather than more. While I agree on the moral principle, and agree it would benefit the American and foreign worker, I do not see a possibility of changing this until the big money influence is out politics.
Or until our cute little experiment over here collapses.
It would probably hurt the same workers you are trying to help.
If you are the owner of a Chinese factory and you are paying your workers 25 cents an hour and now you are being told you need to pay them $8 an hour will you do it? No, their asses are going to get laid off.
Yes they'll do it. They have to sell to the U.S., It's their biggest market. They can accept paying it or selling very small volume to other countries and make even less.
Sometimes you can make more money by selling less volume if you can sell that less volume at a significantly higher profit margin.
Aside from the supply side of it, what do you think will happen to the cost of those goods once they make it to the US? They will skyrocket so that $8 minimum wage in the US is going to be worthless.
Aside from the supply side of it, what do you think will happen to the cost of those goods once they make it to the US? Yes, the obvious.
Why is that a bad thing? Why is it a bad thing to have the cost of things of want, like tv's, gizmos, and shoes go up while at the same time people are being employed? If you're like james above, then maybe you don't think you need to work building things... Or even have a job. If that's the case the GOP will, and rightfully should, stomp all over you.
I have a well paying job that can never be outsourced to China so I am indeed very fortunate.
But what about all those here in the US living in poverty that depend on those $5 shirts and $30 sneakers made in China. What are they going to do when they cost several fold more than they do now?
Honestly though, if that law was passed, Chinese companies would just stop selling to the US. There are a lot of other developing economies out there that would create some demand for their goods. Yes they would be hurt by it, but the differences in profit margin would be so great, they would likely be better off selling less volume than giving their employees a 3000% raise.
Goodwill. It will save billions on landfill costs every year.
Fantasy. Who's going to oversee this bank Barney Frank LOL! Just like Fannie & Freddie ?
Strange. Who oversees min wage laws right now? People seem to be following them.
There are two things that change human behaviour. Law and death. I prefer the first one.
what does a central bank have to do with minimum wage? You can have your minimum wage and the fewer jobs that go with it.
Hmmm... What does usury have to do with life? Let's see, what happens when people and businesses don't have to spend 90 percent of their income on usury and other related swindles? Where does that money go?
Think really hard about that one.
your right - life is one big swindle lol! I dont know how I manage.
Not necessarily, Was just making a point. Hypothetical example:
If you have a mortgage @200,000 for a home over 30 years and pay 7 percent ai, you're paying 14k of your salary on usury. Lets say we loan out that same amount at cost eg. the cost of organizing and administering that loan, tellers, legal consultants, equipment, etc. and they only pay 1 percent = 2k annually on that operational cost. Where does that extra 12k get spent?, and how fast would you be able to pay off your home?
Get it?
There would be plenty other "real" things to sell, cars, boats, etc. for the bankers when everyone has that much more money to save.
Right, and what happens when people don't pay me back?
I'm a long-time lender at Prosper.com, and the rates I used to charge back when I could bid my own rate would be considered by most to be usury, on the order of 35%. MOST borrowers, however, never paid me back. In the end, my return from 2008 to 2010 was 7% on $10,000 lent. I spent at LEAST 40 hours screening loans and if pay my sole employee (me) minimum wage of around $7 an hour, I made only 4.2% in exchange for risking all $10,000 as an investor. Would YOU lend $10,000 to someone you don't know in the hopes you'll either LOSE your money or make $420 two years later ?
By the way, you ALSO have a big gap in your understanding of how banks work and what services they provide in an economy. When you "borrow" money, you're very specifically borrowing money that is NOT being spent. Banks serve to move money from where there is excess to where it is needed.
Yes, exactly. Now I'll ask this again. Is usury incentive or disincentive to borrow money? Do people cooperate more or less when they know they aren't being ripped off? Think about it. In my experience running a small business, when you are fair about pricing your work and only charge for that work, 999 out of 1000 customers pay the bill immediately and call you back. Subconsciously, people have a real good feel of fairness in price. The problem is when they think that price is too high, or they are being ripped off, they become intimidated and just pay it.
There's nothing tricky or complicated about the inputs and outputs of money and how it flows around. The confusion here is that the public has been duped by techno-economist babble from the Greenspan, Friedman bunch that we actually need usury in our economic structure, which we don't. And that they are intimidated and confused by it, so they just cave into believing whatever bullshit comes out of the economist's mouth. Yes, it's too bad most smart people aren't ethical people.
I would bet my toyota prius that when 99 percent of people are allowed to pay off their homes without being put on a 30 year usury and fee treadmill, it can do incredible things for the world.
yea - ok - no interest loans - good luck.
