Forum Post: My Dad the 1%
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 9, 2011, 5:43 p.m. EST by hoot
(313)
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My dad was born in brooklyn NY to two russian immigrants who escaped persecution from Soviet Russia. They were a very poor family 7 people lived in 2 rooms. My dad graduated high school at 16 and recieved a full scholorship to Boston University 6 year med program. He then studied at the cleveland clinic... he served time in the air force s a doctor saving the lives of people who were abused by their gov(American vietnam soldiers) He went on the run many hospitals including being the cheif of medicine at Einstein in the bronx. He retired when i was born (he was 52 then as well as a millionaire 1%er). After his retirement he invested his money in gold long term (20 years ago he bought it for probably 30 dollars an ounce) and short term silver. He has easily quadrupled his millions. He bought a mansion in purchase ny for 300,000 dollars in 1974 and now is debating selling in due to the thought that the 1% (him a very hard working man) will be taxed the shit out off. He already pays alot in taxes and will have to give his convenience that he EARNED for yours and my convenience which we haven't earned. That house is a huge part of my childhood and i'm going to have to see that destroyed and see new disgusting houses put on that land. I'm not saying all of the 1% worked their asses off for their money but i know my dad did and i know he deserves every penny he has earned to give me and my 4 brothers a chance in this world. I also know you and me dont deserve to reep the benefits of his labor by force... If he chooses to donate some of his millions thats his choice just like a couple who doesnt plan on having a kid has the chose to abort it or i have the choice to join the army or not or the choice to smoke marijuana or the choice to drink or marry who i want... All I'm saying is take a good look at yourselves you may see a resemblance to the tyrannical 1%
Hi Hoot -- Sounds like your dad benefited from US public policies during his youth (decent public school for working class), good public universities (Boston U), and generous scholarships. This was also the case when I grew up. (I got a full scholarship to attend a UC in California.) However, my sons have not had the benefits of good public schools in CA over the past 18 yrs. I've had to drive them to a charter school in another town, as our local schools are disfunctional. And they have attended a few years of private school. I would prefer to pay higher property and state taxes so that our CA schools have the resources that I had enjoyed. My oldest son, who recently started at a UC had the same grades I had, but there's no CA state scholarship for him. Many of the youth today must acquire huge debt to attend even public universities. (UC is almost $30,000 per yr with room and board.)
Those of us who benefited from society's resources (like your dad & me) should pay higher taxes so that the youth of today can enjoy the opportunities we had, without being saddled with debt. It's a matter of generational equity. My parents' generation had to pay much higher taxes. (For example, in the 1950s - early 60s, top tax rate was 91%). See historical top tax rates at: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213
More money is not going to make the schools better, it will make union bosses and teachers richer
Limiting/destroying tenure and re-examining the value of sports teams & all the added amenities colleges have been building might free up a lot of money that could lead to higher quality teaching and more scholarships.
In fact, getting rid of tenure would solve a lot of quality-of-teaching issues.
Hey you know what I'd love considering I'm paying for schools- I'd love to be able to choose my childrens teachers. And if I like one, I'd employ them for more than one year. I would love a school that gives me options. There can still be state mandated requirements. But give me freedom in education. Schools should not be a government works program. Communities should have control over their schools.
Tenure keeps tea partiers, religious fanatics, and other extremists from firing teachers based on teaching actual facts!!!
Well said my friend. please read and consider: http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-rally-cry-to-occupy-join-in-once-voice/ The more voices add to this statement, the more powerful it can become
1% to me means those that have bought and paid for their representation in our government. 1% buys their representation 99% are left with the scraps. Our current political system allows this and it is destroying our democracy.
got it sorry i thought it meant people effected by new taxes
Thats ok! No need to apologize. It took me time to come to this realization. By talking with other people just like you and I are talking now! I only speak for myself. But I believe that money in our political process is speaking too loudly in our government. I believe that we should get all of the money out of politics by having publicly funded campaigns. Our democracy is being destroyed because the government no longer hears the voices of the 99% We need to have Separation of Money and State. To take back our democracy!
The issue is not the 1% as such, it is the fact that the corporate powers are part of the 1% and they are the ones attempting to surpress the vote and to destroy regulations, many of which I'm sure lots of doctors would support.
And good for your father, he really typifies the "American Dream" with what he has done with his life - and helped many others while doing so. Obviously he has a terrific mind.There are also poor people who have been "taxed off their land" but your father has a choice. If the family wants to see that marvelous house remain standing he can hire an engineering firm who can design a subdivision around it however local zoning and development codes allow, and keep the house there.
After all, it IS his property, and within reason, and the law, he can do what he damned well pleases with it. I support the pride with which you describe your father's life. My compliments.
When people here talk about the top 1% of the population, they're talking about people, not corporations. They're demonizing people like this guy's dad. Look at the mission statement on this web site, it positions this guy's dad as the enemy. Don't pretend otherwise.
A 1%er is not somebody whose net worth exceeds one million dollars. It is somebody whose yearly income is multiple millions of dollars.
really? does that include stock investments? i thought it was the net worth exceeding 5 million dollars
It includes whatever income the person receives. (In the case of stocks, that would be either dividends earned on the stock or capital gains from the sale of stock.) Somebody who is wealthy may well be a 1%er, but it is not necessarily the case. For the most part, targeting the 1% means targeting corporate executives, and especially corporate executives within the finance industry who make multiple millions of dollars in compensation every year.
i understand but he still falls into that category and will be taxed like any other 1%er and if he is my family will deal with it, life goes on, i was just giving an example of someone coming from nothing and achieving so called american dream
I understand that. The thing about earning multiple millions of dollars every year is that even after a lot is taken, a lot still remains. Nobody is talking about turning rich people into poor people. And there are indeed rich people who have worked hard for what they have. But we are a society and one family's extreme excess is another's loss. We have to rebalance things.
One family's success is another's failure ? Pls explain that makes zero sense
There is X amount of income. How X gets distributed is a social question. If a class of persons in positions of power to make those distributive decisions (as CEOs are) takes a large share for itself, that leaves less for the rest.
That is absolutely wrong. There is not X amount of income. It is NOT a zero sum game. This is a basic misunderstanding that demonstrates a total lack of knowledge of economics.
If I create something, I create wealth out of thin air, I do not TAKE it from you.
Here is a simple example:
Picasso creates a painting. It sells for $10 million. Did Picasso take that 10 mil from you? No, he created NEW wealth.
The same is true, of course, for those evil corps that you so despise. E.g., Apple creates the iPad, they make billions because people buy it. That's called a value for value exchange. Both the company and the consumer benefit. Now where did those billions come from? Out of your pocket? No, of couse not. It's new wealth.
It is indeed a zero sum game, practically speaking. The only way it isn't a zero sum game is as you say: starting a business yourself. But, as you must know, everybody cannot start a business. Not only is it practically speaking out of reach of most people who lack the necessary capital, but it also literally isn't possible. If everybody owned his or her own business, no business could ever hire employees (because there wouldn't be any!). It would, in fact, cause society as we know it to collapse, because the society could no longer take advantage of the immense efficiencies that divisions of labor produce. It would be a society of artisans. Which might be swell, but it would take us back several centuries in terms of our living standards, and nobody wants that. Bubonic plague outbreaks are not fun.
So, you see, while it is true to say that there is not really X income available each year, it is in fact true that the reality is all that different.
What I did was simplify for ease of explanation.
You obviously completely missed my point. It is not a zero sum game even for those who don’t start their own companies or create art. I just wanted to present some concrete easily understood examples, but the same applies to more complex situations.
If you are an engineer at Apple working on some aspect of the iPad, you are creating that aspect of the iPad out of thin air. That feature has value and the engineer gets compensated for that value. That is new wealth being created. It was not extracted from your pocket.
The same thing applies even in finance. If someone working for GS, creates a new financial instrument that allows capital to be deployed more efficiently, that has value to GS, its customers and the employee. Again, nothing was taken from you.
This mentality that the rich are taking their unfair share of a fixed pie is just plain wrong. Sorry if you don’t get it.
What? $10 Million changed hands in your example for the labor and creativity to create a painting. Nothing was "created." 10 million dollars didn't come out of thin air, someone willingly paid it for a good and/or service.
If you sell something that costs $2 to make for $3 that's still a transfer. You paid $2 for the labor and parts to make it, someone paid you $3 for the finished product, you made $1 in profit from your customer. Someone loses and someone gains in EVERY transaction.
That's not true. Say you don't know how to cook. You come into my restaurant and order a sandwich that costs $5. I make a $2 profit off of you. Does that mean that I gain $2 and you lose $2 from our transaction? Not at all, because you leave the restaurant full, while you were starving before. We both gain from this transaction - we both receive some sort of utility. Tell me, who exactly is the loser here?
It is only a zero sum game if I am an investor and you are a worker, and an agreement has to be made as to how to divide the profits that we earn between your wages and the returns on my investment.
Food is a commodity, but no wealth was "created" in that transaction. Your restaurant bought the labor and ingredients to make that sandwich, and made $2 return on your investment. Your customer had $5 and now... no longer has that $5. Did we destroy wealth there? No. Money and goods changed hands in various directions. The crops used to make the bread and so on to make the sandwich will grow back, and the person who bought the sandwich will be hungry again.
I agree with you, and I never stated that wealth was "created" or "destroyed". I was merely refuting your point that there has to be a loser and a winner in every transaction.
If you are an engineer at Apple working on the iPad and you create wealth, it belongs to the corporation, that then distributes that as income. The income is still X that gets distributed. The question is how it gets distributed. Which is exactly what I originally said.
My contention that there is X income does not mean that that X is static from year to year. Of course wealth grows, and X may grow in absolute terms every year. But at the end of the day there is still X income to be distributed, and society has to decide how it gets distributed. When persons A, B, and C, take more than their fair share, that leaves less for everybody else.
Over the last thirty years, the top 1% has taken more and more of X every year, leaving less and less for the rest of the 99%.
No, the top 1% haven't taken the wealth, they created the wealth in the first place. Capitalism involves a value for value transaction. Both parties voluntarily participate in an exchange. The talented engineer has a certain value to Apple. If the engineer is underpaid and other companies recognize this, he can jump ship. Society does not need to distribute the wealth he creates by some arbitrary mechanism that you deem “fair” (which ultimately involves force), the marketplace decides.
Basically what it all comes down to is you feel you are somehow entitled to the wealth created by others for no other reason than that you exist. This is just envy; you are jealous that other people are more successful than you even though they didn’t take anything from you.
