Forum Post: A Little Perspective, Please?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 22, 2011, 4:48 p.m. EST by MMB
(30)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
I am a young mother, about to celebrate 5 years of marriage completely debt free.
We pay for all of our living expenses with my husband's non-profit job and my part-time job caring for another family's child.
I chose to stay home with our two, soon to be three children, and from their births, we have done what we can to save for their future.
My husband works hard, and has been fortunate enough to keep his job throughout the economic crisis, allowing me to continue to nurture our children from home.
I currently have a 3.8 GPA in potty-training. (I had a 4.0 in grad school, but potty-training is much harder.)
We live comfortably in a two-bedroom apartment, spending the bulk of our income on healthy food for our family, and knowing that we can't have everything we want. We do not have an Ipod or smart phone. I don't even have a cell phone and I am perfectly okay with that, knowing that if someone wants to reach me badly enough, they'll leave a message rather than interrupting my walk to the playground with the kids. We do have a used eight-passenger station wagon, which spends most of its time parked on our street, while we bike our butts off for transportation. (Yes, you can do groceries with two kids and one bike.)
If I did have a debt, I would not blame Wall Street, but would check my pride at the door and avail myself of the Food Bank to feed our family if things came to that. In the meantime, I am more troubled that our family makes over 400 times what that of the average Somalian family does than I am that some CEO makes over 400 times what we do. I do what I can to participate in projects for international relief.
I am currently thankful to consider myself part of the 20% of the world's richest people. Yes, it would be nice if “the 1%” felt as strongly as I do about Somalian families, though I doubt “occupying” their turf is going to convince them to give their money away, so I'll spend my time and energy attempting to decrease my own consumption instead. I expect nothing to be handed to me, but try to be as open-handed as I can with everything I have. That's how altruism is supposed to work.
I will NOT waste my time whining about being part of the 99%, and whether or not you do is YOUR decision.
http://allearthlycares.blogspot.com/2011/10/perspective-response-to-occupations.html
You don't understand. I'm sorry if you have responsibilities. This isn't a debate about "jobless hippies", I have student debt. I had no choice, I couldn't cut a full ride scholarship, but engineering degrees are not cheap, especially in Madison, Wisconsin. The thing is, we are not protesting corporations because they cause our debt. We are protesting our fractional reserve banking system and it's bankster board members. We are protesting an ever stretching social elasticity. We are protesting skyrocketing health insurance via health insurance policies skyrocketing. We are protesting equal opportunities for children upon birth. We are protesting injustices that are not new. The thing is, we are manipulative. If you look at history, it always repeats itself, so if it (corporatocracies in politics) happened then, why do you think it would be so difficult (especially with things like mainstream media). We have reasons, do not refer to us as beggars, or whiners. We are thinkers. We are philosophers, and revolutionaries. We fight so that situations like yours will be equally accessible throughout our countries existence.
Fair enough. To say "whining" was unfair. I take it back, but I'll leave my post as-is for the sake of continuity of discussion on this thread. I accept these reasons for protesting, but would caution people involved in this movement to remain humbly grateful for what we have in North America, corporate abuses notwithstanding.
You had no choice? So the government forced you to take out loans? In that case, you need to take your case all the way up to the Supreme Court because I think it is illegal for the government to force you to take out student loans.
It's people like you who have allowed political corruption. You cry about your "rights", which is usually just crying to have someone else's liberties stripped from them.
BooHoo, I had to take out student loans, and now I can't pay them back. Please Supreme Congress of All, help me. I shouldn't have pay back loans that I took out for my own personal benefit. I have a "right" to free college education paid for by other tax payers. I have a "right" for Congress to take away the liberty of someone else to keep the money they earned on their own.
You whining beggers make me sick. You talk of "fighting" like you are some kind of damn modern-day founding fathers. Take a reality check, son. The founding generation actually had their own blood shed to secure their liberties, then passed those liberties to all the generations before you. You haven't, nor are you, fighting for anything. You are simply marching through the streets throwing a temper-tantrum because you don't want to accept responsibility for your own actions. Either demand your freedom and responsibility for your own lives back, or take your asses back home. You're not the 99% because 99% of America does not agree with handing over even more money to a bunch of SPOILED BRATS.
You're outburst of ignorance is my only frustration. Do you know anything about macroeconomics sir, because I would love to have a conversation.
Do you know anything about personal responsibility for your own actions and decisions, sir, because I would love to have a conversation.
Personal responsibility is wonderful. I wish the Chairman of Goldman Sach had personal responsibility. Then maybe Goldman wouldn't have shorted the food commodities market and driven 250 million additional people into hunger. Yes, I said 250,000,000 people. In one year. Greed. Greed. And you are defending it. You must be feverish. You can't be in your right mind. I'll assume you have the flu and it's made you delirious. Do yourself a favor and turn off your computer until your sanity returns. Here's the link http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-goldman-sachs-owes-250-million-hungry-people-a/
Oh Shit, here we go again. Ok let me sum this up for you. Personal responsibility is PERSONAL. Take care of your own personal responsibilities first, then focus on the responsibilities the elected officials have to you. Get off the business kick thing.
