Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Authorities fail to charge or otherwise indict Darrin Wilson for murder or for any other lesser charge.

Posted 3 years ago on Nov. 24, 2014, 11:26 p.m. EST by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

But - HEY

Not to worry - as - while making the announcement the Prosecutor reassured citizens that they still had protection of the stand your ground laws.

Hmmmmmmm - I really wonder if that was something that he wanted to bring up?

I mean - is that supposed to mean that if any citizen is in fear for their life - that they can do a preemptive shooting of their own?

If so - was that in reference to the fact of the average citizen being in fear for their life from the likes of Darren Wilson - and should feel justified by law to shoot him on sight?

Cause if one wants to look at this whole situation without the blinders being on - there is a large portion of the population in Ferguson as well as in other stand your ground law states that have a legitimate right to fear for their lives as concerns police in their neighborhoods.

Just Sayin.

205 Comments

205 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 5 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 3 years ago

So WTF is a Grand Jury for ?!

To actually acquit or convict ..

Or look for something more ?!!

To really enable due process -

Or, to further fuel the furore ?!!!

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

[-] 6 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 3 years ago

''Ferguson : The Safety of Citizens is Lost with The Unaccountability of Police'',

by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40327.htm


Events in Ferguson unfolded as most aware Americans thought they would. A white prosecutor guided a grand jury to the decision that the white policeman who shot and killed a young black male had just cause and committed no crime.

The black majority but politically powerless community in Ferguson consists of Americans who are constantly harassed and abused by police. The black community responded predictably to the exoneration of the white policeman. The results were riots, looting, and the destruction of property.

This response hardened the whites in their view that black people are criminally inclined and a threat to the safety of the lives and properties of whites.

The issue has been cast as white-black racism.

Actually, the situation is far more serious than racism.

I can remember times when police in America were reliable. They had themselves under control and saw their role as helpful to citizens and investigators of crimes. They took care not to bring charges against innocent people and to kill citizens without cause. Police would put their lives on line in order to avoid making a mistake in the use of their power.

Those times are gone forever. The police have been militarized, especially after 9/11, but even before. Police are taught to regard the public, especially any suspect or traffic offender as a potential threat to the police. The new rule taught to police is to apply violence to the suspect or offender in order to protect the police officer, and to question suspects only after they are safely secured, it they are still alive after being beaten, tasered, or shot.

This police training, together with police incompetence, which is difficult to understand in these days of GPS addresses, results in massive assaults in the homes of totally innocent American civilians who have done no wrong, but, despite their innocence, lose family members and pets to gratuitous police violence.

Taxpayers pay the police to investigate crimes, not to attack members of the public. But the police have been taught to see their role as protecting themselves from a criminally- inclined public, black and white.

Police reside in the executive branch, and since 9/11 the executive branch has succeeded in removing itself from accountability to law and to the Constitution. This unaccountability has filtered down to the militarized police who can now murder with impunity as their numerous murders of citizens are given a pass.



*e tenebris, lux* ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dr. Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Economic Policy and associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He was columnist for Business Week, Scripps Howard News Service, and Creators Syndicate. He has had many university appointments. His internet columns have attracted a worldwide following. Roberts' latest books are 'The Failure of Laissez Faire Capitalism and Economic Dissolution of the West' and 'How America Was Lost'. & the article was copied verbatim under 'Fair Use' from the ICH link above + fyi : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_juries_in_the_United_States ]

[-] 0 points by Narley (272) 3 years ago

The article is wrong in one respect. The statements about how good cops used to be compared to cops today is incorrect. Prior to about 1960 the law was what the cops said it was. They didn't enforce the law, they were the law. Sixty years ago most police departments were corrupt and cops could do anything they wanted without having to worry about it. It wasn't unusual for cops to beat people up and leave them laying in on the street. A lot of cops took bribes and graft. In most small towns the Sheriff effectively ran the town.

Today cops are educated and highly trained. They know the law and understand their limits. They know every move they make will be examined. Cops today are far more professional than say 60 years ago.

So, I see cops as the good guys. Who are you going to call if you are robbed, beaten or raped? Would you rather have a local militia?

[-] 5 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 3 years ago

Though I don't doubt that some cops sincerely 'protect and serve', I do question ''who'' they do this for, in the main AND who 'protects' them !!! Of course we look to call the PD - IF we are ''r, b or r'' but that does NOT give them carte blanche !! I think the PD ought to be better paid, better trained & more accountable & that they should be screened for hate-filled, right-wing, wannabe-military types ! Happy 'TG'. Also fyi :

fiat lux ; fiat justitia ; fiat pax ...

[-] 4 points by larryathome (161) from Red Bank, NJ 3 years ago

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that this DA has been working with cops for years and years yo send people to prison. He depends on that relationship between the cops and his office for success at his job. That is why his office should have been required by law for recusal in this case. You cannot expect bedfellows to hurt one of their own team, even if it is the right thing to do. That is why our justice system needs a new process of impartiality where officer Wilson would be tried by federal or state prosecutors. Remember, you can indict a ham sandwich if you want. This prosecutor had no desire for the indictment, so now the feds should step in and try to find out the truth out in the open for all the public to know, I also would look to move far away from that city if I were Wilson, because his face is well known among the people of Fergueson. He has a real chance of retribution from someone who may be crazed, deranged and with nothing to lose. Yes, he has to live with himself too which is a punishment that carries much pain for most human beings. Personally, I hope he lives long enough to regret his actions every day for the rest of his life and that he could live to feel the pain that the Brown family feels every day.

[-] 3 points by larryathome (161) from Red Bank, NJ 3 years ago

Already signed, but petitions have proven to be less effective. We need to take back to the streets like we did when Occupy got started.

[-] 4 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

I agree. We have to start being more like activists, and continue to reach-out. More people have begun to awaken, and it's not just young people who can't find a good job to pay off their education, it's their parents and maybe their grandparents who are in danger of losing their home for having remortgaged them to pay for their children's education.

[-] 3 points by larryathome (161) from Red Bank, NJ 3 years ago

sadly enough, it is only people who are immediately impacted. The vast majority of our 300+ million people pay far less attention to events than they should, so only isolated pockets of people turn out to protest. Our country is due for a Dr. King sized rally, but is too dumbed down by technology to care.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

I agree that personal hardship brought on by a political and economic system that does not give a sh.t about its people would probably be one of the main impetuses for a person becoming actively involved. But we also have to consider loved ones who get screwed too, and of course a combination of that and people, like us reaching out in the hopes of awakening others so that they understand before their plight becomes a tragedy.

Then I think people need to see that their predicament is only a part of a far bigger problem, namely how our government puts the interests of corporations and banks far ahead of ours. Our problems differ..., but the cause is most likely the same.

And although, I am no expert on revolutions, it is my understanding that only a very small per centage of people need to be active to affect systemic change

Note: I know Margaret Flowers of Popular Resistance has talked about the latter, maybe on her web site.

[-] 7 points by larryathome (161) from Red Bank, NJ 3 years ago

You have a great point with the reference to the corporations and how they successfully mask their influence by using the political funding apparatus. People see ads on tv during the election cycle, but don't care to realize that the Koch brothers are behind much of the funding, but those funding Democrats also have corporate interests at heart. Instead of passing medicare for all, we got Obamacare, sweetheart for the insurance industry. How many insurance lobbyists were in there for the drafting of that bill? If the people were in there, we would be having single payer universal coverage and the worthless health insurance industry would no longer be bleeding us dry.

[-] 5 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

I agree with you too, and I'm sure that people like Margaret Flowers, Jill Stein and the other members of Physicians For A National Healthcare Program, (PNHP) woud also agree with us. (Note: This affinity group group is not only made up of physicians, but raher both people in and out of the med.. field as well)

Many of the people who are in Strike Debt are also members of PNHP, and they are activists, one of the people who I know personally has been arrested for her activism. There is a good 25-30 minute interview on Bill Moyers and Co. with Ms Stein and Ms Flowers called Path To Positive Resistance. It is well-worth seeing when you get the chance. In any event, I have nothing but admiration for these ladies, who between them have been arrested 13 times for civil disobedience.

People today are starting to wake up, and hopefully they will also realize the sacrifices that were made by past generations to correct real injustices and advance systemic change over a corrupt plutocracy.....were what made the difference. It's our turn now...

[-] 4 points by larryathome (161) from Red Bank, NJ 3 years ago

The bottom line is democracy does not exist in America yet society claims it to exist. If you can pay to play, well, life will be all peaches, but if you don't have or can't afford your own personal lobbyist, then you are correct in feeling that the game is rigged.+

[-] 4 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

You're right in implying that, people who get lucrative no-bid contracts are part of a corrupt quid pro quo system that has little concern for the best solutions for the many problems our country faces.

One of the best examples of this system, "pay to play" is the Broken Windows policy of justice, which fits right in with the PIC. That is where you incarcerate victims, for relatively minor crimes.... often victimless crimes...for FAR longer periods of time. Simultaneously..... you ignore people who call for ACCOUNTABILITY & methods that work far better and that are MUCH LESS... expensive. Simultaneously again, people who have committed huge crimes that have caused an immeasurable amount of misery are ignored, often lauded for their incredible wealth & even have Christmas bonuses due soon.

You bet the fu..ing game is "rigged."

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Already signed

Good - I hope you also sent it on to others as well.

Now then...............

How do you get people motivated to get back into the streets (other than by police murdering an UN-Armed Teenager) ?

The People need to make demands of their government to perform for the benefit of the whole population - and the government has to respond or not respond to the peoples directives - in ignoring the people - the government feeds the awareness of the population that this government for the wealthy and the corp(se)oRAT needs ending.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. And in this case that is not quite accurate. Because if good people do nothing = opt out - well then - in leaving a vacuum to be filled the actively evil get a stronger hold on government and things go into the shitter for all very fast. And at the current speed that bad things are happening to the environment and to the economy for the majority - well - lets say the consequences will be hard to survive - harder to survive the longer the good do nothing (opt out).

So - the more that the population demands action and the more that the government ignores the population - the stronger organizing will become to end this current government.

Basic cause and effect.

[-] 4 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

I think what causes people to become criminals is a combination of factors. A loss of family structure due to economic hardship contributes to that...it breaks families apart. Stress is a killer. Also parents can't be around as much...if they are working all the time ( two jobs to make rent 'how uniquely American'). I look at the inner city like Never Never land or Lord of the Flies. Kids are living on their own too young. But perhaps the largest factor is a lack of hope for anything. A great big fuck it life sucks. While there are all kinds of programs available to minority youth and especially college...they either don't have the self esteem...or slipped so far behind in education skipping school that they can't possibly catch up. Where there were once union factory jobs that offered an alternative chance...They turn to crime so they don't have to flip burgers because when they do that they can only see themselves doing it forever as some asswad bully manager gets off on belittling them day after day and it doesn't come close to making ends meet. I imagine it is really available in minority communities - crime - there it is your friends are doing it, your family might be doing it, it is easier to get away with it there because there is so much of it going on. People lose sight think it is no big deal. Perception shifts.

In comes someone like me. My economics aren't great, i come from a broken home...I have never so much as stolen a candy bar...I'm proud of this fact. I agree with Occupy...I agree with questioning authority. I don't agree that just being poor causes people to become criminals (thank you banksters). I get angry because I don't want to live near crime and children ( or people still behaving like children) running amok. In comes the police. We have rules in society that we aren't going to undo simply because society wouldn't function that way. ( unless you are a monopoly rules don't apply apparently)

I get the anger and frustration. But this isn't the way to change it. The country is watching ...they see a neverland where kids are attacking police...where crime is rampant...where gangs rule like the wild wild west. We think you need the police. think Michael Brown was a dumb kid that attacked a cop. In that situation...this kid was big and looked and behaved like a violent man. The cop's wife ( and maybe kids are home waiting for him). He loses control of the situation. What does he do? Say please stop punching me sir? Cops have guns we all know this...so it's not a smart idea to attack them. That's why we have the known phrase suicide by cop. The problem is in the inner city criminals have guns too...cops never know who could pull one out and shoot at them. Or who is going to come running at them from another direction while they are wrestling with their friend. Too many criminals in the inner city don't face real consequences for their behavior. They get probation. They aren't afraid to keep committing crimes. They see cops as the enemy. Standing in their way of doing whatever they want. People with personality disorders do whatever they want...they shift their perception of reality to match their behavior instead of the other way around (like banksters).

How do we change this situation? Would it be better to fight the system , than to blame police for trying to protect the rest of us from criminals? The world is watching Ferguson ...how much better would it be to light candles in the street, for a better fairer economic system, one that brings hope...(Mr do nothing President as you partner with banks and monopolies).... than to tear apart the city for what many people view as defending someone adult enough to make his own choice to risk his life for petty theft, and attacking a cop to avoid consequences, not afraid enough or caring enough that cops carry guns to protect themselves ( and the rest of the community from crime). Let this be a wake- up call...not for turning the cheek on crime (as what happens on Wall Streetnor to behave as they do breaking laws and trampling others)...but to change the circumstances in the inner city to one of downslide and hopelessness, and 'Falling Down' (yes you are the bad guy now) crime...to one of hope. Occupy Wallstreet.

[+] -5 points by WSmith (2696) from Cornelius, OR 3 years ago

Hey idiot, paragraphs, points, relevance, why, what, who, when?

[Removed]

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 3 points by Shule (2638) 3 years ago

Check out the headliner on http://america.aljazeera.com/ (before it goes down.) Under a picture of flaming Ferguson, the head liner says " Analysis: Think riots have never caused change in America? Think again."

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

From the article:

“The way in which we have made progress in this country is when we have seen peaceful, nonviolent demonstrations that have led to the change that has been the most long-lasting and the most pervasive,” he said ( Holder’s remarks).


Huh

How old is Holder?

I mean - does he know nothing of the civil rights movement?

Like - that - was not all love hugs and kisses.

[-] 3 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

So a grand jury of white and black people couldn't find enough evidence to charge this officer, you think it is incorrect?

[-] 2 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 3 years ago

multiple witness testified to the shooting

of course, a trail must happen

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

So a grand jury of 9 white and 3 black people - with no released record of any voting on any charges when it only takes 4 against to nullify.

So a grand jury of 9 white and 3 black people - who were presented every scrap of evidence from every source (credible and non) and were presented a case to find guilty or not guilty - instead of instructed to find whether or not there was enough evidence to warrant a trial (therein to weigh the case for a finding of guilt or not).

Do you think it was all proper and above board?

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Yes as much as any grand jury is fair. This one should be no different.

The real question is if the black people of the area are so fed up why don't they change the city council and the police force? They have the ability to do it. Why also is the area so crime infested?

[-] 1 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 3 years ago

questions must still be answered

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Is it? So crime infested I mean.

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Violent crime 150% of the national average and property crime at least twice the national average. This also doesn't take into account drug activity.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

"Gee what a shock. More posing by the conservative spinoza34."

The super people who got up early to protest on this cold Black Friday morning, at the Bergen Walmart would probably disagree with your assessment of me. Were you there too.... on the first or second bus, or did you drive there? Let me know....maybe we could grab lunch in NY when we get there.

If you did miss it though, YOU should be able to catch it on RT, or NBC, NY...as I noticed their people there.

Imagine that, talk about convenience, YOU can comfortably trash Occupy, and their supporters from your warm home, and almost simultaneously watch the protesters in Bergen on line, or on the tube.*! You already know that, I'm sure.

[+] -4 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

You do not support OWS. You're trying to alter it's message in order to offset it's influence on non-conservatives.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 2 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

YOU, Still... kinda remind me of that SNL character, Debby Downer, you know the person who was super pessimistic, and disliked life in general. The only difference that I can see is that she didn't seem to want other people to be pessimistic and miserable... too.

Did YOU & Brent break bread together, on TG? IF so, I bet that you had a lot to talk about.

