Welcome login | signup
Language en es fr
OccupyForum

Forum Post: Job protection is a racket

Posted 2 years ago on March 10, 2012, 11:25 a.m. EST by GirlFriday (21783)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

JOB PROTECTION is a racket, and the union wants in on it. Hence, two-tier workers, three-tier workers, and permanent temps. Workers pay and pay, but only capital is protected. Concessions never save jobs. Never. But they prolong the dues collection and subvert the struggle for economic justice with promises. Do what we say and you won't get hurt.

An article in the Wall Street Journal, titled "In the Heart of the Rust Belt, Chinese Funds Provide the Grease,"--about Chinese investment in U.S. manufacturing-- featured a picture of an assembly line at Nexteer in Saginaw. It looked familiar. I worked on a similar assembly line at a GM-Delphi fuel injector plant in Coopersville, Mich.--before they automated and eliminated half the jobs. Literally half. Post automation, we produced the same amount of fuel injectors with half the workers.

Perhaps that's why all the new production jobs at Nexteer are temporary. If the new electronic power steering systems prove viable and GM retains contracts, the Chinese may invest in more automated production technology. In which case, the temps would not be a liability. Or perhaps, the demand for a tier of permanent temps simply indicates the lack of long-term commitment toward American workers despite all the payola--tax abatements, waivers and wage cuts.

http://socialistworker.org/2012/03/06/job-protection-is-a-racket

163 Comments

163 Comments


Read the Rules
[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Job protection is only a problem when it suppresses new and better technology. For example, we have to ask ourselves, why do we still use so much oil, even though it causes so many problems? It seems hard to believe it's solely because of industry executives who influence the republican party, because the democrats have held power in a number of cases, and they didn't do anything significant to reduce our reliance on oil?

So we would think there has to be something in it for the democrats. We also might think it's more than just the big name oil companies. I mean, there's a panoply of companies who feed off the oil industry. Companies that manufacture and service drilling equipment, offshore rigs, supertankers, pipelines, etc. But I would imagine a significant percentage of workers who work in these industries are unionized. So unions also get a slice of the pie. Ahhh, now it makes more sense.

Okay, well, some cases of job protection surely deserve merit. I mean, when the financial panic hit in 2008, Germany paid its manufacturing companies to reduce hours, but also keep paying workers at the same rate (and avoid layoffs). This strategy was a remarkable success. As soon as demand started rising again, German manufacturers were able to increase production immediately.

In America our system is less amenable to implementing and sustaining a reliable system of help for manufacturers during periods of negative economic growth. So we'll need a different approach. In my opinion promoting employee owned and managed companies (particularly in manufacturing) is the best possible solution, something we could do through a government sponsored loan program.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (10721) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I believe much of these problems arise from, the power of collective capital setting wages for individuals. I believe it should be part of the incorporation process that the entire workforce be unionized, so that collective capital works with collective labor to set fair wages and conditions.

[-] 2 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 2 years ago

There is not now nor has there ever been a commitment to workers.New job classifications equal less pay,less benifits,greater profits for the few.The Unions do what they can to stop the bleeding.Most Americans do not care unless they are affected in the pocket.When enough of us wake up change will happen.Just as it did in the 30's

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Yep.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Careful, you may find a Republican in agreement with you ;) ...as a registered dem living in Florida, a "Right To Work" state. I don't suffer from union politics, but I don't have their protections either. I would like to see the functions of unions outdated by implementing their benefits as our rights from a federal level. We are supposed to be part of a "More perfect union" we shouldn't need any others to protect our rights.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

No. You don't suffer from the politics. But, let's not pretend either. It is much worse and you know it. I know it.

Tell the truth, Richard. They bring over people from other countries promising them that for 10K or more, which they will earn rather quickly, they can become solid citizens. They get them here, they cannot speak English, they divide them up....pretty girls into prostitution rings and older ones into cleaning the hotels and males into the kitchens and other things. Then they pay them something like 2.50 and hour, work the crap out of them and terrorize them with threats of immigration coming to get them. Then they take the girls forced into prostitution and move them around so that they can not get a grip on their location. On top of this, they charge them rent and food and keep them in the red.

That's the competition. Go Florida. Now, look at how many other undocumented workers that come through in illegitimate and legitimate ways that do the same thing.

Right to Work states are merely Right to Work for less. There is no protection. :/

I wish everybody played fair. They don't.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

You'll get no argument out of me. I'm not pro-union but Right To Work doesn't seem to be working either. We need a third option.

Our current immigration policy is a sham to perpetuate an exploitable work force. People that work here should get a fast track to living here, moving their families here, being part of our communities and economy rather than being exploited. Rather than sending the spoils of exploited labor to other countries by the employers and employees.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

I am pro-union because collective bargaining gets the job done. Further, there are those union people that will draw attention to those that are immigrants that are trapped in a factory. They have no rights and make very little money. So, a union says..ok, then raise the wages and give the same benefits to these workers and have a little safety and some rights so that you don't have to live in fear.

Therefore, there is no real benefit to bringing in undocumented workers. Now, there is no one left to exploit, except for those brought in for prostitution.

[-] 0 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

What about the difficulties in finding work when you first move to a heavily unionized area? Unions can create bad situations as well, though not intentional, it's a reality. Additional product costs, fees from employees, blacklisting (in rural areas, this is a devastating practice to entire families), justified or not.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

What difficulties? You have lived in Florida for way too long. The unions don't hire you. The business hires you. There is either a union present or there is not one.

Hey, my dad not only stood in a picket line but he walked a coworker across the picket line because she was a single mother with three kids and could not afford to miss any work. She was in tears. So, he walked her across. Believe me, I know about black vans and not sure who the hell is in them and what side they are on. And why are they following the kids and sitting outside the house?

You go in and you apply for a job.. The people that hire you, I don't care what you do, tell you that they don't care about a union they want someone to excel and they will make sure that you are compensated. I did have someone tell me that if I so much as smelled like union that I wouldn't be hired. But, there was a union there. They just didn't want you to smell like one.

So, you excel and if there is a problem, I mean a major problem then you go to a union rep. Yes, you can be fired. If it is a problem that can be resolved then they will help you. If what you have done is so major then they don't. You go in and you work your ass off and you go home. Only, nobody comes and screams at you or threatens you or intentionally jacks with you. You are allowed to do what you were hired to do well. You know, like when unions are effective.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Not true in all cases. Some jobs require that you go thrue the union. Many of them in fact. Also, the power of a union is seriously compromised when they aren't working cooperatively with the company, like say the employer doesn't recognize the unions authority and it has to go to court. I'm not dogging on unions, I have pointed out that they serve a purpose. What I'm saying is we need an option that is better than both unions and Right To Work.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Ok. The steel mills have unions. The union doesn't hire you. You put in your application and go to an interview. If you are hired then you meet with a rep who explains his purpose and goes over some information. Same goes for Education. Same goes for Restaurant/Bar/Hotel unions. Same goes for factories.

