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We kick the ass of the ruling class

Demands Working Group

Posted 3 years ago on Oct. 21, 2011, 3:01 p.m. EST by OccupyWallSt

A group claiming to be affiliated with the General Assembly of Liberty Square and #ows has been speaking to the media on behalf of our movement.

This group is not empowered by the NYC General Assembly.

This group is not open-source and does not act by consensus.

This group only represents themselves.

While we encourage the participation of autonomous working groups, no single person or group has the authority to make demands on behalf of general assemblies around the world.

We are our demands. This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%. Our collective struggles cannot be co-opted.

684 Comments

684 Comments


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[-] 13 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

You stated the OWS movement's purpose as clear as it can be. Good show. "We are our demands."

I agree.

This constant push for specific demands is ridiculous. This is revolution. We aren't occupying public space for a few concessions so that the 1% can then go back to what they were doing. NO! This is to call for an end of the status quo.

[-] 10 points by anonrez (237) 3 years ago

Agreed - the push for demands is an attempt to undercut the movement, to package it into a soundbite that can be manipulated (i.e. disarmed) by the media and the political class.

[-] 5 points by FHampton (309) 3 years ago

Demands in and of themselves do not signal capitulation. They signal political engagement and can be as radical or as independent as you'd like them to be. The movement needs to begin distinguishing itself by naming substantive goals; some of them may be attainable in the short term; some of them may be long term or even revolutionary. However, they must be articulated as goals if this movement is to have any staying power and effect, other than just getting people to have a good time and think about issues. It's time to kick things up to the next level.

[-] 3 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

"We are our demands." won't get us far considering 23% of the 99% currently support OWS, and it's mainly because nobody knows what is going on. There's no central message to rally 'round.

There are some demands that the 99% (you know, the 297 million Americans OWS is supposed to represent) will get behind. The important part is to keep it focused. 1 to 3 at the most.

Think about the arab spring. How many times did the media read off a list of 20 demands from the protesters? Never. Ever. How many times did they repeat the 1 or 2 big demands? Every time. How many times did the media say "well they haven't actually stated any demands?"

1) Public Financing for federal elections (don't alienate the states rights people)

2) Reinstate Glass-Steagall

Bam done. Ship it. Get everyone educated on what those two things mean and get them behind it.

Release a list of 20 demands and watch this movement fade away. Never demand anything, never get anything. Get at the source first and the system will gradually get better with continued involvement, that's what most Americans would want.

[-] 3 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 3 years ago

I agree with everything you said, and would like to add there is an urgent need to take the money out of lobbying. Policy on health care shouldn't be written by a lobbyist working for the health care industry. This can be said of ALL our legislation; look at the diluted Dodd/Frank bill; Affordable Health Care should have been single payer, if not, then should have included a public option. We can thank ALL in Congress for this travesty, they are beholden to the wealthy corporations which are more than happy to fund their efforts by buying our Representatives!

[-] 2 points by barb (835) 3 years ago

I agree, if they are going to make everyone pay for insurance then get rid of the health insurance companies because they are robbing everyone blind and still claiming that they can't afford to cover healthcare costs.

[-] 2 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

This would come as a result of having a congress that doesn't pander to corporate interests in the name of getting re-elected.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 3 years ago

Then we should make it illegal to pander their interests.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

You can do that by making elections publicly financed only.

[-] 1 points by bobbym54 (5) 3 years ago

The first step to getting our elected officials to work for the best interest of the community is for the Occupy movement to push for passage of the Fair Elections Now Act that has been introduced as Senate Bill 750 and House of Representatives Bill 1404. Passage of these bills is essential if we are to ever get candidates running for political office that aren't beholden to special interests and their big money contributions. Once the bill becomes law the second step is to support those candidates that pledge to use Fair Election funding rather than large donations or contributions from lobbyists. The greatest weapon we have is in the voting booth and many of the candidates will come to realize that by renouncing special interest money for public funding they can count on a major segment of the public supporting them. Replacing elected officials that legislate for special interests with those who enact laws that benefit our country is the process to regaining our country. The first step down that long road is getting Congress to pass the Fair Elections Now Act. If enough of us push for it's passage it just might happen.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

I agree with you somewhat, however I think the majority of the "money in politics" revolve around raising money for re-election campaigns.

Congressman A knows that if he makes this friendly decision for Corporation A, his campaign coffers will bulge with all the "personal" donations of the max amount from people working at that corporation.

If you remove that ability entirely for anyone to contribute directly to a campaign (including abolishing PACs and SuperPACs and creating laws about who is allowed to run campaign ads) you will remove a huge motivating factor for the congressman to vote against the people.

Another positive affect is that it gives everyone an equal shot at congress. Say if you get enough petitions to get yourself on the ballot, congratulations you have just as much campaign money and exposure as everyone else. If you get elected? You can do your job instead of pandering for donations throughout half of every term.

[-] 1 points by JanePrettyman (2) 3 years ago

In addition to public financing of elections, media must be required to provide free air time for candidates which makes up much of expense of running for office. A rational argument can be made for media to do this in exchange for their use of public commons for "airwaves" (running cables, wi fi, etc.). Create a special commission to negotiate advertising rates in print media for candidates. This is all part of an election reform package including of course getting rid of the Citizens United decision by Constitutional amendment or whatever it takes; getting rid of electronic voting machines which can be routinely hacked and are uncheckable; reinstating sane voter ID procedures and other changes; allowing permanent vote by mail; election day a holiday or held on a Saurday etc). All one reform package that reinstates the essential core of our democracy.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

Yep all of this too, I would imagine this would be included in any bill that switches to public financing. I do believe paper ballots are cheaper and obviously the more sensible approach.

Every candidate should have an equal amount of exposure to the population.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

I need a little help please. I'm part of the 99% that has no idea how lobbying works. If I did, I probably wouldn't be in the 99% right!
All I know is, I think that there should be no money that goes to politicians except their government salary. I undersand how political contributions to campaigns have a corrupting influence. But I don't really understand the lobbying part. And you sound like you know something about that. Can you explain?

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

A lot of people think government officials will take any cash coming their way (whether through lobbyists or whatever) and not think about it but the government has pretty strict rules about that kind of thing. Congressman aren't necessarily "showered" with gifts from lobbyists, it's all about the re-election coming up. You can stop that problem at the source and still allow everyone (yes everyone gets to lobby and there are a ton of good natured lobbyists) to lobby if they wish.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

So lobbyists contribute money to campaigns? I'm trying to follow the money. Is it : Corporations fund lobbys, which in turn fund campaigns? How do the PACs and Special Interests fit in? Are these all the same thing?

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

Corporations pay lobbyists to get all buddy buddy with members of congress. When the corporation wants something, it tells the lobbyist and the lobbyist begins working with congress to figure out how to get it.

If the congressman goes along with it and the corporation gets what they want, they can expect employees and friends of that corporation to be donating the maximum amount of $2,500 each to the election campaign of the congressman. The lobbyist themselves may also donate.

In the background that corporation could pour millions into a SuperPAC (anonymously) in order to run ads in support of the congressman during his campaign. This is what the Citizens United ruling allowed and has probably damaged democracy here more than anything else.

If you switch to public financing of campaigns you remove both the large personal donations from corporate employees that congressman is buddy buddy with and the millions the corporation could pour into SuperPACs. With public financing the tax payers give each candidate the same money and air time, the same chance.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

You have been so helpful. Thank you so much!
Is the Citizens United ruling just about running ads? Or does it allow for direct funding also? Is Citizen United ruling the same thing that people refer to as Corp Personhood?
How is it that there are limits to direct contributions , but yet PAC's are essentially unlimited? Is a PAC like a loophole? This is very confusing!

[-] 1 points by brian2011 (5) from San Antonio, TX 3 years ago

Corporate personhood is the concept that a corporation is a separate entity that has all the rights of a person (it's an artificial person), such as buying and selling property, entering into contracts, having the ability to sue or be sued, all independent of the Board of Directors of that corporation. That's why people form Corporations, LLC's (Limited Liability Companies), or other entities- to protect their own assets from risk. For instance, if someone owns a restaurant that is organized as an LLC, and a customer dies from food poisoning or something, the family can only sue the LLC, and the owners of the LLC cannot have their personal assets taken. The concept of "piercing the corporate veil" is sometimes used by lawyers to break this liability protection, which can occur if there is co-mingling of funds (the owners using corporate treasury funds for personal use, etc), or if the UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) is broken in other ways (not following the Bylaws of the corporation exactly as they are written), such as not having required annual meetings, etc.

Our own governments at the Federal, State, County, and Municipal levels are modeled after a Corporate format, being a public body corporate and politic, which is why we have a President, VP, Secretary, Treasurer, etc. Most towns even have a sign saying "Incorporated 1885" or something similar. We the citizens are the "shareholders" in that case. There are also unincorporated rural areas in some states, which means less government services and lower taxes, which is why some people prefer that.The only difference between the two corporations, government and private/publicly traded ones, is that one is run for profit, and one is not. But that is changing.

There are limits to PACs, and any contribution exceeding $250.00 per year is required to be reported to the FEC, all of which information is available online on the FEC website. You can search by the PAC's registration number or name, and get comprehensive reports on who donated how much to whom.

Personally, I've started an S-Corp, three LLC's, and have donated to two PAC's. There is a lot of information on the IRS website Publications section regarding corporations.

As for lobbyists, they basically get special access to politicians by letting them ride on the private jet or go on an all expenses paid "vacation", in order to help write new laws that benefit that corporation that they are lobbying for. Real estate developers do this when they want a city planning ordinance changed, by hiring a planning firm to write the amended code, and then having the city council vote on it after contributing to their campaign or paying bribes directly. They just busted the NYC housing official for taking bribes from developers in exchange for contracts, same thing for the former mayor of Hoboken, NJ, and damn near every city in the USA. And even Facebook has increased it's number of lobbyists over the past year, probably to help re-write the privacy laws that they're breaking. They are all guilty of doing this.

[-] 1 points by andrewinsandiego (26) from La Mesa, CA 3 years ago

You left out bundling, which effectively allows/allowed big donors to bypass limits on campaign donations.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

The Citizens United ruling basically allows corporations to anonymously donate to groups (SuperPACs) and those groups then run attack ads or ads in support of certain candidates.

Here's the wiki on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._Federal_Election_Commission

It's a very bad thing.

[-] 1 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 3 years ago

Our Constitution encourages individuals to lobby for a variety of reasons, first and foremost, I believe it was meant to stop the majority from absolute rule. Given that premise, to lobby for the disabled to enjoy the same fruits and liberties we all have, when successful, is an example of the power of a minority position. Our problem, again this is just one example, is that the Oil Corporations hire individuals (lobbyist) to represent their interests (billions in tax subsidies) by showering the Congresspeople with money via campaign donations and any other way possible. Individuals or groups of individuals should lobby our government based on ideas, rationale, logic, reason, fairness, and least of all money!

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

I wasn't aware that lobbys donate money to campaigns. Is this the same as PACs and Special Interests?

I think lobbys should have a right to voice concerns about a particular issue. But I thought it should work like a judge in a courtroom. You make your case to the judge, but you don't PAY the judge. Funny how that would seem positively ludicrous, yet, we allow our political system to work this way!

[-] 1 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 3 years ago

You got it......and we need to put an end to it.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

Thanks for the help!

[-] 2 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 3 years ago

Themes are powerful; the specifics will come.

That is one of the differences between a movement and an organization.

[-] 1 points by George1234 (82) 3 years ago

I would like to add a simple demand: Tax all bank transactions by 2%.and abolish income tax, sales tax, property tax etc, etc.*** Revenue required for Government program can be easily collected by taxing all bank transactions by 2%. No need for multiple taxes.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

That's way too specific.

Imagine a reporter saying that into a camera as one of the official demands of OWS. People will be raising their eyebrows wondering wtf they just heard all over the country. Not only that, but taxing the banks 2% per transaction would likely be a giant amount of money and they'll have to make that up somewhere, probably by charging their customers more.

[-] 1 points by George1234 (82) 3 years ago

2% Tax on the individual or corporate for making any transaction. The banks will collect the tax and deposit it with the government. Individual / corporate will not pay any other taxes. All other taxes will be abolished. At present, everybody is paying tax when they buy a shirt, book, pen, food, anything, apart from income tax, property tax, etc. All these taxes will be abolished. only 2% tax on any bank transaction.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

Sales tax varies wildly because it goes to local governments.

What you're proposing is that the banks pay for our government when I believe it is the responsibility of the people to pay for it's own government.

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

i live in state without sales tax, oregon. your 2% sounds like another sales tax -if use a debit card, write a check- or are you advocating a cash / barter system. i would advocate getting rid all sales tax, state, local, and most certain, not a national one.

[-] 1 points by George1234 (82) 3 years ago

I am suggesting ABOLITION of all taxes. Just pay 2% on your expenditure. This is enough for all government plans. Why pay multiple taxes.

[-] 1 points by number2 (914) 3 years ago

booshington. I'm voting for you.

[-] 1 points by Greentara (205) 3 years ago

Whoa ask Lara Logan about the nice folks of the Arab spring

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

Who is that and why? vOv Sorry I don't understand.

[-] 1 points by mikec (1) 3 years ago

booshington,

Your comment about needing 1 or 2 big, clear demands, not 20 small demands is excellent.

I am creating a web site (I am a Drupal web developer) to provide a focused online forum for intelligent, productive discussions about what the #OWS group needs to move ahead in terms of message, organization, supplies, etc.

Please contact me by replying to this post if you are interested in collaborating on this.

Anyone else who is interested in collaborating on this forum can also join in by replying to this post.

You can contact me at mcaudy at gmail dot com. Please use tag #OWC in subject header.

mikec

[-] 1 points by aphrodite837 (145) 3 years ago

I think that we need an organized forum for serious discussions, not just bitching. I am seriously interested! I would like to see work towards getting the money out of politics. What I wish I could have is a forum where people could post brainstorm ideas, give pros and cons on those ideas and eventually vote on a plan to move forward. (In an organized way: idea 1, pros, cons, repeat for each idea). I think it should start from the general and move towards the specific, culminating in the plan for how to achieve the collective plan.

[-] 1 points by JanePrettyman (2) 3 years ago

Agree with mikec and aphrodite837 we need to narrow down goals to a couple of major sweeping themes instantly appealing to most people and let other more specific goals cascade from them. Just dropped a note to mikec asking him to add me to a Focus Forum structured similar to aphrodite's idea. Couple this with aaronparr's idea (scroll down a few inches) about PUBLIC ZERVICE which, in my mind, could evolve into a sort of physical "goal" and general identity of the OWS 99 movement and eventually turn into an alternative local government with positive "public relations" proven by our service in community.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 3 years ago

I agree, this forum lacks organization and considering how important this movement is, I would think this is important if they want to be taken seriously.

[-] 0 points by PublicBanking (3) from Boulder, CO 3 years ago

This is a good illustration of how demands can be a problem. Neither of these demands would change who is controlling the planet. The financiers that own the banks which own the Fed have used it to print money and buy the key corporations (147 corps control them), governments, military and intelligence services, media and voting machines. So, control over the creation of money must be returned to the public. It is a sovereign right. The Constitution says only Congress can coin (print) money and regulate the credit; however, the Congress illegally gave this away to the banks that own the Fed. We need a network of public banks, from cities, counties, states, and at the national level. Our tax revenues must overseen by public agencies acting in the public interest. If this doesn't happen, the financiers will maintain their power by printing their bank notes and charging us interest to use them.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

Hey cool more Ron Lawl talking points that don't even come close to illustrating how one gets rid of the Fed, switches currency and the economic model of the most powerful nation on Earth without creating world-wide panic.

[-] 1 points by andrewinsandiego (26) from La Mesa, CA 3 years ago

Would public banks be a Ron Lawl talking point?

[-] 2 points by wintersiroco (10) 3 years ago

I suggest that those interested in demands shift the word "Demands" for "Goals". Having goals redirects the attention to what we can do to achieve them, hope, while demands are little more than begging to miss-representatives, no hope.

Goals are inclusive of demands, which would become one more among the diversity of tactics. Those with some faith left in current miss-representatives can go ahead and present our goals as demands to our miss-representatives. Something good may happen from this action, complete loose of faith after the goals are generally disregarded or postponed for latter day promises. It will also help to individually exposure political miss-representatives that will not endorse fair demands. This will pave the way also for any potential electoralist strategy.

GOALS redirect the attention to ourselves, that is the only power we have, and will spark our imagination. We should be as defined as possible in terms of goals, general goals would be a great start. We can always expand our goals, as we become more capable to achieve them and formulate them. There is not hope for our goals if we do not grow stronger, and I do think that having goals will help to broaden participation and to elaborate strategies to achieve them.
Cesar

[-] 2 points by globaluprising (2) 3 years ago

I agree as well goals instead of demands seems to have the properties of focused direction while negating the possible co opt of the media and politicians. Even if we set "unachievable" goals we will set the stage for perpetual innovation

[-] 1 points by TheIndependentCentrist (26) 3 years ago

+1 We can't just go on thinking that just by yelling randomly we will get something accomplished.

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Agreed.

I need to get public service on the agenda of our local GA. Instead of wandering about and protesting specific issues, I think we should start providing public services. An easy one would be to sweep the streets. Clean up public space. To make the public spaces of the city more inviting for more public life.

This does two things: (1) It cleans up your city. (2) It shows that the movement can put people to work solving problems that local government has been unable to accomplish. This shifts both political power and economic power toward OWS.

Ultimately the more public services the GA is able to administer, it becomes the defacto local government. I think local governments, and agencies within in each city could be made to shift their allegiance fully to OWS through this process. The movement needs full support from local government to succeed.

[-] 1 points by FHampton (309) 3 years ago

I agree with you.

[-] 2 points by TheMismatch (50) from Lafayette, IN 3 years ago

THANK you, someone else here gets it!

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

how about this idea for a starting goal:

Informed Direct Democracy, the process by which the average well informed real public opinion is brought to the attention of all, directly, is now obviously made possible by the internet. Just as we have secure online banking, shopping, chat, forums, libraries, dictionaries, and many other types of large online services and gathering places of opinions and facts, we can have direct voting on ISSUES that affect everyone, accompanied by direct FACTUAL open sourced information available to all so we can KNOW what the issues are and how the issues affect people. The idea that most people are incapable of making direct decisions in their communities, governments, and international affairs because of lack of abilities, information, and lack of a practical method, is no longer tolerable. Most people on Earth, are perfectly capable of making sound decisions about any political, environmental, social issue, IF the people are provided with factual free open sourced information about the issues. Most people have enough common sense and reasoning abilities to understand and reach very reasonable solutions to all the issues we, the people of Earth, face today on local levels as well as global levels. Having poor education, as the 1% have turned our public education system into their consumer-worker brainwashing, is not the same as being stupid; and being trusting, as most people are, is not the same as being gullible, and is a virtue, not a weakness to be exploited by the greedy 1%. Most people should trust each other to share control over society together, not give up our liberties to a system of greed made by the 1% that's causing famine, wars financial desperation, poor education, and the destruction of our planet, all for MORE PROFIT FOR THE 1%. The internet already offers EVERYTHING that is needed to have Informed Direct Democratic voting on issues everywhere. All that is needed is for people to organize a system. This system should be started by the 99% Occupy International Movement right NOW, while there is still time. In a few short years, the PEOPLE OF EARTH could be voting on local politics and local issues, and on issues that affect their country, and global issues that affect everyone. Let's not allow the 1% to make us out to be a petty and shallow and selfish and cowardly poor VS rich movement. It's not about taking down rich people, it's about taking down GREED itself; most rich people have the same capacity for being reasonable as most poor people do. A real economic recovery is not accomplished by restoring the health of the financial institutions, because they measure their recovery in profit; we need to eliminate GREED from the financial system, because too-big-to-fail corporations reporting record profits does not equal healthy fair economy. The people can come up with MUCH better solutions together online NOW! It's time to stop handing over our control and trusting our representatives to make policies that reflect the will of the people, which they never do. We now have a system of greed running all governments and societies on Earth. Having the ability to vote AND BE INFORMED WITH THE FACTS about the issues directly as a people can FORCE our corrupt and greedy leaders to make the will of the people a reality. After all, in a Democratic society, the government's job is simply to administrate the process by which the will of the people is formulated into a body of laws and policies, which MOST people agree with, and then protect the peoples' rights to have such a Democracy. The government is sort of the secretary and the bodyguard of the people, not the authority for the people to be forced to follow even when most people disagree with its policies and decisions. In a true Democracy, the PEOPLE are the authority of the government. MOST PEOPLE ARE REASONABLE, give most people the power of direct voting on issues, and we will have very REASONABLE policies, everywhere. Remember, the key is the FREE OPEN SOURCED INFORMATION (kind of like wikipedia) accompanying the voting sites on the internet. So when reporters come to ask protesters on the streets what we are protesting for, what do we want, what are your demands (as if we were robbing a bank or something) we can say: "WE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH DEMAND DIRECT INFORMED DEMOCRACY ENABLED BY OUR CURRENT COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY, WE DEMAND VOTING ON ISSUES THAT AFFECT PEOPLE DIRECTLY THROUGH THE INTERNET AND WE DEMAND THAT WE HAVE AN OFFICIAL OPEN SOURCED ONLINE LIBRARY OF FACTS ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES WE ARE VOTING FOR."

[-] 1 points by CandidateXfor2016 (1) from Wolcott, IN 3 years ago

This should be the number one/primary goal of OWS! If we were to create a truly free, accessible,informative, transparent and all inclusive voting process we would likely pass the majority of the already stated goals of this democratic revolution. We could leave the checks and balances in place, but institute a system where the senators/representatives could only vote as the majority in their district had voted. This would completely change the dynamic of our system and put the people in power and not the lobbyists & corporations. Direct democracy is true democracy & the MSM would attempt to demonize/communize this practice but think how foolish politicians would sound disapproving of an amendment which brings about direct democracy. This should be the biggest policy change & I think ALFI has hit the nail right on the head here!!

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

YES!!!!!!

hope the rest of the movement agrees and rewrites what I wrote democratically with everyone pitching in and makes it their official demand.

[-] 1 points by CoalHousePoiccard (2) 3 years ago

I agree with you, completely. Although having openness in OWS agenda is a good thing, I think that you guys and girls should not miss at all the whole picture from the OWS have merged. That way (I hope), your actions will be more far reaching in the near future. So, I will present you some fruitful data, even if you, folks, have already know them:

a) According to own accounts of the Board of Governors of the FED and their Historical Series of Annual Flows (which makes it more ironical), the percentage of Debt as a Percentage of Disposable Income in US (in other words, the percentage of Income paid to serve financial debt) has rised from 96.8% to 127.2% (Foster and Magdoff, The Hosehold Debt Bubble, pp.29). The Percentage of Indebted Families whose Debt Service Payments are above 40% of Family Income (in particular, those who earn aproximately from 20 to 39.9%, and from 40 to 59.9%) had rised from 16.6% to 18.6%, and from 12.3% to 13.7% respectively (same guys, same article, pp.31 - 32). The total debt in U.S as a Percentage of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) had rised from aprox. 260% to almost 335% from 1995 to 2005 (!!!!!)

b) Some world data: "in these and other ways, the rapid expansion of multinationals is creating a more concentrated world economic system, with the revenue of the top five hundred global corporations now in the range of 35-40 percent of world income...The same tendency is evident across the board: in areas such as telecommunications, software, tires, etc. This is reflected in record annual levels of global mergers and acquisitions up through 2007 (reaching an all-time high of $4.38 trillion), and in vast increases in foreign direct investment (FDI), which is rising much faster than world income. Thus FDI inward stock grew from 7 percent of world GDP in 1980 to around 30 percent in 2009, with the pace accelerating in the late 1990s." (http://monthlyreview.org/2011/06/01/the-internationalization-of-monopoly-capital)

So, why all this "obvious empirical information" is relevant? It is to make two important statements: your brave manifestations didn´t came out of thin air; and b) The enormous wealth held by the 1% is product of STRUCTURAL CONFIGURATIONS OF THE CAPITALIST MODE OF PRODUCTION IN A GLOBAL SCALE (Oligopoly Finance System and Big Corporations). Like FHampton said a couple hours ago, "it's time to kick things up to the next level". OWS movement has an enourmous responsibility not just in the U.S, but Globally as well. To have a schematic plan that is not sensible to Autonomous Assembly is (I think) a terrible mistake, as some people had advanced correctly in these forums through the last month. But to ignore some structural conditions of the capitalist configuration just for not "asking for demands to the State" is also a terrible mistake. I am not saying that making demands to the State is the right thing to do. I am saying that pressure upon the State and Financial Institutions would produce some important changes, from where it would be possible to construct the kind of society that we want. Neither I, and other individuals have necessarily all the answers. But asking relevant questions is a very important task to make, and much more in this particular historical moment. Please, we should not repeat the same mistakes ocurred after May 68. We have to trascend history and not just be realistic and demand the impossible. We have to make the impossible the base of the future reality, through coherent action right now. If I would produce some debate among of you, dear guys and girls, I would be terribly happy :)....