Your model is terribly deficient, as it does not take into account the concept of bargaining power, and how raw economic power enhances it. Accordingly, capitalism does not in fact involve a "value for value transaction." Moreover, it is fundamentally coercive, because people who do not own capital have no choice but to sell their labor. Those people in turn have part of the fruit of their labor appropriated from them by those who own capital. Thus, capitalism achieves what you claim to oppose: distributes wealth that other people create by an arbitrary mechanism (which ultimately involves force).
Another thing that you do not understand is property. Property expresses a social judgment about what fairness. Absent an organized society (government), property does not exist. That is because claims to property cannot be enforced apart from what you can individually physically possess to the exclusion of others. Only once you introduce an organized society (government) does the concept of property have meaning. How does it work? Well, you allege a claim to ownership of something. Who decides the merit of that claim? Society decides whether your claim to ownership will be honored. How does society decide whether to honor your claim? It decides whether to uphold a person's claim to ownership (and hence respect and enforce his or her status as owner) based upon whether or not it is fair or equitable that the person be permitted to use the property to the exclusion of others.
Note that this is an empirical description of property as social equity judgment. It is what property fundamentally is. So you will need to revise your assessment that "society does not need to distribute wealth ... by some arbitrary mechanism that I deem 'fair,"' because what you have done there is just denied the existence of property. And that is a pretty bizarre thing for a capitalist to do.
Quote - Moreover, it is fundamentally coercive
Is that more or less fundamentally coercive than other economic 'models' from (say) the 20th Century.
Tax is coercion in action, but largely as a function of the distance between is and any public good received in return. So it an economist might not argue that it is coercion, but when you get not-so-much in return for the cash you hand over, it sure feels like it.
Sorry, bringing up a tangential issue such as ownership of property has little bearing on the central point of my argument.
What you are basically saying is that when two parties engage in a transaction you have an inherent right – an entitlement -- to grab some of the value inherent in that transaction. Some people are (much) more talented than others. Some people work (much) harder than others. Some people are (much) luckier than others. You want to take, take, take from this group because you feel for some misguided reason that you are entitled to a share of their loot because you are a member of humanity even though these people took nothing from you.
This goes way beyond necessary taxation; it is the bedrock of your philosophy. To get back to one of my original examples (and this can be generalized to more complex situations): Picasso creates a piece of art that is worth $10 million. Poof, he has added $10 million to the world’s wealth. This has harmed you in no way whatsoever. Yet when he sells the work, you, bless your heart, feel entitled to grab a chunk of this value for yourself.
corporations should not exist as they do today
I agree but i dont think taxing the 1% will change anything the government will bail out another failing corp or create a "job stimulus plan" that in the end doesnt create jobs
Maybe you should realize that this country has a budget deficit because of all the wars we are waging, not because it gives food stamps to poor people.
i do realize that, its because our gov is spending to much money not because there aren't enough taxes on the 1% who already pay a 38% of all federal taxes, do you really think taxing the 1% will solve our problems?
And the 99% are the ones who send their children off to die in those wars, which greatly benefit the 1%.
I don't know any small businesses who are getting billions in Dept of Defense contracts but a bunch of the 1% are.
Who profits most from what we do in the middle east and who goes to war there? There should be a draft so all can sacrifice, then maybe I'll cry about the tax burden of the rich.
Your actually waxing sentimental about a house, some people have no house to live in.
i'm sorry it was the house i lived in for the first 18 years of my life i have a strong connection to it i dont want to see it destroyed, i'm not asking for your sympathy im just giving you an example of someone who brought himself from living in a 2 room apt wih 7 people to a mansion in purchase, i'm saying people can make millions if they work hard...taxing the rich is giving money from the rich to the increasingly rich and powerful gov
People can make millions if they play the lotto...
but most hard workers don't make millions, nor do most who play the lotto.
people can make milions by being a vascular surgeon, vascular surgeons can win the lotto you can jump into a hole
and you can miss the point...
i got the point few are prospering in this economy because our government is spending to much money on retarded bailouts/stimilus package after stimulus package, and meaningless war so yea people who made profit of the governments overspending werent playing the lotto
no, you didn't
whats the point then?
The point is that your dad is:
(1) not representative of how hard work is typically (un)rewarded in this society -- his case is atypical; and (2) not even representative of an unusual case of work being rewarded -- it was mainly investment that was rewarded.
i choose to believe otherwise to say that playing silver correctly in the market is lucky fine i cant argue with you at least we wont convince each other of anything
It doesn't matter whether it's luck or not. Speculating isn't creative, and isn't morally worthy of compensation in the way that labor is.
Also, I am not talking about the lotto because it is luck. I am talking about the lotto because it's a zero sum game in which the winners are unrepresentative of the game. Just like speculation.
So he grew up in poverty and made something of himself and now he wants to see poor people starve? There's something horrible wrong with your narrative. I doubt your father is as horrible of a human being as you portray him, but then again, I never met the man.
hes pretty bad
Of course the richest 1% should pay at least 38% of all federal taxes. They possess 38% of all privately held wealth in the United States.
Also, if you're using a personal example, then can't I also say that all of this is easy for you to say considering you were born into such a wealthy family?
Did you consider that maybe upward mobility is much more difficult now than before? That maybe times have changed since your dad made his wealth so as to unfairly block upward mobility?
It's nice that your father had enough money to give you and your brothers a fighting chance in this world, but don't you realize that most children don't have rich parents? What do you say to them that aren't given the same chance as you?
i say to them money isn't that important.... i severed ties with him a while ago and dont have any of his wealth i work just like you i'm sure i pay taxes like everyone else i'm also pretty much broke but i dont want to ask for my dads help or any other dads help i will find a way to survive and be happy...
You frame everything as a choice, but poverty isn't a choice...not for most. For the one of your dad, there were ten other kids that didn't get that scholarship and stayed in poverty for the rest of their lives. The American success story is always about rags to riches, but why are we forced to live in rags in the first place, when so many other people in other Western countries don't and still get to achieve their dreams?
he got a scholorship because he was the top student in his highschool graduating class... i guess people dont deserve things based on merrit?
No, you misinterpreted my point and took it as a personal insult based on contortions of Marxist theory that I wasn't preaching.
Your father got a scholarship and deserved it. All I'm saying is that as a person from an immigrant family, he didn't deserve to start off in such a bad situation and have to climb out of it. It's been engrained into we Americans that if we work hard enough we can climb out of poverty, which is simply not true for a majority of those who face a life of it. It also shouldn't be the required moral law by which we live. We should work hard to help other people stay out of poverty as well, which we just don't do. The current American ideology is survival of the fittest- almost a Spartan mentality that's crept back into our economic outlook only after the 1970s. For a good twenty years before that, most wealthy Americans AND corporations were entirely fine with with paying a good share of taxes- they actually considered it patriotic. When you think about it, there's really nothing more patriotic than helping out your government and your fellow citizen.
Maybe that's a little preachy, but I'm not coming down on your Dad- he deserved his education and busted his ass.
perhaps a simpler way to state this is: while your father earned his money, did your grandparents also earn their poverty? i suspect not. we need to do better as a nation.
Pay of doctors is also not based on merit, but supply and demand, with the supply strictly regulated both by medical boards and by the university system... Not everyone is so lucky to be in a field that can control its own labor supply (effectively unionized).
Your dad obviously got his education through, wait for it, wait for it....tax dollars paid by Americans! Everyone can't make millions nor should they. If everyone made millions we would not have nurses, emt's, teachers, police officers, etc. We need to stop assuming the only people that work hard and are deserved of any kind of respect are the millionaires.
yes but he made millions from being a surgeon for 30 years then investing his money the right way, people who are dirt poor have the same oppurtunity seeing as he was dirt poor from, he made something of himself, he wasn't just born rich
Here is a challenge for you. Live on $2.00 a day. That includes, all bills, rent, food, everything. Now go invest money! All do not have the same opportunity. Your dad worked hard no doubt, but there is some stroke of luck involved that he even had opportunity to do so, Many people work hard. They work full-time and go to school full time and take care of their children and homes. Take out student loans to pay for education and make ends meet so they can achieve a better life, brighter future. Many of those very people who are busting their asses will graduate with 3.5GPA and honors and hope of a brighter future to find.........No Jobs! I am one of those people. I am disgusted by this broken system. We are living under fascism not democracy.
I think one of the things young people are expressing is that there are NOT the same opportunities now as there were then. It is just not that easy.
In 1960, housing was 20 to 25% of the average families budget. now many families pay 35 to 50 - "affordable" is considered 30% of GROSS income.
So if you're poor or low/middle, like your dad's family was, it is HARD to get a start at becoming successful. Both parents must work, spend less time with children, all money goes to simply surviving.
Yes, there is still opportunity but it is much, much more difficult to succeed.
Should we also talk about the cost of an education now compared to how it was then? Right wingers are coming to this forum and jeering like children at students who took out six figures of student loan debt. Can a person from a poor family with 7 children make it thru med school today, even WITH scholarships? I don't know about that.
invested his money the right way??? if you know anything about trading financial markets, he was more lucky than skilled. silly is when a financial speculator drones on about their skill. your father took risk and he got lucky more than anything else. he rode a precious metals and real estate wave that many others did, too. in my experience, doctors and lawyers are some of the worst when it comes to humility when they get lucky in the financial markets. george soros has made billions in the financial markets and if you've ever had a conversation with him about it, the first words out of his mouth are about luck. you miss the point about these protests entirely. the infrastructure of this society upon which we all can both apply our skills and get lucky from time to time is provided by ALL of us. all of what your dad has above what he needs could justifiably be taxed and given to the families of soldiers who lost their lives defending your father's and yours' freedom to cluelessly drone on about how smart he is because he got lucky in the financial and real estate markets. it's the mistake of skill for luck, borne out of human arrogance, that is ruining capitalism.
George Soros is one of the worst human beings on the face of this planet he is behind something that runs deeper than any of you know...was destroying the english pound lucky? no it was evil and the reason he says its luck is to fool weak minded indiviuals like yourself... As for my dad he saw the overspending that began with carter and realized that as gold would rise overtime i certainly dont know the specific but i trust him more than i do you
it was substantially more luck than skill and as a scientist, your father should know this. if enough monkeys throw enough money at the markets for whatever reason they want, inflation, deflation, expanding/contracting budget deficits, overspending, underspending, etc., some are going to make money and appear to be "smart". you obviously are not a trader or in the investment business (on a wholesale level). additionally, you obviously do not know george. read Nassim Taleb if you have a genuine interest in this matter and are willing to work a little bit at understanding - it's not easy stuff. good luck (and may you come to understand the concept of luck a little better).