[-] -3 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I'm not pessimistic. I'm realistic. My predictions have been proven well over 90% accurate for 9 years running.

Those tax breaks for the richest 1% and their corporate golden geese are in the works as we type thanks to the inaction millions of center-left voters who sat the mid-term elections out.

COUNT ON IT.

The Greater Depression is on it's way also thanks to the richest 1% and all of their IDIOT fans.

COUNT ON IT.

I don't need hope for a better future. I have none. I'm working simply to help slow the decline.

Take that you fiscal conservative posing as a disgruntled liberal and using multiple IDs in order to mark up your poser comments. Say that reminds me.

How do you feel about raising taxes on the rich and their corporate golden geese? Should we pressure our sold-out leaders to do so or should we just 'not vote' and hope for the best as conservatives run the board?

A one. A two. A one two three.

[-] 3 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

NO, you are NOT "realistic", YOU are one of the most "pessimistic" people that I know.

ANYONE who admits, that he doesn't have a future, and then advocates for us voting for one of the two corrupt parties who got us here, or for "the lesser evil" is in NO way realistic. And by the way, YOU will not put me on the defensive with any of your stupid assertions, or questions.

I don't expect YOU to answer my questions either. They are rhetorical. I just ask them in a deadpan style to make either you, or your silly position look kinda dense-like...;-). I do feel bad, tho..., 'cause it's like shooting fish in a barrel...lol.

And I forgot, did you get the chance to look at, or put up any links here on the protests in the last week. Ooops, I forgot again, that does not behoove YOU to show any victories by the people. 'Cause I know.. your job is to try and pursuade Occupiers, or anyone who wants systemic change... that the struggle is over....and it is time to vote for Democrats now ... so that we can beg or eke out anything we can, as we continue to slide further into an abyss.

Showing our successes, or understanding "altruistic" determined people on a deeper level would not fit your raison d' etre, which BTW also has become less insidious (to us), but tons more stupid and obvious to almost all of us!!!... NOW, that's positive!!.. Don't YOU think?...lol ...(note, NO answer expected, it's rhetorical...lol)

[-] 4 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

yea sure - he is realistic and can predict the future - didn't you know. i am hoping he will tell us what is coming down the road in the next 6 months or so- then maybe another post to tell us about the longer time frame.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

You might want to space out the use of your multiple IDs, all of which were just created this mid-term election year of 2014, stop marking up and down so predictably and start posting some differing views and attacks if you hope to convince any legitimate users here with this 'disgruntled liberal' charade.

I'll be calling you out on a regular basis regardless. In fact, sometime within the next few days, I'm going to explain your tactics in my profile and start making reference each time I respond to your multiple ID comments.

You should also change your name to conservative Republican campaigner Baron Von Porta Potty of Chicago Craigslist community politics forum. You type just like him and use the same psychological tactics, one of which is to include snippets in French hoping to intimidate those of us who haven't wasted our time on a language we have absolutely no interest in or use for. You even showed up here right around the time I started debating him.

Baron Von Porta Potty is that you?

Http://MyCriticsInChicagoAreCowards.Blogspot.com

Update: I've been watching. Two more markdowns within 90 seconds as well as two more markups for your own poser comment.

You really are stupid. Just as obvious as can be.

https://occupywallst.org/forum/as-if-it-werent-already-obvious-my-critics-are-usi/

[-] 3 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

YOU will be "calling.. [me] out on a regular basis.."?? Ooh, that sounds intimidating, and a bit deranged! Maybe, YOU are just tired and frustrated?

Lot's of people have been marked down heavily as far as I can see. Feel free to do that to me any time! They can do away with the whole point system for all I care.

There are also a few more reasons to consider as to why YOU are so unpopular. The first, and most probable reason is because of YOU not wanting systemic change, and your Debby Downer-like attitude is not helpful.

Then, there is your defeatism, another one of your "pessimistic" traits, which I honestly do not see in Occupy, especially in the young people. I think that they most likely think that it is foolish for YOU to want us all to vote for more of those people who have betrayed us time and again.

Have you ever seen that quote, "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you."....Joseph Heller

That seems very applicable here. Don't YOU think?!...rhetorical question, no need to answer...lol.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I refuse to be among the millions proven wrong as their hopes for the future are crushed again and again.

I'm happy for gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Real progress has been made there. Good for them.

Everything else, as expected has only gotten worse.

I'm not in this for hope. I'm only trying to help slow the decline.

The Greater Depression will be underway by 2020 AT THE VERY LATEST.

Now get out of my face poser. You've been called out on a new page.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

you are so fucking boring - you need to get out more. it is ok to be not so bright but to be boring is really sad

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I'm not going anywhere so you better get to work on a new strategy if you hope to keep up your 'disgruntled liberal' masquerade.

Next.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

you should know - since you are on a ows site - that liberal is not what we proclaim to be. lbj and jfk were liberals - the white upper middle class bourgeoisie are liberals. dummy - we are radicals. read the bottom of the site. and if ranting against the sell outs like obama and clinton - make me less of a liberal well thank god i say.

[-] 0 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I didn't call you a liberal dummy. I called you a conservative masquerading as a disgruntled liberal in order to offset the influence of OWS on liberal voters.

You're not worried about radicals unless they vote. Your purpose here is to discourage as many non-conservative voters as possible. That's why you go out of your way to name Democratic politicians. Say that reminds me.

How do you feel about raising taxes on the rich and their corporate golden geese? Should we pressure our sold-out leaders to do so or should we just 'not vote' and hope for the best as conservatives run the board?

A one. A two. A one two three.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

hey larry - you are entitled to your opinion but most experts disagree with you - with unemployment at 15% i think many from that time would also - this is from wiki -

The common view among economic historians is that the Great Depression ended with the advent of World War II. Many economists believe that government spending on the war caused or at least accelerated recovery from the Great Depression, though some consider that it did not play a very large role in the recovery. It did help in reducing unemployment.[9][61][62]

The rearmament policies leading up to World War II helped stimulate the economies of Europe in 1937–39. By 1937, unemployment in Britain had fallen to 1.5 million. The mobilization of manpower following the outbreak of war in 1939 ended unemployment.[63]

The US' entry into the war in 1941 finally eliminated the last effects from the Great Depression and brought the U.S. unemployment rate down below 10%.[64] In the U.S., massive war spending doubled economic growth rates, either masking the effects of the Depression or essentially ending the Depression. Businessmen ignored the mounting national debt and heavy new taxes, redoubling their efforts for greater output to take advantage of generous government contracts.

as to your history lesson - please spare me. your grasp if history is colored by your emotional problems on this issue. now go ahead - work your ass of for hillary and let me know how that works out.

[-] -3 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I read the wiki article years ago. It's old news. Again, I'm not disputing the unemployment rates. I never have. They were discussed here over three years ago within a long debate that I took part in. Probably others as well. I have them saved. I've re-posted a decade worth of them several times here on OWS. They are well documented and have been since long before wiki came to be.

Wiki articles are user written and updated. That is the essence of wiki. It's an excellent source of information in general but it's not a dictionary. The proper terms aren't always used. The article you cite is a perfect example.

The documented fact by actual definition in terms of economics and official recognition is that the Great Depression was ended in 1939 when GDP was fully restored. That is literally the definition of a recovery.

Now, the effects of a depression are a different story. They can last for many years. They were in fact eliminated years after the recovery. No argument there either. In fact, I've made reference to WWII thousands of times (yes, thousands) over a number of years when describing the recovery of the middle class and the lower majority. This is essentially acknowledged in the fourth paragraph of your incomplete citation although a bit sloppily and contradictory.

"either masking the effects of the Depression or essentially ending the Depression"

See that? Sloppy and contradictory. Again, wiki is great but it isn't perfect. It's user written and updated.

The Great Depression was ended in 1939 when GDP was fully restored. The lingering effects were eliminated years later.

You're confusing the end of the Great Depression with the lingering effects.

This isn't an argument that I bother to start most of the time. It generally serves no purpose. I realize that people sometimes use overlapping terms rather than actual definitions. I realize that when most people refer to depressions and recessions, they refer to the effects had overall, not simply the GDP. It doesn't bother me. The semantics aren't that relevant. The lingering effects damn well are. In fact, I have referred to the recovery of the lower majority as a TRUE recovery literally thousands of times. Dozens of times here on OWS.

But you picked this fight with your outrageous, conservative ideologue motivated, and blatantly false claim that FDR didn't end the Depression.

He damn well did and with the most fiscally liberal policies in American history. He did so two years BEFORE our troops joined the war effort. The war didn't end the depression. It simply accelerated the recovery from the lingering effects and left the masses with a net gain. This net gain resulted from the tax structure enacted under FDR. It transferred wealth from rich back to poor. Wealth that never should have been concentrated to begin with.

By the way, I couldn't help noticing that you left out most of the article including those references to concentration of wealth. Shady flip. Very shady.

Again, your true colors are shown. You're a fiscal conservative masquerading as a disgruntled liberal.

The Great Depression (1929-1939) www.gwu.edu/.../great-depression.cfm George Washington University

The Great Depression ended in 1939 with full restoration of GDP. To claim otherwise is sort of like saying that a speeding car doesn't actually stop until the passengers catch their breath.

The lingering effects end when the masses fully recover or when the passengers catch their breath.

Your grasp of history is colored by your conservative ideology.

Next.

Update: For several days now, I've been swearing that OWS has been taken over by fiscal conservatives posing as disgruntled liberals. Since then, all of my attempts to explain the benefits of liberal economic policies and even the most fiscally liberal President in American history have been marked down into negative territory.

Every single one.

I would say that "I rest my case" but I have no intention to.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

if you would read the conservative economic publications you would know that what i said was not conservative - they have a whole different take on the subject. i understand your point but you are outside the mainstream here. if you have half the brain you claim to you would know that we were ramping up the war industry long before any troops were even drafted. if you want to be really accurate you would have to take in population growth but i do not need to push you any closer to that edge you seem to be clinging to!

[-] 1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

The 'ramping up' angle is a good point. But it doesn't cover the full two years.

Again, the psychological jabs will have no effect on me. They are a waste of time.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

you are bragging about knowing that the dollar was not collapsing in march of 2014 - really? you knew porter was wrong - big whoop. some on you can do better. i read that shit porter sent out also. so how about this self taught genius - tell us when the dollar will no longer be the reserve currency - can you do that much

[-] 2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Bullshit. I didn't get one shred of support or even a single comment from you or anyone else on my Stansberry page. I was all alone on that one.

It won't happen in our lifetime. That's when.

By the way, I have never claimed any kind of superiority here or anywhere else. But I am aware of the skills and knowledge that I do have. Everyone has their own unique set.

For example, one of the original core users here is the man on all issues related to the environment and energy production. I will never match him on either issue. He is pretty damn good on economics and government/business corruption also.

There are at least two more core users here who are in my league on economics. One who goes into greater detail more often. Who is better?

Who cares? They have their unique approaches and I have mine.

I'm not going anywhere unless I get kicked off.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

But they amuse me so they are not a waste of time. Facts and logic don't seem to affect you either

[-] 1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

My facts and logic had me all over the web and talk radio as early as 05/06 predicting a number of significant events including an imminent market crash and another depression to follow. I predicted the Great Recession in 06. I attempted to predict the quarter in which it would begin. I was only off by one quarter.

I was one of only a handful worldwide to go on record in advance and get it right.

The depression is coming. It's the only prediction of a dozen or so that hasn't come true yet.

It will.

If you don't want me throwing this in your face then stop begging for it.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

well i too can read between the lines - and no you are not competent on economics - have you commented on my stephanie kelton posts - probably down voted them

[-] 1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Again, my record proves otherwise.

I may have. If not, I will tomorrow.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

ha ha ha - you're funny - stupid but funny. i get it now - can you direct me to the web where your amazing predictions are - can you?? can you? please

[-] 2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I already directed you to one of my old rants on the 1% which I started posting in short form long before the Great Recession hit. I made regular updates which included new predictions. All but one of them have come true. The big one will come true soon enough. It currently shows up over 25,500 times in search results.

Or you could simply do a little searching right here. For example:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/porter-stansberry-is-about-to-be-proven-dead-wrong/

If you hate me now, you're really going to hate me after reading that page. I didn't get one shred of support not even here. I didn't need it. My prediction was dead-on-balls accurate. AGAIN.

That's right. I was the guy who called WNIR, an Ohio radio station which is streamed on the web back in 2011 with an ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE that Porter Stansberry would be proven dead wrong. I even promised to call back with an apology if I were the one proven wrong.

Of course, that wasn't necessary. I was right and Porter Stansberry was wrong.

TWICE.

I guess you'll be taking the usual potshots at my level of formal education from now on as well. Go ahead. They will have no effect on me.

There is no shame in being an autodidact.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/porter-stansberry-is-about-to-be-proven-dead-wrong/

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

you were off by one quarter - badly off - i nailed it to the day - so you were wrong! i do need to be nicer to you - you are delusional - wow throwing what in my face. i have predicted more and better than you i just don't tell everyone - ALL THE FUCKING TIME. i called nixon's resignation and the moon landing within one day - called the '87 crash to the day and the tech crash to the minute! should i go on - i also know the moon is made of green cheese but the government is hiding it from us - not sure why - you must know don't you?

[-] 2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I have no reason to believe any of what you claim. Zero.

Again, if you don't want my record of accurate predictions, which unlike yours, is all over the web thrown in your face, then stop begging for it.

I don't give a rat's ass about credit. In fact, I have always encouraged others to spread the word even if that means pasting my entries as their own simply for convenience. But I will defend myself when I'm called stupid or ignorant by people like you. My record proves otherwise.

The Greatest Depression of all time will be well underway by 2020 because of the ongoing concentration of wealth.

Unless Obama somehow prevents the conservatives from enacting their promised wave of tax breaks for the rich and their corporate golden geese, it will come sooner and more severe.

I don't see how he can not even as President.

The Greatest Depression of all time will most likely be well underway by 2018 or sooner. The pieces are already in place for another crash and HUGE market decline. The only significant variable is Obama. Damn right he is a sold out politician pig but he has enacted well over a trillion in stimulus already. There will be more to come under his administration. He may very well succeed in delaying the inevitable by another few years.

It will come regardless.

Not one of us will live to see a true recovery.

I'll be saying "I told you so." to my critics of 2020 and beyond.

[-] -1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

boo hoo - nobody supported me on my stupid stansberry page. that's because it was not important! your league in economics - wow - you never cease to amaze

[-] 2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Give it a rest already. I only meant that I'm one of several users here competent on the issue.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

who are you lawerence welk? i never tell anyone not to vote. i just don't like those who tell us that voting is the answer - since it is so obviously not. and yea i really don't like the democrats - they are the ones masquerading as liberals - not me. and they sucked you in big time eh? anyone with a brain knows what the gop stands for - they are pretty open about it! its the dems and their cheerleaders who are ruining the country. remember 2008 - 8 yrs of bush and cheney and you dumb crackers voted for "change we can believe in" - and what did you get - more war, more bank bailouts - take a look at your boys nominations for the fed etc. what a joke - now there is a one and a two and a three for you to dance to! what do you care how i feel about raising taxes - you got your one trick - that seems good enough for you.

[-] 0 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

How do you feel about raising taxes on the rich and their corporate golden geese? Should we pressure our sold-out leaders to do so or should we just 'not vote' and hope for the best as conservatives run the board?

A one. A two. A one two three.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

i am glad you don't believe me since you are a dimwit and that would make me nervous. unemployment went from 23%in 1932 to 17% in '36 then back up to 19% in 1938 and almost 15% in 1940 - you call that a cure! do you! then to 5% in 1942 - so what does that tell you? both parties are funded by the rich you hate with so much fervor - both parties are responsible for sucking the money out of your working class pockets. in some ways the dems are worse since they pretend to want to help poor working suckers like you! remember 2008 - don't make me put up all of obama's broken pledges - don't make me look them up one by one - it will not help your case so shut it down here. as for ike - do some of your own research - i am tired of trying to educate you - i am afraid you are hopeless - but you knew that already didn't you?