So, if there are jobs that require you to go through a union then I don't know what they are. I'm not a union rep, not in a union and so....you may very well be right.

The power of the union is seriously compromised when the Union is in the pockets of the corporations. Contracts are negotiated every so many years which allows for the ability to see what changes need to be made. Unions have in the past and continue to work with the companies and make concessions when necessary. Hence my no more concessions rant.

Well, when that option arises and is known to work then that is possible. Shelving years of labor law for an unknown at this point, is not something that I can agree to.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

I don't understand what you're getting at. I'm not pro or anti union. I'm saying our current system of unions has some issues, some do require you go thrue them for employment at some places, an employer here will not recognize any union I sign up with. The benefits of unions are obvious, there is no need for me to cover them. Right To Work has benefits and problems as well. What I am saying is we need to replace both of them with a better system, administered from the federal level.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

You actually have to organize a union in a non union place. I think, perhaps, that you take it with you if you join a union and contract out? Like maybe construction type stuff? You know, stuff that requires thing-a-ma-jigs and do-hickeys to do that thing and that thing over there? :D

http://www.ufcw.org/organizing/organize_your_workplace/index.cfm

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

lol, I have no idea. I don't know a lot about unions except they are responsible for the little bit of wage increase we have seen over the decades and workers rights. I know in St. Louis I was told I had to go thrue the union the get hired as a metal framer. I know they have fees and employees should not be taxed for the services unions provide, it should just be part of the entire employment apparatus in our country. It should be provided by the taxes we already pay. I know there are people living like kings off those fees. I also know they are the only thing protecting us from corporate lobbyist at the moment. So I do recognize the contributions they make to society, but also the faults.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

I dealt with my first and only union in Chicago. But, most of my acquaintances are union.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

family values argument right here.... didnt even realize it huh?

[-] -1 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

You are pro-union because you've never owned and operated your own business and have always worked for somebody else that did.

And prostitution may as well be legal.

[-] 1 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

There all hookers even my mother, lol wait except my mother, btw How much for your sister Jesus! hahaha....

[-] 0 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

My mother is reported to be much tighter.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

If shes close 40 we can make a deal, btw How much would you pay for an Afghani Skull Ashtray, It doubles as a bowl for cheerios.

[-] 0 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

Like Regan, I'm a crack dealer of sorts. First time is free for you, don't worry about what it will cost after you have some. I've heard it's like a milking machine and python crusher all rolled into one.

I'll go 15 on the bowl if it has papers documenting it's origin and keep an eye open for heavily tattoo'd lamp shades. I really prefer the fine line art but, I do find some of the coarse needle and thread work charming.

Thanks.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Ah, yes.....the you have never owned a business and, therefore, you just don't know argument. You lowly employee.

I had the opportunity and didn't like the business plan and opted out. It opened without me and shut down within a year. When I worked in the service industry I opened several bars through scouts. I became a GM in one of them. That's a bunch of crap...lemme tell ya.

I have said before and I restate now: There are some businesses where a union is not necessary. In fact, a union will destroy it. The owners will tell you flat out, we will shut this down and move because we can. They pay top of the line for the job, there are benefits, the whole nine yards. It really isn't necessary.

There are some people that have no business running a business. There is no little special crown you get for owning one that somehow makes you pure and golden and correct in all things. Either you are a great employer or you are not.

Prostitution is legal in one tiny area. I believe I could successfully argue that legal prostitution is called marriage. What we were discussing is actually trafficking.

[-] 0 points by JesusDemocrat (193) 2 years ago

Well, for some reason I was thinking the consensus here is that all jobs should be unionized as most seem to be certain that anyone who would employ them is only out to exploit them with almost extreme prejudice.

Employment in many cases is legal prostitution..... sell your body for money.... maybe skip the intercourse. Now the jobs where high skill sets are also required, different game.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Like, no.

Excellent employers are aware and lead and compensate fairly. Some do not want to do that. Some jobs create medical problems and so it is like being shafted all over the place.

High skill sets still are prostitution too. Better perfume or cologne in a smoke filled cigar room.

[-] -1 points by JesusDemocrat (193) 2 years ago

I suppose it depends on how it's done, but, from your perspective, most all working people are prostitutes, leaving the rest to be pimps, slave drivers, thieves, paper magicians etc.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Oh, let's not kid ourselves here there is at least a little strip tease going on by all others.

[-] 0 points by SatanRepublican (136) 2 years ago

zzzzzzzzzzzz

[-] -1 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

roll that shit SR, break open one of those Z's will you, I think the smokin lamp is on...

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

unions are good in certain situations, skilled workers yes, unskilled workers possibly no... and the best thing that unions do is make companies pay fairly and treat workers better to avoid them getting a union in the first place... profit sharing, and stock options also good ideas, vested interest an so on...teamwork is good...its hard to operate and grow a successful business by yourself, and dont forget they outlawed slavery...

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

I believe that has already happened. There was a time that unions were important but now we have a 40 hour week, health care, overtime, family leave, and many other benefits. Also, benefits are not rights they are benefits. You do not have a right to a vacation, that is something you need to earn and as you show commitment to a company you get more vacation and higher pay.

[-] 2 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

But the enforcement a union can and does apply to rights violations is not there. There are many aspects still lacking in the government's approach that make unions an attractive idea.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

If your rights are being violated you can report your company to the NLRB or OSHA.and/or other state labor and safety agencies.

[-] 1 points by cJessgo (729) from Port Jervis, PA 2 years ago

Agencies that have been weakend buy corporate owned politicians.So ineffective that they have for all purposes become useless.The corruption of our goverment is complete.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

lol and you actually think something would happen? no you have to have someone right there.. thats concerned with your particular company. using a bloated government agency just doesnt work. reporting to osha usually results in a letter to the company.. stating the complaint and warning them to fix it. there is no enforcement.. no consequences

[-] 0 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

It is illegal to force overtime "under the table" why not report it. There are both federal and state penalties upwards of $25,000 per offense!

OSHA requires Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for every chemical used in a facility. A violation will cost the company $70,000.

