Urgent: Winter Donation Needs
Posted 13 years ago on Oct. 29, 2011, 10:54 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt
It's been dumping snow here in NYC all day, high winds and 3 inches of slush on the ground. With the NYPD and FDNY confiscating six generators on Friday and this unprecedented October snow, those occupying Liberty Plaza in downtown NYC are in need of emergency supplies crucial for cold weather survival (and occupation).
We've made a lot of headway on getting winter gear here in the last 48 hrs but definitely need more. Please help by purchasing or donating supplies directly. Winter gear and other necessities can be dropped off in person, delivered, or shipped.
Needs
- insulated gloves, wool hats, scarves
- long underwear / smart wool thermal socks
- 300 hand warmers, 300 foot warmers
- waterproof boots in all sizes
- disposable shoe covers
- winter coats
- hot beverages
- thermal heaters
- all weather sub-thermal sleeping bags
- tarps
- all-weather tents
- foam padding / insulation for inside of tents
- wooden pallets to get tents off the ground
- cots to get people off the ground (don't currently have any - could really use these)
Dropping Off In Person In NYC
Daily until 9pm at the OWS storage space at 52 Broadway Ave, ground floor.
After 9pm at the OWS Comfort Station on the east side of Liberty Square (aka Zuccotti Park)
Where To Ship
Occupy Wall Street
118a Fulton St
PO Box 205
New York, NY 10038
Please show your support for the stalwart occupiers who are braving the winter storm!
OWS has over $300,000 in donations to spend - use that first before you ask for donations. Have someone go to the store and buy things and pass them out to the group.
I read that your movement has $500,000. Can you use some of these funds for your winter weather needs? Not to sound callous, and I'd love to help you out, but I'll never see 500,000 in this lifetime.
I'm worried about getting something they already have -- then, it will be WASTE. If there were only a registry, this would be a non-issue. Peeps, come on -- my neighbor could figure this stuff out for her wedding. This is way more important, and you'll have what you need without extra goods that would just be wasted.
Even better, invest that 500k in some vehicle that will turn it into 5million....oh wait, that would bring us back to Wall Street wouldn't it????
www.asusoeff.com
You're right! Haha! But i read that the occupiers have only spent $50,000. Why are they sitting on the rest of the money?
they are doing both-- last night the GA approved spending money for salt, for instance.
How dare you ask for donations of clothing you already own but have simply left at home. There are truly needy people who should receive these donations either directly or through one of the many legitimate charities, churches, synagogues, and mosques who routinely collect and distribute them. You appear to be perfectly capable folks who could do better work with our "protest" time by volunteering in a homeless shelter, hospital, or children's after school program. You ave made enough noise over the past few weeks...now go do something productive to help another human being.
Lol! Nice try.
Good point!
It's almost come time to make this an official movement of sorts. I have been down to the park with you, I have marched with you but with bad weather coming, not that I doubt your bravery, we must strike while the iron is hot. Suppose the winter gets the better of us? What is the game plan then? I am a life long New Yorker and the winter here is brutal, I worked outdoors for 15 years, it is not for the sort of people I see down at Liberty Square. Especially not after dark that is when it really gets cold. I wanted to come down in a show of solidarity through the cold night but my friend told me to bring my own tent and supplies. On the train? He also told me he used his own money to buy his tent and supplies but people thought you had gotten donations. YOU NEED TO MAKE THE TRUTH OF THIS MATTER CLEAR TO PEOPLE. Did you or did you not get donations? Do you need more and what happened to the money you did get. While insiders might know, the caring public does not. How the hell are people supposed to donate when they think you have money and just aren't spending it? What is going on down there, have you become so engrossed in the parks culture that you are forgetting they are many more people in this movement than the 300 or so sleeping in the park? I see people asking to donate on other sites and on Facebook, a lot of people don't know about this site. We are the children of the internet and vital information seems to be stagnated. The occupiers will suffer because of this through the cold nights as you cry out for help that won't arrive in time.
Maybe some of you will make it through the winter with the help of many people across this great nation. But I'm just saying what if most people leave the park in December, January or February? I think you guys are underestimating the winter. I see calls going out for winter gear after the storm hit rather than before. Bad planning. Who is responsible for this, the comfort working group?
My profession now is a fund raiser. If we start to move in some sort of direction and get some organization with transparency in place we can get all the funds needed to push this movement into the next phase. I am good at what I do, a few dozen people like me could hit doors hard and get the money sorely needed to prepare for winter.
Many people believe and back up this movement but main stream is waiting in the wings, waiting for a clear message to come forth out of the occupation. If main stream gets behind us we can affect change like never seen before. Washington will bow before this movement. They always fear the sharp point of a voting mass. We have the power of the internet to include everybody. Full transparency will add to our power. It's time to push this movement into a new direction and figure out how to turn this energy into change that will last through all the winters.
You guys are brave. You are my heroes. Many think like me. When I visit the park and march with you on other times, I know we are doing the right thing. You guys occupy and are the heart of our movement. Never in my life have been prouder to be a New Yorker and an American. Main stream will not wait forever. We need to get serious about our message and find a way to accomplish our mission which is to reclaim the American Dream from the 1%.
God bless you all. This is what Democracy looks like.
They have over $500,000 in donations but it's supposedly divided up amongst "working groups" and I don't understand what they are doing with it. They keeps saying a large portion is being spent on food. I have seen food DONATED in huge amounts every day so I don't know where they are buying their food.
You articulated something I wanted to say, but couldn't find the words- many down there have become so entrenched in the culture of the park, they forget.
Cui bono, that is the real question isn't it?
Well we don't know how much money they have, that's the problem. The bigger this grows the more unorganized it is. Yeah they have come entrenched and the tide is starting to turn a little. I have been active since about three weeks in and while I have a job and can't be at the park 24/7 I see a sea of people supporting the movement online. There is no information flowing just generic information and march information but the human element information is nowhere to be found.
So I guess the people at the park figure nobody else matters but them I have friends down at the park, some are sick, some are spending their own money while they ARE the occupation. Doesn't make sense. We are the children of the internet and what main street wants to know, we aren't giving it to them. They are just feeding the park with that information and the park people are just trying to survive and can't see the forest from the trees.
I saw people asking many questions on Facebook yesterday about where to donate, no reply from anybody. I was throwing up this address but it should be up in bold on that site. Trolls are also ruining the FB site, no admin in sight to stop people from saying the most trashiest thing about the movement. Profiles with 5 friends are running amuck. I know it's only Facebook and Liberty Square is the heart of the movement but some people who support the movement only know how to use Facebook. Why isn't the movement using the biggest social site in the nation for support. We could use the 300,000 supporters on that page, M.Z. is a scumbag who sells our private information, I get that, but for now let's use it until ahhhh forget it this is falling on deaf ears anyway.
This movement is trying to create a new world but only at the Occupy places while main stream wonders what to do. A new world order? WTF When there are real changes we could make? A step at a time is how change is made. So the masses understand what direction we are heading. No direction from OWS. So in the end it will probably be a bunch of homeless, jobless people who had the backing of the world yelling out into the silent night.
They say the storm hit them out of nowhere, we knew it was going to snow last Tuesday, it isn't a conundrum how to tell if it's going to be bad weather. This is a prime example of all the working groups they have who can't see the forest from the trees. Workshops and G.A.'s are great but real world stuff is more important. I saw they changed the like button to twinkle on the G.A. site and said it was an insider joke but then again we are all insiders.... Made me laugh, I heard it was getting a little cliquey at the park and now a lot of thing on the sites seem cliquey , not just the twinkle button. I guess it's turned into a wink wink kind of "Give us stuff" "Don't worry we got this" kind of thing. The kind of transparency is the stuff of back room deals and this movement is starting to acquire that aura Sad to see.....
The police and city officials are not forcibly moving people out of ows in NYC the way they are in the rest of the country because they are relying on the cold to make people want to leave and they are aware that there are problems from within and they figure it will self-destruct. I don't know. I think it could go either way.
I agree with you about FB and getting information out there. I have not even been on the FB page for ows but I know a lot of people use FB for information about stuff like this. I mean, this movement was born out from the internet so I do find it strange that there is not much going on in terms of creating more awareness and internet presence from ows online. There is a definite lack of information online. I don't even come on this forum much at all. I would hope that if the reason is because of lack of wifi or computers or something technical like that, they would speak up and ask for help. But it also might be that it is difficult to go online when it's this cold and you're outside and just trying to stay warm and survive. I don't know, but I agree with you.
It's only gotten cold in the last week or so, lack of information has been going on for the last 6 weeks or so. Are you suggesting that everybody administrating this website is living at the park? Do you really believe that? So wait, the main focus is just on surviving? lol Wow, I never thought of that. It's even worse than I thought. Not only is the occupation self absorbed but nobody is thinking what to do next. No wonder they couldn't figure out a very minor snow storm was coming. Well at least they know what time the next general assembly is going to be. Thank God for that, real change is coming..... eyeroll
NY Cares OWS All America! Join the revolution! We love you all! I'm sorry for the haters. AMERICA JOIN TOGETHER!
Actually if you look at the turnout of New Yorkers, we don't give a s**t. In a city of more than 8 million people, what is the most that have turned out to protest? Of those, how many are not from here, a couple thousand or so? That gives you an idea how much New Yorkers, especially Manhattanites care.
My wife and I were big supporters of this in the beginning. We watched the live stream. We sent money. We sent food. We tried to get answers to important questions like, "what is the plan for November, what is the plan for the cold, and what is your message?" We wanted to help, but our concerns were seen as criticism in the live stream chat, and we were both banned from the room by the so called moderators, as were many other people.
We are from Arkansas. We are definitely 99%. We represent a large demographic of Americans, and now we feel as though the movement has nothing to do with us. You blew it NYC. You had our attention for a moment, but you wouldn't listen to anyone. You have squandered America's minute attention span. Do you think it will be as easy to get next time.
Now you are hungry, and freezing your nuggets off. OWS seems to us to be a closed group of narcissistic hipsters who are mostly interested in being important. I suspect we are not alone. The only reason that Bloomberg hasn't dropped the hammer, is that he studied you and saw that you are not committed enough to stay through the cold.
Enjoy the holidays on the streets of Manhattan, smart guys. Or will you just go home? We are really disappointed. We had high hopes for this movement. We spent over $2k on you guys. That is a lot of money for us. It is truly a shame that this movement will die for lack of a plan, or a message. When you come back in the spring, few will take you seriously.
Philpux-If you donated 2k to the movement and couldn't get a civil response from people or got brushed off, you're right to be pissed off, and nobody can ask you to change your mind. All anyone can do is offer some explanations about why you got brushed off. What I'm going to say sounds weird, and I'll explain the logic in a second. If you change your mind and want to keep supporting OWS, keep raising objections like this. It's what people need to hear. If not, well, you've said your peace.
Here's the logic. Because it can't exclude anybody from participation, OWS effectively has to accomodate (in many cases, feed and shelter) everyone--even and especially people who are totally unreasonable and disruptive. At the same time, it has to manage its image and everyday operations under glaring media scrutiny while claiming to represent 99 percent of the entire country. This means that on the ground on the park there is positivity. There is also lots and lots of stress and conflict. We have shelters for the homeless in America, and we have political action campaigns. But most of the time the political action campaigns are not directly run by homeless shelters. That is why on the surface, things run smoothly. OWS is different.
The only justification I can think of for doing things in this different way is that, in the US, running things smoothly tends to involve throwing somebody under the bus. It happens at workplaces, and it happens in politics. To throw somebody under the bus in that specific kind of way, there has to be a boss, and a hierarchy, and a certain kind of legal situation. OWS doesn't have any of those things. The fact that it doesn't is completely a by-product of the fact that it's occupying a park. For example, nobody can appeal to the police to fix the problem when things start getting out of hand. It's scary and crazy and weird, but it makes people, on one level, equal.
The totally reasonable expectation that you can send something in on a livestream and it won't be summarily dumped by some dude, in practice, requires that some dude in question has a sense of responsibility. Most people get their sense of responsibility in life from how they deal with the boss, the kids, whomever, in contexts that are pretty familiar to them. But OWS is trying to create a sense of responsibility among a set of strangers with nothing in common besides a political ideal, and in some ways not even that. That's why there are bizarre conflicts over things like drum circles. The tendency has been for whoever is yelling the loudest to get the most attention. This is definitely not how everyday life (say, in line at a bank) in this country works usually.
In other words, the only reason to support OWS is really, if you believe that society should be radically non-exclusionary: to use less fancy language, if you believe that nobody should ever get thrown under the bus. I know it's a strange thing to say.
But like you say, the only way for OWS to demonstrate that it's not a closed circle of hipsters and actually, say, a bunch of laid-off IT guys, is to treat people with a little more respect. The fact that the 99% out there isn't the boss in the sense that say, some guy is the boss at a workplace, doesn't mean the 99% isn't the boss in another sense.
Right. The OWS people on the ground in NYC need to listen to the people that are watching them, and supporting them. They act like a kid that insists on doing something their own way despite any information to the contrary of their methods. They are throwing something under the bus. They are throwing the legitimacy of their, dare I say, our movement under the bus. No one individual has to be sacrificed if the group can simply consolidate their concerns into one simple demand, such as campaign finance reform.
We make demands, they co-opt them. We designate leaders? They decapitate the movement by corrupting or undermining them.
Do the 99% want campaign finance reform (in favor of the people and against Plutofascist Corporatism)? Of course we do, and everyone knows we do, so why do we need to say anything more consolidated?
...because the masses are not getting it.
Or perhaps they don't agree, yeah that couldn't be the answer...right
I think your statement points to the core of the problem. OWS Livestream gives the appearance of avoidance on important issues. They are defensive to any tough questions or comments.
That's what I meant, They are allover the place. The tea party seemed to have one single message, these guys are a mix of marxists, hippies, liberals, libertarians, commies among other less desirable types.
These are Americans who deserve a voice. They just need to decide what they want to say. We are listening.
I will listen if they hit home on an issue that has affected me, I know no one that is hurting. Maybe I should talk to one of you guys on the phone, get to know you and listen to an actual persons problems.
I live in one of the poorest counties in the nation. Trust me, there is pain out there.
I will send ya cash if you need it!
Because the organizers and the big money guys funding this don't really want Campaign Finance Reform - they want to overthrow capitalism. They use a Trojan Horse by attempting to co-opt the 99%. They don't really want "open democracy" they want full on socialism where no one who owns a business can profit off of it over what the "majority" decides is a fair wage. They don't really want fair taxation or a re-write of the tax code, they want to tax those who they feel make too much money in order to fund their over throwing of capitalism...
They won't come up with one demand because if they did, it would be "over throw capitalism" and that would destroy their "Trojan horse".
What "big money guys" are funding this? Have you got photographic evidence to back up your assertions? Or do you just believe everything Glenn Beck says?
Don't listen to Glen Beck or to Fox News. I read whats available on line...including the leaked emails of the organizers of this - who are paid professional "activists" for the most part representing various groups. Wouldn't it be interesting to see a list of the donors of the $500,000 that has been collected to date?
Don't be so naive. Who do you think is paying for the ACORN and SEIU shadow government that is running the puppets around?
Aren't you missing an Alex Jones/ Glenn Beck broadcast somewhere? Go back to sleep. All is well.
Never heard of Alex Jones. Hardly ever watched Glenn. Thanks for the update, however. Excuse me, but I have to get back to exploiting my workers to pay for the new gold faucets on my yacht . . .
Ugh, you Faux news zombies really need to work on senses of humor!
Yes. Watching a serious news channel makes you a zombie. Chanting back with a bunch of bongo drummers makes you enlightened.
I know this will fall on deaf ears but...The Main Stream Media, Faux Noos, ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, NPR, MSNBC, Bloomberg, the WSJ, Time, Newsweek, the Post, The Times, The Tribune, The Sun-Times, you name it...they all belong to the 1%...they are not fair, balanced, or just. They are part of the Plutofascist Corporatist system of controls over our lives.
Yeah, I'm in agreement with this. It's one of the problems of the solution, but it's a problem I guess we should live with - the guy who runs the OWS IT is an actual person, so he or she is going to be prejudiced. It sucks, but until I figure out how to develop a website (or even go beyond basic email and posting) I guess I'm stuck with it.
They haven't lost my support, and as far as I know my comments haven't been deleted, but something really weird did happen that's kind of messed up. I was trying to type "R. Paul's" name (you know, that Ron P. guy?) and for whatever reason it kept changing his name to "Ron Lawl" every time I typed it out in full. I'm not even a Paul supporter, I just was making a comment. What's up with that, guys?!
Ron Lawl . Ronpaul. If you make it one word it's not corrected. I wonder what other words they autu correct? Let's see...Dick Cheney, George W. Bush..Nope, nothing there....hmmm....curious.
Okay, that is weird. idk
Is it weird that my first thought wasn't "why do they want to censor that name," but "I wonder why they went with "Lawl"?"
Nice summary. Kids need to listen to their elders but, sadly, that virtue is long erased from our culture . . .
We all need to listen to each other.
You're not getting my point. Culture comes from how society and the economy actually function, not 'virtues.' People out there are crazy and pissed-off and self-centered because the pressure of the economy is making them that way.
No, I think people get that way generation by generation due to the curse of affluence. I don't know how to avoid it. In the olden days kings launched Crusades to keep their high-powered, well fed knights from tearing the empire apart from within . . .
I can't think of any contemporary application of your theory that doesn't immediately strike me as bonkers.
Your wife and/or you, should consider signing up for the South Super-state Parliament. And on 1/1/2012, you and all US residents and voters may start all over with us and join the national 1000-member elected team to be elected on 8/6/2012.
http://www.usparliament.org/ss6.php
No individual, no president, no queen, no princess, no prime minister, no secretary, no member, no voter and no non voter is more important than the team. The team. The team. The team.
Sorry to hear that the snarkiness of online moderators and commentators has made you cynical. I've seen that side of the online occupy world, and it's lousy. However, that doesn't in any way match what I've seen on the ground the half dozen times so far I've visited Occupy Wall Street to contribute food, blankets, clothes. The mood there is polite, positive, determined, organized (despite what mainstream media are saying), even in today's snowy-rainy weather. Thank you for your support, and I don't think the chance is blown. Not remotely..
I support OWS online and on the ground any way that I can. With that said there is too much money that is being spent for things that it was not specifically donated for. That is referred to as stealing. Since you are speaking in terms of 'kids' kids get burned with hot irons for less. Please don't think that the people online or the ground of OWS are beyond reproach. Wrong is wrong. I have emailed twice now and not ever heard back from anyone? I know if I were donating $$$ I would have received immediate reply.
I'm sure they are all very nice people, but they owe it to their supporters to be effective. It looks to me like the protest has degenerated into a cold wet party in NYC.
I'm lucky in that I live nearby, so I can literally hand my donations to the people volunteering there. I have occasionally been hurt that people didn't jump up and down for joy when I arrived-- but I have to remind myself, they are volunteers. They aren't my minions who have to thank me out of fear that I won't give them more in the future. They're just human-- overworked, unpaid, stressed-by-living-in-a-fishbowl humans. (It really is weird, everyone is taking pictures-- I carried a box of gloves on Friday and someone walking through just aimed his camera and snapped a pic of me: didn't smile, didn't ask permission, just took a piece of my privacy. I wasn't seeking attention, I wasn't navel-gazing, I was trying to help my fellow human. Multiply that strange encounter a hundred times for a hundred days... I would get surly fast.)
What I've found is that when I stand still, and wait for someone to notice me, they sort of blink and their faces break out in smiles and they are really, deeply grateful. The pressure of being both a Perfect Democracy in an imperfect environment, and Perfect People with all the cameras pointed at them... that's hard. And the people on the ground, needing the gloves and the food, are not necessarily the same people with access to computers/ online communities.
Especially at the beginning, the people who were most active in the day- to- day running were scared. I mean, they were other things, too-- but defiance for middle class people is frightening. (Er, speaking for myself, anyway) They wouldn't use last names, for instance. Both to protect themselves and, I think, the process. Making it about principles rather than personalities.
Also, what with it being completely volunteer- run, the needs stay the same but the people (and their personalities) change. One day the person running the kitchen is a fresh-faced kid, the next it's a long haired grandma. They are going to have different ways of handling... well, everything... and because no one is in charge I can't say, "Let me speak to your manager"... I have to be happy with what I get-- or step up and involve myself more.
It can feel like a bit of a black hole, throwing money and goods in and not knowing what happens to them. But I can tell you that when we were visiting and my son cut himself on a piece of plastic from a donated cracker and cheese snack pack, we walked over to the medic area and they wiped it clean and put a band aid on: they didn't ask for ID or insurance. They just helped. It's a rigorous equality: you are not given more attention, the more you donate. (Though I donate because I can't spend much time there, and I want to do my part, be a part of it.)
They are struggling with transparency. But I like that it's a real goal of the whole experiment. And I know that the Super Committee of Congress, with all its comfortable beds and very nice healthcare, would not give me the time of day.
my two cents. :*)
Very well said. I like it. I really do love the movement. I am almost too anxious for it to succeed. nomanomanomanoma
I knooow. :}
I get so scared. One morning-- in fact, it was several hours after the threatened cleaning didn't happen-- I was hanging out at Liberty, after everyone else had gone to their 9-5 jobs, and I started talking with this other middle aged person who was also at the edge of the park observing. Turned out he was a poet from Brooklyn. I cried at him. "Don't worry," he said, "It takes time. But it will happen. History is with us."
I felt deeply reassured by him and his words. In many ways, this group has already won. I am really glad that Oakland took the lead on the General Strike-- just like there is no one leader-person, there shouldn't be a leading occupation. Taking turns, sharing the spotlight.
...and if OccupyWallStreet does a Snowbird and spends the winter months in Florida... who says it can't fly back? Who says that without people freezing their toes off at Liberty, the rest of us can't get our dignity back?
Cheers, alia http://alia-gee.blogspot.com/
Florida is a good idea. Migratory protesters. I'm not being sarcastic, I like it.
Remember you are talking about brave people who are spending time out in the cold and facing police brutality. That doesn't sound like my idea of a party.
I'm only speaking that way about outside observers perceptions of what is going on, not the reality. The information vacuum caused by the lack of a clear message has let the movement become co-opted in the press.
Philpux, you seem to think a material contribution should buy influence toward your personal agenda at the exclusion of everyone else. If you haven't noticed -- and apparently you haven't -- that's contrary to the point of this whole thing.
I think it is you who has missed the point, my fine feathered friend.
I don't think they are asking for influence, but maybe some accountability? $500,000 is a lot of money and there seems to be no accounting or communication of what was received or how it is being spent. Any donor has a right to know these things.
This is just a rough estimate since I haven't come across any official records yet and also because i'm really bad at economics but lets try and take a look:
$5/person (daily food and maintenance for occupiers)
1000-3000/persons daily needing to be sustained (very rough estimate, and conservative at that).
$5000 - $15000 /daily for sustenance of occupiers
(40 days)
$200000 - $600000 (for minimal daily sustenance of the occupiers thus far).
====================
Come on, now Wall Street. I'm not even a banker and hate economics yet I can work out this simple math and you have no idea where to begin?
I'm not Wall Street first of all, but I can write a budget and read a financial statement. Second, you assume static numbers when OWS likely has continued incoming donations (cash flow). The balance sheet would likely look as you state for expenditures (although I also understand much of the food has been donated locally as well, so actual costs would be lower or vary significantly). But on the revenue side, you still have money coming in through donations. The expenditures and revenue make up your budget and what you have left over each month is surplus or if you don't have enough to cover expense, the deficit. OWS keeps asking for more money and donations, but is not showing how they are spending what they have, so for donors, it looks like the money is going down a black hole and they think the worst in the absence of any detailed information and communications.
What donors are asking for (I'm not one and am not asking) is an accounting of what OWS is taking in and how it is being spent. There is no transparency at all, which causes suspicion even if there is no reason and everything is above board. Communications are also poor, which is surprising given that the movement is so internet and communication savvy.
When OWS is granted 501(c)3 status, it will have to keep books, publish the financials and open them for audits by the IRS, so there will be more transparency and accountability. It is actually one of those government things that works well and is beneficial.
According to the IRS website, there is a seven month backlog for determinations. http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=156733,00.html Do you think they can hold out that long? If not where will the money go?
That figure was only used because everybody kept throwing it around without any context (as far as i could see) and using it to undermine to work of the occupiers.
Quiet frankly, I don't want the occupiers to stress about proving their intentions to me as their work, from day 1, has done more to restore my faith in the power of the 99% than any amount of donations could have even attempted to do. I want the occupiers to know that I am 110% behind them, and that their work, effort and spirit in this movement, this revolution, is priceless. Thank you again, everyone.
I've been drafting a letter to send out to all our local non-profit organizations to rally support for the occupiers for the winter, I am planning on gathering winter gear and sending them out to NYC ASAP.
Lets not forget about the occupiers' on-going support for one another when they get unjustly arrested and physically harmed. Injustices inflicted by the state as if we're not even persons, citizens. they treat us like we're animals, enemies at every peaceful protest. Yet the people like the occupiers have always helped each other out in the face of state tyranny. It's time for our police to step on our side and help protect their daughters, sons, mother, father, uncles, and brothers, in this struggle for freedom, freedom from our corrupt economy to start.
$380,000 is published on this site under donate. It doesn't include donations for a number of the working groups and has not been updated in awhile. I don't think it is an unreasonable number to suggest or that donors want transparency and accountability - you know, those same things being demanded of government and businesses?
This is a fair and productive point. In addition to inspiring confidence that donations are making an impact, a breakdown of where the funds stand and how they are being used would also make it more likely for donors to give even more.
I'm sure that there are many would-be donors on the sidelines who would jump in if there were greater certainty about where the funds go. Likewise, I'm sure funds will dry up if the account is an opaque, Madoff-like black box.
$500K is half a million dollars- not "a little savings." The movement began with no money, no bank account, no PO Box, no solicitations, so I hardly think it is necessary to maintain any kind of balance in reality. Just so you know, I am a protester. I am at ows almost every day after work and I do what I can to support the movement. I don't think it's wrong to ask for donations of specific items, but I do think it's wrong that they are not spending the money on buying the most important items right away. In this weather, it becomes a life or death situation and sitting on half a million dollars is stupid and inane. Over the last two weeks, I've seen a shift at ows and I don't like it. I'm beginning to feel more and more uncomfortable and I feel like I'm watching a slow self-destruction. People have gotten too uptight and controlling and it's ultimately going to lead to the end if people don't get their heads out of their asses.
Who cares? Seriously. Occupy Wall Street was just the Chrysalis out of which the Movement has emerged. Even if it fails. The movement will not fail. And the Zucotti camp will be reborn. We're the 99% we're too big to fail, literally.
The 99% is a nice slogan, but more than 50% of Americans currently oppose your movement with the number growing every week as people learn more about the marxist-socialist system you want to impose. When most Americans realize you want to redistribute what they have worked for and will work for in the future, they will reject you in two seconds flat.
You are a liar, Despite the tea party’s efforts to discredit its competitor on the left, Americans are not convinced. According to a poll taken by Time, 54 percent of Americans favor OWS, whereas only 27 percent (half of the favoring amount) support the tea party.
But here's the rub, as more information comes out about the organizers of this and what it they really want, the more support for OWS falls. And if the public has such low opinion of the Tea Party I think the media is responsible for that. OWS has gotten very little mainstream coverage but what is out there is mostly favorable. WaPo for example hasn't shown one "smash capitalism" sign that I 've seen to date, yet went out of its way to find the fringe element at any Tea Party gathering....
Difference here is that a lot of folks are actually looking at what is going on with OWS and not relying on the media. They are reading Tumblir, Facebook, watching the live stream, coming to this site. And it is very very clear what the underlying agenda is....OWS supporters are in large part destroying this movement on their own.
What is the agenda that is clear to you? the only "agenda" I see is giving a voice back to the 99%, letting them have their say. it's not like they all agree on detailed policy, the 99% are not policy wonks. They're hard working folks who want adequate housing for their families, affordable healthcare, equitable income, hope for youth and security for old age. Things none of them has anymore.
Go to FB, Tumblir, or the NYC General Assembly site where there is an almost constant sense of hatred of the "right" - since the 99% are certainly comprised of both "left" and "right", how does a hatred of the right align with the claim that you are the 99%?
Read the leaked emails to see that the original group that organized this actually want to "overthrow capitalism" and our government.
Read one of the first bulletins on this site...where it is made clear that the organizers are using a "Trojan Horse" to hide the fact that they really want to "overthrow capitalism". (August 12th entry)
you're mistaken. 66% of people agree that income inequality is out control. and 87% agree with our right to occupy. And the numbers growing in our favor as the Plutofascist Corporate state continues to show its true, brutal, face to the public. Deal with it.
The polls asks people if they believe income is unfairly distributed, which I think most reasonable people agree with. It did not ask if people would support trading our system for a marxist-socialist one and the ramifications of doing so.
Conduct a poll or wait for one to come out articulating what many in OWS are advocating in detail and see what middle America says.
There are no details to get "in-detail" about. We want what everyone wants, equitable income distribution, security for old age, and hope for youth. period.
Not at the price of socialism or marxism they don't. Wait and see, you are so naive.
could you explain in more detail what you think the nature of the change is over the past few weeks, why you feel uncomfortable, which groups are uptight and controlling and why this will lead to a slow self-destruction. i think it's important the people like you who have given time and energy but now have criticism be heard in detail.
OK, here is the jist of it. Another commenter started to articulate what I feel. I feel like the "occupiers" have become so entrenched in the park culture, they forget.They forget that it's not just "their" movement and it's not JUST about their daily general assembly meetings. I think they have started to get territorial and pushy with people who don't sleep there. I am worried they are going to start to alienate people by becoming so uptight about the rules and culture of the park. For example, I saw a group of maybe 5 people go to one corner of the park because they wanted to make an announcement in front of a camera and they were trying to find an out-of-the-way location. It was not where people were sleeping and they were approached by "security" who kept telling them, "No, you can't come here, you can't go there." Since when? Since when do the occupiers have the right to dictate the way every corner of the park is used? Look, I understand that some order and organization needs to be in place in order for things to function down there, but it is STILL a public space and technically, they cannot tell anyone where or what they can or cannot do in the park.
Another thing that bothered me a bit, and again, this is going to sound trivial and insignificant, but I think that it is these subtle things that when taken collectively, are problematic. While I was waiting in line for food a few days ago, I noticed at one point the line was not moving at all. It's usually a long line and it takes a long time, but there is also always a pattern of moving along. We were in the same spot for 10 minutes- literally. The food was there but I noticed a group of people cutting in line. I didn't think much of it, except that I was annoyed because I think that is so utterly selfish and rude, but whatever. When the line finally moved again and we were standing by the beverages, another small group came and cut in line and someone said something and they said, "we can cut because we sleep here and we are the priority." That did not sit well with me at all. Yes, I understand that if there was a shortage of food, they would be the ones to get it, but there is not a shortage of food and I just felt like that was a horrible attitude and made me feel like I should just go home. I don't want it to be like that, but already, I can tell it IS like that because throughout this post, I've been using "they" and "them" vs "me" which means I already feel separated, even though I am there 4-5 days a week well into the night.
Anyway, we're talking about human behavior and psychology and it's inescapable that people will start to become territorial and form groups (or cliques) and then it becomes "us vs them", which is basically what the movement is founded upon; however, that "us vs them" mentality is not meant to be between the GROUPS OF PROTESTERS. It's meant to be between the PROTESTERS AND WALL ST./government/etc. I feel like THAT is why the movement is going to self-destruct and why it will not last. Not because of the media, not because of lack of money, not because of lack of a single unified message, not because of the police or the weather, not because there is not enough passion behind the movement, but because the culture in the park amongst the protesters is becoming divisive.
The only solutions I can come up with is to either rotate protesters who sleep there or have them switch locations (ie occupy other cities) every few weeks. Since that may prove too much for people, one way to change the entrenchment that is setting in is to physically move the sleeping area to a different corner every week or so. I know it sounds silly, but that small shift would actually make a big difference. In terms of the meetings and leaders ( I know, they are supposed to be called "facilitators" but let's not kid ourselves- they are leaders), I think that it would be better for everyone if there was a way to break up into two or three small groups to hold the GA meetings when they discuss logistics. Each group could discuss the agenda separately without the human mic and at the end, they could work together to form a short summary of the meeting. Then one person from each group would read the summary in the regular GA format so each group could hear (and discuss) what the other group discussed. The groups could rotate every other day so it's not the same people and I think that smaller groups actually makes for better cohesion than the large GA meetings, which have become ridiculously long and much of it is utterly useless.
