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Forum Post: My gosh, this site is an embarrassment for OWS

Posted 1 year ago on March 23, 2013, 5:31 p.m. EST by littleflower (6)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

What in the world is this site? No talk of OWS issues, and full of petty infighting. After 15 min I can't stand it. Unbelievable. It's as if none of you have ever been to an OWS action.

174 Comments

174 Comments


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[-] 4 points by factsrfun (6888) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Damn your a quick study.

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[-] -1 points by highlander6 (-2) 1 year ago

What are your goals for OWS?

[-] 0 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

The main goal of OWS is to create a revolution by toppling the governments and replacing them with anarcho-syndicalism or anarcho-communism. We believe people can organize themselves. We don't need representatives. We can achieve this by using civil disobedience and direct action, much like in the Arab Springs.

[-] 3 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Serious Dichotomy Question:

1) Man can be generous, and sacrifice personal gain,... he or she can represent the highest ethics and Morals, ... he or she can act altruistically, ... he or she can act in accord with major religious tenets....

2) American Men can be very oriented to power, strength, networking, competition, covert deals, multi-level dealing, double dealing, false faces, politics, pleasing the powers that be and courting the powers for future position and future status, ....

So, in America we have Deep Seated cultural ... not only cultural conditioning for power and networking, .... but cultural Values for Power, Strength, Aggressiveness, War mindedness, Militantism, Value for Corporate Jobs and Corporate Power, Value for US Supremacy, Value for US Exceptionalism, Value for US being the Primo Military and Political Banking Power of the World.

So maybe I have laid out the problem:

Even if there is a Revolution of Thinking, a Revolution of Political Thought, a revolution of Sovereignty, A Revolution of Self Determination, a Revolution of Equal Rights and National Borders, a Revolution of Class Dissolution, a Revolution of equal education and almost free education for all, .....

In the End 40% of the USA will still believe in Aggressive Wars, Violating Foreign Sovereignty, and will believe in Violating Civil Rights of Some people ... as long as they get a career and good salary from it.

So How can You Offer a real Plan to the People to Change the US Culture?

How Do you address the Requirement for wiping US culture out of the minds of 200 Million people. ????

[-] 1 points by Iittleflower (1) 1 year ago

If we created a revolution, but only 60% of the people changed their minds, then it wouldn't really be a revolution in the first place. What you're essentially saying is that a revolution is impossible because of the engrained culture in US. I'm not sure this is true. Culture evolves. 100 years ago slavery was normal, accepted, one could say "natural" in US. You'd be hard pressed to find a US citizen who would feel it's normal to own a slave nowadays. I don't see why culture and thinking process could not be changed.

A lasting revolution is created by helping truth find it's way to the ears of the people. Truth always prevails in the end, but this takes time. Those who already know the truth can speed things up by disseminating it. The culture of individuality has destroyed US. We must come together again. One way to achieve this is to give power to the people. Start a project which permits that. For example, if you have a park in your neighborhood with broken swings, that is dirty, etc... You could pool the people in your community to put their efforts together to repair it. As they work, they will socialize. They will also learn they do not need to wait for the government for help.

I just started such a project a month ago. I live on a street of run down houses. People are not desperately poor, but they don't have enough money to keep care of their houses. Our houses are slowly rotting away because they haven't been painted in a long time. We started a street garage sale to raise some money for paint. It worked like a charm. When everyone on a street creates a yard sale it attracts attention! On the weekends, we all get together and paint the exterior of someone's house. We did 3 houses so far. We talk together, learn who are neighbors are, and share ideas to better our community. We won't stop until all the houses are accounted for. Already, one of the lady's in our group had an idea to help with gardens. She took a few nice plants from one neighbor and started transplanting them to create plants for everyone. We found old pots for free, and one of my neighbors took a trip to the country side to find good earth and cow poo for fertilizer. We are slowly fixing the whole neighborhood, but, more importantly, we are getting to know each other.

Truth spreads quickly when people talk amongst themselves, especially in circumstances where people help in other. Republicans and democrats worked hand in hand in our neighborhood. When arguing, they fight, but when helping each other it's different.

To build a nation based on cooperation and anarchy, we must start with local community projects. It's the only way, it's fun, it helps everyone in the community, it feels good. It's an all around positive action.

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

You are an Interesting Man/Woman. You seem to be doing work that all of us can admire. I doesn't matter to me your refined political ideas or convictions. You are part of the community and you add value to our USA.

The things you have learned are useful to all our citizens. There will be generations of US people that oppose giving you a voice. that is clear.

If I look at European or French Philosophical Thought, ... I find that many of our knowledge of politics comes from Europe.

The Tragedy of the USA is ... we suppress European Education and Philosophy. I get that WWII Veterans were focused against Fascism, Communism, Stalinism, and Socialism.... that can not Justifify suppression of education in the USA.

We all need Education - unless the Elite feel they can lead us, pass legislation in our name, and ...But I don't like the way that is going so far ... as it means over turning the US Constitution and many International Agreements and Treaties

[-] 0 points by Iittleflower (1) 1 year ago

Indeed, education is of extreme importance. Sadly, many people are distracted with TV, video games, and other forms of entertainment. I don't like conspiracy theories, but it seems obvious that to keep a society from creating a revolution one must keep them "happy" and distracted. Somehow, I feel that is the goal of Hollywood, Disney Land, etc... By keeping us busy, the governments can do all kinds of stuff in our backs.

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Well, It is worse than that. You probably know. Propaganda started with the Creel Commission in the USA. This established government offices to control information and to create propaganda.

We are living in a Matrix. We even recruited Nazis to work in our Government and there is no certainly where this knowledge and influence went. Germany is famous for source material for Propaganda.

Propaganda is the using of emotions to change culture and politics of a Nation. We are the victims.

Joseph Goebels is a source of primary material for Propaganda.
Adolph Hitler is a source of material for propaganda
And all of our US presidents after 1919 are sources of primary material for propaganda.

Everyone should get a class in Propaganda to be a citizen or a Mexican Immigrant

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[+] -7 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

We know you don't like conspiracy theories. We find it amusing when you insert your own and then add another puppet to fight it.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Act locally think globally.

That is exactly why upon understanding recent American revolutionaries strategy for using law against the lawless government, I shifted much of my thinking on how to create change.

Citizens working for Article V of the US Constitution have a super solid plan that does exactly what you say.

Iittleflower WROTE: 'A lasting revolution is created by helping truth find it's way to the ears of the people"

The preparatory amendment concept is absolutely reasonable, logical, and therefore lawful revolution. Because it is about constitutional intent, which controls ART5. Preparatory amendment has as its first preparation, the goal of seeing constitutional amendment that ends the abridging of free speech.

