Forum Post: OWS is doomed to fail if it doesn't get its act together
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 1, 2011, 1:09 p.m. EST by Indepat
(924)
from Minneola, FL
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
irst off, I am not a troll, and I support this movement, for now. And I agree with the original issue, that we must get the money out of Washington, that we must take our government back. I am with the 99% against the 1%, but as long as this movement remains formless, unorganized, leaderless, with no focus, no vision, no strategy to speak of, it is doomed and will not succeed. And as long as it continues to lean to the left it will open its self to a takeover by the Democratic, liberal machine. It’s already starting to happen. You must remember, or realize, Democrats, like Republicans are part of the problem. Let them take this over, like the republicans have taken over the Tea Party and this thing will be over before it has begun.
For all those that support this formless, leaderless crap, you are part of the problem, and will cause this thing to fail.
For all those that agree with me, then take a stand and do something about it. Because this might be our last chance to force real change in what just might be the most important issue of our time.
If we fail, if Washington continues to work only for narrow special interests and the 1%, at the rest of our expense, as this nations expense, this nation will not persevere.
My single goal with these posts is to keep them at the top, if you agree with me, then please help me keep all 12 at the top of this forum. If you don’t agree, then go off and continue to be part of the problem.
I agree with you. You can not "win" this way. The movement is seen by many (even it's supporters) as becoming a huge waste of time. Without goals, without an actionable plan, there is no "resistance." I'm not going to stop paying my debts and not go to work on 'strike' for a group so unorganized that it could not see it would need winter supplies in preparation for a storm that was announced way in advance! I am also not going to donate any money or supplies to a movement that refuses to be transparent about how much has been received in cash and other donations when this is one of the very things that they are asking of business and government! To say that by having a leader (or leaders) that "leaders can be corrupted," well, anyone can be corrupted- if they are corruptible, and not everyone is. Some people are moral and just, they refuse to go along because "everyone is doing it." Is there is so little faith among the members that they can not pick one or a small group to represent their goals? And speaking of goals, when are we going to see some? I mean real ones, ones that those who don't live at the park and are not confident about the way things are working now in the country but don't know what to do about it can support? And why can't OWS turn themselves into a political party? If they are really right, that "We are the 99%," why do they have so little confidence that candidates they put forth, even as a third party in a two party system, would win? You have to have a reasonable platform that most people can get behind (whatever their current political tendency, all the way along the spectrum of 'conservative' to 'liberal and back again), from people with student debt to underwater mortgages to those with credit interest rates of 17-24% can support! I want to see an agenda now! The point has already been made by occupiers around the country. Please extend a real agenda to reasonable people by reasonable people, not the ones that suggest a complete revolution or abolishment of the current system is needed because it's "broken." What's broken can be fixed if enough people dedicate themselves to fixing it! You need to start focusing on popular support, strike now while the iron is hot, find candidates to run in critical areas NOW and keep the focus on doing this in campaign after campaign! If you've managed to bring someone to election and you don't like how they preformed, VOTE THEM OUT NEXT TIME. It's not impossible nor is it rocket science. Some say, all over this board, that "the world is watching." And they are, but remember, people have very short attention spans, so please OWS, get it together! It is said that many demonstrating are college educated an are characterized as smart- get some of those smart people to to write up an agenda that even those who aren't "radical" can get behind. I plead with you to do this or else you will have wasted your chance to effect any meaningful change.
I think a large majority of supporters are desiring leadership, and goals....I wonder why OWS isnt listening???
Ok, How about I declare myself "the leader" and you all take my orders? Satisfied? Wasn't that easy. Spread the word now my subjects. Seaglass is now large and in charge!!
a lot of angry people on here who dont very well tolerate differing opinions..hmmm....the 99% are varied in beliefs. The sarcasm benefits no one.
Lighten up already , I was making a joke.
eh guess one cant convey tone of voice online very well...im light im light. :)
Consider what G. William Domhoff says here about how to frame the issues: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_freshstart.html "If the problem is developing new policies and gaining political power, which it is, then the struggle should be framed from the start as a conflict over power and values, not as a struggle between social classes. The in-group should be all those who come to embrace the program of the egalitarian movement, and the out-group should be all those who oppose such changes. If the conflict is framed in this way, an egalitarian coalition has a chance to win over the moderates, neutrals, and independents who currently identify with capitalists, and who might be offended by blanket criticisms of them as a class. It may even attract dissident members of the capitalist class who transcend their class interests, and in the process become very valuable in legitimating the movement to those in the middle who are hesitant to climb on board."
Domhoff further suggests there to create "Democratic Egalitarian Clubs" to essentially "occupy" the Democratic Party and take it over with a new platform. And that would lead to a lot of OWS supporters running as Democratic candidates, similar to what happened with the Tea Party, which is not really a third party but uses the Republican Party infrastructure.
Basically, he says in the USA third parties are not viable in the short term (and gives a lot of reasons). What is viable is what the Tea Party did, essentially carve out part of one of the two political parties and try to increase support there. If OWS is truly a national movement, it could take over the Democratic Party. It maybe could take over both parties, but the Democrats are obviously going to be somewhat easier. And Domhoff outlines a well-defined strategy for doing that.
I agree third party candidates are not necessarily viable, but there has been so much chatter on this forum about how OWS can not let itself be co-opted by any particular party or larger group, this is the only reason I suggested it. I agree, it would be easier to get candidates sympathetic to some of the issues raised by OWS to run on the Democratic ticket, but say OWS really takes off and becomes a dominant grassroots force that threatens the status quo. In that case, I could see a third party candidate having a chance in a congressional race. But things being as they are, it is still quite expensive to run a campaign, so working within an established party, similar to what happened with the Tea party (but without watering down of the message after a single election), could be an option, but no one from OWS seems willing to take an official stand on the matter or even suggest a candidates or put forth one of their own. In my opinion, that's a mistake. I agree with many of the principals of OWS at its core, but if they continue with this idea of a non structured, leaderless movement, I don't see it effecting much real change.
I've seen the Greens struggle with the similar issue for a quarter century... A key idea to understand: http://www.t0.or.at/delanda/meshwork.htm "To make things worse, the solution to this is not simply to begin adding meshwork components to the mix. Indeed, one must resist the temptation to make hierarchies into villains and meshworks into heroes, not only because, as I said, they are constantly turning into one another, but because in real life we find only mixtures and hybrids, and the properties of these cannot be established through theory alone but demand concrete experimentation. Certain standardizations, say, of electric outlet designs or of data-structures traveling through the Internet, may actually turn out to promote heterogenization at another level, in terms of the appliances that may be designed around the standard outlet, or of the services that a common data-structure may make possible. On the other hand, the mere presence of increased heterogeneity is no guarantee that a better state for society has been achieved. After all, the territory occupied by former Yugoslavia is more heterogeneous now than it was ten years ago, but the lack of uniformity at one level simply hides an increase of homogeneity at the level of the warring ethnic communities. But even if we managed to promote not only heterogeneity, but diversity articulated into a meshwork, that still would not be a perfect solution. After all, meshworks grow by drift and they may drift to places where we do not want to go. The goal-directedness of hierarchies is the kind of property that we may desire to keep at least for certain institutions. Hence, demonizing centralization and glorifying decentralization as the solution to all our problems would be wrong. An open and experimental attitude towards the question of different hybrids and mixtures is what the complexity of reality itself seems to call for. To paraphrase Deleuze and Guattari, never believe that a meshwork will suffice to save us."
Thanks fot that, it was very interesting, good read (though I had to read it three times to get the gist of it overall- not ashamed to admit when I am a little slow.... ) :)
I think I probably had to read it five times or more myself the first time. :-)
What it comes down to is that all real social and physical systems have aspects of top-down hierarchies and bottom-up meshworks. People often try to assert systems should be one or the other, but such pure systems rarely work. That's one reason why the Greens in the USA have struggled so long, for example, under a dogma essentially that there can't be any significant hierarchy. OWS is struggling with the same dogma. This is not to be against bottom-up stuff though, or workplace democracy, and so on. This is just to say we need to accept some level of hierarchy in our systems. Even as maybe we should never 100% trust it? http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/editors-blog/2011/1029/Is-this-the-era-of-leaderlessness
These are common themes from centuries of US politics though -- how to keep leadership accountable to the most important needs of most or all people.
There are reasons why human societies have persisted so long with both a tendency to a "rule following" right and a "rule breaking or new rule making" left: http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/left_and_right.html
We need both. For example, rules and hierarchies help deal with parasites, sociopathic narrowly selfish harmful behavior, and help ensure key values get respected, and for that it is useful to have a strong hierarchy. Who else is going to keep big corporations from polluting than big government? At least while staying within the law and avoiding violence?
Even OWS creates its own security teams with rules and so on. Or, recently "Drummers all the time? Let's make a rule and enforce it".
On the other hand, rules can be corrupted by parasites and for sociopathic selfish reasons, like we have seen in the USA with corporate welfare or a subsidized food pyramid that supports unhealthy food. ( http://www.seriouseats.com/2007/11/the-subsidized-food-pyramid.html ) And then people need to move beyond the rules and hierarchies, and it is helpful to have a strong meshwork.
Meshworks can keep hierarchies accountable, but hierarchies can keep meshworks from drifting and can efficiently implement and support the values and policies the meshwork articulates as ground rules for its healthy functioning.
Often, vibrant societies have both strong hierarchies (good governments at all levels that regulate externalities) and strong meshworks (like a big voluntary exchange sector doing business, or a strong gift economy, or lots of local subsistence).
We need to stop thinking in terms of left/right or black and white, and learn to think in "color" as suggested at this website on "A New Way Of Thinking": http://www.anwot.org/
So, it is not hierarchies or meshworks, it is hierarchies and meshworks. So, we will likely see something like OWS get hierarchical leadership of some sort (and there already is some), but the meshwork will need to keep the leadership accountable. That was supposed to be what the US Constitution did, as well, with a "Republic" of elected representatives, even though something has obviously gone wrong related to corruption of law making by monied interests -- otherwise we'd have, say, universal health care by now in the USA by at a minimum providing Medicare for all.