Anyway, those are my thoughts and suggestions. Perhaps I will bring this to the attention of the "facilitators" tomorrow.
She's actually correct on a lot of things she says but when this movement implodes because of the facilitators short sightedness there will be the true movement in place by the rest of us who don't really care who eats first and who doesn't at some park. The people at the park have done their job and we will forever be grateful to them. Most people want to see real change come from this not a new world order. Not communism but democracy instead of plutocracy. We thought this movement would be one of togetherness and transparency not of "Hey I'll cut this line because I live here" and "Don't stand there because I said so" kind of thing. So while people at the park decide on the worlds fate, lol, while begging for dry socks, the rest of us will continue the conversation the occupiers started.
The problem is that nothing survives with leadership and the OWS folks have just exchanged the word "leader" for the word "facilitator"....its symbolic and nothing more...and with every day that the facilitators have to tighten their facilitation because of "professional vagrants" (like the kitchen staff are now complaining about) the more they will resemble the "real world". Let's hope it wakes some people up....Someone ALWAYS takes control...and then abuses it.
I don't necessarily have a problem with leaders in general, but I have a problem with pretending there is no leadership, when there clearly is. Pretending there are no leaders causes tension because everyone knows there are leaders and that's why they go to those people when there is a problem or to voice concerns. Personally, if I had a problem and went to one of the leaders and some time later at GA, they say "we have no leaders," I would feel like an idiot being played. Like, don't patronize me. We all know what's up, just admit because we've already accepted it. I think it is important that there is no official spokesperson/spokespeople for the movement because that is an entirely different conversation. I'm talking about the logistical and social leadership within the park- not the actual movement/agenda of ows. I just want to be very clear on that. It's an important distinction because the movement of ows is much bigger than the individuals who are sleeping in any given occupation and it's much bigger than the park. I do believe that ows will survive in terms of a movement, but I don't know that the society developing in the park will survive the movement (because they are headed towards self-destruction.)
It does bother me that they are annoyed at "professional vagrants" who come to the park to eat. That is proof they've lost sight of the movement. The whole point is to protest what Wall St et al has done to our economy and our society and how we are the 99%. Any homeless people that come in to the park to eat are also part of us and who we are fighting for so to turn them away is insane and it's scary they are oblivious to the hypocrisy of doing so.
Look, one of the reasons I eat there occasionally is not something I have told anyone because I am mortified. I started a new job last month and it took a couple weeks before I got my first paycheck. Until that check, I was literally searching for coins just to get enough money together for my Metrocard to get to work. I sold virtually every single sellable item I own, except for my computer, my camera and my sewing machine (which I am still considering selling.) I don't even own a bed. I applied for food stamps and was accepted for emergency relief only to find out that in addition to all the paperwork I need to submit (which is fine, I have no problem with proving my status and identity), I would need to get fingerprinted. FINGERPRINTED. That was honestly the final straw for me. I am not a criminal and REFUSE to be treated as such because I happen to be struggling financially. I am not irresponsible and I have never been arrested or charged with anything in my life and they want me to be fingerprinted before I can get help to pay for food! You can purchase a firearm in this country without any of the hassle it takes to get fu$!ing food stamps and you don't need to get fingerprinted for that- hell, if you go to a gun show you don't even need ID! The humiliation and degradation is too much and I would rather die from starvation that submit myself to that kind of b.s. So I went to ows and ate down there. I did my time and stayed for hours in the rain one night until midnight. I've met lots of nice people and had some great conversations. I've also met people I disagreed with and I've had one or two in-your-face-voices-raised discussions. I've helped explain the set-up to a few people who came out of state and given a brief description of how things work down there and what the schedule can be like on any given day. I've collaborated and discussed possible solutions to fix our broken system. I don't feel that by eating a few meals at ows, I'm taking something from anyone else or that I am trying to score a free meal, even if I am scoring a free meal :) Besides, I'm 5'3 and weigh about 105lbs and don't eat much anyway. There is plenty for everyone.
I'm part of the 99% and so are the homeless. The only people who shouldn't be allowed to eat there are the Wall Street execs and the politicians, not that they would ever show up there to eat, but that is beside the point.
Well think about anygirl. She goes to the park like some of us, protests, and gets hungry. Hell, at the time she is an occupier. The food that day is most likely donated or bought for the occupiers, who got the money through donations. So she gets in line. People start cutting the line yelling "We live here, we eat first!" lol WTF I don't know about you but when I have guests at my house, they eat first, it's called being hospitable. The reason why people, like myself, are hospitable is so people will want to COME BACK!
So maybe some people don't agree with with that, they think being rude and being a dick is just part of the culture of the park. A lot of people like the ME ME ME mentality. After all it's what got us into this mess in the first place, it's a popular idea, apparently. So anygirl wants to take a video with a few people, probably to document some thoughts they had. Security comes over and tells them what to do in a public park, lmao. In a public park. Anybody should be able to go anywhere in that park they want and take a video documenting their thoughts. Aside from someone's personal space, of course. But she already claims it was an "out of the way space where nobody was sleeping" alas public space.
What she wrote sums up her experience at the park. She is a supporter of the movement, an active supporter and gets treated like shit. Sounds like a joyous occasion, I bet she can't wait to go back to get treated like a second rate citizen.
Yes, I've spent my time there like a lot of people. I posted a longer reply right above this so feel free to read that. It explains more about why I eat there sometimes too.
I have been feeling increasingly unwelcome and like an outsider there and I don't want to feel that way because I'm part of the 99% too and it's about all of us. I have met some incredibly friendly and caring people there too so it's not about everyone. I just think it's important to voice my concerns and that people start becoming aware of the dynamics before it's too late.
Thank you for your very thoughtful post, anygirl.
The old WalMart tactic. Call your clerks, etc "associates"
Call your leaders "facilitators". Looks like some of your facilitators think they should facilitate themselves first and then move on.
I will have to get back to you on that because it's really hard to articulate and I need to think about how to describe it accurately. I know one thing that has started to bother me is the how in some ways it's almost begun to feel like a clique and a little bit high school. I don't even know anyone there very well- I make a point not to stick with one group or get too familiar with too many people because I don't want to get sucked into that whole thing, but I spend A LOT of time quietly observing everyone and everything. People are just being people. They are forming cliques and talking about each other and losing sight of the bigger picture. At one meeting, for example, one girl spoke about how she felt "certain female facilitators" were taking over and being too bossy and didn't have the right to do XYZ. She said it in direct response to another girl who had just spoken and I can't remember the exact details but basically she was talking about her right in front of her and everyone knew it and it was weird and awkward and I kept thinking, wtf is this shit? I don't know. I really need to come back to this because it's too hard to try and explain right now because I'm really tired.
I don't want you to think I'm slamming the whole thing because I'm not. I had such an amazing experience in Comfort when I was cold. I was shivering and couldn't stop so I went there and said I was cold. They got me a blanket and hand warmers and I just broke down and sobbed- like outright sobbed. The man there just held me until I stopped. I didn't need to explain myself and we never even exchanged names or anything but it was what I needed at that moment and I don't think I've ever experienced anything like that before. I mean, I'm not one to cry at all- let alone in public, let alone in front of a complete stranger, let alone at ows! Lol!
The movement depends on consensus to make decision. It has worked brilliantly thus far. In recent weeks and, perhaps because of the extended time of the occupation, OWS is being faced with questions, both internal and external, that lack consensus to move forward an present consensus that a particular group will not respect.
One instance of the latter are some drummers requests for over $5,000 to replace damaged (vandalized) drums. They feel they are a core part of the movement and that the funds received should provide repair or replacement of the drums. My personal feeling is that one of the strongest and mo most indefensible complaints against OWS does revolve around drumming. Those who love it passionately defend it as "the heartbeat of the movement." For those that live in the neighborhood, it is incessant noise. I want to attract people to our movement, not repel them. Neighborhood support is critical to our continued occupation. I don't agree with the drummers, nor do I agree that the OWS funds are to be used as an "insurance policy" for anyone's private property.
The second issue is with consensus itself and, again, what to do when consensus cannot be reached on critical issues. Although we are a "leaderless movement", certain personalities have emerged that have become dominant. It can be because they are more experienced, they are deferred to or opinion, they lead working groups, or they they simply like being in charge. Most have good intentions, but the trend is disturbing.
We see many of the same people leading and controlling General Assembly. They tend to acknowledge one another and uniformly pause for or defer to other "dominant members". The stack process is flat out unfair. I understand that the movements desire is to see many voices get heard, but I have seen a person line up for stack that is passed up as the facilitators shift speakers they know ahead of new speakers. In my opinion, they are losing both respect and patience or other voices.
This in turn has fomented a split at the GA level. These dominant leaders have now proposed created another level of leaders to act as representatives on a committee that, in turn, will address and vote on financial matters. It sounds vaguely family to the "Super Committee" we now see in Congress that works behind closed doors to decide our future based on budgets and deficits. For OWS, It is a radical departure from consensus and one that has caused many people to step back. Some of the people stepping back are ardent supporters of the idea that gave birth to the movement who are firmly dedicated to the perpetuation of the idea.
While everyone is still motivated by OWS and what it stands for social movement, the politics within it are shifting, as I guess they must. However, many of us are following how it morphs. The work groups know we are following it. We'll see what happens. We all want success.
Footnote: I'm a 40+ protester. Not sleeping at the park, but joining the protesters daily. Unlike those who are running the "media center" I actually tune in to the livestream. My personal opinion is that it is an embarrassment. For the most part we see inarticulate people sitting in front of the camera giggling or chatting to friends walking around. It is one of the most annoying aspects for me as a supporter. It is one thing not to "just do it" with regards to occupying. It is another to broadcast "nothing". Give an update of what is going on, days events, ANYTHING.
The media center is impervious to weather, so why keep it so ragtag?
Totally agree with you "anygirl". Stay safe at the occupation. It's getting pretty heavy out there. It's not just the weather you need to worry about.
Controlling in what way? Be specific friend.
The post right above this. :) Thanks.
The mythical half a million dollar budget doesn't exist and is split between a number of autonomous accounts dealing with various aspects of logistics as far as I know.
It's being reported everywhere. (Yes, I know that doesn't necessarily mean anything, but I have yet to hear one "official" denial or any kind of correction.)
I hate to say this but u at least need some kind of "collective leadership" that is elected by the GA. Other wise factionalism is going to be used to split this up and destroy it. Its the time honored method that the PTB breaks up such "leaderless" movements.
Right. I just posted a longer reply about what I see happening already on this thread that I think explains things better.
Basically I know a bunch of it was raised on the ground, a bunch of it was used for financial support of other occupations, a huge amount of it pays for the food budget (in fact the biggest part of the original donations was to the food committee account before it was made into a general account to buy tents and tarps and what not), occupymedia and the newspaper, along with the livestream are other accounts I know of. These last three account for a chunk of the donations and were done autonomously.
In fact the donations page lists exactly who raised how much (as the half million thing includes a number of other occupations the ows.org team has been helping technically)
Do you know if they have a "house a protester for a night" kind of thing? I don't know what to call it and I keep forgetting to ask when I'm there, but what I mean is have they organized some kind of deal where people who live in the city will house a couple of occupiers for a night or two to give them a chance to get out of the elements for a bit? There are so many different ways to do it so that there would always be people down there, but also giving everyone a chance to come inside once or twice a week for a shower and good night's sleep.
Nothing really official but we do have a few people volunteering showers, for which the protesters are grateful because every once in a while it's nice to feel clean. House a protester hasn't really been tried afaik although I heard some protesters were opening their houses to help people who didn't have access to a tent in the square until we can finish preparations for the winter, especially with that freak storm.
In fact, I seem to recall seeing it reported that way in an admin message here. As well as being reported in the minutes in the same manner when it was ~$300K.
If it's just some various accounts that have money from various sources under the control of various groups and not OWS, then it shouldn't be presented in that way.
I agree, but I don't have any first-hand knowledge of anything, really. I've only been to one facilitator's meeting at 61 Broadway about a week and a half ago and I couldn't understand what the hell they were talking about. I couldn't help but feel strange that the meeting was being held in a huge, fancy office building and I have no idea if they rent that space for meetings or if it's donated space or what. It was strange. It was around that time, I started to feel like there was some manipulation of other groups behind the financials of ows. I don't know. There were a couple of people from the media there but some of the ows people got really upset when discussing allowing the media to cover them and/or the meeting, even though there were no cameras. I spoke with one of the media guys on the way out and he said ows will self-destruct if it carries on this way. I agree.
Most of these spaces are granted by various organizations.
According to the donate page on this site, more than $380,000 has been received, with donations to LiveStream, Drummers, etc. not being tracked, so the number is higher. It doesn't say as of what date this is through. In any case, around $400,000 is confirmed as received.
OWS also recently filed for tax exempt status as a 501(c)3 organization, so, one could assume enough money is flowing in to make avoidance of taxes necessary. As a 501(c)3 org, you'll have to provide detailed accounting of funds received and spent, names of the organization's leadership, and open your books to audit.
Oh, and the availability of the leadership opens them and you to criminal and civil suits.
When did they file? There is a seven month backlog according to the IRS. Isn't it fraud to act as a non-profit without being one?
We're normalizing things, this is the intent of having the spokes council rather than only an adhoc financial committee.
Additionally, we're not sitting on the money, most of it is, as mentioned, the food budget.
Understand what backpackers and hikers know about cold weather:
Cotton Kills.
It is vital that donations be made of quick-drying, NON-COTTON clothing.
Dear #OWS,
I'm 60 and not able to sleep in the park, BUT I support you. Today I closed my BofA account as well as sending them an email telling them why. My reasons: I can not keep my money with an institution that is planning to cut 30000 jobs when the CEO is making millions in bonuses. I am part of the 99%. I will continue to look for ways to show my solidarity. Sincerely, Christy
Wish I was there to be part of it.Viet Nam vet who demonstrated against the war in 1968-69.Things have got to change for the republic to endure,Good intelligent people with a right to state their displeasure with the business as usual lobbyist controlled legislative branch of government, Thank you
Arguing 'Solcialism' vs. 'Libertarianism' vs. etc. is a waste of everyone's time.
Argue for LEGISLATION with the current system or nothing will be accomplished.
yawn
OWS, I support the movement 100%.However, it is time to re-invent the movement. Dr. King did it every chance he got from 1956 till his death. To stay in the Zucotti park during brutal weather,is not a good idea. Please seek shelter,so that you can continue to grow.
Thank you. Sorry for large lettering,don't know how it happen. I tried to fix it.
david157ts 0 points 17 hours ago
don't donate anything to this cause. It's fraud because they censor posts and certain politicians names.
Whoever is receiving the money needs to go under the microscope and I hope they get arrested for fraud.
At first I was in favor of this but not anymore. Open your eyes you're being scammed and playe
Correct.
This 'movement' is nothing more than a Left-wing attempt to get Obama re-elected.
What's so funny is Obama just hired a Wall Streeter to head up his 2012 campaign.
You're all uninformed and being played for saps.
I also donated money and clothes, and will not anymore. The lack of communication and a plan is enough for me to stop. I saw in the minutes that OWS plans to be out of money by December. How do you spend 300k, with out showing where the $$ went? But then they dont use any money to buy the bikes to supply energy after the City took their generators?!
Sorry, but this occupation will be vacated by weather, if you continue this piss poor planning and lack of financial disclosure.
Wouldn't it be better if people donated these goods to those who are really homeless and in need? It's not neccesary to hold the protests outdoors and take from the limited resources that could go to those who have no choice about being on the street. Nothing is stopping you from protesting during the day at different locations. I don't see why it's neccesary to stay out during the winter or understand what it will achieve that can't be achieved in ways that don't deplete already scarce resources.
I'll be donating to GEMS, a NYC organisation for young women and girls in real need - in solidarity with the ideals and goals of OWS.
I support your movement and I donated on several occasions. But with all due respect, if you have about 300k sitting somewhere, go ahead and use it. I will have to stop donations until you clearly show how those donations are used. Again, I support your movement, but I don't want to see my money disappearing in a black hole. Be more transparent, we already have guys who make money disappear, they are called wall street...
Thank you for the donations. 300k isn't as much money as it sounds like when you consider that it has to be used to take care of hundreds of people and there's no assurance that money will keep coming in, but I agree with you about transparency. Maybe somebody should propose at the GA that it should at least set a deadline for when it's going to disclose expenditures.
Wow...and there you have it in what really is a nutshell. They have to "conserve" how they spend their money to ensure it is there when it is needed. Watch it, you guys might actually be confused with "conservatives" if you are not careful.
Concerned: I'm an Anarcho-syndicalist. Shocked?
Absolutely not : )
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ I read that your movement has $500,000. Can you use some of these funds for your winter weather needs? Not to sound callous, and I'd love to help you out, but I'll never see 500,000 in this lifetime. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
I support OWS. I am 54, and I have not been able to find a job in over 2 years. I am an electronic technician. I'm sick and tired of republican fat cat CEOs and CFOs shipping our jobs to China, Mexico, & India so they can increase their corporate profits and personal bonuses. I am a lifelong republican, and I even voted for Pat Buchanan in 2000. But I will be voting democrat in the next election. Republicans have completely sold out the middle class.
Even though I voted for him (2x), I must inform you that Bill Clinton signed NAFTA.
If you think there is any presidential candidate that you can trust them farther than you can throw them then you're more of a trusting person than I. Every single one of them has their own hidden agendas, and they will just feed you what you wan't to hear to get your vote, and then do whatever the fuck they want when they have their seat of power.
Not a single one of them is worth their weight in salt.
The progressive Democrats thank you for your support. Just when we thought the TEA party may do something worthwhile, they seem to be worse than the existing republicans. On Tuesday, November 8th, we will send most of their politicians back to the rallies where they started. Republicans and TEA party republicans (a fancy new name for republicans) are destroying the middle class if they haven't completely destroyed it already. I meet so may people that are republican and independent that are voting Democrat this election day. They are simply squeezed and fed up with the bullshit. Try voting for a progressive Democrat Endzone, they fight for the middle class. Good luck at the polls.
It would make more sense to fix the Republican party (join the Tea Party!) than to join the corrupt, power-mongering, crony-capitalist, racist Democratic party. I think they are beyond fixing, and will soon be extinct.
The core Republican values are freedom and responsibility. Remember, this is the party that fought the Democrats to overthrow slavery!
That republican party, The party started by Lincoln, no longer exists today. Lincoln campaigned on a promise to enact tariffs (which he kept) , to protect US workers and industry. The free market, free trade Milton Friedman inspired neoliberal policies of the Republican party of today have devastated the US economy. If you wonder why there's a job shortage in this country and why incomes have dropped or stagnated, that's why. (ps. The Dems. have not been much better.)
" Remember, this is the party that fought the Democrats to overthrow slavery!" That was a mistake their doing their best to reverse.
The word is "they're", not "their"; it's called a "contraction".
Anyway, I don't get your implication at all. How are Republicans trying to reverse slavery?
Keep it up asshole.
Once again seaglass has (a) reacted with hateful adolescent vitriol, and (b) ignored the question posed to him/her.
Poor, poor seaglass . . . seething with resentment and rage over the unfairness of it all.
Your forgot envy.
Strategies and Expectations (new improved version)
Dear friends,
In my opinion the #Occupy Movement has done everything right by so far only using non-violent protest and organizing. We have to remember that the #Occupy Movement which is increasing in size in the US, but also around the world, is in a growing phase right now. We have to think in long term perspective. Big changes arn´t going to come over night, we´re not going to get total freedom and democracy in a few weeks, this is going to be a long hard struggle. This is the beginning of something huge! Now we´re in a time where we have to GROW: and we grow by doing exactly what we´re doing right now: protesting, making ourselves heard, organize, convince, getting more people to join, enlighten etc. We should also start thinking about organizing sit-down strikes in different areas where the movement has a lot of community support. Then when the Occupy Movement has become a dominant force in different communities and nationwide we can start making big changes thru general strikes, worker´s takeover of workplaces and communities, and in general establishing a more democratic, solidaric, just society.
During this struggle for a free democratic society we have to expect lots of opposition from the elites and their supporters and servants. Not only do we have to expect and prepare ourselves for media-propaganda, we also have to expect more of what we´ve seen lately: police brutality. Its a natural reaction of the finacial elite who are getting more and more scared of the #Occupy movement. The police is a tool of the business-run state to try to crush the ones who want to take back from the wealthy what has been stolen thru bailouts, exploitation and speculation at the stock exchange. The elites are starting to feel threatened, they want to keep all that they have stolen, so naturally they want to stop #Occupy movements with police force. These tendencies are however an indcation that we´re on the right track: The elites are getting scared, and react by increasing their effort in trying to crush us.
The finacial elite will however fail. Police brutality is counter-productive, it just leads to more support and sympathy for the #Occupy Movement among the general population. Besides, as the system we have today affects more and more people, and naturally evolves in an unsutainable way, - like it always has – it will eventually sooner or later collapse in on itself. Increasing exploitation, increasing gap between rich and poor, the huge increasing concentration of private wealth and power, the destruction of the environment, this cannot continue much longer. The world and its inhabitants desperately need a new and better society, and this is the beginning of the end. We´ve had it! We want real change, and we must take action ourselves. The #Occupy Movement will grow for each day, and the more we grow the more the non-democratic finacial elite will understand that their time of controlling our lives and destinies is over . The people will privail, because we are more powerful than private tyranny and its servants.
Videos to watch while taking a break from activism:
Noam Chomsky on Corporations being private tyrannies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqlTyAMVDUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpd3grtjkK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ
Noam Chomsky on today´s society and how to make changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HvGy2gY0eM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN2Q6sdh6Bg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27gfHU6G-hI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cdSoMbwTA4
Noam Chomsky on where we go from here (at #Occupy Boston):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHse0oaddr8
(Entire #Occupy Boston lecture + Q&A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZbNT62aprM&feature=related )
Alternatives to capitalism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJnX96id-xI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDHBvQRyOr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YftlB3AxBws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu8J_UKKa-c
In debth:
Chomsky on today´s state-capitalist society, April 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iebK7VVDayY
Chomsky on Libertarian Socialism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOTBGrrDeXg
Also read my #ows forum post here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/replace-capitalism-with-democracy/
Keep on fighting, keep on growing! Yours S. sff
Greetings, This is Day 1 for me...so I would like to begin to think outloud about some "Strategies and Expectations"...
I live in a rural area, so I my first contribution will be a link to a New York Times article about General Electric Corporation, one of the biggest USA Corporations, and using all of the multi-national and off-shore money tricks and loopholes... to pay ZERO taxes in 2010...with $Billions in profits...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all
The article is truthzone and extensive, so I would suggest people # the paragraphs and underline or highlight certain sentences.
Then, my suggestion "strategy" action plan is to start Identifying major Banks and Corporations as Real current functioning "enemies" or targets of Opposition/Occupation...so that:
This is just a beginning post...all comments and suggestions welcome...
TruthZone has Consequences...
Hopefully, abortion will still be legal under Chomsky's marxist system. That way, there will be fewer of you nutjobs to contend with.
Save America!!! Abort a Lefty!!!
Occupy Wall Street is a totalitarian movement that suppresses dissent. My last account got deleted along with all my posts after arguing with you about the fact that libertarian socialism removes individual rights. This is true for any movement that aims to fundamentally restructure society without concern for the dissenting positions of individuals.
Shouldnt you as a right-winger favor OWSs right to decide over their own property (the ows page)?
So deliting comments are bad but to control huge corporations without being democratically elected, thats jsust fine..?
I noticed the deletions too, and I dont think thats the right way to do it.
If #ows was a fascist movement this would be par for the course and it wouldn't really bother me. #ows pretends to be democratic and open to all opinions, but clearly it isn't. In reality it is just a bunch of hypocrites that can't stomach real dissent.
Now, what the videos under "Alternatives to Capitalism" are advocating is what`s called "Libertarian Socialism" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism ). As we all now the word "socialism" has gotten a bad rep because of propaganda and misuse (even though it originally ment that workers should be in control of the workplaces), but alternatively these kinds of ideas can also be called "libertarian left". But what is the core of the libertarian left? The core is democracy - democratic workplaces, communities and so on; more direct democracy, more particiaptory democracy. Now, by organizing society in this fasion it will become more egalitarian and many hierarcichal structures will therfore vanish. By looking at statements from this movement and how the movement is structured, it seems to me that the Occupy Movement share a lot of the values of the libertarian left. My guess is that a vast majority of the occupy movement that has spread all over the world is libertarian left, or at least libertarian left-leaning. I just mentioned that the core of libertarian socialism, or the libertarian left, if you will, is democracy - democratic workplaces, communities and so on; more direct democracy, more particiaptory democracy, and that is exactly what you should advocate and strive for. Hope you all agree.
sff
i couldnt DISAGREE more. explain please how a democratic workplace would work? it cant work. who decides what to make? where to sell it? whether a high cost plant needs to be closed because its burning cash? more importantly, how does such an entity get capital to build and grow in the first place? the markets wont finance such a leaderless, rudderless, headless group of employees with non-disciplines, non-profit motives. even if they could get capital, how long do you think your democracy company could survive in a brutally competitive global market place? in short, your ideas are utopian, impractical, immature, silly crap.
Hey Joe/haha - The laugh's on you I'm afraid as what Struggle describes is already at work in one of the world's leading economies. A little country called Japan. There - CEO's make only several times (not thousands of times) what assembly line workers make. Japanese corporations are famous for their "bottom up" structure -- where the boss listens to the folks on the line or in the sales force about what it is the company should be doing and how they should do it. There are other aspects to this but the net result of equality in earnings and equality in running the company gives everyone a sense of worth and a stake in the future of the company. Worked out pretty well at Toyota -- it moved past GM as the world's largest automaker while GM's big brains at the top were busy driving the company into the ground and begging for government handouts.
Have you ever been to Japan? I have, many times. If you want to know why the Japanese are so successful, it all boils down to honor. They work very very hard in Japan, with longer days than what most Americans would be willing to put in. All you have to do is ride their subway system to see how hard those people work. I've seen some of these guys on their way home from work on the subway, fall asleep standing up. Why do they work so hard? Because they don't want to dishonor themselves or their family by being lazy. Their is not one place in Japan that I've been where I've felt I was in any danger, and I've been all over that country. As for this country, you couldn't pay me walk through any of these Occupy protest. I would suggest that you not speak on things which you do not know.
You've been thoroughly fooled by the Japanese story. As an analyst (on Wall street!) ive visited many of these companies, and make no mistake, the top managers make ALL the decisions, with the appearance of including, stroking the labor force. Its good for relations, dovetails with the culture. as far as pay goes, dont be fooled by the near parity of salary levels. top managers are compensated in annual stock grants, options, and warrants, worth far more than their published salaries. so haha to you my gullible friend.
Let's try imagine you heard someone saying:
"Representative democracy to replace Monarchy? I couldn't DISAGREE more. Explain please how a democratically run non-Monarchy country would work? Explain exactly in full detail even though it's only the year 1600? It can't work, who decides how to run domestic policy? how to handle foreign policy? How long do you think your democratically run non-Monarchy country could survive in a brutally competitive global world with dog-eat-dog fighting and competition between countries? In short, your ideas about replacing Monarchy with representative democracy are utopian, impractical, immature, silly crap"
Methinks joewealthyhaha and his 'skepticism' is about as convincing as the above quoted paragraph; not very convincing, Joe.
dude, i have no idea what your trying to say. non sensical
Publix is an employee owned and operated company. I see lots of them in Florida.
BNA (Bureau of National Affairs) is another company owned and operated by the employees. It was sold to Michael Bloomburg industries in 2011.
If you do some research on the internet under "employee owned businesses list", you will find many companies that are owned by the employees. Acadia Ambulance Service is one of them and they were among the first responders who got help to the people after Hurricane Katrina.
Publix is another employee owned business.
Joe, well put. In their "utopia" there is no competition - precisely why their ideas would never work.
They don't work in the real world. They have no idea that this idea will fail miserably.
At this time we have financial markets led by leaderless,rudderless, headless group of wealthy CEO'S that have put this country into a spiraling financial downfall.They are the cause of
Foreclosures on American homes
mounting inflation
job loss
college debt
creators of apr and sub-prime interest rates
robber barons of the US Treasury
controllers of political puppets that sit in elected office
We will wil find these GREEDY, leaderless,rudderles,headless group of CEO's and they will be held liable for Treason against the United States citizens.They can't hide forever.
MMi, you are indicative of the people involved in this so-called movement. you have strong opinions but are uninformed and clueless. I'll pick just two of the topics you site. foreclosures on US homes is a result of fannie and freddie mac being forced by Dems to lend to people who could not afford to borrow so every one would have a house. The result was bad mortgages. Period. wall street didnt do it, bad public policy of trying to make homebuyers out of everyone is what caused the mess. the second topic is college debt. who put a gun to whose head and said borrow?
Yes, that's perfectly fine. An acknowledgement of ignorance is the first step to wisdom. Be banished, troll!
this was my posting. so that makes you the troll. (idiot)
For me, the American working class has been in a cult-like addiction of complacency for generations, to the point this generation was in so deep they couldn't grasp the reality of things without the comfort of a giant session of "group therapy." That is what OWS is to me, "Group Therapy." I think, success for OWS would be when the protesters can go back home and apply everything they are trying to emphasize in "group therapy" to their individual lives in their individual communities, stick it out, not fall back onto the wagon of complacency, and use what they have learned to move their communities to act.
I worked in the housing industry from 2000-2008. Fannie and Freddie were NOT the cause of the housing bust or the foreclosures. It was the big greedy banks like Wells Fargo and BOA who created and used no doc loans, sub-prime loans and apr loans. They used specifically for people who mediocre credit,short work history or small or lack of down payment. They were predators on the working and middle class people. These lenders knew exactly what they were doing! They knew that the loans would eventually go into default. These banks also backed shadow mortgage companies.
Spinning liket butter!
What about the individuals that actually purchased the home? Have they no responsibility at all? Were they entirely tricked into buying a home? I think not, they are as much at fault as the banks. I certainly agree with you that the banks acted unethically, but not thinking of the future under the assumption that nothing can go wrong and that house prices will always go up is just as much a fault of the individual(s) that bought the home.
Try talking to people getting loans at that time. Go ahead, ask them! Banks were pushing a REALLY HARD SELL on about 90% of the loans at that time, telling people they could easily take out large sums of money on adjustable rate mortages. Also, Financial Advisors we telling people to get adjustable rate mortgages, too.
Also, try listening to the NPR story about the housing bubble that aired Summer of 2008. They were all but scamming people left and right, with no care but for the huge sums of money coming in.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/355/the-giant-pool-of-money
Be informed, and let's have a discussion, brother.
Zeebr0 - I heard the NPR story before and like I said I am not saying that banks were without fault, and certainly agree that things need to change. However, you could do a similar story of all the individuals who "speculate" or bought more house than they could afford. There is always 2 parties to a transaction. Additionally, how come when it comes to financial responsibility it is always the financial institutions fault when something goes wrong. You would never by a car without doing some research into what car to by, reading reviews etc. Individuals have to take responsibility for their own actions, it cannot always be someone else fault. If individuals had only bought houses that that they could afford, the banks would not have been able create any risky mortgage backed securities.
Yes, yes. Its all the purchasers fault. They are the blame for the foreclosures,the unemployment,the lack of healthcare,the TARP money being given to the TO BIG TO FAIL BANKS,the union busting,the inflation. Yes... the purchasers should shoulder the blame for overpriced homes that are now underwater! The homeowners are the blame for the housing bust, to the so called 9%(14.5%) unemployment and students graduating from college with triple digit debt!! Yes the blame the homeowner for NEEDING a home to raise the American family.(sarc)
MiMI1026 - that is not what I am saying, but what I am saying is that there are 2 parties to a transaction. Yes, I agree that the banks/mortgage institutions acted inappropriately and things need to change. However, we must also consider the other side: what about the individual that for example bought a home that he can afford; housing prices rise and he sells the old house to by a larger house because the value of his old house has appreciated. By selling the old house he can afford to by the new larger house (as long as housing prices continue to rise, or at least do not fall). And perhaps does this again, buys an even larger house, but then prices starts to decline and the individual owes more on the house than it is actually worth. Is the lender really to blame in that case? This is actually the majority of cases of people who are underwater, they bought houses they could not afford and what I am saying is that home-buyers also have a responsibility in all of this.