After that are 2 things which are ows demands. Campaign finance reform and securing the vote.

The strategy is simple. Everyone, I mean all of us make a simple admission of fact/truth/reality:There is no way the current system, political or otherwise is going to be able to make the needed changes.

"Current system" = political, governmental and social.

ows acted on the acceptance of that statement, obviously, but acted extraneous to law except for using their first amendment rights. Mostly what was proposed was abandoning a system, but left out legal ways to do it and create a new better one.

Good ideas such as direct democracy, but where did those people go? I tried to get them to work top end the abridging of free speech but they would not.

I do local action too, mostly design of sustainable systems, housing and related, helping people to select energy efficient methods to live rurally with; so appreciate what you and your neighborhood is doing:-)

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I applaud your efforts in making this a better world, and I wish that this forum had more people like you on it.

You are like a breath of fresh air amongst a lot of polluted air on this forum, and I am really happy to have you here. Please don't leave.

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by Iittleflower (1) 1 year ago

I have been here since the beginning and have no plans on leaving. There's a lot of work to be done. We need to create community projects. We also need to create the Bridge to the Ground so that communities can unite. Community projects are local actions, the Bridge to the Ground is the connection between communities. I work in my neighborhood painting houses, and forging community links between people of all political affiliations. You do the same in your community. The Bridge to the Ground makes it possible for us to exchange ideas, solutions, problems, etc... that we are seeing in our respective communities. That's how it's done.

Anarchy! Community! People have the power. We don't need representatives.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Ok Thrassy...you got me again.

~Odin~

[+] -6 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Red shirt guy!!!

You are a right wing shill. A puppet of a puppet. Nothing more and nothing less. The cockroach.

And at some point, you will be due for a shift change.

[-] 0 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

Lol. Yeah. You're right. I'm the right wing shill that always posts about Occupy related ideas like anarcho-syndicalism and creating community efforts so that everyone can come together instead of fighting against each other based on political affiliation.

  • GirlFriday "Hey, you right wing shill, leave Occupy this protest for the 99%! We don't want you! We don't need you!"

  • Thrasymaque "Hey, you right wing shill, i don't care about your political affiliation because we are going to work on a community project in which our political affiliations won't matter. We can help each other build a better community, and when you realize it works better than waiting for government solutions, you'll start edging towards socialism which will make the whole world a better place. Everyone is needed in this revolution! Welcome aboard. This is Occupy! For the 99%!"

[+] -5 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You aren't Thrassy. He just opened the door. You have a repeated pattern of being anti occupy. You are a puppet of a puppet and nothing more or less. A cockroach.

[-] 0 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

When have I, Thrasymaque, been anti-Occupy? Can you link to some comments or postings? All my postings are about Occupy ideas or about how to better Occupy.

Your idea of dividing people along party lines is anti-Occupy.

[+] -5 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Actually, you can run a search and do that yourself. I find it even better if we take a look at the Thras writing style and problems that we know he did. I know that you would like to ..........somehow reap whatever rewards that notoriety brings by attaching yourself to his name but, you aren't even close. You just aren't that good.

[-] 0 points by IittIeflower (0) 1 year ago

Do you mean threads like these?

I also criticized problems with Occupy, used bots to delete 911 conspiracy theories. Do you mean those?

Everything I did was for the betterment of Occupy.

If only we could stop trying to divide people along party lines with insults like right wing shill. If only we could start really being active in creating community projects that can bring everyone together no matter what their political affiliations so they can see that communities working together for the 99% always beat government initiatives aimed at the 1%. If only we could create a Bridge to the Ground so that these local communities can share their ideas, their plans, their problems, their solutions, etc...

But no, the Twinkle Team will keep attacking those who disagree by calling them trolls and right wing shills. Improvements are hard in that context. It's also very hard to bring Americans to work together when you call half of them right wing shills.

[+] -7 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Hahahahaha! You think that was his only ID? Oh, shit. I'll have to dig up the ones where he tried to say that Graeber was advocating violence.

Like I said, you aren't even close. He opened the door and you dingbats took over.

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[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I want to see that - shift change - about co-operatives. A step forward for workers/business/economy.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

It begins with changing yourself, and then the community while exposing the corrupted status quo

All systemic change starts small

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

Ah, yes, I have written about this a time or two. I suppose living the words ... or walking the walk is your point. And this is difficult in the corporate world. Could ... Could we say this is unlikely when your career and your next I-phone depend on keeping your corporate reputation and your corporate career ..... Today we probably see a generation that will "tow the line" to keep their high paying jobs in journalism or ... any industry. We all want to keep our jobs and make our house payment, increase our retirement account, and increase the education fund for our children, and pay into our health savings accounts... There are more incentives to play the game and be a corporate player .... than to embrace your humanity.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-are-boiling-frogs-what-models-do-we-have-to-fix/

Does that sound harsh. Am I the first to say this. Is this the first Country or society to embarrass corporatism? Was Italy like this in 1930s?

Is China like this today?

Is this a world Crisis ... that applies to all continents?

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I understand the overwhelming need people have to provide for themselves and their families, and hence how that makes it difficult to take part in direct actions

There are few jobs in industry, and even fewer in journalism, and when you have a generation of kids that cannot find a job anywhere near commensurate to their education while having huge loans to pay off, that spells not only disillusionment,

But it also manifests itself in a determination in the mostly young people in Occupy to see that this movement succeeds

It's more than that though. We as older folks have become surprisingly more comfortable with the corrupt status quo than they have. Many of us see a world that we must adapt to, they don't

Rather they envision a world that could be much better, and if nothing changes it will be a world where their futures do not add up

This simply is not the world they want to live in, and I support them

There are many other ways than direct actions for you to support them too if you care about the futures of your progeny as I'm sure you do

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by Middleaged (5140) 1 year ago

This is important, thanx. Appreciate your insight.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You're welcome. I take time to write thought ful, honest posts

We all share our "insight"s and knowledge here, and that has always been the best thing about this forum

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

Indeed. Small ripples added together can create big waves. It's all about creating community projects. It's about getting republicans, democrats, greens, etc... to work together on projects from which they can all benefit instead of pitting them against each other fighting for or against political policies only made to profit the rich.

Too many people here like GirlFriday, shooz, DKAtoday, etc... attack republicans with insults and name calling. They do this because they don't understand the revolution, the Occupy philosophy. They still think like democrats.

What they should realize is that you don't turn someone towards socialism with insults. You turn someone towards socialism by creating community projects that benefit them more than what the government does. When a person realizes that they can better their lives by working with the people in their community, that everyone the community benefits from this, they will join our effort.