Greetings and support from far away, keep on fighting!

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 3 years ago

This makes complete sense. The protestors need some people that can write and communicate their objectives in goals they wish to accomplish. This is an important movement and it would be a tradegy if they did not succeed in making this change a reality.

[-] 0 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

whoa, a month latter; i want what, i want and i want it NOW!! jack-inthe-bx does it, apple does it, my love-interest says i do it. Why can't i get no satisfaction???

[-] 2 points by nico721 (4) from Erie, PA 3 years ago

Couldn't agree more :)

[-] 2 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Its too early to settle for demands. this should still be about threatening the 1%'s hold on power.

[-] 16 points by Bender (98) from Meriden, CT 3 years ago

exactly. having demands is acknowledging subservience to a higher source. there is no higher power than us. we are not asking for their assistance. we are declaring our independence, and their obsolescence.

our demand is not to those in power, it is to those individuals still asleep. wake up.

[-] 3 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

Right on! You never heard the likes of Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, George Washington, Sam Adams, et al, demanding anything of the king!

[-] 2 points by ANDROLOMA (6) 3 years ago

Declaration of Independence comes to mind...

[-] 1 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

Yes. HOWEVER, the founders had a clear plan for what they wanted to do once the revolution was won. There were no vacuums to fill. No unintended consequences. While I support OWS and people saying, "we're mad as hell and we're not gonna take it anymore", if the US and/or the world erupts into some kind of revolution, then what? Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Adams, Paine, et al, were deep thinkers and geniuses. Minds like that don't incarnate together often. Almost close to NEVER. So, what does that leave us with? They gave us a plan and we can return to that (and would if people only were educated about it), but I'm not seeing that many in this movement who are even educated in history, let alone the principals of liberty. We shall see, I guess.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

It may be a small point but there was a thing called the Articles of Confederation in the gap between the Declaration and the Constitution which was such a clear plan that the loose confederation of states was a mess. When that reached an intolerable level of frustration the started over. That was very messy and couldn't resolve issues like slavery. Then they dodged the issue of rights so completely that without the Shays's Rebellion and the drafting of the Bill of Rights, (10 amendments) as a lump the Constitution would have been ratified. It was amended before it was allowed to exist.

"They" as a group didn't have a plan. They had a wish, based on personal convictions, pieces of which were articulated well by a few of them but not fully developed by any of them. But they were not not much more than a loose bundle of wishes.

And where are we? We have a pretty good framework to build on ( the Constitution), which, with its amendments finally is giving most of us most of the rights that we should have. Starting over in a country as polarized as this I am afraid that we would be as likely to lose ground as to move ahead.

I am not looking for another civil war. There are times when I think the South is another country, but having friends there I would hate to leave them with no hope for a 21st century. pluralistic society.

I know it has been messy and many people have lived and died having never been treated as full citizens in this country but I doubt they would want to take the risk of starting over.

Let's keep working to fix the remaining issues, which I will grant are big, urgent and difficult.

[-] 1 points by bobbym54 (5) 3 years ago

I agree that our founding fathers were brilliant and that much thought went into creating the framework of our government. They understood that after the formation of this government that there would be constant threats to it. Ben Franklin stated: "You have a Republic- if you can keep it." He also said: " A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." I think that a good study into protests of the past that succeeded is a good first start for everyone. Becoming familiar with the efforts and strategy employed during the Vietnam and civil rights movements would be moments in our history to study and learn from.

[-] 1 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

Agreed. The people behind the scenes, trying to control the flow of information within the occupy movement, do not want that history discussed. I'm not talking about the protesters, many of who are not educated and are naive. There's a struggle going on to keep the truth from them.

[-] 1 points by johnoccupyself (4) 3 years ago

then you need to open your eyes.

[-] 1 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

Do tell! I would LOVE to see it.

[-] 1 points by witsendnj (1) 3 years ago

I think it's time for you to go back to the history books and READ.

NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION sure as hell sounds like a demand to me!

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

Yeah it was, but certainly it was not universally held. And it wasn't the only one. In fact, everybody had their own list of grievances and half of them, although they were frustrated still didn't want to revolt. In the town my family lived in, it was about evenly split, even though they signed their Declaration of Independence BEFORE the big one was signed. And after the fighting started, most still didn't believe it was a war for independence for a long time. History is history and is written after the fact. In it, everybody tries to justify what they have done to people who weren't there.

Most of those who weren't for the war eventually changed their minds. The rest lost their property and were sent to Canada or elsewhere.

Slogans do a poor job of explaining what really happened. A lot of the slogans they used were not addressed by the government that was created then nor even to this day.

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

That is not a demand. A demand is, King, Do not tax me unless you allow me representation. What you quoted was a statement, No taxation without representation. That's merely a declaration. No one has to do anything about it once declared. Same as, We are the 99%. Same as, Banks got bailed out, We got sold out.

[-] 3 points by TheMismatch (50) from Lafayette, IN 3 years ago

Having demands can acknowledge cohesion and direction, and can communicate that there is an ultimate "point" other than just venting.

Listen. I've said it before and I'll say it again- I think Occupy has some time left in which it can just keep growing without unifying under one general, coherent push. But if you say that we're modeled after the Arab Spring, then remember that those nations didn't just feel like shouting in the streets. They had specific, defined goals. "Remove Hosni Mubarak from power", "Moamar Gadhaffi must go," (apologies for misspellings) and so forth. Right now, Occupy's message is "Corporate greed is bad". Great!

...Now what, specifically, do we propose doing about it?

[-] 3 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

We don't demand something from someone or something, we do. We create the alternate society we envision. We didn't come out here to ask for favors or to blackmail someone into bending to our whims. We came out here to show others that we are here, and like them, dissatisfied, and that together, we can build the community we desire. So we're not demanding anything, ever. We're inviting people to participate in the creation of a better set of institutions to facilitate a better life. Demands are whining. Creating your future on your own is the action.

[-] 2 points by nonameinparticular (2) 3 years ago

Community creation is good; but this particular alternative community that is being created still exists in the US. Building a sustainable community will require going through the established political process at some point. Ugly as it is, that will be difficult to do without leadership and cohesive goals.

[-] 3 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

OWS is a candle in the dark. It provides light where was darkness. And it does so as long as it stays lit. It does not demand, it exposes.

[-] 1 points by owstag (508) 3 years ago

Yawn.

Where'd you get that fuzzy bromide from, a fortune cookie?

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

Agree!

[-] 1 points by George1234 (82) 3 years ago

I agree with you. We should start with one topic, accomplish it; and then go to the second topic, accomplish it and proceed further. Slowly and surely we will achieve our independence.

Topic 1: Abolish all taxes. Single simple tax collection process. Tax all bank transactions by 2%. ( Price of everything will come down by 50%), there will be no job for financial vizards. Topic 2 : Corporate financing for elections,and for lobbying should be made ILLEGAL. Topic 3 : Etc, etc......

[-] 2 points by SpaceEagle (2) from Magnolia, TX 3 years ago

Topic 1 should be overturning the Supreme Court rulings that corporations are people and that money is speech. Until that is done, the people will not have a chance of having a voice. Topic 2 should be preventing such a thing from happening again. Topic 3 should be laws to prevent a single person or corporation from sucking all the money out of the economy. It's the corporate greed that got us into this situation. Reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act should be high on the list. Abolishing all taxes isn't a good idea because we still need roads and communications systems.

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

What WE are going to do about it, is what You do about it and what I do about it. What are you going to do about it?

[-] 3 points by rachelayne (20) 3 years ago

very well said!

[-] 0 points by Bender (98) from Meriden, CT 3 years ago

thank you

[-] 2 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

i really agree--obsolete is right. it's all nostalgia now. we're living in a democracy theme park.

[-] 2 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

Nicely said. Discussing possible legislative proposals to fix problems is one thing, to style them as demands is another. One helps further the discussion, the other closes discussion.

[-] 2 points by socialmedic (178) 3 years ago

You have more than sleeping people, you have people who have been deliberately trapped by the policies of the last 30 years.

[-] 1 points by fanya128 (2) 3 years ago

You mean by the NSA for the last 50 years!

[-] 2 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Agreed!

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

YES!!

[-] 1 points by johnoccupyself (4) 3 years ago

yes, well said. thank you.

[-] 1 points by DawnStar (3) from Saltville, VA 3 years ago

Winning Arguments

Wars are still wars even if we chose words for bullets and spears. Therefore never enter into an argument if you are going to hurt or harm the other. Retribution and the exclusion of those that are hurting us will not win for us. We must move them and their minions to see that we have been hurt and that they have the means to end our hurting

We are here to win a hearing, to have our voices heard. At the moment the means of communication have been closed to us by corporate ownership of the media. Therefore, we need to use media that are not completely denied to us. Some of these are the repeating voices, mobile messaging, and acts of random and planned kindness.

Gerry Spence, perhaps the best advocate in American courts, tells us that many arguments can be won without arguing. Trust brings forth trust, and demonstrations of love, whether in the kitchen, bedroom or court, are the most powerful of all arguments. "How to Argue and Win Everytime, page 29.

I would like us to consider bring food we have prepared with loving hands into the offices of the 1% to share with them. We should do this because it is a good thing to do. Not to shame them, not to mock them, just to share with them so they might recognize that we are human.

It is impossible to argue with someone who has shut his or her mind with contempt for our dignity. We must either turn our backs to them completely or find a way to show them that we are here.

Our presence in the streets shows them that we are here, but we are seen as obsticles and not as real people. The media points to our strangeness and not to our sameness. The politicians call us, hippies and weirdos. They do not acknowledge us as voters and very concerned citizens. From this we should learn that we have not suceeded in engaging them in arguement... We need to keep looking for ways to engage.

[-] 0 points by Bender (98) from Meriden, CT 3 years ago

this^

Just to expand a little: You are right when you say that retribution or exclusion of ANYONE will nullify any validity this movement has. We are all in this together and cooperatively; no one is exempt despite their egos' wishes. Compassion and understanding and trust in yourself is the way to get through to ones core and make a true change. you can't force it through external stimulus(i.e. argument), change comes from the inside; all we can do is provide the proper environment for change. This is precisely what all of our occupations are doing, this is true engagement of the most effective variety.

However, you are correct. We absolutely need to keep looking for new ways to engage.

[-] 1 points by durian (1) 3 years ago

Wow, i've never heard that Occupy now regards the existing govt to be illegitimate. I've always heard that Occupy wants to work within the democratic process to fix what is wrong. So you are advocating the overthrow of the govt? Are you for real?

[-] 1 points by Joe4more (165) from Cranston, RI 3 years ago

I was wondering the same thing, and am a little confused. The Demands Working Group states "This #ows movement is about empowering communities to form their own general assemblies, to fight back against the tyranny of the 1%". I agree, but need to work within the existing democratic process. To suggest these "general assemblies" can somehow supplant or sidestep our Gov't. is an over reach. Some of the #OWS movements are being evicted across our country, that's why I think we need to coalesce the movements to a single entity.

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

im on the verge of tears!!! so beautiful <3 speak louder!!!!!! :]

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Hear hear Bender, you got it. Well said.

[-] 1 points by mightyflashlight (1) from New York, NY 3 years ago

That's right. Well said.

[-] 1 points by Someone (23) 3 years ago

that's the BOMB Bender! :)

[-] -3 points by OWSuMakeMeLaugh (-4) 3 years ago

You wake up and get a job.

[+] -10 points by jesus2012 (3) 3 years ago

awake here but rather bored and sleepy watching ya'll do absolutely nothing... pretty sure no one cares about ya'll and are just going about their business...

lol - hopeless

[-] 3 points by Rory (8) from Sacramento, CA 3 years ago

It's interesting...polls don't seem to support your opinion here. Do you have any data to back up your assertion?

[-] 0 points by jesus2012 (3) 3 years ago

yeah, what has been done to make things better since you started?

Polls are a bunch of made up nonsense, i've never been polled, have you?

[-] 2 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

We have reshaped the definition of action, of protest, of democracy, of popular consent, of voting, of communication, of broadcast, of definition itself, of politics, or leadership, of Jesus, of participation, of involvement, of responsibility, of progress. We are doing a lot, but if you're waiting for the reality show, you'll need to come by the park and get involved, do some real work, then decide. It's easy to badmouth our efforts from afar and without any knowledge... you end up just being a troll.

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

polls or trolls? i have been called, e-mailed, sent format mail : 'forms' ; i do not answer! ( which if i can make note, the political 1%, excluded themselves, from the robo phone bans): POLLS, ARE NOT ABOUT ME AS A HUMAN PERSON, rather about a pre-arranged value structure, which is hieriarhical: worse- bad-good-better-best, re-arranged according to the pre-arranged structured questionare.

[-] 0 points by Hellomynameis (243) from Aptos, CA 3 years ago

sound logic.

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

Jesus christ! please dont be so negativee it only hinders things and we want to expose the fda and big pharma, right!? ;]

[-] 0 points by OWSuMakeMeLaugh (-4) 3 years ago

Completely agree. Nothing at all will come of this except a dirty park in NY.

[-] 3 points by anonrez (237) 3 years ago

Yes - to make a demand is implicitly to recognize the authority and legitimacy of the power structure, which is dominated by the 1% and thus illegitimate. We should demand nothing from the status quo and its guardians!

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 3 years ago

petitions are circulating, like the one for forgiveness of student loans. Don't make demands, make petitions.

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

I can accept petitions only if they are intended to be internal barometers. We see how many people signed and if there is vast support, we just choose not to continue to pay the loans. It is action, not a demand. You don't ask for forgiveness of the loan, you simply say you don't acknowledge their authority to issue a loan or demand payment. The petition is stored for record. We move on to our own social structures.

[-] 2 points by TheMismatch (50) from Lafayette, IN 3 years ago

This is something I don't understand. The cost of higher education is far too high, I'll give you that- but just saying "No, I don't acknowledge the lender's authority to collect on a loan that I signed on"? Then they don't have to acknowledge your desire to get the degree in the first place. Or are we forsaking education as a part of "the institution" now, too?

[-] 1 points by erichbf (2) 3 years ago

DEMAND ZERO:

Occupy Wall Street could actually use a demand that is straight-forward and would have broad support. Accomplishing this would give the OWS movement credibility and moral connectivity. The demand should be one that is concrete and would advance the OWS agenda while morally isolating its opponents. The best demand for this purpose would be:

A constitutional amendment that would eliminate any of the benefits of the Bill of Rights from accruing to corporations, and simply state that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights only accrue to natural born persons is exactly the kind of demand that OWS needs to make. It is a simple demand, and one that, if acted upon would dramatically change the political landscape by allowing all kinds of limits on corporations. Such an action is a precondition for dismantling incipient corporate fascism before it takes root.

Any one who opposed that would so clearly isolated themselves that they would be committing political suicide. Also, such an amendment would have concrete results, for example, overturning Citizens United.

I like the catchy name Demand Zero, too.

[-] 1 points by socialmedic (178) 3 years ago

good call

[-] 5 points by activespectator (5) from Califon, NJ 3 years ago

Demands are made by hostage takers, kidnappers, and the like, not by peaceful protesters.

99%- please avoid making them!

[-] 1 points by TheMismatch (50) from Lafayette, IN 3 years ago

The peaceful protesters of Egypt had a demand. They had a lot of other stuff going on too, other ideas and desires; but they had one clear, coherent demand. "Hosni Mubarak must leave power". I wouldn't classify them as hostage takers or kidnappers, would you?

[-] 3 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

How is the OWS movement any different? Demand for the 1% to relinquish their influence over our government. Remove them from power over our lives. Its not as easy as removing a figure head. But its the same basic idea. We want real change. We want these people to get lives of their own. To stop living off of our sweat. To stop interfering with our public process, and stealing our public resources.

The movement shows a desire for all of these things. Distilling it down to some trite little message. Or just kicking out the president or the justices that passed Citizens united etc... That will solve nothing. There are always more shills to put in the game of politics.

We need fundamental change. As long as the movement keeps growing and gaining momentum... change is possible. Eventually these occupations are going to have to develop their own economies as well. Once that starts happening... people will realize how powerful they are ... and how ethereal wealth is .. how easy it is to work by working for each other rather than the "masters".

[-] 3 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

Systemic change, structural change, which goes beyond one or two laws passed, which requires an on-going effort at reform....

[-] 0 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Agreed. We are trying to create alternate societies, institutions, rituals. We do not need to acknowledge the old power structure, we just need to create our future and the rest will join us when they see fit. There is nothing we can demand that will allow us to live the way we envision. I am not looking for a fix, I am looking for a complete reinvention. That's the difference between the damned demanders and the devious dooers. :)

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

a complete reinvention, wow, perhaps, the term 'revolution' is old school. i am old school: 'revolution' , meant no turning back, no U/TURN. in my life time, 1968: the usa, france, poland , etc., ' the whole earth, feminism movements, etc., even then we were late to the civil rights movement.

there is much in my generation, i should beg your pardon ( clinton/bush,have libraries of rationalizations - i am sure obama will have as well.

when i look back upon my life: the failures were/are many - ( you could / can say less),good luck to you.

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Grow up. A lot of Physics happened before Einstein showed up. So fucking what?

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

hence, good luck to you.

[-] 3 points by rohjo (92) 3 years ago

They got more military rule instead of Mubarak. Specific demands play into the hands of elite-sponsored entities seeking to parlay social turmoil into states under their control. (See Libya.) The transparency and broad umbrella of Occupy Wall Street is its power.

[-] 2 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

You are so right. A week or two ago the military regime shot and killed several protesters. They still have not had elections.

And, Gaddafi, well he was taken down by the global elite and the western people were fed propaganda to make them believe there was some kind of peoples revolution. There wasn't. This was New World Order operation and the "rebels" are a mix of seasoned fighters from previous conflicts in Afghanistan and the Balkans and mercenary traitors who hope to get a cut of of the action when Libya falls under western control.

[-] 2 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

The transition to military rule had nothing to do with demands.

The military benefited from the removal of mubarak, so they allowed the revolution to proceed. Look into Egypt's military and how it has functioned as a domestic business. They wanted to ensure control over the domestic market in egypt. with the removal of mubarak - who basically favored neoliberal economic policies - the military has protected its economic interests.

[-] 0 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Rohjo didn't argue that demands led to military rule.

[-] -2 points by OWSuMakeMeLaugh (-4) 3 years ago

I see what you want now....to just give a reason to be lazy, do nothing, and complain complain complain like a 2 yr old. Don't know what u want....just know that you want to do nothing all day long and get paid for it (via donations).

So funny walking by you losers everyday I go to work.

[-] 2 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

You're the loser working in institutions that don't add any benefit to the society which you scorn. Maybe you need to readjust your miserable perspective / disposition. Maybe you need to quit your job to allow some joy to enter your "life sentence."

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

I work in the area too, yet see something completely different than you in the same place.

You seem to be spending a significant chunk of your time complaining right here, though in a superior way, more like a 3 year old than 2.

[-] 4 points by Marlow (1141) 3 years ago

Keep this Bumped.. it is exactly the response needed to curb nay sayers.. doubters and Crooks.

[-] 2 points by zz1968 (89) 3 years ago

But HOW do you want to accomplish that? I assume it is by convincing people that such and such has to be changed. What do we stand for? IMHO, if we do not have demands or a common set of goals then the couple of loonies who are always around will get the attention. Every troll on this forum can put something up and it is as good and as valid as a normal serious comment that is backed a 1000 people since we don't know if something is backed by a 1000 people

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

By taking action. Not by speaking words.

[-] 2 points by socialmedic (178) 3 years ago

In so far as to who is the status quo you do need to be very specific lest you shoot yourselves in the foot and alienate the very people who can be behind you, not only intellectually but financially.

[-] 2 points by HLSteves (2) 3 years ago

Of all the demands that make sense to me the one which would go far to resolve most of the problems caused by the 1% would be to end privately financed political campaigns and institute a public financing system and limit the amounts of contributions to independent "issue related" campaign organizations and require all contributions to those organizations to be made public.

[-] 2 points by bobbym54 (5) 3 years ago

I agree totally that this is the action that will bring about the desired results we all hope for. If we finally put an end to special interests buying up the influence of our government officials with big money in our elections, we will ultimately get politicians that legislate for the 99%. This is what the focus of the protest movement should be about.

[-] 2 points by larocks (414) from Lexington, KY 3 years ago

i agree with this. if we start making demands then they can get back to what they were doing before and we would not have accomplished anything.

[-] 2 points by accountablemedia (19) 3 years ago

"An end to the status quo." - aaronparr's demand :)

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

"An end OF the status quo"

:)

[-] 2 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

How about "Bring change back into the world"? :)

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

I gues what I am saying is that I would like the movement to be the end of the status quo. Not to demand its end, but to simply replace it. So yes, "bring change back into the world" is fine as long as we are bringing the change and not asking for it to come to us.

[-] 1 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

Yep. The 99% bring the change.

[-] 1 points by democracymatt (4) 3 years ago

I agree, demands should not be specific (because specific demands almost inevitably will divide us) HOWEVER, a demand doesn't necessarily call for a perpetuation of the status quo.

PLEASE follow this link to venn diagrams that shows how a demand can meet the interests of both revolutionaries and reformers: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1ruYo7Ss3Uald4r7sy8YOBPKUWVg4x7UiMmYbeFva8pA/edit?hl=en_US

A potential divide may be brewing between those who would like a demand and those who would not. I think that divide can be side stepped by making a demand that meets the concerns of both reformers and revolutionaries.

[-] 0 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Thats only part of it. The primary problem of placing demands is that yu undermine the movement because it gives the status quo we are attempting to disrupt a means to save themselves.

[-] 1 points by unimportant (716) 3 years ago

I have to disagree. It will depend on the demand itself. If the demand is merely the construction and implementation of the tools to make change when changes are agreed upon.

Another simple demand is to be able to care for and provide for yourself and your family. I am unaware of any that would deny another this.

This movement is moving forward and there is no way "they can save themselves" because to many are involved and the demand is to fix the country, something "they" are not willing to do.

-- I am simply unimportant

[-] 1 points by democracymatt (4) 3 years ago

If we, for example, demanded an end to the plutocracy, and those empower then instituted a democracy as the only way to save them selves it would be a) a huge success and b) no longer the status quo.

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

That's already implied by the very movement itself. So whats the point?

[-] 1 points by democracymatt (4) 3 years ago

implied to me and you maybe, but not to the general public. While many who have not been down to an occupation do get it on an intuitive level, many more do not.

Plus, a sizable faction want a demand. Refusing to have a demand because it "gives the status quo... a means to save themselves." implies that the movement is about overthrow of the government and is opposed to reform. Since, the reasoning behind not having a demand is essentially a revolutionary position, it doesn't reflect the wishes of many reformers, and accordingly runs afoul of consensus.

I think a consensus can be found in revolutionary demand that doesnt preclude reform. I updated the venn diagram to reflect this reality: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1szR8FX4tn2m5xQCGgMcZPH357EfZfLHIztr_dtZ_GDw/edit

Our demand should not set a limit on the possible, but rather it should reject what is intolerable about the status quo.