What Wall Street did do was reconstitute and bundle what they knew were bad-risk mortgages into new and incredibly speculative financial instruments, hiding the true value of them by rating the investments as being much safer than they actually were, then they sold them to institutions like public and private pension funds. Then, when it became evident that the speculative bubble had burst, they went to Bush, and later Obama, and extorted around a trillion dollars "or else the economy gets it". All this while they had made an incredible amount of money from brokerage fees dealing these toxic assets. Then they gave themselves big fat bonuses with the public's money they had just extorted. Instead of being thrown in prison for such behavior, they've managed to get people to defend them by blaming the "Dems", the poor, the college students, etc., etc.
bingo. you are indicative of the people involved in this so-called movement. you have strong opinions but are uninformed and clueless. i count at least half a dozen falsehoods in your comment. Let me address them: 1. Wall street didnt rate the mortgage-backed securities (MBS), the rating agencies did, and obviously the agencies ratings were wrong. There's a reason why they incorrectly rated them AAA, but that's beyond the scope of this chat (and your ability to understand). 2. the collective crowd of 300,000+ employees on Wall Street had no idea these MBS were toxic. If they did do you think Bear Stearns, Lehman, Merrill Lynch, Wachovia and several others would have allowed themselves to own them and then go bust? think about that. Its probable there were some people within some firms that knew or should have known the mortgages were undeserving of AAA, but that's not an entire industry. 3. most firms that took the bailout money didn't want it or need it but were forced to take it so as to not cause a run on the banks that really needed it. people like you seem to not know this, or overlook this. 4. most importantly, ALL the public money given to banks was paid back, WITH A PROFIT. 5. this bailout money wasn't used for bonuses, it was repaid, like i said. Bonuses are paid routinely in this business, sort of like professional athletes. What do you think happens to the team when you stop paying those athletes? they cease to exist; same would happen to a financial firm. 6. Throw who in prison? for what? Even Obama said there was no crime. 7. last comment: when mortgages are properly underwritten (meaning loans are made to people who are employed, make enough, show documents, and put down 20%), then the resulting MBS are fine and typically AAA. This is where the system went off the tracks. Thank you Barney frank and Chris Dodd! You and your ignorant friends in OWS should learn the facts and direct you energies at the real bad guys and stop repeating falsehoods you've heard from politicians on TV.
Well, great, I guess everything is fixed then and we can all go home. Thanks for educating me, I never would have realized that evil socialists forced the banks to take all that money, and ignorant slackers grubbing up free money was the root cause of all this! But, then again, I'm just too darned stupid to understand any of this. Excuse me, while I go check my George Soros talking points. . .
yes, you are.
I guess from your analysis, that the suckers were the public and private pension funds who bought these over valued pieces of paper. And, explain this thing about extorting money from the government for pieces of paper that had already been sold as you state.
A lot of information in that post "reverendjim" Kinda like the old "snake oil" salesmen of old right (just snake oil by the tanker truck not the bottle). What ever happened to the old adage "let the buyer beware"
And I may have just encountered another snake oil salesman of sorts. There is a little truth in your statement but somehow I expect more alcohol than medicine.
Were you not aware of the hundreds of billions of dollars that the banking industry demanded back in late 2008 (Bush) and 2009 (Obama) to purportedly keep the economies of the world running? What do you think that was about?
As far as "pieces of paper that had already been sold", well, I don't know how to address that. Please Google "mortgage backed securities" , and/or "collateralized debt obligations" and you'll get a better explanation of how this occurs than I have the time or inclination to do.
The housing bubble and its collapse were in great part made possible by the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act and the resultant legalization of self-interested gambling by an unholy trinity of the commercial banking, insurance, and investment banking industries.
The public and private pensions were intentionally misled about the value of the bundled mortgage-backed securities; they were not "suckers", but victims of the government-sanctioned and, in the end, funded, gambling spree that was the great housing bubble. The suckers are, unfortunately, you and me.
Suckered all he way by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd, you agree or not.
They aren't hiding!
They are! Waving from the office windows.In there gated communties. On their private islands. In the penthouses with the doormen.Riding in there limos. In plain site!
we live in buildings with doormen in NYC, believe me, we aren't rich.
At lease you know where they are - and I would therefore, assume, "who"they are. Now to the point, who are they. Give me one name and it will guide me in the next financial decision I make.
Your description sounds a lot more like jealousy than a great cause Are you really that jealous of their greed that the only thing you can name are windows, gated communities, private islands, penthouses, limos.. Shoot, we as Americans even think that our President should have all of those things, at least for a few years.
Jealousy leads to greed, you are well on your way.
Ok, let's take a look at some of the people on major boards. Let's take... hmm... Let;'s start there.
http://newsroom.intel.com/community/intel_newsroom/bios?n=Paul%20S.%20Otellini&f=CorpOfficers
lol. Are you kidding. lol
NO
(&)((^&%^%$%#$%^&%^&**&^%$^&( Sorry, I had to do that because this forum in all its wisdom can't accept just a simple NO. "Comment too short thing you know. Now they will probably delete my post for shouting NO.
Finally figured it out.
They are all "hiding" is why you guys never mention any of these "((&^&%^$? by name. Sure doing a good of hiding in my opinion - you have not managed to name one CEO or the company represented. Great job of helping all of us know who the enemy is
So far you are just a little crusade trying to decide what to do. If you can't identify your enemy by name you are surely destined to shoot your friend and probably your own foot too..
You lost me at "the markets wont finance"!
Who the hell is "markets?"
To use your own words, isn't it just a nice--but bogus--way of identifying "leaderless, rudderless, headless group" of shareholders? Plus, if you understood what this movement stands for even a little bit you'd not use terms that are exactly what this movement has discarded as incredulous.
Please, read your own comment twice for meaning and logical contradictions before posting such "silly crap!"
ok, as much as it pains me, here goes, pay attention: companies exist only because they can attract capital to start a business, then to grow. This is true of any type of company, but even more so of capital intensive businesses, like manufacturing. Companies raise capital in the "markets". that can be equity or stock market, debt markets (bonds or banks), or even private capital (like the 1% you so hate). all of these sources of finance, referred to as financial "markets" are selective as to how they put their capital to work and what risks they will tolerate vis a vie commensurate returns. All this is corporate finance 101. Take away these capital markets and economies will cease to exist. then we would all be just like you: sitting in Zucotti park, smelly and cranky, with nothing to do but piss on each other and bitch and moan. We dont want that, that would not be a good world.
That's ridiculous at best, companies exist only if people buy their product or services. I've had two companies, albeit small, and I existed just fine with never having to "attract capital", I used my own along with my own sweat equity. Now that's real sweat I'm talkin' about home skillet, not the fictitious sweat that has become all the range in the age of greed at light speed. But irregardless of a company's need to raise capital to grow and expand, they don't and can't exist without people, or other companies, buying or using their product or service...oh yeah, and the people to actually make the product, or provide that service. You'd be rather hard pressed to successfully run, let's say, a janitorial service without janitors, now would you, and I don't care how much capital you can sleaze, it ain't going nowhere without someone doing the actual lifting & sweating, and of course somebody cutting the check for using said service. Best go back to real business 101, evidently you've been lead to believe doing actual business only starts on the top floor, when actually that's just where one keeps the new mop heads...and of course the bean counters, never forget the bean counters, for they shall inherit the Earth,
Your commentary is ignorant, at best. And "irregardless" is not a word..
Oh no, I don't think anyone is talking about taking away those capital markets. Nay --- instead of having the government make $900 billion in interest free loans to big banks, how about making $900 billion in interest free loans to individual American citizens who have plans for productive activities such as getting an education or starting a small business? Voila - capital market. In our hands. That's the point.
youre an idiot.
Worker owned (and worker run) Mongragon (google it) is out-competing and out-achieving much of the rest of the competition.
Mind you, I don't buy the premise: that "maximize short-term profit" global "markets" are necessary or acceptable or benign; they are not, they are destroying the world. But learn about Mongragon and see how even within this extremely flawed system (which over the longer term must and will be replaced if civilization or perhaps even life, on Earth, is to survive) but EVEN within this messed up system, it's still possible to work at a democratically controlled workplace.
Mondragon is not ideal; it is last I checked not democratically managed; the workers own, and control, but they hire (and fire) the managers who handle the management aspects or much of them. But even so, the workers not only owned but are the 'bosses' of the managers, and control thereby, the workplaces, which are doing well enough and better than many of their competitors
im familiar with Mondragon. How do you define "worker run"? website says its managers used to be paid 3x lowest paid workers but had to increase to "market rates." in other words they have to pay enough ($millions?) to attract real managers to run the co in a sustainable fashion. on this point, sounds like a regular co to me. Also, web site very thin on financial info and statements, It has survived but doesnt appear to be profitable. tick, tick, tick...
go Joe!
Here Here!
It has a deservedly bad rep. Socialism means taking property, capital and businesses to use collectively for the benefit of the people. In marxist theory, it is the first step after capitalism toward communism, and neither system has worked long term. The socialist democracies such as Sweden, etc., are dealing with the same issues we are - more demand for services such as health care and housing than they can afford and the socialist model they have reduces innovation and investment since there is little incentive to do so, so they have no revenue growth likely.
We should fix the parts of our system that has worked extremely well for more than two hundred years and has given the majority of Americans a standard of living long envied by the rest of the world. We have problems, but they can be corrected with evolutionary, not revolutionary means.
The dictionary definition of socialism:
so·cial·ism [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA noun 1.a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. 2.procedure or practice in accordance with this theory. 3.(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
"...evolutionary, not revolutionary means..." Very insightful. I wish more people had this kind of viewpoint. We don't need to break it down all the way, but this system needs fixin'
"Socialism means taking property, capital and businesses to use collectively for the benefit of the people"
Libertarian Socialism is not about removing private ownership on your toolbox in your basement or your PC, it`s about removing the right for individuals to own means of production other people are using and profitting on their work. It´s about making the economic institutions democratic. It´s about people being able to control their own affairs and work - having a say in things that affect us http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2w4ThqMEpUQ I like decentralization of power and I like democracy, so I want to expand democracy to workplaces and communities. What you get with Libertarian Socialism is just more democracy. If you favor democracy you should favor LS.
"first step after capitalism toward communism, and neither system has worked long term." Youre describing history of Leninism. Leninism is awful, and has nothing to do with Libertarian Socialism
"The socialist democracies such as Sweden, etc., are dealing with the same issues we are" Sweden has just as Norway, universal health care, small economic differences, good pay for workers, guarantied good pension, free/very cheap college and university. Scandinavia is not paradise but it has a lot of what pepole in the US are struggling for.
"socialist model they have reduces innovation and investment" EHHH, WRONG. I live in Norway and we have a good social safety-net, AND are at the same time one of the most productive nations in Europe with very low unemployment.
you need to read F.A. Hayek
"The Road To Serfdom"
OWS is not trying to develop a new political philosophy. Hayek is just one path to a better society, not thee path.
Private tyranny? You would rather have mob rule and an all powerful gov't run by.....who again?
well that was pointless
Eh, now. I dont like people who advocate private tyranny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqlTyAMVDUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpd3grtjkK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ
You need to read Chomsky, Klein, Rocker, Bakunin and watch some good videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJnX96id-xI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDHBvQRyOr0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YftlB3AxBws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu8J_UKKa-c
"Libertarian Socialism is not about removing private ownership on your toolbox in your basement or your PC, it`s about removing the right for individuals to own means of production other people are using and profitting on their work. It´s about making the economic institutions democratic."
Nothing whatsoever prevents you from doing this right now today. You are free to join with anyone you want and form a company with a 'democratic' business structure. This is essentially what partnerships are. The problem is that that isn't what most of you really want. You want a system where someone else takes all the risk and puts up the money and then you share in the rewards like you are a partner when really you haven't invested or risked anything. And I'm here to tell you: You can march and protest all you want, it ain't happening.
Norway is one of the most production nations in Europe. Please! As for your "good social safety net," someone, somewhere in your Country is working their tail off so you can get all your freebies. LS is indeed Leninism. If you want to be wealthy, get out there and work, save, and don't indulge yourself with every little trinket to which you THINK you're entitled.
Norway is currently protected from the rising costs of the welfare state by the oil reserves and revenue you receive from oil. Your GNP and Sweden's has remained almost flat compared to the United States since 1980. My grandfather left Norway and moved his business to the US because of the extremely high tax rates in your country, currently the top rate is over 53%.
Sorry, I would rather take our model and fix the things that are not working well (remove money from politics and increase regulation of financial institutions) than live in a welfare state where more than half of what I earn is taken by the state.
Bravo! Finally, a sane voice!
Norways tax model also puts a greater burden on lower income brackets than the US which is supposed to be the opposite of what progressives want.
Are you seriously lecturing me on norwegian politics? Most of the costs of running the welfare state is not paid for with oil income. Tax rates vary depending on what you earn. Income tax for an avarage income in Norway is about 30% so just spare everyone here the propaganda LIES. If you pay 53% tax you would have to be filthy rich, and than you should pay 53%, actually in my opinion much more.
Your tax rates are far greater than in the US. Norway has VAT of 12-28% on most purchases (DOUBLE what we pay in sales taxes here) and the effective tax rate on an income of $537,000 is 43.9%, compared to an average of about 30% here. Sorry, huge differences in what the state takes from people who buy things or earn wages. That is a huge disincentive to create businesses, create jobs and hire people or take risk and work hard.
But last, you think it is OK for you presume to lecture me and us here on US politics and what system of government we should have, but no one can comment on your very flawed system? Go f**k yourself.
I had posted some facts regarding your 30% but took them down. I want to know where did you get your 30% on average tax? What demographic is that? Is that for people making over 500,000 dollars? Is that Federal tax? Wait, federal tax is the lowest in 60 years relative to GDP, can't be federal tax you are talking about.
Please post sources so I can get educated. I'm very curious to what taxes you are speaking of, corporate tax, employment tax, maybe estate and gift tax? Federal or State and Federal together? Employment tax might, might come close to 20% for the middle class, (Fed and State together) not for the rich though. I'll give you that much, but 30%? No way.
None of us should be paying taxes on our income period. Income tax wasnt enacted until 1974 by Congress. Before that there was no income tax and there isnt to be any income tax in our Constitution. We could only be taxed on our wages during a war to fund it. Our corrupt Congress decided to change our great Constitution on their own. On another note,I cant believe that all of us cant see that our Government and Congress is so corrupt. I mean when members of Congress are voted in for the first time,they arent rich,they dont own multiple million dollar homes,then all the sudden they have millions their million dollar homes,fat bank accounts. That is from being corrupt. Also during the first stimulus package under Bush,AIG received 136 BILLION from it,funny huh,AIG funds and insures Congress members retirement pensions and health care.. I see it as again Congress fending for themselves and all of us has to stand as one and stop this insanity for ourselves,our children and our future generations. Stand,unite and fight....
I think if you took some time to understand how things work and get educated, you would have a different point of view.
I never said FL had a state income tax, I said the comparison was done for someone living and filing in MA and FL. So, what are your facts, would love to see them, but you took them down.
Actually, the effective combined federal, state and local tax in MA is 33%, in Florida it is about 29%. Varies by other states, do not know what New York's is. The comparison comes from an Inc. analysis and comparison of a tax return and effective tax rate in Norway compared to two states in the US where it filed here for an income of $537k. It excludes sales tax/VAT.
Care to show the source? Because I believe Florida has no state income taxes for one, so I'm curious to see your source. It's okay if you don't want to show your source, just in the future, remember Florida has no state income tax and federal tax in Florida is no where near 29%.
[Deleted]
As one of the more annoying trolls here, I have never had a comment taken down by the moderators. Either it is random, or you strayed too far into vitriol . . .
I have studied american politics at the university, I actually specialized on american politics when I studied comparative politics. What have you studied on Norwegian politics? Besides you are not telling the truth about Norway, that pissed me off a little bit.
"effective tax rate on an income of $537,000 is 43.9%"
$500 000 is much more than avarage and should get taxed more.
"That is a huge disincentive to create businesses, create jobs and hire people or take risk and work hard."
in Norway we have a welfare state including a good social safety-net, AND are at the same time one of the most productive nations in Europe with very low unemployment. Nice try.
"But you presume to lecture me and us here on US politics and what system of government we should have?" I present my ideas on how americans can get a better life, because I care about americans.
What gives you the right to make them pay more?
Equal rights only applies if your not wealthy?
liberty only applies if you are part of the unemployed?
What gives the govt. the right to tax anyone? Correct, the same rules apply - i.e. the wealthy and corporate America should pay THEIR FAIR SHARE.
Define fair: in a manner that is honest or impartial.
Define impartial: Treating all rivals or disputants equally; fair and just.
How is what you say impartial/fair?
If one group has to pay more by no definition of the word would it fall under "fair"
I understand Invient that the system is screwed up and I understand being rich gives you opportunities that the rest of us do NOT get, if they aren't paying any taxes then that is not okay and is a problem but the government is to blame for letting them get away with it not the fault of those who pay already and we both know the croock that isn't paying isn't going to pay and the guy who does gets to pay more to make up for it.
Saying that I also believe if we call it "fair" then everyone and I do mean everyone should pay their tax percentage based off any and all money made so the government needs to fix all the loopholes not just stick another set of people with the difference.
"The wealthy use more of the things taxes pay for" You left out all the things they don't get to use i.e. social programs, where everthing you did say all people use.
"One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." ~Plato
as a percentage, the wealthy do not pay their fair share... as a percentage of income growth from Reagan till now, the top 1% have been THE ONLY group to make significant gains. Where as pre-reagan (i.e. neo-liberal economic reforms) the income growth was approximately equal across all percentiles, with the rich growing less (as they should, their already rich!).
The wealthy use more of the things taxes pay for, roads to transport their goods, to have a reliable and educated labor force, defense to ensure stability of markets, and more.
"Socrates" and "freemarket" advocates private tyranny ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqlTyAMVDUk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpd3grtjkK8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ ) and they´re forgetting that theres´ nothing holy about wage labor, and there´s nothing holy about a specific salary. A salary is decided overwelmingly by the employer, so if he/she can decide what one can get, why shouldnt the democratic society decide what one should pay in taxes? The employer uses just as much force in deciding salary amount as when society forces individuals to pay taxes. They´re forgetting that employers, corporations wealthy, private people with power also are coercive factors - they make lots of decitions that affect our life.
Our salary is also a result of lots of other people work as well, it´s no law of nature that one ought to keep it all to oneself. The paycheck isnt just the result of one´s personal effort. We live in a complex, highly advanced technological society built up by generations of people thru hundreds of years. People have been building infrastructure, contributed to science, developed technology, developed efficient ways of manufacturing etc etc. Because of all this effort we now enjoy a more wealthy, advanced and efficient society than ever. All of this, lots of it built and created long before we were even born, we’re now enjoying despite having little or nothing to do with contributing to it ourselves. In other words, our contributions, no matter what we do, are microscopic compared to what we receive from society. We’re enjoying the results of generations of people’s work gradually building a modern society – an enormous FREE RIDE for all of us.
I think we should organize a complex highly advanced wealthy society like this by making it more democratic - by making the workplaces and communities democratic. Pay and taxes should be decided democratically by the particpants, not by private tyranny
"The employer uses just as much force in deciding salary amount as when society forces individuals to pay taxes."
You can choose not to work for that wage, you can't choose to not pay taxes. See how one has a choice in it and the other doesn't. Removal of freedom
"highly advanced technological society built up by generations of people thru hundreds of years. People have been building infrastructure, contributed to science, developed technology, developed efficient ways of manufacturing etc etc."
Why do you think these things happened? Oh that's right for profit.
I have no rigt alone to make them pay more, BUT i have a right to think they should and thru democratic processes together with other people who share my views make them pay more.
Did you read what you just posted?
Lucky for us America is not a democracy, what you are talking about is called theft and if you see it differently then please explain how taking from another something they do not choose to give away is not theft.
Define Theft:
a: the act of stealing; specifically: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it
b: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property
(Replying to the below statement due to no reply button)
How did he aquire such property? Was it by legal means, did the people chose to give him the property that he possesses? Again theft is theft no matter how you try to skew it, the action is still wrong.
Taking the money for the bailout was theft not the bailout itself, exploitation is already illegal. I'm not saying banks arn't an issue only that socialism is not the answer.
You still have not explained how taking from another something they do not choose to give away is not theft.
"How did he aquire such property?"
By being a tyrrant, by exploiting and controlling peoples life without being democratically elected, just like private tyrannies.
"Was it by legal means, did the people chose to give him the property that he possesses?"
No ,just like the a vast majority didnt give the superwealthy bailouts and huge profits. Besides, you dont believe in democracy, so why is state tyranny awful, but not private tyranny..
"exploitation is already illegal."
No its not. Its the core of capitalism ("capital"=profits/surplus in other words exploitation - x profiting on y)
No, bailouts, exploitation, and speculation on the stock marked, thats THEFT.
"please explain how taking from another something they do not choose to give away is not theft." Is it theft if the North-Korean people rose up and took away all of kim-jong il´s property and power (which he obiously dont want to give up voluntairy) or should he be able to keep it all?
That's nothing but the rule of the mob. People who are relative failures envy those more successful than themselves and want to punish them. It's pathetic really.
Heh, maybe a bit envious, but not nearly as GREEDY.
They're ALL deadly sins (or if you're not christian, bad morals, if you're buddhist Hungry Ghosts), and trying to pass the buck and say that your brand of sin is somehow "better" so that you can sleep at night is merely rationalization.
People deserve to be treated fairly, and having their tax burden skyrocket to unheard-of proportions because corporations were able to maniuplate policy to get it done is till wrong, and it IS theft without the consent of the governed (who came out in the majority and said they didn't want the bailout).
How about if the US stops defending Norway and the rest of the slacker, whiny Europeans? What would the tax rates be under that scenario?
Oh, I get it: now that youre all out of arguments, you sink to the level of ignorant childish unfounded allegations.
Please answer the question. As you do so, consider the recent "NATO" exercise in Libya. I believe we in the US dropped a billion dollars into that, as our "partners" - who own not a single functioning aircraft carrier between them - ran out of the two or three missiles they had in the first few days.
What a joke.
My point is to get you to think about things. I will continue to try to bring you to the path of wisdom despite the pain it causes me.
whats your point with all this?
"effective tax rate on an income of $537,000 is 43.9%"
$500 000 is much more than avarage and should get taxed more.
Why should success be penalized with a higher tax rate and relative failure rewarded with a lower one.?
Thanks for your great replies and for caring.
I am telling the truth on Norway, your government's own tax site provides data on the VAT and income and wealth taxes. Your VAT or what we call sales tax is almost DOUBLE ours here and the effective tax rate on someone earning $537k is almost 14% higher in Norway.
You are not presenting ideas or any concrete proposal to improve our system of government, you are regurgitating the crackpot ideas of Chomsky who himself admits he hates the system and wants change, but has no idea how to go about doing so. That is the difference between an ideology and real life - sounds wonderful debating over coffee or glasses of wine, not realistic or practical in the real world.
And because you studied politics, you are an expert? Please, I would love to know all about your practical, real life experience. You work in the government currently? You have experience writing and administering tax code?
http://www.norway.org.uk/Embassy/faq/tax/
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20110201/comparing-tax-rates-in-the-us-and-norway.html
"rate on someone earning $537k is almost 14% higher in Norway." Right, but 500k is not avarage. 500k should be taxed much much more than just 40%.
"himself admits he hates the system and wants change, but has no idea how to go about doing so." Youre wrong. Read "Chomsky on Anarchism"
freemarkets, struggleforfreedom, others:
You're both doing an excellent job. This discussion belongs on the front page of newspapers and be the lead story on every news broadcast. You are discussing the fundemental chalenges of our time. You both do credit to the positions and ideas you agree with and advocate for them in a mostly patient and thoughtful manner. I agree with both of you on a variety of your positions. Our greek way of thinking would have us believe one set of ideas necessarily negates the validity of another seemingly opposed set of ideas. This changes the more we work out the details and the closer we get to reality. We cannot replace capitalism. It must continue to be the driving force behind our economics. China is a very good modern example, while the industrial revolution in our own country gives us an excellent historical example of the ability of this economic system to raise the standard of living for the masses. But what is the glaring ommission in this observation? It's the cost. Pollution. The abuse of workers. The concentration of money, which is synonymous with power in a capitalist society, into the hands of the 1%. I need not point out that Conservatism is based largely on the belief that the greatest threat to liberty is this concentration of power. Not to recognize this is one of the most baffling blind spots in modern conservatism. I digress. Oh yes: The IR. The people of this country spent the last century, at least until the nineteen eighties, doing their best to protect themselves from the severe cost they must pay in order to benefit from what capitalism has to offer. They formed unions. They stopped the horrors of child labor. They regulated a system which has no object at it's core but to generate profit. And profit is a good thing for heavens sakes. But a well disposed mind and heart must also have the common sense and decency to recognize that there are some things that are priceless and no amount of profit makes a wrong thing into a right one. No amount of profit makes a bad thing good. This is the challenge of our time. We must allow capitalism to do it's good work but we cannot allow it to subvert the right. We must keep the right.(The inscription on my coat of arms =) And to do that we must always have our eyes on capitalism as we would one of our children. It is essentially good but if it is allowed to operate completely free of restraint, moral code, and law, it will destroy just as it creates. Hence the financial crisis we are experiencing. So answer the questions: What are the problems our capitalist way of life creating for us? How can we remedy those problems? A few injections of socialism never killed a capitalist society. They may have upset market purists but the societies which have done so are among the most civilized industrial nations in the world. They are doing fantastic and will continue to do so as long as they hold to the core principles of why capitalism works and under what conditions it fails to produce on it's inherent promises. I could say a great deal more on this but I really would rather see what the response to it is before I continue. If the sense of it is perceived I'll feel heartened. If the discussion is amplified by it fantastic. But if we devolve from what we can do to make things better into petty arguments over details then what is the point? I hear you guys. I love what you're saying. But we must recognize sense or we are lost. Not one of us has it all right. We NEED eachother. We are Americans and global citizens. We HAVE to work together. God Bless.
Thanks for the kind words, Prorevoh. "I wanted rhetoric, but could only howl the rotten truth." (HS Thompson)
Freemarket is doing an excellent job alright. an excellent job in promoting private tyranny
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqlTyAMVDUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpd3grtjkK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ
If you like the idea of democracy you should REJECT capitalist ideologi totally:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/replace-capitalism-with-democracy/
You just articulated the difference in our philosophies. I think 40% is excessive, not too little and is a disincentive to starting a business, hiring people and creating jobs. Why work hard if it is all going to be seized by the government? I'll just kick back and sit on my ass like everyone else instead and collect the same benefits.
You want a welfare state that takes from the productive and gives to the unproductive without fairness, balance or reason. Your system penalizes the small business owner or anyone who works hard.
Sorry, you can champion socialism, communism or the newly repacked and better sounding "Libertarian Socialism' all you like, but I will make a bet with you that that the majority of Americans will never buy into it. If this is what OWS is trying to push, it is doomed here in the US.
Go 4%!!
I'm a serial entrepreneur. Have created many jobs and opportunities for others, none of whom feel "exploited". I too have thought about "going Galt" as you have described above. Screw em. Let them eat their rhetoric for dinner.
@ winesoaked - there seems to be a system glitch and I can't reply to your comment below, so will do so here. I don't earn close to that, but my family income is close to $300k, which puts us in the top 4% income percentile in the the US. But we have a shot at it, it may or may not happen. although I still believe there are huge opportunities here. I grew up in a family with income well below the middle of the 99% and worked hard, played fairly and did well.
You mistake my comments to say that I don't think taxes are fair. I'm not a Tea Partier and I actually DO believe in taxes and I do believe I and everyone should pay their fair share. I disagree with how unfairly wealth is currently distributed and I disagree with corporate "personhood" and lack of oversight and think there should be more regulation of them.
But I also don't agree with the socialist approach or a blame the rich or well off attitude either. My argument above is that I don't want Norway's tax structure, nor do want an anarchist, socialist or communist government. I think penalizing hard work, and people who actually create business and products and services is a disincentive - seriously, why would anyone do it?
I also am not opposed to paying more taxes, if it helps keep schools funded, roads paved, parks open and the truly poor fed and housed, I am all for it. I just don't agree with the extreme position proposes by "struggleforfreedom80" and think we need a bit of balance.
I take it, based on your line of rhetoric, that you (imthe4percent) earn over $500k. That's great, good on you. You still seem to stick by the philosophy that you're a job creator.
But then you ruin it by complaining that if taxes are higher, you'll just sit back and enjoy the safety net. Are you for real? Why don't you just go find yourself a job that only nets $200k or even $100k and be more firmly with the middle class? Why insist that the so-called disincentive of higher income tax is so much that you'll just quit doing whatever it is that you do that happens to make a lot of money?
Finally, I've said this in several places, but it bears repeating: You talk about yourself as if you're an island, and the government is the ocean waves trying to erode your net worth away to the void. Please wake up to the realization that our society was built by the people you look down on, that infrastructure was put in place generations ago by people who would never know you and that you almost certainly benefit from.
The fact that the time has come for those in the 1% to pay their share for the society that has rewarded them handsomely by being able to play the game more skillfully (and all too often, less ethically) scares them, and it seems to scare you too. I'm not unsympathetic, but I'm also unapologetic. This is a clam bake of their own making.
"Why work hard if it is all going to be seized by the government?" Because wanting to work is in our nature. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WveI_vgmPz8
It has to be a sad life just sitting at home watching pathetic low budget sitcoms.
btw I dont like government much either. Anarcho-syndicalism would be a better way of organizing society
We Americans care about Norwegians too.
thanks :)
BTW, know anyone experienced with the Sainte-Lague parliament seat distribution system that Norway uses, ask them if the Wikipedia explanation is up and up. I can really use a mathematician who can look at that, and tell me why I don't understand.
sorry, cant help u on that one
Nah. They smell like fish
thats true. We actually bathe in Cod liver oil once every week.
That explains the excellent skin complexion, and all the cats roaming the streets
Hey Imthe4percent, we can really use your ideas. Would you consider voting on the US Parliament's direct democracy eballot? If you have time, there's 120 items on the eballot, spaces for three write-in items, and only two cast eballots to date (the marked eballots are posted in the parliament's forum in case you wish to see them). Just follow the directions, and mark your choices. Yours will be posted with the others. Only items ranked with 50% plus one vote will be passed, and if you write in any new ideas, I'll consider ranking your ideas myself and they'll be permanently placed on the agenda for next year's consideration.
Please consider registering your ideas on our DD eballot, and there are other eballots you can participate with our team too. We're the American people, and your ideas are needed too:
http://usparliament.org/votehere.php
Note: Because so few people are actually participating, the good news is that your choices/ranked ideas will have a particularly strong effect.
"If you pay 53% tax you would have to be filthy rich, and than you should pay 53%, actually in my opinion much more."
You feel this way because you are jealous and envious of those more successful than yourself and have a desire to punish them for what is actually your failure. You will never truly succeed until you move past that. That said as any tax table for Norway will show you their tax system imposes a greater burden on multiple tax brackets including low income brackets than the US system does.
"Libertarian Socialism is . . .about removing the right for individuals to own means of production other people are using and profitting on their work."
So how do you, yourselves, derive a right to remove another person's rights? Currently we have a social contract, encoded in the Constitution. That contract grants the government a few very limited rights, and in doing so restricts some of our own inalienable rights. So we give up our right to murder and pillage in return for a rule of law. What you are proposing is much more extreme: You want to grant the government (the people, the mob, whatever) the right to appropriate private property. Since property rights form the basis of most of our current laws, you are essentially destroying the individual rights of every person who lives in your gulag state. I would fight you to the death to stop this.
Capitalism is . . .about removing the right for individuals to own means of production other people are using and profitting on their work."
Funny how that works right?
This has gotten so long I can't tell what you are replying to . . .
The idea that capitalists "profit" on the work of others is silly Marxism. The idea that an employee who shows up for a ready-made job and a paycheck is being "exploited" by the persons who moved heaven and earth to create that job is ludicrous. The employee IS getting a share of the capitalist's productivity. It is a win-win situation.
Too right.