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

The onset was 1929. The worst year was 1933 with an unemployment rate of 25%. The official and actual end was 1939.

However, an economic depression is not simply a state of higher unemployment. It's a state of drastically reduced economic activity.

Yes, the Great Depression was officially and actually cured under FDR in 1939. GDP had been fully restored. In addition, the necessary and vital transfer of wealth from rich back to poor was well underway thanks to FDR, the most fiscally liberal President in American history.

The Depression was officially and actually over in 1939. World War II simply kicked that necessary, vital, and continued redistribution of wealth from rich back to poor into over-drive. Because the US government was the primary employer and the primary customer of domestic manufacturing, the lower majority ended up with huge economic gains while the rich ended up with a net loss in relative buying power after taxes. Because taxes on the rich remained very high, the gradual redistribution of wealth from rich back to poor continued until 1976. This was the best year ever for the middle class.

Unfortunately, the immoral tactics of the rich had finally evolved to a point where they were able to begin reversing the fantastic progress made in spite of higher taxes.

That wealth concentrating pig, Ronald Reagan, the worst president in American history, took office in 1981 and IMMEDIATELY got to work concentrating as much wealth as possible as quickly as possible.

The concentration of wealth accelerated under Reagan, slowed under Clinton, and accelerated again under Bush Jr. I'm not sure about Bush Sr who was probably the best Republican President we ever had. Of course, that's not saying much.

Damn right Obama is a lying politician. What else is new. Of course, many of his stated goals have not been met. They never will be.

Welcome to the real world of unrealistic campaign promises and relentless obstructionism from the most stubborn bunch of Republicans in history.

Again, in cowardly poser FAKE LIBERAL fashion, you flat-out refuse to acknowledge plain English.

I have stated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that BOTH parties are corrupt and that BOTH parties concentrate wealth. They have been doing so for over 35 years.

The difference is that Republicans concentrate more wealth.

Democrats concentrate less wealth.

This makes the Democrats the lesser evil.

I will be busting my ass here and all over the web over the next two years to help get a Democrat elected in 2016 UNLESS a moderate Republican with a proven record of compromise runs in which case I MAY help get him or her elected depending on the circumstances.

But I WILL do everything I can to get the lesser evil elected. In all likelihood, that lesser evil will be a Democrat.

There will be no independent with a chance in Hell of winning.

Save the pathetic grade-school psychological crap. It will have no effect on me.

Now get busy with your multiple IDs.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

hey larry, yes - that is a good wall street journal, 6th grade history review of history. i suggest you read howard zinn - look him up. did you mention people being killed by elected leaders to get civil rights and the 8 hour day etc. did i miss that part or did you think civil activism covers that? very weak but that is what i expected - given your one track mind i guess i should be surprised.

ok so here we go. i believe we should raise taxes on the rich. i would like to go back to the days of eisenhower to start with. i would like to have a much more egalitarian society - the usa of the 60's and 70's was much better from that point of view but still not good enough for me. so does that do it for you. so now it seems our disagreement is on voting no? you believe that people should vote for the lesser of evils and i know what history shows us. but please - can you try to be less boring - please - we all know where you stand but over and over - this is ows - do you know what that means?

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

My 9 year long and counting run of almost entirely accurate predictions has resulted from a deep understanding of human nature, basic history, and simple math. The problem with many of those who obsess over the trivia of history is that they have no fucking clue about human nature and for some reason, can not apply simple math to economics.

The rich are too rich. PERIOD.

This includes your multi-deca-millionaire bitch, Russell Brand.

So now, FINALLY after well over two weeks of dancing yourself dizzy, you PRETEND to agree that we should raise taxes on the rich. But you do so making positive reference to Eisenhower, a Republican known for his IDIOT CONSERVATIVE VIEWS on taxes while ignoring FDR, the most fiscally liberal President in US history who CURED the Great Depression in large part, with tax HIKES on the rich and swearing on your Mother's grave that voting makes no difference whatsoever.

A quote from your little bald headed bitch:

"What I have said is, reduction of taxes is a very necessary objective of government–that if our form of economy is to endure, we must not forget private incentives and initiative and the production that comes from it. Therefore, the objective of tax reduction is an absolutely essential one, and must be attained in its proper order."

Yes, taxes on the rich remained high under Eisenhower. But it wasn't his doing. He inherited the sound tax structure of a by-gone era that made God-like sense when compared to the wealth concentrating rates under Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, Bush Jr, and Obama.

Clinton and Obama being the lesser of above evil as tax rates on the rich were considerably higher under Clinton and currently slightly higher under Obama compared to the other three.

In terms of kissing rich pig ass, Democrats damn well are the LESSER EVIL.

So you can take your pro-Eisenhower diversionary crap and shove it right back up your conservative ass.

Time to get busy with your multiple IDs. That's it. You can do it.

Mark mark mark!

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

boy you are a cranky little dimwit aren't you. reread what i wrote and show me where it says i liked eisenhower's ideas on taxes - i like the rates of "the days of eisenhower" - 92% - do you have a problem with that? now i do think you placed your adjectives incorrectly - you seem to have no understanding of human nature, only the most simple understanding of history and math is too deep for you. and how about giving your supposed prediction record a rest. nobody believes your nonsense - if you are so good at this stuff how about telling us what the stock market will do monday. we can all make big bets on it and send all the money to ows - change the world!

as for eisenhower he is to the left of your lesser evil obama - now that doesn't mean i think he is wonderful - just stating a fact. if you had any understanding of history you would know that fdr did not cure the depression - the war did! also his most effective move was putting people to work . his big mistake was in 1937 raising taxes and cutting spending - trying to balance the budget (stupid idea no?). Paul Krugman describes it: that fateful moment in the middle of the Depression when "spending was cut back, monetary policy was tightened -- and the economy promptly plunged back into the depths."

seems that everyone here but you knows where i stand on the issues. i wonder why that is? we disagree on voting - ok - but let's be clear you do not know where the answer for our problems will come from. nobody does - i know i know - you are the great predictor but if you really believe that you are dumber than i thought - and i thought you were pretty dumb!

[-] 0 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I don't believe you flip. I've been keeping track. You're still running with the 'both parties are bad, neither are worth voting for, but Democrats are worse' angle.

You just did so again by claiming that Eisenhower was to the left of Obama on taxes.

No because they were high on the rich throughout the era. It wasn't Eisenhower's doing by any stretch of the imagination. It was FDRs doing. The most fiscally liberal and easily the best President in American history. In fact, he is the only one that I would call 'good' at all.

Damn right FDR cured the Great Depression in large part with MUCH higher taxes on the rich. The first Great Depression was cured under FDR two years BEFORE our troops joined the war effort. The NECESSARY AND VITAL redistribution of wealth from rich back to poor was already underway under FDR in it's slow and early stages when our troops finally joined the war effort two years later.

Because millions of women replaced millions of men on the production lines while they all got paid to fight a war on tax dollars, the necessary and vital redistribution from rich back to poor accelerated.

That one year you referred to was the one and only year that FDR gave into more conservative political pressures.

This was covered in detail back in 2011.

Again, for the twentieth time, stop putting words at my fingers.

There will be no 'answer'. Not one of us will live to see it. The Greater Depression is on it's way thanks to the rich and their IDIOT fans.

If you're one of the investing pigs hoping to cash in on market fluctuations at the expense of ordinary people, then do your own God damn research.

[-] -1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

ok lawerence - tell you what - i will answer your question about taxes if you answer mine. how has change come about though out history? i am thinking - abolition of slavery, womens rights, civil rights - maybe throw in the 8 hour work day, the right to unionize and strike. how did that change come about larry - that would be a four, five and six!

[-] 0 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

That's easy. By a combination of civil activism, political pressure, and voting for the lesser of evil along the way. Otherwise, nothing would have changed.

How do you feel about raising taxes on the rich and their corporate golden geese? Should we pressure our sold-out leaders to do so or should we just 'not vote' and hope for the best as conservatives run the board?

A one. A two. A one two three.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

For Ferguson? or for St. Louis in general? Or was that perhaps for the state?

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

No, Ferguson. It's right next to STL.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

And you bring this up - why?

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Because if you have ever been to the airport you would know the area.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

I think you misunderstood.

Why bring up:

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (16) 4 hours ago

Violent crime 150% of the national average and property crime at least twice the national average. This also doesn't take into account drug activity. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

If the area is predominately African American, why is there so much crime? This gets back to my original question, why does so much violence happen in these communities. And it is just not Ferguson, look at Chicago.. The police force in Chicago is minority white. Why didn't they vote out the city council?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

why is there so much crime?

Look anywhere in the world you want - find a large population living in poverty - go further and put plenty in sight - but understand that that plenty is not for those people - it is for the other people there that have affluence and so the plenty in sight is out of reach.

And what do you end up with? Crime - lots of crime. Hell you don't even need to tease the poor with a display of goods (including food) that the do not have the money to buy. The only shops in a whole area may just be meager food stuffs - still - with no other temptations than rudimentary food- still there will be a high rate of crime. Why there? Why not out of that neighborhood and into an affluent neighborhood? Because - actually some do go out of their area to find better pickings - but most will operate where they are because that is where they are and so it is no travel problem.

why does so much violence happen in these communities.

You live with needs that you can not meet - day after day year after year decade after decade - getting tossed out of your home time and again and struggling to find a new roof to live under - wondering how long this time will last. Think you might get a little irritable?

Why didn't they vote out the city council?

Hmmmm - think they have opted out because the system is rigged against them and always has been? Does voter suppression make a difference? Why did 2/3 of the voters (nationally) opt out in these 2014 midterms?

Don't blame crime and violence on color nor blame poverty on color either - crime and violence are committed by all colors (yes white is a color too) and in all societies. And the haves and the have not's can be of the same race living in their own country and the divider that has been erected may be a caste system like in India.

Crime and Violence is a symptom of disease in society and that disease is inequality.

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Color has nothing to do with it and I agree that unemployment is a major factor.Culture is the major factor. There is no emphasis made on education and two parent families.The Northern European cultures have used this as their foundation for centuries and it has driven their success. Many black tribes in Africa have done the same.The one parent family is a major issue in poverty as is education.

So I go back to my question, if it is a black majority area, why isn't it a black majority school board, police force, city council and then why don't they force better schools. In many towns there is no majority and they can't do it. This seems baffling to me. Why are they forcing school choice as other black communities have done with a lot of success. Why haven't they forced through economic growth issues like many of their neighboring states have with a lot of success; I had a Apple manufacturing guy tell me the other day that TN is one of their favorite places over China for new plants.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Peace must be waged - in this country as well as around the world.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/15/1345195/-Waging-Peace-NOT-War

How will this happen here? No doubt it will happen much like the civil rights movement:

Nation Ferguson decision triggers nationwide protests ... www.usatoday.com/.../25/ferguson...wilson-nationwide-protests/70080116

Nov 25, 2014 · Ferguson decision triggers nationwide protests. Protesters across the nation marched and chanted their discontent with the decision by a Missouri grand ...

and from such will come further organizing and from there perhaps we will see that change of color bloom in the community structure of Ferguson - as well as elsewhere.

[-] -1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

There is no easy, or singular answer as to why crime rates are high in the city. In fairness though, I don't know if that is the case in Ferguson or not.

If a young inner-city person of color is charged and found guilty of a crime, that youth is several more times likely to go to jail than your progeny and for a longer time, for the SAME offense. That is assuming that your kids are suburban and white. Much of the discrimination in this country is insidious, and unless that you have experienced it, seen it first-hand, or really looked into it, in my opinion it is unfair for anyone to pass judgement on the riots.

The benefits of white-privelege are huge, but along with that unfortunately comes a certain kind of naivety. Here are just a few of the things that need to be taken into consideration..... our insane incarceration rates... the destructive inter-generational effects of mass incarceration....victimless crimes and non-violent crimes...lack of rehabilitation...private prisons....the arrogance and the militarization of police forces...lack of opportunity.....understanding the term Iron Triangle, and Prison Industrial Complex...prison guards and corporations that benefit from incarceration contributing large sums of money to political campaigns...and minimum wage worth less than in the '60's. There's tons more though, and we cannot overlook (lacking better words) 'personal responsibility,'

[EDIT] And if you did decide to try and make a judgement on this national calamity...then, you should do so with impartial eyes, if that's possible.

I think that it woud be fair to say that people of color have felt the deleterious effects of neoliberalism for far longer than we have. And we both know, there is much despair on this forum, knowing too that we can't afford to fail. So we shouldn't be surprised if people who have been the victims of injustice for far longer than us, or people who care deeply about our country are angry...., or a whole lot more...

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

I agree that blacks are put into prison at a much higher rate than other groups and that has to end. But that doesn't get to the real problem. There is a large cultural issue in many poor communities - black, white and Latino - that doesn't value education. Not so much in the Asian communities. These people are being left behind. And because of the failure of our school systems these people have no hope.

Those people burning their own buildings in MO are just out having a good time. They having nothing to lose. The disintegration of the family - black and white - is something we will pay for.

In my opinion, the divergence that so many people like to talk about here - the 1% - is not the real separation. The real separation is between the families that marry, stay together, are religious and stress education. That is the benefit of white privelege that you talk about.

I was in the inner city the other day at 9pm and stopped at a fast food place to eat. I was sitting in the car because my high school daughter was calling me to ask about for help with her math homework. I went inside and I saw a table full of black high school girls all on their phones. The difference was striking.

[-] 2 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

There were at least three major considerations to my BAD, that I missed in my original post to you. If you really want to attempt to understand the anger and despair that is going on in Ferguson and throughout much of the country, as I do, I suggest that you put some time into it.

The three discrimatory considerations that add up to 200 plus years of injustices are; First is slavery, then Jim Crow and finally a more insidious on-going one called "white privelege," and a criminology enforcement term called "Broken Windows."

I would like to put up the link, but I have lost the ability to copy and paste (temporarily, I hope). I urge you to Google up, Broken Windows - Alexis Goldsein - and perhaps Medium web site. Reading this acclaimed essay gave me an even better understanding in how social and economic justice go hand in hand. I hope that it does the same for you. Note; As you may know, MS Goldstein was a very early Occupier, is or was in Occupy The SEC, and a co-author of the dynamite letter to them...and more recently, she joined The Other 98% as well. She is also a former Wall Streeter. IMO we are extremely lucky to have such people on our side. She is a whiz, and I admire her greatly.

From my understanding "white privelege" does not mean that you are immune from prosecution, but rather that you are far more likely to have your civil liberties respected. And "Broken Windows" is an enforcement term where you go after the low-level offenders (which BTW, not surprisingly, plays out mostly in our inner-cities), and in effect leaves the BIG guys alone, to screw us again, of course!! Sound familiar? That two-tier system of justice (injustice), and the shitty effects it has on us is why most of us are here....well isn't it?? And when you come right down to it, IMO...there are three tiers being enforced or not being so, but being white with successful kids too, it's easy to forget and ignore that, but that doesn't make that POV less accurate or less valid.

We're in a new catch-phrase-free era now. Read Ms Goldstein's essay, and another similar one, With Economic Justice For All. *Google - Huffinton Post Blog on that.

Think about it. I have.

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

The Broken Windows theory comes from the Deming quality school which used data to demand 100% adherence to standards. The Japanese used this after WWII to improve their manufacturing. The police forces have used this theory to reduce crime very successfully. Do you remember NYC back in the '70s?

There have been many very good economic studies done globally that equates unemployment to unrest; I actually did one back in '91. As an aside Goldstein is a former trader who lasted less that 10 years in the private sector and decided to write about what she feels. They are opinion pieces not economic studies which are backed by data.