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Those that don't get it are few. And most of the complaints that I have seen are simply generated by the mass media.

All demands set a limit on what is possible, your claims to the contrary not withstanding. while the movement is growing in power it makes no sense to set demands. if you wish to set demands as an individual thats not a problem, and many are doing this.

And this movement is inherently revolutionary. Reform won't solve these problems. The issue is one of concentration of power. Its too late for mere reforms.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to keep our basic structure of government. The statement of principles embodied by the constitution etc... But the structural issues in government institutions are so great, and the concentration of wealth so great that mere legislation is not enough to solve the problem. You need to shake this up. Furthermore, simply changing who holds office doesn't do it either. The type of reforms we need are fundamental changes to how government is structured, and how wealth corrodes our political process.

I don't see how merely setting demands should lead anyone to expect our government and those that financially back them to comply. They will only give lip service. Make a few minor concessions. But they will not give up power willingly. But this must happen.

The self serving policy of the 1% is destructive even to themselves. Not one real problem that faces the population has been meaningfullly addressed in our country for over thirty years. Not energy policy. Not environmental policy. Not financial policy. Not trade policy. Not foreign policy. Nor security. Its insane to believe that you can change this by demanding that it happen. You need a revolutionary movement that is hostile to the influence of wealth in our politics to sweep the country. Perhaps waves of this revolutionary spirit for the next decade. And you need people that actually share the interests of the 99% to rise to power.

[-] 0 points by democracymatt (4) 3 years ago

There is a silent consensus “block” happening every day by the millions of Americans who haven't joined because they don't fully understand what this movement is about. It's immaterial where the confusion is generated from. Tell them it's about revolution, and our 99% movement turns into a 9% movement at best.

"Not one real problem that faces the population has been meaningfullly addressed in our country for over thirty years. Not energy policy. Not environmental policy. Not financial policy. Not trade policy. Not foreign policy. Nor security. "

Those things have not been addressed, in large part because our government is bought off by corporate campaign contributions...its not the government per se, its the system!

"The type of reforms we need are fundamental changes to how government is structured, and how wealth corrodes our political process."

Agreed. I am not saying this is you, but I feel like many people are close minded the second they hear the word reform, regardless of what reform is being talked about.

While close to 99% of the population would support radical campaign finance reform, only a fraction support revolution.

"I don't see how merely setting demands should lead anyone to expect our government and those that financially back them to comply. They will only give lip service. Make a few minor concessions. But they will not give up power willingly. But this must happen."

You're facing the same problem weather you make demands or not. the question of tactics is a different issue. As evidenced by the fact that I am all for nonviolent militancy and productive disruption.

But again, you have yet to answer the fundamental question, what is wrong with having a demand that does not preclude overthrow of the government?

[-] 0 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

I have answered that fundamental question many times already elsewhere, and in this thread.

Top down issued demands do split the movement. To set a demand is to say every occupy movement is setting the same demand. You need centralization of the movement for demands to be issued and centralization is anathema to what this movement is pushing for, and enables the entire movement to be co-opted by the political elite. Also contrary to the thrust of your argument (which is completely unconvincing by the way), interest in the movement will wane if a concentrated set of demands are issued for a number of reasons. And presently the occupy movement is already a VERY powerful draw to people from all demographics and with widely different politics. We shut down the port of oakland with tens of thousands of people if not a hundred thousand people BECAUSE the movement is open and inclusive. This would not be possible with what you are asking for. The Tea Party which went down the road you are advocating went from potentially as powerful as the occupy movement to nothing better than a political brand to be used by some of the most reactionary of the 1% and the extremists that want their backing. It is unfortunate that you would advocate for that.

[-] 1 points by democracymatt (4) 2 years ago

With all due respect, you can continue issuing strawmen arguments in an attempt to undermine what I'm saying, but until you address my actual arguments, such attempts will be unsuccessful. a) "To set a demand is to say every occupy movement is setting the same demand" You're going to need to explain for ie. how a demand claiming to represent occupy Portland, and occupy Portland only, means that the same demand has been issued by OWS or any other Occupation for that argument to be convincing...

b)"Top down issued demands do split the movement" You can argue till your blue in the face that a top-down demand splits the movement, but that won't get you anywhere, because I allready agree with that statement, what I'm calling for is a bottom up demand based in commonalities. Manipulating the consensus model, to impose your views on the the rest of us, who want unifying demands, does way more to split the movement.

[-] 1 points by booshington (397) 3 years ago

How do you end it?

[-] 1 points by provolisa (2) from Provo, UT 3 years ago

I disagree. No matter how the call for a nationwide general assembly came about, I believe that it has been done. The 99% Declaration has been widely circulated on the internet, and to create a big controversy over it now would be destructive to the movement. It really would seem like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing; not only to the media, but to the members of the movement as well.

Fortunately, I think that what has been done is a very good document. It gives the delegates full power and authority to re-write the demands/goals/objectives of the group that the document suggests, in any way they see fit. So we can have all of this discussion about how to express ourselves in the months between now and July 4th (a very symbolic date)

I can easily envision future elementary school students studying this as a second Declaration of Independence! The general assembly that it calls for; is sort of like a party caucus, without actually formally declaring a third party YET. At the same time, it is sort of like a constitutional convention to lay out the structure of the new government.

By effectively bringing this assembly about, the members of the 99% who do not yet know whether or not to join us, will have an opportunity to see that together, we are powerful enough to bring about the revolution.

I like the way that the document aims to bring about change within the existing two-party system, but does not hesitate to declare the formation of a third party if our needs are not met.

No, I did not have anything to do with the writing of this document. I learned about it last night on the internet. I read it, was impressed, and passed it along. A lot of people are doing that now.

Nothing in the call for a nationwide assembly stops us from continuing to Occupy public spaces. Indeed, that is the best way to draw the public's attention to the revolution.

Why not simply be thankful that we don't have to start from scratch to create such a document, and get behind the one that already exists?

[-] 1 points by Thisisthetime (200) from Kahlotus, WA 3 years ago

I agree. More power to Occupy Wall Street.

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

Informed Direct Democracy, the process by which the average well informed real public opinion is brought to the attention of all, directly, is now obviously made possible by the internet. Just as we have secure online banking, shopping, chat, forums, libraries, dictionaries, and many other types of large online services and gathering places of opinions and facts, we can have direct voting on ISSUES that affect everyone, accompanied by direct FACTUAL open sourced information available to all so we can KNOW what the issues are and how the issues affect people. The idea that most people are incapable of making direct decisions in their communities, governments, and international affairs because of lack of abilities, information, and lack of a practical method, is no longer tolerable. Most people on Earth, are perfectly capable of making sound decisions about any political, environmental, social issue, IF the people are provided with factual free open sourced information about the issues. Most people have enough common sense and reasoning abilities to understand and reach very reasonable solutions to all the issues we, the people of Earth, face today on local levels as well as global levels. Having poor education, as the 1% have turned our public education system into their consumer-worker brainwashing, is not the same as being stupid; and being trusting, as most people are, is not the same as being gullible, and is a virtue, not a weakness to be exploited by the greedy 1%. Most people should trust each other to share control over society together, not give up our liberties to a system of greed made by the 1% that's causing famine, wars financial desperation, poor education, and the destruction of our planet, all for MORE PROFIT FOR THE 1%. The internet already offers EVERYTHING that is needed to have Informed Direct Democratic voting on issues everywhere. All that is needed is for people to organize a system. This system should be started by the 99% Occupy International Movement right NOW, while there is still time. In a few short years, the PEOPLE OF EARTH could be voting on local politics and local issues, and on issues that affect their country, and global issues that affect everyone. Let's not allow the 1% to make us out to be a petty and shallow and selfish and cowardly poor VS rich movement. It's not about taking down rich people, it's about taking down GREED itself; most rich people have the same capacity for being reasonable as most poor people do. A real economic recovery is not accomplished by restoring the health of the financial institutions, because they measure their recovery in profit; we need to eliminate GREED from the financial system, because too-big-to-fail corporations reporting record profits does not equal healthy fair economy. The people can come up with MUCH better solutions together online NOW! It's time to stop handing over our control and trusting our representatives to make policies that reflect the will of the people, which they never do. We now have a system of greed running all governments and societies on Earth. Having the ability to vote AND BE INFORMED WITH THE FACTS about the issues directly as a people can FORCE our corrupt and greedy leaders to make the will of the people a reality. After all, in a Democratic society, the government's job is simply to administrate the process by which the will of the people is formulated into a body of laws and policies, which MOST people agree with, and then protect the peoples' rights to have such a Democracy. The government is sort of the secretary and the bodyguard of the people, not the authority for the people to be forced to follow even when most people disagree with its policies and decisions. In a true Democracy, the PEOPLE are the authority of the government. MOST PEOPLE ARE REASONABLE, give most people the power of direct voting on issues, and we will have very REASONABLE policies, everywhere. Remember, the key is the FREE OPEN SOURCED INFORMATION (kind of like wikipedia) accompanying the voting sites on the internet. So when reporters come to ask protesters on the streets what we are protesting for, what do we want, what are your demands (as if we were robbing a bank or something) we can say: "WE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH DEMAND DIRECT INFORMED DEMOCRACY ENABLED BY OUR CURRENT COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY, WE DEMAND VOTING ON ISSUES THAT AFFECT PEOPLE DIRECTLY THROUGH THE INTERNET AND WE DEMAND THAT WE HAVE AN OFFICIAL OPEN SOURCED ONLINE LIBRARY OF FACTS ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES WE ARE VOTING FOR."

[-] 1 points by Freeeducation (1) 3 years ago

What do we do when the police come and end the occupation. It will happen, and if you don't think it will happen you live in a world that doesnt exist. The movement is not about occupying. Occupying is a tacktick, not a movement. We will need atleast 100 million people (1/3 of the country at least) to change the fundamental structure of the economic system that we live in. Thinking that all thouse people are going to become involved without having any goals, demands or what ever, will not happen. We need to formulate an alternative to what exisits and how to get there, otherwise we will occupy to occupy. It's like listening to pop music and thinking it has meaning because it popular.

[-] 1 points by provolisa (2) from Provo, UT 3 years ago

Exactly!

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

It is about what you do. Not what you demand. Assert yourself.

[-] 1 points by earthiling (3) 3 years ago

I agree this has to be bigger than a list of demands.

It has to be real change in society obtained by actions not demands.

We have to stop thinking of money as the main objective of our lives, and bring back values lost due to the constant brainwash consumer society has been victim of, where having money is more important than being a honorable and honest person. This needs to be a evolution on how we live, in how we spend our money, in how we interact with our governments, we need not to revolve but to evolve as a intricate global society and make the 1% realize that we are still in this together.

[-] 1 points by jamesvapor (221) 3 years ago

so do we need to bring match books , or just books ?

[-] 1 points by johnoccupyself (4) 3 years ago

agreed!

[-] 1 points by little99percent (3) 3 years ago

It is not only time to make demands but to gel it down to one simple axiomatic solution: TAKE THE MONEY OUT OF AMERICAN POLITICS AND DELETE FOREIGN-PRIVATE CONTROL OVER THE FEDERAL RESERVE. The one factor that allowed Bernanke and his goons to prompt their "elected" puppet to "bail out" the money glutting banks and sell us and our grandchildren into economic slavery was the fact that presidents and congress are elected on a money dependent election system: Simple solution: Presidential and congessional candidates should be elected via a draft system like the draft lottery the military once used and the candidates, after meeting the basic educational, citizenship, intellectual requirements, should be weeded down via a grass rootspeople based pre-elections till final candidates are filtered out. Private-Coporate-Industrial-Capital system money shouldn't be allowed a million miles within the election system and any outside contributions to candidates should be illegal, with each final candidate being equally funded out of a public-taxpayer system and granted equal pre-election exposure. If you want to get rid of the situation in which Wall Street owns the government, it has to be rewired from the ground up.

[-] 1 points by earthiling (3) 3 years ago

I agree there has to be another way of electing government officials. I wonder what were the intellectual attributions george bush had that made him president

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

if memory serves me: a MBA from yale. a master's degree in business administration! so much for private paid education.

[-] 1 points by tenderfoot (4) from Watsonville, CA 3 years ago

Agree! The mass media portrays Ows of having no direction but they see things through their world lens, as black, white, left and right. Their largest complaint about ows is it has no concrete demands or single cohesive message. As you said " We are our demands" This is a good thing. Lets not bow to the demands of the media... The 1% would love us to rush into demands so they can easily control it, hijack it by special interests via defined issues and demands.

Let it continue to grow as it is into a powerful diverse group.

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

AMEN! Dont give up! Everyone stay united and focused :] <3 love to you all!!!

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by adamaecompton (32) 3 years ago

sorry i don't know why that font is so big.

[-] 1 points by larocks (414) from Lexington, KY 3 years ago

dont think it should be called a revolution. more like an evolution of society...

[-] 0 points by larryathome (135) from Red Bank, NJ 3 years ago

If you want to make effective change, think about article V of the constitution. http://www.articlevmeeting.info/

[-] 0 points by TheMismatch (50) from Lafayette, IN 3 years ago

But to what end? If all we demand, through our presence and nothing more, is "an end to the status quo", then what to we propose to put up in its place once we've torn it down?

We can't sustain a movement of "This sucks!" without presenting ideas of what to replace it with, otherwise... the entire movement smacks of a child having a tantrum. It might be a just tantrum, but without an idea of how to prevent the injustice, it's still no more than a kid throwing a fit. And I don't want to see Occupy reduced to that.

[-] 3 points by BNB (89) 3 years ago

What do you mean? They are living the answer they are effortlessly presenting. General Assemblies, sharing---that is the replacement--and they ain't waiting for the old to go first. Wise move.

[-] 2 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Yes

Not demanding. Doing.

[-] 0 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

It won't be, unless there too many of us keep insisting on "concrete" demands.

This has been explained many times by many people on these pages. You are free to continue to argue for concrete demands and misrepresent those of us who see wisdom in another approach. If your demands are met, you can then go silent and live your life along side of those who are still dissatisfied by the changes you find acceptable. I wouldn't expect you to do otherwise because you don't (can't or won't) accept another approach.

Thanks for helping get some of the changes we need.

[-] 2 points by debndan (1145) 3 years ago

demands, no. Goals, yes. By comming up with tangible goal OWS can start reaching for those goals. And also to continue it's momentum. Everyone knows the system is broke, and by laying down goals, we can get about fixing them.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Goals!!!!!!

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

Goals are good.

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

well said.

[-] 0 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

people present ideas all the time. that is the beauty of anarchism. you can act on them should you wish. stay engaged making the world what you want it to be and you will have your replacement for the status quo.

You have to work for it though. Stating a demand is not going to solve the problem.

And since OWS is sustaining itself quite well I don't think an about face by reducing itself to a simple protest laying out specific demands is going to make it any more powerful.

[-] 5 points by riethc (1149) 3 years ago

If you don't like to "have demands" why don't we "pose solutions" instead?

OWS has the attention of the mainstream media at the moment but this window of opportunity is closing fast.. We should be getting more "memes", or what I would call "good ideas", out there in public before the the mainstream media spin gets worse or the attention of the public is diverted elsewhere.

We can do this by not only posing the solution(s) but also by explaining how this/these solution(s) would address certain issues of the 99%. It's not that we can solve problems by simply posing solutions (or having our demands met by demanding them, for that matter), but we can get people to rally around the good ideas and grow the movement more, as people latch on to the soundness of these idea(s).

[-] 2 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 3 years ago

I like the idea, but the solutions are the hard part and will take a long time, especially following the process of consensus.

[-] 1 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 3 years ago

Good video, thanks.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 3 years ago

Spread it around. People need to be aware of this and be prepared to act on it.

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Not to pose solutions but to enact them. If you see a problem, take control of it and fix it.

This is revolution. We do not protest and ask for the big boys to take our suggestions or to listen to our demands. We push them out of our way because they are standing in the way of progress.

GA's are small and locally based so the problems they can solve are small, but as the movement grows it will be easier to take control of what we need to solve problems. Streets unclean? Clean them. Starving people? Feed them. Uneducated people? teach them skills so they can work with you. Get to work. People need meaningful work, people need security. This is a rich country with a lot of work to do to face the issues of our time. There are enough jobs for everyone. When this movement grows large enough, we can restructure our nation and give people work to do. They may not all live in McMansions - but their kids will have the opportunity to be educated, and they will have food to eat, and places to live. With our resources it can be done. All we need to do is get the useless 1% out of our way. Any group that just sits on that kind of wealth rather than applying it to solve the astounding human problems of our time is useless. We don't need them. We don't want them. If any of the rich wish to apply their resources to help this movement fine. But work is what will shape the future. If you aren't rolling up your sleeves and getting to work, you are just in the way.

In the meantime the movement is small. The GA's could start governing there areas and providing small scale public services in exchange for material support like food, medical supplies, clothing, shelter etc....

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 3 years ago

I like the idea. Occupy Wall Street is starting to give back to the community already. The more the better, I say.

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

well said. aaronparr.

[-] 1 points by drbob707 (6) from Beach Haven, NJ 3 years ago

Agree! made a similar comment. Afraid that w/o posing solutions the effort will soon become irrelevant.

[-] 4 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

I wanted to introduce a different way of thinking about this:. The movement doesn't need to make demands, because this movement is an assertive process. This movement has the power to effect change. It does not need to ask for it. The OWS does not make demands. We will simply assert our own power to achieve what we desire. The more of us gather to the cause. The more power we have.

Make no demands for others to solve these problems. Assert yourself. Push the fat cats out of the way. Embrace real anarchism. Turn the support network for the occupiers into a cashless economy that can morph into a self sustaining thing through reciprocation.

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

recprocity is good (or bad) what goes around, comes around. pay it forward; respect is earned, (and you can lose it, tomorrow).

[-] 1 points by MadAsHellInTX (598) from Shepherd, TX 3 years ago

Well said, +1 internets for you. :)

[-] 4 points by sizzzle (7) 3 years ago

This blog post speaks eloquently about how we might hold demands. http://www.realitysandwich.com/occupy_wall_street_no_demand_big_enough

[-] 4 points by FlowerPower (4) 3 years ago

'Issuing Demands' misses the point entirely

[-] 3 points by ANDROLOMA (6) 3 years ago

Forget demands... how about a coherent agenda? You can't replace the status quo with vacuum. This movement MUST present a defined goal, or risk having its participants dismissed as anarchists. Then all aims will be crushed by the powers that be, and they will consider themselves justified by such atrocity.

I want the movement to succeed. It won't if everyone fails to realize the nature of power: They have the right to do anything to us we can't stop them from doing, up to and including mass reprisals. Please. This has to end sometime. Give the masters something tangible to concede, or be prepared for even more scorn, and possible authoritarian repression.

Good luck to the movement. Its goal are noble.

[-] 3 points by ediblescape (235) 3 years ago

The OWS movement is a Wiki movement as Wikipedia. It cannot be co-opted. Nobody and no group is the authority..

[-] 3 points by DianaLee (55) from Salt Lake City, UT 3 years ago

Hooray for the OWS standing strong against the liberal namby pambys. These types have done so much destruction to the move for direct democrary. DD can work; it does work.

Up the Revolution; down with the status quo.

Stay clear, stay strong. I love this: "We are our demands."

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

100% agreed. I was just trying to explain to my boss and colleagues that trying to fix the broken system is preposterous because it's such an uphill battle on so many levels, but they insist that changing a few rules will bring the status quo into their lives. I'm not interested in their lives, it's the lives of all those suffering across the globe that care about. Plus, we must create our world, we don't need to ask someone to create if for us.

[-] 1 points by DianaLee (55) from Salt Lake City, UT 3 years ago

Ranger, you make my heart soar today. Many people here in Salt Lake City remain attached to voting and reform. It is an uphill battle to get them to let go.

[-] 3 points by tacschroeder (3) 3 years ago

Our attention span is very short. This much needed movement will become back ground noise unless the amount of people protesting increases 100 times and taking the streets continually. Unless major civil disobedience. I see just a couple of ways that's going to happen, one being the inevitable and that's the collapse of a few of the biggest banks in which the fed will jump in with our grand kids future and bring a greater depression. Another way would be to have a loud simple resonating voice that connects with 90% of the 99% There is not much time. before you know it there's going to be tee shirts sold at walmart with the we are the 99% on them. And mtv videos with v masks and copying the live feed feel. And with our short attention span and desire for entertainment, the movement will be lost.

[-] 2 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Thats why OWS works as an occupation with a very basic and primal message: the rich have too much power. its difficult to ignore people living in your public space and demanding change.

[-] 1 points by Someone (23) 3 years ago

@tacs you are right. i have to say you are right about the inevitable dilution by commercialized copycatism. never thought of THAT jinxing the worx. yer smart.

I pray the hackers get some real dirt on highly placed criminals and release it. people get pissed when they find out they've been conned by arrogant psychos.

That's what I think will crack the machine.

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 3 years ago

cynical but true.

[-] 3 points by Bender (98) from Meriden, CT 3 years ago

i thought there was something fishy about that group.

[-] 2 points by dryquietwar (14) from San Francisco, CA 3 years ago

"This is to call for an end of the status quo."

Unfortunately, problem identification is insufficient. Saying and wishing is not the same as accomplishing.

Do you really expect Goldman Sachs to close its doors because you sit in a plaza?

A movement is meaningful when it is seen to effect change or is a change.

The fact that DWG formed from OWS is the success. It has spawned part of the public to take action. They are part of a collective reaction.

Are you already segmenting social dissent into ideological pools?

[-] 2 points by little99percent (3) 3 years ago

It is not only time to make demands but to gel it down to one simple axiomatic solution: TAKE THE MONEY OUT OF AMERICAN POLITICS AND DELETE FOREIGN\PRIVATE CONTROL OVER THE FEDERAL RESERVE. The one factor that allowed Bernanke and his goons to prompt their "elected" puppet to "bail out" the money glutting banks and sell us and our grandchildren into economic slavery was the fact that presidents and congress are elected on a money dependent election system: Simple solution: Presidential and congessional candidates should be elected via a draft system like the draft lottery the military once used and the candidates, after meeting the basic educational, citizenship, intellectual requirements, should be weeded down via a grass roots\people based pre-elections till final candidates are filtered out. Coporate\Industrial|Capital system money shouldn't be allowed a million miles within the election system and any outside contributions to candidate should be illegal, with each final candidate being equally funded and granted exposure. If you want to get rid of the situation in which Wall Street owns the government, it has to be rewired from the ground up.

[-] 1 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

really agree about boiling things down. it seems like campaign financing, big money corporate lobbying and corporate media domination of the election process interlock and have our democracy in a vise grip. these seem to be the basic tactics by which our democracy has been privatized.

[-] 2 points by FHampton (309) 3 years ago

What exactly does "we are our demands" mean? To me, it is vapid, formalistic, grandiose and naive all at the same time. Reminiscent of the vague sloganeering of professional politicians.

Demands, or if you like, a program of action, should be sharp. They should perform the dual function of energizing the people and criticizing the ruling class. Demands in and of themselves do not signal capitulation. They signal political engagement and can be as radical or as independent as you'd like them to be. The movement needs to begin distinguishing itself by naming substantive goals; some of them may be attainable in the short term; some of them may be long term or even revolutionary. However, they must be articulated as goals if this movement is to have any staying power and effect, other than just getting people to have a good time and think about issues. It's time to kick things up to the next level.

[-] 1 points by severansus (4) 3 years ago

agree.

[-] 2 points by davidversusgoliath (3) 3 years ago

One simple demand was easily understood by all and would be accepted by the vast majority of Americans. What this group stands for is unimportant if it cannot capture the hearts and minds of the majority of Americans. Nothing important will come of this until groups like the AARP support this movement. Without good strategy implemented by all, this movement is a blip that will be marginalized as time goes on. Goliath knows what he wants and knows how to act to get what he wants. He is stronger than you. You won't defeat him and no demands will be met for anyone. The rock is 'one simple demand'--have POTUS appoint a commission to develop strategy to end the flow of money that corrupts our government. The sling is all people supporting this one simple demand. The result would be that large corporations would be broken-up and limits set on personal wealth....so that people who wish to be worshipped like a god--the billionaires--would have lilmits put on their wealth. Then Goliath would be contained, but not killed. If cannot convince my father that your cause is worthwhile and you stand for something that he too believes in, then all your work will be for nothing. There are people among you who work for Goliath that are well trained and highly paid to undermine this movement. They will be speaking out against common-sense and reason in an attempt to destroy what this movement stands for. They will not like what I have just written, because they know a good strategy would be successful. The current strategy of "We are our demands" will fail. Moral superiority mean nothing because the winner of the struggle writes the history. We know the story of David and Goliath from David's point of view--Goliath's people are extinct. So it will be with this movement if it fails.