However, when the pendulum swings too far and the people at the top of capitalism legislate their paychecks into existence, THAT is no longer capitalism.
But yes, Capitalism actually works pretty well as a general idea, subject to constarints.
"So how do you, yourselves, derive a right to remove another person's rights?" The thirteenth amendment, ratified in 1865, removed one person's right to own other people. And many did fight to the death to stop this. The role of government lies in the conflict of the interests of one person or group with the interests of another person or group. The determining of whose interest is of more importance is, in this country, supposed to be held by democratic consensus, which, though not necessarily perfect, is a strong defense against aristocratic consensus, religious consensus, ethnic consensus, or any other manner of minority rule.
There never was a right to own other people. Slaves were defined as non-persons, as property. Once slaves were recognized as human, they had the same inalienable rights as others, and hence could not be "owned".
The role of government is to secure the inalienable rights of the people. It has no role in inventing new rights, nor does it have the authority to vote itself new responsibilities. The only way to do that is to ammend the contract, the COnstitution, to do so.
'once slaves were recocogized as human....' how did that happen???
i would say through a slow 'perculating' sence of common sence, aka consciousness. no doubt, alot of ('people, mob, whatever'). struggle.
the role of goverment is for the 'people, mob, whatever' to decide.
The government has no role in inventing new rights nor does it vote itself new responsibilities? If you ever took a Constitutional law class you would fail big time. The Constitution is so flexible that it basically means nothing. In this country, people have owned other people, people were authorized to torture others, women couldn't vote, and we segregated people by color, all within the boundaries of the Constitution at one point and now they are outside the boundaries and there is nothing saying it could go back. The Constitution is a "living document", it simply reflects the will of people, whether by the masses or through the greed/power of individual lobbying groups. Also, amending it is not the only way to change it, we can scrap the whole damn thing and start a new one if we want, we are free people, why not? Also, people own corporations and they are considered people, is that slavery?
You missed my point. While the government DOES vote itself new responsibilities, it has no actual authority to do so. We must rein this in. The call on this site for "direct democracy" is a terrifying leap in the other direction. The "People' - aka "mob" - could vote for any trend of the moment. It would be a nightmare state of fear and violence.
"the 'people' - "mob" - could vote for any "trend" of the moment. it would a nightmare state of fear and violence'. no arguement, i think some parts of the 1% OF 1776 thought as such, surely there was a big arguement. my question to you, what was the 99% arguement?
Is history a 1% reform movement?
I'm sorry, i'm completely missing the logic here. So until the authorities defined for us "peasants" that slaves are also human beings, it was right and moral to treat and view them as non-humans? LOL
Huh? Is there any thread to this? You are missing the logic because you are jumping all over the place. You are also being argumentative in a typically adolescent way. So I'm done with you.
I think Tempest won this debate... the tell tale sign of loosing a debate, ad hominem attacks.
This is why amending the constitution is a democratic process. One thing the authors understood correctly is that no decisions by a government can bind posterity. The point of democracy is that you participate in rule. You may be outvoted, and it may seem like tyranny of the majority, but you had a say in the outcome. You also left out the other role of government, that of the arbiter between parties who's interests are at odds.
The nice thing about amending the Constitution is that it requires us to resurrect the vestiges of Federalism that have made us so strong and stable. It is the 50 States that must ratify, not a majority mob. This makes it VERY difficult to do unless there is a very clear and compelling reason to do so.
"So how do you, yourselves, derive a right to remove another person's rights?"
Democratic process. But remember, I want to give individuals MORE rights -like the right to work in a democratically run workplace, being able to participate in the affairs that affect you etc.
"Currently we have a social contract, encoded in the Constitution" Constitutions are not holy cows. Many constitutions are written by men that lived a long time a go. It should be the people that are ALIVE that should be able to decide policy in todays society, not dead people.
"Since property rights form the basis of most of our current laws, you are essentially destroying the individual rights of every person who lives in your gulag state."
study Libertarian Socialism so youll at least know what it is youre criticizing.
"I would fight you to the death to stop this" So, in other words, you hate democracy..?
You CANNOT GIVE a person RIGHTS! They already have inalienable rights. To give someone a "right" to a job, or to healthcare, is to assume you have the right to loot another persons time, wealth and property - to enslave them - in order to "give" that new right to the person you choose. This is not complicated.
The guys who wrote the Constitution (and the philosophers like Locke who laid the groundwork preceding them) were not stupid. You trivialize their wisdom and thought . . .
No. I hate you and all the despots and useful idiots throughout history like you. Your path leads to misery, starvation, and enslavement. Fool.
We are born with rights, first and foremost as human beings. It is only greedy humans attempt to take away rights in order to have control over other humans.
Seems to me, if you have to talk about giving rights, and justify and define them with laws and official documents, you are taking rights away. As soon as you start identifying those rights with specifications, rights are infringed upon. This, to me, is a flaw of human nature.
Rights just are and people should just live, accepting that freedom is exactly that, freedom. BUT -- I am not so naive as to believe human beings are ready for such a thing.
So, the nature of humanity is such that we must limit rights by virtue of the fact that we must define rights in order for society's members to give each other a modicum of freedom.
Thus - corruption is predisposed - because the limitations allow for it.
I think you just re-stated the basis of the Constitution
In the end, perhaps it is not the documents that are flawed, but the human nature that requires them.
Yes! Right on man. These people need to read some F.A. Hayek or von Mises
"You CANNOT GIVE a person RIGHTS" What you speak of takes away right, if this is the message OWS is trying to send it will fail.
I totally disagree with that. In Canada there is free universal healthcare, doctors do not work for free, they are paid very well; waiting times are a bit of an issue, but that has more to do with a lack of medical schools and fact that the College of Physicians and Surgeons likes to protect its monopoly by making it nearly impossible for foreign doctors to get licensed.
Also Capitalism has serious problems, for one it is extremely wasteful, and we can no longer afford to keep wasting the resources on this planet. Maybe pure socialism is not the answer, but some very severe government regulation (including taxation) is required to keep things a little more fair, and less destructive.
Unrestrained greed, in spite of what economists tell people, will not lead to more wealth for everyone, and it will eventually be our demises as a species if we do not do something about it. Why do we put 1,000,000,000,000 soft drink cups into land fills a year? we could start with a 1$ per cap tax.
Canada's wait times for anything but emergency care is horrendous, so is the UK's. There is no such thing as free, there is a cost to someone always.
Here in the US, I needed orthopedic surgery for a torn meniscus. I made my first appointment, had an MRI that day and scheduled the surgery at the best facility in New York two weeks later. In Canada, you would wait months for this surgery and in the UK even longer.
Sorry, I don't want your "free" system either.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2009/07/28/statistics-show-canada-healthcare-is-inferior-to-american-system
You have to wait a few hours for the vast majority of issues... it really isn't a big deal; and as I said, wait times are not a result of "free" its an issue with a lack of medical doctors, and that is 100% the fault of the Medical Profession who makes it next to impossible to get licensed here because they don't want the competition.
I think most Canadian's don't mind waiting a few hours for treatment, the alternative is no-treatment at all for those who can't afford it; and for those with lots of money, well they can go to the USA and pay for it if they so choose. Personally, I prefer not to waste money on health insurance; one less bill to deal with.
I don't want "free" healthcare, and I don't want to pay for yours. So how, in your utopian vision, do you get me to go along with this? What kind of FORCE are you willing to apply to get your way?
I have never heard of capitalism being called wasteful. It is widely considered to be the optimal "algorithm" for the allocation of resources. It is a planetary neural network of instantaneous decision making that cannot be improved upon by the "smarter" decisions of an elite few!
We are not wasting resources: We are converting them into more useful forms. The state of this planet - both in terms of the ecology and of the human condition - is that of continuous improvement: The environment is getting cleaner, people live longer, and under better conditions. All the whining to the contrary, we are doing better and better all the time.
"and I don't want to pay for yours" Why not?
"So how, in your utopian vision, do you get me to go along with this? What kind of FORCE are you willing to apply to get your way?" My suggestion would be DEMOCRACY, you know, the type of organization in which people can control their own life and work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu8J_UKKa-c
Why do I need a reason? I don't want to pay for your health care. If I decide I do, I will do it through voluntary charity, not compulsion.
Democracy does not get me to write a check to your cause. It merely allows you to vote that I should do so. How will you ENFORCE this? You are evading the ugly underbelly of all your "good intentions": You must ENSLAVE people to produce the wealth you need to fund your utopia.
"struggle - you are one confused individual. My employer does not "decide what you can get". My salary is NEGOTIATED"
You have to take into concidertaion the power each party has in a coflict/negotiation/relation. You have innfluence over the final "agreement" based on your power. The state is more powerful than you as an individual when you agreed to live and establish property in the nationstate so you got to decide less over the final agreement than the state. In the same way powerful finacial elites and CEOs have more power than the potential employee when seeking work.
"I apply as much pressure on the employer (by being able to go elsewhere)as my employer applies to me."
Thats a poor argument. Its like saying "You have just as much pressure on the state (by being able to move to another country)as the state applies to you
"As to the rest of your screed, I would not know where to begin to discombobulate your thinking" I guess thts becaouse you dont have any good argeuments
Theres´ nothing holy about wage labor, and there´s nothing holy about your specific salary. Your salary is decided overwelmingly by your employer, so if he/she can decide what you can get, why shouldnt the democratic society decide what you should pay in taxes? Your employer uses just as much force in deciding your salary amount as when society forces you to pay taxes. Youre forgetting that employers, corporations wealthy, private people with power also are coercive factors - they make lots of decitions that affect your life.
Your salary is also a result of lots of other people work as well, it´s no law of nature that you ought to keep it all to yourself. your paycheck isnt just the result of your personal effort. We live in a complex, highly advanced technological society built up by generations of people thru hundreds of years. People have been building infrastructure, contributed to science, developed technology, developed efficient ways of manufacturing etc etc. Because of all this effort we now enjoy a more wealthy, advanced and efficient society than ever. All of this, lots of it built and created long before we were even born, we’re now enjoying despite having little or nothing to do with contributing to it ourselves. In other words, our contributions, no matter what we do, are microscopic compared to what we receive from society. We’re enjoying the results of generations of people’s work gradually building a modern society – an enormous FREE RIDE for all of us.
I think we should organize a complex highly advanced wealthy society like this by making it more democratic - by making the workplaces and communities democratic. Pay and taxes should be decided democratically by the particpants, not by private tyranny
He likes the idea of legal theft. I'm sure he is just trying to discredit the real OWS movement and has no idea what a honest living is.
define making an honest living: earn money by working hard at a job
struggle - we were talking about employers, not the State. With an employer, I have an amount of power equal to the skills I have that are needed by the employer. How could it be otherwise? If I have no useful skills, why should I be able to command a higher salary?
struggle - you are one confused individual. My employer does not "decide what you can get". My salary is NEGOTIATED. I apply as much pressure on the employer (by being able to go elsewhere) as my employer applies to me. In any case, my income is incentive based - I get back a percent of what I contribute to the corporations wealth.
As to the rest of your screed, I would not know where to begin to discombobulate your thinking . . . .
I'm not forcing you to go along with anything, I live in Canada and don't have to worry about wasting money on health insurance. Taxes are not that bad in spite of free healthcare, in Alberta we have a flat 10% provincial income tax, and zero sales tax. Federally tax isn't unreasonable either, although it is a graduated system, and we have a 5% sales tax; which ironically was brought in by a conservative Prime Minister.
Your country spent how many Trillion on war in the last 10 years? plus 12 Trillion on Bank Bailouts? plus Billions and Billions each year into the black hole known as the failing war on (some) drugs? Believe me, your country can afford health insurance without you having to pay anything extra, its a question of priorities; bomb children, arrest pot smokers, or give your people health care.
It is not the optimal algorithm, it is the lazy algorithm. Yes they are being converted into more useful forms; however, those products simply do not last like they used to, and wind up in garbage dumps. They come with an outrageous amount of excess packaging which goes straight into the garbage. Additionally, most of what is bought is not out of need its out of consumeristic needs; how much useless junk does the average person have lying around? That's wasteful, but people are constantly told they need more stuff.
If that was not enough, the premise of the entire system is that production which equals consumption must continue to raise exponentially, that is 100% unsustainable in the long term on a planet with finite resources.
The Environment in North America is getting better, check out some third world nations ravaged by American (or even Canadian) companies; and better only means we still can't drink out of the great lakes even tho the fish we eat have to swim in the stuff. Wonder why cancer rates are so high?
Answer the central question: If you are advocating "free" and "universal" health care, and a bunch of us don't want it, then HOW ARE YOU PLANNING TO FORCE US to pay for it? I know you are Canadian, but I'm just asking you to defend what you are advocating.
As for how much we spend on war . . . when your country stops hiding under our umbrella - more or less for free - then we can talk about it. While your special forces have been commendable in their support, in all other areas you along with Britain have simply abrogated your responsibility as a rich, highly industrialized western power to defend the weak.
National Health Insurance means combining the efficiency of the Postal Service with the compassion of the I.R.S. and the cost accounting of the Pentagon.
I guess if you put it that way, I can't force you to pay for anything; but I personally think you should end the war on drugs and put the Billions of dollars into healthcare or education instead. Plus every country in the world including mine has to pay astronomical enforcement costs because your government has its panties in a bunch over harmless plants...
Anyway, I'm just saying; its a question of priorities. Your country wastes truly astronomical amounts of money on wars, pot heads, and bank bailouts, and could quite easily have universal health care if it made different choices.
Canada has a long history of peace keeping missions; and it doesn't need to hide under your umbrella. At least for myself, I'm not particularly worried about being invaded by Afghanistan, Iraq, or even Iran for that matter. No offence, but occupy wall street has done more to bring peace with the Arab world than 10 years of war; look at people in Egypt standing in solidarity carrying signs that say "Oakland" "OWS" etc.
Now answer my question please, taken as a whole; do you think capitalism and the resultant consumer mentality results in a good allocation of resources? or does it result in a lot of unnecessary waste? If you disagree I suggest catching an episode of hoarders... or heading to McDonald's to observe home much unnecessary garbage is generated in one day.
I can't reply to "Vooter"'s comment (or rant, whatever) directly. However, the fact that he can credibly swallow the notion that 8 million people have been killed by US operations shows that he is not to be taken seriously. These loons always go too far in their hyperbole.
While Vooter likely does not have the intellectual maturity to grasp it, most of the rest of us are aware that the US has been the strongest force for peace in history. In addition to our suppression and stabilization of various rogue actors in this dangerous world, we are also the first people that are called upon when a tsunami strikes, or when Europe needs their arses rescued once again from Hitler, or Stalin, or Khadaffi . . .
Vooter should try to imagine what would happen if we actually WANTED to steal another country's oil, or wipe out their population, and then consider that none of those scenarios have ever occured . .
LOL...the U.S. military hasn't "defended" the American people from a legitimate threat for at least 65 years. The U.S military and the CIA, however, HAVE undertaken countless covert and overt operations that have resulted in the deaths of some 8,000,000 people around the world since 1945. You're just a lazy idiot--the U.S. government is EASILY one of the most piggish and thuggish actors on the world stage. Totally pathetic...
OOhhh...you mean Locke, the neo-liberal capitalist Locke. That one. The one who persuaded us that goods in the commons should be divided up and be conquered and taken as one's property. The one who taught us that it's good to be greedy and take things in the commons as our own. Thanks but no thanks.
I wouldn't get this mad at Locke (not that I would take the libertarian interpretation of Locke as valid, either). The Second Treatise states explicitly that human beings have the natural right to appropriate the fruits of nature for their own use if and only if in doing so their use does not result in the useless destruction of those fruits. In shorter terms, it means you can't just take food off the tree and let it go to waste even if someone else is hungry just because you feel like it. Nozick (whom I'm taking as a better interpreter of the libertarian understanding of rights than someone like Hayek, who was a bit soft-hearted and even thought health care should be freely available since poor health encroached on someone's ability to labor for him or herself) says something else. He says you have the moral right do exactly that, since nothing in the world can supersede your rights as an individual to do what you feel like (I'm sure he wasn't so sociopathic as to like people who would do that, but the fact remains that he did think that the logical outcome of the idea of the absolute autonomy of the individual was the conclusion that they should be allowed to). Although even Nozick seemed to have some idea that the "freedom" to pollute should be curbed. So where am I going? Oh, yeah, the forefathers of libertarianism were either not libertarians, or not sociopathic. Charity wasn't weakness as far as they were concerned, and for Locke, it was a very good thing. Still not sure why their contemporary followers think otherwise...
neo-liberal capitalist? Stop swilling your own Kool Aid.
"You CANNOT GIVE a person RIGHTS"
Oh..so you can´t give people the right to own property then..?
"They already have inalienable rights" What do you mean?
"The guys who wrote the Constitution (and the philosophers like Locke who laid the groundwork preceding them) were not stupid." I never said they were stupid. Im saying dead people shouldnt decide policies for living people.
"No" Oh, you like democracy..? So you like the idea of democratic workplaces and communities then..?
No we like the idea of a republic. You know the one that the founding fathers stated clearly they didn't want becoming a democracy because democracy has never worked nor will it ever work.
What difference is it to me if a decision is forced upon me by a dictator or by half of my neighbors? Either way my right to free, peaceful action has been nullified. America's abundance was not created by public sacrifices to the common good, but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. Democracy is not a system of liberty, but a form of tyranny: the tyranny of the majority
Ahh, the true colors of the libertarian right: avoiding living people to be able to participate in the affairs that affect them, and instead letting dead slave owners decide todays policies.
"What difference is it to me if a decision is forced upon me by a dictator or by half of my neighbors? "
What difference is it to me if a decision is forced upon me by a dictator or by a piece of paper written by dead slave owners?
You live in a society with OTHER people, accept that individuals should have the rigt to decide things that affect them with one vote each.
The republic is not a system of liberty, but a form of tyranny: the tyranny of the MINORITY (courts and founders)
well said!
Define Republic:
A state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president.
Like I said before you appear to have some misunderstanding about economic and govermental systems.
States should decide for themselves on what their social policies will be and if you don't like them you can move to a state that you do agree with.
I'm putting my sword down to rest and to watch your swordplay . . .
Excellent.
This kind of statement - "the founding fathers didn't want democracy" - gets batted around all the time, and it's either incorrect or deliberately misleading.
It's misleading if you take the letter of their words - "democracy" in most classical political theory was always defined negatively as "mob rule," but the opposite was not always "republic," but "polity," meaning "rule of all the people by all the people." They had no problem using this phrase as an alternative to "republic," and I can't count how many times they used the phrase "rule of the people." To focus on the letter of the word without understanding the valence it had at the time (which is not similar to ours, which is closer to their "republic") is more often than not an attempt at obfuscation.
Or it's incorrect - Jefferson, for example, wrote to Washington after he sent soldiers to suppress the Whiskey Rebellion saying that the "democratic impulse" displayed there should not be repressed (I'm assuming all our current hysteria for the Constitution isn't going to lead us to write off Jefferson just because he wasn't at the convention). There are many other examples of the positive use of the term "democracy" in their writings (although I will admit that more often they used it after the ratification of the Constitution - nevertheless, they approved the sentiment).
Although I'm going to agree with struggleforfreedom80 - who cares, in the end, what they thought? I'll take it under advisement, but I don't feel like I should be beholden to any other human being for my sense of political self-worth. Why shouldn't we in the present be allowed to reconsider the rules by which we live our lives? That's what the "founding fathers" did!
So like strugglefor(removal of)freedom80 you want your views forced on others but are against anothers view being forced on you. I would like to hear your definition of freedom, I believe we should be allowed to do whatever we choose as long as it doesn't effect or harm another to be free of all unnecessary control, the American Constitution and Bill of rights were put in place to protect citizens from one another and from others acts of agression not control them or take what a person does not choose to give away. You and him both speak of freedom but your beliefs are a contradiction of the word.
Define freedom: The absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action.
Define hypocrite: A person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings.
One more thing, what democracy in history has ever worked?
Capitalism has created the highest standard of living ever known on earth. The evidence is incontrovertible. The contrast between West and East Berlin is the latest demonstration, like a laboratory experiment for all to see. Yet those who are loudest in proclaiming their desire to eliminate poverty are loudest in denouncing capitalism.
Zuh? First of all, way to not answer my correction, which was the main substance of my post.
Second of all, most people would grant that definition of freedom, and I would say two things in reply. One, that level of freedom is impossible; we all have to curtail our behavior because we live with other people. I would personally have liked to punch my old boss in the face, but didn't do it because I recognize the moral need to restrain myself in the name of civility. Two, libertarian theories of coercion usually fail to recognize the very real possibility we have of infringing on each other's rights (I'm assuming by your posts that you identify with some form of libertarianism; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Sure, in an optimal situation, we should be free to exercise our agency without restraint unless it infringes on the capacity others to exercise theirs, but if the financial crisis (and the - concomitant - environmental crisis) have proved anything, it's that our actions have a far greater effect on our neighbors' than classical libertarianism realizes. If I advocate far more stringent environmental laws it's because industrial pollution always affects people other than the beneficiaries of the rewards reaped by the act of pollution - and polluters did this without asking their victims if they'd agree to the "free contract" to breath smog for no money in return. If I advocate far more stringent financial regulations, it's because egregious actions taken by bankers can have, in the aggregate, an enormously destructive effect on the economy.
And let's face it - corporate execs know this. It is TOTALLY disingenuous to say that an enormous corporation with an internalized productive apparatus allowing enormous control over the supply of materials of production and the capital to operate at a loss for a long enough period of time to outlast any smaller competitor is somehow equal with anyone applying for a job there. The actual facts on the ground belie any libertarian myths about "freedom of contract," so if you want to say that it's "forcing" the "heroic" "job creators" to establish a minimum wage (which I think is WAY too low) to follow laws aimed at making the situation slightly more equal, then fine - I'm all for forcing them. The myth of the "free market" (which I'm assuming you take to be at the root of the "freedom" you advocate) is a ruse and it's based on no actual fact. All it does is gloss over the fact that formal freedom (for the few) has almost completely annihilated substantive freedom (for the vast majority).
As for "hypocrite," I didn't say the word. If you're calling me a hypocrite, my only reply is kiss my ass. I haven't contradicted any of my claims, and I don't think Struggle has either. A mixture of freedom and responsibility to others is all I've advocated, not the insane freedom of sociopathology.
And as for democracy not working, I'll just ask about your "capitalism" - you call this a success? Let's see. On the side of efficiency, it's taken the impoverishment of billions to provide cheap goods for westerners for a relatively brief period of time. On the side of freedom, the corporate overlords put the lie to this constantly as they beg for subsidies at the same time as they fight tooth and nail to remove the relatively few laws in place to keep them from raping everyone else. You can't disprove the possibility of democracy by citing the fraudulent success of capitalism.
@ struggleforfreedom80: I admire what you are trying to do, but it's like Dawkins refusing to debate creationists: after a certain point responding at all, even to dismantle their position, is counterproductive. Astrophysicists and astronomers at CalTech or Cambridge don't feel compelled to debunk the local astrologer. Nevertheless, here goes nothing:
@The1capitalist: "blah blah blah . . . Hayek . . . blah . . . von Mises" Those two names explain so much. Mises should have restricted his attention to mathematics and left economic pseudo-science alone. As for Hayek, the central arguments of the Road to Serfdom are embarrassingly easy to demolish.
@SocratesPhilosophy: "You CANNOT GIVE a person RIGHTS. . ." Really? Seriously? Perhaps you might reason this one out in your own head (y'know, like Socrates would) and see the inherent contradiction. Rights, value, meaning, etc are all created organically by individuals and communities (and this is by no means exclusive to human communities) in an evolutionary process. A "right" is a social invention - a statement of minimal individual viability - an agreed upon (hopefully) basis of social cohesion - and absolutely nothing more!
The culprit here is the idealism and essentialism of Socrates' famous pupil Plato. As interesting as Plato's theories were, they do nothing to enrich our understanding of the real world, as Plato's most devoted pupil and critic, Aristotle pointed out. All modern moral and ethical debates suffer from our platonic prejudices (as Nietzsche tirelessly demonstrated).
Society is an evolving collection of meanings and relationships that are constantly being renegotiated. We might find it expedient to hold some fixed while we allow a certain flux in others. The key word is expedient. Creating a better society is not a matter of orienting ourselves properly in relation to some ideal form of the individual (with innate rights) or of society (with strictly and inherently defined institutions). It cannot be because such ideals are fantasies. They artificially constrain and distort our view of the world and thus our debate about it.
Finally, countries like Norway, Sweden, and Denmark have some of the best outcomes in the world in a variety of objective and empirical measures of social and individual well-being. No amount of fallacious arguments (ad hominem, straw-mare, argument from final premises, etc, etc) will change those facts. Using an obviously superficial understanding of socialism as a bogeyman won't change them either. I'd close with something snarky like "nice try" - except it wasn't.
"You CANNOT GIVE a person RIGHTS. . ." was a quote from Struggle
. . .who was in turn quoting FreeMarkets. My apologies.
All good Sir, have a good evening. :)
I honestly don't think Lockean libertarians think these things through. Basically Locke came up with the notion of homesteading and never stopped to think about what happens when people move elsewhere and someone else moves in the new place.
Right. That's all he came up with. What a dunce he was.
You know what inalienable rights are Sherlock. If not, go ask one of your progressive professors why they skipped that lecture.
No one should decide "policies" for people period. The People have the right to be left alone from do-gooders and buttinskies who want to "govern" them. Budding fascists like you, that is . . .
Well at least we agree on one thing. The American government should really stop spending billions trying to stop people from getting high off non-alcoholic drugs... imagine what kind of extra tax revenue that would generate, not even mentioning the cost savings, and lives saved in Mexico...
How's that for free market capitalism?
Same here, I'm in agreement regarding "illicit drugs". The government has no right to tell others what they can and cannot ingest if it is done of their own free will. All drugs should be available from businesses willing to sell them and the effects should be known so people can decide for themselves if they want to take them. Let free markets and free people decide what is best.
I am all for drug decriminalization, actually. I don't want them "legalized" because I don't want them "regulated". Just ignore them.
Fair enough, I prefer regulation because it imposes quality control, and tax revenue that could be directed at useful programs; but its nice to see an increasing number of conservatives in favour more sensible policies.
Nothing screams government waste like raiding medical dispensaries... :p
Pretty impressive rhetoric. So who then has a right to fire and police protection? Who has a right to healthcare? Who has a right to clean water? Clean air? Food that doesn't make them sick? Who has a right to an education?
Should the wealthy be the only people entitled to these benefits of our society? I eagerly await your considered reply.
Why thank you. I do try to be clear and entertaining with my rhetoric.
I believe you are confused about "rights". Police and fire protection are services that we procure - they are not "rights". We could procure them through the private sector if we wanted to. For instance, in my community trash collection is through a private contractor. Same with health care - it is a service that we procure from others. To make it a "right" we would have to force others to provide the service, which is a gross violation of THEIR rights!
Clean water and clean air are just property rights. You do not have a right to foul another person's water or air. Food that doesn't make them sick? How long would someone stay in business selling bad food? We don't need government to take that on. At best, they can publish standards.
No one - rich or poor - is "entitled to benefits" from society. This is the crux of your deep misunderstanding. We are on our own: We can help each other voluntarily if we want to, but we can 't pass laws allowing us to loot others to force them to do things.
Oh, I know about the concept of inalianable rights, It just has nothing to do with that horrible ideology youre advocating
"The People have the right to be left alone from do-gooders and buttinskies who want to "govern" them"
You think that its better to give all the power to corporations instead of having a democratic society..? Read my forum post here http://occupywallst.org/forum/replace-capitalism-with-democracy/
I have not the slightest fear of "corporations" - it is government that terrifies me. We have an out-of-control government granting itself new powers every day. We have a Congress that has abrogated most of its power to the Executive Branch, or worse, to unaccountable "agencies". We have a confiscatory tax system that feeds this monster with unlimited money, and legions of parasites who "lobby" for it. We have a government that has infested and distorted the free market, and a bunch of useful idiots who now abet this by discussing the "failure" of capitalism.
The idea that corporations are running this monster is ludicrous. The real problem is Washington DC, not Wall Street.
celticexpress...you've got that backwards. It is evident that many of the protesters can't seem to admit that the politicians have to ACCEPT the bribery of the corporations to give those corporations the power to influence the government.
Our politicians not only accept the bribe money from lobbyists, they then turn around and write in the tax code credits and deductions for more and more income levels....that 47% that don't pay federal income taxes now includes an ever growing number of people with income between $75,000 and $150,000. They are "buying" votes as well as accepting bribes.
So where are they now getting all the money that they've lost by all those credits and deductions along every income level? Through all the hidden taxes they've placed on our goods and services...you know, like the 143% excise tax on a jar of peanut butter?
And who do you think those hidden taxes squeeze the most? You got it, those same 47% that now don't pay income tax...
Wake up. You are occupying the wrong street.
The problem is Wall Street occupies Washington!
"I have not the slightest fear of "corporations" - it is government that terrifies me. We have an out-of-control government granting itself new powers every day."
Idiocy in its purest form. Of course and obviously, whatever fear you have of the power of the Government, the very same power can easily be wielded by corporations THROUGH the government. Why else would corporations be pouring billions of dollars into political campaigns? Surely you are not so naive as to think they don't want anything in return for their money?
The anti-occupy serfs act as if there is some sort of inherent nobility in large corporations. You can go on babbling about Locke, let's look at Teddy Roosevelt. He understood that large monopolistic corporations can game the system and directly sabotage the free market. Today's conservatives, most of them anyway, pretty much genuflect to anyone in corporate America and refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that the big bad government that they despise so much is simply the tool of the corporate masters that they worship.
"I have not the slightest fear of "corporations" - it is government that terrifies me."
I know. Youd rather have private tyrannies running the show, instead of democratic processes.
Personally I dont like concentration of power in any setting, especially when the ones in power are not democratically elected. Thats why I want ro replace capitalism with democracy http://occupywallst.org/forum/replace-capitalism-with-democracy/
Your definition of socialism and your description of it do not match. You seem to think socialism is theft, while the book definition of it simply states it is a form of controlling the economy by the people. Socialism is a broad, umbrella term for many, many types of economic models. Please do not be scared of doing something new. And regarding your comment:
We should fix the parts of our system that has worked extremely well for more than two hundred years and has given the majority of Americans a standard of living long envied by the rest of the world.
Yes, this country DID have a good standard of living and now it is declining. We must do something new. Capitalism is outdated. As Albert Einstein said, it is going to be remembered simply as the predatory stage of human society. Also, please note that in all of human history, the way societies evolve is through revolution, think about our forefathers back in 1776.
Socialism is not new. It's been tried over and over in numerous forms and it always fails because at it's core it punishes productivity and rewards non-productivity as a result the incentive to produce diminishes and soon production slumps to the degree that the whole system stagnates. The most basic intrinsic aspects of human nature come into play and you are never ever going to change that.
If you look at every revolution in history the status quo simply re-exerted itself in time, with the revolutionaries becoming the rulers/establishment/party/elite. They controlled the wealth, the power and life was pretty much the same for the people as it was previously. In extreme cases, look at the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, North Korea, etc. China now is only enjoying growth and a rising standard of living BECAUSE of its embrace of capitalism.
Venezuela is trying the model you propose and it isn't working out so well. Oil production is down greatly, economic output and investment is far lower than in neighboring counties.
We still enjoy a standard of living not enjoyed by most of the world. Our 99% is the world's 1%.
Your view is nice but very naive.
what are your standards? comparing yourself against the worst or the best? if we were all slaves would you say, "at least we're not getting beat as hard as the people over there?"
China is not only enjoying its growth and rising standard of living because of Capitalism... it has also completely ignored the conventional economic wisdom of the United States. It has artificially kept its currency low, it has forced foreign investors to enter into joint ventures with Chinese companies, etc, etc.
Conventional wisdom states "Blindly open your borders to large corporations and things will get better" but China was smarter than that, and so they are the only third world country with a growing middle class
Have you ever been to China? I live in Beijing and I can tell you first hand that I have never seen a country more exploitative and hell bent on making money in my life. Upper class is even smaller than America's 1% and the so called "middle class" in China has a median income of about 1,000 dollars a month while the housing price is well over 300,000 dollars in the big cities like Beijing! Just a little food for thought. China will be dealing with it's own revolution soon due to this tremendous pressure.
