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Forum Post: CALL TO ACTION - Let's make a DECISION RE THE 2 CAMPS IN OWS: Some want to grow the movement by clarifying what it's about. Some want to grow the movement before engaging in massive direct nonviolent action. WE CAN DO BOTH.

Posted 12 years ago on Feb. 2, 2012, 2:52 a.m. EST by therising (6643)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Setting aside the very small minority that just wants to blow the whole thing up and throw bottles and fight police, there really seem to be two main camps in OWS:

A. There are people who say we need to get bigger before we make demands. They say that, once we, the 99%, recognize that we have more in common than we have separating us, we will be in a position to make DECISIONS from a position of unified strength instead of DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness.

B. Other people say that in order for the movement to succeed and grow its numbers, We must get clear on what the goals are. The line of thinking here is that people reach a certain point where their level of sacrifice and commitment plateaus if the goals are unclear. Folks in this camp will tell you they're being realistic in thinking "Hey, who's going to join and commit funds, time and vocal support if they don't know what the real goals of the movement are and can't articulate them themselves."

I don't think it's either/or. I think it's both. And I think we need to take action on both now before the tiny minority of people who advocate and practice violence win out.

I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing demands since the discussion itself helps people get relatively clear view of the issues and goals. I believe that this can help the movement grow exponentially because it will begin to become clear that there are real actionable steps we can take to effect the change we desire. That tends to motivate people to focus and increase their support.

At the same time, I think it is unrealistic from a tactical perspective to think we can launch serious massive direct non-violent action without having sufficient numbers. (NOTE: The serious massive direct action I'm referring to would be something like the one described here http://occupywallst.org/forum/fresh-thread-forum-post-below-received-over-2000-c/ -- if link doesn't work, pls just google occupywallst.org fresh thread).

To get support, we should vocally and publicly debate our list of goals (whether it's 1 or 3 or 8). To get support, we should most certainly publicly denounce violence and publicly commit to non-violent direct action. To get support, (speaking from a purely tactical perspective here) we should do everything we can to look like middle America at any events, marches, blockades, sit ins or other protests so that when we're arrested, middle America sees its sons and daughters being arrested.

Most of all, to gain support needed to engage in major direct action like the one at link below, we need to engage in more and more smaller direct nonviolent actions all over the country to raise awareness. Once we get this ball seriously rolling, we can then do something massive like the action described at the link below:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/fresh-thread-forum-post-below-received-over-2000-c/ If the link doesn't work, please just google occupywallst.org fresh thread .

QUOTE from Martin Luther King, Jr.'s "Letter from the Birmingham Jail" is below -- This fellow was a radical my friends and he understood how to get things done. If you want OWS to evolve from a fledgling movement to a productive revolution that gets the money out of politics,, the tactics described by King below describe how you do it. Martin Luther King, Jr., inspired by Gandhi, engaged in direct non-violent action and effected massive change in the U.S. He left us his play book. Here is Martin Luther King, Jr. in his own words writing from JAIL after being arrested for protesting. King is an occupier from back in the day:

"Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks to so dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent-resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half-truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, we must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood."

"The purpose of our direct-action program is to create a situation so crisis-packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation. I therefore concur with you in your call for negotiation."

Remember who he was writing to in the letter from the BIRMINGHAM JAIL: The silent good people. King spoke of the "appalling silence of the good people" doing as much to harm the country as the the loud voices of the misguided. King was writing to white ministers basically saying (not direct quote) -- Where the hell are you? We are standing up for the freedom of all Americans, basic human freedom, democracy and goodness. Which of these great things would Jesus have been against? Why aren't you out here in the streets with us?

Direct action with large numbers of people can make a real difference. Consider this SECOND quote from Martin Luther King, Jr., and see again why he really was an occupier from back in the day:

"A delegation of poor people can walk into a high official’s office with a carefully, collectively prepared list of demands. (If you’re poor, if you’re unemployed anyway, you can choose to stay in Washington as long as the struggle needs you.) And if that official says, ‘But Congress would have to approve this,’ or, ‘But the President would have to be consulted on that,’ you can say, ‘All right, we’ll wait.’ And you can settle down in his office for as long a stay as necessary."