All of these studies come up with two crucial causal points. Education and family matter. Kids who are educated and come from two parent families do better than kids who don't graduate from high school and one parent families. This has been prevalent in the black family starting in the early '60s; ironically enough there is an argument out there from the black community that desegregation ruined their institutions which were never replaced.

For blacks in Ferguson to thrive there has to be rule of law. There is none. How many of those burned out buildings will be rebuilt? History shows us that the answer is very few. McDonalds will not rebuild as the loss is too great.

This has little to do with a white police force but is a cultural issue. Just look at the areas of Chicago where there is a black police force. The murder rate is far ahead of the national average with most of it black on black .This lack of the rule of law has caused blacks to move out of these areas and businesses to close.

This issue is not color but cultural. It is taking hold in some white and Latino areas as well. Only the Asians have been immune to it so far.

[-] 5 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 3 years ago

What ''rule of law'' is there, when you can easily be killed in the street by a cop with legal cover from the state ?!!! You make some fair points but 'The Incarceration Industrial Complex' lobbies hard to maintain the Drug Law status quo for example !! Decades of neglect in investment in schools and Education, as well as being 'Indentured by Student Debt' and off-shored manufacturing jobs and inter alia, the outright racist policing has lead to the present pickle ! Also fyi :

fiat justitia ...

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

What ''rule of law'' is there, when you can easily be killed in the street by a cop with legal cover from the state ?!!!

Why there is the "Stand Your Ground Laws" for the population in extremes to use. I mean those laws were put on the books for just such things - weren't they? In reasonable fear for ones life - the law says you can murder someone - kinda preemptively. However I bet ALEC didn't have community protection against murdering police in mind when they pushed through that legislation in many states.

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

You are absolutely correct in regards to your rule of law point and that is why that has to end. The drug laws have not worked and need to be changed.

Investment in schools has increased from previous levels so it is not an investment question but a cultural one. This will be the hardest problem to change because it gets to personal behaviour.

The people in the inner city aren't going to college so don't have student debt.Manufacturing is coming back to the US as energy prices have dropped due to fracking. Will the people in Ferguson benefit from this if they don't have high school degrees or a trade, probably not. We come back to education and how do we force people to make it a priority?

[-] 5 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 3 years ago

A Living Wage would make a big difference to quality of life ! "The people in the inner city aren't going to college so don't have student debt." - is a bit of an exaggeration I suspect !! Debt servitude - one way or another, is Not anyone's ambition in life but is many people's lived experience and we should feel much more outraged by proven : avaricious ; larcenous ; psychopathic ; scumbag Wall Street Banksters than a few 'extreme shoppers' taking advantage of relative chaos temporarily at Thanksgiving .. because they have fck all to 'give thanks' for most of the time !!! Happy 'TG' and solidarity & fyi :

ad iudicium ...

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Yeah, the idea of a living wage or guaranteed income has been discussed for a while now and it is very interesting as it might fix the support issues you are discussing at the lowest levels. I wonder if it institutionalizes those people who receive it as they will never have any incentives to leave. The Clinton area welfare reform proved us all wrong in that reducing support moved more people off of ACDF.

[-] 5 points by ShadzSixtySix (1936) 3 years ago

It is in all our interests that abject poverty and deprivation is really kept to an absolute minimum and the disincentives to work are minimal if a Living Wage is prioritised - indeed, I would argue that it's quite the reverse in real world practice & "guaranteed income"can be for 60+ people to encourage early retirement to free up jobs for younger folk.

The extent off Corporate Level Greed has 'trickled down' to smaller employers now & wages and salaries seem to be resented being paid for work done by employees as the employers seek to keep as much of the Profits of Labour as possible.

We are all better off ... when we are all better off !! Crapitalist Corporate Globalisation tries to pit workers against each other in a classic 'divide and rule' manner & unions are discouraged and persecuted in this era of unquestioned Neo-liberal ; 'Chicago School' / Friedmanite ; 'Washington Consensus' - Austerity at home & Neocon Wars, abroad.

It need not be like this - with wealth being hoovered up as opposed to 'trickling down'. There now can be other ways to behave other than raping and pillaging The Planet in pursuance of short term Super Profits as soon as possible. A far better, much more holistic and sustainable way of life is actually possible for us all. ~ Resistance Is Fertile.

dum spiro, spero ...

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Michael Brown was two weeks away from leaving for college. You seem to have difficulty with understanding the atmosphere/environment that the population is living in in Ferguson. The following may help your understanding.

The complete guide to every public eyewitness interview in the shooting death of Mike Brown

Why exactly did the police lie for 108 days about how far Mike Brown ran from Darren Wilson?

If you find this helpful - there is plenty more.

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

I have only read a few cursory articles on the killing of Michael Brown. It appears to me be a complete over reach by the police department. He is probably not innocent as well but didn't deserve this outcome. Ferguson will need to revamp its laws so that this doesn't happen again.

It won't solve the underlying issues as black on black crime is so large. I am not sure how you change the cultural issues.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

It won't solve the underlying issues as black on black crime is so large. I am not sure how you change the cultural issues.

[ EDIT ] I think I replied to that before - but in case I didn't.

Poverty breeds crime and violence - does not matter location - nor does it matter the racial mix or lack thereof.

The following I wrote concerning USA policy and practice - but the concept works for being applied here at home as well.

Waging Peace NOT War

One can not bomb ones way to peace.

Neither does oppressive policing work.

Inequality is a disease that kills societies.

EDIT-> I think the following also applies right here at home in the USA as also around the world.

For our children's future.

The breakdown of the family is a large addition to the break down of society.

Even when a family has two parents - the kids often do not get the time with either parent that they need. A living minimum wage - would do much to alleviate the time lost to family - by allowing the parents to work reasonable hours.

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

I agree with all of your comments. Poverty does breed violence. In my opinion the only way that has worked to get rid of poverty is education and the differential between the educated and non educated is only getting worse as new lower cost societies join the markets.

I have no answer for the familial problems as not much seems to work.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

where do you read this nonsense? investment in schools is not a question? wow - and i imagine the american indian culture is responsible for their problems also - right? wow again - happy thanksgiving! here is diane ravitch - if you need more from her i can get it for you but this should be enough for any "educated" person - are you one? doesn't sound like it - neocon - or maybe old cracker con.

DIANE RAVITCH: Well, we have been, for at least the last decade and more, trapped in this standardized testing obsession. And we have the No Child Left Behind law, which George W. Bush sponsored, and it was overwhelmingly endorsed by Congress in 2001. And it has imposed on the schools utopian goals that, by the year 2014, 100 percent of children will be proficient. And if they’re not proficient, your principal will be fired, the teachers will be fired, the school will be closed, or it will be turned over to private management or turned into a charter school.

So, I can’t imagine what they were thinking, except that there was this idea that there had been a Texas miracle. That’s what George W. Bush ran on, was the Texas miracle. And we now know there was no Texas miracle. And yet we’re stuck with a law that no one has the wits to change, and it just stays there, crushing schools across the country with standardized testing. So we had, for example, President Obama in his State of the Union address this year said the most important way to win the future is to encourage innovation, creativity and imagination. We will never do that with the route that we’re taking now, with all of this emphasis on high-stakes testing and attacking teachers. And, you know, what’s going on across the country—budget cutting in state after state, increasing class sizes—this is all terrible for the future.

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Education spending in MO has grown almost 50% from 2010 to 2014. Ferguson public school spend $15,000 per student compared to the US average of $12,400. WOW, data is not backing up your assertions.

I am not defending NCLB as there is not enough data to show if it is working.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

not enough data - who the hell needs data on this one? let's see - the ruling elite and hedge fund managers want to push certain school reforms. busting unions, privatizing schools, teaching to the test - need i go on? and who profits - follow the money big guy. you will see that the same people funding the think tanks and the politicians - like cuomo. that great liberal democrat. read diane and let me know what you think -

The 'Great American School System' Flunks Out

Diane Ravitch's Death and Life of the Great American School System is a scathing report card of U.S. education. The former assistant secretary of education hands down a withering critique of the nation's schooling efforts — from charter schools, to No Child Left Behind, to Teach for America.

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

You didn't comment on the funding issue which you brought up. You said that the schools were undefunded in Ferguson, that clearly is not true.

From the National Bureau of Economic Research;

"The impact of NCLB is identified using a comparative interrupted time series analysis that relies on comparisons of the test-score changes across states that already had school-accountability policies in place prior to NCLB and those that did not. Our results indicate that NCLB generated statistically significant increases in the average math performance of 4th graders (effect size = 0.22 by 2007) as well as improvements at the lower and top percentiles. There is also evidence of improvements in 8th grade math achievement, particularly among traditionally low-achieving groups and at the lower percentiles. However, we find no evidence that NCLB increased reading achievement in either 4th or 8th grade".

I have a question for you, how come Diane Ravitch, who was in a position of power, didn't implement her ideas?

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

did you notice the part where it says - with parents and private foundations picking up more of the costs. - what do you think that means? work on it - get back to me with a thoughtful answer - where does that money come from and where does it go? i know - do you?

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

i said nothing about ferguson - read more carefully. do some reading for yourself if you want to know about diane. very easy to find out who she was and who she is now and why. one does not need sophisticated research to understand the effect of poverty on education and all aspects of life. one simply needs to have eyes open and the brain working. a good education can help here - if immigrant and working class parents do their job properly it would eliminate lots of these stupid discussions. no blaming the victim in my irish and sicilian parents home. they understood class and power - and you?

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

We never blamed the environment and what life gave us and always worked harder knowing that there is one thing that they can't take away from you and that is your education. The only way out of poverty is opportunity and opportunity comes from education and discipline.

Spending is not a problem, from the OECD report:

"The United States spends more than other developed nations on its students' education each year, with parents and private foundations picking up more of the costs. Despite the spending, U.S. students still trail their rivals on international tests.The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development — which groups the world's most developed countries — writes in its annual report that brand-new and experienced teachers alike in the United States out-earn most of their counterparts around the globe.

The findings, part of a 440-page tome of statistics, put the United States' spending on its young people in context.

The United States spent more than $11,000 per elementary student in 2010 and more than $12,000 per high school student. When researchers factored in the cost for programs after high school education such as college or vocational training, the United States spent $15,171 on each young person in the system — more than any other nation covered in the report.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

don't we all love a mainstream educated cracker here at ows. no it is not about culture - is is about poverty. so how about putting up some evidence for your racist opinions - and remember i have smarter people crunching numbers and writing blogs that i can lean on. better read diane ravitch before you pitch me many softballs.

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Really nice way to respond with name calling.

I won't link you to a bunch of blogs - if these writers had any credence they would be doing research where they could make money,not giving it away for free.

"It's clear in America that family structure and poverty are intertwined: Nearly a third of households headed by single women live below the poverty line. And just six percent of families led by married couples are in the official ranks of the poor. Poverty, meanwhile, touches an astounding 45 percent of children who live without a father.

Recent research by Raj Chetty, Nathaniel Hendron, Patrick Kline, Emmanuel Saez and Nicholas Turner also found that intergenerational income mobility was lower in metropolitan areas with a larger share of single mothers.

http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/hendren/files/trends_in_intergenerational_mobility_pdf.pdf

It has been shown over and over that African blacks who emigrate to other countries do better than American Blacks. Nearly all of these countries have less resources assigned to schools than the US.

"For several decades, the late educational scholar John U. Ogbu theorized about and studied the academic performance of immigrant and non-immigrant (also referred to as voluntary and involuntary, respectively) minority students...The team observed 110 different classes, from kindergarten all the way through high school.

They conducted exhaustive interviews with school personnel, black parents, and students. Their project yielded an unexpected conclusion: It wasn't socioeconomics, school funding, or racism, that accounted for the students' poor academic performance; it was their own attitudes, and those of their parents.

Ogbu concluded that the average black student in Shaker Heights put little effort into schoolwork and was part of a peer culture that looked down on academic success as "acting white." Although he noted that other factors also play a role, and doesn't deny that there may be antiblack sentiment in the district, he concluded that discrimination alone could not explain the gap.

"The black parents feel it is their role to move to Shaker Heights, pay the higher taxes so their kids could graduate from Shaker, and that's where their role stops," Ogbu says during an interview at his home in the Oakland hills. "They believe the school system should take care of the rest. They didn't supervise their children that much. They didn't make sure their children did their homework. That's not how other ethnic groups think."

How come Wise doesn't address why violent crime is up in areas where there are majority black police forces? Using his logic, if the problem is a white police force then the problem is solved with a black police force and DA. Violent crime in Chicago has increased. How do you and Tim Wise want to solve this problem?

Go ahead with the name calling.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

ok - you're stupid! read diane instead of these elite charter school hedge fund shit heads. google peter and stop reading brooking institute - Peter Greene: Brookings Finds that Character Breeds Success, and Most Poor Kids Don’t Have It.

as to black policemen - don't you understand anything about the political structure. indians are paid to kill indians and black are paid to kill blacks. this is what powe has always done. do you know the name quisling? are you one - probably not - you were born to privilege no? you didn't have to sell out to get where you are i imagine.

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Professor Ogbu was from Cal Berkeley, not any conservative think tank:

John Uzo Ogbu was a Nigerian-American anthropologist and professor known for his theories on observed phenomena involving race and intelligence, especially how race and ethnic differences played out in educational and economic achievement. Born in the village of Umudome in Ebonyi State, Ogbu attended Hope Waddell Training Institute and Methodist Teachers' Training College. He enrolled at Princeton Theological Seminary, but soon transferred to the University of California, Berkeley to study anthropology, earning his baccalaureate in 1965, his master's degree in 1969, and his Ph.D. in 1971. He taught at UC Berkeley from 1970 until his death.

You obviously want this discussion to get personal since you are asking. My Mom and Dad were Irish immigrants to the US and came with nothing as they were persecuted by the British. They knew they only thing they had was their education and they forced that on their children. I worked my way through undergrad and went to night school to get my graduate degree while working.

So go ahead and fire away. You seem to think it makes it feel better.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

or do you like alan watts better -
Let me illustrate this point and, at the same time, explain the major obstacle to sane technological progress, by dwelling on the fundamental confusion between money and wealth, Remember the Great Depression of the Thirties? One day there was a flourishing consumer economy, with everyone on the up-and-up; and the next, unemployment, poverty, and bread lines, What happened? The physical resources of the country the brain, brawn, and raw materials were in no way depleted, but there was a sudden absence of money, a so-called financial slump.

Complex reasons for this kind of disaster can be elaborated at length by experts on banking and high finance who cannot see the forest for the trees, But it was just as if someone had come to work on building a house and, on the morning of the Depression, the boss had said, "Sorry, baby, but we can't build today. No inches." "Whaddya mean, no inches? We got wood, We got metal. We even got tape measures.' "Yeah, but you don't understand business. We been using too many inches and there's just no more to go around."

A few years later, people were saying that Germany couldn't possibly equip a vast army and wage a war, because it didn't have enough gold. What wasn't understood then, and still isn't really understood today, is that the reality of money is of the same type as the reality of centimeters, grams, hours, or lines of longitude. Money is a way of measuring wealth but is not wealth in itself. A chest of gold coins or a fat wallet of bills is of no use whatsoever to a wrecked sailor alone on a raft He needs real wealth, in the form of a fishing rod, a compass, an outboard motor with gas, and a female companion.