Or even just better nutrition through subsidies for healthy foods like vegetables, fruits, beans, and nuts, seeds, and whole grains; for example: http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/PCI_angioplasty_article.aspx "Trying to figure out how to pay for ineffective and expensive medicine by politicians will never be a real solution. People need to know they do not have to have heart disease to begin with, and if they get it, aggressive nutrition is the most life-saving intervention. And it is free."
But even with that knowledge, it helps to have some hierarchies to distribute that advice or create the infrastructure to act on it (like better medical devices for quickly assessing nutrition-related health status).
I agree with everything except with the election stuff. I think you have to change the system, before you change the people.
But I agree with everything else. Exactly.
Really? I think the whole point of educating people in the parks everyday is about changing the people in order to change the system.
Educating them on what? Every single issue that exists in the world today? and at some point, you need to move just beyond educating and actually do something. Also, how inefficient is using the parks to educate people, how about the media, the same exact media that efficiently brainwashes everyone. How about focusing on just a few key issues, the real big ones, instead of trying to everything to everyone at all times.
This thing is a mess.
There is a difference between complex and a mess. How do you use the media? They won't even cover it except when they get a chance to put a 10 second clip on of the biggest idiot they can find.
Pick something you know really really well. Go and try to explain it to someone in 15 seconds who knows nothing about it. It's impossible. Try it with campaign finance reform, health care, sub prime mortgage crimes....
They are doing it this way because it by passes every corrupt system. It's a human to human and social networking viral movement. Yes it would be amazing if people were allowed to actually talk on television, but they are not. Never have been allowed to, and likely never will.
You don't need to educate every person on everything. You need people to pick their battle and focus on that and subsequently trust that the other battles are being fought with a reasonable set of core principles that do not violate the very things we are fighting against.
How about creating a web series on the occupy website home page where we interview our OWN people about issues. Broken down by topics of discussion. People can sift through and make comments and move issues forward that way.
Yes, exactly, they find anyone they want, but if you actually had a leadership group, that actually had a PR department, and a team of spokespeople, you could control the message. This is the way things work and get done in the real world. This idea, that something with no organization, no structure, no leadership is the whimsical dreams of an anarchist.
Develop and implement a media blitz that tells people that we are focused on a single issue, stopping the flow of special interest and corporate money into Washington. Wouldn't take much to explain it or prove that this is the case, then hammer away, relentlessly, because like Democrats and Republicans and the 1% learned a long, long time ago, if you keep saying the same exact thing over and over eventually people will take it as fact.
We are fighting the 1% take over of Washington, that's what we are fighting, that is the root cause, everything else, just a symptom of this reality. Lets ficus on that and actually make something happen.
There is nothing stopping you from doing this. There is not a single person in OWS that would be unhappy about a mass media campaign educating people about corporate money in Washington.
But you have to be allowed in the sand box in order to make a castle. You couldn't do this with a billion dollars. You just wouldn't be allowed to.
Yes, there is, I am not part of some leadership group, and I don;t have the mandate or the resources to accomplish such a thing.
Not sure what you're saying in the second part of your post.
But you don't have to be part of a leadership group to push a vital and important issue. You could do it by taking out a small ad in a local paper. Giant and big isn't the the only way to do it. If you only did it by yourself in a cafe talking to one person at a time, it's better than nothing.
In the second part, I am alluding to the fact that you can't just get anything you want on TV. AdBusters routinely has their messages about these things refused even paying full penny for whatever ad rate on prime time. It isn't just a case of dollars, it's a case of access and with the message you want to get out there, you don't have it no matter how much money you have.
This brings us full circle to educating people in parks, cafes, anything. One person at a time or one group at a time. You mentioned before the frequency and time with which a message needs to be repeated. This is the only economical way to do it, or at least the only option currently open (I am including the Internet in this too).
I just think, that the way to really get this ball rolling, and truly capitalize on this grassroots uprising, is the get organized and start moving in a single direction, with a single cause. That's the only way this is going to work.
As long as it remains formless, taking up any and all issues simultaneously, seemingly sort of interested in everything, not all out on any one particular issue.
By the way, adds is not the only way. If you had real spokespeople, real leaders who actually spoke for the movement, they could flood the news networks, CNN, CNBC, Fox etc... with appearances. Not only would it lend credibility to this thing, but it would get the word out.
The main problem now is most of the 99% have no idea what this thing is about because it's all over the place.
I don't deny that. I think it will happen at some point, it's not big enough yet.
There are many people that could be on those stations 24hrs a day. Chomsky, Klien, Hedges, Saul, Barlow, Goodman many more. Why aren't they?
It's not a question of lacking quality people to speak officially or unofficially on behalf of the movement. Those things would arise naturally if there was an actual investigative journalism arm of the media. Say one that inquisitively looked into the complexities and interests of a national movement. There isn't. Look at what you suggested for getting message out. PR people, not journalists. Because there aren't any. The fact we would need PR people is an indication of how broken it is, not the method we need to employ.
We don't want to game the system, we want to change it.
I agree. I think that the best way to educate people is through direct conversation because this gives the individual a chance to ask questions, clarify any misconceptions or ideas that they don't understand or ideas that they disagree with. If OWS only spread its message through the media it would look just like the conservative indoctrination of people on MSNBC and Fox. OWS has the right idea but maybe we should clarify the movement more publicly somehow, so that our movement doesn't get hijacked by idiots and ends up no where.
There just needs to be a consistent message, a singular, focus, vision etc... Not of that has been articulated. In fact this movement seems to be the exact opposite. It actually lacks all those things.
Anyway.
Agreed. The "vote them out" theory is like slapping a coat of paint on a rotting house. I'm with you. From what I've read thus far, 100%.
Voting out every incumbent is far more damaging to the corporate structure within the Democratic and Republican Party than slapping a coat of paint on the problem. The foundation of this rotting house is still strong. The strength of our democratic form of government is our right to vote. On Election Day that power overshadows any type of power Global Corporations have on our elected representatives. It's a power many of us chose not to use. Corporations don't mind people staying home on Election Day.
Thanks, yes, right now the system only promotes and rewards those that play by the current rules. we need to change those rules first, then we can focus on elections. Until the system changes, it doesn't matter who gets elected.
It's the major flaw in the Tea Parties strategy.
I don't really know if I agree with that, Indepat. This system has proved to be rather flexible. I think it is a matter of getting decent people who resist corruption elected, I think it takes more direct participation by people to let our representatives know what we REALLY want and hold them to a very high standard. Okay, raise your hand if you've ever actually written to/made a call to/attended a rally or town hall meeting by your congressman or senator. Who here has ever had the courage to actually cast a vote for a third party candidate? Heck, how many among us actually show up at the polls for elections other than presidential elections? I'll bet there are quite a few who have not done these things, yet seek change.
I just don't think they will ever make it that far, and if they do, they won't survive for long. You need a lot of money just to be considered, and if you can somehow make it in, the system that one would encounter only rewards and promotes those that play the game by the current rules. I think even those with the best intentions will find fail.
That's why I think you have to fix the system first, and I do love the system, then you can elect people who will do the right thing.
Well, see, here is one issue that I think everyone can get behind: campaign finance reform. Yet OWS won't even say that's something they officially endorse, is a part of their working agenda. I read one commentator here say, well everyone knows we are for that, why should we have to say anything? Because people want to know that! How is Ma and Pa Middle America going to know what you stand for if you continually say nothing? If you continually say nothing and protest against everything under the sun without taking a firm stand on anything, Ma and Pa Middle America are going to think you don't stand for anything but total anarchy, and frankly I don't think that's what Ma and Pa Middle America wants, I don't think it is what "99%" of us wants.
Yes, I think it should be the single focus, the single issue we call rally behind. It is the root cause of the problem, everything else people are railing against are merely symptoms of this root cause.
I don't get why they won't just rally around this single issue. It kills me to see all this enthusiasm, all this anger, rage just go to waste because no one wants to focus on this single issue.
Yes, exactly, how is everyone going to know when you don't say it. Worse, how are they going to know when you are all over the place.
By the way, I'm starting to think that the people who are leading this, are for anarchy, which I have to say, just might be the most ridiculous concept, political/social structure ever devised.
It may be better to simply form and/or join together in a single issue organization. I don't see that sort of focus coming out of Occupy.
You are probably correct.
I am in complete agreement with you on that. I do think this as somewhat of a call for anarchy, and I'm just not an anarchist. That's why I am afraid that OWS is just going to wind up being a blip on the screen, no matter how large a blip, because you can't change anything if you don't do anything besides protest or demonstrate. People already know, I mean 99% of us know that something is wrong, and yes, there are a lot of things that need fixing and could be changed, but you have to clearly define them and make the changes palatable to the majority of Americans (which does not mean you water them down, but express them in a way people can understand and accept). Unless, right now, OWS can convince the majority of people in this country that taking up arms and have a really violent revolution (because peaceful revolutions take much longer to work, but they can work) with no alternate system to put in place, nothing will change in the short term, and it seems OWS is demanding changes NOW! I just don't think they can do that because I don't believe that's what the majority of Americans want. The system we have right now is very complex, we can't achieve all we want all at once. But campaign finance reform, reinstatement of the Glass Stegall Act, removal of corporate personhood, severely restricting or even abolishing lobbying by large corporate interests (or any large group in general), abolishment of the electoral college and changes to current tax structure (leading to an entire reworking and simplification of the tax code in general, hopefully) just might be ideas that people can support- left or right. Start here, then move on the larger things. I think it has to be a step by step process if you want to do it right, if you want to make changes that will last, and we can't just go to the polls once and then snuggle back down into our easy chairs. We have to keep working, keep watching things with a sharp eye. If anyone want to really make changes that will last, they have to have the wherewithal not just to occupy a park for the winter months, but to "occupy" our government's actions with constant vigilance. The problems in our governmental system did not happen overnight- we could have protested long before now for the things we were having trouble with but didn't. Large corporations may have the means to contribute tons of money and fund candidates, but remove that and you automatically get a more level playing field, particularly of you accompany it with severe lobbying restrictions. Make it so that money- the money you have as a candidate or the money you can acquire through large corporate or group funding- is not the factor in people having the ability to run for office in this country. The laws that benefit the 1% didn't pop up overnight, it happened as a systematic dismantling of older laws that protected citizens from experiencing the things we are experiencing now. That can not be undone in one fell swoop. Keep working, keep trying, don't accept failure.