[-] 1 points by severansus (4) 3 years ago

This is true... "Goliath knows what he wants and knows how to act to get it" and "If cannot convince my father that your cause is worthwhile and you stand for something that he too believes in, then this will be for nothing". Seize the day for us all, we're with you. This is the time to draw a clear design.

Let it be big... on the scale of a national constitutional convention, a great uniting event that picks up a historic thread and goes forward with it.

[-] 2 points by eidos (285) 3 years ago

Bloomberg Business Week coverage: article and video

http://www.businessweek.com/debateroom/archives/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_the_right_focus.html

VIdeo is balanced. Describes protesters as "smart" and "well organized"

Said there were "very eloquent" not an "unruly mob" Said she was impressed.

Says lot of merchants near Zuccotti Park are sympathetic, though some are doing better, some worse because of the occupation.

[-] 1 points by cpowell (1) 2 years ago

This is a good illustration of how demands can be a problem. Neither of these demands would change who is controlling the planet. The financiers that own the banks which own the Fed have used it to print money and buy the key corporations (147 corps control them), governments, military and intelligence services, media and voting machines. So, control over the creation of money must be returned to the public. It is a sovereign right. The Constitution says only Congress can coin (print) money and regulate the credit; however, the Congress illegally gave this away to the banks that own the Fed. We need a network of public banks, from cities, counties, states, and at the national level. Our tax revenues must overseen by public agencies acting in the public interest. If this doesn't happen, the financiers will maintain their power by printing their bank notes and charging us interest to use them. http://www.squidoo.com/discount-mortgage

[-] 1 points by gracchusbabeuf (3) 2 years ago

Revolutions cannot afford simplistic thinking. Danger lies in every direction. To argue that making demands is inherently antirevolutionary, and that making demands isn't is silly. The Russian Revolution had the slogan of Bread, Land, and Peace and it brought down the czar.

Look, putting together a laundry list of demands won't make those demands happen. Least of all a list of timid reformist demands which will coopt our movement the way the Tea Party was coopted.

But goals can be radical and visionary, they need not be reformist and system maintaining. Goals and demands can help to focus movements, articulate strategies, mobilize and inspire activists, build coalitions, and increase solidarity.

We have lived too long in a unidimensional world, with no vision of a better future. It is time for us to articulate that vision, to paint a picture of a better tomorrow.

Just tossing around a buffet menu of ad hoc demands does not a revolution make.

And those of you who fancy that you are being good anarchists by floundering around, need to go study historical cases of anarchist political action. From Bakunin to the IWW to the Spaniards and the French syndicalists, anarchists had goals and visions.

[-] 1 points by makushrepresent (1) 2 years ago

except for the part where you should stop blaming the one percent for you shit life just because they work harder than you

[-] 1 points by Zrinyi (1) 3 years ago

Everybody says there is this RACE problem. Everybody says this RACE problem will be solved when the third world pours into EVERY White country and ONLY into White countries.

The Netherlands and Belgium are just as crowded as Japan or Taiwan, but nobody says Japan or Taiwan will solve this RACE problem by bringing in millions of third worlders and quote assimilating unquote with them.

Everybody says the final solution to this RACE problem is for EVERY White country and ONLY White countries to “assimilate,” i.e., intermarry, with all those non-Whites.

What if I said there was this RACE problem and this RACE problem would be solved only if hundreds of millions of non-Blacks were brought into EVERY Black country and ONLY into Black countries?

How long would it take anyone to realize I’m not talking about a RACE problem. I am talking about the final solution to the BLACK problem?

And how long would it take any sane Black man to notice this and what kind of psycho Black man wouldn’t object to this?

But if I tell that obvious truth about the ongoing program of genocide against my race, the White race, Liberals and respectable conservatives agree that I am a naziwhowantstokillsixmillionjews.

They say they are anti-racist. What they are is anti-White.

Anti-racist is a code word for anti-White.

[-] 1 points by erichbf (2) 3 years ago

DEMAND ZERO

Occupy Wall Street could actually use a demand that is straight-forward and would have broad support. Accomplishing this would give the OWS movement credibility and moral connectivity. The demand should be one that is concrete and would advance the OWS agenda while morally isolating its opponents. The bast demand for this purpose would be:

A constitutional amendment that would eliminate any of the benefits of the Bill of Rights from accruing to corporations, and simply state that the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights only accrue to natural born persons is exactly the kind of demand that OWS needs to make. It is a simple demand, and one that if acted upon would dramatically change the political landscape by allowing all kinds of limits on corporations. Such an action is a precondition for dismantling incipient corporate fascism before it takes root.

Any one who opposed that would so clearly isolated themselves that they would be committing political suicide. Also, such an amendment would have concrete results, for example, overturning Citizens United.

I like the catchy name Demand Zero, too.

http://enigmafoundry.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/demand-zero/

[-] 1 points by davidversusgoliath (3) 3 years ago

AMENDMENT XVIII

(proposed)

Section 1.
Congress shall not fund, award monies, or, in any other conceivable way bestow financial
advantage to any entity or individual (including state governments) engaged in any activity  in     which  the highest compensated person(s) exceed the lowest compensated person(s) by a   multiple of 50.  It matters not at all what country the lowest compensated or the highest   compensated person(s) reside or work.  Calculation of compensation will be used in the  denomination of the lowest compensated person(s) if different from the highest paid person(s).  The highest compensated shall be converted to match the denomination of the lowest  compensated.

Section 2.
Remedy for infractions shall be a complete refund of government monies plus 20% of original 
amount.
[-] 1 points by tpauldewitt (3) 3 years ago

With no list of goals and no leadership your movement is doomed. I am one of the 99% and find your lawlessness, calls for revolution, and your widespread narcissism, selfishness, and unwarrented sense of entitlement appalling. Not to mention that you demand the 99% pay the taxes for extra police to monitor your lawlessness.

You really should be occupying Washington as it is the politicians, bought or not, who set up the rules by which businesses must operate. Your problem is with politicians hungry for power and control. I am no fan of big corporations but they will do as the environment allows. That is the nature of the beast. Income inquality and too much special interest control of government and our lives occurs because government has acquired the power to lord over our lives and control everything we do or say. When power grows, efforts to influence those who hold it send money and influence their way. Get the power out of a powerful central government, return to our limited government founding principles and most of these problems will end. But aimless, anarchic mobs demanding they be offered everything because, well, they just feel like they deserve it, and then threatening rev olution if they don't get what they want, is a dangerous and losing proposition. You are deluding yourselves. And you will fail at whatever mission it is you think you have. Because other than screaming and emitting filth in public I see nothing that you have to oiffer other than infantile, ignorants.

And it's all just a lot of politics and hot air.

Sincerely,

Thomas Paul DeWitt

[-] 1 points by tpauldewitt (3) 3 years ago

With no list of goals and no leadership your movement is doomed. I am one of the 99% and find your lawlessness, calls for revolution, and your widespread narcissism, selfishness, and unwarrented sense of entitlement appalling. Not to mention that you demand the 99% pay the taxes for extra police to monitor your lawlessness.

You really should be occupying Washington as it is the politicians, bought or not, who set up the rules by which businesses must operate. Your problem is with politicians hungry for power and control. I am no fan of big corporations but they will do as the environment allows. That is the nature of the beast. Income inquality and too much special interest control of government and our lives occurs because government has acquired the power to lord over our lives and control everything we do or say. When power grows, efforts to influence those who hold it send money and influence their way. Get the power out of a powerful central government, return to our limited government founding principles and most of these problems will end. But aimless, anarchic mobs demanding they be offered everything because, well, they just feel like they deserve it, and then threatening rev olution if they don't get what they want, is a dangerous and losing proposition. You are deluding yourselves. And you will fail at whatever mission it is you think you have. Because other than screaming and emitting filth in public I see nothing that you have to oiffer other than infantile, ignorants.

And it's all just a lot of politics and hot air.

Sincerely,

Thomas Paul DeWitt

[-] 1 points by tpauldewitt (3) 3 years ago

With no list of goals and no leadership your movement is doomed. I am one of the 99% and find your lawlessness, calls for revolution, and your widespread narcissism, selfishness, and unwarrented sense of entitlement appalling. Not to mention that you demand the 99% pay the taxes for extra police to monitor your lawlessness.

You really should be occupying Washington as it is the politicians, bought or not, who set up the rules by which businesses must operate. Your problem is with politicians hungry for power and control. I am no fan of big corporations but they will do as the environment allows. That is the nature of the beast. Income inquality and too much special interest control of government and our lives occurs because government has acquired the power to lord over our lives and control everything we do or say. When power grows, efforts to influence those who hold it send money and influence their way. Get the power out of a powerful central government, return to our limited government founding principles and most of these problems will end. But aimless, anarchic mobs demanding they be offered everything because, well, they just feel like they deserve it, and then threatening rev olution if they don't get what they want, is a dangerous and losing proposition. You are deluding yourselves. And you will fail at whatever mission it is you think you have. Because other than screaming and emitting filth in public I see nothing that you have to oiffer other than infantile, ignorants.

And it's all just a lot of politics and hot air.

Sincerely,

Thomas Paul DeWitt

[-] 1 points by pfolman (28) from Long Beach, CA 3 years ago
[-] 1 points by rsmills (2) 3 years ago

Manifesto of the 99% We the people are enjoined to form a more perfect union, to establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, to promote prosperity for all and to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and future generations.

It is up to our generation to restore these values in today’s imbalanced society.

In the debacle of our present situation, a new paradigm is necessary to renew the foundations of our society. A return to the basics of what makes the United States the greatest engine for prosperity the world has ever known. The country that once beckoned the world toward freedom, democracy and dignity has become the laughing stock. The greed of Wall Street with the support of our Government has become the millstone around the neck of our nation. The moneyed elite of our society has changed from being apart of the team that built an economy that raised the lives of all men with ample profits for themselves to a Gambler, who only wants to keep score through the accumulation of money, ever screaming for more profits for themselves at the expense of the people they pretend to serve. The greatest expansion of wealth has always come from the growth of the middle class. More job growth comes from businesses of less then 20 employees than any other segment of the economy. The 99% of the population that controls only a small portion of the nation’s wealth contributes the majority of the cash and all of the energy that drives the economy. The middle class historically spends every dollar they have which is reinvested over and over again each and every day in wages, goods and services driving the economy to prosperity. Accumulated wealth that is only used to keep score, yet produce nothing has become the bane of the nation. Controlling the government, media, and financial institutions through the consolidation of wealth has given reign over the majority to a powerful few who no longer have a moral compass to share with those who have given freely from the fruits of their labor.

Be It Mandated: 1.Abolish Wall Streets ability to gamble with our money and to be Too Big to Fail 2.Abolish all Lobby’s 3.Abolish all Campaign Contributions 4.A 90% flat tax on Businesses that are not invested in companies that produce goods or services but are Profiteering from Money Scams 5.Re-establish the Fairness Doctrine to Media 6.Remove the burden of Medical Care and Pensions from Business and hand it over to our Government 7.Free Universal Education both Universities and Vocational, to be repaid by 2 years in AmeriCorps, Peace Corps, or the Military 8.Rebuild our Infrastructure
9.All Buildings to be Carbon Neutral by 2050 10.All Vehicles to be electric or have a minimum gas mileage of 250 miles to a gallon by 2050

R.S. Mills

[-] 1 points by rsmills (2) 3 years ago

Manifesto of the 99% We the people are enjoined to form a more perfect union, to establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, to promote prosperity for all and to secure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and future generations.

It is up to our generation to restore these values in today’s imbalanced society.

In the debacle of our present situation, a new paradigm is necessary to renew the foundations of our society. A return to the basics of what makes the United States the greatest engine for prosperity the world has ever known. The country that once beckoned the world toward freedom, democracy and dignity has become the laughing stock. The greed of Wall Street with the support of our Government has become the millstone around the neck of our nation. The moneyed elite of our society has changed from being apart of the team that built an economy that raised the lives of all men with ample profits for themselves to a Gambler, who only wants to keep score through the accumulation of money, ever screaming for more profits for themselves at the expense of the people they pretend to serve. The greatest expansion of wealth has always come from the growth of the middle class. More job growth comes from businesses of less then 20 employees than any other segment of the economy. The 99% of the population that controls only a small portion of the nation’s wealth contributes the majority of the cash and all of the energy that drives the economy. The middle class historically spends every dollar they have which is reinvested over and over again each and every day in wages, goods and services driving the economy to prosperity. Accumulated wealth that is only used to keep score, yet produce nothing has become the bane of the nation. Controlling the government, media, and financial institutions through the consolidation of wealth has given reign over the majority to a powerful few who no longer have a moral compass to share with those who have given freely from the fruits of their labor.

Be It Mandated: 1.Abolish Wall Streets ability to gamble with our money and to be Too Big to Fail 2.Abolish all Lobby’s 3.Abolish all Campaign Contributions 4.A 90% flat tax on Businesses that are not invested in companies that produce goods or services but are Profiteering from Money Scams 5.Re-establish the Fairness Doctrine to Media 6.Remove the burden of Medical Care and Pensions from Business and hand it over to our Government 7.Free Universal Education both Universities and Vocational, to be repaid by 2 years in AmeriCorps, Peace Corps, or the Military 8.Rebuild our Infrastructure
9.All Buildings to be Carbon Neutral by 2050 10.All Vehicles to be electric or have a minimum gas mileage of 250 miles to a gallon by 2050

R.S. Mills

[-] 1 points by kankan (1) 3 years ago

Why does NYCGA maintain a link to the99declaration working group given this statement by OWS? It makes it appear that NYCGA and OWS support the working group's existence merely because a link to the group exists on nycga.net.

[-] 1 points by djapollo2k (10) 3 years ago

The OWS NYC General Assembly seems to be structured on the anarchist notion of general assembly, with David Graeber as the force behind establishing this assembly. If you don't know who Graeber is I suggest you all do some research, because there is increasing awareness outside your GA that he is some sort of "Anti-Leader," as Business Week calls him. Google his name. He's a former Yale prof and anthropologist who told Business Week in an interview: <<What happened next sounds like an anarchist parable. Along with Kohso, the two recruited several other people disgruntled with the proceedings, then walked to the south end of the park and began to hold their own GA, getting down to the business of planning the Sept. 17 occupation. The original dozen or so people gradually swelled, despite the efforts of the event’s planners to bring them back to the rally. The tug of war lasted until late in the evening, but eventually all of the 50 or so people remaining at Bowling Green had joined the insurgent general assembly. “The groups that were organizing the rally, they also came along,” recalls Kohso. “Then everyone stayed very, very late to organize what committees we needed.”>> Now I was under the impression that this community was much more than the intentional communities structured on Graeber's model (based on research from tribal organization in Madagascar). I thought, using the enormous power of the internet, this was finally an opportunity for many to contribute ideas and ideals that would evolve into positive changes and direction that will free all brothers and sisters from the control of the few. It seems the NY General Assembly has set itself up as the sole arbiter of who has what "authority" and will ignore the hard work of others to change this specific system in favor of local anarchist collectives? I would like to see this discussion here.

Finally, I think many of Graeber's ideas are worth considering, like debt forgiveness or "Jubilee," an ancient custom. Nor just student debt, but mortgage debt and the slavery of debt itself.

In fighting seems to be developing between those interested in some goal other than the establishment and maintenance of local general assemblies and those wanting something concrete to offer other Americans. Best watch you occupiers don't lose sight of the needs of others by spending too much time talking to yourselves:)

[-] 1 points by FogBelter (1) 3 years ago

That there aren't any official demands should be reinforced. I found a commenter on HuffPo citing a post of demands in the forum as the official declaration. That there have been no demands arrived at or presented must be clearly emphasized repeatedly or this movement will find itself commandeered. Just a note.

[-] 1 points by amoriendi (1) 3 years ago

Not having demands really opens the doors to empowering our own individual areas. It gives room to educate the masses and it keeps the movement going. The media may not have one slogan to hang onto and there may be no collective 'bargaining chip', but it makes ppl curious as to what this is all about. then those curious ppl educate themselves and come up with ways to change the communities around them and the government and unfair corporate practices. A sort of trickle up effect. Let's face it without the movement of each individual we have nothing. It seems that this is the only way to involve ppl and create change.

[-] 1 points by tzj (7) 3 years ago

Okay this action is notable! BUT we need specific action to AMEND the Supreme Court's ruling called "CITIZENS UNITED." This bit of work is the actual heart of the new, organized, 1% assault on the political system in the country. This one bit of legislation took our democracy and political system and handed them over lock-stock-and barrel to the ruling wealthy elite. Want a democracy?? AMEND "CITIZENS UNITED." Make it an ELECTION ISSUE. Write your congress man today so they will. FOCUS AND ACT!

[-] 1 points by dittybows (1) 3 years ago

Without demands we will get nowhere. There is one demand that will begin the needed changes - no private donations to political campaigns, individuals or organizations - take the money out of politics. Politicians will then make decisions based on the needs of the people, not the needs of the rich and powerful.

[-] 1 points by PublicBanking (3) from Boulder, CO 3 years ago

I agree that not having demands and leaders is a good strategy. It keeps the movement from being hijacked and it keeps the world-wide teaching moving forward. I would like to say, though, that unless we change who controls the creation of money, none of the other excellent demands will have a long-term effect. For me, the reason that this movement started on Wall Street is that this is the location of the "too big to fail" banks that own the Federal Reserve (which controls the creation of our currency and which is also, mostly, the world's reserve currency). This has allowed the financiers who own these banks to buy and control all the key corporations and governments (including military and intelligence services), as well as the media and the voting machines. So, unless we take back control over our currency and credit (which is assigned to the Congress by the Constitution, and which they illegally gave away to the financiers in 1913), then the financiers will continue to have the power to buy or attack anyone who disagrees with their debt-slavery system. The way to do this is the same as when the original American colonists did it: public banks--at a municipal, county, state, and national level. This was taken away by the European bankers and we've never had it back, except for a brief period when Lincoln printed greenbacks to pay for the Union Army. Since 2010, 14 states have introduced legislation to study or implement publicly owned banks (overseen by public agencies that leverage our money in the public interest). More states are considering this, as well as three cities. For more information, see http://www.publicbankinginstitute.org. Thanks!

[-] 1 points by gimpyirv (1) 3 years ago

Should we start offering solutions yet, or just keep expressing our indignation? We're all agreed on need of jobs, so here's an idea:

It is not only imperative, but entirely feasible, to rebuild and expand this nation's infrastructure without drastically reducing federal spending or raising taxes on anyone. We have simply forgotten—or deliberately ignored—successful historical models: toll roads, undersea cables, canals and railroads, being the most obvious. Such costly enterprises attracted huge sums of private capital and produced enormous returns to early investors while employing hordes of workers in engineering, manufacturing, construction and support occupations. Schemes of the robber barons—absent their rapacity—offer both a short and long term breakout from our persistent stall. My proposal rests on the fact that trillions of dollars of investment capital sit idle on the books of industrial corporations, financial institutions and private portfolios, much of it overseas. Holders of those assets have no incentive to employ them while demand for goods remains weak, or to subject foreign profits to existing tax rates by repatriating them. Only with expectation of exceptional returns will those entities release their holdings for productive use. It is safe to assume that in owing first duty to shareholders, corporations would choose, with sufficient enticement, to invest in their native country in preference to other states. The same can be said of other rich organizations and individuals. Graduated rates of return in favor of those first in and those committing to longest terms would accelerate the subscription of capital and expedite starts on the earliest projects. I propose an Infrastructure Renewal and Modernization Act (IRMA) to form a government-owned corporation whose purposes are, first, to rebuild and expand the nation's infrastructure; second, to reward investors for releasing their funds in service to the first purpose; and third, to reemploy millions of jobless in public works as well as construction, heavy equipment and high-tech industries. The sole federal financial obligation would be an interim sinking fund to cover bond interest, overhead and retirement of the sinking fund until heavy user-fee revenue kicked in. In operation, the corporation would sell IRMA bonds to finance the program. It would reward contracts for transportation and other projects in all regions. Completed projects would generate user-fees to service tax exempt bond interest and distribute the remainder to federal, state and proximate local jurisdictions. For example, traffic counting nodes (TCN’s) on highways would electronically identify traffic from signals emitted by passing vehicles. Collected data would be translated into periodic billings to vehicle owners. An initial share of revenue would go to investors. The states, counties and cities would receive pro rata shares of the remainder in proportion to road miles within respective jurisdictions. Federal revenue would swell with the expanding economy. As with emission control requirements, vehicle registration would be subject to verification of a functional signal transmitter and on-time payments of user fees. Unit cost of transmitters (employed for all facilities subject to user-fees) should be extremely low, given the scale of production. Citizen objection to user fees can be allayed by tax offsets—reduced fuel taxes and similar measures. In view of the damage that globalization and financial institution misdeeds have caused to the economy, it may seem paradoxical to look to the private sector for escape from stagnation. But harnessing the powers of finance and industry has always been key in meeting great challenges. IRMA will summon private enterprise to accomplish what government can only facilitate—if it has the imagination and the will. Senate Minority Leader, Mitch McConnell, has proclaimed, "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president." Perhaps such partisanship will yield to a plan favorable to interests of all constituencies.

[-] 1 points by TheOldFart (12) from Three Forks, Mt 3 years ago

I've decided to get involved.

In my opinion, Howard Zinn's "A Peoples History of the United States" should be required reading so that people understand how far back "our" government has been used to protect the rich individuals and corporations. I think it goes even beyond simple campaign reform, I think we need to get rid of the electoral college that allows candidates with as little as 27% of the popular vote to win presidential elections. Those candidates do not represent us nor do they represent the interests of our country. Those candidates represent the worst aspects of capitalism. I'm not anti-capitalist, I am pro ethics and I am pro democracy. Those things are not incompatible with capitalism, only with the crass and anti-democratic corporate capitalism. The USA is being left so far behind other countries now it's pathetic. We're failing on every front, developing our own renewable energy technology, reforming education using proven methods, providing at least minimal health care to all. We're failing on all those fronts simply because the govt and corporations want to keep us ignorant and completely dependent on them for our health care, retirement benefits, and old energy sources. Who here hasn't had to stay at a job because you know that without that job you cannot possibly afford health insurance? That's why the corporations fight a single-payer health care system with tooth and nail because if we had that, workers could afford to tell the big corporations to pound sand and take more satisfying jobs with smaller companies or work as independents. I get a little long winded but this has been a long time coming. I came of age in the 70's and I've seen all this shit before and it's time we make fundamental changes to end the corruption and the pointless wars and this out of control government repeatedly ignoring the will and well being of the public.

[-] 1 points by buckjones (1) 3 years ago

I have question, there is lots of talk here about corporate lobbyist, but what about union lobbyist? How about the unions keeping Boeing from building 787 in SC. There is lots of blame to go around for the mess we are in. The focus on 1% is interesting, what about the guy in Texas who has spent a lifetime working his ass off on a little Ranch in Karnes County and all of sudden there is a oil boom and he is now cashing $1,000,000.00 checks he is now in the 1% but has work all his life and just got lucky. What about the guy who starts a small business works his ass off and makes good money over time, but has a little growth spurt and now makes $360,000.00 in a given year he is now part of the 1% but he employs people works everyday and does some good for community why would you vilify him? Those are the stories of the vast majority of Americans in the 1%, those bankers as evil as you may think they are don't make up that majority.