All accidents must be reported to OSHA and any company with a high TRIFR rate (a measurement of accidents per person per hour) will be severely fined and potentially closed.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

That hasn't stopped the infringement of workers rights outside of unions ever at any time. The fines are to few and far between, it has no effect. Many people don't file a compliant, too often the case ends with no results, it just isn't as effective as a union lawyer. That is the part missing from a union free picture.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Do you have an example of rights that were violated somewhere in America recently. I am not sure what you are talking about.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-533818.html,

walmart - and the workers DID have to get a lawyer to get anything done about it.

As one CEO told Juliet B. Schor, author of The Overworked American, "People who work for me should have phones in their bathrooms." http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v8n1/timetogohome.html

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

See and they did not need a union.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

this was after over 230000 workers were abused.. but thats ok i suppose. let them get away with it for 10 15 years... then do something http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

That wiki has some silly statements. Things like:

Other critics have noted that in 2001, the average wage for a Walmart Sales Clerk was $8.23 per hour, or $13,861 a year, while the federal poverty line for a family of three was $14,630.

Fist of all if I were a sales clerk at Walmart I would make sure my spouse had a job or I would not start a family. Most of the workers are part time HS or college kids. I had a job like that when I was putting myself through college. It was a stepping stone for me. I later got a job in a hospital helping people eat and get around. I did not make any more but it was closer to my school.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

you missed the part about the requirement that all workers be available for any shift at anytime.. there are not a lot a third shift high shcool workers as this is against child labor laws. maybe college but not too many can work third and succeed at college.. walmart employs 2.3 million workers. not that many kids under 24. mostly working poor. on food stamps and medicaid. the kind of people that are way to scared to complain for fear of losing what little scrap of money they do manage to earn. thats why they need unions..

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Right now, in a dozen or so establishments just a mile from me, the rights of hundreds of workers are being violated. Not that they will file a complaint, because it's socially accepted that you forgo certain rights in these industries to keep your job. Stand up for those rights, and you won't have a job and the employer is not obligated to give a reason in this state. It's happening to millions of people all over this country, right this second. And every second anyone in the future reads this, because it's the social norm.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Do you have an example of rights that were/are being violated?

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

Overtime being paid under the table at the standard rate, not the time + half that is required. Chemical exposure without proper documentation or warning. Exposure to unsafe equipment due to disrepair or unqualified equipment. The list is long homie.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

It is illegal to force overtime "under the table" why not report it. There are both federal and state penalties upwards of $25,000 per offense!

OSHA requires Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS) for every chemical used in a facility. A violation will cost the company $70,000.

All accidents must be reported to OSHA and any company with a high TRIFR rate (a measurement of accidents per person per hour) will be severely fined and potentially closed.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

it isnt reported cause the people want to keep thier jobs.. without union backing.. once the company discovers the complainer.. they will be fired"at will"

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

It is against the law to fire a whistle blower. The fines are even higher than those for the offense.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

companies break the law daily.. do you think they are scared of firing someone? the right to work law states clearly that the company can fire you at any time for any reason. they will find an unrelated reason.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Actually that is not true

Right to work law DOES NOT state clearly that the company can fire you at any time for any reason. You need to document the process and have to show evidence that the worker was warned several times of insubordination. I worked on and IT project with and HR department and believe me, you have to be very careful.

[-] 1 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 2 years ago

You got it. Those things are all required. Back to my point about the effectiveness of union lawyers...

Once these things are actually enforced, we won't need unions. My point exactly.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

worker should be able to support each other in work place disputes

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

lol seriously, its like that?

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Not necessarily. If you are working for a major company that might be fine. However, when you work for smaller ones they aren't going to do much. Further, it is assumed that the individual would just leave and find a job somewhere else. Especially in the food/bar service industry.

This is why in some areas they are allowed to get away with damn near anything. They are counting on the fact that you don't have the money to get a lawyer. You don't.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

First of all you will never get unions in the food/bar industry. Most folks in the food/bar industry make the majority of their pay from tips and do not report them to the IRS.

You do not need a lawyer to file a complaint with the NLRB. The fine for not paying overtime is $10,000 federally and up to $25,000 at the state level.

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I used to organize unions for restaurants. There aren't as many union shops as there used to be, but I assure you, the food/bar industry has unions.

Your other point is true: you do not need a lawyer to file a complaint at the NLRB. I used to do it all the time. In fact, they provide you with lawyer should one be needed.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

http://www.iww.org/en/unions/dept600/iu640

http://www.herelocal165.org/

You can get them. Your front of the house makes tips. Back of the house does not usually make tips. Oh, you just need someone to pick up your case. If you want ultimate success then you get your own lawyer. See, the going theory is that if you don't like it then you go negotiate your worth someplace else. That is how it is treated.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (3474) 1 hour ago Not necessarily. If you are working for a major company that might be fine. However, when you work for smaller ones they aren't going to do much.

You are not going to get a union like that in Sally's bar and grill.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

While only about 5% of the restaurant industry is organized union density in the industry is much greater in larger cities and some resorts and has little to do with the actual size of individual businesses in localities where the union is relatively strong. What it has to do with is the solidarity of the employees at the point when a union is first established at any particular enterprise, not particularly the number of employees at that enterprise.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Of course not.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That is why it is good for unions to set good examples and precedent to be shared by others. Good examples support similar actions.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

I may know some people that just might make someone, go for that, its a bit of money plus they dont like rats at bars... Joe I don't think you ever worked at a bar, try to stick with what you know please...

[-] 2 points by WatTyler (263) 2 years ago

Sounds as if the U.S.A. exported jobs, and has imported 3rd World working conditions. Good deal?

[-] 1 points by grapes (2660) 2 years ago

Here is a little quiz, people. Who is covered by the time-and-a-half pay overtime labor law? Who is exempt from it? What is the exact breakdown of the payroll taxes? What is the total percentage for a member of "the core" of a corporation (I presume that hopefully translating to a "highly compensated employee")?

[-] 1 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

Should elected officials have unions? I mean it sure seems congress and DC has something far more stonewalling. Your local police departments?

Is there any difference in public school teachers having a union and police officers having one?

Is there anything wrong with any tax payer paid employees having unions and the tax payers having zero power in their hiring, firing or bargaining?

Should the IRS have a union? They do.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Ralph Nader believes that people who work for nonprofits should not demand collective bargaining rights because that kind of work should be viewed more as a calling than as a job. Personally, I think that kind of distinction is rather abstract. Workers organize themselves into unions, not primarily because of low pay but rather out of a sense of powerlessness which can be found on any job, private sector, public sector or nonprofit.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

No. Technically elected officials are not employees. But their employees (that is, the staffs of elected officials)most certainly ought to be entitled to trade union rights. I don't think, for example, that elected union officers should have collective bargaining rights, but the employees of unions, from organizers to janitors ought to have the same bargaining rights as do the members of the organization for which they work.