I have been working on a community project on my street and it's making a world of change. We made a collective yard sale which attracted much attention, and we managed to raise enough money to paint a few houses. Everyone will help everyone else paint their house. At the moment, almost every house on our street hasn't been painted in a very long time and rotting is starting to set in. We just painted the house of my neighbor the other day. 50 guys coming together. We all had different political references and affiliations. It didn't stop us because we found a common objective. At the end, I asked my hardcore republican neighbor if he like our communal effort. I told him that's how anarchy and socialism work. He blushed and admitted that it was fun to do something together to help everyone in the community. Next weekend, two more houses.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Don't you think your negative comment where you single out those people is a bit hypocritical since in almost the same breath you are decrying the insults that go on here

Two of those people, and I have had profound differences in the way that we believe Occupy should move forward

And i still I am not sure after 18-19 months on here if their beliefs are from their conscience or not

Those 'two' and I have gotten nasty with each other quite a few times, and although i am not proud of my part, i will always stand firm in my belief that Occupy should not slide into the abyss of partisan politics, as I know that will be the demise of our revolution

If you are truly new here, and you are a real Occupier, you of all people should know that a good Occupier believes in the ability for a person to change, and in redemption

Your attack does not exemplify what this movement is about, but rather what we have become accustomed to for far too long

The struggle we are in is about healing the divides, and that requires giving people the chance to do so

Everything else you have said is right on target though

~Odin~

[+] -6 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You are a disgusting cockroach.

[+] -8 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Kinda being harsh on cockroaches - ain't ya?

[+] -6 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Nah....well...maybe.

[+] -8 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

I'm pretty sure that they would want nothing to do with "IT".

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (6888) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

The main issue facing OWS, like with almost everyone, is ego, take yourself for instance you seem to have been involved with OWS for some time yet only a few days ago do you come to the forum to see what the average person had to say about OWS. It is ego like that which is the biggest problem OWS faces.

BTW there are many posts about wealth inequality, I know I put most of them up.

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[+] -7 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Are we having fun yet? Come on puppet, isn't this fun?

[-] 4 points by factsrfun (6888) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

Whom is this "puppet" of which you speak?

[+] -5 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Flow like water.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 1 year ago

hehehe ... littleflower ;)

I used to call this place "The Trenches" ... the battle ground ... in the beginning this was the area that kept new-comers who wanted to hurt and the troll's out of the more productive areas ... ie

http://www.nycga.net/ http://occupywallstreet.net/ http://da.nycga.net/ and other GA sites...

now that there are no-where near as much opposition here as there was... this forum has become a good place to discuss general ideas and info... especially for those who can't participate in the occupations

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Funny to see that statement = "now that there are no-where near as much opposition here as there was"

But seriously - this site is much more peaceful and supportive of fighters for a better world then it was at this time last year - Still - that does not mean that the attackers have gone away.

[-] 0 points by highlander6 (-2) 1 year ago

Revolutions have their opponents

[-] 1 points by CyberMonk (1) 1 year ago

Unfortunately, the general organizing model on which Occupy was built does not work within our current political, economic, cultural system. The ideals are terrific but the methods of reaching those goals are misguided. You cannot go from A to Z in a single leap ... many of us are just not ready. We may want to aspire to that ideal but are not willing and/or able to make the sacrifices necessary in our own personal lives to attain those goals. The idea of a leaderless movement is a noble one and one that fits in with the type of world to which one might aspire. But the reality is that we are not ready for that to happen. Our egos get in the way, it is too easy for disrupting forces to infiltrate the organizational structure, it is difficult to get a coordinated agenda together, etc., etc.

WHAT WE NEED ARE LEADERS! Those who are in a position to make more of a sacrifice than the majority of us. Those who currently work to better their own communities and through words and, more importantly, deed, show that they are altruistic in their motives. Those who demonstrate that they can work with other leaders in a way that does not compromise their principals but can see the greater good for the whole even when they don’t totally agree with an idea. These are people who can stand up to the criticisms, innuendos, threats, rebukes of friends, family, the powerful and the media, which will surely come. Leaders who represent everything that most of our current political and corporate leaders do not. This is a tall order ... but not any more so than the aspirations of the Occupy Movement.

[-] 1 points by itsmyblood (10) 1 year ago

What do you want to talk about? Financial apocalypse? There are literally dozens and dozens of posts on inequality and money as free speech. Not sure you really get the fact that ows has become the catch all protest for progressives, liberals, and anarchists and the variety of their concerns.

[-] 2 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

Let's talk about the organization of Occupy events and protests. Isn't this a movement for the streets? We already know what the political problems are, no need to discuss them. We're not a political party. We should talk about how to use direct action and civil disobedience to pressure the government.

[-] 3 points by itsmyblood (10) 1 year ago

no what we need to do is form a political party.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Since ows will not engage legal process.

[-] 1 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

OWS is about civil disobedience to create a revolution.

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Strife, poverty and human rights abuse create revolutions. Civil disobedience is simpltly a socially disorganized objection. Disorganized because it does not use appropriate legal process.

[-] 0 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 1 year ago

You assume the legal process is organized and fair. Why?

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

If it is not, it is because of the peoples ignorance and neglect in allowing the elite to move it slowly away from what is just.

So will you give it up? Will you try and replace it with disorganized disobedience in the hopes that the elite will treat you well and relent? Do you expect the tv watchers to know what you are doing?

The legal process is compromised, but not totally corrupt. The only thing that will allow it to corrupt any further is our continued neglect.

Following the civil disobedience will be a restriction of ALL citizens rights because the tv watchers won't understand.

Free speech is abridged and that's what those proposing disobedience are trying to compensate for with spectacle.

[-] -2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

As well as supporting union actions,marches for civil rights, for low wage workers, for ending Cit United, and many other important issues.

Please show my a link of our efforts on the revolution.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

we have engaged legal process regarding foreclosures, aquitting arrested occupiers, and other issues, as well as this recent effort.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/03/01/occupy-the-sec-files-lawsuit-against-wall-street-regulators-for-failure-to-implement-the-law/

What exactly do you mean "does not engage"

[-] 3 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Ows does not engage legal process adequate to meet it's stated goals.

[-] -2 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Oh so then Occupy DOES engage the legal process now.?

Just not adequate enough in your opinion?

What more would you suggest?

[-] 4 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Inappropriate offensive legal strategy. There is no argument on that. It's a complaint session, no more.

All organizations that are popular here have inadequate strategy. Movetoamend.org has a petition with ZERO teeth, basically asking congress to undo what the scotus did for them with citizens united.