[-] 1 points by independentmind (227) 3 years ago

Here is the fact among people I talk to in my town:

They don't support you. Not even close. I don't know if you watch the news... but ya'll got a lot of bad press going on. People who don't take the extra step see only Nazi endorsements, poop parties and mortgage strikes (which I really don't hope I find on this page down the road in my searches).

But they don't openly oppose you because they have no idea what you are really about.

That's the only reason.

You are holding a lot of people by the strings of hope. You're doing the same thing Obama did during his campaign... only he actually made claims regarding what he was about.

You need a message. And you need one soon. People will lose interest otherwise.

Personally, I recommend something in the ballpark of getting our elected officials out of Wall Street's pockets. It's something everyone (everyone) will get behind... less politicians and Wall Street. But that's ok.

Start there, the rest will follow.

[-] 1 points by Howtodoit (1232) 3 years ago

Demands are all over the place. Here's one way to solve our first Demand or Mission: Reform Wall Street by Reforming Congress:

Here's how we can easily Reform Wall Street: Take away their powers "Once Again." And the best way to get this done is a Million People March to Capitol Hill!

For example, "We are here Congress because we want you to REINSTATE the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wX which was created to help save our country from the Great Depression by preventing investment companies, banks, and insurance companies from merging and becoming large brokerage firms; instead of just being Banks and Insurance companies -- Congress why can't you learn a history lesson from 1929? The current system doesn't work, once again, except for the 1%. Btw, why did most of you vote for the major repeal of G-S Act in 1999? Shattering The Glass-Steagall Act: http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act (2nd story here)

Think about where we are now, it all started in 1999 with lawmakers like Senator Phil Gramm who helped create legal gambling casinos for our banks: CNN's The Ten Most Responsible for Economy Collapse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKQOxr2wBZQ&feature=related

Furthermore Congress, we also want you to CHANGE the Commodities Future Modernization Act of 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000 BACK to where it was before 2000, which since has deregulated energy markets and consequently allowed for such scams as The Enron Loophole; whereas in the early 2000's Enron Corp. was charging 250 bucks plus for a kilowatt hour...They all when to jail for this. But, the Enron loophole is still not closed, for example, allowing speculators to resell barrels of oil over and over again before it reaches the gas station owner. It's basically legal gambling at our expense. What were those lawmakers thinking then? What are you thinking now? Either do the right thing, or you're part of the 1%."

So why are oil prices high? The Enron Loophole. Former Head of U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission speaks to Congress on the high price of oil--and he's not happy about energy deregulations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related

Rolling Stones Reporter Matt Taibbi: Truth about Goldman Sachs--how they have cornered the markets--basically, The Enron Loophole and the shattering of Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw

Let's get focused and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, they got it right 1933, we don't need to REINVENT the wheel because bringing this Act back will help create an even playing field once again....and let's finally Close the Enron Loophole, which allowed Enron to charge what they wanted for energy; they went to jail for this; but no one closed the loophole, why? Re-election Monies from the big brokerage firms and oil companies! The writing is on the wall.

Let's get organized and reinstate these critical financial reforms with a Million People March to Capitol Hill!

Maybe call it: "The Million People March to Capital Hill to Reinstate The Glass-Steagall Act and to Finally Close The Enron Loophole"

[-] 1 points by mhirsch (3) 3 years ago

You wrote: "the push for demands is an attempt to undercut the movement, to package it into a soundbite that can be manipulated (i.e. disarmed) by the media and the political class." Wrong! The push for demands is an attempt to spread the occupation's influence. Not one demand formulated would have been aired without agreement by the General Assembly. And the idea that demands in and of themselves are conciliatory if not a denial of the goals of the occupation is itself a point iof view the occupation has never endorsed. We're supposed to be a freely associating body, yet when advocating for telling the public what we want--or even deciding democratically on what we want-- is proscribed by a handful of people and without sanction from the General Assembly, then we're digging our own graves, demands or no demands. Think demands are counter-revolutionary? Or that no demands are inherently subversive of the capitalist system? Argue that point! Don't bureaucratically silence those who disagree. Or tell fairy stories about what the demands group has done. Because It DOES work by consensus; it is as much a part of the Occupation as are any other working groups. And it has NEVER spoken in the Occupation's name. Yes, no single person or group has the right to speak for the whole Occupation. So why are the no-demands folks doing just that?

[-] 1 points by mhirsch (3) 3 years ago

You wrote: "the push for demands is an attempt to undercut the movement, to package it into a soundbite that can be manipulated (i.e. disarmed) by the media and the political class." Wrong! The push for demands is an attempt to spread the occupation's influence. Not one demand formulated would have been aired without agreement by the General Assembly. And the idea that demands in and of themselves are conciliatory if not a denial of the goals of the occupation is itself a point iof view the occupation has never endorsed. We're supposed to be a freely associating body, yet when advocating for telling the public what we want--or even deciding democratically on what we want-- is proscribed by a handful of people and without sanction from the General Assembly, then we're digging our own graves, demands or no demands. Think demands are counter-revolutionary? Or that no demands are inherently subversive of the capitalist system? Argue that point! Don't bureaucratically silence those who disagree. Or tell fairy stories about what the demands group has done. Because It DOES work by consensus; it is as much a part of the Occupation as are any other working groups. And it has NEVER spoken in the Occupation's name. Yes, no single person or group has the right to speak for the whole Occupation. So why are the no-demands folks doing just that?

[-] 1 points by mhirsch (3) 3 years ago

You wrote: "the push for demands is an attempt to undercut the movement, to package it into a soundbite that can be manipulated (i.e. disarmed) by the media and the political class." Wrong! The push for demands is an attempt to spread the occupation's influence. Not one demand formulated would have been aired without agreement by the General Assembly. And the idea that demands in and of themselves are conciliatory if not a denial of the goals of the occupation is itself a point iof view the occupation has never endorsed. We're supposed to be a freely associating body, yet when advocating for telling the public what we want--or even deciding democratically on what we want-- is proscribed by a handful of people and without sanction from the General Assembly, then we're digging our own graves, demands or no demands. Think demands are counter-revolutionary? Or that no demands are inherently subversive of the capitalist system? Argue that point! Don't bureaucratically silence those who disagree. Or tell fairy stories about what the demands group has done. Because It DOES work by consensus; it is as much a part of the Occupation as are any other working groups. And it has NEVER spoken in the Occupation's name. Yes, no single person or group has the right to speak for the whole Occupation. So why are the no-demands folks doing just that?

[-] 1 points by LoyolaPete (2) 3 years ago

The object of each point below seems ordered to the singular idea of "conflict-of-interest". Although many are plausible proposals in light of current events, the effectiveness of each doesn't address the root cause and therefore may vary over time.

Instead, a recuse law would prohibit any Congressperson from voting on, arguing for, or participating in any legislative action for which they have received compensation, including but not limited to campaign contributions. While this is not sufficient in force-closing all back-door agreements and fraternal-handshake guarantees, our republic would have stopped one form of cancerous corruption metastasizing throughout.

Although planted prior to any of our generation being born, the root cause began with the repeal of the Equal Time Law (http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2053) in 1987, which in turn helped to raise the cost of campaigning to an astounding level. This is why the first phone call a newly elected rep. receives reinforces the ethos of Congress; "your first job is to fund raise". Therefore, the now obvious incentives for greed (dare we say avarice?) avail the necessity of a recuse law.

[-] 1 points by hermest (2) 3 years ago

It would be extremely naive for anyone to believe that each of the occupy wall street movements have NOT been strategically infiltrated by US intelligence operatives (like every other similar movement throughout history) with the direct objective of disrupting the movement's focus and mission, destroying its credibility, preventing unification and organization and perhaps most importantly, splintering and suppressing any clear, meaningful message that might drive REAL and beneficial change.

It would be even more naive to believe that the reporters for the corporate-run, prostitute-national-press would NOT be fully aware of this tactical infiltration and take any position or report anything outside of the corporate protocol of discrediting and disrupting the movement.

While most intelligent Americans understand this, the media continues the charade in their coverage as if the American public are stupid.

That said, here are a few CLEAR, obtainable goals that the OWS movement is actually demanding yet interestingly, have failed to get any coverage by the media...

  • Demand that US corps bring back the 10 million jobs which have been outsourced over the last 10 years to India, China, Latin America and ALL other 3rd-world nations that have served as a boon for US corporations in their efforts to seek cheap, global-slave-labor while applying downward pressure on American middle-class wages as well as destroying the US tax and consumer base. Due to this, the revenue from 10 million quality jobs is now being spent into competing, 3rd world economies as opposed to the US economy.

  • Demand that policy makers (Congress & Presidency) pass legislation which makes it a crime of high-treason for any U.S. corp to send a single job or production facility beyond U.S. borders if their product or service has any ACTUAL penetration into U.S. markets.

  • Demand that policy makers pass legislation to place tariffs on any nation where there is a trade deficit for the US that wholly balances those deficits. This prevents nations from using currency manipulation to subsidize their exports thereby causing US manufacturing jobs to disappear. The sole reason that tariffs have NOT been implemented all these decades is because it would also force large US corps who send jobs overseas to pay those tariffs as well, thereby eliminating any monetary benefit for them to use global slave labor in the development of their products. US corps have lobbied heavily over decades to prevent the use of tariffs and the outcome has been the complete destruction of America's manufacturing base.

  • Demand that policy makers put an end (legislatively) to all outsourcing, off-shoring and insourcing practices and officially declare them un-American and traitorous activities.

Outsourcing, off-shoring and in-sourcing (H1B guest workers), collectively have fastly become a very real and profound national security threat to the United States of America! No other event or act of war throughout the history of the nation has caused more economic damage to America and its tax revinue base or has devastated the financial well-being of American citizens the way that the wholesale outsourcing of US jobs has!!! If one can think of any other catastrophic event that can top the resulting economic turmoil that outsourcing over the last decade has caused, Americans are all ears! As long as we are still sending our young men & women to fight in global wars then America is still an individual nation with economic, military, intelligence and other strategic NATIONAL interests which puts us in direct competition (especially economically) with ALL other nations! The so called multi-national corps can put that in their pipe and smoke me!!!! This isn't a globalist world as long as our children are still dying in wars fighting for corporate interests!!!

[-] 1 points by hermest (2) 3 years ago

It would be extremely naive for anyone to believe that each of the occupy wall street movements have NOT been strategically infiltrated by US intelligence operatives (like every other similar movement throughout history) with the direct objective of disrupting the movement's focus and mission, destroying its credibility, preventing unification and organization and perhaps most importantly, splintering and suppressing any clear, meaningful message that might drive REAL and beneficial change.

It would be even more naive to believe that the reporters for the corporate-run, prostitute-national-press would NOT be fully aware of this tactical infiltration and take any position or report anything outside of the corporate protocol of discrediting and disrupting the movement.

While most intelligent Americans understand this, the media continues the charade in their coverage as if the American public are stupid.

That said, here are a few CLEAR, obtainable goals that the OWS movement is actually demanding yet interestingly, have failed to get any coverage by the media...

  • Demand that US corps bring back the 10 million jobs which have been outsourced over the last 10 years to India, China, Latin America and ALL other 3rd-world nations that have served as a boon for US corporations in their efforts to seek cheap, global-slave-labor while applying downward pressure on American middle-class wages as well as destroying the US tax and consumer base. Due to this, the revenue from 10 million quality jobs is now being spent into competing, 3rd world economies as opposed to the US economy.

  • Demand that policy makers (Congress & Presidency) pass legislation which makes it a crime of high-treason for any U.S. corp to send a single job or production facility beyond U.S. borders if their product or service has any ACTUAL penetration into U.S. markets.

  • Demand that policy makers pass legislation to place tariffs on any nation where there is a trade deficit for the US that wholly balances those deficits. This prevents nations from using currency manipulation to subsidize their exports thereby causing US manufacturing jobs to disappear. The sole reason that tariffs have NOT been implemented all these decades is because it would also force large US corps who send jobs overseas to pay those tariffs as well, thereby eliminating any monetary benefit for them to use global slave labor in the development of their products. US corps have lobbied heavily over decades to prevent the use of tariffs and the outcome has been the complete destruction of America's manufacturing base.

  • Demand that policy makers put an end (legislatively) to all outsourcing, off-shoring and insourcing practices and officially declare them un-American and traitorous activities.

Outsourcing, off-shoring and in-sourcing (H1B guest workers), collectively have fastly become a very real and profound national security threat to the United States of America! No other event or act of war throughout the history of the nation has caused more economic damage to America and its tax revinue base or has devastated the financial well-being of American citizens the way that the wholesale outsourcing of US jobs has!!! If one can think of any other catastrophic event that can top the resulting economic turmoil that outsourcing over the last decade has caused, Americans are all ears! As long as we are still sending our young men & women to fight in global wars then America is still an individual nation with economic, military, intelligence and other strategic NATIONAL interests which puts us in direct competition (especially economically) with ALL other nations! The so called multi-national corps can put that in their pipe and smoke me!!!! This isn't a globalist world as long as our children are still dying in wars fighting for corporate interests!!!

[-] 1 points by shannonerhea (4) 3 years ago

occupiers have been talking to leaders from Tahrir Square. They have asked them how to defend ourselves from self-promoters. Tahrir Square Leaders said we need a unified message to keep people who are there for their own purposes away. My comrades have not been arrested maced and beaten by cops for picnics parades and reality shows!! The Media is running wild in the park and people are showing up just to be on TV. NOTHING is being addressed and I am PRO DEMANDS. This is a revolt notn Occupy Party. Why are people so afraid to demand something from our GOV.???? Seperation of Corp. and State now and this needs to be demanded ASAP. TILLMAN ACT 1907!!! Look MTV Halloween Parades Floats etc. This is just laughable at this point. If this movement doesnt get serious about revolt and serious moves for change then people will have no choice but to walk away.. Why dont we all really look to Tahrir Square and the Leaders that have come here to help us? Why do we all cheer for them then not take their words of wisdom and put them into action? Theres a TON of lip service going on and a whole lot of sitting around. People dont want to have to occupy the park for the rest of time. People want to go home to their familys some day. Without demands we have no focused goal. Get real people. We need to wake up for real..

[-] 1 points by shannonerhea (4) 3 years ago

occupiers have been talking to leaders from Tahrir Square. They have asked them how to defend ourselves from self-promoters. Tahrir Square Leaders said we need a unified message to keep people who are there for their own purposes away. My comrades have not been arrested maced and beaten by cops for picnics parades and reality shows!! The Media is running wild in the park and people are showing up just to be on TV. NOTHING is being addressed and I am PRO DEMANDS. This is a revolt notn Occupy Party. Why are people so afraid to demand something from our GOV.???? Seperation of Corp. and State now and this needs to be demanded ASAP. TILLMAN ACT 1907!!! Look MTV Halloween Parades Floats etc. This is just laughable at this point. If this movement doesnt get serious about revolt and serious moves for change then people will have no choice but to walk away.. Why dont we all really look to Tahrir Square and the Leaders that have come here to help us? Why do we all cheer for them then not take their words of wisdom and put them into action? Theres a TON of lip service going on and a whole lot of sitting around. People dont want to have to occupy the park for the rest of time. People want to go home to their familys some day. Without demands we have no focused goal. Get real people. We need to wake up for real..

[-] 1 points by camillemalcolm (4) 3 years ago

We need demands but they should be broad and simple in order to engage more people. For instance: "Get business out of government." Who would disagree with that and so much would change with just this single iissue. It can become the mantra of the movement.

[-] 1 points by skizzy (445) 3 years ago

Demand all the current career politicians leave... Maybe they can go to Saudi Arabia or Israel

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

This group is only trying to suggest demands to the GA- you guys know that. So they are not speaking FOR anyone. They are merely suggestin proposals for the GA toapprove or reject. But it seems some of you over there may be to close minded to even be willing to talk about it. How democratic of you

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

Why do you keep removing my posts? I am only asking questions? Are you afraid of ideas you disagree with?

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

And may I ask, who are you guys empowered by? What makes YOU the arbiters of what is and what is not legitimate debate?

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

Why are you guys on this sight so afraid of transperancy? Why do you fight so hard to not even allow a DEBATE for demands? Why are you unaccountably trying to discredit the demands working group?

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

who is controlling this page?

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

Why did you take down my post asking why you are trying to discredit the demands working group?

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

Why did you take down my last post which simply asked that OWS practice what it preaches and engage in open dialouge?

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

qqq

[-] 1 points by iamtheeggman (10) 3 years ago

Who controls this web page? Where is its transparency? Why are there some in OWS who will not even allow a DEBATE about demands? How inclusive is that? I am not personally sure if we should have demands or what they should be. But I am sure that it is highly troubling for an "open source" movement such as this one to have people actively engaged in attempting to quash debate itself simply because they are opposed to an idea. Yes, let's argue and get upset with each other. Let's fight it (verbally) out. But positing a comment like the one above that the demands group only speaks for itself, undermines the critical aspect of what many of us though OWS was all about- a place where ALL of us could come and work together to figure out what we were going to do to take our world back from those who have stolen it.

[-] 1 points by LSN45 (535) 3 years ago

Public financing of elections - let's get the money out of our politics!

[-] 1 points by quercus (93) 3 years ago

i consider #OWS as a great teach in; a public space to discuss, listen-read, be challenged to think: a sense of engagement - as - a people.

the issue i would like a discussion on is TAXES.

for example: the other i got my property tax statement:

-this is what is owed: -this is how i can pay it: -this his where / how it will be divided: (in dollars and cents) ^ education total ^geeneral govt total bonds - other totals........

-each is broken down into a sub-catagory; (in dollars and cents) -each sub-catagory has a local forum/meeting to complain, actually see in person- well, ever so often, (would you be surprized, if you saw - recognized your local, county, state, federal rep. trolling the aisle of your local grocery?) beyond that, my tax dollars go up the pyramid-the all seeing eye.

my point is: the repubs/dems are beginning to talk about 'tax-reform'., for the 1%,

my question is what whould be- how can we define a tax reform for the 99%???

[-] 1 points by asimons (3) 3 years ago

Without goals or demands the OWS movement will die. I saw a document that listed 20 issues/demands and it is a wonderful start. Remember Gandhi listed a demand one at a time and one that he knew he could win, so he asked for just a bit more in order to compromise. After he won the first demand, he went on to the next. I say begin a demand a week and coordinate with the other OWS locations in US (I;m in San Diego). Together we are much stronger than acting individually. No revolution is won without leadeship.

[-] 1 points by asimons (3) 3 years ago

Without goals or demands the OWS movement will die. I saw a document that listed 20 issues/demands and it is a wonderful start. Remember Gandhi listed a demand one at a time and one that he knew he could win, so he asked for just a bit more in order to compromise. After he won the first demand, he went on to the next. I say begin a demand a week and coordinate with the other OWS locations in US (I;m in San Diego). Together we are much stronger than acting individually. No revolution is won without leadeship.

[-] 1 points by dolfinguy (20) 3 years ago

OK--Some civil disobedience is good for the political soul & for national media PR....but... Real Solutions are available & need your energy & support...now. Are We the 99%Voters ready to take the REAL next step?....Here is the more proactive solution as the Necessary Next Step-- http://www.getmoneyout.com/ --& tell a friend--tell everyone...because this ones gonna be the hardest next step to take. Election Reform Now-- One person ,one vote ,$100 limit to voters only! Also--How many tent-totin' Occupiers are Registered Voters & ready to Organize Re-call Elections, or run for office, or propose local, state or federal referendums, initiatives or propositions? These 99%Voter can & would threaten & shock our current politicians to change their tunes. --Recall just one corporate-suckling congress person in every (or a few) states & see how the rest of elected officials will respond to the Power of the Organized 99%Voters!! Join & support --getmoneyout.com-- Reform Elections first--tax reform will follow... Don't waste time & money on jail-bail. Keep it peaceful, keep it legal, & the 99% wins. Use your American Rights & Freedoms to Organize Votes & Fix America Now. &Read Jeffery Sachs--the "Price of Civilization: Renewing America's Values". or listen to--- http://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/archive/podcast/dr-jeffrey-sachs-101011 ---

[-] 1 points by rayinaotearoa (4) 3 years ago

I am watching this with real interest from New Zealand. I'm involved in the Occupy Auckland protest which is in Aotea Square in the central business district. We have about 70 tents and maybe round 100 people staying full time.

Luckily, we also have a few people who are well versed in PR and media and have open communication lines with both the local council and the police. And, at this stage everything is peaceful and working well.

Good luck everyone!!

[-] 1 points by rayinaotearoa (4) 3 years ago

I am watching this with real interest from New Zealand. I'm involved in the Occupy Auckland protest which is in Aotea Square in the central business district. We have about 70 tents and maybe round 100 people staying full time.

Luckily, we also have a few people who are well versed in PR and media and have open communication lines with both the local council and the police. And, at this stage everything is peaceful and working well.

Good luck everyone!!

[-] 1 points by seeker (242) 3 years ago

I must say I am extremely pleased to hear that after reading some demands just posted.

Stay vigilant and open..Who control's the money supply normally control's every thing beware.

[-] 1 points by saunders (1) 3 years ago

WE NEED SOME REAL MONEY Executive Order 11110    This was created by Pres. John F. Kennedy.  It effectively put U.S. Treasury Notes into direct competion with Federal Reserve Notes.  That, in turn, would put the biggest monopoly in the history of mankind, the Federal Reserve.......out of business.  These Notes were to be backed by the good faith of the people of the United States through their purchase of U.S. Savings Bonds, which I bought many of as a child through the purchase of stamps to put into my savings bond booklet.    All of the above transgressions are being funded with this money that is being robbed from us via the Federal Reserve.  They literally own the world plus five percent!  The fed note is put into circulation as an instrument of debt.  At the end of the year you owe the principal plus the interest.  But the interest is never created, it just keeps compounding.  To pay it off you need to rob Peter to pay Paul, borrow more and siphon some off to pay the interest or file for bankruptcy.  Sound familiar?  None of the above is ever a means of dealing with the debt.  It is a mathematical system derived by Amir Rothschild to keep a people or a government in perpetual servitude.  For more details on the history check out a great film called "The Money Masters."     In conclusion, the first order of the day is to cut off the head of the Viper, the Federal Reserve.  All the previous grievances will generally cease to exist once we cut off access to the "free money tree".  Using credit created by third party private bankster instituions and mistakenly using that as currency/money only robs us of our sovereignty that our for-fathers fought to create and protect with the original revolution of 1776.  In the proverbial words of Thomas Jefferson, "Every generation needs a new Revolution!" DO NOT LET J.F.K's DEATH HAVE BEEN IN VAIN! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

U.S. Treasury Note                                                                                        

-Credit created by the people, for the people, not at interest.                             

-Backed by the good faith of the people using the currency through the purchase of U.S. savings bonds. This eliminates the possibility of our being beholden to any outside sources as we are now to the Federal Reserve and China.

Federal Reserve Note

-Credit created by private bankster corporation at interest that robs us of our sovereignty and keeps us beholden to outside and foreign sources of "credit." Credit that is created out of thin air.

-A mathematical formula that is impossible to ever repay, no matter how good your business is, how frugal you are or how good of a business man you are.

"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom." -Thomas Paine 1776

[-] 1 points by slb (2) 3 years ago

An end to the status quo. That's getting better. Baffling statements like "We are our demands" are engineered to create mental fuzziness. I have yet to get an explanation of what it means.

[-] 1 points by thebeastchasingitstail (1912) 3 years ago

true

[-] 1 points by Genseric (7) 3 years ago

No one is flooding Africa with Jewish Bankers, pushing programs of national destruction and saying, "Whatever you do, don't protest, especially the nationalists.

"No one is flooding China with Jewish Bankers, pushing programs of national destruction and saying, "Whatever you do, don't protest, especially the nationalists."

Of course not, the people who say these things ONLY say them about EVERY White and ONLY White countries. They claim to be nothing more than anti-racist. What they really are is anti-White.

Anti-racist is a codeword for anti-White.

[-] 1 points by MarkRead (3) 3 years ago

This website admin is taking matters into his own hands. The demands working group is very much a part of this movement. They did not speak on behalf of the movement. Some members of the press made that claim, but they did not.