But this ingrained and archaic confusion of money with wealth is now the main reason we are not going ahead full tilt with the development of our technological genius for the production of more than adequate food, clothing, housing, and utilities for every person on earth. It can be done, for electronics, computers, automation techniques, and other mechanical methods of mass production have, potentially, lifted us into an age of abundance in which the political and economic ideologies of the past, whether left, middle, or right, are simply obsolete. There is no question anymore of the old socialist or communist schemes of robbing the rich to pay the poor, or of financing a proper distribution of wealth by the ritualistic and tiresome mumbo jumbo of taxation, If, if we get our heads straight about money

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Thank you for your comments and background. It was good reading.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

not sure if you know alan watts - a drunk mystic from the 50's and 60's. he introduced eastern philosophy to the west - to some extent anyway. i assume you know michael hudson and kelton - and what do you think about their point of view? my favorite is noam - on almost any subject.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

or maybe you like noam - Man: Mr. Chomsky, I'm wondering what specific qualifications you have to be able to speak all around the country about world affairs?

Noam: None whatsoever. I mean, the qualifications that I have to speak on world affairs are exactly the same ones Henry Kissinger has, and Walt Rostow has, or anybody in the Political Science Department, professional historians -- none, none that you don't have. The only difference is, I don't pretend to have qualifications, nor do I pretend that qualifications are needed. I mean, if somebody were to ask me to give a talk on quantum physics, I'd refuse -- because I don't understand enough. But world affairs are trivial: there's nothing in the social sciences or history or whatever that is beyond the intellectual capacities of an ordinary fifteen-year-old. You have to do a little work, you have to do some reading, you have to be able to think but there's nothing deep -- if there are any theories around that require some special kind of training to understand, then they've been kept a carefully guarded secret.

In fact, I think the idea that you're supposed to have special qualifications to talk about world affairs is just another scam -- it's kind of like Leninism [position that socialist revolution should be led by a "vanguard" party]: it's just another technique for making the population feel that they don't know anything, and they'd better just stay out of it and let us smart guys run it. In order to do that, what you pretend is that there's some esoteric discipline, and you've got to have some letters after your name before you can say anything about it. The fact is, that's a joke.

Man: But don't you also use that system too, because of your name-recognition and the fact that you're a famous linguist? I mean, would I be invited to go somewhere and give talks?

Noam: You think I was invited here because people know me as a linguist? Okay, if that was the reason, then it was a bad mistake. But there are plenty of other linguists around, and they aren't getting invited to places like this -- so I don't really think that can be the reason. I assumed that the reason is that these are topics that I've written a lot about, and I've spoken a lot about, and I've demonstrated a lot about, and I've gone to jail about, and so on and so forth -- I assumed that's the reason. If it's not, well, then it's a bad mistake. If anybody thinks you should listen to me because I'm a professor at M.I.T., that's nonsense. You should decide whether something makes sense by its content, not by the letters after the name of the person who says it. And the idea that you're supposed to have special qualifications to talk about things that are common sense, that's just another scam -- it's another way to try to marginalize people, and you shouldn't fall for it.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

ok so now counter what diane has to say. and please take into account the class and power relations of the situation. and never forget that the irish - no matter what they suffered at the hands of anglos - eventually became white! do not forget your roots - do not forget your white privilege

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Diane Ravitch appears to not like NCLB. I really have no opinion on it as I do not have enough data to say whether it is working. I am hard pressed to support education without testing as you will never know what works and what doesn't. She seems to be against charter schools, against testing, against holding teachers accountability and for eliminating poverty and emulating the Finnish schools - which by the way are nearly entirely homogeneous and with a Northern European culture of education and discipline. I don't disagree with her but wonder since she has been in a seat of power as to why she didn't improve the schools when she had a chance.

You again want to make this personal but I am not sure what it is you want me to do. You want me to apologize because my parents stayed together, brought me up Catholic, instilled discipline and made sure I studied instead of hanging out at McDonalds? Is that what you mean by white privilege? If it is then I will let you know that on Thanksgiving day I have my kids sitting next to me right now doing physics. How personal do you want to get?

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

ah, the dismal science - that explains much. clearly this is not the place to come to find out what idea are percolating in ows. you shoudl ahve gotten out of the office and gone down to the park in the old days. then we could have had a real discussion - no dancing allowed in that park. it was great. do you like stephanie kelton - “So, let’s begin with the first lesson. What is money? All money exists as an IOU. It’s a debt. When we say, ‘I owe you,’ we mean two people are involved in every monetary relationship. The ‘I’ is the debtor. The ‘U’ is the creditor. I Owe You. IOUs are recorded in what we call the money of account. The money of account in Australia is the Australian dollar. The money of account in the U.S., the U.S. dollar. The money of account in Japan, the Japanese Yen. In Britain, the British pound. In Italy, the Euro. Do you see a difference? You will by the end of this talk.

(c. 6:21) “The money of account is something abstract, like a metre, a kilogram, a hectare. It’s not something you can touch or feel. It’s representational, something only a human could imagine. In any modern nation the money of account is chosen by the national government. MMT emphasises the state’s power over money. This is not something new. It dates back as far as Aristotle. You can find it in Adam Smith and in the work of John Maynard Keynes. I will read a brief quote from Keynes who said:

“‘The age of chartalist, or state money, was reached when the State claimed the right to declare what thing should answer as money of account. Today, all civilised money is, beyond the possibility of dispute, chartalist’—state money.

“A sovereign government defines the money of account. A sovereign government imposes taxes, fees, and other obligations to be paid to be paid to the state. A sovereign government decides what it will accept in payment to itself. And sovereign government chooses how it will make its own payments to others. Most governments in the world today choose their own unique money of account. And they issue their own unique currency. One nation, one money, is the rule in almost every corner of the world today. U.S. dollars, bills and coins. Mexican pesos, bills and coins. British pounds, notes and coins. Most governments also require that taxes be paid in a currency that the state has the exclusive power to issue. These currencies are sovereign money.

(c. 8:50) “As long as the state has the power to enforce its tax laws, the people will need the government’s money. The currency will have value. People will work to sell things—goods and services—to the government in order to get government money. Whatever the government accepts in payment to itself becomes the ultimate, ‘definitive,’ money in the economy. It is the only way to settle a debt. You must use government money. We can imagine in any economy a hierarchy of money. But not all money is created equal. The most acceptable money sits at the top of the pyramid. Those are the IOUs that everyone accepts and everyone must accept. Those are the IOUs that are ultimately needed to pay our debts. Those are the government’s IOUs. The rest of us can go in debt, issue IOUs, but our debt is not as good as government debt. It’s not as acceptable. It can’t be used to pay for things.

(c. 10:25) “In the U.S., the hierarchy looks like this: The government’s IOU—the United States dollar—sits at the top of the pyramid. It is a fiat currency. The United States government is the monopoly issuer of the U.S. dollar—the only entity on the planet that can legally create the currency. The U.S. government taxes in dollars. It spends in dollars. And it controls its own currency. Why is this important? What are the benefits of issuing your own currency? They are extraordinary.

(c. 11:19) “The government, when it issues its own currency, and goes into debt in that currency can always pay its debt, can never go broke, can never run out of money. It can afford anything that is for sale in that currency. It doesn’t need to borrow its own currency. And it can set its own interest rate. It does not have to pay what markets want. It does not become a victim to speculation, to bond vigilantes. It has additional policy space. It can do things for its economy and for its people that a government that does not have a sovereign currency cannot do.

(c. 12:18) “Think about what the hierarchy would look like under a gold standard. Many governments operated under gold or silver or both for some period of time in our world history. Under a gold standard, the government promises to convert its currency into gold. In that situation, what sits at the top of the pyramid is not the state’s currency, but the gold reserves. This means that the government must be careful about how much it spends. If it spends too much of its own currency, it can jeopardise the entire system because it may not be able to convert currency into gold as promised. You have to limit your spending and limit what you do with your policies. Governments operating under a gold standard do not have sovereign currency.

(c. 13:24) “In a similar way, a country that fixes its exchange rate to another country’s currency the way Argentina and Russia and others have done do not issue a sovereign currency. They must be careful about how much they spend. They must defend the reserves. If you promise to convert your currency into another country’s currency, you might go broke. You can run out. How do you get the other country’s currency? It requires trade surpluses to earn the other country’s currency. You become dependent on the rest of the world and their economic wellbeing to sustain your own wellbeing. The hierarchy in a country that operates fixed exchange rates places someone else’s currency at the top. You also lose control of your interest rate—something that’s crucial to retain control of—if a country is going to have a sustainable debt and full employment.”

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

ok, lets start over, since i have no idea what you mean by come out and play. seems to me you present very much a wsj viewpoint - on education and race. am i wrong here. do you blame the victim - do you refuse to answer questions in a straight forward manner? seems to me that you were not discussing things in the style of ows which annoyed me. ok, it is a problem i have - not sure why.

yea - looks like few people here - it is not so interesting or effective. and your reason for being here. and please don't show up at my house - you look big and mean! hey did you go to u of tulsa?

[-] -2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

I don't put people into groups or categories as it is ineffective. It can blind me from the what works and what doesn't. It is hard enough to figure out.

I am a economics prof at a small liberal arts college and I want to hear the ideas from OWS and gauge how the movement is going. I don't work for the Democrats as some on this board believe. New ideas and movements come from the ground up and historically, have come from vigorous debate. The Republicans have been very strong at this over the years and the Democrats prior to Obama were as well. So I wanted to see if there was anything brewing here.

No, my undergrad work was at Rochester,

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

have i already used the line that your response is nonsensical - i think so. i hate to repeat myself but sometimes it's called for. the only part of that comment that does make sense is INCORRECT! ows does appeal to voters - and non voters also - who are in the majority in this great country - and with good reason i might add. the people agree with me on these issues - you probably don't realize that - because of that education - right? did you read einstein - he wasn't such a good student so you can see how he feels the way he does about schooling. i would also advise - "dumbing us down" - john taylor gatto - he will help you learn and boy do you need help. now yes please - take your little balls and play with them by yourself at home. did i understand you correctly - were you calling me out? in what way - face to face debate? where - your house - put out your address maybe i am near by. cracker

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Let's go Flip, I don't hide behind some cowardly screen name. Yeah, you did a great job in the last election. The nation was really behind you.

Loser, come out and play. You better ban me quick from the 10 people who read this board.

[-] -2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Let's go Flip, I don't hide behind some cowardly screen name. Yeah, you did a great job in the last election. The nation was really behind you.

Loser, come out and play. You better ban me quick from the 10 people who read this board.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

well anyone in this racist country who does not understand white privilege is stupid. but i did not call you that - not this time anyway. it was a question. you also need to run your stats better but i am tired of your silliness on education you clearly are not well informed on many subjects - like i said the result of a good education. i suggest reading einstein's essay on education - here is a little quote from him - "The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education." Albert Einstein

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Can't debate, so you have to runaway.Oops, I made a mistake, so I will take my ball and leave. And you will call me names again.

And you wonder why the Occupy Movement doesn't appeal to the voters

Flip, you want to come out and play. I don't hide behind some silly screen name. Come on, big boy, or are you so cowardly that you have to hide?

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

high school graduation rates - 1940 - 50%, 1970 - 70%, 1990 - 74% and 2010 78.2%. sorry but beyond those numbers i do not have the time to educate you on white privilege or anything else really. got my hands full here - grandchildren and work - then i have to go play hockey! you have plenty of reading to do and i would suggest you start with chomsky (on any subject) then move to tim wise on race (lots of other good ones on the subject so take your pick) then of course diane on education.

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Yes, white's have a higher graduation rates that blacks and Latinos and Asians have the highest graduation rate of all of these. This is a cultural issue. SO how are you going to change the black and Latino focus on education.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

you clearly do not know what "white privilege" means - time to do some thinking - hard thinking. any idea what it means to be black in america? i give you arthur ashe - A reporter would later ask Ashe if living with AIDS was the hardest thing he had experienced. " 'No,' Arthur said. 'Being black in America was more difficult,' " - and keep in mind he was a very privileged black man. once again i will tell you - free your mind - read diane before you speak again on the subject. how can you make a judgement without knowing both sides of the argument?

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Why don't you tell me what you think white privilege is and I will respond since I appear to be getting it wrong.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

your answer is nonsensical - as usual. the country is less white now than in 1950 - no?? i hear you white boys complaining about that all the time - so if that is true and graduation rates are higher now - well you know what that means. so no education is not the answer - a simple matter of logic - no research needed. less educated population in 1965 and a better standard of living for the working class. a less wealthy country in 1965 than today and yet a better standard of living for the working class. try to explain that! ok, longer life today - so?? and lets be clear i did not call you any names - i asked a question. are you stupid? it is looking more and more like you are. that is often the result of a "good education" and einstein, chomsky, howard zinn and many others can explain to you if you can pick up your reading comprehension skills.

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

You have been calling me names since the start if this discussion , "don't we all love a mainstream educated cracker,"

You are calling me stupid??? Please explain to me how how 10% of a group can create such a significant move? The white population has been the majority of the group since 1950. The only way you can get such a significant move in the average is with the majority percentage increasing. And you are calling me stupid. The high school graduation rate has increased significantly since 1950 as has life expectancy. I am not sure what other indicator you want to look at.

So your prefer to read Chomsky over Einstein? Yeah, Einstein was useless He was not productive for society. People don't warm themselves and feed themselves the world over by what he did. No, they sure did not.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

are you stupid or simply a poor reader - was there anything in there about white rates? do these rates make you rethink your position on education as our answer - no i doubt it. are you capable of thought?

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

The country is majority white so it is obvious what is moving those rates - simple math. No need to digress and call me names. I haven't done that to you .

Yes education is the answer. You can show many different statistics how life has gotten better since 1950 - you picked the years - to today. Back in 1950 the average person in the US was expected to live to an average age of 68. That number today is 79. That is a 16% increase in life.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Those same injustices that play out on them now are the same ones that will be visiting us, and advancing unless we resist. Maybe then, we will be more akin in our views.

[-] -1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

And BTW, the information that you have given us here, and the neocon-like slant that you take, including the attempted discrediting info on Ms Goldstein is far more telling, (EDIT: and to me explains your raison d' etre for being here)....than it is informative.

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

You don't know what neocon means if you think this is a neocon slant. Neocons are concerned with foreign affairs more than domestic ones.

You are saying that you would listen to a person who is not trained in a science to a person who is? Ms. Goldstein worked for two different banks on Wall Street - so she washed out at one - as a trader at both. She did not work in banking or in research. So if you asking me would I listen to her before listening to trained researchers, I would pick the latter. So guilty as charged.

[-] 0 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

I agree, most neocons listen to "trained researchers" like Bernays, long before they would ever listen to altruistic people, like Ms Goldstein who care about the 99%. That's why we're here...right?!

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

BTW, I have no idea who Bernays is.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

wow - you don't know who bernays was - you don't really get white privilege - you complain about crimes against property and "blame the victim" - you attack "the culture" of the poor and oppressed. you have all the earmarks of an old rich white man - i can only assume you subscribe to the wall street journal. research and data my ass - didn't your poor irish immigrant parents teach you anything. or maybe they did not understand class solidarity. it is all very sad - too many of the lower class try to climb over their fellows and then "pull the ladder up" behind them. could that be you? no - you are trying to help those in need by telling them to - stay married, mind your teachers and ignore the growling in your stomach. that is how we end up in this place. where the "masters of the universe" pay our fearless politicians do help them get richer. and we have those who should know better in our midst - carrying water for the ruling classes - while cloaking all of it in terms of "science!"

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

So this really nothing but a power and political fight for you. Do you care about helping people and getting them jobs? So staying married doesn't work? Is this all about class? So far, I don't hear any solutions that have worked.

Since you want to talk about my Irish background, have you seen how Irish poverty has declined over the past 20 years. I am proud of that.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

yes it is about class - like we are the 99% - did you miss that one? this is about power - the ability of the "power elite" (c wright mills term - i am certain you have not read him) to grind the working classes into dust in order to enrich themselves. they have done this throughout history - they use quislings and scabs and race to confuse and divide us. they make the poor white southern crackers fight to keep the slave system in place. now how in hell does that make sense. and where do you stand in this fight - with the workers or with the owners? and have i seen what?? the movie "the wind that shakes the barley" - yea, what a good movie - no?