Neither am I, in fact, Anarchy it one of the most ridiculous concepts.
I agree with the single issue, it's not a total over hall, it's just a but of reform that removes the money from Washington.
This will go away if they don't get their act together.
Great. I finally found sensible people. 2012 is the opportunity but every day is being wasted.
I think you are making an important observation and I would be curious to hear your reactions to my thoughts about the need for OWS to evolve: http://occupywallst.org/forum/mobilizing-the-latent-support-of-millions-of-ameri/
I think we can achieve something big, but it will take a lot of reflection about the nature of leadership and our philosophy of democracy.
I totally agree this thing needs to evolve. It needs to get organized, it needs some sort of leadership group, it needs greater structure, a single message vision, actual goals, a strategy, etc... or it will fail.
One clear goal, already in progress, that simply needs to be amplified is the Boycott of the worst banks: http://occupywallst.org/forum/boycotts-have-real-power/
Praise to OWS ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpg76VjTa58
Democrats like Clintons, Cuomos and other blue dogs are not our friends. They are corporate puppets. Read about the democratic leadership council
http://www.thenation.com/blog/161507/feingold-netroots-nation-call-out-corporate-democrats
Yes, and so are the republicans. Both parties have completely sold out to special and corporate interest. Both parties have been purchased.
agreed. we need to research the candidates before we vote. NY got duped by Cuomo since he is corporate funded by the Koch Brothers. He still will not comment on his relationship with the Koch Brothers.
No, they are all purchased. You can't even get on the ballot without raising millions of dollars. Not only has every government official been purchased, but so has every single candidate. The process forces this to happen, which is why the process needs to be reformed.
Jon Stewart nails Donald Trump
It was the second segment of the Daily Show and you can watch it on his website. It was a brilliant response to an idiotic statement Donald trump made that of course the media published that claimed Jon Stewart made a racial remark about Herman Cain which Trump decided in all fairness should knock Jon off the air. To top it off there was also a reply to Ann Coulter who decided that right wing blacks were better than left wing blacks.
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Trump is a buffoon, and Coulter, she's just evil incarnate.
Coulter is just a good actor. All these people, Hannity, O'Reilly, no one can be that stupid.
http://thepurpletruth.blogspot.com/2011/11/purple-truth-does-lowering-taxes-on.html
People are getting together actual demands. For instance, there is a march tomorrow with the specific purpose for demanding a tax for rich people moving money around.
http://thepurpletruth.blogspot.com/2011/11/are-occupy-wall-street-protesters-bums.html
Too many issues, too many demands, and much of these demands target the symptom. We need to focus on the root cause, the corruption the political process. We need to focus on getting the money out of Washington. Try to accomplish everything and you'll end up accomplishing nothing.
OWS is only 1 month old and someone is already predicting its future. It's hilarious. How long does it take for a country to be constituted? Years? Decades? And OWS is not even one year old. This shows how short-sighted some people are. It is not a surprise that the work of OWS will take decades to do.
Yes, predicting it's future if it doesn't get it's act together. Yes. You are correct.
Tea Party's been around for a relatively short time, and it's already become just another tool in the arsenal of the republican party. In this age, things happen quick. Either you move forward of you become irrelevant. Also, this movement is losing would be supporters ever day, with it's formless, leaderless, anarchistic ways.
So, yes, is this trend continues, it won't survive.
ows forever.
Not at this rate.
OWS per se may fade away, but it's main goal has already been accomplished.
Millions of sympathizers across the nation and world have seen that they have something in common, they aren't isolated, and they have the power to change the narrative by organizing and taking action.
The main weapon of the oligarchy is our own apathy, despair and isolation.
If OWS goes under, it will be replaced by another wave of activism within a year or two.
I agree, it's a good start, but it needs to keep rolling forward, or we will all fall back to sleep.
I believe that critical mass was reached several weeks ago.
These things come in waves.
I hope you're right.
The Republicans have a right to take over the Tea Party, they, or the companies for which they are the stooges started it.
Yes, doomed I tell you.
doomed
doomed to fail, and fail it will if this doesn't get it's act together which it looks like it won't
Doomed to fail
Doomed to fail
Doomed to fail
doomed to fail
The problem is, there really needs to be a kind of awakening on the part of the majority of people to the fact that our whole interpretation of life (in as far as it is primarily greared towards aquisitian) is just wrong. Human beings aren't simply "consumers."
If we want - not only to survive but to have a life worth living, than we have to go beyond the crude, outdated, fear-based view of things to a higher interpretation of the possibilities of life. That is not "pie in the sky idealism," it is hard reality. We increasingly create the terms of life on earth; we need no longer make those terms intollerable.
Modern technical advancements render the old ideas of slavery and wage slavery obsolete. We must awaken to our full potential.
Maybe, but lets focus on one thing at a time. Get the money out of Politics and a lot of the other stuff will fix itself. Then after that we can see what's left.
Yes, I agree, "the journey of a thousand miles," as they say, "begins with a single step." But I feel that this time we simply cannot afford to stop stepping until everyone gets their head out of the video cloud and wakes up to realiity. Humanity is in very deep water.
That it is. In very deep water.
Having come across innumerable articles, blogs, and opinions on Occupy Wall Street and its supporting movements, the one recurring theme I keep hearing is that there are no leaders, there is no organization, and there are no goals we can point to. This blog hopes to end all that.
While not wanting to sound presumptuous, and knowing that leaders, organizations, and goals are indeed out there, theRevolutionCenter will list what we would like to see achieved, and hope that others will join us. At the same time we want to build a link with other sites and organizations who have different ideas, but who fight for the same cause.
If you want to read more then visit http://therevolutioncenter.com/?p=7709
That may work, that groups may splinter off and take charge of this thing. That is an option. Hope your group works. Don't agree with all of it, I think the singular focus should be on getting the money out of Washington, which is one of your key objectives. I just think this is the root cause, and some of the other stuff you list are the symptoms that will take care of itself, once the reform has been achieved.
But I would be on board with it. Because at least it's organized and focused on legitimate issues.
Have you heard of the organization, Move to Amend?
http://movetoamend.org/
Their sole focus is money out of government.
No, but I will check into it. Thanks.
Actually, I think I'm just going to start to look for things like this, rather than waste my time trying to change things in this mess.
I hear ya. I think the consensus process will doom OWS. Albuquerque requires 100% consensus so even the process has little hope of being modified.
But at least OWS has lit a spark in people. That alone is valuable.
Yes, that alone is valuable, but if they don't get their act together, it will be little more than an opportunity lost.
Formless - No it has a form, one that is hard to understand
Unorganized - Hardly, it's very organized
Leaderless - Important to stay that way, if it had a leader it would be already be dead.
Focus - Focus isn't their problem, it's yours. Pick your area, dimension whatever you want to call it and go. We need all of it. Healthcare, Financial, Anti War, ect...
You are incorrect, this thing is all over the place. It's like a confused dog with too many cars to chase.
Sorry, but anarchy doesn't work. It's a ridiculous idea, that doesn't work.
It's not anarchy. No single idea can reform a very complex broken system. No one can be an expert on financial reform and healthcare at the same time. We need both, all of it.
They are using anarchistic structure currently, but that doesn't mean the goal is anarchy. It's a defense mechanism to keep the movement alive. If it had demands and leaders it would be dead and buried by now.
Yes, one idea can. If you stop the flow of corporate and special interest money into Washington, and our government starts to focus on what's best for this country and it's people, then a lot of the other stuff goes away. There is a single root cause here, most of the other things are just symptoms, of this one root problem.
I'm not sure I agree with you on the anarchy issue. I think there is a large faction on this forum and involved in this movement, that would love to see anarchy adopted as the primary social and political structure of this nation. a ridiculous idea, but one they want to see occur.
And no, leadership would not spell the end of this movement, the anarchists would like you to believe that but it's not true. That's what they think, that's what anarchists think, but it's not true. Every great movement that has ever succeeded has had some form of organization and some form of leadership.
Oh I totally agree with you. If you stop that then the carry on effects would be there too. Corporation A has to stop dumping crap in your river because they can't buy off the government ect..
There are a lot of intentionally disruptive forces at work here. If the movement can be branded as anarchistic or communist that would be very destructive and while I am sure these people do exist a great deal of it I am really skeptical about.
But I don't think it actually lacks leadership and organization. It's organization is dynamic and open and is training/teaching a large number of people about being involved. It isn't making one cultish charismatic leader, it's making hundreds of practical ones. You could say it's leadership comes from a set of principles/ideas and I don't think that would be inaccurate. The same principle that calls for health care reform, financial reform ect... (and you are right all of these would be made easier by stopping special interest money)
If you look who started this, they have anarchistic leanings. Not that should matter much. People have tried to tell me that this means the movement must remain anarchistic, but I don't see it that way. I think this thing got much bigger than they ever imagines and is now out of their control.
You may be right about the training, and I think that should be part of it, but not the only part of it. I'm not saying abandon what every ones doing, I'm just saying there has to be more. This is going to be a struggle and we must use everything at our disposal.
[Deleted]
It's ok, go back to work. But that doesn't mean you or we have lost. Occupy is not just about a physical space, it's mental. Taking it with you is the victory.
I don't think we have already lost. But the end is somewhere out there.
