Forum Post: Let's discuss "The Purpose of Government"
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 2, 2011, 3:30 p.m. EST by talktowolf
(20)
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Agreement needs to be reached about the PURPOSE of the movement - if support for the movement is to be consolidated and if real progress is to be made.
I've no doubt that the purpose relates to the loss of democratic control over our governments - which have become preoccupied with imposing POLICY agendas rather than with upholding fundamental PRINCIPLES ..
What is more, if the serious failings of government institutions were to be fixed .. then the problems with Wall Street and related groups would inevitably be brought under control.
Focusing on Wall Street without looking at the deeper failures in government that allowed Wall Street to go so badly wrong would be a mistake, because it would not fix the underlying problems.
The preoccupation of those in government with IMPOSING partisan policy agendas has led to the most vital institutions of government act in ways that are in direct opposition to the fundamental purpose OF GOVERNMENT:
That fundamental purpose OF GOVERNMENT relates to PRINCIPLES rather than POLICIES ..
.. and THE core purpose of government is connected very directly with upholding the principle of fundamental justice.
That principle dictates that no person or institution will act in any way that violates the fundamental rights and just interests of ANY other person.
That is, the core purpose OF GOVERNMENT is to uphold the principles of fundamental justice - equally and for every single citizen.
I believe that the widespread support for the OWS movement comes from a feeling among many that the movement is seeking some fundamental change in the way in which our society "works" ..
.. so as to restore the principle of fundamental justice to its proper place as THE PRINCIPLE that guides and controls our society .. and to get government to do its essential job in upholding that principle .. as the institution with the duty to uphold that PRINCIPLE .. and to prevent the doing of harm by any person or party in our society.
Effectively, the movement draws its support from the perception that it is more concerned with correcting the deeper failings in government that allowed Wall Street to go so seriously wrong in the first place, than with the failings in Wall Street itself.
.. Put another way, support for the OWS movement arises from the fact that many believe or hope that it is directed by a commitment to restore the principle of fundamental justice to a proper place in our society ..
.. and that the movement, in seeking to move towards that principle, is dedicated to bringing about essential changes in the most critical institutions in our society that have a duty to uphold that principle .. the institutions of government - which have increasingly strayed from THEIR most essential purpose:
.. of protecting the rights and just interests of every citizen against the self-serving desires of those who want to bias the rules of society so as to create privileges for themselves.
In effect, I believe that the OWS movement gets its support from the fact that the movement is seen:
.. to stand behind the PRINCIPLE that governments must protect the rights and just interests of every citizen against the potential for abuse by any other citizen..
.. and to undo any POLICY, programme or regulation that would compels any citizen to provide unjust privileges or benefits to any other.
More narrowly, the OWS movement gets its support from the sense that it is attempting to take back democratic control of the vital institutions of government.
That is, the movement draws a great deal of its support from the perception that it is concerned with the fact that those who occupy positions of public trust have lost their legitimacy ..
.. by abusing the immense powers of the public offices that they hold so as to impose partisan POLICY agendas that grant privileges to the members of certain sub-groups in society ...
.. through the imposition of statutes, regulations and practices that grant privileges to some, at the expense of the rights of others..
..
And the hope that lies behind the support for the movement comes from the perception that it is intent on trying to find ways to ensure that governments take all necessary steps to uphold the PRINCIPLE of fundamental justice equally and for all.
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The only just purpose of the government is to protect the rights of its citizens.
Well said Febs.
However, I would simply add that the Purpose of Government is a definitive statement about the difference we want government to make for its people and the world.
The textbook definition of purpose is: n. The object toward which one strives or for which something exists. Without a purpose, what are you striving for? What are you resolved to accomplish? If you have no answer to these fundamental questions, our government (and our life) may be a real struggle.
Most people view the government as the vehicle by which they strive to get what they want. No regard at all for the rights or wishes of others. It is simply a tool to manipulate to force others to live the way either you would live or you wish to make them live. It is oppression in its most concentrated form. The idea that just because government can do a thing does not mean it should do a thing is so foreign. Sick people - government can fix it. Bad neighbors - government can fix it.
Its the default answer for people who are not able or are not willing to think. To talk about the purpose of government is to enter a layer of thought most people never engage in and are scared to try. Philosophy is a dirty word - political philosophy even more so.
You want to talk "oppression", try doing without government. Then, you will find, that the tool people use to get what they want is money, and then violence to maintain it. Or vice-versa. Or both. But I'm sure you already know that.
Please stop using the logical fallacy known as a strawman attack.
I am not advocating anarchy which is what you're alluding to be my position.
I want the government to fulfill its responsibilities as outline in the Constitution and its duties to restrict itself and respect the rights of individuals as also detailed in the document which it gives it any authority.
I think your correct. Most western governments have strayed from their original "PURPOSE". All the more reason to have this conversation.
Part 2:
That said, the embryonic support for the OWS movement comes from a sense that the PURPOSE OF THE MOVEMENT is to take back control of our government and its institutions ..
.. so that governments begin to do their most essential job - begin to live up to THEIR actual purpose - of PROTECTING the rights of each and every citizen.
So, if the PURPOSE OF THE MOVEMENT was to be articulated along the lines of taking back control of OUR governments from those who have perverted institutions that are essential to the operation of a sound and civil society, that would attract much deeper and wider support ..
.. enough support, one might hope, that it would create sufficient pressure to force those who occupy positions of public trust within the vital institutions of government .. to act in accordance with the actual purpose of their positions within the overall purpose of government - and so move towards restoring the legitimacy of governments:
.. by putting PRINCIPLE ahead of POLICY;
.. and by protecting the rights and just interests of every citizen.
