Forum Post: Not For or Against
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 20, 2011, 8:26 a.m. EST by FreedomToChoose
(15)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
i have a hard time supporting you because you have no definitive cause. you say you are for the people, but that's kind of hard to believe. i agree with some of what you are saying, i agree with how you want everyone to be heard, props to you for peaceful assembly (when it actually is peaceful), but you are choosing to speak for me and disrupting the lives of hard working Americans. these people that are 'working for the 1%' are still working class people who have families to support as well. i am not the 1%, nor am i the 99%. i am not republican, nor democrat.
i do not agree with the greed and corruption in this country, but the choices i made in life put me where i am today. i take responsibility for my actions and my decisions. i work hard for my money. i manage my money so i'm not in debt and i choose to help those i want to. i do not support what this government, nor what the financial corps are doing, but we the people have allowed this country to get out of hand because we have allowed the government to become what it is today. this country was founded as a Republic, not a democracy, which i think some people have a hard time separating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayOBBWUR3ik
i rather be on the government's doorstep protesting that the government allow the people to have freedom of choice and stay out of my business. to stop implementing laws that they themselves don't even follow. what rights do i have if they keep getting taken away and i can't make any decisions for myself about the way i live?! i am a hard working American who has earned my money and should have the right to choose to do what i will with it, how i live and who i help.
POWER = CONTROL = RUIN
i agree something needs to be done. i agree with making yourselves be heard, but define your cause, do it without disrupting the lives of hard working Americans and you will probably gain more support.
All important change in history has been ugly and "disruptive". Those who agree with the "need for something to be done", but fear the loss of their own security or peaceful way of life often appear as dissenters. They are willing to "settle" for what they know is not right, rather than join the fight in SOME way. Those default dissenters make the move toward change so much harder. It creates two opponents for the courageous ones to deal with. Sad.
The more you disrupt the lives of the "99%" as they go about their daily business, the less support from these people you will get. You need hearts and minds. You've protested, camped out, this has sparked the conversation, it's good. People are talking about things that they've known are wrong and they are talking about possible solutions. But when you disrupt the streets, subways, busses and the bridges, make it difficult for people to get to work, perhaps putting their jobs in jeopardy, all they are going to do is get really angry with you and stop listening, even if what you say is valid. An example I gave in another post: When my son was in daycare/preschool, their hours were 6-6. If you were late on pick up, it was $1 extra per minute late (on top of the exorbitant rate already charged). If you hit the 15 minute mark, the police were called and child services became involved. This effects real people in a seriously bad way. Same kind of thing when you're late for your job for whatever reason. Your boss doesn't care why you're late, s/he just cares that you were not responsible enough to adjust your schedule to be on time, even if you did and were still delayed because of the current OWS tactics. The 99%, or at least a lot of them, are living paycheck to paycheck, just barely getting by. It's not about fearing their own security or peaceful way of life, it's about the real responsibilities these people have. It's not because they don't want to work for change, it's more about each to their own abilities and how they think they should participate in the change. The "99%" is a catchy slogan, but you have to remember, not everyone agrees that the way OWS is going about things is the right way to go. Maybe some think the system is completely broken and can not be fixed, others still have hope that changes can be made by working within the system. I think it's rather arrogant to think OWS way is the only way and if you're not behind that, get ready to be steamrolled, 99% or no. Hearts and minds! A lot of people agree- corporate personhood is bad, big banks bailed out by taxpayers while still getting obscene bonuses is wrong. Buying politicians is wrong. We're in agreement! You've got our attention, now lead the way, show us what the solutions are. Continual protesting without progressing to the next step (deciding on a concrete plan of action) means nothing. OWS must think about how their tactics are going to effect the average jane/joe and do everything possible to make their lives easier, not harder. Otherwise you're just a nuisance to them and you'll make enemies, not allies, and I don't think that's what the movement wants.
Maybe the way they should show (in their own way) that they agree that changes MUST be made, IS to leave the house earlier, take an alternate route, or change daycare facilities. It's not just about conversation. If the action stops, the conversation was a waste of time. Conversations have been going on for years, without change. If people get angry and stop listening because they are inconvenienced, then they weren't really listening to begin with. They are content to tolerate the status quo. I DO AGREE that it needs to progress to the next step. But, like someone said on another post, right now it's like 10,000 people trying to decide on ordering pizza. It takes time to let all of them know what the options are. Hopefully, very soon, the pizza will be ordered.
