Forum Post: Vote Obama in Swing States and Green Party in Safe States
Posted 11 years ago on Oct. 21, 2012, 2:13 p.m. EST by struggleforfreedom80
(6584)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Noam Chomsky on priorities, and things you should keep in mind when voting in US elections, and how to avoid the really bad outcomes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oelb_akG_3Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ1r0Ak50hE&feature=related
I live in a safe state and will vote for Jill Stein. This is exactly the strategy I was explaining to a friend today. The electoral college matters.
Any support for an alternative party is a good thing. I am in favor of everything which will help those parties grow.
I believe that alternative party votes are even more important in swing states however. The duopoly needs to fear loss of votes in the swing states. As Chris Hedges says,
I understand where you are coming from, but tell that to people living on social security, the unemployed, those with no health insurance, children living in poverty, etc.
I understand where you're coming from too. I share your concern for those people. I fear that failing to take a firm stand now, will lead to even greater suffering for the vulnerable over the long term. What incentive do the dems have to improve if they never suffer any consequences from their base?
I appreciate they way you can disagree while acknowledging some validity in other points of view BW. It's a very nice, much needed quality.
Thanks, :). This is tough because I want the big change. I don't want to live in this country the way it is right now, but I don't want to see people suffer either and I also know that most of them have been too brainwashed to see the need for the big change. Blind nationalism rules the day.
It would be great to have it both ways of course. If I can't have Rocky or Stein for president, my second choice would be Obama just barely winning while losing enough votes to Rocky & Stein to put the fear of God in the Dems.
Bingo
So you get to voice your feelings, but Im stuck being a pawn?
Yep. Sorry, hchc. LOL. I get you totally, but what are we to do? The little tiny smidgeon that Obama is less harmful does matter to a lot of people.
Yeah. It’s of course sad that Americans will get either someone bad or someone even worse elected, but it’s reality. I think it makes sense to vote for the lesser of two evils when one of them certainly will win.
So vote Obama – without illusions – and continue the important work that’s done in between elections.
I'm in a swing state. I'm voting for Jill Stein. The Reps are corrupt. The Dems are corrupt. Why wait? Start the revolution now. Your plan only puts a corrupt party in power. Stop kicking the can down the road and vote for third party candidates across the board. A strong showing now will set the stage for the Mid=terms, which will set the stage for 2016. Time to quit playing same old politics and be honest about what we want.
I agree. As it is we have already lost the 2012 elections. I live in Nevada so I understand where beautiful world is coming from. The problem is if I vote obama that means I am voting for indefinite detention and the continued corporate control of our government. I can not in good conscience do that.
By voting Jill Stein you'll increase Romney's chances of winning the election. Keep that in mind when entering the voting booth.
I totally understand you wanting to vote for Jill Stein, but doing it in a swing state will help the opposite side.
I'm all for starting a revolution, but you don't contribute to that by helping Romney get elected.
The struggle for freedom will be long and hard. Along the way we must avoid the most awful politicians gaining more power.
"but doing it in a swing state will help the opposite side"??? Whose opposite side? Procrastination has no value at all. This election will be won by a Big money sucking whore of a pofessional politician, no matter if its Reps or Dems. Build a movement that will last or keep voting for one side which sweet talks while enslaving us.
"Build a movement that will last"
Absolutley. But along the way people should do tactical choices that will prevent the worst outcome in the corporate-run US elections.
Do the right thing the few minutes you spend in the voting booth, then leave and get back to the important work.
so your plan to start a revolution is to vote for Obama? fight the power!
It's a tactic. Making the right short term choices on the way to a more democratic and just society without corporate tyranny is important. One of these choices is keeping the most reactionary right-wing politicians away from the White House along the way.
Your "tactic" is akin to getting sexually assaulted by two men. One with a large pecker and one with a small. Then telling the cops to let the guy with the small pecker go.
It is a fact that either Obama or Romney will win. It is a fact that Obama is really bad, but that Romney's even worse. It is a fact that Romney's chances of winning will increase if you vote Stein in swing states. Again, this is important to have in mind when entering the booth.
I hate the status quo just as much as you, but it's going to take time to make the changes that are needed. This is about spending a little time going to the booth and making a tactical choice that will contribute to avoiding the worst outcome in this election, and then going back to activism, enlightening and convincing poeple to join the struggle for a more democratic and just society.
A vote for the corporate parties means they get a return on their propaganda ads and they see it as a mandate too keep on scamming us. The only way to get reform at the ballot is to vote for those that support the agenda of the public not the campaign contributors.