If unions were stronger in the private sector, and I mean really strong, say 80 to 95% of the work force, the notion that public employees should be deprived of collective bargaining rights wouldn't occur to anyone excepting the ruling class.

The relative size of the public sector is elastic and whether they are in the private sector or the public sector, working people will always find the need to organize themselves.

[-] 1 points by SatanDemocrat (-24) 2 years ago

You still maintain that even if it means your property tax, income tax, state tax, and all other means of making the people pay are increased to pay for it?

So you, like most here, don't think you pay enough in taxes or that merely other people, who may feel like they are already taxed to death, should just pony it up?

I don't think many renters, or people who don't pay income taxes may not care so much how much local or federal government unions cost, however, when you have to shell out large yearly, just so they don't take your home you allegedly own, to pay for a police force that seems to be doing well with very fascist seizure laws, but, still require an amazing subsidy from the honest working citizens.... and to educate your neighbors kids.... etc etc

public service means just that..... I'm opposed to people making a fat and lucrative career out of such jobs

fair pay is one thing, what actually happens in many cases, is nepotism kicks in and ol billy who can't even read or write, manages to land a cushy job nailing 50-60K plus much better benefits than than he'd ever land in the private sector.

Does it ever dawn on any here how much the government actually costs to feed itself while denying many people their hard owned coins that may mean the difference between eating or lights?

I can't can't fathom how anyone could possibly want more government unless they haven't spent a many years staving off those insatiable wolves and scrapping with them to keep what you can from their grasp.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Not elected officials. No.

Public school teachers and police officers should have one. In fact, all public sector employees should have one.

Because when people run for election they often talk about ideas that will grab people's attention. They will make promises and they will make accusations. However, the people that work will still do the job and they will remain silent through out all of this. Elected officials come and go but the people that do the work weather out the storms.

The tax payers already do have power. They go to elect people that oversee and can go to the meetings. The questions is, can the tax payers ask the right questions? If they could ask the right questions, why are they not asking them before they elect the officials? Why are you so satisfied with catchy lines while they run instead?

[-] 3 points by JesusDemocrat (193) 2 years ago

I can tell you this, where I live, the police officers started grumbling about forming a union and were told them if they did, they could all go work someplace else because there would be no job for them here.

I feel the same way about the teachers.

If you are a public servant, and it's like you say, negotiate with those who pay you, directly and also the same ones paying, should have a huge say about your keeping that job or not.

It's only right and fair.

So how about that Treasury Department Union? DHS? CIA? FBI and on and on........

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

One might trump up some other reason for discharging an employee, but it is in fact a violation of both federal labor law and most state labor laws to discharge an employee in either the private or public sector for engaging in union activity and according to labor law union activity is defined as any "collective activity for mutual benefit" it doesn't have to involve engaging a particular organization. Basically talking to ones fellow workers about collective bargaining is a protected activity and one cannot be legally discharged for such activity, though when workers start talking about such things employers typically develop a paper trail of other unrelated issues so as to have a "legitimate" basis upon which to discharge an employee.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

It has alot to do with state supreme court rulings etc. and local politics, you got know the players and their positions...

[-] -1 points by JesusDemocrat (193) 2 years ago

However, that's what we told our police......... they do not have a union and there's been no more talk of it.

We don't HAVE TO keep a police force and can certainly decide we don't need or want one for any reason.

Power to the people.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

If anyone had been disciplined in any way for being supportive of a union (for example, having hours cut, being discharged, etc) they would have had legal grounds to challenge that discipline had they chosen to do so.

[-] -1 points by JesusDemocrat (193) 2 years ago

It's a small town, rural, mostly poor and all of them live here. The people who pay them said, "hell no" and meant it.....

I suspect it's much different when employment is at a much more personal level than those who work for faceless mega-corporations.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

No matter how small your town is, I'd be astonished if your point of view was universal. Indeed it would not even have come up if someone (probably more than one person) hadn't for some reason felt the need for organized collective behavior. Your own point of view is clearly a reaction to that. It would not have needed to exist at all were it not in response to something. And no matter how strong the hostility to collective action on the part of public workers among you citizens, I'd really be astonished if that point of view was universal among your citizens. Indeed, the irony is, if there really was hostility to unions as strong as you suggest, that in itself is an example of collective action, which ultimately is what unions are all about.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

What about them? Have you taken one moment at all to actually look at who does what or what the job actually entails? Or do you just buy what you read in the newspaper or hear on the tv?

[-] 1 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

How about their unions or do you just ignore direct questions switching into that patronizing and condescending thing you do as a reflex?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

I don't have a problem with them. You sure aren't looking out for them are you? You never took the time to figure out what the work actually consists of, did you?

Nope. Sure didn't. You listen to what candidates say and run with it.

[-] 1 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

You actually believe the IRS employees, who are NOTHING more than paper shufflers, some of which have badges, need a union?

No, I'm not looking out for them at all and find it vulgarly abusive the way DC wastes money and spends it like it's air, growing only itself.

You really should avoid talking to people like they have not had any real world life experiences or holding the prejudice that all people with valid opinions support the same corrupt system you valiantly fight to uphold.

Vote? You keep kidding yourself, not me.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

How much do you know about IRS employees?

Yes, they do need a union.For the reasons listed earlier.

You really should avoid talking to people. :P

[-] 1 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

I'm certain I know much more about them and what they do than you do.

Like most all federal type employees, they have cushy paper shuffling jobs and are grossly overpaid.

I won't bother asking you how much you know about anything as I already know your position.

As far as you are concerned, you have forgotten more about any subject than anyone else will ever know about nothing.

Our conversation does not entail me talking to another person, you may as well be dead or in your permanent coma you must have drank yourself into running all those bars.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Well........that's a hot load of douchebaggery that ya got going on there. Filled with lots of incoherent bullshit.

Fuck you. :D

[-] 2 points by SatanRepublican (136) 2 years ago

You do get too drunk to comprehend plain English. I'm not the first to notice.

GirlFriday, OWS's own little special olympian!

[-] -1 points by shooz (26675) 2 years ago

Oh satan, you silly little boy.

Are you still trash talkin'?

You don't really know anything, because everything you say is a lie.

That's the nature of being satan.

Be sure to set your clock for DST.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

He is rather silly.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

No. But, thanks for playing.

I drink maybe a glass of wine every now and again. Unlike you, that can't seem to put your damn crack pipe down.

[-] 2 points by SatanRepublican (136) 2 years ago

What's wrong with crack smokers? Do you know anything about them and what their job duties are? Of course you do ;-) Are you looking out or them? They are unionizing and need your support. They work very hard.