Not debating that China is exploitative, but there are many other third world countries who have thrown open their borders at the request of the IMF and are doing a lot worse than China.
My point was free market economies do not result in an increase of wealth for common people; the Chinese are living proof that government intervention can be a very positive influence. That is why Americans are so unhappy with the fact that China will not allow its currency for fluctuate.
If China allowed America to decide its currency value, free market policies, and border policies, China would be in a much worse situation. Many Americans have given up and have began to blame other countries for the loss of jobs, failing American economy, and the deterioration of middle class etc....... however, people should do something about it! Its not other countries that are to blame...... Its America's fault!
I am under tremendous pressure from student loans as a recent graduate from an American university. There is no job for me in America other than low wage entry level work, which is not even close to being enough to pay for living expenses and student loans. I will not lay down and accept defeat! I am not defeated until I'm dead!
So who took out the loans? You did. Nobody forced you to take on all that debt. Now you want to blame somebody when you are the one to blame for your own situation. Your biggest problem is that you apparently think you are somehow too good to do an entry level job. The real question is: What else do you think you are qualified to do? A degree means nothing compared to real world experience.
How is an 18-year-old who has been told by their parents, teachers, counselors, friends, government, and television that going to college is the BEST choice going to know differently? They're told that it's a gateway to learning, to learn HOW to learn in some cases. So when they get out they expect a chance to use their skills somewhere. Except now they're saddled with incredible debt that no one explained would crush them for much of their adult life.
If you expect an 18-year-old to have that kind of wisdom then you are living in a fantasy land.
Relax buddy. I don't blame anyone. I am simply outlining my current situation. I am actually working hard to get things done. I traveled half way around the world to search for opportunities. I learned Mandarin Chinese and now work in Beijing doing immigration investment consulting, technology licensing, sourcing, as well as various other things to make ends meet.
Even though I am not on the ground in America protesting with OWS I still support them in their fight because its for the good of our nation. The fact that we even have to take student loans to get a proper education in our country is sickening. We sell our souls before we even learn to earn money! Not everyone has the courage to leave the comfort of America in order to make a life for themselves. I can understand the 99%'s grief with respect to the current situation on the ground in America.
It serves all of us to have a revolution now because after it happens its our chance to seize opportunities that will be available.
Good thing I won't have to compete with you because you accept your position in society so adamantly. Fall in line Mr. I'm doing something about my situation and gaining the experience I need even at the cost of being away from my family and friends, so how about you take your assumptions about me and shove them up your rightist ass.
Good. The rest of you whining, greedy, self-pity-ridden entry-level workers should follow suit and move to an area -or country- that better fits your ability to contribute at your qualified level. A degree is a wall decoration for an office you EARN, it is not a free ticket to the luxuries of people who work for what they have. EARN something. Take a risk. Prove your worth. Leave your comfort zone - and I don't mean by getting a little chilly sleeping in the gutter while you complain about someone making a profit when YOU DECIDE that you want their good/service. Grow up. Sometimes that means that you play the game and work your way to your ultimate goal, you didn't earn a corner office by getting a degree. You might think you're smarter than the guy who interviewed you, but experience matters - go get some. Do it yourself if no one else will pay you for showing up.
If you're concerned about the politics, protest the politician. Barney Frank held a fundraising dinner among his Wall Street donors right under your noses 2 weeks ago. No mention. No protest.
Your vote counts - change the minds of the electorate, if you want political change. Wall Street and the rest of the 1% are mocking you. Occupying a park and wandering around the street with bongos and a sign is not going to change anyone's behavior.
Funny how nobody brings that little tidbit up in any of our public schools. It must feel downright giddy to point out how teenagers are to blame for swallowing what every adult in every part of their lives has been feeding them from the time they could talk. Kids are outright GUARANTEED from the time they enter kindergarten that people who don't go to college invariably end up broke, miserable, and stupid. When they get to high school, they're literally SWARMED with smooth-talking sales pitches about how much it'll cost them NOT to go to college. With the financing arrangements guaranteed, there's no excuse but pure laziness and apathy NOT to enrich your mind and take charge of the world!
How often do you think these kids are told the truth about what they're signing themselves into? Do you think those college recruiters and bank sharks explain the terms of these loans in full? I wonder how many are made aware that there are special laws protecting the lender's investment from every single angle, allowing student loans to follow and shackle a person for LIFE, even if their degree turns out to be nearly worthless in the job market? Do they explain that even though bankruptcy will get you off the hook for $30000 in credit card charges for vacations and fine dining, you can't even touch their penalty fees in any court plea? Surely they at least point out that while mothers everywhere have to hire lawyers and investigators just to have a deadbeat father receive a stern letter, shortcuts are paved through the civil courts to give student loan creditors the ability to garnish your paycheck without even taking you to court?
You've got a lot of ignorant nerve suggesting that nobody "forced him to take on all that debt." I guess I'll concede that no beatings were administered in the process, but you're talking about CHILDREN who are being lied to and guilt-tripped by experienced businessmen who not only promise them all their dreams for just a signature but also assure them a life of poverty and discrimination if they even hesitate to think things over.
Finally, people sometimes use the term "entry level" in the wrong context, which makes it easier for people like you to call them spoiled / greedy / lazy. Also, without knowing his someone's work history, it's pretty snide to tell them they're too good for entry level work. Many a hardworking college graduate with years of experience has been suddenly laid off and sent back to the starting line - not because they're idiots or their skills are unneeded, but because it can get done cheaper in a third-world country without a bunch of pushy labor laws to hassle managers and hinder productivity. Since this is a "recent graduate" you're bashing on, that's probably not the case. Even if he wasn't offered a mop job instead of whatever field he studied, the point is not that he's feeling too precious to do the grunt work, but that he's just now realizing that whoever kept swearing a student loan would pay itself off with a few years of white collar elitism. It might even piss him off to see that blue collar workers who ignored the hype and chose to swing a hammer or dig those ever-mentioned ditches are getting a higher wage without having loan sharks convince the courts to disclose your spending habits so they could use it to humiliate you while making sure they're taking out every single dime that you don't require for survival.
andersonna: I would not declare bankruptcy to ditch a loan i took out as long as I am able bodied and have my dignity in tact.
But saying this you should take a look at all the "winners" that do precisely this when they are threatened with loosing their hard earned and well protected fortunes.
Perhaps we should all strive to become executives, so we have the right to rob everyone blind and kill the whistle blowers.
You must live in a perfect world where everything is laid out in black and white right?
My parents advocated college but I was forewarned that I would have to find a way to pay for it myself. Unable to pay for full time or part time tuition (part of the deal was you move out when you reach 18- you're an adult, support yourself), I took a number of blue collar jobs and have spent many years of my life waiting tables while taking courses, one at a time, that interest me and learning what I wanted to learn. I may not have a fancy degree on the wall, but I've always managed to support myself until very recently due to an unforeseen accident. I have always tried to live within my means. When I had a child, I mysteriously had a backwards way of thinking for a short time, that I needed credit to live, so at some time in the distant future I might need to qualify for a loan to survive! Credit was essential! That a new car, even a modest one, was mandatory so I wouldn't have breakdowns in mid-winter and be stranded with my baby in the car! So I took out loans I couldn't afford, accepted credit cards at unreasonable rates. It was fine when I was working, but now, no way, and I am on the brink of financial collapse. I wish I had the common sense I did when I was a teen- don't take out a debt if you're not sure how you're going to pay it. I'm suffering now, but hopefully not for much longer, now that I have regained my common sense.
I agree somewhat. I do think that our society has been teaching chidden to do good and go to college so they can make money to buy stuff they don't need, insert Capitalism. Instead they should first be taught home to provide for them selves the hard way, with out credit or student loans. Many States have state colleges that are in expensive. One could work and go to school. I ate my own dog food going into printing because Iloved to do it. But after 13 yrs I made the huge mistake of whiting the american dream that "I" thought I was missing. So took out huge loans got a degree in Computer Science and have found I only am doing it for the money. But after 4 layoffs I am looking deep inside to find what work provides me with the joy of every work day. Sorry if I offended anyone, but we all see a need for a change, not sure what will work, at least Occupy ** is trying.
Wow. A lot of misplaced anger here. What a complete and utter loser.
If you are in debt, it's YOUR fault. No one, and I mean NO ONE, owes you a job after you graduate and NO ONE owes you a career for the rest of your life. You should not be allowed to walk away from debt through bankruptcy - LOSERS think that way.
Your entitlement mentality will be the ruin of this country.
Yeah, I graduated under the same circumstances. Bummer.
No jobs in the area of the country where i lived. I was forced to move 1200 miles away and take a job that that I really wasn't qualified for just to make a living.
Talk about college debt. My wife's debt was about 50% of the amount that she could make that first year. We had never taken food stamps or medicaid during college but fortunately didn't have a big bill from that. Also really didn't have a usable car until my last year in school.
Then, once we got jobs, we were forced to drive another 70 or so miles over dirt - seldom graded roads to a place of employment where they would provide us housing (not furniture - we did have our packing boxes - both of them)
Loved every minute of it. Great work, great people, great land. Still go back to visit to renew those great days. of the mid 1960's
So what did you say had changed so much???
AHA! Now we get an idea.... The economy has changed a LOT since the 60's.
Quoting (and it's all backed up with numbers): "In 1970, you could work 755 hours at a minimum wage job over the course of a year to earn enough to pay for a year of schooling at a public institution – about 14 hours per week. In 2010, you would have to work 1,823 hours at a minimum wage job over the course of a year to earn enough money to pay for a year of schooling at a public institution – about 35 hours per week."
====
http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2011/10/13/a-dose-of-financial-reality/
So that 50% of income it cost to pay those loans? Yeah, that would take your wife's (then) entire job PLUS part of yours (maybe 25-50% of it) JUST to pay back.
Seriously, we're not more lazy than any other generation. We may get painted that way, but we're as hard-working as any. We may want to work SMARTER, but that isn't bad either.
Basically, as the article states, give kids today a break. They're up against financial powers that are literally almost insurmountable.
I hope this is comparing same source data: YALE to YALE etc
Let me try to recall what it cost back then. Just to get into the dorm in the fall I had to work 100 hours per week all summer at 65 cents per hour at a filling station.
No cheaper public schooling any closer to where I lived and my folks could afford two trips a semester (actually one trip as my roommates folks made the other trip for us). Now I am in the dorm and there was the Fri-Sat night job at the student union, cleaning houses most weekends, and working the kitchen at the dorm every evening meal.
Today, my grandson, at the age of 15, is going to college for somewhere around $450 per semester, plus the books which cost more than that, all the food he can eat, his own personal private room, and is having a great time.
I helped him pay his first semester tuition. It was a deal that I just could not pass up. If I wan't so old, I would jump at the chance for a deal like that. Man, in two years he will be ready to move on and will not own anyone a dime.
I am sure you have figured out the whole thing by now. Life is a matter of choices isn't it. You make the choice that my grandson did, I have described what you get.
You make some other decision, and you get the consequences of that decision. It really isn't my responsibility as a taxpayer to be held responsible for your decisions.
Bread is $3.00 a loaf when it used to be 25cents. you want me to make up the $2.75 difference too??. Try a loaf of cheap white bread for a while - it really won't kill you.
Point taken. I can agree with this. The protection of China's market and government regulation does have a sheltering effect. However, being here and witnessing it first hand makes me believe that its not a question of whether to exploit or not to exploit, but rather who gets to exploit the Chinese people. China's policy toward opening up is very interesting and also effective at resisting world political and economic pressure. The government struggles to fend off the outside economic forces in order to strike a balance within, while the "tiny middle class and rich" eat each other alive in rampant competition. The competition is much fiercer than any I have seen anywhere else.
shizzlej08 - perhaps you should have been a lawyer. Check into the bankruptcy laws regarding getting rid of student loans that say.
Or was I just another one of the misguided and misled.
I am not sure if I have given up on the idea of being a lawyer just yet. I just need to save up in order to afford the tuition after stacking cash abroad for a few years.
I looked into the laws on discharging student loans. You must either die, the lender must make a huge mistake in the contract. There have also been circumstances when the lender has sold the loan so many times that the current holder is not able to provide accurate documentation that proves you actually owe the money. In this case you may be able to have the loan dismissed on a technicality.
Student loan terms have changed over the years. They passed a bill which makes it damn near impossible to discharge the loan through the courts. However, it has been done before, so its not impossible.
People should take care of their responsibility once they take a loan. The loans may need restructuring, but overall it is a good thing to educate people even if they cannot afford it on their own.
If someone is able to get the loans discharged then that is great! Part of their responsibility is to stay up on the contract and be involved in keeping their end of the deal right? If they do not technically need to pay the money back then why pay it? Its the law. Technically those loans are insured, furthermore their insurance has insurance. If the guarantor does not keep accurate paper work and violates laws and regulations then make them pay for their mistakes. That is the game that we are stuck playing these days. Exploit technicalities, dodge contracts, scribble signatures (not your real signature), interpret the law at your own discretion, etc.... Outsmart your opponent. That's the name of the game right?
What a low state of our morals you paint. And you are not painting an abstract are you.
All of my kids ended up with college loans to repay. They ARE going to repay them or they can put it off and use what little I leave them when I am gone - Either way, they are going to repay those loans.
See, I think that they signed for those loans, used the receipts for their education, for the living expenses, to feed themselves, and they chose the school to go to and the major area of study they would follow. There weren't jobs waiting for them - they had to go where the jobs were
Yeah, they are going to pay those loans back.
But we will fill all those loop holes sooner a later won't we. Have you signed any contracts lately. A page for this loophole, a page for that loophole, a page to clarify stupidity, a page to say that you will be responsible, a page to say the the grantor will be responsible.
Look around sometime and we will see all the games that been paid in the past - A minimum of one page for each one.
The standard of living in China is far below that of the US, given the sheer volume of the Chinese market it could easily be as good or better, but communist policies hold it back.
HAHA you know whats funny about what you say about standards of living in China and the US? Many people in China who travel to the USA for vacation or study there cannot get over the fact of how Cheap it is to buy houses, businesses, buy luxury goods, etc. Its not only that they are rich, but its because they save money in China. Contemplate that a bit.....
Its interesting that people still think China is a communist country in essence. In theory it is and the CCP the "China Communist Party" is in control, but I assure you that it is a capitalist country. The party controls some key industries like steel, energy, transportation, etc...., but for the most part capitalism is at work here.
I think Capitalism can be a good thing if regulated the right way, however we have not the fruits of this balance thus far.
The Chinese sure have that down well. Just check those problems with powered milk, the crazy substandard building the melamine proglem. They We got much tougher regulations that we have. we play round in court for years on end - they just end.
Based on the principles of, should I say, a government controlled capitalistic model.
Our model has evolved into a mentality that says that if one us can have it -all of us can have it. I worked about two decades this a culture that had that as their original philosophy. What actually happened was just the opposite -it became the philosophy that if I can't have it, neither can you. We may be a lot closer to buying into this philosophy than we want to recognize.
Yeah, I read all about those:
The agricultural revolution The industrial revolution, The technological revolution.
"It has a deservedly bad rep. Socialism means taking property, capital and businesses to use collectively for the benefit of the people." Your right except the variety we have is exactly the opposite of your definition. American Socialism is the 1% taking the property, capital and businesses of the 99% and giving it to themselves through fraud and deceit, rigged elections and bought politicians , judges and bureaucrats at all levels of Gov't. In fact Socialism American style is the same thing as CORPORATISM.
The 1% have created the wealth they have. You act as though without the 1% that wealth would be divided among everyone else when the simple fact is that it wouldn't exist at all. Wealth is not inherent as you seem to think. It has to be created by capital investment. This is why your movement is doomed to fail. You want equal distribution of wealth which will never exist if someone does not create it in the first place. Under your system there won't be anything to distribute because the capital investment to create it will never occur. If you think some of us are going to put up the money so that the rest of you, who risk nothing, can simply take the profits, you are dreaming. If you did manage to get rid of the so called 1% (and you won't) there also won't be the almost 40% of income tax revenue paid by the 1% year after year after year at which point you can kiss the entitlement programs you do have goodbye. The ultimate irony is that your protests result in lost worker productivity as you block streets and otherwise interfere with commerce, as well as greatly increased costs for municipalities that will ultimately be taken from public services. You are making the economy worse, not better, and you are decreasing the money available for public services, not increasing it. You of course don't believe any of this now because you think you are in the midst of some grand revolution, but a year or two from now, when you've expended all this effort and accomplished essentually nothing in terms of long term change you will grudgingly come to accept it.
Funny you say that.
I've met quite a few people in my time, very poor and stinking-super-insanely rich. Know what? They don't differ very much most of the time. Oh, it's true, some of them are very hardworking and that is to be applauded.
MOST, though? It was only the right/wrong place at the right time, and the rich seemed infinitely more willing to abuse others/the system they were in. I've talked to some of them about it and they rationalize that they are "hard working", yes.
No, sir, most wealthy/privileged people I know today were all born with a silver spoon in their mouth, then rode mommy & daddy's coattails. With no worry of failure and large funds to do whatever they wished it was fairly easy to get a foothold in the Ecology of the Wealthy.
It seems from your tone that you are one of the lucky recipients of the "trickle down economics. Yes it is very true that some of the 99% get very good salaries working for the 1% and so will resist change. Until you get laid off multiple times by greedy corporations. Only later they report(just a broad example) that they have only earned $xx billion of profit, down y% from previous quarters. I am just looking into the revolution, and what makes it a revolution is that it requires unthinking of decades of capitalism and greed. Like I said I am just learning, but I am sick of the greed. I don't want a handout I want to sustain myself and my family. I don't need a 2000-10000 sf house's, 10 t.v.'s, the latest iPhone every 10 months, get the picture. Lets provide a way for those who want sustainability to get it!
And just what is your picture of sustainability A Kansas farmer,once fed 8 people in this country, then 10, then 15 and today we are at 28 people per farmer. Do you really think this is sustainable today. 7B and counting and we can't stay at one farmer per 28 too much longer.
When we reach "sustainability" who big will our house be, how much do we get for working an hour, what size car do each of us get. I really need more information about this. Do I get the same sized home as my neighbor with 11 kids?? Or do we do like China and not let them have 11 kids to start with and tell me that I have to have another one.
Your definition of sustainability probably includes all of us who already reached that goal to pitch in and help the rest, right.
Yes. Would it hurt you so much to lend a hand to your fellow man occasionally, or has that idea also gone the way of the constitution?
I think his definition of sustainability is one where the country we live in isn't teetering on the brink of financial collapse, with toothpicks holding it up.
And yes, I know what I'm talking about. If you listen to some of the really big money managers out there, they're also scared and have no solutions or answers for their investors right now.
Sometimes you can't just throw money at a problem.
Also, what are you so afraid of, mister poster?Do you feel you worked very hard and that your money is just going to vanish to someone who you don't feel deserves it? I could call that "entitlement" or "selfishness", but really, what ARE you afraid of? You're clearly here debating for a reason. Either a paid shill or someone who WANTS to engage, but is feeling defensive.
So... what's your side of it? We're all in this together, the people at the top DO NOT GIVE A SHIT about you, whatever you think. You probably think most people don't give a shit about you either, because we've brought up in a society that teaches us to kill and maim everything in our way, that no one will ever help. This debate is healthy and lively, certainly, but at the end we're ALL in this together (even the 1%ers, they or their heirs will eventually pay, history has shown without fail.)
This movement is as much about recollecting that we are each human as it is about wealth and opportunity disparities.
I am not in a position to discuss the situation of the People at the top and their s .
I fully realize that we are on the brink of a financial meltdown. What I am afraid of boils down to this: some greedy idiots in another country demanding more and more because they interpret it as their right have the potential to trigger such a meltdown regardless of what You or I really think. Are you ready to throw in the towel when the fight against the real greed is just starting. We have only made a snap decision about who the "enemy" is I fully belief if we can't identify the true "enemy, we will go the way of history.
The only real reason that we lack full defeat of terrorists is because they don't wear uniforms. If they did, they would have been DONE a long time ago. We just can no longer identify terrorists as our enemy because they don't look that way. So here we are trying to identify who the "enemy" is, and the only thing we can come up with is "greed". If that is the final word, them let's determine the source of all that greed not just point at 1% of the people or businesses in the USA.
Zeebr0
Great post. I just cut $550. of a man's rent today, cause he wouldn't have the money to pay for another two weeks. He is a good man - working for a non-profit group. Not blowing my own horn - just trying to blow your first paragraph out of the room. You know not of what you speak Zee. PS and no tax break, no publicity, no nothing. Just a man helping a fellow man - as I stated earlier, he is a good man working for a good cause.
There are many different types of sustainability. A small community say of 100 c an grow and produce their own food. But without going into all that. How about greedy companies get a bit less greedier and stop laying off workers when they still have billions in profit, not sales, profit.
Plus read your post man, you think I want communism or hand outs. NO, I WANT EVERY ABLE BODY AMERICAN WHO HAS A JOB TO BE ABLE TO KEEP IT AS LONG AS THEY WORK HARD. I DON'T CARE TO MAKE 100'S OF THOUSANDS, I AVERAGE 60-70K SINCE I SWITCHED TO SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT. BUT COMPANIES LAYOFF, PROJECTS CANCEL...I WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE A 30K A YEAR JOB THAT I HAVE FOR AS LONG AS I CAN WORK. SO READ THIS @RONJJ SELF SUSTAINABILITY!!!
A pretty simple example you give and one which I long for - if only we could make it work. I am not sure where 100 or even 100,000 people are going to find land that would support themselves, provide heat in winter, water, clothes etc. There was a time when my family did this, and you can see this documented in the early census records of this nation but this didn't include any software development operations. Try weaving, sewing, planting, harvesting, land clearing . . . . .
30K would not even start to sustain us on an individual to individual basis We have way too many fellow citizens to support as an individual to even develop a utopia idea of this. Who want's to live in Tucson, AZ if we are required to produce our own food there. How about LA, or Chicago, downtown New York. What you are recommending, is a situation where people would have to flock to to the limited arable land, creating even less usable land, and all the pollution that would follow them there.
There are examples across the country of the sustainability you describe. The Native American populations come pretty close in some aspects unless you want flour, salt, pepper, electricity,, transportation, health care, some type of old age care, education for your children.
Then there is the American farm family, if you can find one, They are totally independent in a sustainable world unless they want all of the above and some guarantee that they would be taken care of in case of a crop failure, death of the providers etc.
I am not in any way intending to put you down or belittle your ideas. What I am pointing out is the road to where we are today. Going back might just be the roughest thing that we would even imaging - though we do have a longing for that time, don't we.
You could have saved a lot of breathe if you stopped after "The 1% have created the wealth they have." That is one of the primary objections of the movement. Most of the 1% have NOT created this wealth by any ethical or moral means whatsoever. It was created by cheating, stealing, bogus elections, etc., etc., etc. You want integrity, character and honesty? Look at the 99%.
I have been looking at "US" for a very long time.
How do you describe us as being any better than them?? Please.........
Your so full of yourself. You've had your Reagan Revol. now for 30 yrs.. so why are we in the economic toilet bowl if your so called free market is such a bonanza? Or is it that for the 1% it is in fact and has been just that and you guys don't want it any other way? Well, game over pal. The rest of us are on to your little game. You guys wanted a class war and now you've got it. #OWS is just the beginning pal.
What motivates people? Not everyone wants money. For the super-weatlhy it's sometimes power over others they crave, or social recognition. It's addictive, it's a high. You can read about a bit of it recently re: Appillionaies who've hit the iPhone jackpot with an App.
Another example is Soviet Russia. The people in power had little more than anyone else, a simple apartment, just enough to eat. But what they DID have was enormous power over others.
I posit that THIS is the issue: Social recognition and power over others (partly via the internet/tv) is at an all-time high. Who wouldn't knock someone else down at the chance for it? It's the same in every era of history. Now, though, maybe we're getting to the tipping point that always comes: The wealthy push too hard and the whole tower begins to topple without the support of the masses.
Agreed!
Notes
All I can say is, God bless the Wall Street Protesters and all who support them. Anyone who is not in support of this Revolutionary and oh-so-devastatingly-late grass roots effort to force RIGHT over WRONG for ONCE in a long time needs to figure it out- even if you are selfish enough not to care because you think it doesn't affect you, you are dead wrong. My generation and my future children's generation don't have a fighting chance at half an 'American dream' not matter how smart, hard working, nor good hearted. And my parents and grandparents are losing everything too. We live in an age of modern day slavery, and if people would put down their video games and turn of MTV, open a book and Learn the reality of things, every single one of us would try to do something to help. Really, how much worse are we all going to let it get? Is that who we are? Please, educate yourself before you spread negative energy about such an amazing and hopefully life changing movement- be grateful that you have the opportunity to be a Part of it! We need this to survive- look around you, isn't all the suffering sickening? And doesn't the greed and corruption and evil infuriate you? If it doesn't it should, or I just assume you are just the same as those greedy SOB's who cause economic, environmental, and social catastrophes. One of the most powerful messages of the movement is "99%"!!! how can the 1% possibly get away with continuing the way were going now if we all stand together and take back our futures and rebuild our Country's reputation as a brave, innovative, honorable, and humane world leader. Please open your eyes everyone, and send love to the Heros in the streets speaking out for your own livelihoods and advocating passionately for a higher quality of life for ALL Americans, and all humanity. " condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance" - Einstein Peace Please
Please, OWS hang on. Never give up. You give us a voice and impetus we never had before. You dared to say the things no other group could or would say and a movement we all relate to. Do not despair of the cold, the 'naysayers', mayor 'Bloomingdale' or anything. It's just negativity aimed at your hearts to beat up your spirits. My money is on you.
you need to have the courage to say it yourself, everyday, where ever you are, don't give your power away to others - try using it, you might like the way it feels -
Much love and support to you folks who are sticking it out in NYC. I know it's cold there right now, we are thinking of you around the country, and the world. Thank you for your bravery!
Please call/fax/email 1 percenter Billionaire Mayor Bloomberg
http://occupywallst.org/forum/1-percenter-mayor-bloomberg-uses-false-pretext-to-/
FALSE PRETEXT & THEFT
From CNN: On Friday, up to 40 firefighters removed the group's propane tanks and six generators, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. That left the demonstrators to battle the cold weather seeping through their tents, blankets and sleeping bags.
FALSE PRETEXT: "These are fire hazards (and) against the law," Bloomberg said during his weekly WOR-AM radio show Friday. "Our first concern is safety." Demonstrators described the removal as an attempt to restrict Internet use and make their lives more difficult as a cold front moves into the region.
Billionaire Bloomberg's first concern is to squelch and trod on the 99%. Governments have always used the pretext of "Public Safety" to subjugate the people. Government claims to know what is best for you. Don't you think you know better what is good for you?
Please Call Billionaire Mayor Bloomberg that you disagree with his false pretext to crush the 99%.
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg City Hall New York, NY 10007 PHONE 311 (or 212-NEW-YORK outside NYC)
FAX (212) 312-0700
E-MAIL: http://www.nyc.gov/html/mail/html/mayor.html
I did call and let him know that I 100% supported him and wish he would run for a 4th term and that should he run for mayor again or governor in the future, I will happily donate to his campaign. I also let him and the city council members know that I would also vote and campaign against them if they fail to evict the squatters soon.
Please call/fax/email 1 percenter Billionaire Mayor Bloomberg
http://occupywallst.org/forum/1-percenter-mayor-bloomberg-uses-false-pretext-to-/
FALSE PRETEXT & THEFT
From CNN: On Friday, up to 40 firefighters removed the group's propane tanks and six generators, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. That left the demonstrators to battle the cold weather seeping through their tents, blankets and sleeping bags.
FALSE PRETEXT: "These are fire hazards (and) against the law," Bloomberg said during his weekly WOR-AM radio show Friday. "Our first concern is safety." Demonstrators described the removal as an attempt to restrict Internet use and make their lives more difficult as a cold front moves into the region.
Billionaire Bloomberg's first concern is to squelch and trod on the 99%. Governments have always used the pretext of "Public Safety" to subjugate the people. Government claims to know what is best for you. Don't you think you know better what is good for you?
Please Call Billionaire Mayor Bloomberg that you disagree with his false pretext to crush the 99%.
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg City Hall New York, NY 10007 PHONE 311 (or 212-NEW-YORK outside NYC)
FAX (212) 312-0700
E-MAIL: http://www.nyc.gov/html/mail/html/mayor.html
If you have 2 coats, give 1 to OWS, and 1 to NY Cares
http://bit.ly/q7i7bD
OWS would want it that way too.
Remember that we are with you in our hearts and minds! The city is now trying to use weather against us thinking that we do not have enough heart to occupy in the face of cold, wind, rain, sleet, and snow! Lets show them that we will pull together like the mesh in a tightly knitted wool sweater. Grandma's, moms, and unemployed people everywhere!!!!! Please knit some sweaters, hats, gloves, booties, and mittens for us! Its time to show America that we are serious! We will last!
totally with you as ONE COMMUNITY against this psychopathic society. their gross inhumanity leaving us without fire, and hot water. why do we accept their brutalising of us? let us focus on the number one issue. how do we get our money back. the subprime fraud was an INSIDE JOB a conspiracy. lets expose that conspiracy.
Anyone who calls basic foodstuff "crap" is s troll.
Ignore the trolls
I'll bet these trolls, when anyone suggests that Banks who sit on billions of dollars in cash should lend more, reply, "it's their right to not spend!" and defend those institutions who exist only to maximize internal profit and to externalize and socialite all costs...
..but god forbid a grassroots movement actually NOT spend its very last penny and actually have some money saved up ahead of time, and they are criticized for asking for donations while their cash store is not down to zero?
Really? What Trolls.
And these trolls, these jokers, would no doubt SLAM the movement if they did exactly what the trolls recommend. If OWS spent down to the last penny, and then had an emergency, the trolls would chime in, "see, you dummies, you DESERVE this! You didn't leave anything saved for a rainy day! serve you right!"
So with trolls like this you can't reason. Have nothing saved, you're damned, keep some savings while asking for donations, and you're damned. Maybe these trolls can use a time machine and go bash the Egyptian occupation movement and make Mubarak happy by taking pot-shots at any request for donations from them? It would be in line with their posts here..
P.S. I'll see what I can ship to the good brothers and sisters, might have handwarmers, long uwear to send :-)
I've been to OWS several times. I think I've pretty much emptied my closet of any "extra" blankets or warm clothes and taken them to Liberty Square. Also brought food last week. Sorry to read about people getting discouraged by the snarkiness of too many online commentators. The word on the ground is much more positive.
A half a million dollars is a lot of money. No one is asking you to spend every last dime of it, but this would seem to me like an emergency situation where I believe a consensus could be made rather quickly (when you're freezing your collective butts off) that this is an immediate necessity. You can afford to send 20k to Oakland to support them, but you cant buy thermal blankets, pallets, long underwear and hats and gloves among other supplies for the people in Zuccotti Park? And anyone who questions this is a troll who is slamming the movement? You guys need to get your act together in more ways than one or you're going to come off as one very large joke (at best) or disappointment (at worst, which is a shame) to the people who originally supported this movement. You guys seemed to have so much promise, but I just keep losing faith in this as the days go on. For me, it started with the lengthy negotiations with the drummers and went downhill from there.
Meh. You guys are getting "Madoffed". If they spent the money they could plead with the public for more. Everything else is being donated. This movement will claim the first homeless person to freeze to death, as a Martyr, but have stopped feeding the homeless the fancy meals. OWS=Opportunity Wasted.
[Removed]
Dont donation to this organization until you find out where the 500,000- in donations have gone. One of the founders was seen staying at a $700 a night hotel in manhattan (w hotel) . You can google it to see the new york post article. Make sure he is not scamming you and keeping the money for himself. Sounds like a scam to me.
Add space blankets and emergency sleeping bags to the list. They were developed by NASA and reflect back over 80% of body heat. I've gone camping in winter and the tent was toasty warm using the ones that are like tarps. Here's two websites that have them. Will ship some for you to try.
First website is much cheaper but only has lightweight ones. But it also sells them in bulk even cheaper. http://www.mcrmedical.com/category/space-blankets.html?gclid=CPv5m46JpawCFYTe4AodsyAo1g
Tarps: http://www.rei.com/product/407106/space-all-weather-blanket
And just where do you suppose you are going to get such a massive amount of supplies? Oh, I know! What about the Wall Street corporations?
Can't even exist without asking for help from others... No way to change the world!