If the Chairman of Goldman Sach wants to cause 250 million people to starve, then that is on him. He's not going to make me starve because I take full personal responsibility to ensuring that I and my family are fed.
Did you really just say "If the chairman of Goldman Sachs wants to cause 250 million people to starve, then that is on him"???? Please confirm because, if the answer is "yes" then I'm printing this and framing it on my wall. (not kidding). I'll put a simple caption below it: "Friends don't let their friends fall for libertarianism or Ayn Randism."
Sure, let's talk about it. I have a bachelors degree, a job interning at one of the leading engineering firms in Madison Wisconsin. That does not change that fact that there are great injustices being done by the fractional reserve banking system, and investment banks alike. I would like to just say repeal the gramm-bailey-leach act. Reinstate Glass-Steagall, and incorporate the fairness doctrine once more.
Get off of it already. You act like the banks make the laws. Even though they may influence the laws, it is Congress that actually makes the laws.
That's like some guy whispering "I'll give you a dollar to call his momma a slut." into some other guy's hear. The other guy says it to you, then you punch the guy that did the whispering instead of the guy that actually said it. No. Instead you should punch the guy that said it, then tell the whispering guy, "If I catch you trying to provoke another person to fight me again, I'll kick your ass."
There is always a choice.
Does one have a choice to have parents? Does one have a choice to live homeless at the age of 17? There are circumstances when the choice, is almost a necessity due to ones environment growing up.
Well yes, I'm not trying to be rude, but you could always murder your parents. While certain circumstances can't be changed in an instant there are always choices to be made. Ok, I don't have a house to live in shall I sleep in a car, a box, or maybe I'll migrate to a different area that I'll find prosperity.
haha what like 1920s america?
The thing that really struck me is that you think that getting a degree in engineering was not a choice. I agree with you that fractional reserve banking is bad though.
+10 occupytheworld
You have good points.
Whining and complaining isn't productive and will only serve to alienate many groups that are in fact part of the 99... no 100%, since it was we the people that have allowed the 1% to be in their current position of power.
Although I don't entirely agree with your message if the claim is OWS isn't doing something productive. The Occupy message maybe muddied through the main stream media but that is part of the point. Corruption from within our society, especially through the monetary system, has lead to a distortion of what is truly possible and enabled this growing divide between classes/people.
Few understand that we could potentially allow every single person on earth to live a better quality of life than the current 1%. (see http://thevenusproject.com/ and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhSgCsD_x8) Of course this and other examples of post scarcity societies are only possible if competition isn't at the foundation of its society. OWS demands greater involvement through direct democracy where ideas and issues are openly discussed.
You have a virtuous perspective and I thank you for sharing it with the Occupy Movement. Hopefully more of these perspectives will carry over as major changes begin to develop and this movement transitions itself from an anti 1% stance to being pro 100%.
My post is not an utter condemnation of OWS, but a call for perspective. Although it disturbs me to see those who on a global level would be considered very wealthy indeed demanding an easier life instead of using what resources they have been given to help others, that is not necessarily what OWS is about. I respect those involved in this movement who are working toward global change, especially those who are willing to part with their own wealth, should the kind of restructuring being demanded actually take place. I suspect that most of us here in North America would have to part with some of the resources that we have begun to see as "rights" should that actually happen, but that's merely a hypothetical at this point. I do not think of those protesting as "whiners," but personally I refuse to complain about being in "the 99%." I refuse to point the finger at "the 1%" as the culprits. Why not start with "the 20%"--you know, those of us who have most of the worlds resources at our finger tips? Why not begin by voluntarily relinquishing our own greed? The coffee, bananas and clementines we essentially steal from South America, for instance. And many of those in OWS are choosing to do that, and I respect this. I just can't wholeheartedly endorse the movement as it stands, much as I'd like to. Comments like yours, and some others who have replied to my post give me great hope for it, though.
Ah, the horror stories I could tell you.
I don't think you get the point of this movement. People on Wall Street actually did crimes, actual crimes that they are not getting prosecuted on. It has nothing to do with just lower standards of living. That's one of many issues, but the main one is that those people committed fraud in the banking sector and we want them punished. We also want them punished for buying our politicians, who work for them, not for us.
That is all well and good. But my single issue has to do with the fact that a very small minority run this country, and their motivation is not what's best for this country or it's people but what's best for their bottom line. so long as we allow this to happen, this country will continue it's death spiral.
Both parties have been purchased and no longer work for this nation or the greater good.
Now I really can't complain about my life as well, but this isn't about me, it's about this nation and what will be left of it for future generations.
I'm not looking for taxing the rich or throwing people in jail, all I want is for my government to act in the his nations best interest. That's not too much to ask.
This sounds like it was written by a 20 year old Ayn Rand fan from basement lair. If you really are someone with kids, don't you have compassion for other people? How could you be so cold? I'm also shocked that a person would define him or herself mostly by what she owns and what her financial situation is. What about what kind of person you are? Some of the greatest joys in life come from being in a dynamic community with others. It sounds like you are retreating from your fellow human beings out of fear. Let go of your fear and open your heart. Your materialism is holding you back.