[-] 1 points by shooz (26675) 2 years ago

Are you an organizer or a committeeman?

I let the guys on French Rd. know to be on the look out for your Lexus.

We could find out all about your negotiation skills.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Why I would never in a million years try to define your job for you. So, why don't you share your experience with us?

[-] 1 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Hi guys I was a public works guy before the economy took a shit, and I want you to know, That most CSEA workers, are not allowed to strike, like other unions can, its a token union meant to offer some protections from the politics of elected officials and it only helps slightly...

[-] 1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I don't think I could disagree with this OP more. Job protection HAS worked, just not perfectly. Unions do NOT exist to collect dues, but to protect workers. And if Unions want to protect temps, who up until now, had no rights or protection, more power to them. If those temps can get he same rights as full-time workers, the incentive to keep them as temps vanishes, and more full-time work opens up.

The issue is to strengthen the unions so that they aren't forced to make concessions they clearly don't want to, changing laws to guarantee equal benefits and protections for temp workers, instead of accusing unions of being in bed with management.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

A lot has to do with the job you are doing when it comes to being obsolete.

Factory workers are the hardest hit. Construction workers or skilled labor, on the other hand, are still required to do the job "manually"

White Collar jobs on the other hand being replaced and more of a load is being put on this segment of the work force by requireing them to do "data entry"

The people who used to do data entry have been let go because the people doing the actual work - doctors, accountants, hospital workers etc are the ones doing the data entry.

So, as companies find more ways to improve production and reduce labor costs, human jobs will always be at risk - except for construction workers.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

you mean artists, and craftsmen, not construction workers right? Im an out of work construction guy...lol

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Well, I have always worked in the construction industry and never been out of work. Started out as pipefitter and moved on to plumber, welder, welding inspector, process piping instrumentation installation, system start up, system test and balance, HVAC service technician, supervisor, project manager, estimator, operations manager and eventually worked running a business.

Involved with installation of boilers, chillers, fan coil units, chilled water piping systems, hydronic heating systems, process piping systems, oil piping systems and the list goes on and on. Worked on equipment start ups, test and balance, troubleshooting system operataion and system/equipment maintenance.

Projects worked on were Nuclear Plants, Oil Refineries, Coal Gassification Plants, high rise commercial buildings nursing facilities, industrial plants.

The reason I am posting what I have done in the past is for several reasons.

First, I had a goal - a goal to be the best in my field and it didn't happen overnight.

Second learning all about my trade/profession opened a lot more doors for me when it came to being "employable"

Third as time went on my salary continued to increase dramatically over the years unlike working at a factory or in an office years on end.

Fourth I traveled a lot and lots of times my wife was at home while I worked out of town. There were times when she traveled with me and we lived in a camper for several years travling looking for work.

Lastly it takes time to build up your work portfolio so that when someone does looks at it it gives them a "wow" factor.

It also gives you hiring preference over a hundred other applicants who may be after the same job.

And that is not to say it gives you pride in knowing that you can take care of or know what to do whenever a problem arises.

Again I'm not bragging just letting you know what it takes to be successful and always have a "good" paying job

I might add that this also applies to other occupations as well.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Do you realize the awesome skill set you have... In the now you are helping our destruction, working for huge corporations, polluting industries, the very lobby we stand against. But there's another side to your coin... In the after, or the next, your skill set could be vital to a whole communities survival. Those pipes can carry water, steam, and natural gas. I do not doubt your knowledge or craftsmanship, but I ask you to look 2,3 steps forward, beyond the immediate, what are the consequences of your actions, what are you helping those companies achieve with your work?

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

What I have done over the years of my life is help "build America" to make it a better place for everyone to live - like all good construction workers.

If we didn't have piping to provide water, people would be carrying buckets to their house.

If we didn't have piping to carry oil to the refineries we wouldn't have gasoline.

If we didn't have piping to carry chilled water to the fan coil units office buildings wouldn't have air conditioning.

If we didn't have piping to carry plumbing we would be dumping waste in the streets.

If you look at it from a "polluting" perspective then you must live in a log cabin in the woods having built your house from logs, farming the land, raising your own animals to survive.

And yes, I am independent when it comes to "self survival". There are quit a few other things that I can do that I didn't mention but I can call on should I need to.

I pride myself in being independent.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Dude I hear you.. What do you know about chemistry? Fischer Troph? Alcohol fermentation? Geo-thermal wells? Thorium reactors? Underwater habitats?

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

As far as chemestry - I use various chemicals for hot gun bluing. As far as alchol fermentation - I don't make wine - but if I need to I can. Geo thermal wells - there is geothermal technology in the heating/air conditionind industry so I am familiar with that .

As far as Thorium reactors and underwater habitats - if I need to know I can find out.

I should also add that I have researched hydrogen cells as an alternative to gasoline because my Porsche 911 only gets 17 mpg with ethenol.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

Devildog - What do you do in the construction trade?

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

I used to work framing houses, and doing some remodeling in winter. Ive tried my hand at green concepts, roofing and siding. The green concepts include landscaping, green houses, solar power, ponds, radiant heating, insulation n vinyl siding... And have gotten in with some concrete and excavating guys, realizing that if there is new work those guys get the permits first, as the work is being generated.. One of the things leading me towards OWS was for a while Ive been trying to sell people solar power systems. Photo voltaic systems. Most of the people who have the money to get one dont give a fuck, they just want to drive their Cadillac to the race track....

[-] 1 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

It's going to take a long time for people to change the way they do things - usually about 3 generations.

So, maybe 60 years from now things will be a lot different when it comes to "green energy" but in order for it to change, people must want change.

Solar power is great - and still expensive -still has a long way to go when it comes to reliability of solar panels. From what I understand the life expectency is about 15 years and during that time the efficiency drops off.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Are you anti-union?

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Absolutely not, but there have been a couple of moves recently by a union leader or two that I have to question, why are you agreeing to this? No more concessions.

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

I agree to an extent. Concessions often only help the newest employees because they are the ones who will be laid off if concessions are not made. That is my main complaint with unions in general. Lay offs, if needed, should be based on job performance, not seniority. You would think unions would agree because more productive workers are going to have more bargaining power.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Lay offs should be based on seniority. They talk about job performance but what they really mean is the cheapest guy on the block (new hires).

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

See I have to disagree with you there. I can't see how employing less productive workers is good for the business, the union, or the economy in general.