You know who disagrees with you about financial trading being more about "luck" thank skill? The 1% you fight against. The 1% that are SMART enough to understand the patterns and BOLD enough to take the risk, because yes, there is always risk. There is no way you are telling me the whole science of economics is boiled down to "monkeys throwing money around".
you don't get it. success in trading financial markets (markets that are supported by the infrastructure of our society) is a result of luck more than skill. a monkey can take risk and throw money at markets. it doesn't take any inordinate amount of "smarts" to decide where to throw the money - most people have those basic "smarts". Nobody is talking about the whole of economics. furthermore, to use science in the same sentence as economics speaks of your ignorance.
The difference between a monkey and a human investing, or as you like to call it "throwing money around", is that people make INFORMED decisions. You are honestly delusional if you think there is no method behind investing. Have you ever read a stock index?
if it makes you feel better, in my statement above, you can replace my "throwing money around" with your "informed decisions". Doing so changes nothing and gets you no closer to understanding the difference between luck and skill and it's proper attribution. a broken clock is right at least twice a day. 1800's snake oil salesman had a "method", too. one person reads a stock index (a dull use of time) and determines X, another reads the same index and determines Y - both go on to score a gain in the financial markets that day. it's a question of how much is skill and how much is luck. and you are delusional if you think that skill outweighs luck when trading in the financial markets.
you talk about george like he's some god, meanwhile he's part of the 1% you hate i dont get it
nowhere in my posts is george spoken about as if he is a god. and nowhere in my posts do i indicate a hatred of the 1%. i am in the 1%. i am, however, able to recognize when people are no longer playing fair and the game is no longer fair, which is what these protests are about.
see thats where i disagree, these protests are about alot of things how about good old george giving 5million to obama through moveon.org isnt that what the protests are about, the stopping of politicians being bought
correction - which is some of what these protests are about.
yea like george soros funding moveon.org then buying off obama via moveon.org
So everyone should be a millionaire? Do you realize that if everyone was a millionaire this country would shut down? For the record, I invested my money the "right way". Sadly on top of lack of employment and the losses I took after the stock market crash, my money is all gone.
you should have bought gold 20 years ago i dont know if you invested it yourself or took advice from a broker. I'm not saying everyone should be a millionaire but my dad is and deserves every penny he has ever made
I had tons of gold my father left me. Had to sell it two years ago to pay the bills.
i'm working to jobs to pay rent along with the many other bills i have to pay, thats life, and i understand that my dad will have to pay higher taxes i just dont think its the right decision
Because your dad makes more money, I also work two jobs and go to school full time. I am struggling to make ends meet. The only way the US is going to get out of this hole is to raise taxes on the wealthy. The country is in debt, and instead of taxing the wealthiest Americans we are cutting things like Planned Parenthood, the only means some women have to get to healthcare. Sorry you're dad will have to pay more for a while, but I seriously doubt he is doing without healthcare and wondering where his next meal is coming from.
actually as a matter of fact he didnt have healthcare(until he turned 65 and it became mandated) he chose not to buy into the insurance system... i understand we are going through a repression/depression but our taxes aren't going towards our debt there going towards a war with the middle east healthcare countless bailout/stimulus packages gov raises and their healthcare our fed constantly inflates the dollars our credit was downgraded the dollar will soon be devalued its not the taxes its the ridiculous spending
"our taxes aren't going towards our debt there going towards a war with the middle east [. . .] countless bailout/stimulus packages"
And that needs to CHANGE. I disagree on the healthcare part because the healthiest, happiest countries in the world have universal healthcare.
well health care should be state maybe even locally distributed, no fed
Ok, but again, I really have little sympathy for him. Hard to feel sorry for someone that isnt worried about their water/elec getting shut off any day now, has ACCESS to healthcare, whether it be through the ability to pay cash or insurance. Many of us do not have such luxuries.
not asking for sympathy
Then what on earth is your point?
How someone came from nothing and ended up where he is today its the american dream in my opinion
Yeah, and sadly most Americans don't get the same opportunities. You're dad got his education at a time when things were affordable. Now everything is more expensive and everyone is tired of being in debt.
Yeah, and sadly most Americans don't get the same opportunities. You're dad got his education at a time when things were affordable. Now everything is more expensive and everyone is tired of being in debt.
Yes your Dad got his American Dream. Now that tight-ass is complaining of paying Taxes. What does he pay 10% on capital gains on selling his beautiful gold. BOOOO HOOOO I pay around 19%. Shut the F%$# up. I hope he make the walls thicker in his mansion because the shit WILL hit the fan, our economy is unsustainable and the middle class can no longer be the scape goat.
he not whining about paying taxes(like you) hes whining about paying more taxes
Those times have past. Stop living in the past and realize America is not the same America your Daddy made it in.
Your Dad Rocks...tell him I said so. He busted his ass, and achieved the American Dream. Most of us who continue to work hard enjoy a similar American Dream every day of our lives...funny how all we have to do is go to work every day!
Actually... possessing marijuana is against the law. Also, you can't marry anyone you want - only someone of the opposite gender. Just thought I should clarify that. Oh wait, that was the joke, huh? You can technically still have an abortion, though I think in some states there are restrictions. You may or may not have to sign up for the draft, so that's a half-and-half example too. Thus, difficult to decide if you're strictly a troll, or trying to impart some message subtly but failing.
Boo fucking hoo, cry me a river. Your dad has to sell his mansion and downgrade to something slightly smaller. Meanwhile 45 million Americans don't have healthcare. If you're so worried about it how about you and your four brothers chip in for the tax bill.
My Dad the 99%. My father grew up in rural Illinois, son of a US WWII vet and a 'baby-boomer'. He excelled at drafting in high school and went on to become a very successful engineer, never had been to college. He kept his head down, worked very hard every day of his life, raised a family of seven children. He rose quickly through the ranks of his profession, making some people very, very rich. As I have said, he was very talented at his profession. But he never obtained the same riches as you father. Mainly because he fed, clothed and put seven children through college, without any govt. help or financial aid because he 'didnt qualify' due to his high salary. He continued to keep his head down, worked very hard, invested his money wisely for a hope of a fruitful and productive retirment. In 2008, a third of his pension was lost in the Wall Street bail-out. He never made it to retirement because last February he dropped dead of a heart-attack. My father was/is the embodiement of the American dream and all it got him was a reduced pension for his widow of 43 years, less Social Securty because he didnt make it to 65 and a doctor's bill for 5000 dollars for the emergency services he required when he died that came in the mail the day we burried him. My father was one of the 99%.
thats a very sad story but its not the 1%s fault it is our governments fault
You are right. It is the govt's fault for creating the 1 percent.
You are right. It is the govt's fault for creating the 1 percent.
So your dad benefitted from being in the right place at the right time. There are thousands of janitors who have worked just as hard and have to retire on inadaquate social security benefits and soon they have already tried various schemes to take even that away. You have to back up and see what's beyond your own (probably very expensive) front door. THERE'S A WORLD OF REAL PAIN OUT THERE AND PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME FEELING SORRY FOR YOUR STATE OF POTENTIAL WORRIES.
boo hoo for your daddy and boo hoo for you. sounds to me, that a whole lot of people have worked a whole lot harder, for a whole lot less than your daddy. But how would you know? In fact it sounds like the majority of your daddy's fortune was made by investing in gold and silver, which isn't actually doing any kind of real work at all, and I got news for you, all of your daddy's profits didn't fall out of the sky, or magically generate in some magic box somewhere. All the wealth in the world is produced by labor. Let me repeat that for you, all the wealth in the world is produced by labor. So somebody else, somewhere in the world, actually did all the real work, all the real labor, to generate all of your daddy's profits. And they had to be paid less, so your daddy could be paid more. How much do you care about them? It doesn't sound to me, that you care enough about anybody else in the world, to even think about how it all really works. You know shit about economics. You know shit about where your daddy's wealth came from. You know shit about how it's produced. You know shit about how anyone else in the world has been effected. But we're all supposed to feel sorry for you, because the level of luxury in your life might be slightly diminished. Your daddy may have come from humble beginnings, but he has made most of his fortune taxing the wealth produced by others, and it sounds to me, like you are just another little rich spoiled child, who doesn't have a clue what real work is, who doesn't have a clue how hard everybody else in the world works, and who thinks the only one who matters in the whole world is you. boo hoo for your daddy, and boo hoo for you.
i never asked you to feel sorry for me or for my dad, and he bought the gold, he paid for every ounce... they charged $30 an ounce he then held onto it for 30 years and now its worth over $1800, he made alot of money on his stock he pys his taxes i dont see why he should have to pay more he hasn't bought any politicians nor has he gambled away other peoples money
Look you stupid dumbshit moron, first of all, you did ask everybody to feel sorry for you and your daddy. And secondly, what your daddy paid for, when he bought his gold 30 years ago, was the right to tax the production and sale of gold. In other words, whether he realized it or not, he made his profit, over the years, by driving down the wages of those slaving in the gold mines, and by driving up the price of gold to everyone else in the world.
I will repeat it for you: all the wealth in the world is produced by labor, not by sitting around and "investing" money, and, unless your daddy pays 100% on those earnings, he is making a profit, doing nothing, but taxing the labor and sale of gold at the expense of everyone else in the world. I repeat, rich pussy boy, boo hoo for you, and boo hoo for your daddy.
I'd really rather spend the time and energy reading a book than this entire forum so I don't know if this has been said but it seems some people have been giving you and your pops a real hard time. Anyway, I hope people can stop attacking each other and start reforming the system, otherwise we end up with pages of hate like this not really worth anyone's time. I have oppinions about this too but they are moot. We all know the system has to change regardless of the past or current situation with any individual\group and how this change will effect them.
All we are saying is... If the middle class pays 35% in taxes of their wages, you ought to pay that much as well!!!!
yes but thats the governments fault, were spending to much money on severel things such as war, stimulus plans/bailouts maybe we wouldn't have to raise taxes if we didn't constantly spend money
Sounds like your dad simply knew what the hell he was doing. That is awesome.
The issue here -- at least where I'm coming from -- is not a matter of details for one person's bio or another's. Because each person's situation is unique, and really can't be used to generalize about public policy.
The issue is really the overall social contract that's in place. Currently, our political structure favors those that "have" regardless of whether (like your father) they've managed to "have" based on really wise decisions or not.
In the meantime, kudos to your father for serving as a military doctor!
If this was the 50's his tax rate would be over 80%.
I don't think your father is in the 1% unless he is bribing politicans. Hard work and honesty is rare these days. We need more honest rich people like Warren Buffet who are not corrupt.
Thank you for this post! I can definitely relate.