Do you have kids? Some people can't afford to switch daycare at the drop of a hat to convenience you. Even if a person changes route or leaves earlier, who knows if they will still be able to be to work on time? What if OWS decides a flash mob is the way to go and I'm not up to speed on what you all are doing on that particular day? The big thing I hear around this forum and other places from the occupiers is that "we're doing this for you!" If you are trying to help me, you will do your best not to inconvenience me as I am not part of the 1%. Protesting will only take you so far. It's time for this movement to get organized and do something other than crowd the streets. If regular people get angry and stop listening to you (as in OWS) it doesn't mean they won't pursue other avenues of change, they will just write OWS off as a failed experiment. Don't make the mistake in thinking this movement is all there is, people have a lot of different ideas, and maybe the pizza will be ordered without your input. Just because the average person doesn't want their life inconvenienced any more than it has to be doesn't mean they don't support change, don't want to be part of the solution. All I am saying is that if you continually make my life more difficult, the less inclined I am to support what you think is the path to freedom. I'm not trying to be a jerk about it, but you must not make the mistake in thinking that everyone in the 99% thinks about things the way OWS does. People are ripe for change, if your movement wants to lead that change, you have to consider the people who you claim to represent as much as possible. Many want to see this movement succeed, but in my opinion, it's time to stop screaming about it and get down to the real business of setting a firm agenda, even if it is one or two things to start with, and go from there. Change does not happen overnight, and I don't think Ma and Pa Middle America support a full on revolution at this point. Many people think change can still be made within the system- maybe they're wrong, maybe they're right, time will tell. I'm just giving my opinion as an average jane who is trying to get by in a world where that seems tougher and tougher by the day. Consider us and we'll consider you- respect is a two way street.
nicely put. to piggy back a bit. just b/c i'm not in the middle of traffic doesn't mean i'm not 'fighting' in my own way. if i don't like the fact that, for example, the cable companies charge too much, then i don't get cable. i don't support what they are doing so i won't contribute. imo, if everyone stopped contributing then how can it flourish. there are others ways to 'fight.'
Exactly. OWS has started something good, but that doesn't mean it's the only game in town. There are definitely other ways to fight. :)
When people are only concerned about their own convenience, it creates apathy. To expect that people will "pursue other avenues of change" without the protesters is naive. Case in point...Millions of people elected Obama because he promised change, in response to the "conversations" that were building at the time. Those same millions, complacent in their day-to-day "we did our bit, now we can get back to our lives" philosophy, did not vote in the 2010 mid-term elections. We've seen how that worked. The change that people voted for in 2008 has backfired with the Republican/Tea Party/Rightwing fanatics' obstructionism and agenda to undo anything pro-people. There was no pendulum swing in that election as a reaction to Obama actions; less than half the people who voted in 2008 voted in 2010. The less than half that did vote were the same less than half that lost in 2008, because their conversations were still promoting action. Do you really think the people on the front lines of the protests care about their own convenience? Sure, some are there because they are extremists who like this sort of thing, and some are there for their 15 minutes, but MANY, MANY, MANY of them sacrifice SO MUCH so that you don't have to; so you can go on with life as usual, albeit a bit altered. Nothing is done without effort. Some give more than others, but everyone will be affected by those efforts. The world will continue to get tougher and tougher by the day unless those efforts continue and grow.
I think people are realizing that they have to become more involved with the political process, that they can not just vote in the presidential election and things will be fine until next time. The Tea Party showed us that. But I don't happen to think that these OWS protesters are the new Superstars of America or the new Founding Fathers. There are other avenues to change- Tea Party showed us that as well, not that I'm happy about it. And yes, I do think a lot of these protesters are doing it because it's 'the thing to do'- not all, but a lot of them. Sure they want change, many of us do. If people want to sleep in a park when they don't have to, want to get arrested while protesting when they don't have to, think that their way, their rights, without any regard to time, place and venue trump the rights of other people who are just trying to get along, well, yes, even people who agree with the general ideals of OWS are going to get tired of being inconvenienced by people who are voluntarily choosing to inconvenience themselves when they don't really have to. More and more I read, from regular people who supported OWS from the start are backing away from the movement, I now often read "I'm part of the 99% and you don't represent me."I was all in for OWS when it got started, but I haven't really seen anything other than disorganization and mayhem coming out of this movement thus far. I don't buy the whole 'horizontal and leaderless' thing at all. You guys need strong leaders who know what they are doing, leaders who can direct the movement forward. Right now it appears that OWS has no idea what they are doing aside from protesting. Two months of protesting, okay, we get the idea, we are reved up and ready for the next step. You're right- nothing is done without effort, but we need to direct our effort in the correct place. We know Wall Street is a big part of the problem, but so is Washington, and I think it's more than time to start focusing some effort there. Living in NYC is complicated enough as it is, it's stressful to live there and commute from the Burroughs, get to work, get to school, get our kids to school. OWS can't expect everything in the city to come to a full stop just because they feel their right to assemble and speak is more important than everyone else's life and rights for however long they feel like it. We're already getting tired of it. Get it together or you will lose support, start respecting what other members of the "99%" are saying too. I don't really care if you disagree with me or not, time will tell if you're right or I'm right or neither of us is right. I hope the movement succeeds, but I don't really feel they will if they stick to the same tactics they are using now. Good luck, and we'll see what happens.
"All important change in history has been ugly and "disruptive"." - toomuch. i do agree, but to do it to the very people you claim you are trying to help (the 99%), doesn't that defeat the purpose? i have joined the fight, but i do it in my way, without preventing my fellow man from getting to work and enjoying the public parks.