They need leadership, they don't need a leader. The distinction matters. One is vesting power in an abstract role - that can be filled by any individual or group, with a mandate from the group, and with accountability to the group. The other is vesting the power in the individual - which is clearly not what anyone wants.
The whole working group decentralized retardation clearly has those two characteristics of leadership in mind.
Tragically, they forgot the most important characteristic: the ability to mobilize, coordinate, delegate, manage, and direct. You know. The ability to lead.
Yes, a leadership role, that can take the will of the group and act on it.
in a Direct Democracy, the people are the leaders, "leadership comes from the people" they identify the issues, set the solution options to vote after proposing them, and the vote becomes the Mandate......acted as policy or set to law.....the elected person is merely reserved in their day time job to make sure it is carried out...and if they do not carry it out.....the peoples mandate.....Recall Process deals with them swiftly.
Who wants to be elected President now......?
That is called changing the system for real.
Leaders are people who identify issues and propose solutions. That can be all of us only in a Direct Democracy.
This is exactly how the software and voting system is structured in the live ready for global use, Direct Democracy Voting system, with the added features for OWS leadership elections built in...for every town and city in the world.
There is a mobile version too!
Go ahead, try it out.
www.uponlocal.com
In a representative democracy, most of the same things apply. The only difference is if elected representatives carry out their mandate in good faith, the people go on living their daily lives.
in good faith <- THIS IS THE PORBLEME!
The problem is not with representative democracy as a system. The problem is that our elected representatives are not carrying out their mandate in good faith. There was never an incentive beyond "the honor system" for elected politicians to serve the public interest. In fact, allowing private financing of campaigns manufactures the incentive to serve private interests.
The system has a solution for that. I don't know if we've just been apathetic too long that we no longer remember, or what the Hell is going on, but the system has invested in us - We, the People? - the ability and the authority to fix the damn system. I just don't see why we aren't seizing that authority, right now.
To get back on topic: I take issue with your definition of "Leaders." Besides the fact that it is logically incoherent to say "we are all leaders" (and I know, you are just using it as a rhetorical device), the "leader" you're talking about isn't a leader. It's the entire population. Identifying issues is the responsibility of the entire organization. Proposing solutions is the responsibility of field experts. Leadership gets shit done.
The ability to identify issues can - and, in the case of Occupy, should - be invested in the GA. That's what GA should be for. Proposing solutions should be the job of the working groups, which should answer to the GA. Enacting those solutions - and mustering and coordinating the resources to enact all the solutions of all the working groups in an efficient manner - should be the job of leadership, which answers to both the GA and the working groups. It's this last step that is conspicuous in its absence. There is no organizational body right now that can coordinate resources between different working groups. Isn't that amazing? It's like a football team, where all 11 players just kind of run their own plays.
I understand that definition of Leadership too, I was raised by Frogmen...and I get stuff done.
You are referring to the Ground situation.....well, you must empower individuals then...and to do that, it has to be official...and to give official powers...you need to have an election to decide who can confer those powers...otherwise...you have a gang that delegates power and authority where it chooses...or a military type structure.
I once read a book, Dune... a passage come to mind...the call to cooperation identifies the healer...
is this what you mean...
otherwise what you need is commanders, warriors with field and tactics knowledge on how to motivate people to do the impossible.
All the same, i see the point...conspicuous in its absence...and ya, we noticed it too right away....
So we built some software to help you out, otherwise you folks could be gettin set up to fail...
The only thing I disagree with here is including me in their buffoonery. Because they don't want it, they don't want leadership. Because they're too scared of leaders. This cowardice is a problem that, right now, is endemic to this movement. All the talk about "power to the people" is bravado. They're scared of the media, they're scared of co-option, they're scared of themselves, and they're scared of each other. They don't understand that to realize "power to the people" is to take on these threats. That's why they're setting up to fail.
There's good news, though. I don't think this is the last effort to restore governance to the people. Whenever this cast breaks down or grows balls, I fully believe there will be a new movement - with the same ideology, but new and improved. With leadership.
what if, it was intended to just hang there in the air....waiting for something....like a tool waiting to be used...do you get that sense at all?
In our organization we call it "Situational Leadership." Works well.
It needs a full blown Direct Democracy voting system like the one built at www.uponlocal.com
the Ohio Vote was rigged, not by hacking, by the code being wrote from the start. watch court testimony.
http://uponlocal.com/up-on-local-media/content/stolen-why-you-want-direct-democracy-drupal
This system at UPonLocal is pure Open Source Drupal and has the safeguards as stated in the court testimony to prevent rigged votes.
The only system that they use to steal from us that matters other than the banks, fed, wall street, is the voting system. All we need is an honest voting system..we all know what to do when we get one.
That changes the system
They frustrated us for decades with rigged votes to the point we all forgot what the problem was. We all stopped voting...why bother.
With an honest voting system, good people would run for office. Bush would have lost...etc etc.
A voting system, move out of the park except for a small group and push hard on a new voting system with we the people as candidates.
There is a completed OWS leadership voting system in place....but we get no response to our emails...
Whats up?
We are moving ahead with or without. The Judge from Nashville was nominated on the site and people are voting and sending comments of support.
We are the only up and running Global / Fully Mapped Direct Democracy system developed. Volunteer, Become a Board Member Porpose and Issue, Develop a Solution, Nominate a Candidate.
See someone doing something good...nominate them for an office somewhere.
Our system covers every town city country in the world.
We worked very very very hard to make it, now we just want to give it away.
Take it, it was built for you all....well almost all... 99% of you anyway
We think this is the ultimate weapon against what is wrong.
A Transparent Voting system that high school students can check the code on for rigging.
How cool is that..cool enough for OWS?
I agree with the voting, but you still need a leadership group that can submit the issues for vote, that will compile the information, and then use the information to devise strategies for achieving the will of the people. Until some sort of organization and leadership group is in place, just voting is a lot like this forum. all over the place, and all talk and no action.
well, agree to vote, make it a binding vote...but I think you have a problem there where leadership is being obstructed somehow..
I don't claim to be highly knowledgeable on politics, but then again many average Americans who do care about America and vote are not totally up to par on all the ins and outs of our system and the issues either...That being said, as an average American who does not lean heavily right or left I too feel that if there is not more structure and possibly a leader that this movement may fade out. I may always support the movement but I need to feel like we are working toward some solid goals and have a strategy to successfully change the problems in our current system other than just stating we think it sucks and needs to change. In my humble opinion, there are several people who are equipped, and capable to be voted into leadership over this movement. However the leader MUST be chosen and voted in BY THE PEOPLE /supporters of OWS and EVERY final decision/goal/action presented by the leader MUST be approved BY THE PEOPLE first. I dont understand why some ows supporters see having a leader as detrimental if He/She is leading in TRUE democracy obtaining majority vote from the people before acting. I really dont want to see this movement die and I fear it may. However I dont feel that a third party candidate from the ows movement will have any real chance of winning until OWS has been maintained as a well organized group with clear purpose and goals allowing other Americans, not currently on board with the movement, to see the benefits of electing this third party leader. Just my thoughts...
I agree with you completely.
As for your question as to why they see it detrimental, I believe there is a large faction in this thing that are anarchistic in nature, and feel that all leaders eventually become corrupt. A silly notion.
Anyone can become corrupt and mislead, including the ones who started ows. We are all human and that is simply the risk you take. However I feel we have a FAR better chance of getting NON corrupt officials into the government if they spring from the platform of a movement that desperately desires true democracy for the 99%.
I agree, but we need to change the system first. Reform the system so that it rewards and promotes that do right by the people, instead of those who do right my the 1%. do that, and things will work themselves out.
Here's what I do. SCREWED AGAIN exposes big time crooks. This is the fire power I can give to OWS. Don't just sit in the park. Inform people with your computer skills. Get this story that the media is covering up out to Americans.
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Governor Corzine should be in prison right now
JUST FACTS INVESTIGATIONS Phone 203-612-1987
November 1, 2011
William B. Federman Partner Federman & Sherwood
Re: What’s baffling you to need a professor from OU to explain?
Dear Bill:
83 consecutive times, stratospheric bids from one trader bids up Treasuries each time in direct connection when the Dow would drop as little as 30 points. The mountain of trades all grouped together by one single trader. 83 consecutive times that trader created an artificial price.
Does a professor need to explain a fraud that is as blatant, vivid, and glaring as this to you? Does anybody need to explain that Nicole Brown Simpson didn’t die of old age, and didn’t commit suicide? Slashing open the throat and having the waiter from the restaurant stabbed alongside Nicole didn’t need to be explained by a pathologist to know it was a murder.
I find it amazing that if Corzine had used customers’ segregated funds at MF Global that any dumb ass accountant would have any trouble seeing that evidence move money on record. MF Global doesn’t have a huge tub with cash in it. Every dime at MF Global is put directly into a segregated account. What’s the CFTC, the CME, and the FBI doing? MF Global filed bankruptcy.
The ignorance in America is astounding. Why doesn’t your finance professor at OU know what I just wrote about MF Global? Daffy Duck could solve this. Maybe Corzine didn’t touch a dime but that’s what was just reported on CPTV. If Corzine grabbed money in any account then he should have cuffs on right now. Can you see how ignorant this is?
Regards, Steve
I suggest the OWS get registered on a secure server, login and start voting on a common claim, a condition that would make them move out of the occupated areas. Otherwise nothing can be done on the governement side to improve things since their is no formal claim.
Do it right and you have perfect direct democracy in the making...
Yes, there needs to be voting, but to do that you'll need some form of leadership to decide what needs to be voted on, to compile this information, and then to act on this information.
It's not until every one realizes that the only thing we agree on is to remove money and corporate influence from Washington that the OWS movement will move foreword. I am worried that people will never realize this and the OWS movement will just fade away.
Take your dumb ass politics out of it and stick to the original goal. The reason every one came out to protest in the first place.