My dad, considered a "1%er" grew up in a family with no money. He started working at the age of 14 cutting lawns to help support his family. He, like your dad, graduated at 16 and went to college. Although he had to drop out of college, because he had to take care of his family. His father, my grandfather, was deaf and an alcoholic.
My father worked from the bottom to the top and has earned every penny he makes. In addition to his earning, he has to care of my Autistic brother. My brother is 17 years old and my dad fears that he will not be able to support my brother due to the large amount of taxes the government takes from him each year. I saw his tax return and it disgusted me. He has to pay nearly 50% in taxes to support people who are lucky enough to have the ability to obtain a job. My brother will never have that opportunity. My brother will need to be taken care of. And once my father passes, I will take on this responsibility.
It sickens me to know that my dad has to worry about this all because there are people out there who are not willing to do whatever it takes to support their family. Instead, these people take handouts. Where do they think these handouts come from? How would these people feel if they knew they were taking it away from an Autistic child's future? I bet they would feel pretty shitty.
people need to understand we are individuals with individual problems
So true! :)
Sounds like a great man. Just try to remind him that both Democrats and Republicans that hold seats in Washington at this present time-- ARE LYING, CHEATING CON-MEN!
he hates them more than anyone else
The 1% is far, far above millionaire, or even multi-millionaire. The 1% possesses almost incomprehensible wealth. Congratulations to your father, but even he is still among the majority.
You're dad, bless him, is not in the 1%.
Interesting that he earned millions by selling his services to sick people. What I wonder is just how many died without care or regard so he could attain that level opulence? Kind of run contrary to the grain doesn't in a nation full of sick and dying people who can't afford medical care from a supposed healer? I seriously doubt a Dr. works any harder than a oil field worker or any small entrepreneur... but then most occupations don't have a corrupt gov't propping up a corrupt medical care system that is required by all do they
interesting point so doctors don't deserve the amount they are paid?
As for our healthcare system madicaide sucks and thats better than the care you would be getting through our national govt universal health care should exist but on a state or even local govt level
this is a pointless story, and one that should have been told by your father.....quit waiting around for his money, if he has to pay taxes, im not sad about that, we all have to pay
noone asked you to be sad just an example of an american
you keep making that point, but it seems like your story eventually comes down to you not getting any inheritance....make your own way LIKE he did, if you didnt earn it, its not yours.....a policy everyone could use a little bit of
Ha please i'm not getting inheritance i could care less i would give it to charity i dont take handouts
I pay my taxes on the 50,000 I make every year.....I don't whine and hope that my money helps other Americans who may be struggling. No tax loophole, no accountant to tell me how to pay less. Your dad is no more special than any ordinary American.
i never said he was
did you write this story on your day off? you seem to be sitting here babysitting it and responding to everyone who makes a comment......advice to you.....get something more productive to do on your day off!
as matter of fact i am on my day off this is an open forum whats wrong with sharing ideas and conversing with other people is that what this forum is for?
Your dad made money out of the sickness and illness of others, he used that money to buy shiny rocks and then sold the shiny rocks. What a hero.
wow so what do you value clearly its not the human life nor those shiny rocks
I value human dignity - not a sob story about a millionaire having to pay tax on his millions - no matter how they were earned.
The problem is that there are people who work just as hard as your Dad who have nothing; who work just as hard as your Dad, but weren't born with the capacity to be a doctor and make barely enough to survive; and who work just as hard as your Dad, get sick, and lose everything even though they had insurance.
The problem is that people don't have enough because most of the income goes to the rich, many of whom do not work at all and get their wealth from inheritance.
The problem is that our economic system is not fair.
It has left 46 million in poverty, 16% underemployed, 1 in every 5 kids in poverty, 25% of all blacks in poverty, 97% of all workers earning a below average income, 52 million without health insurance, and 50% of all workers doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology.
Most of those people are responsible, hard working people who are victims of an unfair economic system.
Capitalism is a system of inequality. It is a system where the goal is to accumulate as much personal wealth as possible. The more wealth the rich consume, the more poor everyone else becomes.
We should replace capitalism, a system of inequality, with democracy, a system of equality because we are civilized and humane and all humans deserve the dignity of being treated equally.
Be bold. Demand actual solutions. Demand that we replace capitalism with democracy, a system where power rests with everyone equally: equal votes, equal treatment under the law and EQUAL PAY FOR EQUAL EFFORT.
If income was allocated democratically, and people were no longer treated like heads of cattle where your entire standard of living and quality life is dictated by your ability to sell yourself in a market you have very little power over, everyone would be wealthy. There would be no poverty or middle class or homeless or uneducated. And there would be little crime.
If income was allocated equally, everyone would get paid $127,000 per year.
Or if you wanted to pay the people who did the difficult jobs that required greater mental or physical effort twice as much as the rest of the jobs, everyone would get paid $115,000 per year and everyone who worked in science, computers, engineering, medicine, construction, mining, or farming would get paid $230,000 per year.
When every citizen has access to a job with those incomes as a right, there would be no social problems.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/you-guys-are-kidding-yourselves-if-you-think-capit/
yea no social problems except my pursuit of happiness... a truly free market is the only way to save our economy... although i admire you for actually having a platform... another thing is incomes aren't a right in my opinion you have the right to go find a job otherwise i could be as lazy as i want and still have income it would be a huge social problem
"i could be as lazy as i want and still have income"
No you can't be lazy, you will be fired.
We have decades of research on what motivates people. The best way to compensate workers is to pay them well and to pay them a flat salary so that the issue of money is off the table and they can just focus on doing great work.
If you are a slacker and refuse to work as hard as everyone else, you would be fired just like you would today.
But to get workers to take pride in their work and give their best effort, the job should give them autonomy which treats them like responsible adults, an opportunity to master the tasks they are performing and a transcendent purpose to work towards.
Trying to manipulate people with monetary rewards actually hurts performance in the majority of work we do.
This is backed by studies done in many different fields including research done by the Federal Reserve.
The overwhelming majority of people already get paid this way. Most get paid a flat salary in today's system with little opportunity for advancement within your job. Nearly every union job, for example, tops out in pay after 4 years.
And this is also how doctors are paid at the Mayo Clinic, one of the best hospitals in the world.
View this quick TED Talk on compensation incentives which provides the evidence that the compensation model based on equality will not only work, it will work better than our current system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrkrvAUbU9Y
Plus there are a ton of ways to motivate people other than monetary rewards. Google the emerging field of gamification which is applying game mechanics (such as completing set tasks for points to level up and acquire medals and outscore the competition and reach the top of the leaderboard) to all real world activities like work, exercising, dieting, learning, etc.
It makes otherwise boring tasks fun. Advocates believe gamification will transform society and will be a part of everything we do. They think game designers will eventually be in charge of developing sophisticated systems that will turn everything we do in our lives into a fun and engaging experience.
Belts in karate or rank and medals in the military are crude examples of gamification.
View this video for gamification's potential: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NzFCfZMBkU
"a truly free market is the only way to save our economy"
We should have a market in goods and services. We should not have a market in people.
It is inhumane to treat people like commodities, like heads of cattle or bushels of wheat, where your entire standard of living and means of survival depends on your ability to sell yourself in an open market.
That market system of labor has left 46 million in poverty, 16% underemployed, 1 in every 5 kids in poverty, 25% of all blacks in poverty, 97% of all workers earning a below average income, 52 million without health insurance, and 50% of all workers doing pointless jobs that can be automated with existing technology.
And the more "free" the labor market gets, the worse those statistics will get.
We should replace capitalism and its market system for people with democracy because we are civilized and humane and all humans deserve the dignity of being treated equally.
Income should be allocated democratically so that everyone is guaranteed a wealthy lifestyle as a right.
where did you get those statistics?
I can't find the source for the automation number, but here is what it is based on. The technology mentioned is something that you could independently verify by a simple google search.
There are about 135 million people who work. Here is a list of Jobs that can be automated with existing technology and the number of people who are employed in them:
Office and Admin support (19.2 million) These are low level employees who do routine tasks. Most can be automated today. But the process will be much easier in a democratic system where companies share an integrated infrastructure. If we had standards for sharing all data and documents as well as easy access to all business data in a central location you would not need armies of employees to shuffle paper.
Sales (16.2 million) Most sales can be done over the internet.
Management (15.8 million) Most of these management jobs are actually sales managers which are no longer necessary since we no longer have sales people.
Transportation (8.8 million) We already have the tech for driverless cars and trucks. All that is needed is a government effort to create the infrastructure that makes driverless cars work on our roads.
Food prep and related (7.8 million) These are mostly people who work in restaurants. Industrial robots can automate any chef. There are already companies that developed robots that can cook hundreds of chinese dishes for an automatd chinese food restaurant. And moving a plate of food from the kitchen to a table does not require a human being.
Business and Financial Operations (6.2 million) These are accountants (which will no longer be needed because in an integrated, democratic economy, banking will be fully digital which will enable you to categorize sales and expenses digitally as they happen), loan officers (extending credit in a completely digital environment can be fully automated), and retail purchasers (retail is largely obsolete with the internet).
Buildings and Ground Maintenance (5.4 million) We already have automated mowers, blowers, rakers, window cleaners, vacuum cleaners, etc. so most of these jobs can be automated.
They amount to about 75 million jobs that people currently do that can be automated today. It makes up about 55% of the total work we do.
census.gov reports poverty and uninsured
bls.gov reports underemployment
bea.gov reports total income, total hours worked and total income per hour worked (average hourly income)
The 50% of jobs that can be automated is somewhat speculation, but it is based on research done by people who study automation. I'll see if I can find how that number is broken down.
"yea no social problems except my pursuit of happiness"
Freedom is the ability to act - to pursue happiness - without coercion or restraint. People who have little or no money have little or no freedom to act, to pursue happiness or to do anything.
The ability of a kid in the ghetto to earn money is vastly different than the ability of a kid in the Trump family to earn money. A ghetto kid has little chance at the freedom to pursue happiness. A trump kid is given unlimited freedom to pursue happiness at birth.
A poor girl in a capitalist country who cannot afford tuition has the same lack of freedom to an education as a girl in a Taliban ruled Afghanistan village where education for girls is banned.
Your income dictates how much freedom you have. And in capitalism most of the income and freedom goes into the hands of a very, very small minority. Only democracy gives you true freedom because it guarantees you enough income so that lack of income is not a restraint on your life. It gives you the freedom to pursue happiness.