I followed you up to "whining about being part of the 99%" comment. I have held the same job for almost 30 years and also work part time too. My wife stayed home and raised our children. I don't hear any whining in this movement. My belief is that as long as you have your health and the health of those around you there isn't anything to whine about. Your life experience is something that isn't an option anymore for many couples. I commend you for raising your children. You truly have the hardest job on this planet. I hope that the ability and choice to stay at home becomes a reality for more families. I know the sacrifices like living in a one bedroom apartment and even a two bedroom home while raising a family. However, corporate greed has eroded even this modest standard of living. I think back when I was seventeen and independently purchased my own car at age 17 and licensed the vehicle under my own policy and know how difficult it is for this generation to experience first hand that hard work does pay even for 17 year olds. As corporations fight to lower wages and benefits to maintain double digit growth for their share holders I will try to resist this influence if it costs our younger generations the ability to provide for their families. Your husband and myself were/are fortunate to provide enough income to maintain a single wage earner structure during the years our spouses chose to stay at home. Affordable housing and healthcare have slowly disappeared. The days of a single middle class wage earner who can support a family is disappearing too.
I am from the 99% and proud to be here today. I am not asking anyone to do or give me anything. I am simply here to stop those crroupt taking from me and they have been doing it for a long time. I am here for my country which I deerly love. Recently it has been falling deeper and deeper in the abyess. I am here to bring balance and stop the free fall.
Wow, for a busy mother of two, soon to be three, you sure do have a lot of time on your hands.
No, just a wicked case of insomnia. :)
Dear MMB,
Thank you for this post, but I take some offense to see these young men and women of (I assume) your own country and your own generation called whiners! Nothing could be further from the truth. The protesters in Zucotti Park, and everywhere in the Occupy movement are emerging as the greatest generation of patriots this country has seen since WWll. It is easy to call people who put their life and limbs on the line in the name of liberty whinners, but I wonder if you would have the courage to join them? This kind of comment is flippant and unconscionable.
Please understand that my post is not an utter condemnation of OWS, but a call for perspective. Although it disturbs me to see those who on a global level would be considered very wealthy indeed demanding an easier life instead of using what resources they have been given to help others, that is not necessarily what all of OWS is about. I respect those involved in this movement who are working toward global change, especially those who are willing to part with their own wealth, should the kind of restructuring being demanded actually take place. I suspect that most of us here in North America would have to part with some of the resources that we have begun to see as "rights" should that actually happen, but that's merely a hypothetical at this point. I do not think of those protesting as "whiners," but personally I refuse to complain about being in "the 99%." I refuse to point the finger at "the 1%" as the culprits. Why not start with "the 20%"--you know, those of us who have most of the worlds resources at our finger tips? Why not begin by voluntarily relinquishing our own greed? The coffee, bananas and clementines we essentially steal from South America, for instance. And many of those in OWS are choosing to do that, and I respect this. I just can't wholeheartedly endorse the movement as it stands, much as I'd like to.
Your comment makes valid points, but it shows a lack of understanding, or concern, about the enormity of the crimes commited in our name by the corporate structure both in this country and around the world. To remain idle while such crimes are being commited is cowardice and evasion of moral responsibility. It is not a matter of seeking balance, as you would have it.
Put your children up for adoption, then join OWS full time. Is that what you want to hear?
Why would I do that? I'm not complaining about my own responsibilities, just calling for some perspective in the movement as a whole.
Good for you, OP.
I also work hard, have no debt, have substantial assets and investments, and dislike whiners.
That has nothing to do with anything.
Our country has been hijacked by a crooked oligarchy. We all know it. We need to make our democracy work again. That's why we're down there.
So what is your complaint? You seem to have a great life. The people who won't change want it as good as you do. Right or wrong is a question of philosophy, not economics. This post seems utterly offensive in the face of such struggling families.
I have no complaint. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'd like to see OWS take a more global perspective. It disturbs me to see those who on a global level would be considered very wealthy indeed demanding an easier life instead of using what resources they have been given to help others. The more that happens, the more I'll endorse the movement. I'm not saying that my heart does not go out to struggling families in North America, only that these families are still very, very fortunate when we consider them on a global level. That is all.
Well done MMB!
I truly don't mean to "toot my own horn," though! My point is simply that with hard work, sacrifice and luck, it is possible to stay out of debt. I know many others who've done what my family is doing. I also know many who are "falling through the cracks in the system," and my heart goes out to them. But I think it's important not to lose sight of how little a ways we have to fall here, in North America, as compared to elsewhere...
I do not see OWS in the same light that MMB does much as I respect her altruism and live style. OWS is a spontaneous uprising in response to a decade of abuse of the financial system and government inaction in the face of blatant excesses by financial institutions, leading to the Great Bush-Greenspan Recession, arguably the worse since the Great Depression.
Banks, insurance company, car manufacturers… they all did something they knew was very wrong indeed, and they got away with it because of a lack of statutory oversight. They all got repeated TARP bailouts, stressing the already stretched budget, stifling growth and wiping out jobs.