Yes. This is how it's done. If you want change that matters for real citizens right here on the ground, this is how you get it done. They know what to do with violence but they have no idea what to do with tactical non-violent direct action. It befuddles the 1%. They look bad if they allow their offices to be occupied by protesters. They look bad if they arrest or rough up peaceful protestors who look like middle America. Then it is the 1% who are stuck and only we have the power to release them. A pretty good position from which to negotiate. Sure beats throwing bottles at tanks.

23 Comments

23 Comments


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[-] 2 points by asauti (-113) from Port Orchard, WA 12 years ago
  1. All who join must make a formal commitment to Non-violence.
[-] 5 points by ARod1993 (2420) 12 years ago

Absolutely. The more vandalism and/or violence committed by (or easily pinned on, I don't care which) our members the more likely this thing is to implode, and I don't want to see that happen.

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

I'm right there with you. We need to realize that violence is EXACTLY what the 1% are hoping for. They know exactly what to do with violence. They all 1,000,000 times the brute force we do. But King and Gandhi showed us that brute force isn't necessary. They showed us that the right leverage applied in the right place at the right time can change everything.

[-] 0 points by florian (-2) 12 years ago

The recent GA in Oakland voted 70% in favor or using violence.

[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

If that's true, I'm sure people who voted that way meant well. They're as frustrated as your or I (or more so) at the way the game has been rigged by elite members of te 1%. It really is intolerable. But if we're going to do anything about it, we have to get tactical an practical. And throwing bottles and using small shields against a massive force ultimately backed by a huge military isn't going to work. What will work is nonviolent direct action. This is the forceful route. Rather than playing into their hands, it TIES their hands.

[-] 1 points by LetsGetReal (1420) from Grants, NM 12 years ago

Do you have a link to that information?

At least, there appears to be strong voices within OO that oppose the violence and there is talk of a split.

http://occupyoakland.org/2012/01/is-it-time-to-ask-or-demand-that-certain-people-leave-oo/

[-] 0 points by April (3196) 12 years ago

The anarchists are running this movement and blocking anything from happening that they don't want to happen. This is how the minority rules the majority. They are systematically blocking the progress of the Demands Working Group. Read the Demands Working Group minutes.

Direct Democracy as decision making is so completely flawed and is being used by the anarchists for manipulating the movement. So much so that even the Demands Working Group knows this.

Nothing is going to change so long as the anarchists are running this movement. They easily block any change with a 10% downvote.

http://www.nycga.net/groups/demands/docs/minutes-meeting-december-20-2011

Itzak: a 10% minority can block it. Disagreement on issues where we deeply disagree- we have very different approaches. There are social democrats, there are also those who want radical changes. Different principles, and that’s the limit with the issues, they have to confront the issues. Third group doesn’t want a group. They want an anarchist paradigm. The first two can come to a compromise. The third group says we are functioning an different universe. How do we keep the three groups functioning is a serious problem.

Jay: i think that OWS is very undemocratic. The GA is set up to prevent change. It privileges those who want to prevent change and prevent action. The 90% rule is deeply anti-democratic. I agree that we need to work with other groups. But a minority should not have the power to block change.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

I think what you're missing April is that the NYCGA is no longer able to contain the movement. To their credit, what they began has spread worldwide, in some cases thanks to events that proceeded September 2011. Lots of brave people outside our nation laid the groundwork. Now the movement is rising worldwide. Amazing.

The point is that a huge number of Americans are focused on income inequality and getting the money out of politics. CBS News and USA Today polls repeated showed that 40% - 50% of Americans supported those core values of the movement. That is cemented in people's minds and can't be " unbranded". That spirit is very nearly immediately reawakened when the TV news shows yet another son or daughter or grandmother of middle America being tear gassed, pepper sprayed or hog tied for standing up for the simple values that were so dear to our founders.

We have no idea how close we are to winning this. As Pete Yorn said so wisely: "You're all caught up in the words you're repeating over and over again. This day is alive.". There's nothing that can stop us now. There's nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.

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[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

Stay tuned

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[-] 0 points by April (3196) 12 years ago

Do you honestly believe that this movement is gaining support? Sure, it has maybe helped raise awareness. 40-50% of Americans may support some of the messages. But they don't support the movement. Is .0001% even supporting the movement? No.