I don't even WANT the "MTV life"...I just want a life where I can be mostly left alone (you know "live and let live")and be able to pay taxes. Also - I just want a life where I can work in an environment where I can't be fired for something stupid like being pro or anti abortion, being atheist, theist or X religion, being pro or anti gay marriage and where I can't be discriminated against for raises and promotions for something stupid like "the boss thinks that only men have families to support so therefore a man needs it more. All a woman needs to do is spread her legs, get knocked up and demand marriage!".
Also - if my employer makes me work under hazardous conditions and I naturally get hurt for it, then I want them to be held accountable. Or at the very least - I want to be able to leave hostile work environments instead of having to stick around because "all employers are like that" or "there are no jobs".
I don't have a mac. I don't regularly sip Starbucks. I don't buy my clothes from high fashion malls, although my dad insists on it even as we can't afford it. (It's the Poverty Mentality of Conspicuous Consumption) Even then, my family doesn't regularly shop for clothes. My family only eats out when it's cheaper or on rare occasions. I have never been to one of those expensive state colleges, let alone a Uni or Ivy League. I don't have my own ride or any sort of income. You thing $2 an hour is too low? Try $0 and still living with your parents like an overgrown kid.
There was a point in my life when I thought life would only be worth living if I could get away from materialism and society and spend my life either traveling the world before I die or run off into the woods and live free like Ted Kaczynski, but I came to my senses and gave up on that dream and now I see that girl as a stupid floaty dreamer girl. Plus - I have zero survival skills.
And now I'm begging to be an asslicking slave like the rest of you, because I don't want my only escape from home (it's all going to fall apart soon enough) to be through marrying some abusive, stinky and emotionally fragile man (or woman where gay marriage is legal) who spends all his or her moments with me working to break me down in mind, body and spirit, because he or she is an insecure psychopath who is afraid of loneliness.
I am the 99%.
You can't protest your way to success. The only path to success is hard work and good ideas. I think I'm considered the 1% as well. I sold the car I was driving to fund my business and work 12 hours a day to keep it going. I make sacrifices and I take risks to make money.
And guess what- I'm under 30! Came from a poor family and I paid for my own schooling. This is the land of oppurtunity and I don't care who you are, if you work hard and make the right decisions you can achieve success. American was built on getting a piece of your own pie, not taking a piece from someone else.
"Came from a poor family and paid for my own schooling"
How do you define "poor"? How much did the schooling cost? Is your business doing well and what is your business?
You can't protest your way to success. The only path to success is hard work and good ideas. I think I'm considered the 1% as well. I sold the car I was driving to fund my business and work 12 hours a day to keep it going. I make sacrifices and I take risks to make money.
And guess what- I'm under 30! Came from a poor family and I paid for my own schooling. This is the land of oppurtunity and I don't care who you are, if you work hard and make the right decisions you can achieve success. American was built on getting a piece of your own pie, not taking a piece from someone else.
Wow, I feel real bad for your father who has to pay taxes on his wealth. But to be clear, isn't he only paying the 10% on capital gains? So, if cashes in $1,000,000 in his wonderful gold, he will pay $100,000 in taxes. BOO HOOO every $1,000 I earn I Pay $190 in Taxes. Do the math you little rich b*&^%. Lets see how wonderful your memories of your gilded childhood are when things start to spiral because your tight-ass father won't pay more taxes.
look at yourself your so angry i dont get it is money that important to you... im not rich my dad is rich im poor as shit, but im happy... btw cap gains tax is 15%
Not if he has no other income. If he has his investments in a trust then he will show no other income, hence putting him in bracket to receive the 10% rate. I'm sure he has figured this out just like the other rich folks. Am I angry? Yes I am. Anybody who is informed should be angry. The banks received $100s of millions each. Reinvested it in the stock market instead of loaning it. Tripled their money at the least. Paid the money back. Kept their profit and distributed it to their top people. So keep your happy head in the sand and go help your dad polish his gold. You know his tight-ass is not going to give it to charity when dies.
don't be angry... we need to defeat greed, only than can we be more we need to stand up to our government and tell them to bring our troops home, enough with the money
Enough with the money? Are you kidding? It's all about money. Wake up! Get informed and read what Matt Taibbi wrote about Wall Street in Rolling Stone on-line. You will see that corruption in the govt and Wall Street is all about money and how to get more. The SEC is run by and staffed with bankers. Bankers who know that after their 2 year stint in the SEC they will be rewarded with million dollar contracts for looking the other way. The rich are having their way with us and they say we can't increase their taxes or can't tax inheritance. I say hell yes increase taxes on the rich and base it on net worth so they can't enjoy the 10% loophole, where I would pay 15% if I were to sell one of my rental properties (ha ha that's a joke I have only seen them loose 50% of their original price). I say bring back high taxes on multi-million $ estates, 50% would be about right. The kids didn't earn it. Might even make it more attactive for the rich to help some charities.
well you can have my money i have the support of friends and family its all i need
Go F#&*%@ hug a tree or your mommy, you are clearly young and dumb. The only people I have known to talk like that were people who were 2nd or 3rd generation money. Don't worry, you will get that hunger in your eyes when they read the will (honestly, I wish no ill will upon your father but I have seen the greed that emerges when it comes to inheritance aka free money you expect but didn't earn) . You clearly have no real concept of the real world.. GOOD DAY SIR I SAID GOOD DAY SIR
Thank you for this story. It is not the rich that are the problem in this country. The problem is the greedy, both the rich greedy and the poor greedy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having money. The problem is the obsession with more money. There are many GOOD people who have money, and there are many wonderful people who don't. Greedy people are the problem. Rich people who just want more and more at the expense of others, at the expense of morals are the problem, Poor people who are greedy, that don't want to put forth the effort it takes to reach the level of income they desire are the problem. Poor people who want to be victims of whatever circumstance they are in they are the problem. What is a protest going to accomplish. Nothing. People have to actually get up, and change the way things are done. They have to be inconvenienced by not doing business with these companies and actually going to vote for people to lead that won't bail these businesses out when they fail, not sit arounf and whine when they can't have their cake and eat it too. Get busy America! If you don't like a businesses practices, don't use them, and don't let your government bail them out when they fail.
Not all "millionaires" and "billionaires" are the enemy... the country was founded to give the freedom to reach for the stars!
“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks… will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered… the issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.” – Thomas Jefferson
We address the corruption that has infiltrated this great nation. When they become rich at the cost of the public sector, it's only a matter of time when the whole systems fails. There won't be anyone to "bail" them out because they are "too big to fail", because there won't be anything left.
http://patrioticmillionaires.org/
This isn't a battle against people of wealth. This is a choice to end corruption in our country. To make the corporations accountable to the people.
Boo hoo, daddy will have to sell his mansion? Are you fucking serious?
Your dad is not anywhere near the social realm of the people buying laws (prime example, Sandy Weill). He's just some isolated guy who made some lucky investment. So he's not really part of the problem.
Still, I am hardly convinced that just because he was a doctor, therefore he deserves a mansion, or deserves to retire at 52, or deserves to be a millionaire. There are lots of doctors.
eat a dick im not asking for anyones sympathy at all, its just a story about how someone made something of themselves coming from poverty...he deserves his because he bought that land and house, no mortgages no loans...
You're whining about losing the mansion you grew up in... HERE? Have you got a fucking clue what happened in this country in the last years? (Meanwhile, investing in real-estate beyond the means to pay property taxes is a classical blunder. Any professional financial adviser would have warned your dad about that. You need sufficient investments that have actual returns (not speculating on gold) to cover your property taxes.)
The problem is, there are about a million other stories of deserving, that others could put forward -- stories that DON'T end in millionaire mansion.
"He deserves it because he bought it", though, is the same story slave-owners put up... It's not a very good one.
comparing houses to people?
Actually, I would indeed compare the right of ownership without taxation in land, to the right of ownership in people.
Both are injustices inherited from feudal era. Both represent privileged positions in society which some people sacrificed much to obtain for themselves.
The uniting principle is this: just because somebody labored and sacrificed to obtain a position of privilege, does not mean that society must accept that such a privilege must continue to exist.
When the slaves were liberated in Jamaica, the slave OWNERS were compensated financially. Reflect on that a bit...
my dad ppays taxes on his land but having to pay more and higher taxes will force him to either sell his land or figure something else out
This is because he made a classic investment blunder. Real estate is a well known money sink, and any financial adviser will tell you to invest enough in productive capital to offset your real estate holdings.
I don't mean to say he deserves what he gets for making poor investments. But to say he deserves to keep the mansion just because he did good work as a doctor is to be blind to the realities of what is typical compensation for doctors.
what is typical compensation for doctors?
That information is widely available...
The point is, most of them don't make it rich on a gold bubble. Thus, those few who do should really abandon their sense of self-satisfied entitlement.
I liked bootsy3000's post below so much I'm going to quote it here.
"I'm finding it very difficult to work up any sympathy for this dude whatsoever. I grew up fairly poor; I got a scholarship; I excelled in my field; I kept up on my professional development; I played by the rules and paid my taxes --- and now my retirement fund is severely hampered, my kids' college fund is dead, and my home is undervalued. Why? Because I was born 25 years too late, after Reagan administration started implementing the policies of Milton Friedman. He's in no way more entitled to a protected tax status than my middle finger is."
I know many with a story similar to bootsy's, including in my own family. Any pretensions of some gold speculator to have worked harder than them, are nothing more than self-serving bullshit.
i never said he worked harder than your dad or anyone elses dad, i'm saying he worked hard, http://www.forbes.com/sites/feeonlyplanner/2011/08/28/gold-bubble-or-not/ are you sure its only a bubble?
So what if he worked hard? You seem to think he wasn't rewarded enough. You seem to think he deserves more reward than everyone else who works just as hard.
no i'm just defending my father, sorry i post a story of a man coming from shit and studying as hard and went to school yes, for free, but that was earned he continued his residency at a top clinic and saved peoples lives while making alot of money he then invested it gold and silver and made more money and now might have to sell his house its just something to think about its kind of ironic i dont know regardless he does his duty as an american tax payer to what the law asks and will continue its just i hes not the typical 1% getting screwed over to some degree, thats all
If he had bought a cheaper house he would have no need to sell it... He is not losing his ability to house himself.
I think you are the one who needs to think this through a bit more.
Your dad is not getting screwed at all.
well to a degree he is, i think its his governments fault yea he can certainly survive
Also, I don't think you realize how normal it is for retired people to sell their houses and move into cheaper houses.
My dad worked all his life, then he retired and moved into a cheaper house. I was nostalgic about it too. I called my ex-girlfriend from the old days and reminisced. But I didn't go onto web forums and try to make a political issue about it.