[Removed]

[-] -3 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Ask your boss.

[-] 2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Who do you think I work for? I will be honest with you.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Replying here. "I don't work for anybody."

YOU mean that YOU are just an independent partisan, who trashes Occupy & Occupiers on a regular basis. And NOT a paid hack trying to get us to listen to other paid, conservative, "data research[ers]", like Bernays. And then have us abandon, the kindred, intelligent, "altruistic" people in Occupy?!

Boy, that's a relief!

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

I don't know who your boss is. You're the one who is always pushing their conservative DNC-type ideology on here, not me. Jee....YOU should know!

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Man are you really off. I don't work for anybody. Talk about tilting at windmills

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

People who are looking for the truth focus on data and research, altruism has nothing to do with it.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

you are clearly not looking for the truth - or maybe you just don't know where to look! first we have this - Definition of NEOCONSERVATIVE

1 : a former liberal espousing political conservatism

secondly an intelligent person listens to what someone has to say - what is correct and incorrect about what they say! not the md or phd after their name. as for data and research how about backing up some of your neocon assertions with some!

[-] -1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Am I not listening to what you are saying?

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

not sure yet. i will let your responses tell me

[-] 0 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Gee, YOU 'reckon' that i have "defanged the occupy movement"?? Damn...now I feel like sh.t. You're a scream. lol Wait.... do you mean because I resisted having hacks like ...?... trying to bring Occupy into the Democratic Party?

YOU have bitched, criticized and denigrated Ms Goldstein unfairly on several of your comments which are aimed to have us instead be supportive of the current crowd that bears so much responsibility for the crap that is going on today. Most recently, you referred to Ms Goldstein as a "blogger." And in other comments you have inferred that she has little job experience.... less than 10 years on Wall St, if I remember correctly.

I have no idea how old Alexis is, but I am certain that she is closer to half my age than my actual age, so 10 years or near it, on Wall St is a long time for her, but not so much for me (damn!), unfortunately.....YOU?! ... Although I consider myself to be on the stick', graduating Columbia, magna cum laude, as Ms Goldstein has, is most likely beyond me.

Isn't Columbia an Ivy League school, and isn't magna cum laude, a minimal of a 3.8 average. I bet, that she wished that she hadn't partied so much her freshman year. Who knows, it coulda been suma if..... Oh yeah, and didn't your man, Obama go there too? Did he attend a special class there to learn about Friedman' economics, or was that in MA? Do you know?

I'll let you look up Alexis' job titles at WS, and the the tasks that they entailed. If she should happen to meet your strict partisan-like criteria, and you rightly, feel kinda humiliated, you can pull something else out of your behind to attack her, and the systemc change that most of us so desperately want... OK?

And hopefully, it would mean more to YOU if YOU had an epiphany, and realized that most people who want systemc change realize that the Democrats have betrayed us...too. Oh I forgot, YOU already know that.....

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Boy, I must have really hit a hot button on this one. I am only espousing the facts.

Yes,Goldstein is a blogger, she writes an opinion piece. She does not conduct research. Yes, she spent less than 10 years on Wall Street and she was with two firms as a trader. No, 10 years on Wall Street is not a long time. Wall Street is a meritocracy, the very best people go into the most profitable divisions. The worst people are fired. You don't jump firms.

Her story could be special. I said that you need to look at the data and research to find out what works and what doesn't. And you responded that I should read Goldstein - a opinion blogger - over researchers.

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Gee what a shock. More posing by conservative spinoza34.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 0 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

WOW, this is BIG Brent! YOU reckon that WE should "focus on data and research" to come to the PROPER conclusion, or one that will NOT threaten the corrupt status quo! And YOU think that we should ignore very intelligent "altruistic" people, like Ms Goldstein, who work hard to make this a better World! WOW (again...lol)!!

If YOU do NOT think we should listen to "altruistic" people, say like Hedges, Goldstein and Wolff, then WHO..WHAT "data and research[ers]" do YOU think we shoud listen to?! I hope it's NOT Bernays or Lee, but sadly I suspect that it is, after having read many of your insdious comments....;-(. Anyway those "research[ers]" as I'm sure YOU know championed public relations, propaganda, and the BIGGIE, 'mass psychology' to control the 'herd' right? Errr....I think that might be us, especially when we want the 1% to have the same justice that we have.

Don't tell me Brent, that you want us to follow an infamous diciple of Bernays, Goeballs?! Afterall unlike Ms Goldstein who you vehemently trashed, and who YOU criticized for "wash..[ing] out" of a bank, Goeballs never failed, well NOT until the end that is. Then he simply poisoned his loved ones, and himself before the Allied Troops came in. And he had a PhD too!

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Stalin thought of himself as altruistic as did Hitler.

What has Ms. Goldstein done besides write opinion pieces? She was a trader, not a banker. She was with two organization over her career of less than 10 years - why? Why wasn't she put into the most demanding jobs and kept there? If she is so intelligent as you say, why did two organization not think the same?

I could care less about the status quo. I am interested in reducing death and improving lives and the only way to do that is to see what works and what doesn't. Let me ask you, is Ferguson,MO better off today after they burned up businesses or after? Will those businesses rebuild? What is your and Ms. Goldstein's plan to stop the crime in Ferguson and bring this community out of poverty?

[-] 3 points by gsw (3107) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 3 years ago

To your quote below, as no reply is available, "You have defanged the occupy movement. Where are all the participants from 3 years ago. Where is GirlFriday, where is Puff 69? They left because of the censorship and disorganization". .... These seem to have gone because those here on the site succumbed to the human instinct to self divide into factions, as was forewarned by our nations founders, to beware to subdivide ourselves and our common interests into factions. Many wished to divide others from themselves, rather than to seek what United most initially, the shock at the corruption and turn of our country to not overcome most basic obstacles and institute the popular will, versus es the interests of those with the greatest power and influences, that their will supersedes that of the people

EDIT add too the encampments were as well disbursed via force as documented, and observed, people had to return to their livelihoods, etc. many seeds have been planted, and some awareness of inequality, though a path to a better distribution of resources is yet to be agreed to.

[-] 4 points by gsw (3107) from Woodbridge Township, NJ 3 years ago

I believe an answer can be as simple as some tax reforms, and political reforms

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

once again you show your ignorance - it is getting old. this site has very little to do with ows. you will have to look hard - especially since you read only right wing publications. like the ny times. ows is out there in the trenches - feeding people - stopping foreclosures and more. do not confuse what goes on here with ows.

[-] 1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

That's good coming from a conservative posing as a disgruntled liberal.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-readers-beware-our-site-has-been-taken-over-by/

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

jobs and livelihood are keys but education is not in the way you seem to imply. the pie is bigger now than when our grandparents came here - it is just divided up differently. my ancestors had no education beyond high school but had good jobs and a middle class life. that cannot be done today. even the educated jobs are being farmed out to india etc. as mlk said in 1968 - "It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard."

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

just so you know who "we" are here (since you don't seem to know the most basic facts of anything at all - a result of a poor education don't you think?) WE did not lose the election. maybe you lost the election to the gop but for sure ows did not. if anything the result shows that the public supports ows in fairly strong numbers.

i give you ralph nader - "I mean, my book, Unstoppable, is trying to get the public to focus on the areas where left-right agree, because the divide-and-rule strategy of the power structure is to get left-right focused on where they disagree. And they do disagree. But they agree on huge areas. They agree on civil liberties. They agree against empire. They agree to crack down on Wall Street and have Main Street over Wall Street. They agree on juvenile justice reform and, increasingly, prison reform. And they certainly agree on the giant job-exporting, corporate-managed trade agreements and the tax escapes of companies like General Electric and Apple. I mean, there’s a lot of agreement there." - i would add they agree on health care.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Replying here. So first Brent, YOU aggresively trash Ms Goldstein for being inept, and NOW you proclaim "the occupy movement has defanged itself.." Gee, that would be depressing if people here thought that you were truthful, OR that YOU didn't have ulterior motives, and were ready to give us some 'manageable' conservative alternatives. I bet YOU are ready.

So tell me AGAIN, if YOU really believe that this struggle is dead, WHY are YOU here?! Especially with no follow-up oratory from YOU, as to whether, Occupy has morhed..... OR people who once were in slumber have now awakened, OR whether other "altruistic"" groups have emerged, and possibly coalesced with Occupy..... WHY the HELL are YOU here Brent?!

That's right, I forgot, the reason that you are here is because you are bummed, and you miss your former peers, and probably hoping they will return. Were they, neocons / neoliberals... too? Consequently, is it more difficult for YOU to push your more conservative agenda along? Just wondering.

[-] 1 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

You have defanged the occupy movement. Where are all the participants from 3 years ago. Where is GirlFriday, where is Puff 69? They left because of the censorship and disorganization of the movement.

I am here to see if there is any real movement to solve problems, not just steal power. When you back a blogger, who has very little experience, over real data. Them I see the answer. No wonder we lost so badly to the Republicans in the midterms.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Replying here although I'm busy and will follow this up again.

YOU are NOT here to have a "discussion," but rather to preach, criticize, divert and/or cajole with the purpose of making this movement more manageable or to defang it. From my very first comment to you which was thoughtful, knowing full-well that I did not have all the answers.... YOU replied with a KNOW-IT-ALL, obnoxious, f...ing attitude, and you took it as an opportunity to advance your far more conservative agenda, by not criticizing what was said so much, but rather like that other poster on here... YOU (very quickly) TRASHED one of the people who has done so much for this struggle, Ms Goldstein. And then YOU pushed your assinine opinions, that you wanted us to take as FACT....on us. I'm aware of that tactic.

[-] 0 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

With all due respect, the occupy movement has defanged itself; how many people don't participate on this site any more. Where is GirlFriday or Puff. They actually knew there stuff.

If you don't like me and don't want to have a discussion then don't respond. Many autocrats don't want discussion either but just want a movement to gain power. And there is always the use of personal attacks and curse words, very Stalinistic of you.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

"Stalin," "Hitler" and now YOU have depended on mass psychology to securtitize and advance your place in life by controling the "herd".... by making ANY and ALL opposition to it impotent. Just from your trashing of Ms Goldstein, and from looking at your past comments, it is easy to tell that YOU are not here for good reasons, but YOU are just a tadbit more sophisticated (that's a compliment!) than most trolls, who probably like YOU consider "data and research" people (even if they are paid and corrupt) superior to "altruistic" people working hard to improve our World.

[-] -2 points by BrentWeirick81 (24) 3 years ago

Have I attacked you or anybody else on this board? I am attempting to have a discussion to find a solution. I am not sure what herd you are talking about. I have yet to hear any proposals from any person on this board that is empirically based and shown to work.

BTW, I lived the Watts riots personally, twice, so I am very familiar as to what happens to these communities after Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and the TV cameras leave. The make-up of the police force is a non-factor. Jobs and livelihood are keys and they come from education.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

right on!

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 3 years ago

hey white boy - you need to do some reading - first about class then about race. my family is separate and non religious and doing just fine - it has to do with money.i come from a white upper middle class background and that is the difference. anyone who can read should know that. the is about white power and privilege - google this woman and educate yourself.

"Rosa Rivera-McCutchen participated in a panel discussion about the Common Core and testing at Public Education on October 11 at the Brooklyn New School. She gave a powerful presentation about race, power, and privilege." - while you are at it look up tim wise - you really need to widen your reading if you want to hang here at ows. here is a bit from timmy! -

"“And most of all, the reflex to deny that there is anything racial about the lens through which we typically view law enforcement; to deny that being white has shaped our understanding of policing and their actions in places like Ferguson, even as being white has had everything to do with those matters. Racial identity shapes the way we are treated by cops, and as such, shapes the way we are likely to view them. As a general rule, nothing we do will get us shot by law enforcement: not walking around in a big box store with semi-automatic weapons (though standing in one with an air rifle gets you killed if you’re black); not assaulting two officers, even in the St. Louis area, a mere five days after Mike Brown was killed; not pointing a loaded weapon at three officers and demanding that they—the police—”drop their fucking guns;” not committing mass murder in a movie theatre before finally being taken alive; not proceeding in the wake of that event to walk around the same town in which it happened carrying a shotgun; and not killing a cop so as to spark a “revolution,” and then leading others on a two month chase through the woods before being arrested with only a few scratches.

To white America, in the main, police are the folks who help get our cats out of the tree, or who take us on ride-arounds to show us how gosh-darned exciting it is to be a cop. We experience police most often as helpful, as protectors of our lives and property. But that is not the black experience by and large; and black people know this, however much we don’t. The history of law enforcement in America, with regard to black folks, has been one of unremitting oppression. That is neither hyperbole nor opinion, but incontrovertible fact. From slave patrols to overseers to the Black Codes to lynching, it is a fact. From dozens of white-on-black riots that marked the first half of the twentieth century (in which cops participated actively) to Watts to Rodney King to Abner Louima to Amadou Diallo to the railroading of the Central Park 5, it is a fact. From the New Orleans Police Department’s killings of Adolph Archie to Henry Glover to the Danziger Bridge shootings there in the wake of Katrina to stop-and-frisk in places like New York, it’s a fact. And the fact that white people don’t know this history, have never been required to learn it, and can be considered even remotely informed citizens withoutknowing it, explains a lot about what’s wrong with America. Black people have to learn everything about white people just to stay alive. They especially and quite obviously have to know what scares us, what triggers the reptilian part of our brains and convinces us that they intend to do us harm. Meanwhile, we need know nothing whatsoever about them. We don’t have to know their history, their experiences, their hopes and dreams, or their fears. And we can go right on being oblivious to all that without consequence. It won’t be on the test, so to speak.

We can remain ignorant to the ubiquity of police misconduct, thinking it the paranoid fever dream of irrational “race-card” playing peoples of color, just like we did after the O.J. Simpson verdict. When most of black America responded to that verdict with cathartic relief—not because they necessarily thought Simpson innocent but because they felt there were enough questions raised about police in the case to sow reasonable doubt—most white folks concluded that black America had lost its collective mind. How could theypossibly believe that the LAPD would plant evidence in an attempt to frame or sweeten the case against a criminal defendant? A few years later, had we been paying attention (but of course, we were not), we would have had our answer. It was then that the scandal in the city’s Ramparts division broke, implicating dozens of police in over a hundred cases of misconduct, including, in one incident, shooting a gang member at point blank range and then planting a weapon on him to make the incident appear as self-defense. So putting aside the guilt or innocence of O.J,, clearly it was not irrational for black Angelenos (and Americans) to give one the likes of Mark Fuhrman side-eye after his own racism was revealed in that case.

I think this, more than anything, is the source of our trouble when it comes to racial division in this country. The inability of white people to hear black reality—to not even know that there is one and that it differs from our own—makes it nearly impossible to move forward. But how can we expect black folks to trust law enforcement or to view it in the same heroic and selfless terms that so many of us apparently do? The law has been a weapon usedagainst black bodies, not a shield intended to defend them, and for a very long time.

In his contribution to Jill Nelson’s 2000 anthology on police brutality, scholar Robin D.G Kelley reminds us of the bill of particulars.* As Kelley notes, in colonial Virginia, slave owners were allowed to beat, burn, and even mutilate slaves without fear of punishment; and throughout the colonial period, police not only looked the other way at the commission of brutality against black folks, but were actively engaged in the forcible suppression of slave uprisings and insurrections. Later, after abolition, law enforcement regularly and repeatedly released black prisoners into the hands of lynch mobs and stood by as their bodies were hanged from trees, burned with blowtorches, body parts amputated and given out as souvenirs. In city after city, north and south, police either stood by or actively participated in pogroms against African American communities: in Wilmington, North Carolina, Atlanta, New Orleans, New York City, Akron and Birmingham, just to name a few. In one particularly egregious anti-black rampage in East St. Louis, Illinois, in 1917, police shot blacks dead in the street as part of an orgy of violence aimed at African Americans who had moved from the Deep South in search of jobs. One hundred and fifty were killed, including thirty-nine children whose skulls were crushed and whose bodies were thrown into bonfires set by white mobs. In the 1920s, it is estimated that half of all black people who were killed by whites, were killed by white police officers.