People here consider that the best.

They are afraid of the only real strategy, article V of the constitution, because some of the elite made the pretense of wanting ART5. And, most people here do not have the knowledge to understand how ART5 can work for us IF we can agree upon constitutional intent.

Occupy has already refused to discuss ART5 and the fact that we were deprived of it illegally for 100 years means nothing. In fact right before the federal reserve was started the states tried to stop it with ART5 but congress refused to follow the law.

Gee, critical thinking might lead one to suspect there was a reason for that related to ART 5.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

"Occupy has already refused to discuss ART5 . . ."

That's not 100% true, since "Occupy" isn't a single entity. ART5 has been discussed here on and off since the early days. But you have a few people on this site that lack critical thinking skills, so as soon as they heard ALEC got behind it, they backed off, not realizing that was the reason ALEC said that to begin with.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Not one person at ows would stand to make ART5 a demand at the general assembly. They discussed it privately and decided it was unacceptable in their society,

That group is completely controlled by social fears. Socialism was taught in universities and knowledge of the constitution was not. The infiltrators of the gov used social infiltrations to make existing, binding, historical social contracts supporting civil rights to be perceived as a tool of the elite.

That's not the case. The constitution is the peoples tool to end facism and tyranny in govermnent. However, the people must know their purposes and unify around them.

Since that isn't taught in our society, we'll end up serving the elites purposes.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I was unaware it was brought up at a general assembly. They probably rejected it because it's a political angle, which goes against the core of OWS.

And I definitely agree with the other points you make in your comment.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Yes. There was a specific effort to find one person that would take the demand to the the floor of the GA. A few were interested, but in the end the stigma created by popular resistance to an old, neglected social contract won out.

The elite win one more small social battle because of control over dominant political curriculum in universities.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

It seems the elite have almost total control over our education system from top to bottom. That's a serious problem.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Add that to media control, some hidden using semiotics, and populations not only are deprived of information useful for protecting rights an freedoms, they are so confused and exploited, they don't want to know.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yep. And add it all together, they have complete control about what we think and how we perceive the world. Plus, they've made an art form of keeping us off-balance and distracted. A dumbed-down population that lacks critical thinking skills, basic education that's really indoctrination, drugs from Big Pharma and poisons in our air, water, and food. It's a wonder we're not a population of zombies.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

People dissociate all that difficult stuff and opt for fantasy and corporatism without even knowing it.

Zombie is slang for "somnambulism", and hyper amnesia is normal from that state. Maybe American mental performance is impulsive dissociation from simnambulistic performance.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

No reply button.

"People dissociate all that difficult stuff and opt for fantasy and corporatism without even knowing it."

That's 100% correct. I know quite a few people, some of which are close family members, that fit that description to a 't.' I think it's easier and less painful for them. Although I can't blame them in a way, most of them don't realize that by adopting that as a lifestyle, things are just going to get a whole lot worse. It's like sticking your head in the sand during a rising tide.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

It's unconsciously controlled. Instinctual, social response patterns. Insidious control from semiotics imposed on people with the intent of making them dependent for profit.

The uplift that ows gave people on social levels was from their speaking to instinctual needs. Had they linked that to constitutional intent and ART5, America would be on its way to justice and freedom.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

It may not be too late. I read a bit on ART5 during the early days but would have to re-read my bookmarked pages for a refresher.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Preparatory amendment and constitutional intent are the key to understanding HOW ART 5 can serve us. How we become "the masters of the congress and the courts". algoxy.com has some pages on that.

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yes, algoxy. com is one of my bookmarks.

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

There is a strategy page, with some very fundamental social psychology laid out for us. Rayolite used it, I saw it work a couple of times, now I've learned how to apply it. It's great! No matter who you are communicating with, you can apeal to some very positive instincts.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I haven't checked out that algoxy link in over a year so I'll be sure to look at it again soon to refresh my memory. It was actually a bookmark that I had lost when I had computer problems last year, so thanks for bringing to my attention again.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Yeah if only we would do what you want. Your way is the only way. We are all so helpless and ignorant. At least we know you are on the right track so you will get it done. Don't matter WHO does it right?

Let's fight a century old battle, with your ALEC inspired long shot.

Thanks for all your respect, confidence and understanding.

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Uh, how about facts instead of generalizing and trying to promote "all or nothing thinkinG". THOSE ARE COGNITIVE DISTORTIONS.

I'm saying ART5 has the authority through our states to totally control the federal government. Whatever the people can agree upon. The abridging of free speech is the problem.

alec would love you defending their motives. I signed rayolites petititon which will expose that they want an "unconstitutional convention" because I understand constitutional intent and alec has NONE.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Excellent! Good luck. Sounds like your way is the way to go. I'm glad we settled that.

What can I do to help?

[-] 2 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Would you agree the 1st Amendment needs some revision?

I believe that stating "life" as a principal is not quite enough. Values which socially support life in fully constitutional ways need also to be stated. Timeless values accepted by each generation as a foundation of their societal contract.

[-] 1 points by justiceforzim (-17) 1 year ago

Timeless values....like 1 man + 1 to many women = Marriage?

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I see. Like what values?

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

What are the greatest values or meanings that free speech can bring?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I asked a question. Please give the respect and common decency to answer without asking another question.

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

From free speech can come understanding. From that can come; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

What if I/we Need ART5 and not just "want" it?

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Well you got it covered right?

What can I do to help.?

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Respond to this proposal of value and principal for the greatest meaning of free speech.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/my-gosh-this-site-is-an-embarrassment-for-ows/#comment-951623

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Thanks. Very clever. You created a loop.

Jokes on me!

[-] 1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

How about a response to revising the 1st amendment with those values and principles.

[-] 1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

I think you have a clear view on these important values, I wish you good luck in all your good efforts.

I think this effort to revise the1st amendment with these values and principles is worthy of your work, and I think theeffort is in the best hands.

Thanks Keep us updated.

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

You can help by sharing your recognition of these values and the understanding that integrating them into the 1st amendment can create an environment where Americans will have opportunity to find increasing awareness and understanding of constitutional intent making us more ready to the "masters of the congress and the courts".

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

"no need to discuss"? That's antithetical to a good, progressive, successful movement.

if your goal is to silence discussion you are not a supporter of OWS. We are in the business of discussion 1st and foremost, how else can we "pressure the government"?

Mime it? LOL

[-] 2 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

I want to keep the discussion on topic, not silence it. OWS is not a political party. We should be talking about making the revolution, not about the finer points of this and that political policy. This site is not the website of the democrat party.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Great. You said Dem not me, & we don't have to be a political party to discuss the issues Occupy has taken a stand on.

income equity, increased wages, Money out of politics, Universal healthcare, Green tech, Immigration support, gay rights, womens rights, Etc and so on.