[-] 2 points by grapes (2660) 2 years ago

Seniority is easily measured objectively but "performance" is much less so for the occupations dealing with less concrete things. There are some rather nebulous definitions of "performance" used by employers. Where there can be fudges, there can be abuses and corruptions or "soft coercions."

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

But don't you think employers want to keep the most productive workers, however they may measure it (and there are plenty of objective measures in some industries), and are willing to pay a premium for it? Sure, some companies might just want the absolute lowest cost employees, but more productive employees often lead to bigger profits, even if you have to pay them a little more.

My partner and I employ 5 dental assistants and if I had to let one go tomorrow it would be a tough choice but the one I know for sure would be staying is also the one that makes the most money because she is the best of the 5, by far, so I have no problem paying a premium to keep her around. I have no doubt that we are more profitable by having her on board, even though we do pay her a premium.

It is true that employers are mainly concerned with their profits, but very often a more productive worker leads to more profits, even if they are paid more.

[-] 1 points by grapes (2660) 2 years ago

You have a smaller outfit where you and your partner can observe productivity firsthand so "performance" is less ambiguous. However, many larger outfits have "managers" who are almost invisible to the board members and yet hold the hire-and-fire reins. In most of these outfits, even the personnel department may be a joke. I have NEVER heard of a personnel department suing a manager for inappropriate dismissal of a worker. It is likelier that governmental regulations force the issue there - a little bit like the SEC slapping a fine on a financial company to say that it has been disciplined so "move along, nothing to see here."

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

But those managers are themselves evaluated on their particular departments productivity. They want good workers and they want to be rid of those who are not good workers. Do you really think hiring and firing strictly based on seniority is better than using performance measures, even if they are far from perfect?

[-] 1 points by grapes (2660) 2 years ago

Many of those managers do NOT really want good worker - they hate those good ones who rock the boat. Of course, it IS true that all of that yogurt eventually hit the fan and we get creamed with 9/11, Iraq, Katrina, Deepwater Horizon, and on and on. I am saying that hiring and firing is not as straight-forward as the catchword "performance" would suggest and more objective measures defined a priori are better. There are also newbie MBAs firing senior staff because they cost more on financial statements but when enough of them are gone, all hell breaks loose. Some managers also play "turf" and withhold information from the other departments.

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (272) 2 years ago

I think your very wrong on that point. I have never met a manager or supervisor that would fire good workers. They would clone them if they could. And good workers do not rock the boat, but understand their responsibilities and will speak up if things are wrong, and generally the manager will listen for the very reason that he/she is a good worker. Performance is very important and can be measured.

[-] 2 points by grapes (2660) 2 years ago

Okay, I count as good workers those who can forewarn sufficiently in advance against disasters in the making. Perhaps you may be counting the ones who produce so many widgets a month. The usual response of the managers before and after a disaster is to cover up and get rid of the ones who spoke up about the disaster in the making, NO MATTER how good they were. How do you measure the performance of the managers who are wiping clean their trails with their tails? Did they do an excellent job because there are NO trails to be seen or an awful job because the tail marks are still clearly visible?

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (272) 2 years ago

I would say that the directors of the managers were not really performing along with the managers. Of course there are times when the manager does a lot of CYA (that goes on in every level, including the hourly workers). That is a matter of accountability, which can be in short supply sometimes. In any large company, there will be cases of these things happening, but there is a core that knows who is for real and who is faking it. IMHO there might be more instances of this issue in a union environment due to the natural adversarial roles of the personnel (an unfortunate byproduct). When I speak of good workers, they are both good producers, need little direction, show up everyday on time and just good people. Are you speaking from experience in a particular industry segment or what?

[-] 2 points by grapes (2660) 2 years ago

I gather that we are really talking about different industry segments (because for me the BEST workers ROCK the boat so that we steer clear of that big boulder in spite of ripping through much hierarchical "turf"). I would still want to know how to find the core that knows who is for real and who is faking it. There are people who keep on switching roles so that they end up on the about-to-succeed winning team and do not contribute much to the success except being there when it does happen. Most other people who are not intimately involved would be impressed by the genius displayed.

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (272) 2 years ago

I have personally seen those types of people who like to get on the train just before arrival and get in on the credit. In a large company, if you look carefully, there are always certain people involved in important project or tasks. They usually do not claim credit or chest thump, but are always chosen for the hardest challenges. And they know each other through these connections. This is the core that really keeps a company operating in spite of itself. These people can be found at all levels, yet they interact as if they were at equal levels due to respect. These core players always know who the claim jumpers are, and they eventually get exposed. I was a boat rocker in my younger days, but as I matured, I learned how to do it in a constructive manner. I was later a member of the core of a company with about 85,000 employees. Once there, it was tough work but very rewarding and satisfying.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

keeping it real, growth, competitive edge, your talking about innovators, and people, not robots or a dog sled team... you guys are talking about 2 different things... and your alignment is off, grapes your chaotic good -forest ranger type, and engineer4 is lawful neutral perfect priest, or soldier, you guys ever play DDO?

[-] 1 points by grapes (2660) 2 years ago

"I was a boat rocker in my younger days, but as I matured, I learned how to do it in a constructive manner."

What made you change away from being a boat rocker? Was it just finding a better way to "rock the boat" through "the core"? If yes, how? How many tumultuous events have you lived through being a "good worker" or a member of "the core"? Do you still remember the situations surrounding those events? Did the "good workers" get the shaft in tail-wiping operations by the "managers"? What were some tactics used by the managers? Did they say that the workers did not have good performance? Do you think that you will one day follow the steps of those "good workers" shafted and what would be your plan for redress? Will your "constructive manner" help you in that case?

I reflect on what I lived through in my life. I amend my views from time to time based on new realities (new information that comes into my stream of consciousness or "light cone"). There are times when "constructive manner" works and times that it does not (Read Ecclesiastes 3). It takes wisdom to discern and wisdom requires experiences and for most people age (like good wine, not the methanol-laced Evian from the sea of Gallo).

When you were a member of "the core," you said that it was "tough work"? Did you work overtime? Did you get the time-and-a-half required by our labor law? Were you a "manager," NOT falling under the edict of that labor law? What did you "manage"? Have you exercised your power to hire-and-fire as a "manager"? Do you consider that labor law to be below an excellent worker like you, unlike the ones covered by collective bargaining? I saw MANY workers classified as "management" to save the corporations money so that they do NOT have to be paid any overtime and be exempted from the time-and-a-half overtime requirement. I bet that you are one of those "exempt" employees. Are you "exempt" from getting paid overtime and counting it sweet? I am just saying that unions were instituted for a reason and most people never figured out the tricks of labor "management" until too late. Try to connect the dots and find out how many employees in your workplace are actually "exempt" from being paid overtime. Do you consider them as "management"?