So perhaps you would consider our group's proposal of an alternative online direct democracy of government and business at http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo , hit the facebook “like” button if agreed, and then join our group's 20 members committed to that plan at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
Step 6: Finally, each "new" Business must have a Safe & Sound Profit Motive"
What you're basically talking about here is already happening. Two more credit unions just popped up around where I live. I have been a member for most of my life. I'd personally like to start off with something that reflects more of the idea that money does not do work, people do work. The federal reserve system should be just slightly modified to make loans to individuals instead of banks.
These new public owned banks you refer to would become rotten and full of corruption in no time as long as they coexist with existing garbage. We really need a federal law to abolish usury or loans above costs. The number one thing that is killing business growth and entrepenuerialship is interest and fees on business loans, student loans and home loans. It puts people on a slave treadmill for most of their life and nothing can grow to its true potential.
What you're basically talking about here is already happening. Two more credit unions just popped up around where I live. I have been a member for most of my life.
Credit Unions are great and exactly in-line with our proposal, but they need to be (1) greatly expanded in market share (for they are only a small number now) and (2) re-organized into 48 Business Investment Groups as described in our plan so that we can all become Business Owner-Voters too; that is, according to our Levels of Occupational & Generational Experience as democratically agreed-upon by in our 1 of 48 Business Investment Groups as proposed.
Why? Because such an objective determination of people's contribution to their Business's Profit by Occupation & Generation within a Business Investment Group will end the very corruption you spoke of, for it would be based upon democratically-agreed math, not 1% emotion, agreed?
I'd personally like to start off with something that reflects more of the idea that money does not do work, people do work.
This sounds like an Resource-Based Economy which I fully support, but we need to put the horse (financing as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters) in front of the cart (an RBE City Design of 65,000 per The VenusProject,com, etc); that is, in a non-disruptive phased RBE approach in order to have the financing to build such as money-less system, which I call an RBE City of 65,000 financed by a Home Town Bank of 65,000 first, agreed?
These new public owned banks you refer to would become rotten and full of corruption in no time as long as they coexist with existing garbage. We really need a federal law to abolish usury or loans above costs.
Agreed, but you must control a thing as Bank Owner-Voters (or as reorganized and new Credit Unions as described above) in order to delete a thing, such as "usury or loans above costs". In fact, in response to the confusion, I'll just change our proposal to say Credit Unions (re-organized) and jettison the word Bank, agreed?
The number one thing that is killing business growth and entrepenuerialship is interest and fees on business loans, student loans and home loans. It puts people on a slave treadmill for most of their life and nothing can grow to its true potential.
Absolutely agreed, for 40% of all Corporate Profits are Bank Profits and this creates "a {HUGE} slave treadmill for most of ... life and nothing can grow to its true potential" as Business Owner-Voters.
Consequently, our proposal is small-business-bottom-up approach, not a big-business-top-down approach, so I hope you'll join our group at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems so that we can further empower ourselves as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, for there are always long-term alternatives to short-term problems, if we know where to find each other, agreed?
"Why? Because such an objective determination of people's contribution to their Business's Profit by Occupation & Generation within a Business Investment Group will end the very corruption you spoke of, for it would be based upon democratically-agreed math, not 1% emotion, agreed?"
Just by leaving profit in money as an end in itself, this will promote other forms of stupid money for nothing scams as you see now. This will eventually lead to the same shit we have now.
Do we want to build a society of smart people that are trying to figure out how to make millions as financiers or a society full of smart people trying to make millions trying to figure out how to store 50kwh of energy in a device the size of a car trunk?
YES. They will actually have to work for it!
Again, this sounds like an Resource-Based Economy (with no money in it) which I fully support, but we need to put the horse (financing as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters) in front of the cart (an RBE City Design of 65,000 per The VenusProject,com, etc); that is, in a non-disruptive phased RBE approach in order to have the financing to build such as money-less system, which I call an RBE City of 65,000 financed by a Home Town Bank of 65,000 first.
Why? Because you must FIRST control the Banks (or Credit Unions) as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, before you can delete the banks (including the elimination of money) using an RBE City Design like TheVenusProject.com, agreed?
It really doesn't have to be a RBE. Only the lending of money, is off limits to anyone but congress. It has long been written in the constitution, that congress is to coin the money. It gets people away from trying to make money from nothing. They will instead likely use their time trying to make money by actually working for it.
YES. They will have to use their minds!
Oh btw, contrary to popular belief, it doesn't take anymore than an 8th grade education to come up with a pyramid scheme, it only takes the heartlessness and gull to actually go through with it.
Only the lending of money, is off limits to anyone but congress.
But this eliminates the very "entrepenuerialship" you spoke of.