A vote for the establishment is a wasted vote not a vote for sincere candidates with grass roots support.
My preference is also Stein but the lesser even, which ever one it turns out to be will be a little more evil than the last lesser evil.
The Democrats and Republicans are both corporate run to a large extent. But like I've explained many times here: it's a tactic.
It is a fact that either Obama or Romney will win. It is a fact that Obama is really bad, but that Romney's even worse. It is a fact that Romney's chances of winning will increase if you vote Stein in swing states.
I hate the status quo just as much as you, but it's going to take time to make the changes that are needed. This is about spending a little time going to the booth and making a tactical choice that will contribute to avoiding the worst outcome in this election, and then going back to activism, enlightening and convincing poeple to join the struggle for a more democratic and just society.
There may be some truth to that but we are playing a game of chicken with either candidate and supporting them gives them the impression that they have a mandate to use the same scam again and again. Or at least that is the way they seem to have been interpreting it.
Like I've said: it's the work between the elections that's really important. If the organizing continues and grows, with an increasing amount of people getting involved in activism, striking, enlightening, building a huge Occupy Movement with organized workers, then that's also going to send a clear message to the corporate puppets. Voting Obama is simply just a tactic to avoid the worst outcome in the near future.
It still shows that the propaganda ads pay for themselves since they can buy votes and if people base their votes on the issues and refuse to vote for someone that ignores the will of the people then they will have to start addressing the will of the people. A couple of days ago I cited the Milgram experiments and made the following statement to address this which seems appropriate to me.
"In these experiments they have studies how willing people were to implement shocks to a victim for a reason that doesn’t stand up to scrutiny if scrutiny is applied. These experiments have indicated that many people were willing to do what they’re told by authority figures even when it means electrocuting an innocent person especially if someone else takes the responsibility. They also show that people are more likely to do so if there is more distance between the person being shocked and it would be reasonable to believe that if they could rely on complex institutions to maintain plausible deniability they would be even more likely to obey."
"Would you vote to bomb this child if an authority figure told you to, and that you had to accept the premise for the election that the authority figure is giving to you?"
For full context and picture see:
http://zacherydtaylor.blogspot.com/2012/10/could-alternative-debates-be-game.html
Also you cite Chomsky for your case but he is as outraged about Obama and he has recommended Stein as well.
Chomsky recommend voting Green Party in safe states and Obama in swing states.
Jill is awsome, but voting for her in swing states will increase Romney's chances. It's sad that the system works this way, but it's true.
I didn't keep track of everything that Chomsky said but I don't think Mitt has a chance especially since you consider his base is literally abandoning him for Jesus. In the past two hours about five hundred more people pledged to vote for Jesus!
Don't take my word for it watch the results as they pour in for yourself!
http://www.votingforjesus.com/
Every time we vote for the lesser evil they both get a little more evil!
I hope as many as possible don't vote for Romney. The thing is that if people vote anything but Obama in swing states, they're kind of voting for Romney, because it helps him.
"Every time we vote for the lesser evil they both get a little more evil!"
Not if we build popular movements with organized workers that prevent them.
I don't like Romney anymore than you do but considering all the idiotic things he's been doing I don't th8ink he has a chance anyway despite the polls that seem to indicate that it is a close race. Actually many of the polls indicate that he is doing much worse and the ones that are done by his supporters are the ones that are most likely to put him ahead and they often don't even do that.
The fact that he just got caught with an incompetent photo op and Paul Ryan got caught with another clearly indicates that this is a disaster campaign.
On any other day I could pick another disaster for Romney there is just one after another. This is why the primary threat is clearly Obama; for all practical purposes the corporate media is just trying to run one candidates and pretend their two and it is close.
One of the ways to build a popular movement is to show it has the support with votes; one of the ways to indicate that the support isn't their is to accept the lie about only having the two corporate candidates.
Every four years we hear the same message. Cooperate with the lesser tyranny. We'll do the right thing next time. The result, tyranny grows stronger every year.
If we are truly serious about change, we must change the way we vote, now. Collaboration with injustice today equals tyranny tomorrow.
This is about avoiding the worst of the two alternatives reaching power. It is a fact that not voting Obama in swing states increases the chances of Romney/Ryan winning.
There are many ways one can fight corporate tyranny, but increasing the chances of Romney winning is not one of them. The key to fighting the status quo lies in the work that's being done between the elections.
Make sure the status quo stays in power
LOL
Yeah that will help
Vote for drone strikes and unlimited resources for Wall Street.
A vote for Obama or Romney is a vote for the status quo.