Even now the real estate market is stuck on deflationary.
OWS did not suddenly pop up out of the blue, in a vacuum. President Obama dismissed it as Tea Party Redux.
So in summary, I do not see OWS as a life style choice. I see it as a spontaneous response to excesses by financial institutions, diminishing opportunities and hence vertical social mobility, and a broken political system wallowing in incompetence.
Good for you. I'm glad to see your children will be provided for, and I am glad to see your family is happy. I believe your altruistic personality is what is missing from the rich and powerful of this world. Self-interest is destructive without the interest of others. Such as the mother who must take care of herself first in order to take care of her child.
I am glad you are doing what you can to lower your consumption as well, but be reminded that most of us, even with all our conveniences, are also posting our position within this radical movement for the inconveniences and sufferings of others. I would rather live like the children who are starving to death do in poor foreign countries to know exactly what they go through, and to know how to never let someone else go through that. Trust me, if there is a small percentage of people who has 90% of the globe's resources, then there is plenty to go around for everyone based on minimal survival.
I get what you're saying, and I applaud your courage. But I have some objections.
First, the system contested by the movement contributes to the misery of all those less fortunate around the world. America is, to say the least, a very large global player, and the health of it's institutions and democracy has deep repercussions around the world. Checking them, in fact, is our very first responsibility towards poorer countries. They have no power to fight the abuses of our corporations and governments. We do. We do not fail them by speaking out, we fail them, as we have for too long, by remaining silent.
Second, it is no reason, because there are worse ills in the world, to accept those at home. It's an entirely false choice : in no way does energy spent making your society better detract from making other societies better. Neither do we say it is acceptable to steal because there are some who murder.
Third, as much as this sort of stoicism may appear virtuous, unquestioning acceptance of his condition by the weak, despite the excesses of the strong, is what makes oppression possible. The glorification of this sort of self-denial is all too often a convenient way to make a virtue of passively enabling the unjust and unfair behavior of those in power.
This is the best argument against my own that I have encountered. I never said I had a degree in potty-training: I was joking about the 3.8 GPA. We can still do that, right? Joke? (My degree is an MA in philosophy of religion, from McGill. Not all that useful out in the workforce, but a whole lot of fun at the time...)
Ah okay. Good on you! A little humor is good for all of us. I suppose I jumped to conclusions too quickly, there are quite a few trolls around, and I apologize. Failure of communication happens online ;p. I'll edit that part of my post out.
Thanks: I assure you I'm completely sincere, not a troll. I respect your involvement in this movement, and those who approach it with the same spirit. I am glad you responded to my post, giving both me and everyone who stumbled upon my dashed-off response to the "occupations" something to think about.
Nicholas, well said!
Good for you that you were afforded the opportunity to get yourself debt free. I am in the same situation, minus monthly duties. I think, and I can only speak for myself here. A lot of the issue is that the 1% is dictating the rules for everyone else. When I have to work twice as hard to maintain my comfort of living , just because someone in the 1% changed the rules to benefit themselves, ... you get the idea. And not all of us desire to be wealthy. I "chose" to be a public servant and become a firefighter. To serve my community. I knew i would never be rich, but to me, knowing that everything I did at work, made a real , tangible difference to someone. Yes, I earn a decent living at it, not enough to be considered wealthy, but enough to not be poor either. Here's the rub. I chose this life and am happy with it, I am not happy with other taking whats mine in the name of personal or corporate profit. You can only turn your cheek so many times and when you finally kick others long enough to where they decide to no turn that other cheek, you start a revolution like occupy.
There but for the grace of God.....like all conservatives, their CS changes once they suffer, lose of job, serious illness with no family to support them. Like the young mother (just like you) whose husband left her and she came down with a serious illness. Your solution? Let her die, right? Look, lady, lots of us manage our money like you and make good choices but fate can step in any time. I agree that lots of people in this culture are act irresponsibly and they should suffer the consequences up to a point. But the culture and society are constantly seducing young people especially to live beyond their means and our educational system fails them and their parents as well. Do you believe in giving people a second chance? Or, no, that is only for Wall Street Banks and Banksters?
Of course I believe in second chances, and helping people out of debt--and no, I don't consider corporations to be people (down with bailouts!) I also don't consider myself a "conservative," by the way, and certainly not a Republican. The young woman in question has my sympathy and if I ever meet her, she has my help in every possible way. But if by "seducing young people...to live beyond their means" you mean that we cannot choose to limit our own outrageous consumption, then you've lost me! My point is simply that complaining about the existence of the super-super rich, while being (merely) super-rich oneself (and you are super-rich, globally speaking, if you have readily available internet access), seems a little presumptuous.