But Kelley continues: In 1943 white police in Detroit joined with others of their racial compatriots, attacking blacks who had dared to move into previously all-white public housing, killing seventeen. In the 1960s and early ’70s police killed over two dozen members of the Black Panther Party, including those like Mark Clark and Fred Hampton in Chicago, asleep in their beds at the time their apartment was raided. In 1985, Philadelphia law enforcement perpetrated an all-out assault on members of the MOVE organization, bombing their row houses from state police helicopters, killing eleven, including five children, destroying sixty-one homes and leaving hundreds homeless

[-] 1 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 3 years ago

I think it was a poor bluff for the establishment to bid

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

After all of the "official" statements - and - not rushed statements - as they took forever to even begin to talk to the public - that contradict what the prosecutor presented and then released in a statement to the public - yep - there is no wonder that the National Guard was called out in advance - knowing that there was going to be no indictment. They knew damn well that they were forwarding a great injustice - and so far have been lucky at the mildness of the resulting justified protest riot. To bad though that the riot was not done to inflict more damage to the betraying authorities - what? only one cop car destroyed? too bad the police department wasn't burnt down as well as the courthouse.

[-] 1 points by MattHolck0 (3867) 3 years ago

I guess all thee people have to focus is a grand jury excuse #ferguson

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Murderer Darren Wilson resigns from Ferguson Police Department - without severance pay.

Hmmmmmm - really?

No severance pay?

WHASSsssup with that?

I mean yeah - there was no way in hell that he could stick around.

But...............

His besties in the department sent him off without severance?

[-] 2 points by pigeonlady (284) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

Just FYI, the testimony of Wilson, unquestioned, was 70%+ of the determination criteria. Per certain coverage breakdown of same.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

4 hours of uninterrupted ramblings of a killer. What a spectacular grand jury hearing - Hey?

When the rule of law fails to protect the population from murderous police. What protection remains

[-] 0 points by pigeonlady (284) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

I think the academy gives courses on evading and shifting responsibility. The whole white guy with gun whimpering thing is just SSOOOO moving, we HAVE to let him go, he's married now so it means he's a nice guy.... Seen it. Not new. What protection remains? Our wits, our integrity, our will to do right, our refusal to let corruption wallow in its own 'power' while abusing and destroying those inconvenient to the hierarchy and its agendas, and our public discourse on the injustices of this our country. And each other. Hearts, kids.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

And geez - what a performance - Hey? - I mean they only had several weeks to rehearse and all.

[-] 2 points by trashyharry (3082) from Waterville, NY 3 years ago

Murder with Impunity in Ferguson,MO.Right now,Truckers have blocked off Canal St.in Lower Manhattan and Occupy protesters are in the streets-about 1000 marching in Lower Manhattan,and 2000 in Upper East Side.No cops seem to be around as yet.Solidarity!

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

[ edit ] I thought it was a very nice public relations move - for the prosecutor to suggest stand your ground laws as a means for public redress in such situations. Don't you? I mean surly they won't put officer Darren back out on the streets of Ferguson - but you know he might go there on his own sometime - so - now the public has been given a green light by the prosecutor to take care of it on their own if they should in any way fear for their lives.

edit-> Though I am thinking that perhaps the Ferguson Police Department may not be as happy as the public may be about the prosecutors advice about the stand your ground law remedy.

[-] -3 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Although I suspect that the Grand Jury got it right, there is a deep underlying cause to consider regardless. One that has less to do with race and more to do with human nature.

Socioeconomics 101: We were well on our way to eradicating bitter racism 40 years ago. The fantastic progress we made as a nation coincided with a gradual transfer of wealth from rich to poor which took place following the Great Depression.

Blacks, who had always been at a HUGE disadvantage in terms of income and net worth, were finally beginning to catch up with the majority. For this reason, the underlying racial tensions were subsiding. I'm not discounting the work of Martin Luther King, other activists or other factors but the bottom line is that when human beings share in the equity of prosperity and security, relations improve. That's just the way it is in general. Basic human nature.

Unfortunately, that gradual transfer of wealth from rich to poor began to reverse in the late 70s. Here we are nearly 40 years later with a near record high concentration of wealth once again.

Unfortunately, a good 75% or so out there are literally incapable of understanding how racial steering, de-industrialization, and other factors which ultimately concentrate wealth actually cause those at a disadvantage to judge others by their skin color. They also fail to understand WHY those at a disadvantage tend to become less motivated and more hostile. Instead, they assume that what appears on the surface and the underlying cause are one in the same.

The rest of us know better.

All that progress shot to Hell because of greed.

It will be our downfall.

Update: We can legitimately disagree over the Grand Jury results or any other issue but it's truly pathetic that my haters, two or more of whom sign on using multiple IDs, are now marking down the majority of my comments while marking up others in the threads just to spite me.

Aside from the cause which is very important to me, I don't give a rat's ass about popularity. Otherwise, I would have changed my tune a long time ago.

So masquerade and mark away haters. It will NEVER phase me.

By the way Russell Brand is still a disgusting hypocrite pig and his 'don't vote' campaign is still horrible advice. It may even be calculated.

Next.

[-] 6 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

For one = No the grand jury did not get it right. They did not because they were not presented the facts - they were presented with a construct to not only muddy the waters but to also place false evidence before them. One glaring lie - was - the distance Michael Brown's Body was from Darrin Wilson's squad when Wilson completed shooting him to death. The police say 35 feet away - but - measurements taken show that Michael Brown was near 140 feet away.

For Two - Michael Brown may or may not have 1st been shot while at the drivers side window - at which point he ran away.

For three - running away unarmed - he was continued to be shot at by Wilson.

For four - having run considerable distance away from Wilson and his squad car - he stops and turns around - nearly 140 feet away.

For five - being unarmed and at a fair distance away from the armed officer - he was not an immediate threat to that officer - and yet the officer did not wait for back-up to arrive - but instead advanced firing at Michael Brown until he was dead.

As for the rest of your comment - yes - we were making progress on equal rights in many places - but - the south has always been an unwilling participant.

[-] 4 points by Nevada1 (5843) 3 years ago

Police State

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Want to get away with murder? Join your local police force - many shooting opportunities available in areas near you - psychopaths gladly accepted - there are many benefits to being a cop - so see your local area recruiter NOW.

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Are you suggesting that well documented and publicized evidence that you have access to was withheld by the authorities from the Grand Jury and the Federal Government as well? Wouldn't that be illegal and easily proven? Who took the measurements? What were they based on? Was the Brown family attorney involved? Why did the Brown family hire him? To bring their son back or to file a multi-million dollar lawsuit? If it's the later, then isn't it possible that he and the 'experts' who work for his law firm spun a 'fact' or two for the public in order to prepare a multi-million dollar lawsuit? Do any of the County or Federal examiners see it his way? Why would Michael Brown stop and turn around? Was Michael Brown the big Teddy bear that he has been made out to be by the Brown family and their attorney or is there some truth to the claim that he robbed a convenient store just moments earlier? With tens of thousands of officers assaulted every year, many on video, isn't it possible that Darrin Wilson was one of them?

[-] 3 points by grapes (5052) 3 years ago

The racial makeup of the grand jury was not reflective of the community of Ferguson which has jurisdiction at the scene of the incident. Hence, injustice might have crept in by having majority white jurors on the jury.

I contend that the whole race thing was an idiotic invention of the northern European colonizers but if race still looms large in people's minds, we must take race into account.

The grand jury having the proper racial makeup can get the proper racial Experience on the jury. Some whites can be so far out of touch with police brutality because they have never been on the receiving ends of the police's nightsticks and systemic racial bias. Justice is to be controlled by peers, as established in England centuries ago.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Maybe the officer fired more shots than necessary. Thats a possibility that I wonder about myself but if there was any assault or struggle for the gun, then I'm willing to give the officer the benefit of the doubt. It's a tough and dangerous job that simply must be done.

I'll never know what it's like to be black but I am a bit shady looking. I have been for most of my adult life. I have been treated unfairly 3 times that I recall but that is out of at least 50 stops. In general, I have found that cops are friendly and respectful unless you give them an attitude.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Maybe the officer fired more shots than necessary. Thats a possibility that I wonder about myself but if there was any assault or struggle for the gun, then I'm willing to give the officer the benefit of the doubt.

The following may help you with your questions on the killing.

The complete guide to every public eyewitness interview in the shooting death of Mike Brown

Why exactly did the police lie for 108 days about how far Mike Brown ran from Darren Wilson?

[-] 1 points by grapes (5052) 3 years ago

Did you consider that you were likely stopped by different police department(s) than the one of Ferguson? There are definitely good AND bad police departments but generally the police have a chip on their shoulder and carry an often deadly attitude.

Why was Governor Jay Nixon so adamant about not having Robert McCulloch replaced by a special prosecutor when McCulloch's record as a state prosecutor and his having familial connections to law enforcements were questioned?

[-] 2 points by grapes (5052) 3 years ago

Officer Darren Wilson did NOT have knowledge of the prior incident of Michael Brown's taking cigarillos from a convenience store, according to his Chief's public statement. The timing of the release of the convenience store video smacked of a blatant attempt to protect officer Wilson by seeding the public discourse.

Michael Brown having been shot and getting more bullets whizzing by probably turned around to surrender by raising his arm and gesturing for a stop.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Officer Darren Wilson did NOT have knowledge of the prior incident of Michael Brown's taking cigars from a convenient store, according to his Chief's public statement.

Truth and yet what was presented to the grand jury - as told to the public by the prosecutor - was that he had heard a report and had received a description on a radio alert.

[-] 1 points by grapes (5052) 3 years ago

habeas corpus. Prosecutor Must release proof that officer Darren Wilson indeed had knowledge of the cigarillo incident. Otherwise, it becomes a case of jury tampering.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

So - do you think that they have had enough time to Dr. up some electronic records of calls that were never received and alerts that were never issued?

[-] 1 points by grapes (5052) 3 years ago

Somebody always knows. Even the NSA could not keep secrets forever. When and if it leaks out that they have embarked on creating fraudulent evidence to extricate themselves, they will be charged with the willful obstruction of justice. Mind you, sometimes the proper exercise of justice in a court of law is far more preferable to the peoples' justice as sodomized Gadhafi had demonstrated. "Things happen!" - Donald Rumsfeld.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

The Prosecutor ( scuse - I meant Wilson's Defender - ummm wait a sec).

1st did you see the announcement?

If so - did you note the part where Wilson's defender......shit....no sorry . . . the er um er prosecutor (???) noted that the people have the stand your ground law ( did he want to go on to say "for godsakes" ?) - prior to going on to say that police have a greater latitude - so basically - I Guess - what he was trying to convey - was - if you as normal citizens can kill someone because you are afraid of them - then how much more latitude to do the same do the police have - afraid or not? - and so ( just what the fuck are we even doing here in the 1st place?) what are we even doing here? Myself I got the notion (from following this whole pharse - scuse I meant process) that the public would be better off following their own course concerning this incident and "stand your ground" in preventing further such incidents in their community.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago
[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33315) from Coon Rapids, MN 3 years ago

Was he a big ol teddy bear? Perhaps around family. Could he be intimidating? You bet - you have no doubt seen the surveillance video from the store that he did not rob - but where he stole some cigars.

The point of the matter is - the killing was not justifiable.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

Right...suddenly blacks had access to upward mobility, what happens? Good paying union jobs go overseas. Not everyone can be an engineer or biotech worker. Some people just don't have that type of brain (me being one). I think to say that you can only get somewhere in this country by being a math whiz ( especially when are education system can't back that up) is just shortsighted. One can't justify that all others deserve to be in the new service sector making $8.00 an hour nor that it is ok to outsource anything not math related. The American dream was that average joe could share in the markets...that there wasn't a technology caste system...everyone could find their niche and achieve according to their talents and skills and be paid decently; Not that we all had to be specialized math whizzes to get anywhere. It seems at every opportunity if corporations can offshore something cheap they will do it...so long term even these jobs aren't safe and those math whizzes paid even more for a useless degree. Outsourcing is hurting all of us...it's narrowing our choices...lowering our standard of living, creating a caste system, and limiting opportunity. While I still don't think it is ok to turn to crime...I have insight on why someone would. The service sector is unsatisfying. It is dehumanizing. In fact our entire working mindset needs reform. We have a definite master...servant relationship that has been forming as more and more jobs go away. An 'I own you mentality' between not just boss and employee but also as customers become more and more frustrated with their lack of choices ...they take it out on those employees. So people in those jobs just get railed in every way possible. In every way possible they are given the message they are nothing...they have only one purpose to run a treadmill of struggle and make someone else who doesn't care about their life or family ...stinking rich. That scenario builds real rage - add to that the stress and struggle of trying to live and even pay for an apartment on these wages. Also don't forget the lack of set schedule in retail makes upward mobility and scheduling classes more difficult. Diversity in America means that dreams can form from many paths...not just looking through a microscope ( literally and figuratively). Humanities fields need to pay more and be valued alongside technology. There are more of us but that shouldn't devalue what these fields contribute. Corpirate justification for employee supply and demand is only happening as they outsource and kill the union. I've said it before and now again...retail and chain employees MUST unionize ! I almost have to laugh too when I hear politicians talk about churning out stem kids like they are cogs ( sure flood those fields too see what hapoens to once good paying jobs) but there is also the fact that they skim over all the people that didn't get the benefit of a stem education like they don't exist...like a failed experiment that is already doomed...dough that didn't rise and cream that remains at the bottom...well I guess we will just become invisible and go away right? The fact is we exist we are out here and our lives matter too. We are seeing the fallout of being ignored for too long...and the inner city is the canary in the coal mine. They feel it hardest but we are all feeling the frustration. It is building. You can't ignore the resentment factor when people know cops are making such large salaries in comparison. I don't even know if deepdown it is racial. I think there you have people hired to protect and who are part of a privledged caste system taking place that don't understand how difficult it has become to get by. Desperate people often take desperate measures...they take more risks when they have less to lose or live for. The police unfortunately get the brunt of this rage when a life starts falling down in this broken system. When you have such a gap..it goes beyond racial. I think people can't always put a name to what is happening with our system...they look to blame they often look to race . Right now everyone has gone tribal. Everyone- black white and spanish ( "where are your people from") . I feel the rage is misdirected - It belongs on our government and wallstreet...not on each other. Powers that be love the division...it keeps the focus off them . I wonder what the banks are up to while the corporate media is covering this in depth. Cause hey...they never cover Occupy protests like this...we are invisible. Suddenly they are on your side? ( think about it). The media blacked out Occupy...something that could lead to economic equality. Ignored blatantly. Their backers will ignore anything to do with outsourcing...you will never hear these words.

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

As usual, I agree with most of what you say. But I don't think service is dehumanizing. I was a cook for years, then a pizza deliveryman for years. About 15 total. There is honor in every legitimate contribution to society from shoveling crap to pushing a pen.

The foreign outsourcing has been a huge problem for the middle, working, and lower classes. But another huge problem has been the constant transfer of jobs from industrial areas to rural or less industrial areas. Developers, and local officials from less industrial areas have been working together for many years to woo corporations and some smaller businesses in order to UNNECESSARILY transfer jobs from cities like Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, and Youngstown, to various cities in Texas, Indiana, Florida, Colorado and others.

These transfers have never been necessary to maintain profit. They have been made to INCREASE profit and develop rural areas unnecessarily making developers and investors richer often paving over farmland in the process. Meanwhile, a wake of destruction is left behind in the formerly industrial areas.