You're attempting to limit our speech to one political interest (how to overthrow the political system).

We @ Occupy encourage that discussion and any and all others.

You aren't having the discussion you claim you want to have. You are discussing what everyone else should NOT be discussing.

Free speech is definitely an important right we stand by so perhaps you should allow us to discuss what we like, even if it is what republicans, & Democrats are failing at, and go ahead and have the "overthrow of the political system" discussion you claim you want to.

[-] 2 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

Free speech is often used as a defense by those who can't stay on topic. My history teacher got fired because he always wanted to talk about sex in class. Like you, he cried the free speech tears.

Where's your integrity? If you don't support Occupy's ideals, why are you even here? Who follows and supports movements they don't fundamentally agree with. There are so many initiatives in the world you should chose some that are in line with your thinking. Occupy is about a revolution, not about creating or supporting a particular political stance within the system. If all you want to do is keep the republic, then simply support the party that pushes the policies you want, and, if it doesn't exist, create one that does. Those who support the system should definitely play within it. Occupy does not do that.

It's always been clear, VQ, that you're here to corrupt Occupy into yet another democrat pushing initiative.

[-] 2 points by Nader (74) 1 year ago

I think Occupy means different things to different people.

Some people can't really "take to the streets" because we have jobs, families, errands, etc.. that already "occupy" our lives. And a lot of us risk damage to our careers if we should be arrested or photographed taking part in direct actions.

This is merely an internet forum where people can discuss the ills facing our current society and some thoughts about what would cure them. Nothing more.

[-] 2 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

This is merely an internet forum where people can discuss the ills facing our current society and some thoughts about what would cure them. Nothing more.

That's what it is because you made it that way. It should be much more. It should be a place to help plan and organize the revolution.

Some people can't really "take to the streets" because we have jobs, families, errands, etc..

From a 2150 history book - "During the world's biggest crisis - at a time when Global Warming and extreme pollution were causing a rapid extinction of animal and plant species, Americans did not mobilize due to errands. and that is why we now live in a post-acopyptical world. Your great-grandparents invited things that destroyed the earth, and your closer relatives didn't do anything about it because they were busy buying soaps and plastic toys for their children."

[-] 1 points by Nader (74) 1 year ago

It is pathetic, I'll give you that, but there are only so many hours in the week . A good chunk are spent working and getting to work. Taking care of the kids, buying food, cooking food, doing chores, shoveling the snow, etc. People with full time jobs, a house, and kids to take care of simply do not the time to take it to the streets. When I was in college, sure, but for a lot of us now life does not permit it.

And I could never risk being arrested or losing my job because of what that would mean for my family and my home.

[-] 2 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

I understand that. It makes sense. We all have priorities. However, you do spend some time on this site. Do you think those discussions really make a difference? I think you could help the protest in more direct fashion. You must have all kinds of talents. Perhaps you could help make posters, make important phone calls, write an article, organize bus rentals for an event, take care of some logistics, etc... These are all activities that can be done from the home and would help those on the ground who have to take care of everything. If only we could pool the resources from everyone who wants to help to make sure no time is wasted at all. It doesn't matter how much time people offer. It could be an hour a week. If we organize ourselves, that can make a difference. Problem is, there's people one the ground spending too much time doing everything. This burns them out and tempts them to quite. At the same time, there's all kinds of people who can only access OWS with the Internet but aren't given a real way to help. Those people come on sites like this and use it for entertainment purposes, instead of using their time wisely for the protest.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Wow, you said a mothful of truth there.

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Do what you can. Converse on the issues you care about on this forum, pressure ALL politicians to pass laws benefiting the 99%.

Most of disregard this user (littleflower/trashy) who does not speak for Occupy and has no interest in revolution, only shutting down free speech & progress on this forum.

Good luck

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

Silly fear mongering. Everyone should do what they can. If you wanna discuss revolution, you should. What are you waiting for.?

Instead of insulting your fellow posters with nonsensical fear mongering,andtrying to silence everyone on all subjects but the one you claim you wanna discuss, you should start the revolution conversation.

But I guess you really have no interest in the discussion of revolution, only in your obvious attempt to divide,& corrupt any progress on the issues Occupy has taken a stand on.

[-] 0 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

You mentioned democrats again. not me. You resort to blatant lies when you try to attach "democrat pushing" to me.

I will continue pushing the issues Occupy has taken a stand on and engaged in action on.

Yesterday I joined occupy in marchs for gay rights (Doma) and for civil rights/against police brutality (Kimani).

I will continue joining with occupy on the following:

income equity, increased wages, Money out of politics, Universal healthcare, Green tech, Immigration support, gay rights, womens rights, Etc and so on.

Because these are the issues that OCCUPY pushes. Not because I say so because they do. And be clear, YOU clearly do not speak for Occupy because all you wanna do is silence discussion.

Of course I am very interested in the new form of govt, direct democracy, horizontal, ground up and all that good stuff.

You don't have any ideas about creating/implementing that though. You just want to silence discussion of the issues.

Sorry I don't buy it. YOU obviously simply want to prevent real progress on the important issues that occupy supports.

Try again.

[-] -2 points by elevenT (-99) 1 year ago

How naive you are, or purposely stupid. OWS is an arm of the dem party. paid for by dems .

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

It just kind of climaxed because a few people are being goofs. If you stick around you'll start to enjoy.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Don't worry, that's just Thrasymaque. He'll be back.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

It's a few others too. Not the same type of problem but detrimental nonetheless.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I meant "littleflower" is Thrasymaque. At least I suspect it is, but I could be wrong. The wording has a 'Thrasymaque feel.' I guess you'd have to have been here long enough to know what I mean.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Do you think it is him g?

Whoever he/sh is, he says a lot of truth.

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

When I first saw this thread last night it only had one comment on it, from Kavatz. The wording sounded to me like it was Mr. 'T.' But then when I read earlier about the neighborhood project painting houses as a community, I wasn't so sure. A great idea, by the way. But then, from above:

"I have been here since the beginning and have no plans on leaving. There's a lot of work to be done. We need to create community projects. We also need to create the Bridge to the Ground so that communities can unite. Community projects are local actions, the Bridge to the Ground is the connection between communities. I work in my neighborhood painting houses, and forging community links between people of all political affiliations. You do the same in your community. The Bridge to the Ground makes it possible for us to exchange ideas, solutions, problems, etc... that we are seeing in our respective communities. That's how it's done."

So, yes, yes it is he.