He can more than survive; he can rest assured that he will be able to stay retired and live in comfort.
yes he'll be good for the remainder of his life
Awesome story!
did he eat potatoes
I love potatoes
Is your dad buying politicians and trying to bust unions and eliminate social security?
If not then we have no beef with him.
Hoot, you rock.
Your dad worked his ass off to make his family's future a brighter one, and what does OWS say of him? That they deserve his money more than he does.
You want fairness? One tax rate for everybody. Dont overtax someone just because they make a lot of money. Tax them the same rate you would a poor person. This is fair.
Now if only the rich would actually pay their taxes...
There are a bunch of haters here. If you recognize that hard work should be rewarded, come join us. https://www.facebook.com/WeAreThe1Percent
You guys are battling over money.... I don't get it, the doctor that invested and turned his wages into millions is not the 1%. The 1% is the illuminati that control our media, our political offices, and every branch of government. You guys are going tit for tat over money when the real problem is that we the people fail to care for our mother. We lay in a slumberly trance complacent, allowing big business to rape the earth, leaving a cloud of death in a wake of toxic sludge. Wake up people! This change must be one that the universe backs. The karma we create as a species on this planet is dizzying.
You're right of course, but on the other hand, this guy is spouting the ideology that the 1% uses. We do need to smash this ideology.
Implicit in his argument is that our economy is a system of meritocracy that rewards the deserving. (He doesn't say that this story is representative of the whole economy, but he DOES say that this story should be the basis of policy toward the whole economy). It's a simple logical step from that, to concluding that bankers are worth more than doctors (they make more money), that bankers are more worthy, more meritorious, more deserving of the money they make...
Oh, the poor exploited bankers! What ever would we do if they followed John Galt and went on strike!
EXACTLY! This is about getting the 1% and their self-serving interests OUT of the Government. The billionaires that have billions can afford to pay higher taxes and not even FEEL the loss in any way, shape or form.
The government needs to represent the people and right now it represents the corporations that control it.
These little jerks are the tyrants. Too lazy to work, too scared to steal. So they'll whine until they get what they want. You have to love Marxist trust fund babies.
They are working just as hard as you
Yeah, if they were they wouldn't be there. Protesting isn't work. And neither is sitting on your ass earning your Ivy League, trust fund baby, liberal arts degree.
I'd work if potential employers would stop screaming, "Quit callin me! I ain't got no job to give!" over the phone. The nice ones always say, "Wow, it's great that you're calling and I feel for you, but unfortunately we really can't hire right now. I'm really sorry I wish I could hire, but I can't." Plus I got no experience - so just coming in and everything imploded. Also - the only real option for me is city college for two years then transfer to a state, because the risk of still not finding any job is just too high.
As for stealing, I'm just a stupid idiot. You see, if this place turned into "survival of the fittest", I'd either be dead or literally shoving shit if I were lucky enough by now. I do envy Cash for Gold guy for coming up with that ingenious scam AND probably having the savvy and the connections to get some investors to give him a leg up and now he's rich enough to bribe the BBB. Good on him. So the whole stealing thing isn't because they're scared, it's because we're too stupid and unfit. Sorry mayn. =[
have you been to the protest? alot of the people there do work very hard... go and talk to them, honestly i would normally agree with you but then i went to one of the protests and it changed my view on whats happening with our society we really are in crisis, be it that people dont want to work or that the rich are playing with their money, its all a ploy and we need to join together as people and take back our country from our out of control gov
Way to go hoot! Remember the real point! 1% buy their representation. 99% are left with the scraps. Corruption of our government and democracy.
I know you want to defend your Dad. I understand. But I think of it this way - your Dad worked hard and had much success. You should not have to defend that! That is what America is all about.
There are many people who are too angry and upset to understand that. With some good reason. We have to be understanding of those people too.
Remember the big picture. Help others to see the big picture.
i agree with you however i only meant to show that some of the people effected by new taxes aren't just these evil megatrillionaire ceo jetowners they are human just like me i always try to help those who ask me
You seem like a lovely person! Just wanted to give you some encouragement! Keep up the good fight.
Sorry, no sympathy. If he's so rich, then he can keep his house. My dad was in the Army, too, and worked his ass off his whole life, too, and didn't have millions to invest in 1974. I rent the house across the street from the house where I grew up - which my dad had to sell because he couldn't afford to keep it. I get to stare at it every day, it didn't get handed down to me - nothing did. My dad is turning 70 this year. He retired and then had to go back to work because he couldn't afford retirement. He'll be working 'till the day he dies. So, give me a break about your dad working so hard. Mine did too, and I guarantee he's paid a higher percentage of his lifetime earnings to taxes than your dad did.
And, besides, if your dad has billions, him paying a little more in taxes will still leave him a billionaire. And you'll still be rich. And someone else might eat and get the healthcare that they need. Imagine that.
i dont have any of my dads money, i dont want or need his support, im not asking for sympathy... you can guarantee whatever you want...but like myself you and everyone else aren't entitled to my dads money...he can give it to you if he wants to or can be buried with it
Obviously. If your dad actually is one of the rare ones that pay taxes - three million awesomes for him.
If he isn't...then all I have to say is - "If nobody is entitled to your dad's money, then he isn't entitled to basic social services like the services of the taxpayer funded fire department, police department, etc."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/04/firefighters-watch-as-hom_n_750272.html
If nobody is entitled to your dad's money then you aren't officially a member of the US of A, since you won't even pay to maintain the services that every citizen theoretically pays for. Fair deal.
my dad pays his taxes and will continue to do so
Ah then I take back all my vitriol.
Also - your dad isn't the 1%
he is in the top 1% tax bracket...AGI over $370,000 a year
LOL what? Why should a retired doctor make $370,000 a year? That's more than the average WORKING doctor makes. You're putting this forward as somehow fair? Give that money to a doctor who is still working, please.
making money off of gold and silver and apple and google and countless other investments
Yeah, again, why should anyone accept that that is somehow fair?
Personally, I don't think that it's like a huge injustice. But I don't consider it any different morally than somebody who won the lotto or made big winnings in Vegas. It's unfair because that's how the system works, and ideally we'd make it fair.
No one wants "his" money. We just want him to pay his fair share of the taxes. WTH is so hard to understand about that?
And if he's paying his fair share of the taxes, then WTH is your problem? He's still a billionaire. OMG, get over yourself.
He may have been 1% way back when a hamburger cost a sweet nickel and gas was a quarter a gallon.
Times have changed since then. The top 1% are the people turning INSANE profits at millions or billions per year.
Plus - if your dad was "rich" due to being a surgeon - we're not talking about him. We're talking about the people that directly benefit from human suffering and act more like warlords than simple businessmen offering a service.
yes but my dad is still being affected although he may not be corrupting the gov he still makes enough money per year that he is considered part of the top 1% tax bracket
A personal irony for you is that, no matter how hard you work all your life, you'll probably not be able to do better than when you inherit.
i wont inherit shit and if i did i would donate it, i don't take handouts i don't care about money that seems to be a problem we all care too much about money both you and the 1%
You don't care about money? What on earth does that even mean?
What I care about is that too many people in this society do not have stable living conditions because they do not have stable income. And those that do, constantly worry that they will be next.
Twice in the past year, we have had to offer the living room couch of our 1 bedroom apartment to a friend of the family, who would otherwise have been homeless (or on some other couch), because of the instability of life created by lack of income. This is a shameful state of affairs for the government of this country to enforce, in a situation of such abundance.
"Woe unto you who buy up house after house and field after field, until everyone is evicted and you live alone in the land." -- Isaiah 5:8
i'm only saying that i dont care if you take all of my money i can find happiness elsewhere. working hard is valuable family is valuable money is just a means to an end
And without the means, you do not reach the ends... if I took all your money, you would find yourself homeless, and eventually jailed. You don't care about that?
i would find shelter i could live in the woods and build a shelter and live off the land
Yeah, maybe... as a trespasser... until you got arrested...
I tried to pull off a Ted Kaczynski (not the bombings) - then I realized that I was a spoiled and pampered city girl who hates parasitic bugs. T-T
A toy poodle isn't going to join any wolf packs anytime soon.
Then the 1% is also screwing you over - they will not rest until everybody is poor. First it's the "Communists", then the homeless, then the poor, then the middle class, then the upper middle class, then the "rich", etc.
If your dad is truly one of the 1% that the protesters were talking about, your dad wouldn't be paying a single dime in taxes and you would be in Harvard or Yale. Your dad would also have big politicians for friends and would be spending crazy amounts of money bribing our so-called "representatives and officials".
That is what this is about.
[EDIT: apparently I misunderstood. The $370,000 figure was capital gains from the price of gold skyrocketing, not earnings. What I say below is based on that mistake, but I'm going to leave the comment in place because I don't like comment deletion.]
You're a little confused. Although this guy is a retired doctor, he's invested in stocks that are making him $370,000 per year. In other words, his new profession is that of "corporate share-holder." So, indeed, he is well-represented by the owning class, the 1%, GWB, etc., who all benefit from the same laws, making their money in the same way.
Also, he's exactly the type who can get his kids into Harvard or Yale (by sending them to Exeter or Phillips) if he so chooses.
An annual income of $370,000 from investments represents the hereditary power to command the labor of more than 10 humans, without providing any labor in kind.
Ah so then mister hoot is a miserly Scrooge...
Then he's worse than the people spending $120000 on pimped out treehouses for the kids because he doesn't give back as much as he takes. =[ Anti-consumption is also anti demand which leads to anti jobs and anti develop our industries to become industry giants.
It is really not about the tax rates as it is about job creation, trade deficits and corruption. It just makes people mad that his earnings are taxed at 15%. Hope you get all your father's money because the way things are going, you will be afforded much less opportunity without it. My son wanted to be a doctor, but doctors advised him during a volunteer program to major in something else because insurance companies dictated the practice. Cheer up- Your father can enjoy a historically low capital gains tax rate and should be thrilled to take advantage of the high prices his gold investment will yield - also with profits being taxed at historically low capital gains rate. Timing is everything...he also accumulated all his wealth in a time when the tax rates were much higher. I certainly don't want to reap the benefits of his labor but someone has to pay for the war. Oh well...
What if all gains were taxed like short term gains?
Then see a tax adviser.
your dad is not part of the 1%. he is part of the 99. the 1% are one group and one group only. international bankers that control the world. this is what this movement should be...http://www.radiokazoo.net/OPV/
regardless of the fact that hes not an international banker he is part of the 1% of wealth
How many homes does he own?
one
Wall St and their puppet show called "The Partisan Charade" own like...by God, didn't one of them forget how many houses they had?
Yea, you get it. That was the reason for my question - the actual 1% has far more than one home.