For example, there is an immediately effective and efficient solution to the problem of global warming, and the “greedy” 1% system which is creating it, as follows: If the 99%, as Home Town Banks of 65,000 Members, divide themselves into 16,384 Vehicle Investment Groups of 4 Members, with each group of 4 Members purchasing a hybrid-diesel-hummer-limo Cab which they then put into their Town Cab Fleet of 16,384 Lino Cabs, then this would reduce their Individual Transportation Costs by 75% (Cost of 1 Cab / 4 Members = 75% less cost per member), and yet they would have a Luxury Limo Cab available to them, out of 16,000 cabs in their Town, five minutes after calling for one, but not necessarily the specific luxury cab in which they own 25%. And most importantly, let's not forget the lessening of Mother Nature's burden from having 75% fewer cars with no traffic jams, and thus 75% less CO2. Furthermore, the list of simple productivity improvements like this one -- which the 99% want but the 1% don't want -- are endless, beginning with our 48 Tactical Investment Procedures at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems. But as their FIRST of Forty-Eight Tactical Investment Procedures, the 99% must control the banks as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, before they can control their Town (and National) design in this manner which is much less costly (in terms of the worker hours needed to maintain it by 75% too) and yet have 75% greater luxury (such as a limo cab) at the same time. Consequently, to decentralize Banking & Business Ownership into a Online Direct Democracy by Occupation & Generation is to lower cost 75% is to lower price 75% is to lower work 75% is to increase luxury by 75% is to decrease Mother Nature's burden by 75%. And that's just 1 of 48 Tactical Investment Procedures in our group at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems starting from where the 99% are now, and then you can take the 99% even deeper technically (or mathematically) into an even better resource-based system, such as that cited at TheVenusProject.com and VictoryCities.com. So you see, once you get people thinking technically (or mathematically) like this, without arguing for argument's sake, in a way they can understand today, THEN you can move them to even high levels of optimally effective and efficient Town (& National) designs where the word "greed" and the phrase "lack of moral fiber" doesn't even exist, such as a resource-based economy, but which the people are not yet technically (or mathematically) prepared to understand at this time, but that can change as you improve their technical (or mathematical) capabilities in ways they do understand first, such as the example above, agreed?
I'm really curious to know why you think abolishing usury has to mean a RBE? Can't we abolish usury above costs and still have a free market? Doesn't anyone have an imagination?
But this eliminates the very "entrepenuerialship" you spoke of.
Like I said, my idea is built upon the premise that charging interest on money you printed out of thin air or on money you don't have is not work, therefore not Entrepenuerialship.
Btw, I am a huge fan of the venus project and of jocque fresco.
Okay, then we are agreed -- charging interest on money you printed out of thin air or on money you don't have is not work -- but in order to eliminate that excess credit money you have to CONTROL it as Bank Owner-Voters FIRST. Otherwise, with all due respect to you personally, you're living in a dream world! So, with that said, I've spent enough of my valuable time explaining Natural Social Law to you, so you'll just have wallow in your wholly ineffective and inefficient pursuit of liberty and justice for all while our group LOGICALLY does otherwise.
Nah, I just don't think their is anything wrong with our government design. In fact, I think its still quite brilliant. True, on a small scale movement, we don't have power to change the existing structure, but if enough people join and elect people that would be willing to abolish usury, then it would change. Just like that. It's not fantasy either. When people stopped believing in slavery, we changed it.
"but in order to eliminate that excess credit money you have to CONTROL it as Bank Owner-Voters FIRST"
You didn't understand what I said before. Your analyzing this as though the banks are the problem. They are not, only the ideas they employ, namely usury, people are the problem, I don't care what you call it, bank-owner voting people or not. Bank of America is owned by shareholders which call themselves bank owner voters too! Your not solving the problem, by having just the ownership changing hands.
You get rid of the problem by smashing the belief system that money as an end in itself is not work. After you do this, the basic things that the 7 billion people on this planet need become affordable, like a home, and food, especially a home, and almost all of them will be glad to pay off their loan when they aren't being ripped off.
Usury is not an incentive to borrow money. Think about it.
It will only be a matter of time before your bank-owner-voters will be coming up with new financial instruments just like the existing ones have, like cds squared, and the like to scam the public because the public still believes that interest on money without work is kosher. Trust me, humans get bored and come up with all kinds of things to cause problems. Keep humans away from money for nothing schemes, and you will have a much more civilized, intelligent, less savage, human population. The things of need that make life at least tolerable can no longer be subject to the rules of usury in a world with 7 billion people. It isn't going to work.
I would even say that money backed by nothing, that measures nothing is, or will be obsolete when people collectively start really thinking deep about what is really wrong with our economic mode of existence.
Look, you're just too narrow-minded in your approach to solving problems to actually get the socioeconomic support needed among the people to solve those problems. Take off of your tunnel-vision, and we can talk, for there's more to life than "usury", such as RBE, big picture thinking; otherwise...
"Look, you're just too narrow-minded in your approach to solving problems to actually get the socioeconomic support needed among the people to solve those problems."
Ok, explain to me LOGICALLY, how moving loads of money from one group of humans to another group of humans is going to solve the problem? Are the humans that this money will be moved over to special? Are they even human? Maybe extraterestrial? Incorruptable?