If the PURPOSE OF THE MOVEMENT was to be concisely articulated – along the lines of the above - I believe that that would serve to consolidate support for the movement - and enhance the role of the movement as an effective agent of essential change.
Once a clear statement of PURPOSE is articulated it would then be possible to move on to discussing policies and prescriptions for achieving that PURPOSE.
Without the clear statement of of such a uniting PURPOSE, it would be impossible to evaluate any of the many policies and prescriptions that might be proposed by those who are associated with the movement . or who might want to use the movement to their own ends.
It is necessary to articulate the PURPOSE.
Excellent post!
I think our government should handle foreign affairs and rewrite the tax and criminal law system so they are written with common sense and fairness. One that puts our Constitutional rights first while the new laws are written.
Very well spoken!
The Gov't is a derivative of it's people: the purpose is to reflect their interests. And if I may quote from 'Cool Hand Luke' "What we have here, is a failure to communicate!"
Aside from the Cool Hand Luke quote, you're correct. However, how would you articulate the purpose of a government?
Honestly, other than my first post, I've got nothing. In college I was in student government and it was a blast. I had chance to see how easily the incentive of money influenced governing policies. So, in practice, the purpose of government is to steal as much money as you can, while acting benevolently for your constituents: and don't ever get caught because everyone is doing it!
Good description of 'how things are'. I'm more interested in how things 'should be'. Are you interested in discussing what the Purpose of Government 'should be'?
It's a mulit-variable solution. Realize we're dealing with people, who by nature are irrational. Then take this irrational being and ask them to define their needs....do you see how quickly this discussion gets slippery?
Yup ! I never said it was easy. IMO, its important to have it.
By any chance, did you ever get the impression that the intent might be to indoctrinate?
Yes. "Generating consensus" is the preferred language.
The purpose odf US government is to supply the power to israel for world domination.
The purpose of OWS was simply to demonstrate disappointment with the inequalities of Capitalism.
I understand that. That's why I'm here.
If you go back and read my original post you'll better understand how our governments have gotten to this inequality.
All the more reason to have the discussion on Purpose before we even begin to discuss Process and Measurement.
Friend, I am just glad we are doing something ..finally
Read this to understand the purpose of government http://thoreau.eserver.org/civil1.html
The just purpose of government is to use the power of the majority to protect the rights of the minority.
I understand 'what' the purpose of government 'was' and 'should' be. That's different from what it is today. Do you believe that western governments still meet the needs of all peoples?
Obviously not. And obviously no government ever could possibly do that, nor will they ever be able to. The best a government can hope for is to stand aside and foster an environment in which people can more easily meet their own needs.
I respect your comments. However, it would be helpful to understand why you feel that governments will not be able to meet the needs of all people and why the best they can do is stand aside and foster an environment in which people can more easily meet their own needs.
It seems to me that it falls to government to secure justice, that is, to be a public power which protects the basic personal and property rights of its citizens. This is typically needed to protect those who are weaker against those who are strong enough to trample on their rights, perhaps by excluding some citizens from the necessities of life, by stealing what rightfully belongs to another, or by forcing some to—in effect—operate under a different set of rules which places them at a distinct disadvantage. Aren't we there now and hence the OWS movement?
Governments should protect the rights of the citizens. This was the intention of the constitution. Sadly, we now live in a country full of people who think "health care" and "marriage" and "food" and "rent" are rights. Hence OWS.
If people were upset about their actual rights, they'd be protesting government, not wall street.
Who is running the U.S. Government? Aren't the banks the biggest lobby group in America today?
What happened to America? Its financial industry has grown so large and rich it has corrupted the real institutions through political donations. They are the most powerful lobby on Capital Hill. They own the place.
Don't get me wrong. Capitalism and free markets are the best engines for generating growth and relieving poverty -- provided they are balanced with meaningful transparency, regulation and oversight. America lost that balance in the last decade.
moral hazard > regulation. regulation is for noobs. Do you need a law to tell you not to do heroin? or do you need a law to not tell you to spend millions more dollars than you make?
What's your point thoreau42 ??
My point is that more laws and regulations only handicap the result that we all want. If we want people to be more responsible, we have to have them be held more accountable. Nothing holds a person responsible like the threat of their own destruction. Why don't people run out into traffic? Because we have laws that say so? Or because they are afraid of being destroyed by an oncoming car?
Regulation stifles competition, which is one of the factors needed for the health of....everything. Without competition, the whole system is not going to work, as you can see... We don't need regulation. We need to let people who ruin their own businesses go bankrupt and we need to allow anyone to jump into the game to compete. Competition keeps things healthy and honest. Letting people fail keeps them honest. Rule making and middlemen don't do either.
I'm not seeing how this has anything to do with "The Purpose of Government"? I'm only interested in discussing Purpose at this stage. Your posts deal with Process. You can't flip to Process without nailing down Purpose. I'm not sure you get it. And that's OK.
The purpose is "to govern" and the only reason that we would need a "government" to "govern" is because each person is incapable of "governing" themselves.
"One who surpasses his fellow-citizens in virtue is no longer a part of the city. Their law is not for him, since he is a law to himself."
If people could govern themselves, as in, self-governance, then government would be obsolete. The only possible purposes that government can have is to fill in what people are incapable of doing for themselves. If we were to enable each person to become capable of self-governance, there would be no purpose for government.
I realize that it's not possible to skip straight to that step, but I think it's the direction we should head.
My focus here is on government, and it seems to me that we cannot address concerns about government unless we begin to think more clearly about where government fits in the larger social spectrum, and about the particular, defined and limited role government is supposed to play. In other words, we must think carefully and clearly about the distinct purpose of government.
thoreu42 wrote: "The only possible purposes that government can have is to fill in what people are incapable of doing for themselves."
Purposes? What would be the purpose of government ??
Article 1, Section 8.