Another way of looking at free or no-time-and-a-half overtime work is to lower the payroll tax and health care insurance cost paid by the corporation. Ideally only ONE employee is the best because both payroll tax and health care insurance is per employee. How do you minimize those costs? There is virtually infinite demand for uncompensated work in this world. The naive ones will provide the supply and of course, P.T. Barnum was right when he said that a sucker is born every minute. Is the practice fair and just? Is chafing the labor laws to make a few more bucks the righteous thing to do?

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (272) 2 years ago

Not sure where to begin to your reply. Maybe boat rocker is not same meaning. Let say willingness to speak up about issues or concerns. You can be quickly labeled as a complainer or a solver. It sounds like you have experienced some tough times. Once I did (in a union environment) and that was the last time I allowed myself to be in the weaker position. In reference to the core, where there tumultuous events. From my point of view, this type of event was of high impact to the corporation and needed fixing. and we were the go to people to get it done. Stressnfull? Sometimes, but everyone has their own level. Typically I was never stressed but those around were. To me, stress is a useless waste of time and energy. Long hours? Yes. Was I exempt? It the beginning, no so I was paid accordingly usual OT rates), but later I was exempt and the hours required became much longer. The salary was much higher though, with bonuses and stock, etc. But I enjoyed the challenge of what I did, so working the hours did not really matter to me. Was there ever CYA? Sure, that happens, but like I said, those never really make it to the core. I should define "core": this is an unofficial group of people within a company (usually large) that are from all levels (hourly to VP) that have the working knowledge, respect, cooperation and interaction skills to solve problems or just keep the business moving on a daily basis. I have worked with union and non union manufacturing plants. It does not take me long to know who are real and not. This is from line operators through management. How? By honest conversation. Have I hired and fired? Yes, hiring is a great thing, firing or laying off is very difficult, but it comes with the territory. The other points in your reply seem to show adversarial conflict thatyou have experienced. You have asked a lot of questions in your reply and it is difficult to try to answer them in a single reply, so I apologize for that, especially if I seemed to miss some of your main points. I will agree that the worker / management roles do need to become less adversarial, but both sides need to compromise on this. Does management take advantage of workers? Sure, in some industry segments more than others. But do unionized workers take advanatage of work classification / separation rules, etc? Absolutely. Each side feels the need to get on top of the other, and uses the rules to suit them. The result is higher production costs, lower efficiency, eventual loss of jobs (cost cuts), etc. In a well run company, both worker and management usually feel good about what they contribute. There is a common respect for each other. Not such a bad thig to work towards.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Ever had a manager take credit for someone else's idea, or take sexual liberties with some of the chicks there? That stuff never happens right?

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (272) 2 years ago

Of course that occurs, I was not implying that it does not. Sexual harassment is a severe offense and in most reputable companies, it is not taken lightly. Just curious, from which experience are you speaking from: labor or management?

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

I have only been a squad leader, never a manager. Also I'd like to point out that managers can be taken advantage of also by chicks willing to sleep there way to the top...

[-] -1 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

"I have never met a manager or supervisor that would fire good workers."

I have. Lots of times.

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (272) 2 years ago

Does it happen: unfortunately yes, and those supervisors will fall from grace eventually but it is a shame for the workers who suffer from the fallout. I was not trying to state that it doesn't happen, only that I have never met one in my experience.

[-] 0 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I'm not talking just about supervisors, but of the owners of the business. Politics and ego are real factors.

So is profit. Experienced workers are routinely laid of in favor of younger employees. For the most part, seniority really does translate into greater competence. BUt senior employees generally have higher pay and , because thet're older, more health care needs. SO out they go!

[-] 1 points by engineer4 (272) 2 years ago

That is somewhat true, but remember that owners must make the hard business decision on how to contain costs, yet keep right balance of knowledge base. profit is a motive but so is being competitive in the related industry segment.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Might the others take a small pay cut to keep her on staff? Or do you believe they would, want more money for the extra work they would have to do in her stead?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

It was just a hypothetical but it would probably depend on the reason we let her go. If we were looking to cut costs some of her salary savings would go to the others since they would have more work to do. But if my partner or I started working less hours the others probably wouldn't get a raise because there would simply be less work for them to do.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Mooks is it possible to do non profit dental work? I know alot of people who have health benefits, but not dental. Also is it more of a luxury, I mean people can live without getting their teeth fixed right, with maybe some anti-bio-tics right? Like in the movie cast away?

[-] 1 points by Mooks (1985) 2 years ago

Most (maybe all) federally recognized community health centers are non profit. Certain things are still pricey though because of the materials and technician costs. Things like gold and your denture guy are expensive in and of themselves.

It is a luxury to some, not to others. People place remarkably diverse values on their teeth. Some people just prefer to remove any tooth with a problem where as others will break down and cry when I tell them they have a very small cavity. Regular dentures are about 17% as effective as natural teeth. Most people pretty much hate them for several years and then eventually forget what it was like to have real teeth and learn to use the denture to some extent. Those who can afford to have a bunch of implants can do better but most just get dentures.

Antibiotics only temporarily relieve the infection and thus the pain. It always comes back because once the tooth is dead it has no blood supply, so the antibiotic never actually removes the source of the infection. If a tooth is infected it needs either a root canal or an extraction. Tom Hanks extracted his tooth in cast away. 2 weeks worth of amoxicillin wouldn't even have gotten him through his stay on the island.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Well, Mooks, one would think that. However, that is not what we have been seeing. The going thing is to take off the workers who have seniority simply to decrease wages, use less staff, and skirt safety issues. Happens all the time.

People are under the impression that because someone owns a business or runs a business that they are just and right and make decisions beneficial for the business, the union or the economy in general. The reality is that many of these individuals are going in and going to take as much money as quickly as possible and they have been given a variety of outs. It is time to stop finger pointing at the workers and start looking at those that are hell bent on screwing them.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

There is a clear insight.

Greed is inconsiderate - greed is it's own worst enemy.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Mooks and GF are both right, its a complex situation, basically a bubble... The workers and the company need to compromise, it requires vested interest and a sense of extended family or comradeship. If the company is worried only about profit in the short term, or the workers only about themselves, the whole thing fails. But if they think long term, and about the health of the company, care about what they make and the quality of it well then it can be saved...Older better paid individuals need to step down etc.