Lady, complaining about the super-rich is not the problem. You need to pay attention and become informed. Again, when a person is comfortable, they tend NOT to understand the issues involved here unless they were already sympathetic in the first place. Your definition of the superrich is absurd. You really need to get out more often. For all we know you and/or your husband have been subsidized by one or both of your families. I helped two homeless youths yesterday who were essentially forced out of their homes (parents were problematic). They had not place to live, no clothes other than what they were wearing. They were 17 & 18. I helped an 83 year old grandmother taking care of her grandchildren because their Dad was in prison and their mother had committed suicide. She was begging for money for her prescriptions. Friends and family helped her out to the tune of $1,000. She was on the street this year again, her social security and medicare not enough for her to survive. There are many variables in a person's life. Some inherit money, some are born into wealth, some of excellent parents modeling for them, some marry well, etc.; others are far less fortunate often through no fault of their own. I have noticed over the years (I am 60) that quite often people like yourself are in denial. And part of the reason for that denial is that you WANT to believe that everything has an easy solution, as if to say life is totally controllable. There was a story of a Republican who lost his job and the consequence of that one fact, changed his whole life and he ended up registering Democrat as he now understood the purpose for a safety net. Again, yes, there are people who take advantage of the system and who abuse it. But, many of them are wealthy too. The movement here is to end unfairness and abuses in the financial and political system. Have you ever studied the matter? It seems the answer is a resounding NO.
First off, calling me "lady" is demeaning and is getting a little old. Second off, I volunteer for an organization that provides aid for those well below the poverty line in this country. I do so a few times a week. I see children whose parents are too poor or depressed or drug-dependent to feed them over the weekend, so I deliver backpacks full of food to their schools on Friday afternoon. It is eye-opening and sad. But I wouldn't say I don't "get out" enough. Third off, my husband have I receive exactly $0 in "subsidies" from our parents since we each moved out on our own: our parents believe in fostering personal responsibility. Personally, I believe that a safety net is a good and necessary thing. Yes, there are people for whom "the system" isn't working. I am fortunate not to be one of them, and work to help them. But planting my butt down on the pavement in Wall Street isn't going to do that: a backpack feeding program just might. And, honestly, even the kids I work with, the worst-off in my area, are far better off than the worst off in Uganda, say, or many other countries, which was the main point I was trying to make. Finally, whatever you have seen over your 60 years doesn't entitle you to assume anything about me (that I am "in denial" or that I have not studied abuses in the financial and political system.) Keep your arguments non ad hominem, and you may actually sway people.
Calling you 'lady" is demeaning????? OMG, if you think you can get away with that bullshit with me, fuck off. Who the hell do you think you are> I can now see what your husband must put up with: a spoiled fucking bitch.Go fuck yourself.
Any way to remove posts containing profanity? Anyone?
This forum is not, as far as I know, moderated. So that would be a no. If you're open to learning more about the movement and having honest discussions with those who support it, I suggest checking http://www.themultitude.org/forum/index.php.
And Dost, I get your attitude. There is a lot of smugness and arrogance being thrown around by many who oppose the movement, but being dismissive or insulting ourselves won't help. At the very least not to people who disagree with us rather politely. While you may not have meant it that way, "lady" is often used in a belittling way.
That said, I'm not in the streets fighting for this everyday and it's easy for me to keep my cool. If you are, my gratefulness overwhelms my reproaches, and I'll be content to apologize to MMB in your stead.
I over-reacted no doubt but calling this woman, Lady, is not demeaning in the least. And if you consider this belittling, well, what can I say. It basically expresses exasperation.
Her taking offense at this It is a tactic she learned growing up, no doubt, to avoid constructive dialogue. It's a way of avoiding constructive dialogue and putting someone on the defensive. If she had said, "Man" or "Sir" would that be belittling? No. Not at all. This woman believes she is entitled to special treatment and has a sense of entitlement just because she is a woman. Now, that is sexist. Sorry, i don't agree.
Dost...calling a woman you don't know "Lady", ESPECIALLY followed by your next few sentence where you call her uninformed, absurd & tell her to get out more can certainly be construed as rude. You meant to be rigid in your post so be a man and stand by it.
"Her taking offense at this It is a tactic she learned growing up, no doubt, to avoid constructive dialogue. It's a way of avoiding constructive dialogue and putting someone on the defensive."
Yeah, because she really avoided the dialogue in her detailed responses that followed her very first sentence.
Being rude for no real reason gives OWS a bad name and alienates people even more.
Both of you felt hostility and both of you got defensive, is what I'm saying. That tilted the way you interpreted what the other said, as is inevitable without all the body language that usually goes in communication. I'm sure you can imagine, or recall, a situation where "lady" is used dismissively. She assumed it was such a situation because she felt hostility on your side and had no other information to go on.
I understand also that excessive demands of politeness are often used to divert or silence opinions, whether because one is more comfortable not considering them, or because one has interest in repressing them. My opinion on the correct response to such tactics, conscious or unot, is to politely call them out, perhaps apologize, and carry on with the relevant arguments. It's not a question of manners, or ethics, it's a question of efficiency. Answering with insults ("fucking bitch") validates their position of hostility and makes them less receptive to what you're saying. Whether or not it was a tactic in the first place, instead of different social codes clashing, it successfully diverts the discussion from content to form.
And that makes baby jesus cry. (Because, obviously, baby jesus is on the side of #OWS.)