Its bribes. Its not money.
Bingo. Exactly. But that's what leadership is. a leadership group needs to take control and say enough with all this garbage, here is the single issue, the single message, the single focus. They must control the message.
A leadership group who establishes a real voting forum with real issues... that is transparent and really speaks for the people it supposedly represents.
We are a democracy. I, for one, am a fan of democracy... when it's applied properly. Let's 1st show Washington how it's done... and come at them with both barrels.
But there needs to be a group who leads. To be the singular voice representing the many... because all I see on this page is indecision, confusion and chaos.
Yes, bingo, where is the voting structure. Right now people talk about stuff, but no one has the power to make decisions. Well actually that's not entirely true, someone is making decisions on this site. Also, yes you need a leadership group, that will set that up, decide on the items to be voted on, compile the information, make decisions off off of that information, etc...
agree, agree, agree. Thanks for displaying some sanity in this sea of chaos
I both agree with you and don't...
If the people can figure out that they don't need a leader. If they can figure out that they can speak for them self, It will be a lot more powerful then electing a leader and following them or having a leader speak for us.
( edit ) The problem is, can people figure it out ? Personally, i highly doubt it.
People can't, because we are all different. Watch a thousand parents raise a thousand children and what you'll see is a thousand different ways to raise a child.
Leadership gets everyone on the same page, moving in the same direction, and there's nothing wrong with that.
But we all agree on the issue. Your parent thing is a bad example, no offense.
The problem isn't that we agree or disagree. It's that people are stupid lol. They can't look outside of their own little bubble. They think that this is their own personal protest and every one agrees with every thing they say so they keep pushing for extras that no one agrees on... It's the reason the Occupy movement will fail. It's kind of amusing and sad at the same time. We have a chance for real change. Change that would not only make this country better but the entire world. People are just to stupid to see it.
Seems like a lot of people are pissed off at my comment... GOOD ! Now all you have to do is prove me wrong. The worst that could happen if you do is that we end up with a better country.
All of you are in a trance. None of you are stupid.
I don't think it was a bad analogy, look at this forum, literally a million ways and ideas.
I think leadership and organization gets everyone moving in a single direction.
I'd use a football analogy, but don't worry, I won't.
I agree with you that the OWS movement needs a leader. The protesters have proven that they are incapable of NOT inserting their own selfish agenda into these protests. The problem is, the leader will be those people that are capable of being a leader... And those people are the professional activists that will hijack this movement and turn it into a vote for Obama campaign.
That is a more likely outcome, and if so, what an opportunity lost.
It's sad but it was expected. It's not the first time people have risen up and couldn't progress foreword.
You are correct. Sometimes it works and sometimes it fails miserably.
Speak English and they'll have no trouble figuring it out.
BRIBES -- SQUANDERING MONEY
Well said TR289. Being mad at corporate greed is a waste of energy and resources. Washington has the lawmakers, the corrupted lawmakers. We must continue to vote in new batches of politicians until we get a group that cares about this country.
Being mad at corporate greed is not a waste. Corporate greed is the reason our country is so screwed up. That being said we need to take away corporate influence in Washington. We need to remove the money and lobbyists and take back our government.
It's just my opinion, if we don't do those 2 things then anything the OWS movement may accomplish will mean nothing. The elite will just throw piles of money at our politicians and keep the game rigged in their favor.
I'll gladly help you keep this on the top.
Thanks. I know it's lame, but it was the best I could come up with.
I feel like I'm just a guy with a bucket on the Titanic.
But maybe you can do more. If you can please, please do. This single issue is important.
Just need to keep this up at the top
same thing
Back to the top
It just did. The next battle is to hurt them. Close your bank account. They lose!
Well said. I agree 100%. Please review my past posts. I'm fully engaged in OWS and want to help steer it in an effective direction. Letting the Democrats take hold of this movement would be catastrophic to our country. Both sides are equally corrupt. I'm so happy to see America wake up, I just hope we don't fall back asleep under the thumb of the government.
Well said as well. I am also terrified of either outcome. But I truly believe, if this thing doesn't get organized, one of the two will happen.
"If one studies cultures and history carefully, even organizational structures such as corporations, there appears to be a fundamental issue with scale: the larger a human organizations get the less democratic and more problematic they become. I believe that the Hopi even had a specific number of people, a population cap, which determined how big a village could grow before they broke from one another.
If we can step beyond the avatars of corporate power brokering, or the fundamentally flawed Two Party system in the United States, this could be the core discussion which unites the disenfranchised within each here. When we are given only two choices, we can’t call it democracy. The US Federal Government, Free Trade agreements, the European Union, OPEC, the World Bank, G8, even the United Nations — each suffers from their scale, yet within the current corporate centered global culture each serves a need. If the Corporation didn’t rule the world we might not need such power brokerage."
http://notetoanon.com/2011/11/01/occupy-decision/
If you form a singular leader then the entire movement will be easier to dismantle. If they are able to smear mud and take skeletons out of one man's closest to discredit the entire OWS, by making a singular leader would alow them to do this. Power corrupts totally and one person as the leader of such a powerful movement would be seduced by power as is human nature. If you keep the OWS as a community, open forum, 100% democratic "committe" then there is flexability within the methods for the movement. For the powers that be will use every means to coherce and taint the people of the movement. If you give them one target, a leader, then it will fall. There are too many issues in the world that are affecting everyone of the movement. You can't just pidgeon hole the OWS to ONE singular cause. This is not the 60's where the end to the War was the major concern. Times were far simpler than they are now. The people as a whole have let government go too far and there are too many issues that need to be addressed to focus on ONE. They all affect eachother like a spiders web. Each strand of corruption must be cut. If you focus on only one strand you will be entangled in the web and lost.
Doesn't need to be a single person, but at least a leadership group. I take the opposite view, no leadership, no organization, easier to co-opt, easier to destroy.
And yes, there is a single cause, at least there was when this thing began, not anymore, and that's just one of the problems with this thing.
No, again, there is single root cause, fix that and the symptoms will take care of themselves.
!) there is a single root. power, in the form of obscene wealth, consolidated in the hands of the 1%. Take away their wealth, take away their power, return it to the 99%, and then the corrupt Plutofascist Corporate police-state will be unmade.
2) One leader is easier to co-opt than a group, and group is easier to co-opt, than a democratic plurality of all humans.
We elect leaders, they decapitate the Movement. We adopt a single issue, they co-opt the issue. By doing neither, we rob of their two favorite tactics, co-option and coercion.
Do not agree with either 1 or 2.
and by the way, if we don't elect leaders, then this thing will definitely be co-opted by the Democratic Party. If we don't find a leadership group, the will provide one for us.
By the way, just curious, do you agree with Anarchy?
I'm not an anarchist. Not by a long shot. And the Democrats can't possibly co-opt the movement, because the movement is international, in hundred of cities around the globe where there are no American Democrats.
I was just wondering. If you say you are not than that is good for me.
Now while they may not be able to touch the other movements around the globe, they will push hard to take over the movement in this country. It's what they do, it's how they work. Right now the Democratic party is literally salivating at the prospect that they just might get their very own grassroots movement, their very own tea party.
Bullshit. They're afraid. They are paid lackeys of the 1%, just like their Republican cohorts. We're coming for them. Their time is up.
They are not afraid, they, unlike this movement are well organized and well funded and have been doing this for a long, long time. Look at what they have been able to accomplish up to this point. To underestimate them would be a gross miscalculation.
Trust me, they aren't even beginning to worry yet, to them, OWS is yet but another opportunity to maintain the Status-Quo.
If they were not afraid, they would not be using armed police to harass peaceful protestors.
That's just local officials doing their job. Has nothing to do with the 1%.
Trust me, they aren't scared, they know how easily distracted and apathetic we are.
Wrong again. "Local officials" do get the Department of Homeland Security thugs to intimidate peace protestors on American soil. Google "DHS, Occupy Nashville" for more information.
Listen, police forces, homeland security forces that show up are just doing their job. Trust me, the real threat is take over from within, and if OWS continues like they are, they're going to become just another part of the system, in the Democratic side.
Sorry, they are not scared, they are barely amused, and as always, looking hard to figure out how to capitalize on this development.
If the 99% rose up with a unified voice and actually addressed the real issue, we would most likely see that the power is still in our hands.
Yelling at Wall Street, the 1% or whatever accomplishes nothing. They didn't break any laws. They operate inside the guidelines the government has given them. Do they behave badly? Yep. But they're only exercising the freedoms bestowed upon them.
You want them to stop buying the politicians? Change the laws that allow them.
You want GE to start paying taxes... and stop receiving 1.3 BILLION dollar tax benefits? Change the laws that allow them.
How do we create change in such a corrupt system?
We stand up, together, and look at the keepers of the system and demand it.
They work for us, remember. Not the other way around.
Start aiming this at Washington rather than Wall Street and watch how quickly the media perks up, watch how quickly the mocking stops, watch how quickly Obama and other key players start taking it seriously.
How do we change the laws when they own the politicians? Do we just change by willing it? No we have to take the power back, by setting up and alternative to their power structure. We opt out of their Hierarchical, Vertical, ponzi-power scheme, and opt into a horizontal, inclusive, power structure. Solidarity over consolidarity!
We openly, uniformly demand it. We inundate their mail boxes, the mail room... all of it. We write letters to the editor. We post tweets and Facebook alerts. We canvass wih petitions.
I watched this method work in NY as true blue conservatives stood in front of the media and confessed the reason they changed their vote was because their constituents demanded it.
Regardless of the current corruption, this is still a democracy. It was built around popular opinion and the voice of the people.
Problem is, the people are saying so many things right now that it equates to saying nothing at all.
We need to petition the representatives of the people before we try anything else because anything else will be futile. If it doesn't work? I mean, we get billions of people flooding Washington's communication channels and they continue to ignore us?
Well, then I'm up for whatever alternative comes to the forefront.
But we have to try before we declare it won't work.