[-] -2 points by onetime (-67) 2 years ago

before they automated and eliminated half the jobs. Literally half. Post automation, we produced the same amount of fuel injectors with half the workers./////////////////////////////////Why do you think that the jobs were eliminated with automation??? The reason why is because of the corrupt unions

[-] -1 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

you went from semi skilled workers to unskilled with the advent of robotics, as unions continued to seek higher wages for less valuable work. Causing a bubble... plus the car companies continued to make SUV's and Cadillac, until they went bankrupt, WTF did anyone see gasoline getting cheaper? Bubble inefficiencies based on greed, not on common sense...

[-] 0 points by onetime (-67) 2 years ago

Libs cannot see this

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

See what? Im a liberal independent.... And I like unions, but its all about context. Do I like 380 Remington, in my hands during hunting season yes. Do I like a 9mm beret a in the hands of a nogger crack dealer, or a 12 gauge shotgun in the hands of a mexicant heroin addict... no not really

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes - I have always thought that job protection was wrong. It allows one to be lazy instead of active. Fall into the rut and stay there because you do not want to flex your brain. This is where people fall down or lay down. You have removed motivation to excel.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

A case in point: American Axle and Manufacturing (AAM), which originated from the sale of five General Motors plants to former GM executive Dick Dauch in 1994. In 2012, AAM will close Detroit Gear & Axle, the fourth of the original five plants to close. All the concessions the United Auto Workers (UAW) made didn't make a damn bit of difference. Despite the announcement of the plant closing, AAM requested an extension of tax breaks from the city of Detroit.

The quid pro quo of jobs for tax breaks, or wage and benefit concessions for job security, never stopped Dauch from moving work to Mexico, China and nonunion plants in the U.S. As David Cole, son of a GM president and director of the Center for Automotive Research, once told the Detroit Free Press, "In business, lying is one of the things you do all the time."


No more concessions.

[-] 1 points by TruthRightsFreedom (259) 2 years ago

Basic treason in the world of commerce. NAFTA and GATT need to be rescinded. I've been trying to get across to people that this behavior is only going to be ended by the Article V convention. It has the sole authority for such action.

The dumbing down and misinfo by the PTB has caused Americans to be ignorant of their ultimate right.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

We would not need unions if fair play was the law and if it was enforced. But fair play has never been the law it has always been a rare wonder.

And so we find ourselves here today in protest and support of protest. To claim our rights and to put down the corrupt.

We move forward - Together.

[-] 2 points by SatanRepublican (136) 2 years ago

but look deeper, as long as you need your time clock masters, wall street portfolios, and bankers, they will always own you and have proven for thousands of years how that works out..........

You can't patch things up and make good out of pure evil.

D or R matters not, its the system that proves to you daily it is without honor or integrity.

It is a cancerous growth on the nation.

[-] -1 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

wait your really an OWS protester.... Being dishonest, and sarcastic..... Fooey, Fooey roll that shit up... SR stop with the loaded polling typing statements tell us what u really think, and pass that shit over whilst I listen...

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Exactly why the movement requires no leader other than - The ideal of Health and prosperity for all through the ending of corruption. It is self motivating and self driven.

This is why we move forward - Together.

Onward OWS Occupy 99% the population at large.

We go forward in common cause.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

Exactly. They would be unnecessary.

[-] 0 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

There will never be a time in history when unions, or something like them, won't be necessary. There will always be greed and corruption, and the need for organized workers to oppose it. Utopianism is not a viable option, given human nature..

[-] 1 points by PopsMauler (182) from Chicago, IL 2 years ago

Pretty much spot on.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

I disagree, I was at church the other day, protestant church, and 99% of the people there had their eyes open... Would do unto others as they have done unto themselves. Anti war, anti government, They asked for volunteers people showed up for free... They fed the poor and the homeless... There was a woman preacher, and Pastor Jay... we teach children to share, it is not impossible, just gotta get down with the right kinda people....

[-] 0 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

I'm heartened by you wonderful experience. i have had such experiences, too. But greed still exists, And businesses still try to extract every once of sweat and blood from their workers as they can, without regard to those worker's rights.

This is a relative world, with relative being inhabiting it. The dual nature of people has been remarked upon continuously for millennia. Our nature's aren't likely to change anytime soon. We are spirit and animal, altruistic and selfish, courageous and fearful. Business create jobs and exploit those working at those jobs. Politicians start as idealists and are corrupted by the process and the money. Absolute economic systems always leave people behind.

And that's why we still need and always will need, unions and other organizations like them. They help give voice to the voiceless. They help put brakes on the profit at all cost template of businesses.

Until we change fundamentally as a species, until everyone is as loving as you described, workers will need unions to protect them from the worst practices of capitalism as much as citizens need the police to protect from criminals.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

Im for unions... but do the Amish need them?

[-] 0 points by epa1nter (4650) from Rutherford, NJ 2 years ago

LOL.

I really couldn't say! But is a really funny question.

Actually, I really can say, come to think of it, although I know less than I assume regarding their living and working styles. The Amish, at least the farmers, seem to work in collective groups. (At east i believe they do. I am open to correction.) They don't appear to have management versus labor systems. If I'm correct, in a very real way they operate as anarco-syndicalists. So no, I would imagine they would not need unions. They have no need to protect themselves from themselves.

[-] 0 points by DevilDog420 (133) from Saratoga Springs, NY 2 years ago

They have a communist society, where people have freedom to choose that life... "Rumspringa" it works remarkably well... They are peaceful, family oriented, and well removed from all economic crisis... Funny how that works huh not about money...

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (21783) 2 years ago

No. There won't be. I agree. It's all shoulda/woulda/coulda.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

We move forward.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I'm sorry but no raises this year

you have removed motivation to excel.

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Who gets a raise anymore? I have heard of such things I have even heard about recipients of such things. But for all practical purposes that is just an urban legend or myth or fairy tale told to children to give them hope. The average worker - the highest number of employed individuals - sees a governmentaly required cost of living increase and that is all. It does not matter how well the company is doing.

I think many workers would have a coronary from shock if they were to receive an "ACTUAL" raise.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago
[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Food for thought

and consideration.

Thanks for sharing.

[-] -2 points by JesusRepublican (110) 2 years ago

People who produce and are valuable assets to their employer. Not useless paper magicians, but people who produce. Do you know anything about producing tangibles useful to mankind?

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (33128) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I worked in machining and manufacturing for 18 years. My last employer was a multimillion/year manufacturer of test equipment and tools for Industry. Yeah I have seen who is valued. I have seen who gets screwed. I have worked with BOOK smart people who would not know how to apply a band-aid let alone their knowledge. Yes I have seen Business in high tech, I used to work for CDC before they floated belly up in the fishbowl. So I have seen from the inside the failure of a computer giant from mismanagement. I have seen and experienced many things in my work experiences.