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Dang, I got sucked in again, but still I like the way Thrassy gives me the opportunity to get on the soap box.

Being as gullible as I obviously am, keep me informed of his where-abouts...OK g?

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 1 year ago

Worry about the ideas, not the proposer. Using good logic and good debating tactics will lead you to the truth.

[-] 1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Gee where have i heard that before?

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Hey Odin, . . . . ah, never mind. ;-)

[-] 0 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 1 year ago

Do you agree with the idea of doing community projects to bring people together so that they can help themselves instead of waiting for the government to help them?

Do you agree with the idea of having an Internet site so these communities can exchange ideas, solutions, problems, etc...?

Do you agree with direct action, civil disobedience, and other methods of pressure again the government?

If you answered yes to these three questions, then you agree with OWS and myself.

[-] 2 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Most of that good stuff is in place

You just have to use it, and get used to the idea that someone else thought of it before you

~Odin~

[-] 0 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 1 year ago

Yes, most of that stuff is already in place. I certainly didn't think of those things first. I'm just here to share the ideas so that more people participate with OWS activities. Is that wrong?

We still don't have a good site that links Occupy activities. A Bridge to the Ground. This is a big piece of the puzzle that's missing.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I'll do my best. my friend. But I do like the idea of the neighborhood coming together for a common cause. Think about how many neighborhoods in this country could use that. Actually, it does happen, it's not a novel idea. But it's still a good one.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

That f..ker says some good stuff before he gets into his divisiveness

That community spirit is alive and well in the more rural areas of the country

And it was very evident right after 9/11 in NYC, and again in Vermont after the torrential rains of hurricane...?

Building on that, and maintaining it, while educating people on our common oppressor is key to our success

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

"Building on that, and maintaining it, while educating people on our common oppressor is key to our success."

I have to completely agree. Except I would edit it to say "oppressors," plural.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I have them categorized in my mind as the singular 'corrupt elite' or the 'neoliberal assholes', but we're on the same page

~Odin~

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

A-ha. That works for me.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Good

~Odin~

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Ahh I see. I'm starting to see a real problem with some of the more prominent members here. But they don't like it when people discuss it. Which makes perfect sense. I've already seen people come here and get treated like shit, so they leave. Nothing can be done. I've enjoyed my time here lately but is it really worth it?

There is a clear team of prominent members working together do drive away new ideas. Why they're threatened is hard to say but it's clear they are. Bunch of pussy cowards, the real twinkle team has some members with very high scores. Now that is capitalism.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Yeah, I've seen new people treated like shit here as well on occasion. I'm sure it discourages them and does chase some of them off. I don't get. You'd think the members of this forum would be mature enough to welcome everyone. Personally, I like to get along with everybody and only have a problem with one guy who holds a grudge. As far as the so-called 'Twinkle Team,' I'm not sure they actually do all the voting they're accused of. It's impossible to tell. I'm only certain of VQ. GF doesn't strike me as someone who would much bother with it. The other so-called members it's hard to tell. But I have noticed a recent disturbing trend where people are being downvoted that previously didn't have a problem. It does seem like the conversation is being controlled to a far greater extent than ever.

[-] -1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Probably a kid at school, with a computer lab. Sometimes I think I used to think that way and write that way and believe I'm fooling everyone.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The attacked are attacked to get them to leave. Would supporters of Occupy do that? You want to know who is WHO? look at what they comment on and what they do not. Attackers are never seen to support Occupy activities or concerns - not even to develop cover. Attackers are seen to promote non-sense divisive issues and distractions.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

I've seen brand-new people attacked for no reason on here DK. Numerous times. Not every newcomer is a Thrasymaque sock-puppet. I seem to remember one girl in particular that wrote for some small-time publication that came on here to ask some questions and was immediately eyed with suspicion and attacked relentlessly. It was ridiculous. And no offense, my friend, and I may be wrong, but I seem to recall you being one of the culprits.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

That small time reporter? You must have missed the unveiling - it was VVVRustyButtHeadBrucie.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

No shit? How did you find that out? It must have been while I was gone. And in that case, that was a bad example. But it has happened here. Like I said, not every newcomer is 'Mr. T.'

Or IronButt.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

As I just stated to Kavatz = "We - The Supporters of OWS/OCCUPY have been trying to clean house from day 1.

You have not seen the beginning of the attacks nor the development of follow-up attacks. Many a troll/shill/attacker reinvents a new ID and may come in wearing sheep's clothing for awhile or not bother and go on the attack immediately.

Look at those with a high personal score ( karma points ) and wonder why they are still here if they are not genuine. Then look at the complainers and their scores and wonder why if they only have 1 or 12 points or a negative score - why they are even here."


This is not and never has been a black and white issue.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

But there you go again DK, using 'scores' to judge people. I never said anyone with a high score wasn't a genuine supporter. And I've been here since Nov. 2011 and there should be no doubt in anyone's mind I'm a true supporter. Why is my score so low? Besides a half-dozen extended absences, the rest of it is almost exclusively an attack by VQ. That, my friend is a fact. And I'll admit, it pisses me off. It's not my low score that pisses me off, it's logging on and seeing every one of my comments in a thread downvoted for no fucking reason. That's a vendetta and sometimes I get sick of seeing it.

Odin. A true supporter. Not only downvoted into the negative once but BANNED.

OTP. Regardless of what some people think, a true supporter. Downvoted into the negative because he doesn't pull punches. He speaks his mind.

Your assertion that those points are any indication of someone's sincerity or support is extremely misguided, my friend.

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

Very well put gnomunny.

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

No reply button.

This part I like best:

"To suggest that one user is so powerful that he is solely responsible for your point total is patently ridiculous."

Like it actually takes some kind of power to do so. All it takes is a few sock-puppets and a lot of time. Anyone can do it. If I was that childish and obsessive I'd do the same. But why bother?

[-] -1 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

I had one poster here who took me down by 400-500 points in one night. lol

That hardened me though, and i have been pissed ever since ;-)

The big difference today compared to a few months ago is the moderators are tons better as they are not parisan

But we will know for sure if I get banned over-night

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Thanks, Odin. And believe me, I got an earful for saying it too. A flurry of PM's and two messages from delusionman with his typical denials, one of which is right below. The other was on another thread. A thread, interestingly enough, where later on down, VQ actually admits he uses the stinkles "liberally" and will continue to do so. That wasn't to me of course, it was to another poster.

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

You're welcome. The below lecture is brought to you by the multple-pseudonymed, cone of shame man himself

~*Odin

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

To suggest that one user is so powerful that he is solely responsible for your point total is patently ridiculous. to say "exclusively an attack by VQ" is so beyond the pale as to indicate paranoia.