[-] 1 points by Rexman2011 (1) 3 years ago

If there is a singular cause that can unite everyone, I believe that a call for a Constitutional amendment to rescind "corporate personhood " could be that cause. This could bind all political parties together and instill some fear in corporate America that currently does not exist. Just my two cents, RD

[-] 1 points by Troy59 (3) 3 years ago

Time to focus very detailed focus or all the work will be waisted look back at the 60s and learn! You wana bitch then you need to have better answers

[-] 1 points by Troy59 (3) 3 years ago

Time to focus very detailed focus or all the work will be waisted look back at the 60s and learn! You wana bitch then you need to have better answers

[-] 1 points by JeffJ (8) 3 years ago

We are our Demands. I love it! Stop The Greed.

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 3 years ago

My "demands"

            MONEY OUT NOW!
  The capital of DEMOCRACY is the vote – your vote !

This is not a wish list of OWS demands. It is a list of issues, that any of us can ACT upon.
Although long term restructuring of American government and economic policy is clearly in order, the immediate step is to exercise our democratic rights by contacting our congress people and senators to tell them how we, individually – not as OWS, feel about the following - or any other issues –

Public option & universal health care – medicare for all.

Americans pay about double what comparable countries pay or medical care – and get worse results.
Other countries do not waste money on “insurance”. Health care is a primary human right- except in America.

Corporations & rich must pay their fair share.

[ Absolute Minimum Tax ]- Corporations use hundreds of lawyers and accountants to use tax law and bribes to maximize profits and minimize taxes.
General Electric, for example, had profits of $14,000,000,000.00 in 2010 and paid NO tax. The simplest solution is an absolute minimum tax of at least 20% , ignoring all deductions or dodges or loopholes. Warren Buffet’s tax rate is less than his secretary’s.

Corporations are not people & Money is not speech.

Supreme court rulings, especially Citizens United in 2010, have ruled that corporations have the same rights as people.
Current law would allow Iranian oil companies to secretly fund
any candidate. The only way to “overrule” this is a constitutional amendment.

Stop oil company subsidies.

The government has given oil companies such as Exxon, welfare/tax subsides of BILLIONS.

Eliminate recent restraints on collective bargaining.

In 2011 many states such as WI and OH have passed laws eliminating workers rights.

Eliminate recent changes to restrict voting.

In 2011 many states have passed laws requiring unobtainable voter id, reducing early voting periods and restricting voter registration.

Restore banking regulations and regulators – regulate greed.

Many banking regulations have been repealed in the last 10 years. Their absence directly led to the 2008 financial disaster.
Deregulation caused Reagan’s S&L disaster.

Break up the non-competitive, too big to fail banks.

The Glass-Steagal 1933 law kept banks separate from other kinds of investment companies that take risks – repealed in 1999 & caused 2008.

Capital gains must be taxed as income.

Should a coal miner in West Virginia pay a higher tax rate than an investor who inherited millions and makes money by buying and selling stocks?

Stop privatization of government.

The only goal of privatization is PROFIT.
If Dick Cheney’s Halliburton can build showers
for our soldiers in Iraq – and make a profit – and see his block of stock options increase in
value from $241,498 to $8,165,489 in just one year while he was vice president and while he was pushing a war that has killed thousands – including at least thirteen soldiers that were electrocuted in his Halliburton showers – it’s just a business expense.

Tax exported jobs.

The primary reason that the stock market is up while virtually every other dimension of our economy is struggling is based on the fact that millions of American jobs have been exported to maximize American corporate profit.

----------please see next post----------------------------------------

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 3 years ago

Tax extra for ultra-fast stock trades ( <1 day )

Computers can buy and sell millions of dollars of stock in just a few seconds – creating profits for the owners of the computers and no benefit to the companies or America and can
create havoc in the market and losses for ordinary investors.

Limit all campaign contributions to $100.

Money – wall street and otherwise – controls Washington.
Karl Rove’s PAC was funded primarily by 6 billionaires.

End the wars.

We cannot afford the blood and wealth.

Cut the military.

We do not need to build more atomic weapons.
We do not need thousands of troops in Germany and Japan,
We do not need to spend money on star wars.
The capitalists want to spend money on hardware –
especially no-bid contracts and cost-plus contracts which so easily produce profits. Eisenhower warned us.

Create an FDR type WPA & CCC & a TVA for wind farms.

FDR put millions of people to work - why can’t we?

Hire & train returning vets.

Haven’t we abused these heroes long enough?

Arrest and try the war criminals.

At least - the torturers and those who approved it.
In 1983, a Texas sheriff was prosecuted by the United States Justice Department and convicted of WATERBAORDING and sentenced to 10 years. Do I need to tell you that in 1983 that the top American Executive was Reagan? Do I need to tell you that in 1983 that the top Texas Executive was Bush?

Stop using the Patriot Act to spy on Americans.

Arrest and try the bank/investment criminals.

Eliminate the filibuster.

The Senate filibuster rule allows a minority of 40 of the 100 senators to control everything.

Endorse Elizabeth Warren.

This would have some very important and far reaching effects Other candidates will join us!

Find an anti-Norquist pledge Republican to endorse

We should try to cement our all-encompanying non-partisanship { maybe John Thune or Frank Wolf or Jeff Fortenberry }

============================================

Select some issues - then FIND YOUR REPRESENTATIVE & SENATORs CONTACT: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml http://www.house.gov/ http://www.senate.gov/ Then, “grass roots” it: get at least 4 of your friends to also email their congressman & get them to “grass roots” this through repeated generations–till Washington is covered in grass!

You can use www.whitepages.com/person to look up people & addresses & zip codes. Important Note: they will only pay attention to zip codes in their <House> congressional district Or <Senate> state

DEMOCRACY IS FOR SALE ONLY IF YOUR INACTION ALLOWS IT

THE MESSAGE IS: VOTE THE WAY I WANT ON MY ISSUES OR I WONT VOTE FOR YOU

Three organizations – NRA and AARP and TEAparty have been enormously successful and powerful – by using their votes-

WE MUST TOO !

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 3 years ago

And here I thought working groups were autonomous? Silly me.

[-] 1 points by francinea (2) 3 years ago

Fairness=Ending corporate influence in government, ending the influence of banks on the Federal Reserve (and they are cooking up more unfairness against the middle class as we speak), holding honest elections... these are some worthy goals voiced by the Occupiers, and why the country is watching and admiring. At some point, clear demands must be stated- for more to join and empower these demands; Otherwise, so what?

[-] 1 points by francinea (2) 3 years ago

Fairness=Ending corporate influence in government, ending the influence of banks on the Federal Reserve (and they are cooking up more unfairness against the middle class as we speak), holding honest elections... these are some worthy goals voiced by the Occupiers, and why the country is watching and admiring. At some point, clear demands must be stated- for more to join and empower these demands; Otherwise, so what?

[-] 1 points by uptherebels (5) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Why do the politicians need us to tell them what to do? Yes, they can start with the demands of the people of ows, the demands that are there on the streets during marches for anyone to hear who will listen, on signs for anyone to read who will look, instead of waiting for a constrained set of bare minimums, put out by a committee, that they can work against. Perhaps they will even work harder to solve these problems, because they do not know how far they will have to go to satisfy us. Maybe the strength that we show will scare them enough to go beyond their comfort zones and truly work towards change.

Or we could ask for specific things and let them spend the next 14 months co-opting those ideas, criticizing those ideas, and blaming each other for not already solving them.

Put out a list of demands, and see the momentum come screeching to a halt. Continue to rally support, protest on specific causes while remaining a non-heirarchical people's movement, and let the begrudgers discredit themselves.

[-] 1 points by slb (2) 3 years ago

Can someone explain to me what "We are our demands" means?

[-] 1 points by arvinss47 (2) 3 years ago

Ask the country AND THE WORLD TO STOP PAYING MORTAGES TO THE banks and hence The Rothschild Dynasty worth 500 trillion dollars on your sweat , they will wake up to our cause. Ask congress to remove The Foreign owned federal reserve bank from minting our money, they are making us slaves to their cause. They practise fractional banking leading us to presently inflationary depression where our earnings is now unable to meet our needs. In 1920 0ne ounce of gold was 20 dollars now it is in excess of 1600 dollars.

[-] 1 points by arvinss47 (2) 3 years ago

Ask the country AND THE WORLD TO STOP PAYING MORTAGES TO THE banks and hence The Rothschild Dynasty worth 500 trillion dollars on your sweat , they will wake up to our cause. Ask congress to remove The Foreign owned federal reserve bank from minting our money, they are making us slaves to their cause. They practise fractional banking leading us to presently inflationary depression where our earnings is now unable to meet our needs. In 1920 0ne ounce of gold was 20 dollars now it is in excess of 1600 dollars.

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 3 years ago

The problem here is everyone has an opinion of how things should change and this leads to chaos without real solutions. People need to unite together and agree on the most important issue of what exactly is the problem along with a solid fair solution of how they wish to have it resolved in detail.

[-] 1 points by waveform144 (5) 3 years ago

NESARA "National Economic Stabilization and Recovery Act" http://wh.gov/4d5 ...it is time to act now...five minutes can protect your childrens liberties...and yours...

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 3 years ago

My "demands"-

                                      MONEY OUT NOW!        
            The capital of DEMOCRACY is the vote – your vote !

This is not a wish list of OWS demands.
It is a list of issues, that all Americans can act upon.
Although long term restructuring of American government and economic policy is clearly in order, the next, immediate step is to exercise our democratic rights by contacting our congresspeople and senators to tell them how we, individually – not as OWS, feel about the following - or any other issues –

Public option & universal health care – medicare for all. Americans pay about double what comparable countries pay or medical care – and get worse results.
Other countries do not waste money on “insurance”. Health care is a primary human right- except in America.

Corporations & rich must pay their fair share. [ Absolute Minimum Tax ] Corporations use hundreds of lawyers and accountants to use tax law and bribes to maximize profits and minimize taxes.
General Electric, for example, had profits of $14,000,000,000.00 in 2010 and paid NO tax. The simplest solution is an absolute minimum tax of at least 20% , ignoring all deductions or dodges or loopholes. Warren Buffet’s tax rate is less than his secretary’s.

Corporations are not people & Money is not speech.
Supreme court rulings, especially Citizens United in 2010, have ruled that corporations have the same rights as people.
Current law would allow Iranian oil companies to secretly fund
any candidate. The only way to “overrule” this is a constitutional amendment.

Stop oil company subsidies. The government has given oil companies such as Exxon, welfare/tax subsides of BILLIONS.

Eliminate recent restraints on collective bargaining. In 2011 many states such as WI and OH have passed laws eliminating workers rights.

Eliminate recent changes to restrict voting.
In 2011 many states have passed laws requiring unobtainable voter id, reducing early voting periods and restricting voter registration.

Restore banking regulations and regulators – regulate greed. Many banking regulations have been repealed in the last 10 years. Their absence directly led to the 2008 financial disaster.
Deregulation caused Reagan’s S&L disaster.

Break up the non-competitive, too big to fail banks. The Glass-Steagal 1933 law kept banks separate from other kinds of investment companies that take risks – repealed in 1999 & caused 2008.

Capital gains must be taxed as income. Should a coal miner in West Virginia pay a higher tax rate than an investor who inherited millions and makes money by buying and selling stocks?

Stop privatization of government. The only goal of privatization is PROFIT.
If Dick Cheney’s Halliburton can build showers
for our soldiers in Iraq – and make a profit – and see his block of stock options increase in
value from $241,498 to $8,165,489 in just one year while he was vice president and while he was pushing a war that has killed thousands – including at least thirteen soldiers that were electrocuted in his Halliburton showers – it’s just a business expense.

Tax exported jobs. The primary reason that the stock market is up while virtually every other dimension of our economy is struggling is based on the fact that millions of American jobs have been exported to maximize American corporate profit.

see next post

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 3 years ago

Tax extra for ultra-fast stock trades ( <1 day ) Computers can buy and sell millions of dollars of stock in just a few seconds – creating profits for the owners of the computers and no benefit to the companies or America and can
create havoc in the market and losses for ordinary investors.

Limit all campaign contributions to $100. Money – wall street and otherwise – controls Washington.
Karl Rove’s PAC was funded primarily by 6 billionaires.

End the wars. We cannot afford the blood and wealth.

Cut the military. We do not need to build more atomic weapons.
We do not need thousands of troops in Germany and Japan,
We do not need to spend money on star wars.
The capitalists want to spend money on hardware –
especially no-bid contracts and cost-plus contracts which so easily produce profits. Eisenhower warned us.

Create an FDR type WPA & CCC & a TVA for wind farms. FDR put millions of people to work - why can’t we?

Hire & train returning vets. Haven’t we abused these heroes long enough?

Arrest and try the war criminals. At least - the torturers and those who approved it.
In 1983, a Texas sheriff was prosecuted by the United States Justice Department and convicted of WATERBAORDING and sentenced to 10 years. Do I need to tell you that in 1983 that the top American Executive was Reagan? Do I need to tell you that in 1983 that the top Texas Executive was Bush?

Stop using the Patriot Act to spy on Americans.

Arrest and try the bank/investment criminals.

Eliminate the filibuster. The Senate filibuster rule allows a minority of 40 of the 100 senators to control everything.

Endorse Elizabeth Warren. This would have some very important and far reaching effects Other candidates will join us!

Find an anti-Norquist pledge Republican to endorse We should try to cement our all-encompanying non-partisanship { maybe John Thune or Frank Wolf or Jeff Fortenberry }

FIND YOUR REPRESENTATIVE & SENATORs CONTACT: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml http://www.house.gov/ & http://www.senate.gov/ Then, “grass roots” it: get at least 4 of your friends to also email their congressman & get them to “grass roots” this through repeated generations–till Washington is covered in grass!

You can use www.whitepages.com/person
to look up people & addresses & zip codes. Important Note:
they will only pay attention to zip codes in their <House> congressional district or <Senate> state
DEMOCRACY IS FOR SALE ONLY IF YOUR
INACTION ALLOWS IT !

THE MESSAGE IS: VOTE THE WAY WE WANT OR WE WONT VOTE FOR YOU

Three organizations – NRA and AARP and TEAparty have been enormously successful and powerful – by using their votes- WE MUST TOO !

[-] 1 points by TomHall (58) 3 years ago

From the beginning when our country was formed we face many challenges and many opposing views

Just like today however, the peoples voices have been silence by special interest groups as well as the over whelming power grab by the bankers. Your demands/petitions will never be heard or taken seriously unless lobbyist/corporate have bless it for greedy reasons or Co-Opt it.

It is time for a fair hearing!

Wouldn’t it be great if you can be heard, fairly and equally? Wouldn’t it be worth your time to know there is a petition list, worth signing rather then getting involved in so many other worthy causes? Can be a drain, especially knowing many of lists of issues will mostly not be look at or simply be voted downed.

It can also be time consuming.

This is were the 9’step plan an ever growing list known as the “TOCS FAE” doctrine helps just about every cause, the cause that helps almost all other causes should be supported. These step plans, solves many of the roots of all our problems we face.

Whether you have protested at the gas pump or you are an Occupier and Tea Partier, for that matter any protest mover, make your protest have meaning, give it the teeth it needs beyond the gas pump and over the protest lines.

This petition will be a notification to congress of things yet to come and to properly prepare.

As of January 2012 we the people

We will not take the abuse anymore and neither should they walk around with there heads in the sand.

We will begin the process of phase one

Your petition will go to congress, informing them you support The “TOCS FAE” Doctrine and so should they, by making preparations for receiving and forwarding income Tax mail. Your petition will also go to the top corporations letting them know of our intentions and they too should support and act on the doctrine by sending their taxes directly to congress. They should also be informed if our demands are not met, protests will be under way the likes they have never seen.

After this is achieved and we have broken the back of a few select Corporations we will move on to Step1 Taxes which may take months or years

Step1 Taxes

Step1) Send your TAXES to a trusted congressman or congresswoman which maybe hard to find in your state. Make a Petition with your neighbors. Phone, email, fax your congress your list and intentions. Prepare your taxes, made out to the I.R.S check and envelope, and a stamp. Fit it in inside of a bigger envelope, onto which you should write congress address, preferably your state congress.

Example

Washington, DC 203 Cannon House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Phone Number: (202) 225-2831

Have congress unwrap the envelopes, state you want your taxes to be mailed to the I.R.S

If you are asking yourself, what will this achieve first it can be used as a bargain chip however, congress cannot spend it or over take the fed reserve and banks system over night, nonetheless this will indeed give teeth/meat, back to congress. You should include a sign return receipt so as to show proof you paid your taxes.

For the rest Click http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/

Occupy funny pix http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/apps/blog/

[-] 1 points by markarecio (26) 3 years ago

Occupy Wall Street For A Long Time Until There is Social, Economic, And Political Change.

Three Things Come into Mind: One is Wall Street and Government Should be Separate. Two is Tax The 1 Percent Rich for Fairness and More Government Revenue. Three is Sales Tax Should Be Distributed To Social, Constructive, and Economic Programs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ZPdoExVjQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn_x5vpD8W8&feature=related

[-] 1 points by Chris87 (8) 3 years ago

Take the fight to CAPITOL HILL!!

[-] 1 points by Chris87 (8) 3 years ago

First of all, gain leaderahip.

Second, Get organized.

Thrid, TAKE THE FIGHT RIGHT TO DC!!

Too many people scattered throughout the country & have there own interpretation of whats going on. Your message isnt very clear. Get organized & more collected.

Your protesting & being veiwed as free radicals.

[-] 1 points by Lunde (1) 3 years ago

So owning this website gives you the authority to tell this autonomous workgroup that it is wrong?

[-] 1 points by Lightson (2) 3 years ago

Regarding goal (demands) for #OWS, I like Paul B. Farrell's idea on MarketWatch. One citizen, one dollar, one vote. Anything less is failure. "We demand that integrity be restored to our elections. Only citizens should make campaign contributions and that campaign contributions by citizens should not exceed $1 to any political candidate or party. Help us reclaim democracy." Yes, one simple demand, "Stop the monied corruption at the heart of our democracy."

[-] 1 points by Lightson (2) 3 years ago

Regarding goal (demands) for #OWS, I like Paul B. Farrell's idea on MarketWatch. One citizen, one dollar, one vote. Anything less is failure. "We demand that integrity be restored to our elections. Only citizens should make campaign contributions and that campaign contributions by citizens should not exceed $1 to any political candidate or party. Help us reclaim democracy." Yes, one simple demand, "Stop the monied corruption at the heart of our democracy."

[-] 1 points by 99PercentMusing (2) 3 years ago

It was Nadeem or Brian from Occupy Boston who put it very aptly. Asking us for demands right now, is like asking an acorn to be a tree. We're a movement, not simply a protest, and we have only just begun. National GA begins July 4th, according to Nadeem, with representatives from all the GA's. OccupyResearch is also developing better networking and communication tools for all of us. I propose: Hold tight. Stay strong. Stay peaceful. Don't stop holding GA's. Educate yourself and others on the evils we are facing. We are all in this together. We are the People. We are the 99%.

[-] 1 points by realself (9) 3 years ago

Lies. the OWS sanctioned the demands group, published their meeting times, supported them publicly, and then a piece on 'demands' appeared in the NYTimes; rumors were flying, and perhaps the OWS organizers decided that "demands" just weren't the answer after all. Now this attack.

The demands group never gave anything to the New York Times: a reporter found out about their meeting, asked to stay and was told to leave. She snuck back in later to eavesdrop.

If you have problems with the concept of "demands," it's understandable; many people do. But you should have gone straight to the group to discuss it, in an honest way. This attack is disgraceful.

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

we need a law that makes it illegal NOT to recycle. Anyone heard of the plastic accumulation thats the size of africa?! Theres 3.5 million tons of garbage 80% of which is plastic floating around in the pacific ocean. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=4528488&page=1 Our first step to a better society is living in a better physical world ...we need to clean up the mess we made, if we dont, it will greatly effect the oceans ecosystems and we will be the ones who ultimately suffer. Phytoplankton is the main source of our oxygen regeneration. The second source being plantlife [which we are also continuously destroying as well]. Please take some time to look into this and spread the awareness. Theres a lot of crap and we need to work together <3

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Agreed. I don't think the environment gets mentioned enough because it sound too hippie, but part of the consequences of the greed and corruption was the near destuction and poisoning of alot of our resources. I hate to imagine the world thirty years from now if we don't turn a bright light on this problem.

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

yes youre right! while i wrote this i was afraid it would be considered to "hippie" :P if being a hippie is caring for the world we live on them i am so down!! think of all the good we could do if everyone started cleaning the streets and parks, stopped polluting our waters, used solar power instead of fossil fuel, took care of the soil, plant and animal life. We would be living in paradise :P

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Keep on advocating!!! You Hippie:) I'm proud to love our planet and I do not appreciate its willful distruction.

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

<3 :]

[-] 1 points by chuangtzu (1) 3 years ago

Why don't you create a central website whereby people can post ideas for three central demands? Then convene a series of General Assemblies for discussion of the three most popular demands, and then finally a vote. Of course continue all the great work on issues like Stop and frisk solidarity, fracking, etc. These point will set the ground work for all other demands to become possible. And they are general enough that all can get on board.

Here are three I think should be considered:

1) Caps on business size -- break up corporations, ban holding companies, and no corp spending outside of their core business; reduce corporations to their original intent if they are to exist; corp officials cannot work for the govt before or after corp service and vice versa

2) PUBLIC/cooperatively-owned banking tightly regulated at the regional level; investment banking and the interest-based money system needs to be re-considered in its entirety. Capital must be allocated by the people for the people.

3) Get rid of the bicameral legislature; expand it and regionalize with caps on election budgets with a public option -- call it the US representative general assembly and use more referenda -- call it smart government

Of course this means we need to re-write the constitution, so people should get working on that too.... :)

[-] 1 points by occupyvenicefl (9) from Englewood, FL 3 years ago

Actually it is called a "Petition for Redress of Grievances" and it makes a lot of sense if you read it. 1,000 individual #Occupy GA's across the country will make no progress whatsoever unless they coalesce around a focused and achievable set of goals. Without that this movement will collapse as fast as it arose.

The media latched on to this document for the same reason as many other folks who have thirsted for some focus in this movement.

Anarchy is not a solution and this is not Egypt, if anyone thinks that this is a revolution then I suggest that they hop in their car and take a tour of this country and learn a bit more about the People. When you get back get a job in a large multinational corporation and achieve a leadership position so that you can learn how powerful, and heartless, the Enemy is. After you have walked that path you will be far better prepared to make meaningful contributions to the evolution of a more just society.

[-] 1 points by theressomethinghappeninghere (3) 3 years ago

stop and frisk...all these "demands"...enough of these side-bar agendas..."no central message to rally around"????...look again - the repubs/wealthy just don't like people...they are determined to provoke a class war...watch out!! this is about "us" - the 99% - the 1% money/power cannot beat us down!! we must move forward...the revolution will not be televised ....it is in our hearts and minds and will not be defeated...........

[-] 1 points by theressomethinghappeninghere (3) 3 years ago

stop and frisk...all these "demands"...enough of these side-bar agendas..."no central message to rally around"????...look again - the repubs/wealthy just don't like people...they are determined to provoke a class war...watch out!! this is about "us" - the 99% - the 1% money/power cannot beat us down!! we must move forward...the revolution will ne be televised! it is in our hearts and minds and will not be defeated................

[-] 1 points by jryberg (1) 3 years ago

Hey, you're going to have to GET SPECIFIC, or you're not going anywhere, Wall Street and Washington will not listen, you will not be respected. See FHampton and booshington. They're right.

[-] 1 points by occupyvenicefl (9) from Englewood, FL 3 years ago

I hope that the Declaration Working Group continues. I thought that I was part of a Revolution living in NY in the 60's and while I am oh so glad that the people are finally again rising up against Corporate control of this society wisdom does come with age. You are not a revolution, but you can substantially hasten evolution if you have a clear vision and achievable goals. The idea of a declaration, of a National General Assembly, and of the carrot and stick approach with threat of formation of a new Political Party has great merit, don't let it die! Without that clear vision, mission and achievable goals you will not last through the winter.