Vote for the people funded by banks to regulate banks. Vote for people funded by corporations to end corporate hand outs. LOL
No, the status quo must be changed. The political and economic system should be changed radically, but that’s not going to happen in the very near future. It’s sad that either someone bad or someone even worse will get elected, but it’s reality. Romney/Ryan will be very damaging, so making sure the lesser of two evils will win makes sense when those are the only choices. Remember also that it is the work that’s done in between elections that’s most important.
it's not going to happen in the near future because the majority of the people in this country are brainwashed by the status quo into voting for the status quo
What going to happen 4 years from now? You just going to keep suggesting the vote for the status quo and say "we'll take care of it 4 years from now?"
we have millions of non-violent americans in jails and prisons who have committed no real crimes and you want to tell me to worry about that next election?
I'm going to worry about it now and vote against the people that want to bomb a country in 2013 that work for the system giving unlimited resources to wall street.
Many people have been propagandized, but that doesn't mean you should contribute to increasing Romney's chances of winning.
Again, the key to fighting the status quo lies in the work that's being done between the elections.
It's not about dealing with it in 4 years, it's about dealing with it right now, but the struggle to end corporate tyranny is going to take time.
It is a fact that not voting Obama in swing states increases the chances of Romney/Ryan winning, so like I said, making sure the lesser of two evils will win makes sense when those are the only choices.
I am pretty sure that my life will not be noticeably different regardless of who wins. Yours probably won't either. I am positive Washington won't be run any differently. I'm voting 3rd party for the President as well as as many lower seats as possible.
There are small differences. Romney wants to make the rich and the huge corporations even more powerful f.ex. I assume that's not what you want, right?
People said this about Bush/Gore in 2000 as well. No one knows what Gore would have done if he'd been president of course, so it's just speculation, but the financial crisis in 08 would maybe not be as bad if Gore was president, and he might not have invaded Iraq. There are small differences that could turn out to be serious and important.
I can't say this enough: I think Obama's awful. Romney however is even worse - and one of them will become president. I like Stein, but voting for her in swing states helps Romney.
there will be a Romney every election. Palin was Romney in 2008. GWB was Romney in 2004. GWB was Romney in 2000. Dole was Romney in 1996. Bush sr was Romney in 1992. Bush Sr was Romney in 1988. There will be a Romney in 2016, 2020, 2024, 2028 and beyond.
So you are telling people to constantly vote for the status quo which works for Wall Street, war, and the world's largest prison system.
No thanks.
I'm going to vote for people that represent me.
The agreement fest at the foreign policy debate tonight should have opened your eyes.
I agree with you 100%.
I say keep the right wing wackos out of power & then continue the street actions to pressure all pols for change that benefits the 99%.
Glad to hear. And I assume you also agree that Obama is awful, right?
Not so much.
Well, then we don't agree so much after all. And why don't you think so?
I think.Pres Obama has made real (slow) progress on most of the issues I care about.
I think his failures are mainly related to PTB/right wing obstruction, & the absents of real progressive protest/pressure for the change that benefits the 99%.
I never expected one politician to solve all problems, Never so naive that I bought the walkin on water/messiah thang.
The country is right wing/corp controlled. 1 term ain't gonna change much! Who thought that?
The required change will take years of hard work. Our current problems began (in earnest) 3 decades ago. It is impossible to all we need in 3 1/2 years.
We have stabilized the right wing created economic crises and made small steps towards the progressive agenda. I recognize the slow progress and want to support all efforts for more.
I agree that the Republicans have contributed, but he's bought and paid for just like so many others. He is a center/right-wing politician who has done very little to improve conditions for the american population.
And btw, sending soldiers into another country and murdering an unarmed suspect f.ex is pretty awful, don't you think.
Done little to improve conditions for American populations.
That is so dishonest. Who don't remember the Bush left us on. Are you joking.?
We were losing 850k jobs per month. Where were you?
Pres Obamas policies turned around the worst economic crash since the great depression.
Not fast enough?. Yeah I agree, Maybe the repubs obstruction slowed things down? You gonna conveniently forget that treasonous bunch.
Not enough progress? Yeah I agree. Maybe if the people weren't asleep and let the right wing wackos take the House in 2010 we would've made more progress. People gotta wake up vote out the right wing wacko obstructionists and PROTEST Then things will get done.
Waiting for one politician to do everything for us is just lazy, and entitled fat ass suburbanism. Blaming one politician is just partisan campaigning.
LMFAO
Don't blame me for increasing chances for Romney winning.