Glad you joined the fight. Would you have if not for the efforts of those enduring the ugliness? Would anyone have found the courage to speak out (in their own way) if they had not led the way? It is not by choice that some of the 99% are adversely affected. It is a necessary consequence in order that those who have not yet found their voice know they are not alone.
yes, i've been fighting my own fight since way before this movement and i will continue to do so. i do hope change occurs b/c America is definitely headed for disaster....it's not quite there, yet.
agreed. :)
You have failed to take into consideration those who genuinely believe peaceful dissent is not only possible but actually the most constructive course of action which will lead to the best outcome. Those people you lump into your "fearful" group who are willing to "settle," and that is not an accurate description.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
i've only watched the first 10min, but it does seem interesting. i do look forward to watching in the rest. always open to learning something, whether i agree or disagree. thanks
These clowns don't care about Americans, the 99% or anything having to do with American values. Their only agenda is the downfall of the United States as a super power, the dismantling of our Constitution, and the globalization and world-wide redistribution of all our wealth. They only use the most sensible grievances as a way of building sympathy from those too stupid to understand what's really going on here. It's not going to end well for the USA if their revolution is successful.
i do not wish to attack, i only wish to discuss. i do not agree with everything they are doing, but let them have their say. we are all entitled and we all may learn something....in whatever way that may be.
MisguidedYouth2 and FreedomToChoose are both repelicans.
The end of the op reflects the repelican value of smaller government - which on examination means practically no government at all, and that in turn will result in poisoning the air we breath, the water we drink.
If you think deregulation really is the answer, then I insist, examine the Nigerian Delta, where they have experienced the equivalent of one BP oil spill every single year FOR EACH OF THE LAST 50 YEARS.
And then you tell me how, exactly, we are to protect our own homes, and safeguard our children's future, in an absence of regulation?
I know who the enemy of the Occupy Movement is.
.
.
Forum Post: Memo spells out plan to undermine Occupy Wall Street
Posted 43 minutes ago on Nov. 19, 2011, 1:09 p.m. EST by madeinusa This content is user submitted and not an official statement
By Jonathan Larsen and Ken Olshansky, MSNBC TV
http://occupywallst.org/forum/memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-stre/
please do not assume me to be what you think i am and please do not go to extremes. government is a necessity, but no form a government will ever be the end all be all. unless we learn to fully love ourselves we will not be able to fully love others, therefore, we will need to be keep under some sort of law. watch the video from the link in my post.
I'm on dial-up.
So - you are clearly stating that you are not a repelican?
I try not to make assumptions - but I thought it was clear from your post that you are a deregulationist.
If you are that's fine. I don't have a whole lot of respect for that position - but hey. By all means. Let us examine the issue in detail -
perhaps I might be persuaded . . .
i do not consider myself any label from a political stand point. i do not entirely believe in one political, philosophical, or spiritual view point. i believe in the things i believe and my mind is open for discussion. there are many things i agree and disagree with, but i can only control what i do, not anyone else.
i do think there is too much government, or, maybe i should say too much government power....hmm, i will have to think about that some more. i believe that we need government and law to help the people. this country was founded as a Republic, not a democracy. the Constitution and Declaration were meant for the people, which is supposed to limit government power.
if i work hard for my money and i save and save, i should have the right to do with it what i will regardless if other people agree or disagree. do i agree with people making money by taking advantage...no. i personal would not be able to make money that way, but i would have to look at why i was taken advantage of. i need to make an informed decision about how i invest my money. imo, i ultimately have to take responsibility for my actions and decisions.
what rights do i have if they keep getting taken away?
What rights have been taken from you? Your right to choose whom you will marry?
Your freedom to choose if you will have children and with whom?
Your freedom to believe or to disbelieve what you will about human nature, spirituality, or God?
These are all rights the repelican party has attempted to circumvent or destroy outright.
There is no excuse.
i don't have the right to put my money where i want. i am force to pay for people on welfare. i am automatically put into a retirement fund when i start a job. my money is automatically taken out for social security and medicare. so yeah, my right to choice to contribute to these things have been taken away.
bummer.
So has your right to contribute to road repair.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for your argument. The plain fact is that the same programs you object to help promote stability in the richest nation on earth.
You don't like creating stability?
oKAY then - here is instability - it's a natural consequence of the advocacy you just put forth - advocacy that has been growing for quite some time.
And guess what?
The probability is that things are going to get a whole lot worse.
yes, i'm for stability. i not saying i would or wouldn't do these things. what i'm saying is that i'd like the choice to be able to do these things, not be forced to do them. and road repair has to do with taxes which if it goes toward what i use then by all means.
and rome flourished as a Republic, but once it became a democracy that's when things started to go wrong and eventually became an oligarchy.
Do you really think anyone (in their right mind), much less hundreds of thousands of people, would want to destroy everything? I feel sorry for you. I would hate to live in such a state of bitterness and paranoia.