You're wrong. This is absolutely NOT a democracy. This is a neo-feudalistic, plutofascist corporate police-state. Plutocracy is not democracy.
Our uniform demands would be ignored as they have been since 2008, our letters will go unread, as will our tweets, and FB posts, and petitions. These things are distractions and they are only allowed to exist because they serve the will of the 1% for now.
Their cannot be negotiation when one party has ALL the power. and they have it, until we take it back via civil disobedience and guerrilla civilization building.
Well. At least we tried.
My goodness. You make it sound like we are impoverished, women raped in the streets by the militants, houses raided and burned, people starving from poverty by the millions.
There are countries like the ones I just outlined. We, and our pampered, spoiled selves are not one of them.
You're suggesting we trash our rooms and throw tantrums until we get a raise in our allowance essentially.
I won't tell you what I think of that.
Tone-def argument. People are losing their homes at a record pace and being forced into the streets. People are having to chose between medical care for their kids and eating/having a house. Americans work longer hours than any Western country, for lower pay, and fewer benefits. productivity in the United States has risen 400% since 1979...wages have risen 18%. I am not looking for more allowance...I am looking for sanity and equity and to take the power out of the hands of the plutocracy and return it to us.
I don't deny that there isn't need for change, but we are not a truly oppressed group of people over here, c'mon now.
Part of the problem IS the people. We are a nation of instant gratification seekers. This mindset must change before we can form an affective movement. People demanding basic living wages, increased social handouts, higher education for free... Well they only piss off people like me who did the work, paid my dues and bought a modest home on my income at 36.
The system is broken, but we cannot look to walk street to correct it. What's in it for them? I want this movement to give me something I believe in so I can stand up and fight with you...
I'll wait until it happens.
They are squandering our money. They are taking bribes. We will keep losing until we elect a 3rd ;party in 2012.
Yes, but so long as the system and environment exists, where only those that can raise millions get elected, and those that due the bidding on special interest get to stay, then what does it matter if there are third party candidates? They'll just get purchased like the rest, because you can't get elected without taking money, and you can't stay in the congress if you don't do the 1%'s bidding. This isn't rocket science here.
They've already purchased both parties, what makes you think they just won't purchase a 3rd party as well.
You need to remove the money so that they can't purchase anyone. Then you can support a third party.
The lady from CA proved money didn't get her elected. There are other examples including CT senate race.
Forget the dumb cliches.
Like I said before, some might be able to sneak in under the radar, but they won't be able to survive or make any kind of real difference. The system is designed to promote and reward those that play by the rules. If you don't you'll either be booted in the next election, when either party throws millions behind you opposition, or you'll just languish in the congress, as the marginalize you.
The system needs to be reformed so that those who do right by the people are promoted and rewarded. The system needs to change first.
for anyone to offer advice to this group seems pretty bold to me. these people have done something i have not seen for 40 yrs - i will help them in any way i can and encourage them to keep doing what they think is best. for all of those who seem to know better - why didn't you start your own movement. as far as i can tell their idea of occupying the space of the 99% seems brilliant. no need to do more than that - they have made politicians and news media begin to talk about the divide in this country in a way that hasn't happened since vietnam - keep it up
No, your right, lets not offer advice and allow them to shoot themselves in the foot. Why didn't I? I don't have the skill or resources. By the way, who did start this movement? Do you know? The answer might surprise you, and their agenda might surprise you as well.
as far as i know adbusters put out the call months ago - would not be surprised by anything except the people on this forum trying to tear down this movement - i assume they are all being paid to do such nonsense but it is sad
Adbusters and what seems like an anarchistic movement. anarchy isn;t good.
and exactly what would you know about anarchy - have you read chomsky - if not you need to - pick the subject and google it and you will learn something
What I know about Anarchy is that it has to be the silliest form of organization ever conceived. It is a ridiculous notion.
then you haven't read chomsky or anyone but mainstream sources etc i assume - correct? you should do a bit of research before you jump in - unless you are one of those people paid to cause trouble - then keep it up
Listen, I'll never be convinced that anarchy is a good system. I don't care who promotes it, who wrote it etc...
you still should read orwell about spain - his best work and chomsky is extremely informative on so many subjects
did i send this reply already - i am getting tired but i am glad you have had this discussion with me - too much of this forum is ranting - not helpful. so if you know what anarchism is can you describe it to me? i think that may be the problem with our little debate here - we have different definitions. one big question is can you have a government with out the state - i think you can do you? do you know the difference? you know what human nature is? human nature is pretty tricky don't you think. have you read much of chomsky? are you for real democracy - and against hierarchy - i agree that smaller more local communities within some larger federation is required for real democracy (read anarchism here) - you brought up the iroquois and i think they are a good example of what i am thinking - a very free and open society - i am sure you know what the first europeans said about their way of life. they had a governmental organization but no real state. things would be much more difficult with society today but i do not see why we shouldn't move towards real democracy - certainly i am not saying that we can get there tomorrow. resource scarcity will move us there eventually and that will be ugly.
Not sure what you are asking, but as humans assemble into larger numbers, they tend to gravitate towards greater organization.
I don't think human nature is tricky at all, in fact it's very predictable.
As the group gets larger complexity increases, and this is seen everywhere in all times, with people completely separate. Now it's been a long time since I went to school for this, but the numbers were something like this.
25-50, band society, 100-500, tribe 500-5000? Chiefdom and 10,000 and greater, the state appears, Independent of the others, it just forms, it natural, expected.
Now these things just don;t form over night so there are transitional forms, and I can't remember because I did this a long time ago, but the Iroquois nation just might be a transition from the tribe or chiefdom state to the regular state, it might just be a snap shot of this transitional period. But don't quote me on this, I learned this stuff back on the 90's.
So, where ever you find 2025 you always find the band, and where ever you find 10,000+ you find the state. The only exceptions tend to be when something radical has occurred and a transition is taking place.
Not sure if this answers you.
your opinion about the state is probably the mainstream one but it is still an opinion and not fact - if you are incorrect then anarchism is a viable option - again i think you should look into it more before dumping too hard on this philosophy. it is really all pointless, of course, we are quite a way from any type of mainstream democracy much less any form of radical democracy - of the type put in place briefly in spain or even northern italy post ww2
I look at History, and I can't find any evidence of it working beyond the hunter gather band. So, what ever.
no it did not answer my main - there is a difference between the government and the state - in chile allende had control of the government but not the state - the state killed him! gotta go those grandchildren are bugging me again
I guess i think the two go hand an hand, with the state comes government, and without the state, that form of government becomes obsolete. Of course the state can always rebel against the government, plenty of evidence of that in history.
not rtying to convince you but you do not really know what it is - the american indians were very much anarchists (i think anyway). read orwells book - homage to catalonia to get an idea. orwells story of his time in spain during the civil war - good book - he had planned to fight in a communist brigade but ended up in an anarchist one - the movie land and freedom tells the same story basically - the book is better (to coin a phrase)
Only the small individual bands, consisting of 25-75 people, could operate in this fashion. Once you get to a larger organization, like the Iroquois nation, it starts to look a lot like what we have now in this country, a representative democracy. You just can't get a large group of people to pull in the same direction without some form of organization, without some form of leadership. It doesn't work.
As for those small bands of Native Americans, they did well to maintain there existing way of life, but they never really progressed and were eventually whipped out by those who did. Ain't saying it was right, but that's definitely how it turned out. Without some form or organization and leadership you can't move forward, you just sit in the same old spot, falling behind until you falling so far behind you become irrelevant.
that is correct - no one is saying that you should not have organization - the iroquois is a good example. do you think they were not anarchists - do you think that the chief could order someone to war? do you know the difference between the gov't and the state? this is where you are relying on mainstream opinion of anarchism - bomb throwing chaos. as i said before read orwell - watch naomi klein's movie -the take - organization wth out leaders is possible and has happened - worker control of industry is possible - no bosses! anarchism means no rulers not no rules or organization.
so if you know what anarchism is can you describe it to me? i think that may be the problem with our little debate here - we have different definitions. one big question is can you have a government with out the state - i think you can do you? do you know the difference? you know what human nature is? human nature is pretty tricky don't you think. have you read much of chomsky? are you for real democracy - and against hierarchy - i agree that smaller more local communities within some larger federation is required for real democracy (read anarchism here) - you brought up the iroquois and i think they are a good example of what i am thinking - a very free and open society - i am sure you know what the first europeans said about their way of life. they had a governmental organization but no real state. things would be much more difficult with society today but i do not see why we shouldn't move towards real democracy - certainly i am not saying that we can get there tomorrow. resource scarcity will move us there eventually and that will be ugly.
No, I really don't want to pull this card out, but I'm a Cultural Anthropologist. People, social organization is what I do. I know what Anarchism is, and it's just not a good system, especially once you get beyond 100 people.
It has nothing to do with mainstream views. Throughout all human History, the more people you get into a group, the greater it organizes itself. From hunter gathers, to tribes, to chiefdom, to the state. This is not something devised, but because it happens every time, the same way, it is not only human nature, but it works.
I would love to see the movement support specific legislation and offer its own. For example, while I feel that President Obama's Jobs Bill is a small step in the right direction, supporting it seems like a step toward building concrete momentum where it can actually effect change.
Just a thought. I may be part of the 99%, but I'm behind you 100%!
I don't agree with supporting anything that comes out of Washington, not until Washington is reformed. Our government is broken, like all legislation that passes through the house and senate, special interest will carve it up so that it becomes little more than a money grab, that does little to create jobs but is a windfall for special interest. That's all anything becomes now. Both parties have been purchased. The system needs reform.
If this movement has a defined leader it will have a defined target.It does need direction but first it needs to show people how angry we are and how like a storm we are building. Why do you think MLK was killed? He was a perceived figure head. I would recommend a forum vote about the direction or even better a popular vote because that is what the fight is about.
The "hey! We're really mad" point has been made. In the beginning weeks, you could see the fear on certain key people's faces over the outcry this "movement" made.