I am perfectly happy to engage in productive discourse with those with whom I disagree. Obviously. Or I wouldn't have bothered to post. What I am not interested in is name-calling, or personal attacks. I am especially interested this particular issue, because it is not one about which I have entirely made up my mind. My post is not an utter condemnation of OWS, but a call for perspective. Although it disturbs me to see those who on a global level would be considered very wealthy indeed demanding an easier life instead of using what resources they have been given to help others, that is not necessarily what OWS is about. I respect those involved in this movement who are working toward global change, especially those who are willing to part with their own wealth, should the kind of restructuring being demanded actually take place. I suspect that most of us here in North America would have to part with some of the resources that we have begun to see as "rights" should that actually happen, but that's merely a hypothetical at this point. I do not think of those protesting as "whiners," but personally I refuse to complain about being in "the 99%." I refuse to point the finger at "the 1%" as the culprits. Why not start with "the 20%"--you know, those of us who have most of the worlds resources at our finger tips? Why not begin by voluntarily relinquishing our own greed? The coffee, bananas and clementines we essentially steal from South America, for instance. And many of those in OWS are choosing to do that, and I respect this. I just can't wholeheartedly endorse the movement as it stands, much as I'd like to.
Amen, Sister. You are part of the 99% of Americans that have PRIDE and are thankful for how good we have it.
Your name says it all. For how good you have it.
I see you have no pride. Wanting a handout are we? Well good luck. The productive class of this country are tired of handouts.
Handout, is that what you think this is about? You clearly are not very educated on what the whole point is. Mommy and daddy should have sent you to a better school, or you should have kept your head off the table and not gone to that frat party. You know nothing about me, I am financially secure. Not loaded, but plenty comfortable. This goes way beyond asking for a handout. There is systematic corruption that gives heavily unbalanced advantage to the very few because they buy influence. This, among many other issues which I won't go into here because it would be a waste of my time explaining it all to you. Others have explained it much better than I could all over this site anyway.
^1% wannabe who's upset that other are more successful than he, please ignore^
You clearly are here to provoke and not be constructive. However, I am a better person and will not fall for your taunts. When people are fed up enough, and are kicking in your door, then I bet your attitude will change.
I doubt you have it THAT bad in life if you look around the world. The USA is a pretty darn good country for us all.
On that I will agree. For me, it is not an issue of my own personal agenda or self-interest. It is a matter of principle and people being held responsible for their actions. Let me give you an analogy. If you were a partner in a business (used to represent the relationship of a citizen to our government), and you found out your partner was embezzling funds, how would you react? Well, that's how a lot of people feel, cheated.
I totally agree and that I would support to the bitter end. BUT, you are far from what I have encountered here.
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Unless you've never bought Chilean clementines, or a cup of coffee in a regular diner (that's not usually of the "fair trade" variety)--I've done both, for the record--then you do profit unfairly from the rest of the planet, whether you feel entitled to do so or not. Sure, the system is broke, and sometimes it feels like we are powerless. Moreover, many governments make better decisions than those made in Washington. (For the record, I'm a Canadian, but a permanent resident in the USA. Part of why I have no student debt is that I went to a Canadian University.) That said, "fixing the system" is a huge, nebulous goal. Reducing one's own consumption is more realistic, and fosters more personal responsibility. I live in North America. I am rich, 1% or not...
And how did you pay for grad school? With husband working non-profit and you working part-time? You also said he has been steadily employed, with no interruption during the recession. You may feel differently if he lost his job tomorrow. Then what would you be saving for your children's future, food stamps? How much pride would that leave you to check at the door? I think you are failing to see things from multiple perspectives. I am glad you are doing ok, many are not, and not from any misstep they took.
I chose to go to grad school because I got a scholarship that included living expenses. Otherwise, I would have been bagging groceries with my next-to-useless arts degree. I do not blame those in debt for their own debt, but I do think that we are missing the bigger picture by focusing on what those greedy corporations are stealing from us and ignoring what we feel entitled to take from the rest of the planet.
I personally do not feel entitled to take anything from the rest of the planet, that's what this is about. Having no real control over what those in power are doing. You can say, vote for this guy or vote for that guy, but no one person with good intentions can get anything done in Washington. It's broke, that's the point.
(Also, I finished my thesis weeks before our first daughter was born and graduated the following spring. I'm not saying I'm not lucky--luckier than many! But that's exactly my point: if you have internet access, you're about as lucky globally speaking, as "the 1%" are when compared with the rest of the USA.)
No offense, but you can't be serious? For starters internet speeds around the world are way faster than we have here, another misconception. Also, just about everywhere in the world has internet, including poor parts of Africa, where do you think all the scam emails come from? They sit in cafe's in Africa scamming Americans. Just pointing out some facts.
"Having" a computer with internet in an aid center in the neighboring village, or in a cafe in the city not far from the slum a person calls home, does not mean that they live with electricity or enough other resources (including a stable infrastructure and easy mobility) to access that computer themselves. You are naive if you think the "faster internet speeds" around the world puts a mother walking for an hour twice a day just for water at any kind of advantage. You're the one who can't be serious.