This along with the general concentration of wealth and racial concentrations that increase as blacks suffer economically has ruined the spirites of millions transforming a number of major cities and suburbs in the process.

Ferguson is a perfect example.

It didn't have to be this way.

Greed kills.

[-] 6 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

Absolutely it is the greed. Wealth just keeps getting more and more consolidated at the tops of these corporations...just when you think they can't get richer ...they buy up more companies ( once competitors in the market)...they do not trickle this down to employees. So while some ceo's earn an employees yearly salary in a day and in some cases hours...the empliyee would need to work 100 hours on his payrate to afford the average rent. I think it was Bill Moyers who did an excellent diagram and chart of this problem it is not the work itself that is degrading...it is this new control and consolidated ownership that is. It doesn't feel good to work hard and still be broke (even working two full time jobs and still struggle)...that is totally degrading and a very unfair and unjust society. And while that person working 80-100 hours per week pays a huge chunk back to the government...you could drive a truck through the engineered loopholes that ceo's and corpirations get if they pay anything at all after headquartering offshore. All work is valuable...and has honor...the wirking class are the backbone of this nation. Ceo's set trends and make themselves wealthy while contributing very little of that percent back to workers or the common good. We can access those percentages. And the math shows the greed...the numbers don't lie. Animal Farm ...ceo pigs at the helm. They don't need the loopholes or breaks. They just can't help themselves. They hold our jobs for ransom demanding benefits or threaten to leave and move where they can get them. It is a tactic that works...holding cities hostage. After their job killing consolidation limuted opportunity and options. It is forced reliance.

[-] 3 points by grapes (5052) 3 years ago

Adam Smith: "The annual labor of every nation is the fund which originally supplies it with all the necessaries and conveniences of life which it annually consumes, and which consist always either in the immediate produce of that labor, or in what is purchased with that produce from other nations."

Labor creates value. Usurpation of the fruits of labor by the management class is robbery which violates the Ten Commandments. The management class and/or its rich owners are the Criminals. Fire and brimstones are the Biblical redress but I love the mink outer covering of the rich so the Gadhafi/mink treatment without damaging that beautiful covering should work well. Labor deserves respect.

[-] 0 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Absolutely dead on. The only thing I want to add is that your points apply almost entirely also when corporations relocate operations or headquarters to conservative run states and cities that offer ridiculous tax breaks and subsidies in order to woo those corporations. Of course, it works for them because business revenue drawn in from the entire market whether regional, national, or international is suddenly redirected giving the illusion of legitimate growth when in fact, it's nothing but outright theft of jobs and revenue. Meanwhile, the cities and states on the losing end suffer terribly because many of their middle and upper class residents move away in order to follow the jobs. But they still have the complex infrastructure and suburbs designed to accommodate more industry and residents to maintain regardless. In addition, they suddenly find themselves burdened with the needs of an expanding lower class, those who suffer but simply could not afford to relocate or chose not to leave their home cities and states. As if this weren't bad enough, they also find themselves overrun with gang activity which flourishes in de-industrialized areas.

The point is this. It is almost never necessary to develop rural areas because their populations are less dense to begin with. However, it is vital that long established industrial areas REMAIN industrial. Otherwise, they suffer HORRIBLE consequences.

It is reckless, immoral, unpatriotic, and irresponsible to woo business, jobs, and revenue away from long established industrial areas in order to unnecessarily develop your own within the same country.

It is reckless, immoral, unpatriotic, and irresponsible to relocate your business, jobs, and revenue away from long established industrial areas unnecessarily simply to increase profits.

It causes poverty, hardship, racism, gang activity, violent crime, and DEATH.

God damn those who do so unnecessarily with no regard for the wake of destruction left behind.

GOD DAMN THEM.

and shame on the idiot masses who refuse to punish them for doing so.

SHAME ON THEM.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

I think too with all the energy it must take being in gangs and keeping up with that activity...it is too bad it is not used for good and to do things that would benefit all who live in these communities. Political activism, sprucing up neighborhoods etc. Gangs are another form of greed and they too are holding the poor hostage for their own self advancement...no different than ceos.

[-] -2 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

I was with you until the last line. It applies only to those who rob or terrorize for material gain. Not those who rob or terrorize to survive, lash out, or support a drug habit.

There you go DNCheadquarters, spinoza34, SerfingUSA, flip, shule, and turbocharger.

Mark mark mark!

[-] 3 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

And another sector of society would say I'm crazy, likening ceo's to gang members...but I really think they aren't very different at all. Some gang members kill just to kill or indoctrinate (at least ceo's have an agenda to make money) some gang members kill people for fun...and both kill unintentionally as collateral damage. I don't give a shit about gang hardships...nor do I give a shit that a ceo has a family to feed or shareholders to please. Hurting others to survive or to thrive is wrong...and one in the same....greed. My husband often says to me...let it say on my gravestone " here I lay, dead and broke, but I never screwed over or hurt anyone"...that is something we should all be proud to have on our markers. Let me not leave behind a golden umbrella stand nor a trail of bodies or broken people but a legacy of truth and justice. If I am a (self) made man...let me make myself into someone with integrity. The rest will fall away on death...integrity (which includes empathy and kindness) is the only true legacy. Survival of the fittest is an animal instinct...a weasel is clever at this as well. To rise above that base instinct and show empathy...is the intelligence that makes us human.

[-] 1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Basic morality is simple and true character is inspiring but human nature is what it is. It will remain true for the masses under any and all circumstances.

Mass hardship causes mass conflict.

Deindustrialization and concentration of of wealth cause mass hardship.

The very concept of extreme personal wealth causes all of the above.

[-] 3 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

I would argue humans evolved the trait of compassion in order to live in groups...which would never be possible without sharing. Most group species have to work together...socialism is a trait in nature. It helped us survive as a species. Mass hardship causes mass resolution. It never stands. ...people won't stand for unfairness. People who steal from the group are always looked upon unfavorably. We are always weighing and measuring aren't we. What other species can do math so well? We don't use our teeth to solve it...we use the group. Hello occupy... what do you think? ( as well as our communication skills to inform the group...we can't help it...it's our nature)

If anything the global economy is going to bite corporate america in their asses. Its so great to know that while they try to cheat and undercut what is fair ...they are quickly pissing off a global mass of people. It is only a matter of time. America was isolated and being fairly fair... wasn't too concerned with world unfairness problems. Well ...at least until now it is our problem too.

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

My guess is that compassion is a basic instinct that either develops further into adulthood or regresses depending on parenting, environmental factors, and other circumstances. Gang members for example live in crowded groups but they are anything but compassionate in general. They are the exact opposite.

My belief is that their natural instincts to care for others began to regress with parental neglect, economic hardships, injustice, and/or perception of injustice. All of which result from deindustrialization. The corrupt influence of gangster rap is another factor. Another byproduct of deindustrialization as well.

None of this is a rip on blacks. It's a rip on those responsible. Primarily those who deindustrialize and concentrate wealth. Both of which cause economic hardship, bitterness, parental neglect, ect.

If the historical tables would have been turned from day one leaving whites at a disadvantage, then it would have been a black cop shooting a white teenager and whites rioting in Ferguson.

I would be thrilled to see corporate America fall. It will eventually along with the rest of society. Someday, many years from now, entire cities will burn to the ground.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

Hmm...are you saying greed and stealing and killing are ok so long as you are disenfranchised or have a dysfunctional family? While I agree with the injustice of our economy...I agree with Martin Luther King: poverty is not just a racial issue. I mean I think I really have to take issue with that notion. I live in a mixed race community. It is a lower income city. While the poor whites are pulling together to clean their parks and develop arts and community ...the blacks and spanish are forming gangs and robbing us. At the grocery store, the blacks and spanish often have two carriages courtesy of food stamps. I see it everyday. An elderly woman with three items. Spanish and blacks with two carriages each overflowing with meat. And for people so hard up...I see the same thing at the mall. There seems to be no shortage of resources if you are ethnic and have kids especially. Whites need not apply for programming. At the unemployment office I know many white people who are blatantly ignored and given a hard time by the ethnic people who make a lot of money working there through affirmative action hiring. They deliberatly screw up the paperwork give them misinformation and stall their benefits. If you are a poor white and trying to get resources there is out and out racism. If you fill out a college aid form and check of the ethnic boxes there is much more money available but they put it in the schools hands who literally check your skin color in person so you can't lie. There is a lot of handicapping going on for poor whites right now. Noone wants to talk about it and there is an attitude of it is your turn now. I stand against injustice and inequality for all disenfranchised people. To say there aren't poor whites or that there aren't resources that have been created for minorities is not correct. Minorities are focused on the police because they want to commit crimes unabated...like wallstreet does. I have never seen them pull together like this to stop the generational crime and violence in their neighborhoods...instead they are angry at police for stopping them. I'm not going to be pc about this. I live in a high crime area. At a certain point we are going to have to say it is not ok to rob your neighbors cause they are white . Or that not every white person has privledge or resources or happy family backgrounds. Minorities don't want to have these conversations. So as much as I can see the areas of inequality that need to be addressed there is also a lot of hypocrisy that needs to be addressed as well. My community could be great. People are really trying hard...it is time for minorities to stop the man child thugs for wrecking it for the rest of us. Drugs and violence. Protecting their market. They usually live with their twelve year old girlfriends they knock up who live in section 8 housing. They abuse the girl. They use her food stamps. They work the system. Use her apartment as a party house. The kid is raised by a child in this environment. If you want to talk about equality let's have some conversations about minority culture. When is going to change?

[-] 5 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

My point was only that human nature can't be wished, regulated, educated, or inspired away. We are biological machines. Nothing more. This remains true in spite of our diversity. In spite of the ability some have to rise above their own circumstances.

The best possible formula for a peaceful, civil, just, and compassionate society begins with reasonable resource and wealth distribution. Without it, there is no chance for the masses to relate without serious complications. To hope otherwise is like hoping that a pack of starving dogs won't fight over a steak.

If you were to take two identical litters and raise them in separate environments, one litter safe, properly fed, housed, cared for and socialized, the other left to fend for themselves in a junkyard, you would end up with two entirely different dog societies (sorry, the proper phrase escapes me). There would be some diversity within each group but the more fortunate group would be more tame, more trusting, and easier to train. Their offspring would fare better as well right from birth. You could repeat this experiment a thousand times and get the same result every single time.

We humans just love to make ourselves out to be something more than biological machines. Above the animal behavior the wild is known for. But we aren't. Like dogs, we are programmed primarily by our environmental circumstances. Like dogs, we do have natural instincts to care for our young but even those instincts are effected by our own experiences. Not only in terms of method but also desire and devotion.

When the resources and wealth of any society are concentrated too heavily, or the rugs pulled out from many because of deindustrialization, different groups are created. The cultures, trends, and behaviors develop in relation to the circumstances of each group. From the way they behave at the age of two to the way they relate to others at the age of 18 to the way they work (if they even bother) to the way they raise and teach their children to the way they grow older to their state of mind near death and everything in between.

Damn right minority (poor minority) culture is an issue. Most of the fantastic progress made in America from the 50s to the 80s has been reversed because of 30+ years of uninterrupted wealth concentration and deindustrialization. The monster responsible for it is more powerful than ever before. It has corrupted virtually all of Western Society.

The best we can hope for as a society under the intoxicating influence of greed and these horribly unjust circumstances resulting from it is a tweak or two. To hope for anything more without a massive redistribution of wealth is like hoping for a pack of junkyard dogs to line up in single file for a bite of steak.

Even with a massive redistribution, it would take a full generation or two to effectively re-program minority culture.

The really bad news is that it won't happen. The ancient Romans didn't resolve their socio-economic issues and neither will we.

Someday, many years from now, entire cities will burn to the ground.

But it didn't have to be this way.

Greed kills. It will be our downfall.

IT WILL BE OUR DOWNFALL.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

Some human beings do need regulation...violent greed driven sociopaths...like ws ceos and gangsta thugs ....that's why we have police and regulatory boards. It is enforcement we lack.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

There are plenty of poor white people...who are just quieter about it and not committing crimes and who don't have people or groups like Jessie Jackson advocating on their behalf. There are sooo many non profits that make a living helping poor minorities...accessing government help. Yeah just try walking in there as a white person...they need not apply. The reason many whites hate safety nets...is because while they pay into them...they do not have access to them when they fall on hard times....and because so many criminals are living their lifestyle on them while taking advantage of the system. It doesn't seem "entitlements" are very effective in thwarting crime rates. Let's talk about the fact too...that there is nothing to prevent these child parents from using their children's state benefits on themselves. ( or a consumer hungry gangsta thug who loves bling and shopping at the mall blowing what could be his childs college fund)

[-] 4 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Entitlements never would have become anywhere as necessary if it weren't for the COW. Because of ongoing deindustrialization and human nature, they tend to become generational.

The crime rates of inner cities, the bling, the desire for it, and the lousy parental attitudes are all products of a society under the intoxicating influence of greed while suffering from the socio-economic effects of wealth concentration and deindustrialization.

[-] 1 points by elf3 (3778) 3 years ago

Ask any secretary if she has ever seen such a comfortable income?

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/08/19/work-or-welfare-what-pays-more/

Because this is what the working class read about.

On the entitlement average in my state, I can't even imagine grumbling about being broke and needing to sell drugs to supplement it...I'm going to defend a bit of the right wing viewpoint for a moment here because it is not out of left field. When no one addresses the counterpoint to the concerns of the working law abiding taxpayers...it is like debating corporate america where facts don't matter and problems are redirected down the memory hole. $50,000 - average welfare!!!!? More than fifty percent of working Americans make under $27,000 per year!!!!!!. Corporate America is no doubt thriving off of this system...win win (workers supplement those who have been downsized and can't get jobs with rising tax rates) they retain consumers...win win for the stock market....corporations don't pay tax so who is toiling for everyone else? Average joe....average joe who is exhausted from working so much with no breaks, pissed they are missing their lives, and still struggling to pay bills. Meanwhile they have to install alarms so people who probably profit off their labor getting their tax money and spending so well they are artificially raising the Cost of everything...don't rob them for being so...privileged? Hell if anyone deserves to rob a grocery store id say they do. But mostly they keep working and shelling out. Americans do work hard. They have very high productivity rates and take very little vacation. They are getting taken advantage of in so many ways. I have to defend them. Though I'm kind of sick of the fact that they only seemingly ever point their fingers in one direction...when they don't even notice the puppetmasters who gladly accept their contribution ...where is the outrage for Wall Street who let's face it is now basically our government and master? People need to think deeper. But then again they really have so little time these days they probably can't get in more than a quick snippet or sound bite.

[-] 3 points by grapes (5052) 3 years ago

Have you ever had your head banged to the sidewalk by the police? Have you ever had store clerks trailing you in a store because of your skin color? Have you demonstrated against apartheid in South Africa? Have you had your lawsuit dismissed because of ethnic fealty of the judge with the defendant? If you cannot answer yes to these questions, you do not know what this matter is about.

[-] 1 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Gee SMC, not even knowing the facts, STILL YOU are beginning to sound more and more like a neocon who supports the corrupt R&D status quo which is guarateed to sustain it, while keeping systemic change at bay.. I think I'll just watch as you blunder away, OK?

[-] -1 points by StillModestCapitalist (343) 3 years ago

Gee spinoza, why don't you man up, respond to my last reply and/or my challenge page and finally make your fiscal conservative position official instead of using multiple IDs to masquerade as disgruntled liberals.

Now, sign on using your other IDs and mark away.

Mark mark mark!

[-] 0 points by spinoza34 (400) 3 years ago

Amazing, the twerp who runs around here pushing his "corrupt R&D status quo" agenda (on an Occupy forum!!), and who is continuously spreading false accusations about anyone who is not voting for Democrats... is telling me to "man up"?! You're funny..