Trying to get the word out.. but we need addresses of the other Occupy's.. Any help from the 99%'ers in Cities outside of NY would be nice....
TY Marlow/ investors4justice.net
Sending money, so far, from CA. Gonna tell my friends in NY to bring support. We are with you.
Okay here it is.... The Super Committee is going to come up with a plan shortly. Now, lets say there are 100 items on the Super Committee's list. As each item on the list is agreed to unanimously by 100% of the democrats and republicans, that one item goes into the WE Party Committee (www.weparty.info). The WE Party only looks at what we do have in common and has nothing to do with what WE don't have in common.
This WE Party Committee is about moving forward with 100% collective consciousness on what we do have in commom and collectively works on ways we can move forward together. The WE Party Mentor is an online volunteer (www.wepartymentor.info) that helps and inspires others online in a variety of ways. The WE Party Mentors (www.wepartymentors.info) often have WE PARTIES (www.weparties.info) to help and inspire others.
In regard to Occupy Wall Street, the WE Party can help here too! Using the same Pass It Forward Philosophy (www.pifphilosophy.info), we can work item for item and one by one create WE Party Committee's to help us move forward.
I welcome your comments.
52 East Broadway? or 52 West Broadway?
Just dropped off fifty hand warmers. Stay warm and stay there.
just ordered a few cots to be delivered
Found this website: http://www.irregularshelter.com/ Would any of these be of help? Don't know what Blumerg and NYPD will allow. Are there any battery operated heaters? I just shipped everyone on list that I could find, but I am worried about you not even being able to have a can of sterno!
If I were occupying (I can't because of my night time requirements ;) here is what I would do. I would put down a layer of plastic, followed by a layer of cardboard, followed by a layer of aluminum foil (or metallized plastic). I would repeat the last two until sufficient insulation was obtained. I would guess that, for starters, 3 to 4 layers of cardboard and aluminum would do the trick.
Why don’t you try protesting something that matters to the rest of the world! Like the price of gas………Hey I know how about the price of cable and satellite. I think we should all get together and disconnect all at once. I mean all of America. What do you think that would accomplish!!! Now I know the Occupy WS wont because they don’t even work! So any way I am just a voice, I myself can’t do it, but if all you people would just consider giving up some pleasure like TV, just think what else we could change. Steve Steve1taneto@netzero.com
Why don’t you try protesting something that matters to the rest of the world! Like the price of gas………Hey I know how about the price of cable and satellite. I think we should all get together and disconnect all at once. I mean all of America. What do you think that would accomplish!!! Now I know the Occupy WS wont because they don’t even work! So any way I am just a voice, I myself can’t do it, but if all you people would just consider giving up some pleasure like TV, just think what else we could change. Steve
Why don’t you try protesting something that matters to the rest of the world! Like the price of gas………Hey I know how about the price of cable and satellite. I think we should all get together and disconnect all at once. I mean all of America. What do you think that would accomplish!!! Now I know the Occupy WS wont because they don’t even work! So any way I am just a voice, I myself can’t do it, but if all you people would just consider giving up some pleasure like TV, just think what else we could change. Steve Steve1taneto@netzero.com
wood pallets for free!! hurry while pallets are available!! variety of sizes...all ranging approx ...42X42" ... 20-30 [allets available...first come first served... no holding for anyone...thanks and see you soon www.CLineMarbleAndGraniteInc.com 2100 JERICHO TPKE NEW HYDE PARK, NY 11040 516-742-8886 ....CORNER OF JERICHO TPKE AND DENTON AVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM MAVIS DISCOUNT TIRE
wood pallets for free!! hurry while pallets are available!! variety of sizes...all ranging approx ...42X42" ... 20-30 [allets available...first come first served... no holding for anyone...thanks and see you soon www.CLineMarbleAndGraniteInc.com 2100 JERICHO TPKE NEW HYDE PARK, NY 11040 516-742-8886 ....CORNER OF JERICHO TPKE AND DENTON AVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM MAVIS DISCOUNT TIRE
wood pallets for free!! hurry while pallets are available!! variety of sizes...all ranging approx ...42X42" ... 20-30 [allets available...first come first served... no holding for anyone...thanks and see you soon www.CLineMarbleAndGraniteInc.com 2100 JERICHO TPKE NEW HYDE PARK, NY 11040 516-742-8886 ....CORNER OF JERICHO TPKE AND DENTON AVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM MAVIS DISCOUNT TIRE
wood pallets for free!! hurry while pallets are available!! variety of sizes...all ranging approx ...42X42" ... 20-30 [allets available...first come first served... no holding for anyone...thanks and see you soon www.CLineMarbleAndGraniteInc.com 2100 JERICHO TPKE NEW HYDE PARK, NY 11040 516-742-8886 ....CORNER OF JERICHO TPKE AND DENTON AVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM MAVIS DISCOUNT TIRE
Heavy Duty Mylar Blankets are essential for cold weather camping.
http://www.newlifesystems.com/products/heavy-duty-mylar/solar-blankets/?sourcecode=NGOOPF
Wrap around your sleeping bag (under and over). It blocks wind and can be used to reflect heat from a small stove.
I'm not in anyway affiliated with New Life, but I do camp under the stars in the Missouri Ozarks pretty much all winter. Don't forget to keep your head warm.
You have inspired a nation - "Endeavor to Persevere" Chief Dan George
Not sure if your movement has defined at least at a High Level, a agrred upon vision on what and how to go about changing or even defining what is is that you want changed, but you should google the Zeitgeist Movement and or the Venus Project to see if that is a vision we as apeople should all agree upon to get to since capitalism has run it's course. At the least, these 2 movements should be passed along to every protestor so that they can read up on. Who can pass this info to the protestors?
Not sure if your movement has defined at least at a High Level, a agrred upon vision on what and how to go about changing or even defining what is is that you want changed, but you should google the Zeitgeist Movement and or the Venus Project to see if that is a vision we as apeople should all agree upon to get to since capitalism has run it's course. At the least, these 2 movements should be passed along to every protestor so that they can read up on. Who can pass this info to the protestors?
Not sure if your movement has defined at least at a High Level, a agrred upon vision on what and how to go about changing or even defining what is is that you want changed, but you should google the Zeitgeist Movement and or the Venus Project to see if that is a vision we as apeople should all agree upon to get to since capitalism has run it's course. At the least, these 2 movements should be passed along to every protestor so that they can read up on. Who can pass this info to the protestors?
Why don’t you try protesting something that matters to the rest of the world! Like the price of gas………Hey I know how about the price of cable and satellite. I think we should all get together and disconnect all at once. I mean all of America. What do you think that would accomplish!!! Now I know the Occupy WS wont because they don’t even work! So any way I am just a voice, I myself can’t do it, but if all you people would just consider giving up some pleasure like TV, just think what else we could change. Steve Steve1taneto@netzero.com
Why don’t you try protesting something that matters to the rest of the world! Like the price of gas………Hey I know how about the price of cable and satellite. I think we should all get together and disconnect all at once. I mean all of America. What do you think that would accomplish!!! Now I know the Occupy WS wont because they don’t even work! So any way I am just a voice, I myself can’t do it, but if all you people would just consider giving up some pleasure like TV, just think what else we could change. Steve Steve1taneto@netzero.com
What about electric blankets? I saw on TV you guys have a system to recharge stuff but electric blankets have to be plugged into something to actually heat. Is there any way to make that work for each person?
What about electric blankets? I saw on TV you guys have a system to recharge stuff but electric blankets have to be plugged into something to actually heat. Is there any way to make that work for each person?
Praying for you all.
Praying for you all.
Most of you are a bunch of spoiled, entitled people who mistakenly think that you represent the 99%. You don't. While there are instances of unrequited greed on Wall Street ( meet Jon Corzine and some of his bank buddies), much of the blame should go to folks like Barney Frank. Time to grow up.
www.facebook.com/uncagebull
160 hand warmers en route! Keep on keepin' on, you are supported!
Can we ship UPS to the address given? UPS won't deliver to a PO box so is there someone at that address at 118a Fulton Street to accept large boxes for stuff you need?
Encarta North America Dictionary entry for Sustainability (noun): Root word, “Sustainable” (Adjective): able to be maintained.
OWS Definition of Sustainable and Sustainability: how to live life without PAYING for anything.
Interesting...your delusional Utopia is not "sustainable". A little inclemnt weather, and you it's all over for you!
hope you all freeze
I am not at the Park but I am part of the Movement as we all should be. I will be providing 2 cots this week. Thank you all! Lets take America back
I am not at the Park but I am part of the Movement as we all should be. I will be providing 2 cots this week. Thank you all! Lets take America back
I've got an older winter sleeping bag I can ship to you and I'll cruise through the local Goodwill and Arc thrift stores for winter gloves, hats, coats, etc. I'm unemployed and have returned to school, but I'm thinking about joining you for my winter break from school.
Carry on!
The women who stood in front of the White House to protest in the "Women's Suffrage" movement were given hot bricks to stand on in the cold weather.
Typical. Asking for hand-outs as per usual. Go get a job and actually contribute to society, you useless hippies.
Am i seriously reading this correctly? The "99%" who are bitching at the government to do everything for them are asking other members of the "99%" for donations?
If you can afford to donate to this bullshit cause, then why are you complaining to the government to give you money?
Am I the only person who sees the pure irony and hypocrisy of this?
Do everyone a favor and get a job so you can actually contribute to society. Stop making my generation look like a bunch of naive children begging mommy for toys.
Listen to Noam chomsky.
Is anyone aware that the very supplies being requested above are made by the same corporations you are protesting????
I just sent hand warmers, foot warmers and sleeping bags to the Fulton St. address. They should be there early next week. Hope they Help.
How dare ANY of you ask for ANY kind of donations. You can say you're in the 99% of citizens that aren't in the top 1% of the most wealthy, but you can NOT put yourself in the same percentage as the LITERALLY starving and homeless people begging for change just a couple blocks away from wherever the hell you are all wasting everybody's time.
what kind of hand warmers would you like the one time use or the liquid or the zippo lighter fluid ones? I'll send what I can via amazon. you should set up ows wish list on amazon.
Wife and I mailed winter clothes and 12/120v converter today. working on another package. Best Regards, Nevada
Yeah, go buy all these things at the big chain store and really show those big corporations you mean business, ha ha, you people are silly. Let's drive all business over seas, sit around together singing kum bay ya, and wait for China to deliver us rice and water. Where can I sign up, sounds great.
I'd like to participate in the conversation you have started, if I may. I was taught to bring something on a visit. If you would select a place in which your people in Zuccoti Park would like a line of credit (where they can get something hot to drink or some pizzas), please email me at prewiredunplugged@hotmail.com.
You are under no obligation to let me participate, but I have written an open letter to your group and posted it on my blog at: prewiredunplugged.com. It is new and can be reached only by going to google.com, and then doing a search.
I believe you will find something useful to help form an agenda and to defend your positions. At worst, it can be a diversion.
I await your reply.
I think people should focus on actually doing something constructive instead of how to keep their butts warm all winter. This is not an efficient use of people's time, money, or brain power.
Instead I advocate creating a prototype ELECTRONIC DIRECT DEMOCRACY with a VIRTUAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY.
It is crazy to hear such negative statements from folks such as "doomed to fail" and "silly crap" directed towards a social movement that has in less than two months made world news. The problem with our economic policies are largely caused by the globalization that has expanded drastically in the last 30 years, NAFTA is a mess yet we don't seem to see that if we could only embrace our pride in America we could pull out of this mess. We will never be able to compete with foreign countries who use subsidizing to control wages and inflation, to bring back our industry (which happens to be the strongest in the world when it functions with national pride behind it) we need to expose these problems and begin to embrace sustainable design, BUY AMERICAN! Stop the global war for cheap labor and we will rise. This is only one beginning in a time when beginnings are all we have.
It is time to Shut Down AMERICA THIS COMING SUMMER until Obama steps down; and Wall Street Executives, Bush SR & JR, Cheney and their thugs are Charged, Convicted and Hung (REALLY) for Financial Terrorism, Financial Fraud, War Crimes, the Destruction of the Western World's Economies! Save Your Money and Support Occupy Wall Street through non violent action!!! James P Evanhoe, 63 yrs old, I have had enough of Public Corruption designed by the criminals of Wall Street and the George Bush Family and Buddies. Obama is a PHONY !!
A Winter Idea: How about we get 1-2 dozen subtemperature sleeping bags/tents donated (I'll help) and rotate out the occupiers during the worst weather. That way, no one person is trying to endure the elements indefinitely, and it keeps the movement going till spring. Small and organized. Let me know how I can facilitate this: lodestar714@yahoo.com Go Occupiers!
A Winter Idea: How about we get 1-2 dozen subtemperature sleeping bags/tents donated (I'll help) and rotate out the occupiers during the worst weather. That way, no one person is trying to endure the elements indefinitely, and it keeps the movement going till spring. Small and organized. Let me know how I can facilitate this: lodestar714@yahoo.com Go Occupiers!
Over-all, I support OWS objectives of the MAIN focus, which are as I understand OWS. The greed and "Gaming the system" by Wall Streeters: Commodity Brokers, Bank Directors, etc.
It is a fact, OWS has a very-wide spectrum of ideologies, from the diverse group of organizations, within OWS. I foresee, a "Jelling-out" of OWS membership. The "mixed-bag" of persons; groups, are confusing the REAL ISSUES, and the ordinary citizen, watching the news media accounts are indeed, causing a perplexed; confused, witnessing public to become, and proverbially, throwing-out the baby with the bath-water.
Another thought I desire to share. The issue of local law enforcement, and the LOCAL ORDINANCES, have a impenetrable effect upon our Constitutional Right, of "Right of,-- Peaceable Assembly" to protest!! The effect of local ordinances, and our Constitutional Rights conflict, where Public :ands, are removed from our Rightful access. When U.S. citizens protest government/social wrongful actions as grievances, under Constitutional Protection, for Peaceful Assembly. we CURRENTLY are CONFRONTED with-- ARMED GOVERNMENT OFFICALS. May I remind you, my fellow countrymen, the law enforcement agencies in local; county; State, and U.S. Federal,----ARE INDEED--included as GOVERNMENT. So when I say, an ARMED GOVERNMENT, it is just that,----ARMED!! While we all acceptb and understand the sevices of law enforcement, the reality is, laws and enforcement, at TIMES, conflict with our Rights!!
The issue of ELECTED local government officals, ORDERING an another branch of our government, the law enforcement agencies, have INFRINGED upon our Constitutional Right, to PEACEABLE ASSEMBLY. Mayors of cities, are presently ordering COMPLIANCE to local ordinances, to --CLOSE Public Lands, ie, city, county recreational Parks. the effect of this means, Protest, and protesters, MUST STOP PROTESTING!! Where in our Constitution, does it require citizens to STOP PROTESTING?
We as citizens have the Right, to CONTROL government, even law enforcement government agencies. However at PRESENT, our government agencies are controlling us, as CITIZENS.
I hope to add my thoughts, to give an insight from an average, ordinary citizen, to this VERY IMPORTANT issues, confroting ALL Americans today.
Thank you for the opportunity, to express myself!
Regards, Daniel L. Bushey
Over-all, I support OWS objectives of the MAIN focus, which are as I understand OWS. The greed and "Gaming the system" by Wall Streeters: Commodity Brokers, Bank Directors, etc.
It is a fact, OWS has a very-wide spectrum of ideologies, from the diverse group of organizations, within OWS. I foresee, a "Jelling-out" of OWS membership. The "mixed-bag" of persons; groups, are confusing the REAL ISSUES, and the ordinary citizen, watching the news media accounts are indeed, causing a perplexed; confused, witnessing public to become, and proverbially, throwing-out the baby with the bath-water.
Another thought I desire to share. The issue of local law enforcement, and the LOCAL ORDINANCES, have a impenetrable effect upon our Constitutional Right, of "Right of,-- Peaceable Assembly" to protest!! The effect of local ordinances, and our Constitutional Rights conflict, where Public :ands, are removed from our Rightful access. When U.S. citizens protest government/social wrongful actions as grievances, under Constitutional Protection, for Peaceful Assembly. we CURRENTLY are CONFRONTED with-- ARMED GOVERNMENT OFFICALS. May I remind you, my fellow countrymen, the law enforcement agencies in local; county; State, and U.S. Federal,----ARE INDEED--included as GOVERNMENT. So when I say, an ARMED GOVERNMENT, it is just that,----ARMED!! While we all acceptb and understand the sevices of law enforcement, the reality is, laws and enforcement, at TIMES, conflict with our Rights!!
The issue of ELECTED local government officals, ORDERING an another branch of our government, the law enforcement agencies, have INFRINGED upon our Constitutional Right, to PEACEABLE ASSEMBLY. Mayors of cities, are presently ordering COMPLIANCE to local ordinances, to --CLOSE Public Lands, ie, city, county recreational Parks. the effect of this means, Protest, and protesters, MUST STOP PROTESTING!! Where in our Constitution, does it require citizens to STOP PROTESTING?
We as citizens have the Right, to CONTROL government, even law enforcement government agencies. However at PRESENT, our government agencies are controlling us, as CITIZENS.
I hope to add my thoughts, to give an insight from an average, ordinary citizen, to this VERY IMPORTANT issues, confroting ALL Americans today.
Thank you for the opportunity, to express myself!
Regards, Daniel L. Bushey
Over-all, I support OWS objectives of the MAIN focus, which are as I understand OWS. The greed and "Gaming the system" by Wall Streeters: Commodity Brokers, Bank Directors, etc.
It is a fact, OWS has a very-wide spectrum of ideologies, from the diverse group of organizations, within OWS. I foresee, a "Jelling-out" of OWS membership. The "mixed-bag" of persons; groups, are confusing the REAL ISSUES, and the ordinary citizen, watching the news media accounts are indeed, causing a perplexed; confused, witnessing public to become, and proverbially, throwing-out the baby with the bath-water.
Another thought I desire to share. The issue of local law enforcement, and the LOCAL ORDINANCES, have a impenetrable effect upon our Constitutional Right, of "Right of,-- Peaceable Assembly" to protest!! The effect of local ordinances, and our Constitutional Rights conflict, where Public :ands, are removed from our Rightful access. When U.S. citizens protest government/social wrongful actions as grievances, under Constitutional Protection, for Peaceful Assembly. we CURRENTLY are CONFRONTED with-- ARMED GOVERNMENT OFFICALS. May I remind you, my fellow countrymen, the law enforcement agencies in local; county; State, and U.S. Federal,----ARE INDEED--included as GOVERNMENT. So when I say, an ARMED GOVERNMENT, it is just that,----ARMED!! While we all acceptb and understand the sevices of law enforcement, the reality is, laws and enforcement, at TIMES, conflict with our Rights!!
The issue of ELECTED local government officals, ORDERING an another branch of our government, the law enforcement agencies, have INFRINGED upon our Constitutional Right, to PEACEABLE ASSEMBLY. Mayors of cities, are presently ordering COMPLIANCE to local ordinances, to --CLOSE Public Lands, ie, city, county recreational Parks. the effect of this means, Protest, and protesters, MUST STOP PROTESTING!! Where in our Constitution, does it require citizens to STOP PROTESTING?
We as citizens have the Right, to CONTROL government, even law enforcement government agencies. However at PRESENT, our government agencies are controlling us, as CITIZENS.
I hope to add my thoughts, to give an insight from an average, ordinary citizen, to this VERY IMPORTANT issues, confroting ALL Americans today.
Thank you for the opportunity, to express myself!
Regards, Daniel L. Bushey
You are all major LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm just looking at your list. Seems like it isn't unreasonable to require these items in a cold, damp environment.
My suggestion; pay for them. I understand you have over $ 500,000 in donations already.
I'm just looking at your list. Seems like it isn't unreasonable to require these items in a cold, damp environment.
My suggestion; pay for them. I understand you have over $ 500,000 in donations already.
How about you all just give up and go home!!! No ONE CARES about your dumb movement except you stupid hippies!!!!!!!!!!!!
They have robbed us of all our financial security. Thank You all for being so Brave. Gob Bless
They have robbed us of all our financial security. Thank You all for being so Brave. Gob Bless
Dear friends at OWS
Thank you for showing tremendous resolve and toughing it out in the snow this weekend. You are an inspiration to us all. Thank you for speaking up for those of us who are single parents, restricted by work due to other domestic and professional responsibilities, those of us with other engagements or restrictions of finance, proximity, transportation, and health. Thank you for not only standing up for what we believe in; but for educating people and each other. Knowledge is power. Our freedom of speech is making the distribution of this power a liability to the corrupt. Continue the cause.
We salute your efforts and are with you in spirit even in instances where we can't be there in person.
Dear friends at Occupy,
Thank you for showing tremendous resolve and toughing it out in the snow this weekend. You are an inspiration to us all. Thank you for speaking up for those of us who are single parents, restricted by work due to other domestic and professional responsibilities, those of us with other engagements or restrictions of finance, proximity, transportation, and health. Thank you for not only standing up for what we believe in; but for educating people and each other. Knowledge is power. Our freedom of speech is making the distribution of this power a liability to the corrupt. Continue the cause.
We salute your efforts and are with you in spirit even in instances where we can't be there in person.
Add to the winter list -USED SKI SUITS! Great way to keep warm>>> Surely plenty of New Yorkers have an old Ski suit or two sitting around in their storage.
i have some old bathing suits and sun block i could donate (freeze baby freeze!)
Instead of material support against cold, you should consider mental and emotional preparation too, it`s far more effective. Learn the techniques to keep your body warm from the inside, from Wim Hof, known as the iceman with 20 world records on his name: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BpKXE2lm4t0
What a bunch of spoiled brats.
Are you kidding me??? Are you really expecting the public to provide your sorry, entitled asses with donations and supplies , when you are already costing taxpayers around the country scarce financial resources to police and clean up after you? You call yourselves the 99%??? You give yourselves wayyy to much credit. As an independent voter my whole life, I would think that you'd be trying gain the support of people like myself and others who represent a true decision-makeing majority in this country. Its no wonder your only fans are organized labor and other left wing organizations that like the parasites they are, that like to feed off the hard work of others.
If we can't count on our own elected officials to get rid of you, it looks like Mother Nature is doing her job.
I donated stuff on Sunday. And if the taxpayers are worried about police overtime, then tell election-stealing monkey mayor Michael Bloomberg not to send anymore police to Zuccotti Park! Nobody ASKED them to be there, and the protesters haven't done anything wrong, so what's with all the police? GET THEM OUT OF THERE, and you won't have to pay overtime. And as far as trying to get the support of people like you and others who represent "a true decision-making majority in this country," we don't WANT your support! You know why? Because people like you are lazy, standard-issue weaklings who are interested in one thing and one thing only: the STATUS QUO. Real change takes work, real change takes balls, and real change requires DIRECT ACTION, which is simply not in the vocabulary of TV-addled, two-party-loving dolts like you. So please: DON'T HELP. Just stay away. We're way better off without you...
Are you kidding me??? Are you really expecting the public to provide your sorry, entitled asses with donations and supplies , when you are already costing taxpayers around the country scarce financial resources to police and clean up after you? You call yourselves the 99%??? You give yourselves wayyy to much credit. As an independent voter my whole life, I would think that you'd be trying gain the support of people like myself and others who represent a true decision-makeing majority in this country. Its no wonder your only fans are organized labor and other left wing organizations that like the parasites they are, that like to feed off the hard work of others.
If we can't count on our own elected officials to get rid of you, it looks like Mother Nature is doing her job.
Really, you need donations. Why should the 1% give donations or their money to you. People who work hard and make themselves "in demand" always have a job. People who are "obsolete" and are not in demand want someone else to pay for them. I would bet most of the 99% cheat on their taxes, dont put everything down that they should, drive to another county to pay less sales tax. But on their returns they don't report that.
I find it amazing how you feel it is your right to have their money. They worked hard, went to school and they have it. What stops you from having their work ethic. Do you know what the 1% give up to get where they are? I don't think so.
Why is your money your money but their money should be your money.
Get a job and get off unemployement. If you can't find a job, maybe take a look in the mirror. Cause there is a reason you don't have job.
Bunch of lazy assholes in my opinion.
NOBODY WANTS THEIR MONEY!!! What are you, retarded? All this movement wants is for corporations and other members of the 1% to NOT BE ABLE TO BUY ELECTIONS. Why is that so hard for you to understand? We want private money and legalized bribery OUT OF POLITICS! Get it? Jesus christ--it's so blatantly obvious that people like you simply don't pay attention to anything. It's embarrassing. Get a freakin' CLUE...
Really, you need donations. Why should the 1% give donations or their money to you. People who work hard and make themselves "in demand" always have a job. People who are "obsolete" and are not in demand want someone else to pay for them. I would bet most of the 99% cheat on their taxes, dont put everything down that they should, drive to another county to pay less sales tax. But on their returns they don't report that.
I find it amazing how you feel it is your right to have their money. They worked hard, went to school and they have it. What stops you from having their work ethic. Do you know what the 1% give up to get where they are? I don't think so.
Why is your money your money but their money should be your money.
Get a job and get off unemployement. If you can't find a job, maybe take a look in the mirror. Cause there is a reason you don't have job.
Bunch of lazy assholes in my opinion.
No talking beforehand: if you don't remove these generators...no. We just violently take from people. Why talk?
Haarp may be controlling your weather from Alaska. Angels dont play this Haarp. . Also can control disturbance in minds in a 300 mile radius. Beware! Research! Only way to combat is collected minds toward Peace and weather, try it, Peace. Faith. Yes Prayer. Dont let it control you. Heed my words.
Why not deal with the real puppet masters, who are also the money masters? The money masters is the name of a free on line video that begins to tell the story of the creation of the private corporation Federal Reserve. A better explanation is the on line article "Does the Vatican Hold Your Mortgage"? (It does!) The Bank of England was forced on the British by the Jesuit Bankers, like our Federal Reserve. The Pope feigns support for OWS while recently announcing support of one world currency. He did not mention that all central banks are branches of the Bank of Rome. The Rothschilds are "keepers of the Papal treasury" and a Jewish false front. Capitalism vs socialism or communism is a diversionary dichotomy from what is really going on. The KGB and CIA coordinated efforts to suppress developing nations in the Cold War. The Jesuit/Papal agenda is to restore feudalism in modern form. We in the 99% are serfs. Looks like they are succeeding. Neo-feudalsim is the real enemy.
Hey - please edit the storage space dropoff address for clarity - it's not written the way NY addresses are understood.
Currently "Daily until 9pm at the OWS storage space at 52 Broadway Ave, ground floor." Should be expressed with cross streets "OWS storage space at 52 Broadway between X Street and X Street ". Also, consider changing dropoff time info to "Open daily from XX a.m. until 9pm."
Thanks!
I saw videos for bicycle generators on youtube. They can be made with an old bike and things many people have around their homes (free). Also pantyhose make quick long johns in a pinch.
(I live in Asia so... )
Abolish OR audit the Federal Reserve by petitioning the Obama Administration. Here is the official petition at Whitehouse.gov: wh.gov/bC0. Be American, love democracy!
Get some mylar blankets. They are lightweight, dry fast and retain 80% body heat. I bought some at Emergency Essentials for a dollar or so.
Morons.
Just checked my balance and I can't send anything from the list today, but sending my wishes and a tip to keep you safe from frostbite. Avoid cotton, stick to wool - if wool gets wet, it still keeps you warm. Layer, layer, layer. Looking forward to a cold empty winter here too, but the hope that your voices will make a difference keeps our spirits up. Occupy!
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity do ordain establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
One obstacle to acheiving the aims of this quoted preamble from our forebearers is that as technology transforms the global economy and avails the wealthiest of more and more enhanced means to out-shout and out-leverage the vast majority of the populace, the balance of power between the very wealthy few and the relatively unwealthy masses is increasingly distorted, tending not toward the blessings of liberty for all, but toward domination by the few.
As Lincoln well knew, a house divided against itself cannot stand.
If the one percent desires a shouting match, then let it begin here, but I say that the ends of of justice are dependent upon the institution of rules which promote general fairness, and not upon the utterly hollow virtue of greatest oral intensity.
We had best remember that once technologically-produced or artificial entities have exceeded the abilities possesed by any of us, then the thing we calmly call the economy shall assign little value for of any of us whatsoever.
Need we all be made economically irrelevant before we see the light and reach the means of some more perfect union among ourselves?
If not, heaven help us all.
I've been wondering how I can help. Here in sunny California we have no idea of the winter hardships ahead for the Occupy Wallstreet patriots (The word "patriot" has been desecrated by the Tea Party; let's apply it correctly and see if we can right their wrong.) who are doing battle in Liberty Plaza. I'm sending help in the form of some of the items you've listed above. Power to the PEOPLE!
I suggest the ows people purchase a tone of hand warmers, body warmers, toe warmers and stick them in their shoes, and through their clothing, in their hats and keep them in their gloves. They last for eight hours at a time especially if you use the insole warmers for shoes. I work outdoors, so I know. That way nobody can say you breaking the law and you would be warm enough to stand out there. Get them online at whole sale price and check out tingly rubber overboots, (regular rubber rain boots except tingly are a few ounces in weight, better for the feet) stuff it with steger mukluk wool felt insoles, steger mukluk wool felt liners, wigwam wool acrylic socks, thorless heavy wool trekking socks, an oven bag as a vapor barrier and then polyester dress socks for another liner, sounds like a lot of packing but its better in layers and theses layers unlike expensive winter boots serve to minimize excessive sweatring in the feet that usually freezes against the outer temperature, you want to hunker down for the winter, follow these rules besides what you have concerning you dress warm clothing and other accessories
Unfortunately protest will end up being villified by the media the longer this goes on.Its easy to find people who are upset about all the people and the disruption to thier lives.Without real focus and goals the movement will go the way of all other protest back in the 60's we need a financial solution to take literally take the money back and gain controll of the companies who lord over us and corrupt our politcians and this is how...
How to remove corporate greed thru social financial shift
Once you have say..50% of the public signed on to the cause you can now organize on a specified date for a execution of the plan. The plan consist of bankrupting a company by pulling stocks,refusal to work,withholding pay from bills and from not buying the chosen companies products. For example let's say a multibillion dollar company all of a sudden looses close to half the workers in it's factory while simultaneously a major sell off of it's stock was occurring at wall street. The stock would plummet and the media would be quick to cover the unfolding developments.then as if the shock of a diminished workforce and a stock freefall wasn't enough the payment of half the goods on the books would remain unpaid along with the half empty stores filled with the talk of a giant who had fallen by the sheer will of the people The doomed company goes bankrupt within a very short amount of time and the workers start up a co-op an Employee owned company under new management with the proceeds and increase profit benefitting those that work there and the distribution of the wealth is filtered thru those of us in the community. We can do this to all the multibillion dollar companies and essentially get the money back. It was our money in the first place and it can be done. The benefits of such a hostile takeover of a major corporation are two fold you redistribute the money to the people and you eliminate a sponsor of political corruption.No corporations translates to no lobbyist and crooked deals behind close doors.Not only do you get the money back but in the end you get a political system that actually works for the people
Just saw a report from on location on PIX 11 News. The reporter was interviewing protesters about the generators, a letter to the fire department, food prepared by the light of batteries, etc. In the background... the distinctly annoying noise of her news van's generator!
Get a job. We're not paying for your campout.
Bahahahaaaa! "Property is theft"! Go naked, or be an accomplice!
Oh, so now the homeless people are coming in handy with their survival tips and all. Maybe you should have let them eat the goat cheese salads.
Better get the knitting committee working double-time. Hate to see somebody have to go to Walmart and pick some cheap sleeping bags up.
Our entire system is in decline and we have to downsize and relocalize and help each other. We are at the end of GROWTH and the debt based consumer economy. The banksters etc. are going down with or without OWS and they know it and are trying to amess as much capital and resources as possible before the crash. They should be in prison but it still won't matter. I support the efforts, but it should be an effort to open a discussion with our leaders to talk about resource depletion, energy and water and food scarcity climate change and saving what's left of the environment before it's too late. The current capitalist system is finished because nobody can continue to buy stuff they don't really need anymore. Even China and other up and coming nations will discover this very soon. PEACE TO ALL
Our entire system is in decline and we have to downsize and relocalize and help each other. We are at the end of GROWTH and the debt based consumer economy. The banksters etc. are going down with or without OWS and they know it and are trying to amess as much capital and resources as possible before the crash. They should be in prison but it still won't matter. I support the efforts, but it should be an effort to open a discussion with our leaders to talk about resource depletion, energy and water and food scarcity climate change and saving what's left of the environment before it's too late. The current capitalist system is finished because nobody can continue to buy stuff they don't really need anymore. Even China and other up and coming nations will discover this very soon. PEACE TO ALL
♠ Bloomberg purged generators ♦ from centers of assembled protestors, ♥ if one questions removing power, ♣ think insisted on frozen flowers.