I KNOW many people have problems with you and your dishonest whiny cabal!

You are clearly out of touch with reality. Forget the score, focus on the issues that benefit the 99%, not yourself.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

G no Money - I did not point at you nor any-one else - other then to say look at support or opposition to issues. Sorry if you feel that I am coming after you. As I am NOT.

Are you trying to tell me that there are no attackers of OWS or all of OCCUPY that frequent here? I can not believe that that is so.


BTW - with the conversations that we ( you and I ) have had - it really sucks that you would make THAT comment.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6638) from St Louis, MO 1 year ago

Of course there are. I've seen them frequently. But I've also seen innocent newcomers accused of being attackers and chased away.

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Were they actually newcomers? As yes I have seen new id's jumped on - but were they new contributors? Really?

BTW - it still really sucks that you made that comment to me as if we have never had any discussions before. I would have thought that you would know me - at least - a little - by now.

[-] 0 points by engineer4 (362) 1 year ago

GF just identified herself to you as one.

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

Not sure I follow.

[+] -5 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Did I? Or did you just identify yourself to me?

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

AS one What? Long time supporter of OWS and all of Occupy? Then yes that is who GF is - a supporter of a healthy and prosperous world for ALL.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

When someone floods the forum with posts about education in prisons, how does that move Occupy forward?

[+] -7 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sorry - I believe you need to rethink your position. If the educational system is failing ( why is that? ) it needs to be looked at. If those ending up in prison are there for non-violent crimes - and are deficient in education to be successful in society - then the obvious course - would be to get them educated/qualified to be successful in society once released from prison.

We ( OWS - OCCUPY ) are facing the ills of society - the most visible is the white collar crime of wallstreet - but it does not start there - nor does it end there. It starts and ends with a healthy or a sick society.

[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

We can't address every single ill in society. We need to draw the line somewhere or we'll never make headway.

If we don't have the the fundamental power to influence our representatives, all of the other ill's in society that aren't at the core of Occupy that need to be addressed won't, because we lack the political power. It's like trying to use an electric drill without electric power. You can turn it as fast as you want by hand but not much will be accomplished. Get the power first, then plug it in and you'll make progress.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Well then - Support Move To Amend for a starter. If you need just one place to start - let it be that!!!!

[-] -1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 1 year ago

Thanks for the link.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Wondering about attackers anyone? why should this comment rate downvoting? Is not the truth of the matter obvious?


[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (24126) from Coon Rapids, MN 16 minutes ago

Sorry - I believe you need to rethink your position. If the educational system is failing ( why is that? ) it needs to be looked at. If those ending up in prison are there for non-violent crimes - and are deficient in education to be successful in society - then the obvious course - would be to get them educated/qualified to be successful in society once released from prison.

We ( OWS - OCCUPY ) are facing the ills of society - the most visible is the white collar crime of wallstreet - but it does not start there - nor does it end there. It starts and ends with a healthy or a sick society. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Kavatz - you have not been here very long - that is if you are for real ( a new contributor to this site ) - don't judge that comment too harshly as this site has been under attack from day 1.


I have been here as have others - targeted as the twinkle team since the beginning. High score? Nope not so much when you consider the time involved.


I will ask you ( if you are for real ) to hold off on judgements and take a wider look at what is going on here and look at those who are attackers - notice they do not get slapped by regulars until they make themselves known as attackers of OWS Occupy and a better healthier world for ALL.

[-] 1 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

DKA I do not think the two of us will be on different sides. You'll be able to tell I'm not an old member with a new identity. I only came here to promote and develop the Conglomerate, though sometimes compelled to state my opinion on unrelated topics.

I'm speaking out because of the weakness I see in the community, how new people are getting driven away (which really sucks), and how people are working together to irresponsibly capitalize on the point system (which is detrimental to the community).

People aren't wasting time complaining about their unfair stinkles. The victims and the justice seekers who care about the underdogs should be tended to.

All that being said, I'm always willing to forgive and forget. I'm also not bound to this community for any reason other than that I currently want to be a part of it, but that could change quickly.

Good content is important, but what's more important is unity. Sometimes you have to clean your back yard before you trying to fix the rest of the world. In this case it's more like you have to clean your kitchen before you have company over.

[-] -1 points by inclusionman (7064) 1 year ago

"Good content is less important then unity"? Nope! Good content MUST come 1st!!!! It can create unity, It can weed out the anti Occupiers,

But we cannot sacrifice good content for anything, not unity or anything.

"I only came here to promote and develop the Conglomerate" Good luck in your entrepreneurial efforts. I hope you get a lot of business from our good forum.

Y'know many come here to disseminate important info, and encourage actions to help the 99%, not for our own personal business ventures.

Many, not all.

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Sometimes you have to clean your back yard before you trying to fix the rest of the world. In this case it's more like you have to clean your kitchen before you have company over.

We - The Supporters of OWS/OCCUPY have been trying to clean house from day 1.

You have not seen the beginning of the attacks nor the development of follow-up attacks. Many a troll/shill/attacker reinvents a new ID and may come in wearing sheep's clothing for awhile or not bother and go on the attack immediately.

Look at those with a high personal score ( karma points ) and wonder why they are still here if they are not genuine. Then look at the complainers and their scores and wonder why if they only have 1 or 12 points or a negative score - why they are even here.

[+] -8 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

And whom would those be?

[-] 0 points by Kavatz (464) from Edmonton, AB 1 year ago

I'm not going to name names in public. You were not one of the ones I had in mind. I was almost angry at you once but we talked through it maturely. So far I think your attacks on people have been legitimate. But I'm not yet totally sure as I'm still fairly new and I'm not good at remembering names. Usually when I see you confronting people with your own special brand of venom, I'm on your side. Like I said though, I'm still new.

[-] 0 points by freewriterguy2 (3) 1 year ago

sorry that's just how we as a society degraded over the years. As evidenced by our television: we came along way since the shocking tv line in the 60's "frankly my dear I don't give a damn", for example. But people know something isn't right and fair, and Thomas Jefferson's prediction is coming true: "the children are waking up homeless on the land their father's conquered.

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

This is freedom of speech at work. I would rather have complete disagreement anyday over forced cooperation.

Dont get butt hurt because you arent convincing people immediately.

[-] -1 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 1 year ago

You confuse freedom of speech with remaining on topic. Being off topic hurts us, just like it would hurt the democrats to talk about card games during their speeches, and just like it would hurt a mathematics teacher to talk about football in all his classes.

My intention is not to force anyone to talk about something else. You're inventing the forcing part. My intention is simply to note that this site is off topic and this hurts OWS. I'm also not butt hurt.