I was attempting, clearly in vain, to show you that your internet analogy is ridiculous. However, to use your logic, why doesn't she move closer to the water? Why doesn't she get off her butt and get a job? She lives without electricity? Isn't that an excess she can live without? She has the sun, and candles from the aid station, and free medical care and food. Easy mobility, she has legs? Aren't cars indulgences? Why did she have kids if she can't care for them? Why is it our responsibility? I walk to the store for water, why can't she. I can do it, why can't she. Couldn't she carpool with somebody that has a car. Why is she not self-sufficient? Since it will probably go over your head, I will say it, clear sarcasm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
Wow TCurtin, her point clearly went entirely over your head so...pot meet kettle on your last sentence? LOL and can't your rant that followed be said about almost everyone who is part of OWS as well?
The point wasn't about the internet access specifically, more on the basic surrounding factors that we often take for granted when demanding MORE MORE MORE.
If you are in America, in a home/apt that you own/rent, on a computer that you own, using the internet that you are paying to access each month...then it is likely that your personal financial situation is to the rest of the world as the 1% is to yours.
And to make it even simpler...
Average American : Rest of the World :: 1% : 99%
Rant? My point, which may not have been clear enough, though i did state it was sarcastic and using her logic, is that while yes, there are people there that are in bad situations, so are some people here. Her original statement at the top, basically was trying to apply something similiar to what i said in my post, to the people here, while she was saying people of Africa were so much worse off. I was just applying something similiar to what she was saying about us to people there to prove a point, that she should, given her feelings, apply the same thing to them. Average American : Rest of the World = Unfair Sure, maybe a valid point. But if you feel that one is not right, then why is the other acceptable? Ultra Rich American: Poor American= Unfair What amount of suffering and poverty is about the right level in your eyes? What's acceptable? Ever drive through the inner cities, what about Detroit? Some will say these people are lazy and don't want to work. I would say they are poorly educated and there are not enough jobs, blue collar jobs, that pay decent, that they are capable of doing and can survive on above poverty. Some would say get higher paying jobs we have here now, I would say college costs are out of control, so how do they pay, loans? A life of servitude to the banks (which just got bailed out themselves with tax dollars) because of loans to pay for ridiculous priced degrees that are required to live above poverty? A lot of these better jobs require degrees and others won't promote above certain levels without one. Servitude at some minimum wage job, which is not enough to survive on HERE, without acquiring debt, is not acceptable. Costs keep skyrocketing from inflation, while wages have not kept up. It's all relative to your cost of living, which is high here compared to there. Sure people can cut back and don't need a new iphone 4 or sports car, and can make wiser purchases, but you miss the point if you think that's enough. I would suspect you have not had any financial issues in your life, some issues for people are not a direct result of any conscious choice or mistake they made. You think 2 spouses are working multiple jobs to buy that new iphone? Should people get rid of health insurance for the family as a cost savings measure? Should they say, well we might die, or end up with ridiculous medical bills, if they will even see us without insurance, but at least we won't be living in poverty until the bill comes. Alot of big box type companies and restaurants are hiring double the employees and giving all part-time hours so they don't qualify for benefits, maybe not intentionally to hurt them but to save money. Or would you prefer that they get on the System for health insurance, a system which a lot of people strongly opposed, and then call them lazy and unmotivated. The people who have never experienced these things can't relate. Some people have worked hard and overcome adversity to be successful and self-made. Some have made some good decisions along the way and not encountered any real setbacks and now nearing the end of life may be comfortable. However, the majority of people who are comfortable during these times have had some sort of advantage in life, be it parents were well off or some other circumstance, such as the OP getting her degree in Canada for free, then saying she is debt free and making it appear it was due to some sacrifice on her part and that everybody else must be over indulging buying unnecessary things. I think these people have difficulty relating to what I am saying, and how a lot of people are feeling. Costs are high, wages have not kept up.
Who says that the 99% are whining? that's a huge misconception.
You're right: that was a hasty and unfair characterization of their behavior. "Speaking out against injustices," would perhaps be kinder. What bothers me about the movement, though, is that the injustices being noted are primarily those committed against the richest 20% of people in the world, most of whom themselves continue to overconsume in an absurd fashion! It's easier to point the finger at those richer than you than it is to reign in one's own lifestyle.
I agree. Speaking as a 99% myself. Most people who think they are 1%, also have a huge misconception, the ones who regulate currency and control the fluctuations of money are the true 1%. They are really a very small group of people.
thank you for posting
I think you are missing the point, We just want an even playing field again, even Greenspan finally admitted in 2008 that he forgot to factor in the Greed Factor into his free markets equation. Is this fair? Let's try this, one I think you can live with:
A march to Capitol Hill and demand:
For example, "We are here Congress because we want to REINSTATE the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wX which helped saved our country from the Great Depression by preventing investment companies, banks, and insurance companies from merging and becoming large brokerage firms; instead of just being Banks and Insurance companies--Congress why can't you learn a history lesson from 1929? Btw, why did most of you vote for its final repeal in 1999? http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act (2nd story here)
Think about where we are now, it all started in 1999 with lawmakers like Senator Phil Gramm who helped made it all legal gambling: CNN's The Ten Most Responsible for Economy Collapse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKQOxr2wBZQ&feature=related
Furthermore, we also want you to CHANGE the Commodities Future Modernization Act of 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000 BACK to where it was before 2000, which since has deregulated energy markets and consequently allowed for such scams as The Enron Loophole; whereas in the early 2000's Enron Corp. was charging 250 bucks plus for a kilowatt hour...They all when to jail for this. But, the Enron loophole is still not closed, for example, allowing speculators to resell barrels of oil over and over again before it reaches the gas station owner. It's basically legal gambling at our expense. What were those lawmakers thinking then? What are you thinking now? Either do the right think, or you're part of the 1%."