[-] 1 points by metapolitik (1110) 3 years ago

What group?

Where?

Can you give us a link or something so that we can distinguish?

[-] 1 points by fwankie123 (490) from Immokalee, FL 3 years ago

How To Create A Better America. A New Direction For OWS!

  1. Rally around and get a constitutional amendment to get money out of politics passed,

"No person, corporation or business entity of any type, domestic or foreign, shall be allowed to contribute money, directly or indirectly, to any candidate for Federal office or to contribute money on behalf of or opposed to any type of campaign for Federal office. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, campaign contributions to candidates for Federal office shall not constitute speech of any kind as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution or any amendment to the U. S. Constitution. Congress shall set forth a federal holiday for the purposes of voting for candidates for Federal office."

  1. Get a law passed for total public campaign financing to all federal candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to get on the ballot and participate in the primaries and/or electoral process.

  2. Require new FCC regulations granting free air time to all federal candidates for elected office.

  3. Get a law passed where members of the United States House of Representatives shall be limited to serving no more than four two-year terms in their lifetime. Members of the United States Senate shall be limited to serving no more than two six-year terms in their lifetime.

  4. Get a law passed that bans politicians from becoming lobbyists for 10 years after they leave office.

  5. Adopt California's Proposition 20 nationwide and end gerrymandering by politicians and turn the drawing of congressional districts over to citizen committees.

  6. Create a fair and progressive tax code. The marginal tax rate ought to be raised to 50 percent on income between $500,000 and $5 million, 60 percent on income between $5 million and $15 million, and 70 percent on income over $15 million. There should be a 2 percent annual surtax on all fortunes over $7 million. Eliminate loopholes in the federal tax code, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions, subsidies (e.g. oil, gas and farm) and end all tax havens. Tax financial transactions at one percent.

  7. End too big to fail. Break up the biggest banks. Ban derivatives trading. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.

  8. Leave Afghanistan immediately. Reduce the military budget by half.

  9. Medicare For All. Allow Medicare to purchase drugs directly. Give MEDPAC greater authority to drive down medical costs.

  10. Create a government/business "Manhattan Project" to create clean energy.

  11. Keep Social Security solvent for generations by raising the ceiling on income subject to the Social Security tax to $200,000. Currently, $106,800.

  12. To increase opportunity for future generations offer free public education through 6 years of college

[-] 1 points by web214ny (9) 3 years ago

Whatever the DWG's relation to the GA is, demands are critical. 'Power concedes nothing without a demand', said F. Douglass aptly many decades ago, and slavery would never have been abolished without a demand to do so. Moreover, and here is the problem with the DWG's demands, the system (then, the slaveocracy; now, the capitalists) will use every means at their disposal and BOTH their political parties to break up the demands. Therefore, the DWG needs to point this out and call for defense by any means necessary or else their demands are simply wishful thinking.

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

How do I get my comment to NOT be burried in other comments from days ago?

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

The internet makes it all possible, you are all engaged in an informal Direct Democracy RIGHT NOW! Please consider making this a demand of the Occupy Our World back movement.

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

Informed Direct Democracy, the process by which the average well informed real public opinion is brought to the attention of all, directly, is now obviously made possible by the internet. Just as we have secure online banking, shopping, chat, forums, libraries, dictionaries, and many other types of large online services and gathering places of opinions and facts, we can have direct voting on ISSUES that affect everyone, accompanied by direct FACTUAL open sourced information available to all so we can KNOW what the issues are and how the issues affect people. The idea that most people are incapable of making direct decisions in their communities, governments, and international affairs because of lack of abilities, information, and lack of a practical method, is no longer tolerable. Most people on Earth, are perfectly capable of making sound decisions about any political, environmental, social issue, IF the people are provided with factual free open sourced information about the issues. Most people have enough common sense and reasoning abilities to understand and reach very reasonable solutions to all the issues we, the people of Earth, face today on local levels as well as global levels. Having poor education, as the 1% have turned our public education system into their consumer-worker brainwashing, is not the same as being stupid; and being trusting, as most people are, is not the same as being gullible, and is a virtue, not a weakness to be exploited by the greedy 1%. Most people should trust each other to share control over society together, not give up our liberties to a system of greed made by the 1% that's causing famine, wars financial desperation, poor education, and the destruction of our planet, all for MORE PROFIT FOR THE 1%. The internet already offers EVERYTHING that is needed to have Informed Direct Democratic voting on issues everywhere. All that is needed is for people to organize a system. This system should be started by the 99% Occupy International Movement right NOW, while there is still time. In a few short years, the PEOPLE OF EARTH could be voting on local politics and local issues, and on issues that affect their country, and global issues that affect everyone. Let's not allow the 1% to make us out to be a petty and shallow and selfish and cowardly poor VS rich movement. It's not about taking down rich people, it's about taking down GREED itself; most rich people have the same capacity for being reasonable as most poor people do. A real economic recovery is not accomplished by restoring the health of the financial institutions, because they measure their recovery in profit; we need to eliminate GREED from the financial system, because too-big-to-fail corporations reporting record profits does not equal healthy fair economy. The people can come up with MUCH better solutions together online NOW! It's time to stop handing over our control and trusting our representatives to make policies that reflect the will of the people, which they never do. We now have a system of greed running all governments and societies on Earth. Having the ability to vote AND BE INFORMED WITH THE FACTS about the issues directly as a people can FORCE our corrupt and greedy leaders to make the will of the people a reality. After all, in a Democratic society, the government's job is simply to administrate the process by which the will of the people is formulated into a body of laws and policies, which MOST people agree with, and then protect the peoples' rights to have such a Democracy. The government is sort of the secretary and the bodyguard of the people, not the authority for the people to be forced to follow even when most people disagree with its policies and decisions. In a true Democracy, the PEOPLE are the authority of the government. MOST PEOPLE ARE REASONABLE, give most people the power of direct voting on issues, and we will have very REASONABLE policies, everywhere. Remember, the key is the FREE OPEN SOURCED INFORMATION (kind of like wikipedia) accompanying the voting sites on the internet. So when reporters come to ask protesters on the streets what we are protesting for, what do we want, what are your demands (as if we were robbing a bank or something) we can say: "WE THE PEOPLE OF EARTH DEMAND DIRECT INFORMED DEMOCRACY ENABLED BY OUR CURRENT COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY, WE DEMAND VOTING ON ISSUES THAT AFFECT PEOPLE DIRECTLY THROUGH THE INTERNET AND WE DEMAND THAT WE HAVE AN OFFICIAL OPEN SOURCED ONLINE LIBRARY OF FACTS ABOUT ALL THE ISSUES WE ARE VOTING FOR."

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

forgive me for double-posting, but I feel double strong about this, somebody please shoot it down or support it, but TALK about it please:

HERE IS THE DEMAND!!!! from here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-via-the-internet/ "We the people of earth demand direct informed democracy enabled by our current communications technology, we demand voting on issues that affect people directly through the internet and we demand that we have an official open sourced online library of facts about all the issues we are voting for." I would like to push this idea as hard as possible and see if the movement agrees to adopt it as an official demand. Please read more about this in the forums: http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy/

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

HERE IS THE DEMAND!!!!

from here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy-via-the-internet/

"We the people of earth demand direct informed democracy enabled by our current communications technology, we demand voting on issues that affect people directly through the internet and we demand that we have an official open sourced online library of facts about all the issues we are voting for."

I would like to push this idea as hard as possible and see if the movement agrees to adopt it as an official demand. Please read more about this in the forums: http://occupywallst.org/forum/direct-democracy/

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

How about instead of demanding this we DO it.

[-] 1 points by alfi (469) 3 years ago

SURE! how do we get 99% of the USA to do it?

[-] 1 points by russpears (73) from Montclair, NJ 3 years ago

Any demand will be reduced to an appeal. the 99% does not need to appeal to the 1%. We should be considering a New Social Contract. One that can be clarified such that no Supreme Court Justice can re-interpret it's meaning. A new constitution that secures the future of the 99% forever and can stand as a model for other countries to reconsider their constitution too and make this movement live in the history books!

[-] 1 points by bdog (8) 3 years ago

check out this for our them song http://youtu.be/J6BuQcemmtM

[-] 1 points by madeinusa (393) 3 years ago

Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s (Tea party republican favorite) top secretary urged Albany Mayor Jerry Jennings on Friday to instruct city police to remove Occupy Albany protesters from a downtown park near the state Capitol if they tried to remain there after an 11 p.m curfew.

A person familiar with the matter said Cuomo’s secretary, Larry Schwartz, called Jennings late Friday morning and said that State Police, who control half of the park that is partly owned by the state of New York and city of Albany, would remove any protesters who did not comply with a curfew. The position of the governor’s office was in contrast to an earlier plan by Albany police to leave the protesters alone if they were peaceful, even if they stayed overnight.

Occupy Albany demonstrators began arriving at Lafayette/Academy park around noon. Half of the space is state land, the rest city property.

Read Brendan Lyons’ full story here

[-] 1 points by cnhaynes (1) 3 years ago

I think that if this group does not have a platform, and a narrative to explain the platform, you will all soon be forgotten, along with our democracy, or what is left of it.

How can you have no demands? The global elite has fosted upon us the idea that they were just gambling with our pension and tax dollars, and lost them. Thoughtless of them, but hardly illegal. Bullshit. If they were gambling with our money, who were they gambling with? Could it be they owned the casino? No. This is the most blatant criminal conspiracy ever devised. These are hardcore criminal families who have been in this business for centuries. They control more than you can imagine. Most importantly, they own the banks who are the Federal Reserve. They have used corrupt officials to force this system on us, by which the U.S. government prints money, gives it to the Federal Reserve, and then we pay them interest to borrow back our tax dollars. Are we freakin crazy? I can see why no one wants to stand up and name names. They have killed two presidents who attempted to bypass them and put money directly into the hands of honest bankers. And you think you don't need a plan to take them on? That is not even to mention the Supreme Court, who has made it legal for international corporations to pour any amount of money into our political campaigns, without it being reported. Since we Americans are stupid enough to be swayed by the political ads we are flooded with, any multi-national corporation , with foreign investors and leaders, can buy our elections. How do you expect to accomplish anything without a plan to stop this. Add to this the fact that you are already infiltrated by those will create violence and other negative photo ops, which will soon make you invisible.

You have no idea who you are messing with, just as those of us who were active in 1968 against the Viet Nam war were caught by surprise at the so called convention riots in Chicago. The war went on for another four years.

Something magical has happened. You have curried favor with a lot of people. But it will disappear fast if you just mill about with no plan. My suggestion is to call Dennis Kucinich, and beg him to help out. The entire government needs to be replaced, except for him and maybe Bernie Sanders. All you have is the constitution and the vote to straighten this out. Use them both.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

I think you're hitting it on the head. We are grossly mis-matched and doomed if we don't see the conspiracy for what it is. We have to call it what it is , identify ALL the players, and have a clear idea to systematically change the game.

[-] 1 points by earthiling (3) 3 years ago

I got a demand how is it posible that Timothy Geithner, Lawrence summers and Henry Paulson are not in jail , even more they are still enjoying their millions and still working for the U.S government, I think a good place to start is by setting the example with the people who pushed for this global 'Ponzi scheme'

[-] 1 points by SaRaIam (105) 3 years ago

Today there were two men going around taking a survey of the people in Liberty Plaza. Their survey started out with a question something like: "What do you think the biggest problem facing the nation today is" and then proceeded to list 4, the last being "other". There were no questions about campaign finance reform or getting the $ out of politic, no questions about the banking industry. I think they said the name of their survey was "Occupy Wall Street Public Opinion Project." Anyway, just wondering if anyone is sort of keeping an eye on people coming in. Another time a lady was going through all the ideas people had put into the "think tank" box, and when I asked her why she was going through them she put the slip I'd just put on the top on the bottom of the pile, underneath some flyer she had, which didn't sit well with me.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Hey, SaRalam. Maybe you can start a forum on this site. It's one of the options at the top of the page.

[-] 1 points by eugenedebs (1) 3 years ago

Revolution means a few different things - it usually refers to seizing political/state power, or it can refer to a major paradigm shift. If revolution means the former, that won't happen in the U.S. anytime soon. The latter is perhaps already occurring. But in order for this movement to have a long-term impact, changing the power structure is necessary. Demands are important - power concedes nothing without a demand. Do you really think the ruling class will just crumble because people keep holding marches in the streets and general assemblies?

[-] 1 points by Automaton (1) 3 years ago

NO demands? OK then...

They say you get what you ask for, so I guess OWS will be getting NOTHING out of all this.

This is why I dropped out of Moveon.org after one meeting. Just a bunch of whiners who are content listening to themselves whine, but never offer up any solutions!

I sure as hell hope SOMEONE co-opts this directionless movement before it's too late for any good to come of it!

[-] 1 points by pedror1 (2) from São Paulo, São Paulo 3 years ago
[-] 1 points by betsydoula (143) from Beverly Hills, FL 3 years ago

I joined the working group in yahoo last night and the group does not exist today.

[-] 1 points by betsydoula (143) from Beverly Hills, FL 3 years ago

There seem to be about six different forums having to do with the99declaration and it does appear to be a way to divide people up and keep them confused.

[-] 1 points by enough (589) 3 years ago

Without issuing a list of demands, #OWS can stand for anything or it can stand for nothing, depending how outside observers or participants, for that matter, perceive it to be. The organizers of #OWS in New York City may think it is clever or even transcendent to disdain and reject the issuance of firm demands, but the lack thereof unfortunately may mean nothing gets accomplished in a practical sense.

Certainly, there are a number of top-level, universal positions that can be stated and adopted with broad support by the #OWS group, as a whole. Focused energy with a defined message is superior than unfocused energy without a defined message if the intent is to improve the lot of a vast majority of Americans. In other words, unharnessed energy without stated objectives is impressive as far as it goes, but harnessed energy with stated objectives is much more effective and powerful. As a minimum, the General Assembly at each location should be able to issue its own demands whether or not the #OWS, as a whole, wishes to issue a set of demands. In fact, it would be a daunting task, as a practical matter, for the #OWS as a movement to arrive at a uniform consensus on any particular demands, not to mention a platform of demands. On the other hand, the OWS group in Los Angeles or Boston can issue its own demands without seeking consensus or approval from #OWS in New York City. This is the method of flattening or distributing responsibilities to its constituent sections across the entire #OWS movement. And who said any demands need to be all inclusive or the totality of all demands? Demands can be changed and new demands can be issued in the future.

[-] 1 points by Ali67 (1) 3 years ago

hello guys I'm thousand of miles away from you -in Iran- but I can feel your joy of being awakened.According to my believes you will be the winners because you are fighting the ones who are really cruel to humans and obviously they are socking the blood of the other 99% of people all over the world. good luck

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

thanks,Ali:)

[-] 1 points by betsydoula (143) from Beverly Hills, FL 3 years ago

I just found the following at http://bud-meyers.blogspot.com/2011/10/99-percent-declaration-ows.html

Update:

Yesterday in an article the Huffington Post mentioned this link: www.the99declaration.org, which re-directs us to here https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

Which seems to originate from here: Ninety-Nine Percent Declaration on FACEBOOK (432 Friends) https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003049781530#!/profile.php?id=100003049781530&sk=info

Note the domain name, email address, and logo www.the99declaration.org the99declaration@gmail.com

I checked the domain registration for the domain www.the99declaration.org at http://www.allwhois.com and got this:

Arizona Domain ID:D163636159-LROR Domain Name:THE99DECLARATION.ORG Created On:18-Oct-2011 23:53:14 UTC Last Updated On:18-Oct-2011 23:53:15 UTC Expiration Date:18-Oct-2014 23:53:14 UTC Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR) Registrant ID:CR95776546 Registrant Street2:15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353 Registrant City:Scottsdale Registrant State/Province:Arizona Registrant Postal Code:85260 Registrant Country:US Registrant Phone:+1.4806242599

The Daily Kos also mentions the same email address (THE99DECLARATION@GMAIL.COM) here: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/18/1027740/-Occupy-Wall-Street-National-Convention?via=sidebar

This post says who they are: https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home/who-are-we

Then today we have this ONE denial by a "user", not an "administrator" at the Official OCCUPY web site: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the99percentdeclaration-is-not-a-real-ows-working-/

If this is not an OFFICIAL OWS working group, and if there is confusion, then why isn't more being said about it?

Just now I wrote to BOTH email addresses the99declaration@gmail.com and the99declaration@yahoo.com to inquire about this and I received this auto-generated response. They used this name publicus unum as their username in the email (shouldn't it be e pluribus unum?)

"Thank you for your email. Everyone has put so much thought into these emails and I feel horrible but we are so overwhelmed with hundreds or a thousand emails at day that I cannot possible begin to respond and carry on with the mission to get the National General Assembly elected before July. The whole thing blew up on Monday for some reason. My apologies. Please post your ideas in the Working Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the99declaration/

OR

The Forum: http://the99delegation.forumotion.com/

[-] 1 points by JeffJ (8) 3 years ago

In the Sixties The Anti War movement had one demand "Stop the War" I think "Stop the Greed" is all OWS needs.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

If it catches on, could be perfect. Then I guess we could start defining what that means in a concrete way and acting on it.

[-] 1 points by abrown (2) 3 years ago

guys we only need to ask for one thing, criminal prosecution of all bank execs and demand back all bonuses and send off packages which are immoral and unwarranted, just that, send a strong message that recklessness shall not be rewarded by a just society.

[-] 1 points by abrown (2) 3 years ago

guys we only need to ask for one thing, criminal prosecution of all bank execs and demand back all bonuses and send off packages which are immoral and unwarranted, just that, send a strong message that recklessness shall not be rewarded by a just society.

[-] 1 points by burger55 (3) from Queens, NY 3 years ago

The David Icke Newsletter Goes Out On Sunday Any ‘protest’, any ‘change’ or ‘revolution’ not founded on the list below – at the very least the list below – has got no chance of changing anything. These very pillars of the system must fall or they will block any transformation of the human condition. The system does not need to be tinkered with or even fundamentally changed (on the surface). The whole bloody lot must go … starting with …

  1. An end to creating money out of thin air on computer screens and charging interest on it (fractional reserve lending).

  2. An end to governments borrowing fresh-air money called ‘credit’ from private banks and the people paying interest on this ‘money’ that has never, does not and will never exist. Governments (and that concept must change radically) can create their own currency – interest free.

  3. An end to private banks issuing non-existent money called ‘credit’ at all and thus creating ‘money’ as a debt from the very start.

  4. An end to casinos like Wall Street and the City of London betting mercilessly on the financial and commodity markets with the lives of billions around the world.

  5. An end to all professional lobby groups that earn their living and their clients’ living from corrupting the professionally corruptible – vast numbers of world politicians and the overwhelming majority on Capitol Hill.

  6. An end to no-contract government in which mendacious politicians can promise the people they will do this and that to win their support and then do the very opposite after they have lied themselves into office (see Obama).

  7. An end to the centralisation of power in all areas of our lives and a start to diversifying power to communities to decide their own lives and thus ensure there are too many points of decision making for any cabal to centrally control.

That is just for starters. There is so much more where that came from. What good will come from rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic? NONE.

The banking system as we know it does not need to be ‘changed’ - it needs to be gone. It is a criminal activity based on fraud, extortion and, through its effect, on worldwide mass murder.

Its replacement needs to be decided by the population - not the very people who created it in the first place and are covertly manipulating a new global structure of financial control based on a world central bank.

[-] 1 points by burger55 (3) from Queens, NY 3 years ago

These are wise words, thought i would share them..

The David Icke Newsletter Goes Out On Sunday Any ‘protest’, any ‘change’ or ‘revolution’ not founded on the list below – at the very least the list below – has got no chance of changing anything. These very pillars of the system must fall or they will block any transformation of the human condition. The system does not need to be tinkered with or even fundamentally changed (on the surface). The whole bloody lot must go … starting with …

  1. An end to creating money out of thin air on computer screens and charging interest on it (fractional reserve lending).

  2. An end to governments borrowing fresh-air money called ‘credit’ from private banks and the people paying interest on this ‘money’ that has never, does not and will never exist. Governments (and that concept must change radically) can create their own currency – interest free.

  3. An end to private banks issuing non-existent money called ‘credit’ at all and thus creating ‘money’ as a debt from the very start.

  4. An end to casinos like Wall Street and the City of London betting mercilessly on the financial and commodity markets with the lives of billions around the world.

  5. An end to all professional lobby groups that earn their living and their clients’ living from corrupting the professionally corruptible – vast numbers of world politicians and the overwhelming majority on Capitol Hill.

  6. An end to no-contract government in which mendacious politicians can promise the people they will do this and that to win their support and then do the very opposite after they have lied themselves into office (see Obama).

  7. An end to the centralisation of power in all areas of our lives and a start to diversifying power to communities to decide their own lives and thus ensure there are too many points of decision making for any cabal to centrally control.

That is just for starters. There is so much more where that came from. What good will come from rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic? NONE.

The banking system as we know it does not need to be ‘changed’ - it needs to be gone. It is a criminal activity based on fraud, extortion and, through its effect, on worldwide mass murder.

Its replacement needs to be decided by the population - not the very people who created it in the first place and are covertly manipulating a new global structure of financial control based on a world central bank.

[-] 1 points by burger55 (3) from Queens, NY 3 years ago

These are wise words, thought i would share them..

The David Icke Newsletter Goes Out On Sunday Any ‘protest’, any ‘change’ or ‘revolution’ not founded on the list below – at the very least the list below – has got no chance of changing anything. These very pillars of the system must fall or they will block any transformation of the human condition. The system does not need to be tinkered with or even fundamentally changed (on the surface). The whole bloody lot must go … starting with …

  1. An end to creating money out of thin air on computer screens and charging interest on it (fractional reserve lending).

  2. An end to governments borrowing fresh-air money called ‘credit’ from private banks and the people paying interest on this ‘money’ that has never, does not and will never exist. Governments (and that concept must change radically) can create their own currency – interest free.

  3. An end to private banks issuing non-existent money called ‘credit’ at all and thus creating ‘money’ as a debt from the very start.

  4. An end to casinos like Wall Street and the City of London betting mercilessly on the financial and commodity markets with the lives of billions around the world.

  5. An end to all professional lobby groups that earn their living and their clients’ living from corrupting the professionally corruptible – vast numbers of world politicians and the overwhelming majority on Capitol Hill.

  6. An end to no-contract government in which mendacious politicians can promise the people they will do this and that to win their support and then do the very opposite after they have lied themselves into office (see Obama).

  7. An end to the centralisation of power in all areas of our lives and a start to diversifying power to communities to decide their own lives and thus ensure there are too many points of decision making for any cabal to centrally control.

That is just for starters. There is so much more where that came from. What good will come from rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic? NONE.

The banking system as we know it does not need to be ‘changed’ - it needs to be gone. It is a criminal activity based on fraud, extortion and, through its effect, on worldwide mass murder.

Its replacement needs to be decided by the population - not the very people who created it in the first place and are covertly manipulating a new global structure of financial control based on a world central bank.

[-] 1 points by EndTheFedNow (692) 3 years ago

Does anyone have any idea what group the OP is referring to?

[-] 1 points by severansus (4) 3 years ago

Dear Occupiers, In my humble opinion I see merit in the proposal of the working group for a convention...

But whether or not OWS approves THIS proposal...

There will be GREAT merit seen in OWS' ability to propose something this bold and far-reaching and direct. Especially at this stage. The. proposal is impressive. We were excited... and filled witn some hope for the first time in a while... when we read it.

Carpe diem...the world is watching.

[-] 1 points by mikeh9 (18) 3 years ago

Good job guys you're more popular than Obama! See the link

http://rt.com/usa/news/occupy-wall-street-obama-869/

[-] 1 points by Davester (1) 3 years ago

Wall Street will do whatever theycan get away with. Consider going after the root cause--Congress. Consider a campaign to get them voted out of office and replaced with legislators more reponsive to their constituents.

