Forum Post: How About a Simple Idea for Radical Times
Posted 12 years ago on Nov. 13, 2011, 11:11 a.m. EST by JesseHeffran
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If, or once, The Occupy Nation agrees on one vision, it should be imperative that they find candidates that will agree to ask for a Constitutional Convention. This convention, through the internet, will become the forum for debating with the opposition. Because that debate will be accessible by all—and easier to hotlink—anyone who chooses not to participate abdicates their civil rights to the New American Consensus. This simple act, I BELIEVE, is the only way to change course. But a new deal has to be struck and agreed on before it can co-opt the government. I implore anyone who is taken this occupy thing seriously to tell me why I am wrong.
Sincerely, Jesse Thomas Heffran
Because it would be too easy to interdict this form of convention with a convenient power outage.
Wow, that's a really stupid point. I mean seriously do you think electricity companies are going to lose millions of dollars an hour by blacking out the whole US (which is what they would have to do) so that what, you'd have to wait until tommorrow to have your conversation?
Compared to incredible ease with which such a convention could be subverted, diverted and reverted to mindless socialism which would never get voted in anyway such a scheme is laughably ineffective.
In any case they don't follow this constitution, why would they follow the new one?
Targeted interdiction need not impact the whole, just key pieces at key moments.
Which is a principle that those on the direct action committees should consider carefully . . .
Right and how exactly would that work? Do you think that they'll get a whole company of people to selectively black out areas depending on what people in those areas are suggesting?
With selective targeting you get to choose - all depending on the limits of your capability. You can go as wide or as narrow as your tool box will permit.
I mean, why use a nuke when a sling shot is all you need?
It all depends on objective and capability.
Because it would be too easy to interdict this form of convention with a convenient power outage.
... or hack. But wait, that's already been done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs
that's is the beauty of it, if that happens, we know we are not free. If it goes off with out a hitch, evil is in our minds. call it a controlled experiment.
You need that as proof?
i love my self, i love my families, friends and i love my enemies. I believe my enemies only lash out at me out of fear and miss understanding. I could be naive, but i want proof. so yes.
They are not lashing out at you. They are robbing you blind. You are a profit center, a leveraged asset. When you can no longer generate profit you will be discarded.
speak for yourself; i chose not to play the robber baron game. i went to college before I started my family. This taught me History, science, theory and fact. The fact is the American way is killing the planet so i chose to embrace poverty. the government does not use my money to kill foreigners, oppress the working class and eat the middle classes' lunch. we all have free will.
You pay NO taxes?
I have already performed such experiments.
are you sure you did not focus too strenuously on the out liers
well, mine is in process right now.
I am alive. Others have not been so fortunate. Yet you have your freedom. Experiment complete.
The only question is, can you keep your freedom? The answer lies within you. Can you confront your fear?
my fear is that right wingers want to make me a serf and that climate change is real, but while at the same time I fear it is fake and that democrats want to enslave me.
Climatologists too, are afraid. They see what is happening. They see us doing too little about it.
The fossil fuel industry is an alliance of empires, kingdoms built upon once living organisms. The day of peak oil production is past, and cheap oil no longer exists. These kingdoms see this. They seek to keep us under control and divided while they maximize profit - to the very last drop.
All that will be left is geo-engineering to preserve what is left of humanity from the ravages of nature in a warming climate, and then we will all be no more than serfs.
If we stand together, and use all of the resources that are available to us, the most advanced people on earth, we may yet be able to mitigate some of what has already been done and cannot now be undone.
Do not pretend that it will be easy.
Just believe that we will prevail.
I've read all those claims, but I've read the counter claims too. If these claims can be substantiated through a convention than I can go on being productive. i find my self seduced by the left, or for a better word the intellectuals, but not convinced enough to preach the gospel.
Then I suggest a trip to Alaska, where the melting of permafrost is having undeniable affects.
Railroads that once ran straight now ripple across the landscape, telephone poles and trees lean at crazy angles, and houses collapse - all because they had been built on what was once perma-frost.
Turns out the frost ain't so perma . . .
I know it is getting hotter, and the scientific consensus says this is bad. But those that think technologically, say that it will save us at every degree we rise. a convention would tell them they are wrong. no?
I doubt it.
So tweet something.
Tweet: Corporations Have No Tongues!
me too. but until that question is resolved it is democratic warfare and most of the soldiers are in a state of paralysis. Without clerity there can be no liberty.
I agree. There needs to be some sort of charter based on consensus and the internet is the perfect tool.
A Constitutional Convention gives the Wall Street predators and gangsters equal access to changing the Constitution too.
That scares the fuck out of me.
It shouldn't. What effect do you think the constitition has now? Do you really think that it protects you at all? Would you know the difference between a constitional change that would protect you or endanger you? For instance the Citizens United decision, was did it preserve or endanger your rights. Hint: I agree with the ACLU on this.
with a logical debate that the people will vote on. I don't believe they have provided that yet. no?