How about we all register to vote? Might be useful to the movement in the future, especially during the upcoming elections! Good luck brothers and sisters on the front! Love ya!
The Occupy Wall St. movement is one that is long over due and I thank its organizers for having the nerves to say to Wall St. and the power structure that we will no longer sit idlely by while they make huge, outrageous profits while the rest of this country is sqirming around in a cess pool of poverty losing homes, livelihoods, communities, schools, and families, millions of people not knowing where the next meal is coming from, or if they will have a place to sleep when the day comes to a close. Thanks for having the nerves to say to the Wall Streets everywhere to GET UP OFF OF OUR BACKS, MAN!!!
The Occupy Wall St. movement is one that is long over due and I thank its organizers for having the nerves to say to Wall St. and the power structure that we will no longer sit idlely by while they make huge, outrageous profits while the rest of this country is sqirming around in a cess pool of poverty losing homes, livelihoods, communities, schools, and families, millions of people not knowing where the next meal is coming from, or if they will have a place to sleep when the day comes to a close. Thanks for having the nerves to say to the Wall Streets everywhere to GET UP OFF OF OUR BACKS, MAN!!!
The Occupy Wall St. movement is one that is long over due and I thank its organizers for having the nerves to say to Wall St. and the power structure that we will no longer sit idlely by while they make huge, outrageous profits while the rest of this country is sqirming around in a cess pool of poverty losing homes, livelihoods, communities, schools, and families, millions of people not knowing where the next meal is coming from, or if they will have a place to sleep when the day comes to a close. Thanks for having the nerves to say to the Wall Streets everywhere to GET UP OFF OF OUR BACKS, MAN!!!
The Occupy Wall St. movement is one that is long over due and I thank its organizers for having the nerves to say to Wall St. and the power structure that we will no longer sit idlely by while they make huge, outrageous profits while the rest of this country is sqirming around in a cess pool of poverty losing homes, livelihoods, communities, schools, and families, millions of people not knowing where the next meal is coming from, or if they will have a place to sleep when the day comes to a close. Thanks for having the nerves to say to the Wall Streets everywhere to GET UP OFF OF OUR BACKS, MAN!!!
The Occupy Wall St. movement is one that is long over due and I thank its organizers for having the nerves to say to Wall St. and the power structure that we will no longer sit idlely by while they make huge, outrageous profits while the rest of this country is sqirming around in a cess pool of poverty losing homes, livelihoods, communities, schools, and families, millions of people not knowing where the next meal is coming from, or if they will have a place to sleep when the day comes to a close. Thanks for having the nerves to say to the Wall Streets everywhere to GET UP OFF OF OUR BACKS, MAN!!!
The Occupy Wall St. movement is one that is long over due and I thank its organizers for having the nerves to say to Wall St. and the power structure that we will no longer sit idlely by while they make huge, outrageous profits while the rest of this country is sqirming around in a cess pool of poverty losing homes, livelihoods, communities, schools, and families, millions of people not knowing where the next meal is coming from, or if they will have a place to sleep when the day comes to a close. Thanks for having the nerves to say to the Wall Streets everywhere to GET UP OFF OF OUR BACKS, MAN!!!
Here's a thought: get jobs and buy them and not rely on others to give you what you think you deserve.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/brrr-1-rich-federal-reserve-cold-banks-solidarity-/
Hi, are you guys accepting cash donations? If I send cash to the address above, will that work?
We the people, ask that NYPD and NYFD please return the stolen generators.
Nothing so imporatnt is ever taken easily! What you've all done and are doing will CHANGE everything and giving in now will only empower those who you are all trying to push away. I can only watch your Country and your movement but it's the most inspiring stance I've ever witnessed. I feel so proud of everyone for finally stepping up and saying enough is enough! The World really IS watching!!
for some reason my post keeps getting deleted........I want to know why you aren't using your 500k + in your bank account to purchase supplies. what is that money for if not for supplies????? you are begging for stuff when you have more money in the bank than most americans
why don't you buy supplies with the 500k accumulated in your bank account instead of begging for donations..........
Funny how someone in charge of this is hoarding donations and not getting equipment out. Shame. You have the resources to get the right gear, such as wool and goretex clothing, and if putting up tents is a problem, then rent campers and buses and have a rolling convoy going around the block continually, you can cook inside and maybe even have sleepers for some folks. I want to know who is holding the donations and deciding who gets what when. I'm not going to sit in the cold wet while someone is hoarding and being stingy.
The question about how the next social system will be is irrelevant as long as we take out the money out of it. The only difference between systems now is only how money is spent and who controls it. Let me remember you what Josiah Stamp, director of the Bank of England said about banking system: “Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money.” Taking the money out of discussion (something like israeli kibutzim), solves a lot of social problems and most important we won't need to compete each other anymore. This will also stop the ecological genocide we start a hundred year ago. Of course, this isn't a magic panacea for what we have, but is a mere start in my opinion. Until then, i'll wait for the system collapse!
Best regards from Romania!
I really, really hope that OWS makes sure that none, none of these items are manufactured by the nefarious corporations! A committee should be established to screen items - no corporate goods. No made in China stuff either.
This 'movement' is nothing more than a Left-wing attempt to get Obama re-elected.
What's so funny is Obama just hired a Wall Streeter to head up his 2012 campaign.
You're all uninformed and being played for saps.
Use the money(prior donations) for winter supplies. It is the quickest way to get what you need.
Gimme, gimme, gimme stuff! What a bunch of selfish pricks...at a time when there are true homeless and hungry people in NYC. I hope all of you maggots freeze to death! You are a dispicable bunch of people.
I am a 58 year old middle class citizen with a husband, 3 children and their spouses, and 1 grandchild. Whatever I have is because I have worked hard my whole life. I am a school teacher and proud of what I have accomplished in the classroom and have no complaints about my pay. I work approximately 60 hours a week, counting what I take home to do in the evenings. I have the choice to quit and take on something else. I choose to work hard and make something of myself without asking government or anyone else to give me what they have worked for. I went to school with scholarships and loans, which I worked hard to pay back. My husband and I agreed that we would live on less and work to make a good home for our children by putting family first. That meant changing jobs and living on less so that I could work part time and be with the children more. I don't regret living on less and our children probably had no idea that they did with less because we were happy and were a family working independently of government help and still making it! We have raised 3 independent children who do not look to the government for a handout. They went to school on a little scholarship money, loans, and what we could assist with. They have and are paying their loans back while working hard to be independent from government and others. We are all happy because we can say we did it ourselves. We are glad for others to have an abundance because they worked hard and are rewarded for their efforts. You guys need to clean up our cities and towns, go back to your homes, and work out a plan to become independent of others and stop making excuses for your own failures and learn from them. You need to pick yourselves up by your bootstraps, dig in and take responsibility for your own destiny!
you are sad little girl with no idea about what is really going on around your only input is corporate info and that makes you a tool. i did more and have seen more by 23 than you will you whole life, we are picking up the world by the bootstraps and taking responsibility for it unlike you and your little closed minded world.
What is extremely telling to me is that these protestors want the Government to give them free education, free healthcare, and numerous other "treats" ... and they apparently want me to pay for it. All I know is that I wouldn't have the time to lay around a public park in NYC, playing on my smart phone and tapping out e-mails on my Mac. You know why? BECAUSE I WORK!
vagrancy needs to be dealt with. it is now becoming unsafe. mayor bloomberg, you could have put a stop to this in the beginning.
Your demands can never be met. All you want is more free stuff and, if you kill the goose that laid the golden egg (the 1% you so hate), you're going to find yourself with nothing. Can you say CUBA?
Where it really did not matter before to me observing all this civil protest and push for a more socialized government, I have come to a resounding conclusion that our democracy, liberty and freedom is soundly ensconced in capitalism. Subtract capitalism and you remove our historical form of democracy, our freedom to choose and above all our Liberty. I'm surprised the actual protest is not at the foot of the statue of Liberty.
Hahaaaaaaa mother fuckers I hope you enjoyed the snow and rain, finally you got the shower you guys needed, you stinky fucking turds.
Rather than use a vague term like the elite, you ought to be talking about the monopolies in the US. This is where all the money goes and they include not only private companies but the political monopoly (your elected officials inluding O'bama which are owned 100% by the private companies, by the unions, healthcare, oil, pharma, retail, energy, etc. etc). There really is NO free enterprise any more. Everything is owned by 4-5 companies in every sector and they all collude on prices, so there is no "free" enterprise, just a colection of monopolies, end of story. The demonstratons ought to be in fromt of the white house. Everyone from every part of the country ought to go to Washington DC and demonstrate not at Wall Street. They guys in Wall Street certainly are thieves but who let them steal. How about barney Frank, the so called liberal, whowas behind requiring banks to lend money to unqualified buyers which resulted in the debacle of home mortgage collapse. All the deregualtion of the financial services industry occurred under President Clinton. THIS is what destroyed our econmy. NOTHING will happen unless everyone goes to Washington DC and demands changes to break up the monopolies (oil, banking, insurance, retail, healthcare, drugs and on and on). The O'bama administration has done NOTHING to break up the monopolies! WHY? Because they are owned 100% by the monopolies and the unions?
Duh- it's cold and snowy - go home.
You are all a bunch of idiots. You are the puppets of those you despise so much. Good luck with the weather morons!
Occupy wall street has 500000(yes that is half a million clams) I think they can afford to buy warm clothes and sleeping bags.
Why do they continue to solicit?
Their greed is of the 1% nature
I'm a single mom in graduate school, but I had to buy ya'll a few things. So, I just bought a few things off Amazon.com and will send it right to ya'll. Solidarity from Occupy Grand Forks, North Dakota!!! <3
Wow. I am too warm wearing all these layers!. I think I'll peel off the sweater. That's better. No another log or two n the fire. Wonderful.
Hopefully all you whacko commie fucks will freeze and die.
Toilet paper is also needed - used will suffice.
I can donate palettes and blankets if someone can help me get them there
I think we need to regroup. We don't have a plan are a strategy. In the mean time our front line troops are going to suffer for it. We need a real revolution guys, not an occupation. When you see this you'll know what I mean because it will make you think, how could we have been so stupid.
Read “Common Sense 3.1” at ( www.revolution2.osixs.org )
FIGHT THE CAUSE - NOT THE SYMPTOM
Why not use some of the 500,000 for zero degree sleeping bags and other survival gear as well as some indoor space since everyone can't sleep outside indefinitely? It would help those who are patiently supporting you to have faith that u are not in such a lockjam with the GA's and not so adolescent that you can't deal with basic survival and have some common sense.
I hope you idiots FREEZE!!!
Fleece sleeping bag liners really help improve warmth. Fleece is sold in many yard good stores - it is wide and inexpensive. Buy two yards, fold over lengthwise, sew across the bottom and half way up the side.
Be sure to turn sleeping bags inside out and air them when you can so moisture build up doesn't chill you. Air the fleece liners separately. They help keep you bag clean and they are easily washed. Adds 10-15 degrees to the warmth of your sleeping bag.
Must See! Wall Street is the primary dance partner, but its escort service is the Federal Reserve ...self-serving it's country since 1913 (and this is not coming from a tea-partier)...
Very important --watch the timeline segment!!:
Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Bank?: An Uncensored Investigation of the U.S. Federal Reserve --One of the most controversial institutions of our time ...(Part 1 of an 8-Part Episode)...
http://www.youtube.com/baitandswitchtv#p/u/0/_M_Rh_fgKEQ
Also Gotta See! The Real Housewives of Tent City--A Hot New Reality Show ...
http://www.youtube.com/user/BaitAndSwitchTV#p/u/2/NH_WqjgoJLY
To the people complaining that socialism steals from those who create basic services and necessities such as food, public transportation, clean water, and so on: what if these were to one day be entirely automated by robotics and would free people to pursue their creativity rather than slave away at a dead-end job that really does nothing other than make a human a cog in a machine?
I'm aware that technology isn't at the point where we can automate things like food production or construction. All I am saying is that if it were, socialism could be much more sustainable, with the "lower class" being replaced by a robotic workforce.
Within the last several months the Office of District Attorneys Office - Kathleen Rice has instituted a new rule give up yor DNA or NO PLEA DEAL. A 911 hero waiting over 15 months for a trial, arrested 10 (ten) times in 12 months, claiming their innocence due to a false allegation. With the support of friends and family has taken a crash course in law and filed several motions to have them acquitted of all charges, against the advice of counsel.
On November 1, 2011, before the Honorable Rhonda Fisher District Court 99 Main Street Hempstead, N.Y. 11550, believed to be running for NYS Supreme Court justice, will be rendering a decision.
The question remains is Kathleen Rice prepared to give up her DNA and those in law enforcement, governmental officials and employees.?
Within the last several months the Office of District Attorneys Office - Kathleen Rice has instituted a new rule give up yor DNA or NO PLEA DEAL. A 911 hero waiting over 15 months for a trial, arrested 10 (ten) times in 12 months, claiming their innocence due to a false allegation. With the support of friends and family has taken a crash course in law and filed several motions to have them acquitted of all charges, against the advice of counsel.
On November 1, 2011, before the Honorable Rhonda Fisher District Court 99 Main Street Hempstead, N.Y. 11550, believed to be running for NYS Supreme Court justice, will be rendering a decision.
The question remains is Kathleen Rice prepared to give up her DNA and those in law enforcement, governmental officials and employees.?
Thank you for standing up for those of us who are on the treadmill, that doesn't have much (or any) future for ourselves and our children. The financial elite have far too strong a stranglehold on our government and our press. We need to return to focusing on people and infrastructure. It was nothing for our government to give billions to the banks within hours or days in the form of all out gifts or printing more of it because they behaved irresponsibly with other people's money. But, God forbid should the people in turn and speak up for justice. Thank you for the hope you are providing.
I have given to this cause already- most likely more than i should have. OWS has roughly HALF A MILLION dollars. Yet still you solicit for more. Why don't you spend what you have? Do you have an accounting of this money and how it was spent? You are joining the ranks of the 1%. Your true greed is beginning to show.
Cui bono is what I keep asking myself.
There's no way I have time to read through all these comments. I'm sorry if I'm speaking out of turn, although I'm glad there is so much discussion.
Campmor (campmor.com) is a smaller company that has great prices on many high quality outdoor products. I've used it repeatedly over the last 20 years.
There are many alternatives to giving our money to Wal-mart while protesting Wal-mart. It's worth the extra few dollars to live within my values. (And I live on a very low income!)
Why did the NYPD and FDNY confiscate six of your generators? What was their reason, or what did they tell you their reason was?
Apparently, only those that were considered dangerous were confiscated.
the lack of understanding is what is outlandish, bailouts keep many of the 99% above water too. It is the greed of all Americans that have put us in this mess, the ones that have over mortgaged their lives rather live with-in comfortable means, suv's and 3000 sq ft houses for families of 4. Do some research on the Unions from the 60's forward and you will better understand the basis for this greed and the fall of urban areas how the powerful influence of labor institutions in transforming major cities from engines of prosperity into areas afflicted by economic stagnation, chronic poverty, and all the social problems that come from such circumstances. Even now we suffer the ravages of the Unions, 5 of which are in the top 10 buying political influence, by paying ridiculous taxes to support public employees 500K school employees, 150K cops, 90K ticket takers, now look at what Unions have done to sports...next look at how many gov't programs are abused not by the 1% but by the 99% patients/doctors cheating medicaid is estimated to be as high as 40%, those that milk the social security system for billions - the 1%? no the 99, now how about the fact that 5% of those that work is this country are here illegally, hired by the 1% no by the 99% who want to evade taxes....
All I am saying is that the 1% can just wait out OWS. I really hope the peacful protest style works, but if the 1% doesn't care that they are taking all the money while the mass is out in the cold (and I think they won't because their hearts have been replaced with the things that BIG money can buy) than it would be nice to have a physical "Plan B" , even if it is only used if the 1% start to win by waiting out the Occupation.
God bless Occupy Wall street and everyone out in all the cities. Thank you for being my voice, our voice. I will continue donating whatever little I can. Love and prayers from West Palm Beach FL.
do you consider yourself part of the 99%? if so, what have you done to help or participate in the protests? http://littlebiggy.org/4660547
Politicians and police are pulling arbitrary "rules" out of their asses in petty attempts to hamper and obstruct the exercise of First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and peaceful assembly? Fuck that! The Constitutional rights of the 99% take precedence.
You guys are so awesome...inspirational!
A MORE EFFECTIVE USE OFTIME, would be to actually find the CEO's who outsourse our American jobs (while giving themselves raises) and just phisically "punish" them, they could not arrest thousands in a concentrated effort and the next CEO would think twice!!
gloves hot hand and flashlights are comming haing in their
At times like this, it is good to remember the hardships endured by those who fought the FIRST American Revolution. The one that established this country - which while neither 'free' nor 'fair' is certainly a step forward from monarchy.
http://www.ushistory.org/paine/crisis/c-01.htm
The Crisis by Thomas Paine December 23, 1776
THESE are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated. ...
I turn with the warm ardor of a friend to those who have nobly stood, and are yet determined to stand the matter out: I call not upon a few, but upon all: not on this state or that state, but on every state: up and help us; lay your shoulders to the wheel; better have too much force than too little, when so great an object is at stake. Let it be told to the future world, that in the depth of winter, when nothing but hope and virtue could survive, that the city and the country, alarmed at one common danger, came forth to meet and to repulse it. Say not that thousands are gone, turn out your tens of thousands; throw not the burden of the day upon Providence, but "show your faith by your works," that God may bless you. It matters not where you live, or what rank of life you hold, the evil or the blessing will reach you all. The far and the near, the home counties and the back, the rich and the poor, will suffer or rejoice alike. The heart that feels not now is dead; the blood of his children will curse his cowardice, who shrinks back at a time when a little might have saved the whole, and made them happy. I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. ...
Once more we are again collected and collecting; our new army at both ends of the continent is recruiting fast, and we shall be able to open the next campaign with sixty thousand men, well armed and clothed. This is our situation, and who will may know it. By perseverance and fortitude we have the prospect of a glorious issue; by cowardice and submission, the sad choice of a variety of evils — a ravaged country — a depopulated city — habitations without safety, and slavery without hope...
wish you luck
wish you luck
On sale today at Walmart: •insulated gloves, wool hats, scarves •long underwear / smart wool thermal socks •300 hand warmers, 300 foot warmers •waterproof boots in all sizes •disposable shoe covers •winter coats •hot beverages •thermal heaters •all weather sub-thermal sleeping bags •tarps •all-weather tents •foam padding / insulation for inside of tents
It is still fall, but I am with you yeah! free food, free clothing, free cigarettes, free drugs for the lazy under motivated people occupying wall street. How 'bout if any of you have skill you go find some work rather then taking clothing and food that would better suited to those that are really in need. In fact why not volunteer with a food kitchen or a homeless shelter and do something good instead of wasting time stinking up the park and diverting attention from the real issues in this country.
I'm warm and dry in my beautiful home. You should get one.
I'm kind of an idiot but wouldn't it be better to leave the cold areas and head South? Shoot birds are smart enough to migrate south, and I assume you're more evolved than a bird?
I'm warm and dry in my beautiful home. You should get one.
Why should I give you anything?
Scott X and the Constitution Commandos "Fighting the U.S. Police State with Music" Music Videos & Rock Album http://www.youtube.com/user/scottxmysteryband
Police Brutality is hardly a tool of the rich bud. The average police officer is a guy with a high school education, maybe a bit of college, certainly not the brainiest apple in the barrel who is just trying to make a living like I suppose you are.
Although the "ideals" of OWS are noble, you people are living in La La Land. You will always have Rich and you will always have Poor. For all of your posturing, you will never affect the truly rich and if you did you would not like the results. You are going after "Wall Street", and "the government" but to what end?
OK, great, let’s kill them all...now what. If it were not for the CEOs who create companies, you who do not create but want to work within somebody else's creation would have no job. No job means no house. No food. And basically, no life.
Course, you COULD get the government to make some more programs. This way you get the free money. Yeah, that will work. What we do is tax ourselves 95% so that the government can hand it out to everybody equally...I certainly see THAT happening. Would YOU work for 5%? Oh and that program that just taxed us 95%...well the rich see, they can afford it or they will use the law to get around it so it isn’t like you will affect them anyways. What you will do is stifle creativity and business and we will end up like all the rest of the third rate countries in Europe. www.asusoeff.com
Mr. Hughman looks like the 1% have done a great job of fooling you into believing that they are the only ones who have the ability to be rich, create jobs, stimulate the economy, etc..... There are plenty of people who can do it much better! NO ONE IS ASKING FOR COMMUNISM or SOCIALISM HERE! WHAT WE WANT IS LESS CORRUPTION AND GREED!
If some guy or gal has a billion dollars is that not enough? Or should he/she create creative financial instruments in order to squeeze imaginary equity out of thin air, exploit every one in America's desire for a home of their own, and condone corrupt business practices simply for the sake of stacking money to the sky? Money that can really never be spent!!!!! Its simply too much for any one person to spend!!!
Personally I feel these guys screwed up big time. We should make examples of them by tossing them off of high buildings, liquidating their assets, then offering the opportunities to other people. I am sure they would think twice before making the same mistakes as the last guys.
I agree that we need the rich, but they need to be reminded that they need us too. We do not need them to be irresponsible and risk free. If one is rich it should be because they deserve it because they did something no one else is capable of, improved the condition of America, and so on........ We made them and we can destroy them...... We are not simply here for their convenient use! Fuck their jobs! Fuck their trickle down pennies! I am not fighting my neighbor for scraps from the rich's table cloth!
So you can run things better huh?
One of the OWS tenants says something about "workers seizing their workplaces" So how does that work bud? You think you will take over my business? If you try I will shut it down and move it to another country. Oh wait....UNIONS have already caused this...duh.
Your ideas are noble but have no basis in reality. Take some time to learn how money works.
Well good luck with that Hugh. Do what all the other good rightists are doing and dig in to defend.
I think I know how money works my friend. That is why I am not living in the USA at the moment. Because the money is not there. Contact me if you want to make some real money in China. I could use some more contacts on the US side.
Business does not have to be corrupt.
Yes, of course, the old "job creator" talking point. Throughout the 1950s the top marginal tax rate ranged from 91%92%. Highest unemployment rate-6%, dropping to 3% at one time.
I'll be sending something soon...Keep going people!
Guys-- What about setting up a registry, with exactly what you need, so people can go to a store website, like KMART, and purchase these goods for you all? FYI: We love you!!!!!!! Keep it up. In the meantime, we're off to Astor Place KMART to pick up a cot or thermal sleeping bag.-Pam and Yariv
Perhaps OWS could forego their request for new iPads, and concentrate on mittens, scarves and hats instead:
http://www.nycga.net/2011/10/29/draft-proposal-for-sunday-1030-ga-political-and-electoral-reform/
It might be useful to copy the donation method used by http://www.childsplaycharity.org/ (used to donate videogames to children's hospitals) where you make a public amazon wishlist of the supplies you need, along with the desired amounts of each item, and then people can see what you're most in need of and buy that item.
For example: http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/registry.html/?_&id=21PLD7KC8ZLN9
but instead of videogames it's http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=camping+cots&x=0&y=0
Can they do this if they are not legally a 501(c)3? I am not an attorney, but I would think that with $500k in the bank it might be a felony if someone were convicted of a fraud of this magnitude.
maybe its greed....you know that thing they say they are fighting....lol
You people are useful idiots, and maybe they will lock you in that stinky park until you turn to useful popsicles.
Useful,indeed. They're actually the vanguard of a huge up welling of frustration and anger in the masses. The elite and people like yourself (its fellow travelers and shills) want desperately to have this end asap. You should all fear what is happening because the way things are going in this country is increasingly going to create bigger and bigger uprisings. So get used to these as you call them' useful idiots because they are just the leading edge of the political and cultural tsunami sweeping across the planet.
I admire your energy and spirit as long as it is non-violent and doesn't scapegoat any group or individuals Reminds me of Washington DC and all the marches when I was a college student there in the 60's and 70's. Maybe I'll come and join you and bring some down coats and blankets Something is really wrong with our government and financial system when well-meaning people can't get jobs or can't support themselves on the jobs they have Stay warm and don't get sick Signed,Grandma
Best wishes. NYC removing private property, to remove protest. Really. I hope that the protests grow, and that the movement remains leaderless, and therefore horizontal. The plublic has shown interest in your efforts to bring justice to Wall Street. I hope you'll find good consultation from them. They aren't as interested in trading leaders, but rather seeing that our goverment/corporate sector doesn't again upset the apple cart or continue to rot the country's apple barrel. Justice for all.
I brought some supplies on Thursday morning... as well as hot coffee.. did my little bit.. and though it wasn't much, I was so glad to help.. and share breakfast with the occupiers... Please donate.. The people out there are the 1% of the 99% who are doing the fighting... love from Portland, Maine
Isn't the donation money suppose to help the community? Why do we need to be begging for handouts?
This 'movement' is nothing more than a Left-wing attempt to get Obama re-elected.
What's so funny is Obama just hired a Wall Streeter to head up his 2012 campaign.
You're all uninformed and being played for saps.
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Why wouldn't you use some of the reported $500,000 already donated to you to purchase winter supplies?
what size of pallets work best for elevating the sleeping surfaces out of the wet? i can make some up and deliver...
I found a link to battery powered heaters. http://batterypoweredheater.org/ and solar powered grills. http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/20070409/solar-powered-grill/
I have been hoping to find a list like this! I will do my best to contribute what I can. Please do not give up, protesters! This entire country needs you, whether they believe it or not! Sending love, and some warm things soon <3
Be grateful, the whole world has given you a stage and they're listening. But seriously, go sleep indoors at night and come back in the mornings.
I look forward to a level playing field in the near future. Credit Unions are a start. Just think about where your money is going and act accordingly.
Bring all the troops back, we have a dysfunctional country to rebuild.
Kenth
NYC dumps of tons of chemicals, sewage, hazardous waste, and air pollutants into the environment every day and, under the guise of safety, they confiscate generators used to keep you warm. All I can say is US SS US SS US SS US SS. PIGS
NYC dumps of tons of chemicals, sewage, hazardous waste, and air pollutants into the environment every day and, under the guise of safety, they confiscate generators used to keep you warm. All I can say is US SS US SS US SS US SS. PIGS
NYC dumps of tons of chemicals, sewage, hazardous waste, and air pollutants into the environment every day and, under the guise of safety, they confiscate generators used to keep you warm. All I can say is US SS US SS US SS US SS. PIGS
Possible great idea for winterizing Liberty Square is to get some yurts. Occupy Toronto got some today from http://www.groovyyurts.com. Pictures of them being set up here http://twitter.com/#!/KatieSimpson24/status/130301272191545344/photo/1 http://twitter.com/#!/KatieSimpson24/status/130330536664236032/photo/1
Time to occupy foreclosed and abandoned buildings.
They won't let you have generators, start small campfires!
For showers and such, try to negotiate a discount rate for the group at a health club, people could go in and exercise even for a half hour a day and use their showers. Also even if any of the people take even one course at a college, they are considered students and have access to their gym (showers), libraries and even student health service. How often do the courses meet? Even continuing education courses given there would probably give you access to their facilities.
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11-5-11 remove your money from the "have everythings" Go local America. Local Credit Unions; small local banks; move your money. All of us "have nothings" are taking what is ours back. Then all of the name callers and haters will see what the power of the people REALLY means.
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RED CROSS = "People in need that have no means; or are being oppressed from obtaining and/or keeping the means that could provide life. "The REDCROSS must mean something here in AMERICA for OUR AMERICANS IN NEED!!! WHEN WE CALL; THEY WILL ANSWER!!! You are NOT alone NEW YORK CITY; Boise is geared up; we're joining you in your AMERICAN STRIFE!
You know, if the Red Cross does show up there, they'll never get another penny out of me. You people CHOOSE to be there, it's not like a hurricane hit or your houses burned down.
Agreed, and the Red Cross is my primary organization for my charitable donations, barring donations to my faith.
The Red Cross will not be there. My cousin is on the national board and they help people in the event of natural disasters and other emergences and definitely will not be helping the protestors. These people could go home, but they choose not to.
stuff it urine.
You know, that is exactly what I expect out of you people. No surprise there, but the fact remains I will never donate to the Red Cross again. Not like there is a shortage of orgs that could use what little money I do have.
Actually Uriah it is.. a hurricane, a tornado, a catastophe HAS happened. I am a part of what we are standing for and I am standing also for you. I WANT you to have a retirement, I Want you to have a severance, I want you to have the AMERICAN DREAM.. and I don't want you to be blindfolded and hushed anymore. I love you Uriah, whoever you are. I would come to your aid at any time. I am not a loser, I had a retirement I had a 401K I HAVE kids in college. Peace be with you.
While I've been unemployed a few days (and TN unemployment sucks) it happens every year so no big deal. Comes with the job. I more then make up for it the other 10 months. If I'm NOT employed in a month or so, I'll find something else to do. Might not pay as much, but there is plenty of work out there to get me by until my job fires up again somewhere.
I'll have a Union pension, but even if I don't, I'll have my own even if it'll be a bit less.
Anyway, I HAD the American Dream and you know what happened? My exwife got it all. The house I bought and almost everything I owned. Such is life. You get up and get on with it.
In about 10 years I'll be where I was, and that's good enough.
PS There is no way you can equate this movement with a natural diaster. None. It is what it is.
It's funny that you say "natural disaster" as they don't seem so natural anymore, instead more man-made. In any event, if you are trying to value the extremity of one situation over another (ie. something like hurricane katrina over the civil rights movement), then I present to you this, the people's voice and movement is not about the life of one person over the masses (as the greedy tyrants would believe) or a group over another BUT IT IS about the masses and our shared struggles and injustices. BUT not to dwell too much on business over politics...
I am starting a campaign to get our local groups and non-profit organizations for help donate as much as we can. Hang in there everyone!!!!
I actually helped alot during Katrina and worked down there for months and while bad, it was nothing like say Gulfport had it. That place was destroyed. I got paid to help rebuild the levies but we had time off with heavy rain, ect... I always wondered why we were there when so many already living there were unemployed, but it was a job.
They had a lot of help from everywhere. Lots of orgs and churches. OWS is NOT a civil rights movement, come on now.
You're right. To me OWS is not a civil rights movement.
I believe that the owners of Wall Street are the same people and descendants of those who have brought an unseen number of atrocities to the world. First with the notion that one nation can be conquered and enslaved by another (brought to us by Aristotle - who famously believed that women and children of a conquered nation should be the slaves of the conquerer), which evolved over centuries to what we now know as global corporate capitalism - the unending accumulation of wealth and territory over the world's natural resources, including human beings. Because of the above and so much more I believe that this a World's Rights Movement, a global human rights movement, one where the 99% is no longer defined be the dictates of the elites, instead it is one where we take back our god-given right to freedom and self-determination and/or actualization.
The Red Cross is there to help with natural or other disasters, not when a group of over-priviliged kids choose to camp in a public park in the winter. If you are cold and in danger of freezing, go home.
RED CROSS = "People in need that have no means; or are being oppressed from obtaining and/or keeping the means that could provide life. "The REDCROSS must mean something here in AMERICA for OUR AMERICANS IN NEED!!! WHEN WE CALL; THEY WILL ANSWER!!! You are NOT alone NEW YORK CITY; Boise is geared up; we're joining you in your AMERICAN STRIFE!
Unfortunately the red cross is another capitalist joke. They have become about profit not people.
The Red Cross is 100% non-profit. They have been there in every natural disaster helping people, often at great risk the their volunteers.