I think John McCain is the guy who couldn't remember how many homes he had.
Ding! Two cookies for you! =D
Also - See Double Dutch and Double Irish Google.
not regardless. he is not, period. unless he makes trillions of dollar he is not sorry to break it to you but Oprah isnt even in the 1%. and your daddy isnt Oprah rich. Bill Gates isnt even in the 1%. these people have no power whatsoever. none. i dont care if you dad has his own private island he is so far from the 1% you have no idea.
Someone's paying attention
lol
the top 1% of taxpayers in america are people that have an income of $364,657 a year my dad has recently joined that 1% seeing as the value of gold keeps on going up
Wait, what? I thought $370k was a return on investment, are you saying that's a capital gain?
OK, that is substantially less wealth than I thought based on what I misinterpreted as your implication of a $370k ROI. At least one of my other comments is invalidated.
ROI is expressed as a percentage...
Take that percentage, multiply it by your number of shares, and multiply that by the share price, and you receive a dollar amount of taxable income...
You're dad is a stud. Good for him and his family. Fuck the haters...
You miss the point. Nobody is denying that your father didn't earn his millions. He did, however, extract resources from our society and it's becoming quite obvious that the 1% is taking way more than they are giving and that is the issue. Society gave your father the opportunity to make substantially more than he needs. The question is not should he have to give back, it is how much should he give back.
I am saying that he didn't earn his millions.
He got them from speculating on gold.
How is that earning them?
Of course, he was a doctor, and that's very fine. But that wasn't the source of the big money.
true, but i don't think speculation should be completely disincentivized. it is useful in an economy. in short, we have it backwards - the high taxes should be placed on gains due more to luck (capital gains) and lower taxes should be placed on income from skill (earned income). our system is the complete opposite.
The capital gains rate is the same as the rate on wage labor.
Actually, if you want my opinion, I don't think income should be taxed at all, nor any other financial transaction. Wealth should be taxed. Nothing is more progressive than a wealth tax, and nothing is more efficient than financial transactions without tax.
(It's also true that, from a standpoint of moral intuition, the capital gains tax does not make much sense. Unfortunately, nobody ever proposes replacing it with a better way to tax the rich; instead, they propose abolishing it, mainly for the benefit of rich against poor.)
is saving peoples lives in the operating room not enough, you are just as greedy as these bankers
your father was given money to save people's lives and there are many more behind him that will do it for less money. the question still remains - how much do we give back?
would you go to school for 8 years paying 30 000 a year and then not make money during your residency and then not make millions
Just pay your taxes!
He didn't work his ass off to get rich, the poor gold and silver miners did. More than half of his money is dirty. Who would want it? He ought to give it back to the communities that slaved for it.
he's in the 1%, 1 in a 100 who have a son like you!
Re-read the first sentence of your own post. Your father's family fled persecution to come to this country, a country that took them in and afforded your father opportunities that would have been otherwise unavailable to him. And when it's his turn to give back, to contribute to the health and strength of the country he owes everything to, when it is his turn to make this a better place for the next family fleeing persecution, it's not enough for him to be just rich, he has to be RICH.
he was a surgeon he certainly contributed to the health of this nation and this country didnt give him too much all 7 memeber in his family had a job to pay their bills and no its not enough for him to be just rich he has 4 kids two ex wifes a dog and new wife many health issues of his own all of which he needs to pay for
Your father profited from the pain and misfortune of others, then invested that money in ROCKS that we for some reason deem valuable. And really, three marriages? That's the sob story? And why does he have to take care of his kids, aren't you grown? Aren't you supposed to earn your own way?
hoot is probably also jobless due to our demand-deprived economy.
no i have a job and get this i dont have a colege education and therefore no debt
I only have a high school diploma and like I said -
Came in and everything imploded. Tough luck I guess!
i cant afford a college education but for a fraction of the price i can buy the same books to educate myself
Even better - I can look for a library. =o
Don't know if anybody is going to hire someone who was "self educated after high school". Don't know if anybody is going to hire me even -with- an actual college education, due to the demand-less economy.
well i got a job working for an electrical engineer... doesnt require a college education and hey i get 20 dollars an hour
Good for you! It's great you have a job.
It's not the same for everyone though. I've called garbage collectors, fast food places, searched for janitorial positions, clerk positions, waiter positions,nanny hiring agencies, hotels for maid positions, etc. They all either say I need experience, need to be old enough, they're not hiring, etc.
i am truly sorry, i'm not trying to come off as a snob... have you tried dog walking/sitting or craigslist you can always find jobs on craigslist even if there extremely shortterm there something and you can do alot of em at once. college is a scam in our society for me in state would have been $20,000 a year thats too expensive for a liberal arts degree which you can get(minus the physical degree) by buying the same books used at that college for whatever class you might be interested in some of the greatest thinkers were self educated, most were why is it that we put such a high value on the physical degree when all that actually matters is the knowledge, anyway i don't have any debt which i'm sure you are with due to loans... if there is anything i can do for you if you a need aplace to crash or food to eat i am here for you
I thank you for your offer, but I am lucky to not be officially in debt - yet. My parents however are a different story.
I will try craigslist thank you. And yes college is a scam, ha ha.
EDIT - Full of scams but I will still try to look for legitimate offers. Looks much like the whole au pair situation though.
He is not the 1%. The 1% is more than a statistic. The 1% are the people who own billions of dollars at the cost of human lives, human freedom, and whole nations. You could own billions for all I care. I don't care if you swim in it. You are not the 1% unless you earn those billions through unethical means.
yes but he's taxed like those unethical fucks
No, he is not. Because those unethical fucks don't pay taxes. He pays more than them. The rates can be fair. If you make a lot of money, a higher percentage won't affect you as much as the middle class or poor. However, our tax system is so fucked up, that politicians keep making new tax laws to satiate the masses and make it look like they are taxing the 1%. but in reality, the 1% still get out of it and your dad and all of us are stuck with the bill. Your dad is part of the 99%. In fact he is a relatively unique member and should join the movement to fix the tax codes.
Flat tax without loopholes is the only fair tax.
He thinks what were doing here is great(showing the world that this is a country of people not of the elite) but he thinks we are confused about where the real problem lies you seem to have an understanding, it is the gov not doin its job the right way i understand the corporations are to blame but thats not at the root of the problem
It is. There are multiple roots. Vile Corporations (not all corporations are vile, but the ones who are are the problem) and corrupt politicians. These politicians become corrupt their first day in local office. When the nearby bank comes in to their office and say "Give me an extra parking spot, and I will issue you a car loan" etc
i understand that but the local politician who works for us should deny that car loan and do the right thing, its not that hard to do the right thing
Yes, but the problem is, they have no reason to. They have an easy job, they have a pretty long term. They can't really get in trouble for it. I understand why they become corrupt.
as do i its human nature but i dont trust the gov to regulate the corps corrupting them it creates a tangled web of corruption
True, "that's his choice" just as we have a choice, and although I'm all in favor of taking down today's ineffective and inefficient Top 10% Management Group of Business & Government, there's only one way to do it – by fighting bankers as bankers ourselves. Consequently, I have posted the Strategic Legal Policies, Organizational Operating Structures, and Tactical Investment Procedures necessary to do this at:
http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategic_legal_policy_organizational_operational_structures_tactical_investment_procedures
Join
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
if you want to support a Presidential Candidate Committee at AmericansElect.org in support of the above bank-focused platform.
I read through the thread quickly so I may have missed some comments, but I had to answer hoot's concerns. I don't think we are talking about millionaires being bad or evil or even part of the 1%ers. I think we are talking about people who are obscenely rich who get $60 million dollar a year bonuses creating derivatives, and then naked short selling on the tanking of those said derivatives being evil. Gambling on financial instruments doesn't really benefit society and as we have seen in commodities speculation can be deadly to the worlds poor.
again just giving an example of someone who worked their ass off from nothing and became rich and now its being taken away when posed with a problem you have to look at it from both sides
You are correct and your father should not be villified for being successful. There is a difference between being successful and being an entrepreneur and the current system we have.
The current system has our government as the corrupting factor in aiding Big Corp and Banks and providing Corporate Welfare...Let NOT confuse the two!
People need to wake up to the common knowledge that it is our Govt that has corrupted itself through the corporate lobbying.
Did I missed the flame war?
We're not trying to pillage and plunder your family's wealth. Everyone deserves a chance to be rich and prudent. Want we are contending is an unfair system, a Federal Reserve that enslaves its citizens into a never ending cycle of debt and deflated currency to benefit the super rich. A way of life that is putting more people into poverty, denies health care, and has destroyed us. I have children and we are seeing our way of life, our home, and our history going down in flames.
i'll be the first to say fuck the fed theyre taking everyones money and bailing ge out and giving themselves raises and the list goes on but thats not my families fault i was giving an exaple of how someone made a name for himself coming from a poor childhood, he isn't upset about having to give his money away but it will be given to a government that wont give it you and your family
Uh, if he bought a mansion in 74 for 300K, he was already super rich. He didn't quadruple his investment --- I and the rest of the 99% did.
he quadrupled the money he made by investing in gold and silver when he bought gold it was 30 dollars an ounce and now its over 1700 dollars an ounze
yeah, i'm finding it very difficult to work up any sympathy for this dude whatsoever. I grew up fairly poor; I got a scholarship; I excelled in my field; I kept up on my professional development; I played by the rules and paid my taxes --- and now my retirement fund is severely hampered, my kids' college fund is dead, and my home is undervalued. WHy? Because I was born 25 years too late, after Reagan administration started implementing the policies of Milton Friedman. He's in no way more entitled to a protected tax status than my middle finger is.
“The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are underlings.”
That's the thing. I'm not an underling. I'm a citizen.
It is not his fault others aren't as rich as he is. If everything he did to become rich was fair and honest, there is no need to punish him just because he is rich. OWS should not turn into a movement to punish the rich just because they are rich. If the system is fair, you can become rich too. That is the American dream. Don't fall prey to the class warfare propaganda of the left. Someone being rich doesn't automatically make them evil. What you are feeling is frustration and some groups are trying to get you to take it out on the rich by blaming them. What we are against is the government being manipulated by money.
You're right, we don't need to blame them. We need to tax them. It's not the same thing.