I'd be more than happy to vote for a democrat against Romney. I'm just not going to vote for a democrat that bombs 6 countries in 4 years and agrees with Mitt Romney about Iran and drone strikes. You and a bunch of other people chose a democrat that doesn't represent me. Don't blame me for that.
Why would I vote for people that don't represent me when there are people running for election that do represent me?
Also don't waste your breath trying to convince me to vote for Obama. You'd be wasting your time. It would be no different than trying to convince me to vote for Romney. It's not going to happen ever.
I gave Obama a chance in 2008 and have regretted my vote ever since. After seeing the irresponsibility and murder from the drone strikes and a guaranteed minimum 6 years of scheduled war planned under this administration, I have made a vow to not vote for war.
This means I will never vote for someone like Romney and I will never vote for someone like Obama.
How many decades of voting for the status quo got us to this point? And you want to continue it?
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The thing we do different is not going to sleep after the election. THAT is the difference that will make a difference.
Protests, massive, growing, specific protests for change that benefits the 99%
It's not about doing the same and expecting different results, it's about a very important short term goal: keeping Romney and the Ayn Rand-disciple away from the White House.
Obama is bad, yes, but Romney is even worse - and one of them is going to be the next president.
The struggle for freedom will be long and hard. Along the way we must avoid the most awful politicians gaining more power.
I just mailed in my absentee ballot yesterday and am plenty thrilled that I voted for Jill Stein rather than either of the two fascist parties. My primary residence is Massachusetts, so I have nothing to worry about in terms of electoral votes.
If enough people vote green this election, we can send a message to the Dems that they better change their policy, otherwise next time around they'll lose their jobs. Same thing happened with the Tea Party and the Repubs.
The Democrats won't change their policies until the political system is changed. Elections and the ones running in them are run by the wealthy. Governments and politicians don't control corporations, it's the other way around.
I think it's a concomitant relationship. Corporations were made wealthy by lax government policies, and politicians are made wealthy by corporations. Perhaps now the favor sways more heavily in the realm of corporations, but it's still an "you scratch my back..." sort of deal.
Corporations absolutely NEED government. The military and police are necessary for them so that we don't try to take our money back.
so much for principle over politics...
You can still have principles and ideological and political convictions, and at the same time do tactical choices that will help avoid the worst outcome. Like I told another one here: It is a fact that either Obama or Romney will win. It is a fact that Obama is really bad, but that Romney's even worse. It is a fact that Romney's chances of winning will increase if you vote Stein in swing states. It's important to have in mind the consequences of one's actions.
I hate the status quo, but it's going to take time to make the changes that are needed. This is about spending a little time going to the booth and making a tactical choice that will contribute to avoiding the worst outcome in this election, and then going back to activism, enlightening and convincing poeple to join the struggle for a more democratic and just society.
We talk about the MSM brainwashing the American people, but it looks like they rinsed a large portion of Occupy's members too.
For an Occupier to vote for Obama after knowing he will keep the troops in Afghanistan till 2014, while fighting to reinstate the indefinite detention provision of the NDAA, continuing drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen, failing to close Guantanamo, and not ending the war on drugs, convinces me that the 1% will remain in power and grow stronger.
This is our chance to vote for freedom and instead some choose safety.
Do you agree that not voting Obama in swing states will increase the chances of Romney entering the White House?
It is a very sad fact that either Romney or Obama will become the next president. Obama's bad, really bad, but Romney's even worse. This is about spending a little time going to the booth and making a tactical choice that will contribute to avoiding the worst outcome in this election, and then going back to activism, enlightening and convincing poeple to join the struggle for a more democratic and just society.
The reason why we have two bad choices now is because of people who used your strategy in the past. That strategy used now will result in what in the future? More bad choices 4, 8, and 12 years from now.
But notice what I mentioned at the end in the response to you (and many others here). It's about what happens in between the elections that's really important, and will contribute substantially to change. It's not about just voting for the same politicians and ending up with the status quo in the future, it's about doing a tactical choice in the ongoing struggle for justice.
You can't defeat injustice by voting for tyranny.
You sort of can. If we know for sure that either an awful tyranny or an even more awful tyranny will get in power, it's important to avoid the worst tyranny getting power along the way in the struggle for justice.
Justice is won by courage and lost by fear.
The other option would be to vote "Green" in ALL states. Keeping either corporate party in power is a vote for the status-quo. Of course maybe you like things as they are ................ I dunno.
I don't like things the way they are. I want big changes, probably bigger changes than you want.