Now? Not so much. Indepat is absolutely correct, it needs some true solidarity. I've said it a million times, I'll say it again:
both sides of the fence agree getting money out of Washington is the ticket.
But... the more special interests you pick up under the Occupy umbrella, the greater chance you take of alienating large groups of people.
This movement is not the place to address free higher education or other social handouts, health insurance, save the Earth, hydrofracking...
By picking up these areas as "causes" under this movement... you create too much debate within the movement itself as well as outside.
Focus on Washington. Re-write the codes and laws that allow Wall Street to behave this way. Put limits on campaign donations.
This is not a civil rights movement. Nowhere is it written that corporate greed is against the law... in fact, it laws have been interpreted to allow for it. Comparing any of this to MLK's cause is moot. I wish people would stop doing that.
So what. Sure, MLK was assassinated, but the civil rights movement was different.
Leadership, organization, nothing else will suffice.
up again
And again
one more time
one more time
Form many factions, many hierarchies. Let OWS be the 'unified front' that gives a common purpose. Let the socialist, libertarian, anarchist, and green factions set their own goals and actions. Free association will cause the best factions to rise, and multiple factions will make it co-opt proof. If anyone gets disillusioned with a faction, they can find a better one rather than give up on the movement. Spread this message, this has to be our doctrine.
The fragmentation that would come with that will be this movement's doom. And its too late for that anyway. OWS is what it is. They are all Occupiers. Period.
Therefore: you share in each other's triumphs and suffer in each other's failures. It's the mere definition of solidarity. You can't go around saying "well, yeah... the anarchists are crazy, but I"m not part of that occupy group..." It simply doesn't work that way.
Heck no. I have to disagree. The single issue is none of those things.
They are squandering our money. They are taking bribes. We will keep losing until we elect a 3rd ;party in 2012. No more weapons. The foreign policy is crazy. There is no OWS message.
This government is crazy. To ignore that by OWS is stupid. Listen to me and we'll win the 2012 election by a landslide. Our message will destroy their money.
Let there be a full working staff ready to occupy the White House. Let us know who will be in the Cabinet, who will be our Ambassadors to other nations - and the UN. Presidential and VP candidates can be selected by a national OWS consensus. What would be the name of our Party?
The easy way to do this would be using the Green Party as it is the most recognizable to OWS. Stevev Colbert would be Secretary of State, Jon Stewart, President. All foreign nations would be entertained and that would eliminate any need for a Defense Secretary. The shows would be at the UN for all the diplomats.
I wrongly assumed that you were serious about your msg, which I responded to in kind. I won't make that mistake again
Please help spread my blog post letter to Attorney Bill Federman after you read it. Maybe that will help OWS.
Using the power of OWS constructively now is critical. Letting OWS keep floundering with no leadership will be a disaster. I am much better informed than all the OWS people put together because I have 40 + years of experience.
Anybody who wants to try me on for size is welcome.
I am dead serious about my message. I can't make a 1 hour speech in a post on a forum. I intend to make you tubes to put on my blog that will explain my points. There are a series of points which need to be in context and no one will read this, they need to hear it. See the letter I just posted on my blog.
I can get elected to Congress in 2012 and it would be in the interest of OWS to help me do that, because I will gladly rip the shit of the entire Congress from the day I get in office. The timing now is perfect. I've been waiting to do this for a long time. -- read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
dead serious about this msg "using the Green Party as it is the most recognizable to OWS. Stevev Colbert would be Secretary of State, Jon Stewart, President. "???
"All foreign nations would be entertained and that would eliminate any need for a Defense Secretary."?????
No one here would ever take you seriously after that - even if was a joke - this forum is not a joke -
That was a joke.
you're a joke
I'm a joke and you're an asshole.
Here's what I do. SCREWED AGAIN exposes big time crooks. This is the fire power I can give to OWS. Don't just sit in the park. Inform people with your computer skills. Get this story that the media is covering up out to Americans.
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Governor Corzine should be in prison right now
JUST FACTS INVESTIGATIONS Phone 203-612-1987
November 1, 2011
William B. Federman Partner Federman & Sherwood
Re: What’s baffling you to need a professor from OU to explain?
Dear Bill:
83 consecutive times, stratospheric bids from one trader bids up Treasuries each time in direct connection when the Dow would drop as little as 30 points. The mountain of trades all grouped together by one single trader. 83 consecutive times that trader created an artificial price.
Does a professor need to explain a fraud that is as blatant, vivid, and glaring as this to you? Does anybody need to explain that Nicole Brown Simpson didn’t die of old age, and didn’t commit suicide? Slashing open the throat and having the waiter from the restaurant stabbed alongside Nicole didn’t need to be explained by a pathologist to know it was a murder.
I find it amazing that if Corzine had used customers’ segregated funds at MF Global that any dumb ass accountant would have any trouble seeing that evidence move money on record. MF Global doesn’t have a huge tub with cash in it. Every dime at MF Global is put directly into a segregated account. What’s the CFTC, the CME, and the FBI doing? MF Global filed bankruptcy.
The ignorance in America is astounding. Why doesn’t your finance professor at OU know what I just wrote about MF Global? Daffy Duck could solve this. Maybe Corzine didn’t touch a dime but that’s what was just reported on CPTV. If Corzine grabbed money in any account then he should have cuffs on right now. Can you see how ignorant this is?
Regards, Steve
I don't think you understand what I'm suggesting. Let me put it this way - OWS could support a Team who are on one candidate's 3rd party ballot in the 2012 election.
People would know who will be occupying the White House with him/her in the Oval Office
Do we know how many OWS members there are now in every state, who could sign petitions to put this OWS 3rd party candidate on the ballot? We would have to start acting fast to organize it. As you say on your website: If OWS fails to nominate candidates for the 2012 election, this protest is a monumental waste of time. Sitting in the park whining and demanding is howling at the moon. Depending on a bribed government for justice or anything fair is idiotic. OWS is throwing in a pat hand. The entire congress and Obama are taking bribes. That is the main event......
I would be the first OWS candidate in CT 4th district. That would set the stage for the entire country as the campaign developed. Its popularity would grow as we used a web site, and other internet facilities to allow our development expand exponentially. We would be in full gear by March or April to completely destroy the crooks.
We will use the truth with tons of evidence to publish the real deal. That will include destroying the main stream media propaganda arm for the crooks.
You're welcome to your opinion no matter how wrong it may be. I approve of your thread, but you still have a lot to learn.
How so? Please, educate me.
You haven't listed what exactly your problem is with my post. I listed the reasons why my doctrine was a good idea, you didn't even contradict any of them. The logic table is as follows: 1 hierarchy, many hierarchies, or no hierarchy. You have opposed 'no hierarchy,' and now 'many hierarchies,' so therefore you must be for 1 hierarchy. Firstly, it can be co-opted by the power elite, secondly it can be smeared and distorted by the media, and thirdly if anyone gets fed up with it they will drop out of the movement. Many hierarchies addresses all of these by having different leaders, different specific goals, and different platforms. This means broader appeal, free association, and being impossible to co-opt as it leaves it down to individuals which platform they support.
I did, but just because I disagree, doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong, or it doesn't mean I don't understand what your views are. I just don't agree that that form on movement will work.
Yes, one hierarchy, he way pretty must everything else is structured, at least the things that work.
All your fears of being co-opted, smeared, etc... exist no matter what form this takes. In fact, this movement is already being co-opted by the liberal left, democratic machine.
I again disagree with the whole broader appeal thing.
I just have a different opinion, not calling you stupid, or uneducated. And I'm neither just because I disagree with your premise.
No, you're just stupid because you can't offer a counter argument or back your position up with anything substantive.
The one argument I did spot in there was that it should be one hierarchy 'because that's how everything else is.' An appeal to the status quo. Pretty weak. If we're just going to do everything the way it has been done, why are we out here? If you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always gotten.
You can disagree all you want but if you can't even offer counter arguments or refutations you might as shut up and let the adults do the thinking.
The counter argument is that this free form, leaderless crap doesn't work, never has, never will.
Not how things are, it's how things that actually get things done is organized. Big difference. Your anarchistic structure doesn't work. It's stupid and ridiculous. But you run with this and continue to be part of the faction that will kill this movement.
and yes, you're an adult I'm sure. I'm sure you've been on this earth long enough to gain vast amounts of wisdom through your extensive experience.
Very funny. "Let adults do the thinking". or we could let you do the thinking and run this thing into the ground.
The professional protestors are having a ball looking screwy. That makes them happy.
I'm not a leader, I'm a bulldog looking for a leader. But if I was running it, I'd be doing a damned sight better than anything the sociopaths and cockroaches are doing. You have completely failed to understand the point of multiple factions, and there's no hope you're going to get it any time soon.
Here, educate yourself about the united front strategy. It is the doctrine that accepts that not everyone will agree, and will have their own ideologies and platforms that they follow, but that they can work together to achieve a revolution over the status quo, which is EXACTLY what OWS needs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Front
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_front#Popular_fronts_in_non-Communist_countries
You don't understand that multiple factions, or what ever you call it, doesn't work. If it did, it would exist in some form, somewhere.
Good luck though Bull Dog. Got one myself, a nice breed of dog. Not too bright though.
Yeah, I just wonder when in history a lot of groups have worked together towards common goals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Party_System
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_United_Front_%28China%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_%28Spain%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Unity_%28Chile%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_%28France%29
If only one had ever existed in practical fact! Oh, what a world. I guess I'm just too stupid, me and my head in the cloud concepts with no basis in reality. If only I were smart enough to bring no facts or arguments to the table like Indepat.
Okay moron, run along now. Thanks for proving you're an intellectual bankrupt. :)
By the way, it's 'their words, not mine,' not 'there words.' Grade schooler.
With people like you in the majority I'm more than happy to stand aside and watch this thing self-destruct. Even as you bitch about that very thing, you contribute to the meltdown.