You make many assumptions. This is your problem.

[-] 1 points by HCabret (-327) 1 year ago

There is no on or off topic when it comes to free speech. One of the main problems with deliberative bodies is that the people talking arent allowed to speak on any content they wish.

OWS is not a singular entity. One's person actions may hurt your vision for OWS, but that doesnt make it fact.

[-] -1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Ive been working in MY NYC OWS for 16 months
I think your OWS is different from mine


Declaration of the Occupation of New York City

This document was accepted by the NYC General Assembly
on September 29, 2011

As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

* They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.
* They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.
* They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.
* They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.
* They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless animals, and actively hide these practices.
* They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.
* They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.
* They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay.
* They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.
* They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.
* They have sold our privacy as a commodity.
* They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.
* They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.
* They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.
* They have donated large sums of money to politicians, who are responsible for regulating them.
* They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.
* They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives or provide relief in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantial profit.
* They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.
* They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.
* They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.
* They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.
* They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.
* They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

[-] -1 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

It's an embarrassment for America . . . uh it's an embarrassment for humanity.

The notion that "trolls" are the problem is one created to enable the cognitive infiltration we are beset with. Trolls were invented so cognitive infiltrators with behaviors that are enabling treason could pretend to be assholes.

[-] 3 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

I didn't know Tea Party activists promoted anarchy, communal work, helping each other, anarcho-syndicalism, free education, free health care, socialism, the toppling of the government, etc... the way I do.

The problem is not that I am from the Tea Party, it's that you and the other members of the Twinkle Team are promoting democrat solutions, not OWS anarchic ones. That's our only point of disagreement. Real occupiers have stopped using this site because it is controlled by self-appointed prosecutors who favor Obamaist solutions over Occupy ones. The Twinkle Team comes from moveon.org They attack all newcomers who aren't politically inclined with Obama.

[+] -7 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Did you get what you came for? Isn't this what you wanted?

Why are you crying now?

[-] 2 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

I want anarchy, not politics. People coming together on the Internet to share ideas about creating community projects in their own neighborhoods, not people discussing political policies that only political parties can implement. I want new users to be able to come here without being attacked by the Twinkle Team if they don't believe in writing letters to the president, in being Obamapologists, in playing into politics, etc...

I want an Occupy forum. Not one for the democrats.

[+] -7 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Did you get what you came for? Why are crying now?

[-] 1 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

No. You're still trolling this site with repeated questions and spam postings. The Twinkle Team are still spreading democrat politics instead of Occupy ideals. This forum is still an embarrassment for OWS. It's the softest anarchy website on the planet. Hell, this site isn't about anarchy, it's about political babble drivel. We don't talk about politics in OWS affinity groups, we move our butts to create real community projects than can have an impact. Oh! How I wish the people here understood what OWS was all about. A better world by the people, for the people, no need to wait for representatives. DKAtoday and shooz, would find their integrity and go back to a democrat website where they belong, and the rest of us could start working on changing the world with community projects. Obama already has enough websites. It's time for Occupy. Not political drivel.

[+] -6 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You are a puppet. Nothing more and nothing less. You have been banned multiple times. Because you are a suck ass troll.

[-] 2 points by littleflower (6) 1 year ago

A right wing shill that always posts about anarchy? I never once promoted a right wing ideology here, all my posts are about anarcho-syndicalism, community projects, bettering the forum, etc...

And, really, I don't like the republican vs democrat debate you try to box people in. It's lame. I work on community projects with democrats, republicans, whatever... I don't care. I just painted my neighbors house with 50 other people in the community. We represented a bunch of parties. Still, we worked together. You should try that. You won't make US better by pushing the ones who have different ideologies than you far away. You'll create a better world when you start building community projects with them. That's how you tear down the walls of lame party politics, and reach common understanding. We are all human. We have things in common. Don't let party affiliations blind you of that.

You're caught up in the political discourse that was created just for that purpose. You dish everyone who you think are republicans. You insult them with childish name calling. That's not what OWS is about. OWS is about democrats working with republicans because whether a person is a democrat or a republican does not matter. OWS is about creating community projects to bring everyone together. After two years, I'm surprised you don't understand that. Lame beyond belief.

You don't turn republicans or democrats into socialists by insulting them. You turn people towards socialism by creating community projects that benefits them. When they see the people around them can help more than governments, than they will turn towards anarchy and communal participation by themselves.

You're wasting everyone's time with your trolling, and you make OWS look bad in the process.

[+] -5 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You are a right wing shill attempting to pose as an anarchist. You are not. You are a cockroach. You are a sock of a sock. Nothing more and nothing less.

You are disgusting.

[+] -4 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 1 year ago

Who cares what or who I am. The only thing that matters are ideas. Not authority, not motive, not anything else apart from ideas.

You don't like the idea of community projects? You don't think they are in line with Occupy ideals? You don't like anarcho-syndicalism? Community efforts?

You prefer dividing people along party lines? Dem shill this, right wing shill that. We need everybody in this revolution; republicans, democrats, greens, independents, etc... Community projects can bring us all together.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

Actually, motive is a huge factor. You just don't like the fact that you can't escape being a shmuck.

You are a right wing troll attempting to pose in whatever little outfit that you think that you can get away with.

[-] -3 points by littlethingcalledOWSlove (-8) 1 year ago

Exactly how is motive a huge factor when I share the idea of building community projects? It's an idea for others to do. I'm not forcing them. Do you think their community projects will somehow be different because I mentioned the idea here?

I assume you think I'm going to pass off other ideas later that are anti-Occupy, even if I never did that before. However, even if this was my nefarious plan who cares? People are able to judge one idea at a time. People have to stop judging ideas based on the proposer. If I can trick someone into falling for my ideas just because I tricked them into liking me someone, then it just means those people don't have the intelligence to judge an idea for it's own merits. Always judge the ideas, don't make logical fallacies, and you won't have any problem.

What you are doing is a classic appeal to authority. It's a logical fallacy. You're also dividing along party lines by calling me a right wing troll which flies against Occupy ideals.

But, please, don't stop your comments. It gives me a chance to further expand on my ideas and bump my important postings at the same time. Keep the replies flowing in. Thanks, my dear accomplice.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 1 year ago

You are a right wing shill. You are a sock puppet. A desperate sock at that.

[-] 1 points by littIethingcalledOWSlove (6) 1 year ago

There are those who share good ideas, then there are those who call others names and divide people along party lines in anti-Occupy fashion.

[Removed]

[+] -6 points by DKAtoday (28265) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

Stated plain and simple. It probably still needs an explanation.