The reasons for not voting Green Party in swing states are explained in the links in the post.
I'm of the opinion that progressives ought to vote Obama even in safe states. Why? Because a moral defeat for Romney would be both a loss of the office of president and a loss of the popular vote nationwide. A situation in which Obama wins the electoral college but Romney gets more popular votes opens the door for a great terrible rightist/racist agitation that progressives are not in any way prepared to meet.
Obama is a better bullshitter. The better bullshitter always wins the POTUS. He was better than McCain. Bush was better than Kerry. If Gore was the Gore of now instead of that stick up the ass guy he was before, 2000 would have been a no contest. Clinton was a MUCH better bullshitter than Dole (I see this election as very similar to the one right now) and Bush Sr.
Its not about helping the American people, its keeping them believing in a system that is fucking them over year after year after year.
I don't give Obama any credence in terms of his motivations. I am concerned about a victory for the real live died in the wool anti black haters, the gay bashers the "women belong in the kitchen" crowd. I don't want them to pick up even more momentum than they already have. I do not have any faith that the choices made in an election make much difference if at all in and of themselves. it's who gets energized and who gets demoralized. I didn't vote Obama last time- he had more Wall Street Money than McCain did (now it's not the case) I stayed home. I'm not going to be so silly as to bother my day to "vote" for a socialist because voting is not going to bring socialism or even bring back the new deal. Only bitter struggle on many fronts will work. I want to see real change and that will come from mighty upsurges of the very people who are going to vote for Obama.
2000 was stolen, NYT and others proved it, but 9-11 hit.
I'm in a swing state and still undecided what to do. What will it take for democrats to stop talking down to us and selling out? The ACA sucks. We spend way more on the military than we should and these bankers get to do whatever they want. Do we have to throw this election to get them to listen? It might not do any good to let Romney win because Hillary is waiting in the wings for 2016 and she's just as big a sellout as any of them. This two-party system sucks.
Just the fact that so called "safe states" exist should outrage you people.
Yep. My vote doesn't matter anyway, so I will use it wisely to vote rocky for real change.
Maybe if more would do that, we could have hope for change, that is peaceful through voting, rather than economic colapse all over again.
There are still too big to fail banks what's up with that?
The more people vote third party the more others will be encouraged to vote third party in the future.
You vote for Rocky matters. He won't win this time around, but every bit of support for an alternative candidate helps builds the groundwork for change.
The existing political system in the U.S. (and many other countries) should outrage everyone.
If OWS is to succeed in anything, It must move forward, and take action. Without action there can be no hope of a better tomorrow. Action means If you want something to change you must take sides. Not voting will only keep the problem in power. 10,000,000 3rd party votes will send a clear and loud message that cannot be ignored, And will Be one step closer to all our hopes and dreams. That is 10,000,000 votes that the powers that be will not get. When The speaker of the house gets on world wide tv and laughs in your face and tells you to go home get a shower and a job, you don’t just sit idly buy. But none of this is occupy wall streets policy. So they have already failed. And all the protests in the world will not help.
How do you know if your state is really safe? I mean like all the polls show is a "probability" of somebody winning. That means the other guy also still has a "chance" of winning. In reality nobody knows for sure. In probability though the "safest" States to enact your strategy are the States that show up very red on the polling map. I would not suggest it "safe" to vote "Green" in what is pictured as a "Blue" state. Otherwise the chance of the other guy winning can become a reality.
I'm all for Jill Stein and the Green party, but I'm pragmatic enough to know lesser evil is indeed going to be all that much less evil I'm going to have to deal with.
Man getting desperate to keep he sheep in line are we? Gotta keep the salves on the plantation
What?
*sigh....it's beyond pathetic to say go ahead and vote green in safe states but vote Obama in swing states. Another attempt to let off the pressure that's building up with people who don't want to vote for Obama. Looks like a sad attempt to keep the slaves on the plantation
Be absolutely sure first. The RepubliCons CHEAT!
WTFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDTT1yRNsFE&feature=player_embedded
P = A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fojrlX6rmmM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
she took social security payments
he took social security payments
she thought a woman president was unthinkable
she admired child killer william hickman
Paul: the morality of capitalism
Florida
http://occupywallst.org/forum/florida-proposed-constitutional-amendments-this-is/
Proof : republiclan voting machine fraud
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T32eRtxEiRw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDbnzpXvTkQ
OHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIOOHIO
Good advice. As I recall Chomsky said if he was in a swing state he would vote for Obama.
I would say also, remember, whoever gets in power we must protest and pressure all pols for change that benefits the 99%.