All I see are left wing, communist socialist movements, (There words, not mine), that are no longer in existence, and that in many cases wither lost or got co-opted, which I'm pretty sure proves my original point, which is, if this remains like this it will either fail on it's own or be co-opted by the Democratic party.
Thanks for proving me correct.
Now move along puppy dog and get moving on your communist socialist movement. As for me, I kind of like the system we have, I just want it reformed.
The logic of no platform, no organization, and no goals being conducive to strengthening the movement, is fantasy. Indepat is correct. Unless this movement finds a real voice soon, it is doomed.
Absolutely. OWS must focus on electing a 3rd party to blow those bastards taking bribes out of DC and into prison.
BRIBES -- BRIBES -- BRIBES
Logic is never fantasy. If it's a fantasy then it's a logical fallacy. In this case you would be accusing me of a false dichotomy in my truth table, and you should articulate that if that's what you believe.
Furthermore, I don't think you are understanding this conversation. I'm the one advocating platforms, organizations, and goals. No one in here, as far as I know, is advocating a lack of organization as a source of strength.
Autism POWER!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRmkCF48iGM
What I am saying is that, good or bad, all successful movements have had a specific, and describable goal. MLKjr advocated desegregation. They killed him when he moved to social justice. The protests of the 60's wanted to end the Vietnam war. Prohibition, despite being a really bad idea, had a very focused goal, i.e. the 18th amendment. The original Russian revolution simply wanted bread. OWS seems to want a whole goody bag of Utopian ideals, most of which are unrealistic. Until they pick a place to start, a real singular goal, they will become irrelevant.
Sorry, let me edit Philpux's post:
It is illogical to think that no platform, no organization, and no goals is conducive to strengthening the movement. Indepat is correct. Unless this movement finds a real voice soon, it is doomed.
Way to say almost the exact same thing while still being completely wrong. Good job. Try again when you turn 18 and have a grasp on reading, maybe?
I'm 40 and understand that chaos only breeds chaos. I'm unsure of your reading comprehension as you apparently don't get that this forum... and your multifaceted faction theory... are chaotic... at best.
Your insults fall on deaf ears. I can throw verbal daggers too. Quite proficient at it, actually.
But that attitude gets you nowhere, really. A mature grown up knows these things.
oh. And I notice you ignored my response to another post that was full of substance and counter arguments.
But that's ok. I'm not really offended. You're not someone I care to "share" ideas with, I don't think.
Enjoy being a 'mature' 'civil' 'grown up' while the movement disintegrates and the chance is gone forever. Here, you can follow these guys. I bet they never insult anyone. Flowery language sociopaths are loved by 'civil' 'moderates' like you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa6U-K24BY0
Bonus Round:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOh-rpvjYg
Get over yourself. You don't insult me. There's a million people in the world just like you, I learned how to sleep at night regardless of the crap they spew. Trust me.
If you read all my posts, you'd see that I have no hopes of this movement accomplishing anything, as is. I'm pretty sure this is going to burn out and fade away, to be perfectly honest.
I am, however, hopeful that the conversation will continue on some forum or another and a better organized, less chaotic, focused on actual change action will start. As opposed to the misguided masses and shit slinging bullies that I find over and over again in these pages.
HERMAN CAIN has 9-9-9
OWS has bribes -- bribes -- bribes
Give the propaganda that clear message NOW.
Both Herman Cain and OWS follow the same plan -- the NEIN NEIN NEIN plan. Just say no and shake your head to everything until everyone forgets about you.
They are squandering our money. They are taking bribes. We will keep losing until we elect a 3rd ;party in 2012. No more weapons. The foreign policy is crazy. There is no OWS message.
This government is crazy. To ignore that by OWS is stupid. Listen to me and we'll win the 2012 election by a landslide. Our message will destroy their money.
agreed...here is how we get the thing organized...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPR3GlpQQJA
I have been active here since the very beginning, and since the very beginning I have been trying to make some core points. These points clearly have not been digested or fully understood by the mob, and so I'm going to try to make a further attempt here again.
For these reasons, I beg of you to please immediately join me on the wiki. We need to have all of these details and all of these ideas put together in an organized fashion, rather than posted in a long scrawl which will never be read.
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY
http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=CMbY87bB-qsCFUPt7Qod9HE8mQ
http://maplight.org/us-congress/guide/data/money?9gtype=search&9gkw=list%20of%20campaign%20donations&9gad=6213192521.1&9gag=1786513361&gclid=CP61oYbB-qsCFQFZ7AodcTF0jw
http://www.opensecrets.org/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/our-new-wiki/
http://occupywallst.org/forum/non-violence-evolution-by-paradigm-shift/
Ok. I didn't read all of this, but I read about half.
I don't think revolution is necessary. Revolution implies a much grander change than is really required.
We are a democracy. The people can make change happen, even by sitting in their living room and sending emails.
If we all sit and send the same email at once... over and over and over again. Then we go out and tell our neighbor this is what we're doing. we post it on Facebook, Tweet about it, write letter's to the editor. Educate everyone that we're not petitioning, but demanding Washington cut ties with Wall Street.
I know, it sounds a whole lot like Alice's Restaurant... but by god, that stuff works. I watched it happen in NY with gay marriage.
Democracy isn't dead. It just hasn't been truly exercised in a long, long time.
no, we have the vestigal organs of a democracy, we are an actual corporate oligarchy, and by law a democratic republic; a patent form of oligarchy.
OWS is controlled by fools in a trance and they refuse to listen to a strategy that will work. We could win elections in 2012 but not by sitting the park, whining.
agreed
We need to gang up and bombard these fools to listen. If we can get them to invite me, I will speak. They invited Glenn Greenwald to speak on 11/8 for 2 hours but he is going to pander to the nonsense.
They are adamant about being stupid and self destructive. Corbert did a great skit on it yesterday. See it on his website.
Don't wait to be invited, invite your self. Force your self on these people.
Or is there a way others can help you get invited? How can we force that?
I tried 6 times. By the time I left I was disgusted with the process.
Well how can we help? Is there something we can do?
I need an invite to speak for an hour. Then I will take questions for as long as they want. If that fails, I'll quit trying. I'm asking you to try to get the GA to invite me.
Okay, I'll try. But in this forum, things just get lost in this sea of Chaos.
We must deal with the hand dealt.
Political correctness has suspended the English language
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Liars are called -- flip floppers. Bribes are called -- corporate money, donations, contributions. Bag nen are called -- lobbyists. Propaganda has put Americans into a deep trance that protects the crooks who take the bribes (Obama and congress) and the scammers who pay the bribes (corporate executives).
The only remedy that will work for OWS will be to nominate candidates and campaign to get them elected which will be absolutely guaranteed in 2012 because at least 70% of the American voters are pissed off. The trance was created by media propaganda that is obvious every day if people will look for it. OWS people are in the same trance that all other Americans have been put under. That trance has nothing to do with intelligence. The huge problem that must be remedied is to first consider that stupid, self destructive behavior must be caused by something, so let's consider the trance that manipulates intelligent people to use "political correct" language.
Still don't think we should do with elected officials before the system is reformed. Reform the system, then repopulate.
You absolutely want to put your underwear over your clothes. You sound silly.
Reforming criminals is done by putting them in prison. Criminals are not given more opportunities to rip us off. Bribes are crimes.
You write like this is nursery school and the children aren't taking their nap.
No, it's you who wants to put your underwear over your clothes. Changing the players won't matter if they have to play by the existing rules. The rules must change first. Horse before the cart, not the other way around.
And your starting to sound like a raving lunatic.
You're starting good; consider it an official warning for the personal attacks.
Threatening me will never work. I'm not a liberal.
I can also act, don't make me.
I'm scared.
The liberals are in a trance and I can't figure out how to snap them out of it. I know they aren't stupid but what they are doing is beyond stupid.
They are afraid to lose an election because it is final. They can sit in the park forever and whine but they can omit the reality of potential failure. they are in the park because they have lost. Its like the Jews getting into the cattle cars not knowing they are on the road to the gas chamber.
This is almost hopeless. We must try to gather support now before the entire OWS collapses.
You want me to join you in the bottomless pit of ridiculous ignorance. I won't.
Read my blog to get specifics. Invite me to speak like Glenn Greenwald is invited. Its impossible to do this on a forum. I will speak for an hour and then I'll take questions until the very last question if it takes a week.
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
America has evolved into a country of liars in a deep trance.
Speaking directly with all Americans is impossible. The "political correctness" trance can only be removed like a cancer if a few Americans review the possibility they might be in a trance. The budget deficit is one of many issues that prove the deep trance.
"LIAR" is called flip-flop. Its baby talk for Americans in their trance.
What it is, is that both liberals and conservatives have been drinking the cool-aid for so long, that they've become completely indoctrinated. Their feelings and views on things are more instinct now, a reflex, Pavlovian at that. Various words, issues, etc... literally illicit a Pavlovian response.
I agree, we must gather support ASAP. Because if this doesn't happen soon, it's over. This can't continue for long, at least not as a real movement. I can see this enduring as an extension of the Liberal, Democratic machine.
Indoctrinated into a trance.
Political correctness has suspended the English language
read more -- http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Liars are called -- flip floppers. Bribes are called -- corporate money, donations, contributions. Bag nen are called -- lobbyists. Propaganda has put Americans into a deep trance that protects the crooks who take the bribes (Obama and congress) and the scammers who pay the bribes (corporate executives).
The only remedy that will work for OWS will be to nominate candidates and campaign to get them elected which will be absolutely guaranteed in 2012 because at least 70% of the American voters are pissed off. The trance was created by media propaganda that is obvious every day if people will look for it. OWS people are in the same trance that all other Americans have been put under. That trance has nothing to do with intelligence. The huge problem that must be remedied is to first consider that stupid, self destructive behavior must be caused by something, so let's consider the trance that manipulates intelligent people to use "political correct" language.