I feel bad for FDNY and OWS. As a career firefighter, I can tell you this is not a fire fighters responsibility. The fire marshall or fire inspector are responsible for this. You don't call out an engine or truck company for a generator violation. They used these poor guys to deflect the bull shit tactics of the city. Its pathetic.
this is correct. just like they use their thugs to attack us. they are psychopaths attacking our community. WE HAVE A HUMAN RIGHT TO WATER AND FIRE! we have depended upon fire for two million years. the main issue is how we have been brutalised by this fascist tyranny. they are brutalising us by physical violence. now they are brutalising us by denying us heat and power. we have a right to light fires to keep warm and maintain life. but if we light fires they will send in the firefighters to soak us in cold water and chemical foam. when shall we stand up for our human rights, for our humanity for our communal fires, bonfires and celebrations for samhain. light your samhain fires to keep the devils away.
OWS has no idea we've been fleeced by Wall Street gamblers
http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
OWS is completely uninformed about the bank traders who are gambling with all our deposits even after the banks blew $ trillions of dollars they are hiding off the balance sheet and buried the toxic assets that the TARP money was supposed to buy with our deposits. If the bank traders who took $44 billion which was an embezzlement after they blew the money at the track or playing roulette or black jack, would that be different?
Of course it wouldn't be different but OWS sitting in the park on Broadway doesn't want to know they are complete fools with no clue about derivatives. They would rather sit in the park in the snow storm and waste their time rather than admit they were clueless about the entire banking disaster.
BS! we have been fleeced by a regulatory and multi-agency ORGANISED subprime fraud. there was NO GAMBLE. we have been deliberately ripped off and the money invested in arable land around the equator. blaming the bankers as gamblers is like blaming muslim terrorists for the 911 INSIDE JOB. the subprime fraud is an INSIDE JOB by the same fascist administration.
We agree.
Here's what you don't understand. Derivatives are legitimate contracts. Either that contract is used to gamble or it is used to shift the risk. Shifting the risk eliminates risk completely. If you read my letter on my blog about the PIMCO fraud it explains in detail.
America is too lovable to let it be destroyed
It’s Up To You To Save America from itself.
I have solutions for:
1) Jobs, 2) Simple & fair taxation, 3) Health care, 4) Energy, 5) Justice, 6) Stop the bribes, and the liars -- Obama
read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
jobs are a myth. mass unemployment is here to stay. the jobs have been automated. yours will be next. the derivates are FAKE BILLS introduced into the banker's frantic game. the creation of the derivatives was a nationally organised conspiracy to push the sales and mortgages and create the derivatives and give them an AAA rating to fool the bankers into accepting them. 911 INSIDE JOB subprime fraud INSIDE JOB. lets unite to get our money back from that fascist administration and not blame this intellectual stooge.
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Posted on my blog and retweeted. Will be sending a box from Vermont on Monday.
Peace and stay safe.
Groobiecat
www.groobiecat.blogspot.com
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It's one of the problems of the solution, but it's a problem I guess we should live with,We all need to listen to each other.
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We have 24 thermal heaters made by Coleman Corp. The Coleman Corp is owned by Jarden Corp which is a larget multinational company. Knowing how you feel about big business I'm sure you would find it hypocritical to accept these.
I have 24 thermal heaters made by Coleman Corp. Coleman is owned by Jarden which is a large multinational conglomerate. Knowing how you feel about big business it would be hypocritical of you to accept these.
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I will send as many pairs of swim trunks as I can!!
I will send as many pairs of swim trunks as I can!!
WTH? You are staying rent-free in a CORPORATE OWNED park (Thought you all hated the big, bad CORPORATIONS!) and now you have the nerve to ask for free hand-outs? Aren't you all suppose to be self sufficient and "help yourselves"? Explain why I should take MY money that I earned to BUY things YOU should BUY for yourselves? Silly, silly, silly premise!
We hope the rain & snow washes all the filth back down the drain where it belongs. Get a job low lifes!
We have systemic failures everywhere. Washington DC's answer: more system!
Don't you ever wonder why the more the government does, the worse things get?
I am blue in the face trying to speak reasonably to liberals on here and sitting in the park. That didn't work at all.
I won sales contests 1 to Hawaii and the other to Rome. I know when to dump a prospect who will never take the deal that is in his own interest. Therefore my insults have no downside. My insults are meant to punish each person who is sinking my ship. Think about that.
Email to nominate Glenn Greenwald
Glenn,
If OWS fails to nominate candidates for the 2012 election, this protest is a monumental waste of time. Sitting in the park whining and demanding is howling at the moon. Depending on a bribed government for justice or anything fair is idiotic.
On 11/8 when you address the OWS movement I will attempt to draft you to be the OWS candidate for the 2012 election. Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, and Steven Colbert need to get on the ballot to run for the Senate of NJ & NY. The unions can bank roll the party and I will run for the CT 4th district Green Party. Liberals better start waking up to reality and quit voting for bribed Democrats.
Steve http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Media interviewing nitwits to be president
The media decisions to interview morons, nitwits, and imbeciles who make irrational claims over and over and over again would have no audience if Americans weren't in a deep trance. The OWS decision to not nominate candidates who could easily win elections against every incumbent in office is a ridiculous mistake. America is doomed.
America is too lovable to let it be destroyed
go back to work you lazy bombs to all free loader and mexican black and chins and all iligal allians homos and no good american go home no body care what you think
Sitting freezing in the park will accomplish nothing. The OWS policy to refuse to nominate candidates for the 2012 election is a dumb mistake.
The #OWS isn't a fake political movement like the tea party dude.
Its not fake, its stupid.
No your stupid Steve.
I am blue in the face trying to speak reasonably to liberals on here and sitting in the park. That didn't work at all.
I won sales contests 1 to Hawaii and the other to Rome. I know when to dump a prospect who will never take the deal that is in his own interest. Therefore my insults have no downside. My insults are meant to punish each person who is sinking my ship. Think about that.
Email to nominate Glenn Greenwald
Glenn,
If OWS fails to nominate candidates for the 2012 election, this protest is a monumental waste of time. Sitting in the park whining and demanding is howling at the moon. Depending on a bribed government for justice or anything fair is idiotic.
On 11/8 when you address the OWS movement I will attempt to draft you to be the OWS candidate for the 2012 election. Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, and Steven Colbert need to get on the ballot to run for the Senate of NJ & NY. The unions can bank roll the party and I will run for the CT 4th district Green Party. Liberals better start waking up to reality and quit voting for bribed Democrats.
Steve http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
Media interviewing nitwits to be president
The media decisions to interview morons, nitwits, and imbeciles who make irrational claims over and over and over again would have no audience if Americans weren't in a deep trance. The OWS decision to not nominate candidates who could easily win elections against every incumbent in office is a ridiculous mistake. America is doomed.
America is too lovable to let it be destroyed
Media interviewing nitwits to be president
The media decisions to interview morons, nitwits, and imbeciles who make irrational claims over and over and over again would have no audience if Americans weren't in a deep trance. The OWS decision to not nominate candidates who could easily win elections against every incumbent in office is a ridiculous mistake.
America is doomed. read more http://overthecoals.blogspot.com/
I hope this is the first of many snow storms coming your way!! I want to see if you really are like the Soldiers who endured the hardships of Valley Forge!! I just doubt it though!! I was thinking about sending you some money and supplies for a second or two, but then instead, I decided I'd spend it on something important, like anything else!! You're all misguided, you're all wasting your time, you're all wasting Taxpayer's money, you're all accomplishing nothing (although I'm sure you think you are), and you're all sounding more and more like Communist as each and every day passes by. Communism doesn't work, Communism has never worked, Communism can never work, but then again, neither do you Folks!! God bless Wall Street, God bless Capitalism, and God bless the USA!!
You're not the 99%, you're the 1% of the never ending Whiners, that the rest of us have to deal with!! You want a donation, well here's mine to you, don't blame Wall Street for the economic problems that Washington D.C. created, occupy D.C. instead!! Long Live The Tea Party (a real movement, that is really effecting change)!!
I work every day to beat TEA party republicans, we'll see what change they effect come election day, Tuesday November 8th. Mainstream can't stand the TEA party movement. I talk to these people everyday. People in the movement can't stand the TEA party movement anymore. There are more important things in life then guns and giving the 1% tax breaks. You blew it. Your chance has now ended. The change you made is in your mind only. Good Bye.
Paulie: I'm going to try to interpret your post above the best I can!! I realize you are probably a product of the NYC school system, which explains why I'm so confused here, but I'll do my best.
When you say "Main stream can't stand the TEA party", I'm assuming you meant "Main Street", or maybe you meant Main Stream Media (MSM), but I'll go with the first one, because it makes more sense, since the MSM hates the Tea Party anyway (unlike OWS, the MSM just loves them). Main Street loves the Tea Party Paulie, because they're the ones most effected by the Tax and Spend policies that the Tea Party wants to end. And if the people "I talk to,.. everyday", are your fellow New Yorkers, you do realize Paulie, that New York is a deep blue, Liberal Controlled, Tax and Spend Welfare State, don't you? Of course they would agree with you, they "are" you Paulie!!
True Tea Party Patriots are not part of your OWS movement Paulie, so stating that, "people in the movement can't stand the Tea Party movement anymore", is more of you talking to yourself again. The Tea Party and OWS are the exact opposite movements, one wants smaller Government, the other wants bigger Government. One is made up with law abiding Citizens, the other is, well you Paulie!! One wants to save our Country, the other wants to create a Socialist Government, which wouldn't be our Country (or as I like to call it, Communism).
"You blew it"!! What does that mean, Paulie? If you mean the dictionary definition, that would be, "to spend recklessly"? The Tea Party is against reckless spending, Paulie, so that doesn't make any sense!! If you meant, "completely bungled", well I'd have to point to the 2010 election results to prove you wrong, we didn't blow or bungle anything Paulie, we're only just beginning!!
The other part of your statement, about guns and giving the 1% tax breaks, well seriously, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. If you meant we support gun rights, well I guess you're right, that's in the Constitution (I don't own a gun myself, I just don't care for them). But the giving the 1% tax breaks, I'm assuming you mean, that we're against raising taxes on anybody because the Government doesn't need to get more money, it needs to get less money. Well than I guess you're right!!
Our chance has not ended Paulie as you stated, despite the fact that you probably believe that it has, but you'd be wrong!! So we will see you at the ballot box in November 2012, and we'll see who's organized, and who isn't. Unless of course, you Folks are going to bring your Thugs to try to stop us from voting, which wouldn't surprise me in the least. Leftist hate free and fair elections!! So good luck with that!!
And as to your last point, "Good Bye", is that supposed to be some sort of threat? Once again, this doesn't come as a shock from a Leftist Commie!! That's the only trick you Commies know, violence!! Or maybe, you just meant I'm not invited back here again, and once again, I have to say, not much of a surprise there either. Leftist love shutting down dissent, ask the 100 million the Communist killed in the last 100 years. Oh, I'm sorry, you can't!! Because they're dead!! Or maybe I'm just being too cynical again (I'm known to do that), and you just meant "Good Bye", as in see you later. But even still, this doesn't make sense Paulie, because Good Bye, is just one word, not two. So Goodbye Paulie, until we meet again!!
I wasn't talking about the state of New York. The TEA party hasn't infected this state. I was talking more of the states in the Tri-State area. They is an election coming up on Tuesday, November 8th, local elections. I see you pointed to next year, lol, local communities mean nothing to you I suppose. That's about par for the course with TEA party republicans. Happy to read that actually, will make it easier for us in 2012 as well as this year. You blew it means mainstream people know the TEA party is full of shit, you fooled them at first but that is over now.
In Times Square I stood next to TEA party members as they protested with OWS with me. So that's what I meant when I said members of your own party can't stand their own party, they have given up hope as they watch the TEA party turn Washington into gridlock central. So we are not as exactly opposite as you think, dopey.
To the rest of your boring diatribe I won't reply to because you are an imbecile. Good Day.
Paul, the Tea Party isn't a "Party"....despite the fact that a fake "Tea Party" candidate tried by getting on a ballot somewhere in 2010 to make America "think" there was an actual "Party" called the "Tea Party"....
Yes, there are elections coming up on November 8th 2011, but which ones are you specifically claiming will point out the failure of the "Tea Party"? To my knowledge, there is no "Tea Party" candidate on any ballots are there? They might be those candidates who stand for things the Tea Party can also stand behind and for and vote for and so on....but no actual "candidate" exists....
Are you talking about how much power the Unions have put behind Ohio's election on that day? Well, you might be right there that the Unions will succeed in fooling people into voting for their own taxes to go up in order to ensure that the local public sector unions get to keep THEIR free health care and THEIR free pensions.....we'll see.
I guess you're right it isn't an official party. But everybody refers to it as that. So yeah you aren't going to see a candidate on the ballot from a party that doesn't exist. However, is isn't hard to tell who the Tea party candidates are.
Good Day, this time? Hmmm, yeah, that's better!! And you spelled it correctly too, very good Paulie!! Although, it doesn't sound as threatening as your earlier Good Bye did (goodbye)!!
Paulie, so you're not occupying Wall Street then, you're just visiting occupying? And I thought you were the real deal!! Too bad!!
So you said, "they is an election coming up on Tuesday", I'm assuming you meant "there is"? That was a typo, I'm assuming? I hope so, otherwise you calling me an imbecile kind of sounds a little bit silly coming from a person who can't even spell, don't you think? Hey, it happens to the best of us, typos that is!! I know there's an Election this November Paulie (actually, we have Elections "every" November)!! Personally, I've been waiting for this Election day ever since last year's triumphant victory, even more so than my Birthday, or Christmas!! I'll be voting in my local elections here, but these Elections are not lost causes like Liberal New England Elections are, you see Paulie, I'm living in a Republican dominated "Right To Work" State now, that's "not" on the verge of going broke.
The Tea Party "is" in the Tri-State area Paulie, otherwise, how do you explain New Jersey's Governor Chris Christie? Yeah, he was one of our guys too!! But the Tri-State is definitely a hard nut to crack, I'll give you that much!! I think there's something in the water, that turns everybody into a Liberal Tax and Spend moron!! You can be save though, just move away from it as I did, and after a few years you come to your senses.
So according to you, the Tea Party has lost a few members to the OWS crowd? Well that's all right by me Paulie, because if they switched allegiance that fast, then they never really were one of us to begin with. They were phonies, and they'll turn on you too, when the next movement rolls into town. So you can have 'em!!
Goodbye, Good Day, you're still going to lose big on Election Day!! Oh yeah, one more thing Paulie, we are definitely the exact opposites, I'm a Patriot, and you're a Parasite!!;^)
If I wanted to be a condescending moron, I'd type: So you say "You can be save though", I'm assuming you meant "safe though" or or "saved though"? That was a typo I am assuming? (insert shit eating grin look here like you just solved all the worlds problems in one fell swoop) I hope so otherwise you implying that ..... So you say "after a few years you come to your" I assume you mean "you'll" or "you will"? and blah blah blah. But I'm not a condescending moron so I won't.
I am not calling you an imbecile because of any typos you may make. You just come off as a ignorant asshole. Imbecile was a nice way of saying that. I wrote that the Tea party wasn't in the state on NY. I know you morons are in NJ, hence the Tri-state comment. Learn to read. You exclaim with joy like you know the Tea party is in NJ and nobody else does. I didn't say they weren't. You are an imbecile.
Paulie: You got it all wrong. I was saying, "you can be save(d) though", which is just missing a D, unlike your Good Bye, which was making one word into two words. A bit of a difference, huh? My next "so called" mistake, is no mistake at all, you come to your senses, after being away from New York, no mistake at all, it's true (shitty grin on my face now). You see, I just solved all the Worlds' problems in one "fatal" swoop!! Err, strike that!! I just solved all the Worlds' problems in one "fell" swoop (shitty grin on my face once again!!).
Now I'm not calling you a imbecile here either Paulie (although you probably are one seeing that you can't even use the proper words to argue with), because that only means stupid, and I think you're a lot worse than that!! You're a thief, a collectivist, a bolshevik, a marxist, and a commie red bastard!! How's that?
And I'm ignorant you say? Me? Please!! I'm a graduate of the New York State School system, not the NYC School system!! At least I don't believe in Communism like the OWS crowd appears to believe in (and maybe you too Paulie?), the same ideology that's turned millions of People into real slaves in the last 100 years, unlike Capitalism, that allows People to break free of their station in life. And you call me ignorant, and an imbecile? Whatever!!
Now asshole? Yep, I'll admit to that one!! You got me there Paulie!! I am an asshole, and proud of it too!! I'm an asshole for joining the Army, and jumping out of planes to help protect my fellow Americans from terrorism, just to figure out, that a lot of Americans don't want to be Americans anymore, nor do they want America protected!! Yep, I'm an asshole!! An asshole for serving three tours in Iraq in the last 8 years, trying to guard a mostly ungrateful Nation. You got me there Paulie!!
You (sic) are an imbecile too Paulie!! But you make me laugh!! So I like you, even though you're a Commie Red bastard, who isn't worth defending!!
P.S. The Tea Party's in New York too, fuck-head, and given enough time, we'll win there too!!
you are a very strange troll, my friend.
LMAO sure you will, good luck with that one. You overestimate the appeal of an wannabe party like the Tea party in New York. You're reaching for the stars with that one. Well, I'll end this by agreeing with you for once. We both agree, rightfully so, that you are an asshole.
I like you . . .
Don't have much but will send what I can.
A bit of sleet and slush is one thing, but once its -20 and 2+ feet of snow, this operation is going to shut down pretty quick. All the city has to do is wait it out like another month tops.
if you think minus degrees and snow are gonna stop this movement, which is just growing and growing nationwide and globally every day, youre delusional
don't donate anything to this cause. It's fraud because they censor posts and certain politicians names.
Whoever is receiving the money needs to go under the microscope and I hope they get arrested for fraud.
At first I was in favor of this but not anymore. Open your eyes you're being scammed and played
People that want goals and agendas are the establishment. They want then because they've been destroying people's goals and agendas for years. the longer we stay silent and grow, the more freaked out they'll get, the more mistakes they'll make. they will end up frightening themselves into giving the store away. Hang tight, As scary as it seems, they are more afraid, have more to lose(they think) What we have, cannot be lost or taken away. Everyone knows why they are there, that is a lot. Way more than they have.
That sounds like a neato keen plan, but it's strikingly naive. OWS is in a propaganda war, and they are losing miserably. In three weeks they will be forgotten.
You wish. This is the Valley Forge moment. They only have to survive the winter. Check your list of memes if they do, are they deductions or inductions? As they say, are there boots on the ground to back them up? This is now widespread sentiment. As politics is emotional, not financial, the question about naivete is pending.
Here comes Santa Claus. Here comes Santa Claus, right down Santa Clause Lane.
don't you have a budget for these materials?
Haha. Go get a job and buy your own supplies, you pathetic fucks.
Welcome to reality kiddies. Many people who donated are now asking where their money went. Does the "anarchist philosophy" have a method to deal with this problem? I doubt it. Why do you need clothes? Don't you own any of your own? You already live in/near NYC for cripes sake!
How long must the rest of us allow you to monopolize our public space, I wonder? You have had your turn, what about mine? Perhaps you can form one of your assemblies to apportion out the space to the American Nazi party, the Klan, the Tea Party (hey, they want their money back for paying for actual permits for their protests!!), etc.
Let us know . . .
Come on out dude! We are your neighbors and we welcome you to come and protest against us with your friends. The space is yours too.
Egyptian revolutionaries - who just successfully ousted a dictator! - see value in the Occupy protests. Some of them have traveled to OWS, encouraging and inspiring the Occupiers, while others have marched in solidarity from Tahrir Square. I believe that the actions of these Egyptians speaks louder than anybody else's words.
non sequitor
Perhaps God died and left you as Master of the Universe - but other people are missing it?
I can't follow you, son. Note that I asked some specific questions, and your replies were about some vague, non-related issues. Is it that the Egyptians are going to keep track of your donations? Is it that you will allocate the Klan to occupy Tahrir Square? Make yourself clear . . .
As for being Master of the Universe - nope, just master of my own thoughts. Try starting with that.
You don't need me to answer your questions. Good wishes.
Could you be anymore condescending? Really! What a douche bag fuck off!
Way to ignore every question that I posed.
I can be much more condescending than that, if you wish. However, your adolescent rant has convinced me that you are not worth the creative effort on my part.
How to keep warm out there. Here is a nice recipe for gourmet hot toddies. Enjoy!
4 cups apple cider 1 cup cranberry juice cocktail 1/2 cup tequila 1/4 cup Triple Sec or other orange-flavored liqueur
Garnish: lime slices
Preparation
In a saucepan heat cider and cranberry juice cocktail just until hot (do not let boil) and remove from heat. Stir in tequila and liqueur. Serve toddies in mugs, garnished with lime slices. Yummy and warm!
that is an absurdly expensive list of items for one drink. aren't most of the people out there in massive debt with no job? generic brand cocoa. don't be a hypocrite.
Well, I have no debt. And believe it or not, 30% of homwowners have no mortgage.
I doubt that the drinks would cost more than $12 to serve 6. Sort of like the cost of a Starbucks I suppose but I don,t drink coffee because it is harvested with slave labor.
ENjoy those toddies!
Pretty much as soon as I read this, I realized you're just one of the hipsters who wants to look cool in a crowd.
You have a nice day now
All goods can be purchased at Macy's. Or, you could weave hats, scarves, sweaters, and long johns from fallen leaves and hemp.
People on a budget do not shop at Macy's. Target, K Mart, Family Dollar, 99 Cent and Dollar Stores, even thrift shops (that sell gently used clothing etc.) can provide stuff. So could garage sales, and govt. surplus is a place to buy lots of stuff in bulk. The weather will be in the 50's by Monday, this was just one freak storm, but the people in the park need to prepare for winter if they plan to continue living in the park. It doesn't usually get really cold here till the end of January and February and March are the peak cold, snow months. The city does have laws when the temps drop below a certain point that they can order people who are living outside (ie. homeless) to go to shelters because they can freeze to death. It is not at that point right now; but the future must be planned for.
Why are you LIVING in a PARK? Why dont you do something? If you are not looking for a job you will not GET a job. There are plenty of jobs available for the right people. I hire people where I work, if you play bongos all day and sleep in the park I will NOT hire you!
The people in the park are activists, they assemble, organize, then hold meetings and rallies, that's what activists do. They do not have traditional jobs. I am not an activist.
I would suggest buying at WalMart. Many stores are taking applications for employment as well. Oh, but wait. Wal Mart is "evil." Target is good I guess.
The OWS crowd is truly delusional. A few hundred or thousand freaks actually believe they represent 99% of the population. Guess what? 44% of families owned mutual funds in 2010 and I'll bet many more would like to. Most people want to make money, and most believe in capitalism.
When we finally depose the current Bozo in Chief (Barack -- look what Hope and Change has wrought) we will have a new era of American prosperity Do away with his threats of higher taxes on the productive, eliminate capital gains taxes, and there will be great opportunity for all.
I wish the bottom 50% would be willing to pay a little something in the form of taxes to keep up Obama's war in Afghanistan and to keep the terrorists at Gitmo supplied with prayer blankets and Korans.
Looks like this will be a very cold winter. Enjoy. I know I will.
What do you mean, you wish the bottom 50% would be willing to pay a little something in the form of taxes? You ignorant son of a bitch. New Yorkers earning between 33,000 and $56,000 pay the highest combined rate of tax than any group in New York at 11.6%, those earning over $95,000 pay just 10.7%, earning over $633,000 pay just 8.4%. So STFU, we pay the most taxes of anybody in the state. Try to educate yourself before you open your mouth and look like a total asshole to anybody who knows anything about the truth.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36226444/ns/business-personal_finance/t/half-us-pays-no-federal-income-tax/
I hate Walmart and Target because the people who shop there are disgusting, but the prices are low, so for bulk items OWS may have to get into the trenches.
We can't solve the country's problems in one fell swoop, and be aware that NYC is on the verge of bankruptcy, so there probably aren't many jobs to help supply the tax base you are looking for.
http://www.wealthwire.com/news/headlines/2045?r=1
You mean you're going to renounce your convictions and shop at Walmart and Target because they are cheap and have readily available products? Now, that's funny.
PS If you DO want cold weather camping gear Walmart is NOT the place to buy it. They don't call it 3 season (if you're lucky) for nothing. To get something warm and that will last for months you'll have to spend real money.
Cabelas and the like has what you want, although I'm still having a hard time equating camping with the middle of NYC, but if the homeless guys can survive up there in the winter, so can you.
Sometimes I digress for financial reasons for a good sale item.
I didn't shop at Walmart and certain other big box stores for years for various reasons, but in the end, that's where I go now. I decided I'm not paying MORE for the same imported stuff I can get elsewhere.
Nowadays for most stuff, I can shop around online for the best deal, or buy used from various places if it's something fairly common.
I price shop also. I support a Dominican supermarket, even though I am not Spanish, I don't even speak it. The foods are the same as in my neighborhood, but they cost less. I like it that the store is smaller, I can get in and out in 10 minutes with whatever I need. It is good quality food.
We got most of the produce we eat here that we don't/can't grow or out of season from a variety of farm stands or flea markets. About the same price as a retail store but lots fresher.
Meat, if we have the time/money we can get off the farm (half a beef or whatever), fresh eggs and milk, ect... but I'm kinda in the sticks but close to a small city that has a pretty good selection of food. We can still save some money and have superior food most of the time.
Then again, if someplace like Walmart has a sale on chicken we'll get a bunch and stick it in the freezer. Or the local grocery store. Big on coupons too.
This time of year, if you watch Craigs List (and like online classifieds, even in the local paper) you can find camping gear cheap. Between now and Christmas is when I normally get most of mine, but I like to winter camp too, most people don't, but it don't get super cold here. Below 20 on occasion but usually not that cold, and never for long.
I have gotten some great stuff online from the Sportsman's Guide. They are out of Minnesota. I got boots, gloves. They have camping and hunting clothes etc. Good products, good prices, nice people working there in customer service.
I've ordered from them for years, and have been in their 'club' for about as long as they're had one, lol. Kinda have to watch what you get though, they sell junk like everbody else.
The catalogs stay in my bathroom.
BUY the sleeping bags and long underwear. I'm pretty sure that's what people donated money for!
STAND, STAY, UNITE and FIGHT!!!!!!!!!!! Freedom is worth fighting for....
"I Walmart and Target because the people who shop there are disgusting"
That's funny. What makes them disgusting? That they are lower income, value conscious, have low levels of consciousness raising, or all of the above?
Loud, rude, inconsiderate, inpatient, selfish. It's behavioral. Yelling on their cell phones, yelling at their kids, complaining about the lines moving too slow, etc. etc. It's the demeanor.
"Loud, rude, inconsiderate, inpatient, selfish."
That pretty much sums up the OWS crowd, and 31% support violent action. Very distateful.
That has not been my perception of them from what I have seen. They have made every attempt to try to include anyone who wants to get involved, go to the meetings, join a group, give your input. The process of how things get done is what people do not comprehend. They are working by consensus, which is different than a group that has a small group of leaders. A consensus seems to have more steps in discussions and moving the ideas along than a direct council. People are used to the 'this is my idea, do people vote for it or not' way of doing things, but consensus has more negotiability in it, before any final decision on it.
That's fine when you're dealing with a relatively small group, but when you have a lot of issues on the table that concern a lot of people (say, the entire population of the USA), there is no way that the consensus model will work. If everyone is supposed to have a say and anyone can "veto" the issue on the table for any reason (or no reason), no consensus can be reached. And how would so many people be able to have a voice, be included? How can you be sure everyone has been informed of the issue and had a chance to respond? And if there's a block and you can't get past it, what are the alternate solutions if it is an important issue? Do you just table it and move on to the next thing or do you just keep on with that issue until a consensus can be reached, no mater how long it takes? With the amount of issues that face the country, I think the consensus model can and will create a horrible backlog of issues that are incredibly important and can in no way be resolved in a reasonable amount of time. Look how divided the country is now over just some of the issues we face. The consensus model assumes that everyone wants to get along and can be persuaded to give a 'yes' or 'no' vote. I just don't think that's true. To me it would seem better to say "this is my idea" and give people a set amount of time to make their opinion heard, and then put the issue to a vote, going with an 80% majority vote win. I mean, I think even getting an 80% majority would be hard to get when you are dealing with the sheer amount of people in the country who live in various areas and have specific concerns and are influenced by a variety of sources, including upbringing, religious faith, schooling, political ideals among other things. How do you propose this method would work when applied to the entire population of the USA? How do you make sure everyone who wants to be heard is heard? And if you're going to suggest smaller GA type groups across America where a person selected from the group would meet with other selected members of other GA groups who will them meet and come to a consensus, how is that much different from the representative type government we already have? Even if you assume money is separated from politics, there still are a lot of people who will never agree on a specific topic, say one like abortion. At some point you're going to have to choose people to represent smaller groups of people, and you will have to decide- is this issue so important that we can devote so much time to it that everyone will agree either in the positive or negative or should we go with a majority rule and move on? IMHO, the consensus model will never work on a large scale.
I am really not the one who can adequately answer the points you brought up, because I have no experience in policy implementations by consensus. Each one of your questions raises very valid concerns. I know there have been some politicians who say that people have to be involved within their towns, there have to be town hall meetings for issues that effect the nation, people must be more directly involved or else lose having a say in their govt. Most people do not know what goes on in Washington because they have no time to find out what they are doing there. They get their info. from the news or the politicians re-election campaign office. They don't follow how they voted the rest of the time on the issues that came up for vote in Congress. People don't have the time, govt. is too big, with too many committees that don't get much done. Most people cannot even get a real response from their Congressperson, they get some automated note after their question has been categorized into one area, and they will tell you what they have done, or that they are working on it. Only two senators read the Patriot Act (all 900 and some odd pages of it) before the vote was taken on it. This is how things are being run. The consensus may be the beginning of people getting directly involved, but all the other issues you brought up raise questions of viability that need to be answered.
I think you are right- on another part of the forum I posed the question: how many of us can say that we have either written to/called/participated in a town hall meeting for your congressman or senator? I think you can work backwards from here and say, how many of us can say we have participated in even our local political process- I know is this world, time is precious, and frankly I'm ashamed to say I have never even been to a PTA meeting in my son's school district. My opinion on the whole mater is that none of us (or few of us) are really involved in the political process in any real way aside from voting in presidential elections, which to my mind are the ones that have the least meaning, because a presidential candidate can promise the world but he needs the cooperation of the congress to deliver those promises. And in the end, it's mostly the president that gets blamed or lauded depending on how well things were going while he was in office. I think if each person made a concerted effort into researching their representatives, finding out where they really stand on the issues and how that resonates with how you feel, it would go really far in understanding how the political process works- I mean I think many have a general understanding of how it works, but as specifically applied to them and their lives. Even so, I think the most important issue is getting money out of politics. There are so many people in this country that are very smart and have really good ideas but no money to run for office. If they can't get their message out there and be heard, they have zero chance of getting elected to any office. If there was reform of campaign finance and removal of corporate personhood and severe restriction if not a complete ban on lobbying any member running for or holding political office by a large group- a corporation or union, for example, you might see the current political landscape really change. I still think we can work within the system to effect change, it is a matter of wanting to and being dedicated to it. If we can not even attempt this because we are too busy or stressed or can't be bothered, however will we handle the revolution, should it come? Just some thoughts. I thank you for the polite exchange and wish you well. :)
You have good points. We have to get the money out of politics, level the playing field. Ban the lobbyists and PAC money. Get the media to donate equal time without advertising and sponsorship of debates.
Make them run on the issues, and make them submit a plan of action with specific details on initiatives they would write and take if elected.
All we get now is rhetoric, no real plans behind it. Nobody does their homework, has any numbers other than recent polls or statistics with which they try to prove their points.
We need some businessmen in Washington, people who know how to run a business, because all the agencies are businesses. We have politicians who have administrator level people report to them, and the administrators have their assistants running reports for them that they submit at their meetings. They all pass the buck to someone under them to tell them what is going on. We need balanced budgets, fiscal oversight, quality assurance and waste reduction. Everyone who sells things to the govt. knows, charge them whatever, they will pay it. My former Congressman found out Washington was paying $35 for "nail insertion devices" which in layman's terms are called hammers. They sold for a lot less money even then, but Washington kept paying that inflated price because nobody questioned it.
We need fiscally responsible government run by successful businessmen and industry leaders who can temper the bottom line with compassion and humanity and not divide the country on the basis of income the way it is now. We don't need revolution, we need evolution.
P.S. I thank you also for your introspection and willingness to admit, we've all expected these things were being taken care of, but now face the reality that we must be more involved to whatever extent we can be to bring about the change we need. Good night and have pleasant dreams.
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