Because just like this forum, an online constitutional convention will be a magnet for one issue politics and trolls of every persuasion.
How are those trolls doing, when they try to convince you you are wrong?
How are those trolls doing, when they try to convince you you are wrong?
The point is that sophisticated debate cannot take place in an "everyone is welcome" online forum. Then you get to the issue of banning trolls. Who decides who is a troll and who is not? Coming to a governing document with the input of 250 million people is impossibly complex.
if you don't want to debate your peers with respect, but with spam, then maybe you should be band. just a thought. no?
Plus the sheer number is staggering. Assume 1/4 of Americans made one post to the forum. Who reads through the 75 million posts to determine consensus? Even if you could, you cannot have a debate with one post. This is why you need representation, rather than direct democracy at least for the debate portion.
that is why the idea has to come before the co-opting the government. they called it a Washington consensus because it was crafted in Washington. so we will craft our consensus the same way.no?
Look at this conversation between us. It is two of us and has taken 20 minutes. If there were 37 million conversations like this it would take 1,408 years for a person to read them all and that is to spend 20 minutes just on one issue. It is simply impossible to do what you are suggesting, have it be inclusive, and have it work. It is why we have to have representatives at a constitutional convention. If you want to elect those representatives via direct on line democracy, that is perhaps workable. If you want to ratify the results via direct on line democracy, that perhaps is workable. An on-line convention is simply not workable.
Stop thinking like this Rael. If you keep thinking like this you're going to become an anarchist.
How do you overcome the fact that there are too many people to have a conversation?
people are more respectful in the real world. the internet will be used to span distances. new age grass roots.
What does respect have to do with the numbers being unworkable? Please look at my post above about how long it took us to have this conversation.
the convention will give them work or welfair. I meant to spell it wrong
It will take over 1400 years to have a conversation on ONE issue. Can you please respond to the content of my post . I'm beginning to think you are a bot.
I'm beginning to think you are intentionally trying to make the movement look bad.
How does your below reply respond to my comment?
well i guess your first step is to find people who already agree with you. I'm too original to be a bot
I am just saying I don't think it is possible. Look at this forum. Plus, how do you deal with the large number of people without computers? By definition, the poor and the elderly will be under-represented in the debate. You asked for people to tell you why they think you are wrong. It is what I am doing. It is just my opinion, but I don't think it could work.
if you know that what you say will have effect on your future, I think you would be more prone to listen more and to co-opt your friends in the real world to agree with you. because if you don't, your ideas get left out in the cold. this forum is a trial run, when my vision becomes reailty, people will take it more seriously. no?
But that means that MORE people will talk, not less so the problem is worse.
more complicated, not worse. honestly, i believe most people are moderates in spirit, but because of fear, they are flirting with the radical elements of either party, which is realy the same idea.
No it will be worse. As pointed out if the average American makes even one post the forum become impossible to read. Once this happens what is the point? How can it be said that you're voice is being heard if nobody reads the forum? It has nothing to do with moderation, it has to do with being heard.
What do you do about the fact that the poor and elderly will be under-represented?
the money that has been raised will buy them a means
Are you really interested in a conversation about this idea? If so explain how that would work. I have come up with valid reasons to think you are incorrect and you respond with flowery one liners without substance.
"both houses of Congress propose a particular amendment by a two-thirds vote in each house. There are two methods of adopting an amendment, but only one has ever been used: the legislatures of three-quarters of the states approve the amendment."
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/1003/1003consconv.htm
How does that respond to my comment?
It is a great idea in theory. My concern is that we don't yet have the upper hand numerically. The 1% still exert tremendous influence, and a constitutional convention at this time might just give them the opportunity to make our system even more subject to their control. I really believe that we need outreach to build the strongest coalition, backed by relentless pressure on the streets to force concessions. I really don't see anything wrong with the constitution except that it is a document nulliffied by the collusion of big money and false government. I think we must demand that our constitutional rights are restored, and true democracy renewed. How? Through the methods proposed above. These guys are clever and have more lawyers than a pack of wolves has fleas. We must proceed very carefully.
i rather know for a fact that they are uncompromising, then to just sit back and assume. I am only suggesting a modal of action I don't know what the solutions should be. at this point anything is better than the 'qou
Right! My proposal is to put unrelenting pressure on the establishment through direct action, social disruption (such as burning credit cards and repudiating debt, running cantidates and votiour strickes, disruption, and demand for specific constitutional amendments ending money in politics and total transparency. Furthermore we must all make an effort to transform are value system from a consumer culture to a preservation culture, and vote with our dollars. Sound simple? It isn't, but this is a war for survival. Such things are never simple or painless. We must make this sacrifice for future generations. If we can build a strong enough coalition by reaching out to rather than stigmatizing potential allies, this could all happen more quickly than we might imagine. Just my thoughts. I think we must proceed in this deliberate manner because if we slip up we may hand yet more power to the establishment, or spark civil war.
i thought of that years ago. You need to convince your friends what you just told me, but I beg you; have a PLAN 2.0, or they wont listen.