The message is not more important than the methods. The methods are anarchy. The results will be anarchy. Do you honestly believe that good decision making can come from Direct Democracy methods? Even the Demands Working Group knows this is flawed and manipulative. And they are being blocked from any progress by a 10% minority of anarchists who are not at all interested in any demands, or anything resembling working with and through government.

So long as this movement is run by anarchists nothing will change and this movement will continue losing support.

Are you honestly satisfied with the way this movement is going? The violence, the lack of direction?

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

April - you're lost in the weeds. Zoom back to the forest. This movement has outgrown all that. It can no longer be controlled. It is a movement to get the money out of politics and that is cemented in people's minds no matter what the minutes are of a particular working group. This movement has entered the collective consciousness and that can't be undone. The spirit to overthrow the hijackers who have bought and paid for candidates can be reawakened quickly and that won't change. Nothing can stop this movement now. No ink on a page of notebook paper by the secretary of a working group, no bottle thrown by a disaffected person who's completely fed up.... Nothing can stop an idea whose time has come. The money will be extricated from politics. It's going to happen.

[-] 0 points by April (3196) 12 years ago

Everything that I have read in the GA minutes just confirmed what I already knew. I'm not surprised by it. I am only surprised to find that the Demands Group seems as frustrated and disgusted with the methods of this movement as so many other people are.

And you know what, the reason more people are not demanding changes in this movement is because those people that believe there should be changes in the movement are gone.
G - O - N - E , gone. You've been around long enough, you know this! That is why the movement is losing support. There is nothing left but like minded people who think that this whole anarchy nonsense is a good idea, a few new curiousity seekers who quickly find this an exercise in futility, or the few frustrated but determined ones beating their heads against a wall like those in the Demands Group.

You didn't answer my questions. Are you satisfied with the way this moving is going? Yes or no? Do you think it is going well? The movement is losing support and money. Why do you think that is?

Do you think that good decision making can come from Direct Democracy? Where a 10% minority controls the decision making?

Not even to mention the decisions that are made behind the scenes that never even go through the GA or any Working Group. Read the minutes. The Demands Group complained of this as well.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

It's almost like it'a the late 80's and you're on studio 54 in New York (which has no people in it) and you're declaring that "nobody goes out in new york anymore.". Poke your head outside the door and look around. Seriously. This movement has enormous support -- people want the money out of politics and are seriously juiced that a movement is finally taking on the corporate interests that have hijacked this damn good country. They will come out in droves to help.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

OK - I think I understand our disconnect here. I think you are equating this website and the general assembly meetings of NYCGA with "the movement". Those two things added together represent 2% of the movement on a good day. I'm not insulting your intelligence. You are clearly highly intelligent and you seem to be absolutely committed to success of the movement and genuinely frustrated by many of the things I am. Where we differ is that you are FAR more worried about the goings on among a group of 100 - 200 people than I am. This movement has millions of supporters and they know exactly what this movement is about: fairness, getting the money out of politics, income inequality. We're well on our way April. Just wait til April!!! This is going to be a positively delicious spring.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 12 years ago

People agreeing with the messages and coming out to support it are two different things. The droves of people are gone.

Yes people want money out of politics. But that is not the goal of the movement. See the News page. The goal of the people running this movement is to demonized authority. Anarchists are against all forms of authority. "Regime Change in Oakland", "Wear Black to Fight Back". That's a great message to send to any potential new supporters coming to this site. Its crap, its propaganda, meant to incite violence. Who do you think writes these News articles. There is no Working Group for this, no cross section of people writing this stuff, no voting on it at a GA. It is the anarchists running the movement that are writing these articles.

The few people that you are not worried about - are the ones making all of the decisions. Thats why I am worried about them.

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[-] 2 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

I agree. Non-violent direct action and non-violent civil disobedience are the most powerful forms of resistance. This is how we win.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

It's a big commitment but it's worth it because it WORKS! Tried and true.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

Quick question: what form would that "formal commitment" take? I'm asking honestly.

[-] 0 points by asauti (-113) from Port Orchard, WA 12 years ago

I suppose it would be "signing their name" to a document.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

I think a simple statement on the home page along with a consistent disavowal of any violence or perpetrators of violence would do the trick.