And even moreso, we need to remove their ability to control policy in their interests.
yea you were born into a society where the government has taken advantage of you, its not the rich its the government blame the right group
No way! Government can be great! Government is the glue that keeps the social contract working properly... when government is not corrupt. When representation can't be bought. When corporate and special interests trump those of the people. But there is no f'ing way the rich will ever do anything to protect anything except their own money.
and our government is corrupt, i understand corporations are buying them off but government should say no and do the right thing, but they wont because they are are human and get horny at the sight of money they need to go
You don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, and in any case, we don't have a workable proposal to displace our current governmental structure, we're kind of stuck with it. After we get some economic justice, then let's talk about anarchy or socialism or whathave you. Let's be practical visionaries.
fuck socialism fuck anarchism lets be principled human beings that dont have to be forced to give a group of people money that they will never recieve due to our government which if not changed will destroy our country before we can be visionaries
er... what?
Our taxes dont go where they are suppose to so people should give their money directly to the poor not through some corrupt bureaucracy
Yeah, I'm not really going to dismantle the EPA just to start tithing. Seriously, guys, let's keep this focused on income iniquity.
and if your dad can't afford the taxes, he doesn't deserve the house. its out of his means. life doesn't require a mansion.
i'm not saying he deserves his mansion he doesn't think he'll be able to afford thats why he is selling it all i'm saying is your just as greedy as he is
your dad isn't the 1% and he didn't "earn" his money, he got a scholarship, someone gave him a chance, he exploited slaves in the global south (via the gold and silver markets. see documentaries such as choropampa on youtube, or under rich earth).
he didnt earn his money? really? saving peoples lives as a surgeon going to school for 8 years, why do you deserve his money more then he does, you didn't earn it either yes he got a scholorship that he also earned
Saving money is good.
Preach on, this congregation needs to hear more, but I fear they shall stay deaf, dumb, and blind.
i get it, i get it. The guy feels like he worked his ass off. EVERYONE feels that way. The difference is, the dad worked his ass off AND he was the beneficiary of education and military benefits that don't exist anymore; he was the beneficiary of a couple of housing bubbles that were ultimately subsidized by taxpayers; and he's pissed off that other people who worked JUST as hard actually LOST their homes and their jobs and their retirements and have the goddam cheek to ask for more in taxes. Oh oh, daddy's gonna have to sell his house (he's not) and my childhood home is so important to me! Oh cry me a river, the entitled SNOTiness of it all.
WAH WAH! You took the words right out of my mouth. He's a whiner and wants everyone to feel sorry for his hard working daddy...like nobody else's daddy,mom,grandmom, or pop-pop ever worked hard in their life. I got kids who work hard with college debt riding on their backs indefinetly. What about them. What about the future of these young people. Nobody really cares about your hardworking daddy in the 1%,cause everybody elses daddy in the 99% WORKED HARD TOO!!
You know what, its not just working hard that gives you success. conveyor belt operators work their assess off, im sure, but they dont go anywhere. Its working SMART. The man is a fucking surgeon, who ran hospitals and served in the military.
It takes three things to succeed in the world. Hard Work, Intelligence, and Risk.
...and luck.
luck is where preparation meets opportunity
Like I said. Im more concern about the future of this country...not some old man who got his.
He didn't make his money being a surgeon though; he made his money speculating on gold.
As far as the labor market goes, the important thing is to enter the right field at the right time. It will do you no good to be the hardest smartest worker in a field that is not in demand, because you won't get an interview.
Regardless, differences in wages are small differences.
Nobody ever got rich from wage labor. Riches come through owning, not creating.
He made the money he invested in the first place by working as a surgeon. He became a surgeon by working his ass off in med school. He got to med school by working his ass off in High School, to separate himself from the rest of the pack while living in an environment that is completely alien to most of you "99%".
He got rich by working his ass off his entire life. In starting conditions that are among the worst you can get in this great country.
He didn't even work his whole life, he retired at 52...
he was able to retire early because he clawed his way to the top from the bottom. He worked harder so he could relax earlier.
Heh, well, if you exaggerated about how long he worked, maybe you exaggerate about how hard he worked... Not that it matters; I was just pointing out the contradiction.
scholorships still exist and the military didnt give him shit yes he bought a house at the right time sorry hes smarter than you...he doesn't care that he has to sell the house(i do because its a beautiful house that will be destroyed and replaced by shitty postprotpremodern houses) i'm only saying everyone including the poor have a chance to become rich as shit , and that taxes aren't going to be given to those hardworking citizens the gov will just spend it on meaningless war and raises
Lol, NO! First of all, you're being dramatic. He doesn't have to sell right now. He can rent it out. It's a bad time to sell anyway. Secondly, um, scads of people are being put out of their ONLY HOMES which are not at all quaint old pre-modern gems, Thirdly, NO, you'r ewrong, all sorts of great federal grants and scholarships have dried up in the last 40 years, not everyone who is poor has the opportunity to be rich just because your dad did. Seriously, you need to open a newspaper.
when did i say he had two homes when did i say he is selling now i'm i dont read the new york times or watch abc news i dont exactly trust news sources they all spew false propaganda
kthxbai
You're acting like a self-entitled elitist who thinks they're better than everyone. Why does your dad "have" to sell his house? Just to avoid paying some taxes? I really don't get your problem. If your dad is really one of the 1%, then $ is not an issue. He could give away 50% and YOU could still be a trustfund brat for the rest of your life. The lower class work just as hard, asshole.
you dont know me you dont know my family i dont have a trustfund i dont talk to my dad, i'm not supported financially by him either... i was just telling a story about one person in the 1%. you seem to know the 1% very well though can you tell me how much money my dad has, or how much his land taxes are?
You see, what separates hoot's hard working dad from you, is your attitude regarding money.
You seem to think that money is something to throw around, you cant even understand why his dad would bother to save some money by selling his house. Its called protecting your hard earned assets, you lazy hippy. I bet hoots dad values every single one of his millions more than you value what little you make.
Saving the millions that he'll never personally NEED, for what? There's such a thing as having enough. And I'm sure he values his millions more than I value my dollars. I value many, many, many other thing far more than I value money. I'm far from a "lazy hippy", you dolt. I've worked since the day I was legally able to, the day I turned 14. Sometimes 2 and 3 jobs at a time. I also put myself through college and run my family's business.
And, @hoot, if you don't even talk to your day, then why do you even give a shit if he sells your childhood home? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.
What is it that we are fighting for? The end of Capitalism? American communism? What is with all of the isms?
Let me tell you what I am fighting for. I am fighting for a global economy that is based on all of the natural resources of the planet. I am fighting for a true democracy that is detached from profit-seeking institutions. I am fighting for the principals that America was truly founded upon; not the principals that Michelle Bachman, John Boehner, or Barack Obama understand. I lump all current politicians into one category: evil. Lacking morals. Lacking conscience.
I understand our problems to be so immense that if a true progressive took office he would not muffle them, nor elongate their existence. I do not believe that Barack Obama is fighting for the populous.
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
Viva la Resistance!
True democracy = mob rule. The majority says they want free coffee, there it is. The majority want 4 day weekends, got it. Democracy does not work.
k, thanks for your input. let's just give up and comply with fascist regimes
Nearly every political thinker since Socrates has recognized that democracy is a terrible form of government. Believe it or not, the ideal would be a benevolent King. Unfortunately humans are corrupt, so a polity is the best realistic option.
I am here for the same reason. Right On! Right On!!
Agreed. It's tiring when media and social groups tell us who are heroes are. We can pick our own heroes and use our own logic, not their's.
i agree and disagree at the same time...i dont think a global economy is the best thing ever because i believe the nwo wants that...and i'm not sure if we need a progressive or progression in our gov in my opinion we need to revert back to our constitution we haven't ever completely lived by it i think it was as close to perct as inperfect beings can get im not fighting for any isms and its clear that the current politicians only care about themselves
I know the term "global economy" sounds intimidating, but we already have one. We live in a global society; technology ensures that! It doesn't matter what you, or I, or they want. In terms of progressive, that doesn't mean you throw out the constitution! That means you look at the constitution to determine why the current system is fucked up.
The Federal Reserve Board is not constitutional. Lobbyists should not be constitutional. Our current government has fallen soooo far away from the society that the Constitution strives to build. So you're right, it's time we reevaluate the Constitution to fit the times.
i can certainly agree with that
Neither FRB or lobbyist are in the Constitution. Not one word!
Correct, FRB is not mentioned in the Constitution (obviously.) The FRB is a private-bank that regulates the US currency. That is unconstitutional. I'm not going to prove it because people with a lot more experience than me have been working tirelessly to prove this. Google it.
Also lobbying is constitutional now, and that's exactly the problem.
hoot,you might want to take a good look at yourself too.
i have believe im as greedy as any other human and as entitled i'm only giving an example of someone who was able to go from poor to rich via hard work
from poor to rich via hard work and luck
why dont you answer my questions about george?
you didn't ask any questions about george. you made assertions about george.
sorry your right ok
Is George Soros the chief financier of Moveon.org as well as the tides foundation?
If so didn't moveon.org finance part of obamas campaign?
if so doesn't that mean that George Soros bought Obama Isn't that what these protests are about, getting the rich people hands out of our gov?
1) i don't know 2) i don't know 3) no 4) yes
i do know that george continually puts his money in places where it is against the immediate interest you assert him to have, making money. if you know anything about george, it takes some pretty intricate conspiracy theories to put him in the place you would like to. it's your mind use its energy as you wish.
ok im sorry but are you going to deny georges hand in breaking the english pound just to make billions
debating the merits of george's role in breaking the pound is way way out of yours' and bill o'reilly's league. the more important question is, if he did, what it means to you and how you form your assertions about him.
I dont want a socialist state not in ten million years, certainly not with george soros mr.1% ruling my government
Hi Hoot -- Sounds like your dad benefited from US public policies during his youth (decent public school for working class), good public universities (Boston U), and generous scholarships. This was also the case when I grew up. (I got a full scholarship to attend a UC in California.) However, my sons have not had the benefits of good public schools in CA over the past 18 yrs. I've had to drive them to a charter school in another town, as our local schools are disfunctional. And they have attended a few years of private school. I would prefer to pay higher property and state taxes so that our CA schools have the resources that I had enjoyed. My oldest son, who recently started at a UC had the same grades I had, but there's no CA state scholarship for him. Many of the youth today must acquire huge debt to attend even public universities. (UC is almost $30,000 per yr with room and board.)
Those of us who benefited from society's resources (like your dad & me) should pay higher taxes so that the youth of today can enjoy the opportunities we had, without being saddled with debt. It's a matter of generational equity. My parents' generation had to pay much higher taxes. (For example, in the 1950s - early 60s, top tax rate was 91%). See historical top tax rates at: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=213
hi maryhc if you want to pay then good for you, you are a great human being, and george soros can pay and warren buffet and obama and whoever else wants it should taxed it should be donated
that's not what george wants either