Why are oil prices high? The Enron Loophole. Former head of U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission speaks to Congress on the high price of oil--and he's not happy about energy deregulations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related
Rolling Stones Reporter: Truth about Goldman Sachs--how they have cornered the markets--basically, The Enron Loophole and the Repeal of Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw
Let's get focused and bring back Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, they got it right 1933, we don't need to REINVENT the wheel because bringing this Act back will create an even playing field once again....and let's finally Close the Enron Loophole, which allowed Enron to charge what they wanted for energy; they went to jail for this; but no one closed the loophole, why? Re-election Monies from the banks and oil companies! The writing is on the wall.
I think you're right about the OWS needing more focus. What I object to in the movement isn't the intent, but rather that those doing the complaining are still among the richest people in the world! Being among the 20% doesn't quite amount to being among the 1%, but it still ain't bad, if you ask me...
I agree, and my hat's off to you! It's all about education, the OWS will come together and get it right. What's so exciting is that this movement is a true democracy in the works...but still a baby. Wait till she reaches one! then we can both hope they did the right thing fo our country.
For the record, it's not that my heart does not go out to those in debt: there but for the grace of God go I. But some perspective on our relative "poverty" (i.e., global wealth) seems to be somewhat lacking in the OWS movement...
Agreed, and I particularly like the statement -- I'll spend my time and energy attempting to decrease my own consumption instead -- so perhaps you would consider our group's proposal of an alternative online direct democracy of government and business at http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo , hit the facebook “like” button if agreed, and then join our group's 20 members committed to that plan at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems/
Why? Because all of our 48 Tactical Investment Procedures designed to "decrease our own consumption (or work)" while increasing our luxury at the same time.
For example, there is an immediately effective and efficient solution to the problem of global warming, as follows:
If the 99%, as Home Town Banks of 65,000 Members, divide themselves into 16,384 Vehicle Investment Groups of 4 Members, with each group of 4 Members purchasing a hybrid-diesel-hummer-limo Cab which they then put into their Town Cab Fleet of 16,384 Lino Cabs, then this would reduce their Individual Transportation Costs by 75% (Cost of 1 Cab / 4 Members = 75% less cost per member), and yet they would have a Luxury Limo Cab available to them, out of 16,000 cabs in their Town, five minutes after calling for one, but not necessarily the specific luxury cab in which they own 25%. And most importantly, let's not forget the lessening of Mother Nature's burden from having 75% fewer cars with no traffic jams, and thus 75% less CO2. Furthermore, the list of simple productivity improvements like this one -- which the 99% want but the 1% don't want -- are endless, beginning with our 48 Tactical Investment Procedures at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems. But as their FIRST of Forty-Eight Tactical Investment Procedures, the 99% must control the banks as Bank Owner-Voters, and therein as Business Owner-Voters, before they can control their Town (and National) design in this manner which is much less costly (in terms of the worker hours needed to maintain it by 75% too) and yet have 75% greater luxury (such as a limo cab) at the same time. Consequently, to decentralize Banking & Business Ownership into a Focused Direct Democracy by Occupation & Generation is to lower cost 75% is to lower price 75% is to lower work 75% is to increase luxury by 75% is to lower Mother Nature's burden by 75%. And that's just 1 of 48 Tactical Investment Procedures in our group at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems starting from where the 99% are now, and then you can take the 99% even deeper technically (or mathematically) into an even better resource-based system, such as that cited at TheVenusProject.com and VictoryCities.com. So you see, once you get people thinking technically (or mathematically) like this, without arguing for argument's sake, in a way they can understand today, THEN you can move them to even high levels of optimally effective and efficient Town (& National) designs where the word "greed" and the phrase "lack of moral fiber" doesn't even exist, such as a resource-based economy, but which the people are not yet technically (or mathematically) prepared to understand at this time, but that can change as you improve their technical (or mathematical) capabilities in ways they do understand first, such as the example above, agreed?
offers a lot to think about, atki, but i can't find your link... sorry!
Plan Link: http://getsatisfaction.com/americanselect/topics/on_strategically_weighted_policies_organizational_operating_structures_tactical_investment_procedures-448eo Group Link: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/StrategicInternationalSystems
An MA in "philosophy of religion" wow, what freakin waste of the educational system. Bet that nets you a great long term career. You are part of the problem, you just supported the American Education joke, just another minion that helps keep those "professors" in their bigazz homes. Oh, wait, its ok for the profs but not the capitalists, right? what a joke!