[-] 1 points by owstag (508) 3 years ago

People who say "this is revolution" sound so ridiculous. This is a vague sustained protest/party with a few reasonable issues raised by a handful of intelligent people and a lot of silly kids essentially trying to imitate the 60s (some even to the point of wearing 60s period costumes - just in time for Halloween!).

If you ever spent 2 seconds in a real revolution you'd wet your pants.

[-] 1 points by evantcharpentier (1) from Jersey City, NJ 3 years ago

"We are our demands?"

???

I'm sorry, but what the hell does that even mean?

The 99% Declaration Group is trying to do something productive, and is seeking to cooperate as fully as possible with already-established OWS/NYCGA/99% groups.

Nobody's trying to "co-opt" anybody - the movement is growing. That's a good thing.

Let's not turn on each other and get all back-bitey over this.

[-] 1 points by FHampton (309) 3 years ago

From the journal N+1:

"With the help of Astra Taylor (Examined Life; Zizek!) and Sarah Leonard of Dissent, we’ve put together a history, both personal and documentary, and the beginning of an analysis of the first month of the occupation. Articles deal with the problem of the police; the history of the “horizontalist” management structure at OWS; how to keep a live-in going when what you’ve tried to shut down refuses to shut down (like Harvard, or Wall Street); on whether the Fed should be abolished; on where that Citibank arrest video came from; on occupations in Oakland, Philadelphia, Atlanta; on what happens next; and more.

It’s an attempt to begin to think through what is happening, written by people both on the ground and across the river. We hope you’ll read it and discuss it with us. There’s a lot more thinking and doing to do."

http://nplusonemag.com/read-our-new-gazette

[-] 1 points by gardenguy (27) 3 years ago

I fully agree, but continue to insist that a resonating voice can be established not by co-opting, but by instituting a new, grass roots, mobilized Democracy. Consider regular Purple Finger Votes to work towards a consensus. What is it we desire to accomplish? Without a harmonious answer, how can we expect to accomplish anything? Let's not go down in history as simply the canary in the coal mine of these times.

As Occupations expectedly diminish over the winter, why not mobilize mass numbers every other week rallying together to vote towards a consensus? Imagine the mass image of a multitude of purple fingers raised in solidarity of Democracy, not corporatocracy.

Create survey-like ballots in the General Assembly. Distribute inexpensively printed ballots, and release them online. Ink the fingers of all those who mobilize to participate in purple to ensure no one votes more than once. Are we not the 99%. What is it that we want?

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Like it.

[-] 1 points by tsdevi (307) 3 years ago

I just opened up another of Immanuel Wallerstein's works, World Systems Analysis. In the intro he describes accurately that governments are promoting two themes: globalism and terrorism, the later of which needs to be fought and stamped out. Globalism's promise of free markets has made it easier to exploit labor by allowing the free movement of corporations between state boundaries, as well as of their goods, meanwhile people are not free to move between state boundaries with freedom; especially not those who work in the factories producing the goods that move about the globe. It is key to understand the twists in finance that have emanated out of a lack of raw production in the U.S. as well as a lack of bank regulation. Finance, the business of making money out of money, is perceived by bankers as a wholly legitimate industry. To onlookers who do not understand how a person deserves or needs to earn hundreds of millions of dollars in one year as a hedge fund manager, the industry is wholly LACKING in legitimacy. Fraud and greed are nothing new to the human experience and surely not to the American experience, but they are to be scrutinized and challenged for their obvious inadequacy. Government, our government, has always been part and parcel of the economic order of the times. There is nothing new about an inherent conflict of interest when government and business are bedfellows, as this marriage is an old one. What is new is the deepened understanding of our rights to a more equitable and Democratic government. Globalization and terrorism are two sides of a dysfunction, that being that which discounts the will and needs of the people to live in economic peace and social peace. When decisions are made with regard only to financial or political gain, or both, then the interests of people who are not in power are undermined severely. If governments continue to kow tow to industry and the needs of industry instead of the needs of the people, it will make government obsolete. We need civil society and as impartial a governance as possible. It should not be the duty of government to keep the people occupied and so this Occupy Wall Street Movement is a critical method of demonstrating that We the People will no longer settle for being occupied by government or industry and that these should be occupied, instead, by the will of the people.

[-] 1 points by DJR (31) 3 years ago

POP: Principle, Organization, Persistence

[-] 1 points by Adam (116) 3 years ago

I represent myself, and always have. So do you. There is no collective. There is a wicked empire enslaving all of us. We can either keep sitting around with stupid signs accomplishing nothing, or we can organize and stop this for real. "We are our demands" is really dum. Whoever made that up needs to never speak again. The stolen wealth hoarded by the 1% must be distributed or we will all dire in pain. Get it?

[-] 1 points by duranta (52) from New Orleans, LA 3 years ago

"While we encourage the participation of autonomous working groups, no single person or group has the authority to make demands on behalf of general assemblies around the world."

Isn't that exactly what you are doing when you make a statement like that? It's my understanding that there is a not consensus attempt to quash the efforts of this group. Go back and look in the mirror. If the media asks an individual a question, you mean they can't answer it? I seriously doubt they spoke for the GA. They are very aware of the process, to my understanding. Let the people speak, argue, negotiate, debate, crticize, but don't try to quash the efforts aggressively. Shame if you do.

[-] 1 points by wesdavey (7) 3 years ago

I Support Occupy Wall Street. Wes Davey - Vermont, USA. http://www.zazzle.com/wesdavey

[-] 1 points by FHampton (309) 3 years ago

From Lenin's Tomb (http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-demands.html):

"...if we admit the possibility of a non-hysterical demand by the popular masses – a slogan, let us say – what would it look like? Here I'd suggest that the answer lies in the direct converse to the famous (and eminently hysterical) situationist graffito "Be realistic, demand the impossible!". Rather than formulate realistic but impossible demands, our "demands" must be unrealistic but nevertheless possible. And moreover they should be addressed diagonally, ie to both the ruling elite and the popular movement simultaneously, or more precisely, they should formally pose a demand addressed to the elite, but actually raise a slogan that engages and resonates with the movement – mobilising it and thereby subjectivating it from within.

A neat example of this was provided by an Independent front page last week. It was dominated by a table whose columns listed four "options" for the future of British troops in Iraq: what the option was, its pros and cons, who was calling for it and what its likelihood was. The leftmost column was "troops out now", called for by the Stop the War Coalition – and likelihood of this happening was, in the Independent's eyes – nil.

But while calling for troops out now is certainly "unrealistic" within the framework of bourgeois politics, it is nevertheless clearly possible – nothing in principle prevents it from happening. And it is the very raising of this demand from the radical left that has exacerbated divisions in the elite about what to do re Iraq. The demand forces its own possibility and reconfigures the frame of what is considered "realistic". One only need recall that prior to Stop the War demanding troops out now, the question of withdrawal from Iraq was never openly discussed in the bourgeois media – why, to even entertain the possibility would be Giving In To Terrorism... now we are treated to the bizarre spectacle of Simon Jenkins calling for rapid withdrawal, with a string of MI6 "experts" in tow!

But more important than this slogan's effects on the ruling elite, its exacerbation of a "crack in the big Other", is the mass political subjectivity that emerges through this crack. "Troops out now!" acts as a rallying point for anyone repulsed by the lies and prevarication that have characterised Blair's imperialist theatrics. But it simultaneously consolidates the anti-war movement, forcing all those involved to discern where our power lies, what our strengths are, and how we can rely on those strengths and powers instead of those of any putative Master figure.

One final example, this one taken from Bolshevik lore. It was June 1917 and Kerensky had formed a provisional government that included the Mensheviks and Social Revolutionaries – but also representatives of the capitalist parties such as the Cadets. The Bolsheviks refused to join such a government. But what was their demand/slogan to be? Their choice was "Down with the ten capitalist ministers!" – and Trotsky later explained the rationale behind this choice:

The enormous role of the Bolshevik slogan "Down with the ten capitalist ministers!" is well known, in 1917, at the time of the coalition between the conciliators and the bourgeois liberals. The masses still trusted the socialist conciliators but the most trustful masses always have an instinctive distrust for the bourgeoisie, for the exploiters and for the capitalists. On this was built the Bolshevik tactic during that specific period. We didn't say "Down with the socialist ministers!", we didn't even advance the slogan "Down with the provisional government!" as a fighting slogan of the moment, but instead we hammered on one and the same point: "Down with the ten capitalist ministers!" This slogan played an enormous role, because it gave the masses the opportunity to learn from their own experience that the capitalist ministers were closer and dearer to the conciliators than the working masses.

The precision of this slogan is astonishing. It cuts like a chisel at a fracture that only an understanding of class struggle allows one to discern. It acts simultaneously as a populist demand and a mobilising slogan. It separates those who are willing to fight from those who are not, to use one of Trotsky's characterisations of the united front. And it is a model for what our response should be to the obscure face-off between popular movements and liberal political elites that increasingly characterises this conjuncture."

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/10/on-demands.html

[-] 1 points by CRESCAS (2) 3 years ago

At the very center of OWS is the simple fact that in America money=power. It follows that: equal money=equal power. To redistribute power, you must redistribute money. The tea party abjures the redistribution of money because they want wall street to retain power. If ows wants to achieve an equitable allocation of power it will have to achieve an equitable allocation of money. There is no other way.

[-] 1 points by CRESCAS (2) 3 years ago

At the very center of OWS is the simple fact that in America money=power. It follows that: equal money=equal power. To redistribute power, you must redistribute money. The tea party abjures the redistribution of money because they want wall street to retain power. If ows wants to achieve an equitable allocation of power it will have to achieve an equitable allocation of money. There is no other way.

[-] 1 points by AmericanArtist (53) from New York, NY 3 years ago

'United We Stand ! Let's build our Nation and global planet Together ! Yes, we are Us ! Oneness is better than oneness . . .'

We are US ! Together we are One

Now is the Time . .

Please Help to Co-Create an Occupy only Wiki : Real Time, Global, Wiki Occupy, We are One

'''Wiki Occupy''' !

Paris London New York Tel Aviv San Francisco Tokyo Antwerp Miami Chicago Washington D.C. Main Street

Wherever you Are . . .

We are One !

Wiki Occupy

http://wikioccupy.org

[-] 1 points by MadAsHellInTX (598) from Shepherd, TX 3 years ago

Agreed. Make them guess, make them sweat. Fuck demands.

Most of us can agree about removing the money from politics, and booting corrupt politicians from office regardless of party; let 'em eat that cake.

[-] 1 points by madeinusa (393) 3 years ago

No more outsourcing and so called "free trade" support American jobs in the USA buy MADE IN USA

[-] 1 points by lifesprizes (298) 3 years ago

Bravo, you spin words like silk. Our demands we are

[-] 1 points by newwave (2) 3 years ago

Thank you, to those for the commitment and courage to finally take a stand..Many of us are on the sidelines but getting ready to join you. One question..I am sure that the powers that be are just waiting for winter to arrive and hope to see you go away..What are your plans for the coming cold weather?

[-] 1 points by ajm (2) from Nashville, TN 3 years ago

Those 4 are great but I want to see serious banking reform I want to see corporations paying their true share of taxes. I want the 99% demand that profitable corporations insisting on off-shoring production taxed on the re-importing of goods. I want a single payer health system so people are not living in fear of the unexpected health catastrophe. I want us to mimic India and provide a $35 computer to every school child and stop blaming teachers for the recession.

We have a choice...be a Banana Republic or a modern, equable state. The powers that be are choosing a third world future for us and we need to stop them.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 3 years ago

"make DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than making DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness." ---- I'm on your side. I think making demands right now would be a bad idea. I used to be one of those folks thinking we need demands right away. Now, thanks to many patient and wise people posting on this site, I realize that right now is a time for discussion, a time for discovering what we, the 99% have in common. We, the 99% have been divided for so long, carping at each other.

I now see that this discord was deliberate. It was manufactured by the media machine owned by the 1%. Having that level of discord among the people, the 99%, is the only way the 1% could rule over and exploit the 99%. Because, when you get right down to it, it is absolutely absurd that the 1% be ruling the 99%, especially in a system where each person gets a vote.

So, yes, we can and should discuss goals. We should discuss everything. Now is a time for talking about the new society we want to build. Now is the time to discover how many things we have in common. For once we realize we are the 99%, once we realize that we have more things in common than we have differences, we will be in a position to make DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than making DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness.

One last point. Obviously we, the 99%, will want to be very careful how we phrase things. The language we use must be as inclusive as the message. And, if we're advocating democracy, we should avoid having our language or message sound shadowy or authoritarian.

I personally think, no matter what our pure motive and how good our hearts are (really good I think), we should avoid talking about "controlling the message" or "requiring permission" etc. Or, of we do, choose softer terms and, more importantly, give reference to WHO would be giving permission to speak with the press etc. Even though you might know it's the General Assembly, others might not know that if you don't reference it and it can sound like a Dick Cheney operation.

This is not intended to be a harsh criticism. Who am I to criticize people who are giving up their time away from friends and family to fight on our behalf to build a better nation? I have spent time in the park and love you all. Sincerely. I'm just speaking with a voice of love and support saying that I want this to succeed and I'm trying to point out a spot where we may need to tighten up.

[-] 1 points by wesdavey (7) 3 years ago

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[-] 1 points by wesdavey (7) 3 years ago

WE ARE OUR DEMANDS!!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE, POWER TO THE 99%!!!! YAY!!!! Show You were (are) There, Show You Care, Slow You Support "OCCUPY WALL STREET",.... WEAR A T-SHIRT: OCCUPY WALL STREET, OCCUPY THE WORLD!!!! Text; Front & Back; Sizes: sm - 3XL. <div style="text-align:center;line-height:150%"><a href="http://www.zazzle.com/wall_street_t_shirt-235786306726670974?gl=wesdavey"><img src="http://rlv.zcache.com/wall_street_t_shirt-p235786306726670974z6fpl_325.jpg" alt="Wall Street: T-Shirt shirt" style="border:0;" /></a><br /><a href="http://www.zazzle.com/wall_street_t_shirt-235786306726670974?gl=wesdavey">Wall Street: T-Shirt</a> by <a href="http://www.zazzle.com/wesdavey">wesdavey</a><br />Browse other <a href="http://www.zazzle.com/occupy+tshirts">Occupy T-Shirts</a></div>

[-] 1 points by wesdavey (7) 3 years ago

WE ARE OUR DEMANDS!!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE, POWER TO THE 99%!!!! YAY!!!! Show You were (are) There, Show You Care, Slow You Support "OCCUPY WALL STREET",.... WEAR A T-SHIRT: OCCUPY WALL STREET, OCCUPY THE WORLD!!!! Text; Front & Back; Sizes: sm - 3XL. <div style="text-align:center;line-height:150%"><a href="http://www.zazzle.com/wall_street_t_shirt-235786306726670974?gl=wesdavey"><img src="http://rlv.zcache.com/wall_street_t_shirt-p235786306726670974z6fpl_325.jpg" alt="Wall Street: T-Shirt shirt" style="border:0;" /></a><br /><a href="http://www.zazzle.com/wall_street_t_shirt-235786306726670974?gl=wesdavey">Wall Street: T-Shirt</a> by <a href="http://www.zazzle.com/wesdavey">wesdavey</a><br />Browse other <a href="http://www.zazzle.com/occupy+tshirts">Occupy T-Shirts</a></div>

[-] 1 points by John123 (5) 3 years ago

9 step plan" doctrine v. Demands Working Group... you decide!

Occupy Wall st with David Ferola “9'step plan” at hand

Click http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/

For Occupy funny pix Click http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/apps/blog/

[-] 1 points by John123 (5) 3 years ago

David Ferola is the man and he has the "9'step plan" doctrine

unlike the 'Demands Working Group' we say, take what you will of the plan doctrine make you your own. Fashion it in your own image "9'step plan" doctrine lets you do that!

"9 step plan" doctrine

Step1) Send your TAXES to a trusted congressman or congresswoman which maybe hard to find in your state. Prepare your taxes, made out to the I.R.S check and envelope, and a stamp. Fit it in inside of a bigger envelope, onto which you should write congress address, preferably your state congress.

Washington, DC 203 Cannon House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Phone Number: (202) 225-2831

Have congress unwrap the envelopes, state you want your taxes to be mailed to the I.R.S

If you are asking yourself, what will this achieve first it can be used as a bargain chip however, congress cannot spend it or over take the fed reserve and banks system over night, nonetheless this will indeed give teeth/meat, back to congress. You should include a sign return receipt so as to show proof you paid your taxes.

STEP2) At every rally SHOUT “Send you taxes to Congress now”

Step 3) OWNERSHIP: With meat and teeth congress can demand ownership of the Federal Reserve, as to how much, well a good start would be 45% of course congress should have full control of the fed reserve. However, letting the opposition think you’re a fair man goes a long way.

Occupy with David Ferola “9 step plan” at hand

for the rest http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/

For Occupy funny pix http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/apps/blog/

[-] 1 points by bobthebuilder123 (6) 3 years ago

That's great. But what about Garcia

http://www.birdsnest.com/garcia.htm

[-] 1 points by ANDROLOMA (6) 3 years ago

Forget demands... how about a coherent agenda? You can't replace the status quo with vacuum. This movement MUST present a defined goal, or risk having its participants dismissed as anarchists. Then all aims will be crushed by the powers that be, and they will consider themselves justified by such atrocity.

I want the movement to succeed. It won't if everyone fails to realize the nature of power: They have the right to do anything to us we can't stop them from doing, up to and including mass reprisals. Please. This has to end sometime. Give the masters something tangible to concede, or be prepared for even more scorn, and possible authoritarian repression.

Good luck to the movement. Its goal are noble.

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

We are everyday moving towards a coherent agenda. It's called Living. It's taking shape. We are setting up the infrastructure to facilitate it. We are discussing the means and methods, and we're discussing the why's and which. We are not sitting around whining. We are actively engaged in progress. You just can't see it from afar unless a camera crew happens by or you choose to stop by yourself. We are creating our future civilization and anyone that wants to carry over baggage from the current systems should consider starting their own movement. We don't need demands and we should not make demands. We need to create our opportunities. To clarify... we are engaged in intelligent discussions, we're not just talking occupying the plaza.

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Agreed. The Demands are getting out of hand, and the demands group is out of control. If they were so damn enthusiastic, why didn't they form their own demands protest long ago? This whole thing strikes me as misguided and has the potential to derail the true purpose of the OWS movement. We need to ensure that no group or individual gains enough authority / power to damage the movement, and no one speaks to the media without permission given that it represents the rest of the protesters when they do. Great job in reigning in the propaganda OWS. Teamwork rules. :)

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 3 years ago

"make DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than making DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness." ---- I'm on your side. I think making demands right now would be a bad idea. I used to be one of those folks thinking we need demands right away. Now, thanks to many patient and wise people posting on this site, I realize that right now is a time for discussion, a time for discovering what we, the 99% have in common. We, the 99% have been divided for so long, carping at each other.

I now see that this discord was deliberate. It was manufactured by the media machine owned by the 1%. Having that level of discord among the people, the 99%, is the only way the 1% could rule over and exploit the 99%. Because, when you get right down to it, it is absolutely absurd that the 1% be ruling the 99%, especially in a system where each person gets a vote.

So, yes, we can and should discuss goals. We should discuss everything. Now is a time for talking about the new society we want to build. Now is the time to discover how many things we have in common. For once we realize we are the 99%, once we realize that we have more things in common than we have differences, we will be in a position to make DECISIONS from a position of unified strength rather than making DEMANDS from a position of divided weakness.

One last point. Obviously we, the 99%, will want to be very careful how we phrase things. The language we use must be as inclusive as the message. And, if we're advocating democracy, we should avoid having our language or message sound shadowy or authoritarian.

I personally think, no matter what our pure motive and how good our hearts are (really good I think), we should avoid talking about "controlling the message" or "requiring permission" etc. Or, of we do, choose softer terms and, more importantly, give reference to WHO would be giving permission to speak with the press etc. Even though you might know it's the General Assembly, others might not know that if you don't reference it and it can sound like a Dick Cheney operation.

This is not intended to be a harsh criticism. Who am I to criticize people who are giving up their time away from friends and family to fight on our behalf to build a better nation? I have spent time in the park and love you all. Sincerely. I'm just speaking with a voice of love and support saying that I want this to succeed and I'm trying to point out a spot where we may need to tighten up.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Great points.

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

NO offense taken. I know I sometimes speak too casually and people who are wordsmiths pick apart each letter to discern the intended missage. I do believe we have to come to terms with 100% freedom, 100% responsibility, 100% collective, 100% rights. And so on. We the people are the general assembly so all I meant is that no one should be claiming they speak for the OWS movement until we have agreed that they do. We being the general assembly. Thanks for the clarification. I don't know who is authorized by the general assembly to speak with the media, but I believe a number of groups have that privilege right now, and others may be able to acquire the same privilege, but these groups currently discuss their communications with each other before the messages are broadcast. And as mentioned elsewhere, everyone is allowed to speak on their own behalf, they are not allowed to speak on anyone else's behalf without consent from the others. Hence permission from the general assembly.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 3 years ago

I totally agree. I think that's a foolproof system really. It's beautiful. Self-policing because it all comes back to the general assembly that anyone can be a part of.

Many of us are hundreds or thousands of miles away from Liberty Plaza. I can't tell you how fortunate we feel that a group of brave and hearty souls like you all are out there on the front lines. When I spent time in the park, I was heartened by the friendly, festive and peaceful vibe. The place was buzzing in a good way. People are eager to hear each other's ideas and listen to one another. The calm and efficient sense of organization, the cleanliness, the vibrant texture of color, the smiles, the music...It just all weaves together in the senses as a beautiful tapestry, a shining example of what this country can be if we begin again.

Gandhi said " Be the change you want to see in the world" and you all in that park are doing exactly that. You are building the foundation on which a new society will be built and we owe you a great debt indeed.

Thank you. Sincerely. We are with you. We will support you, resupply you, defend you, spread your messages, shine a light on those who attack you...Whatever you need, we have your back.

[-] 1 points by rugids (11) 3 years ago

Until we all enter a mature consideration of self understanding of reality itself , our individual patterns and conditions, and become responsible for our reactions and reacuring patterns we won't be able to transcend our egoic action (me me me iii self self self) to create a global cooperative forum based on prior unity of human kind.

not two is peace by Adi Da Samraj

[-] 1 points by HistoryNow (1) 3 years ago

You don't threaten the 1% until you know the truth which is hard to relay concisely.
You have not defined the enemy precisely. "Know thy self, know thy enemy" Sun Tzu. The enemy is beyond what you see and hear. They are the puppet masters. To know this enemy you need to study them in overall arc of history from the foundations. It has been an on going fight. You do not know how brainwashed you are. There are a lot of wise people contributing now. I hope you keep your mind open and are ready to do the do diligences that is required .

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Agreed. CAn you shed some light? Tell us your idea of the "arc" and how we can use it to guide the movement.

[-] 1 points by jomojo (562) 3 years ago

Congressional members should be made to be identify themselves not only by party affiliation and state, but also their largest contributor. I doubt if many could say citizens were their largest.

[-] 1 points by iceman (1) 3 years ago

Your DEMAND should be NO MORE FRACTIONAL BANKING! Thus only REAL CURRENCY, preferably gold currency, thus intrest free currency: http://www.margritkennedy.de/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gV9A2IGShuk#!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2550156453790090544

[-] 1 points by SaRaIam (105) 3 years ago

It took me a while to see the merit of not posting an official list of demands, but I'm beginning to get it. But what about an articulation of what we support? What is the alternative to the corporate light bulb?

[-] 1 points by Cisco (1) 3 years ago

Agendas are for people who have a seat at the table. OWS is about building a new table. (Or rug, or hypercube, or whatever it turns out to be).

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 3 years ago

To me, demands are a poor choice of words

It would seem that clearly defined Goals would be a better approach. By defining your goals you can come up with concrete plans to achieve your goals.

And weather you want goals or not, they are already forming.

so far to date they are:

1) To unite 99% of the population in protest against injustice

2) To inform the community at large as to what is taking place in our world

3) To get video of the protests into the public domain

And: 4) To get some form of democratic process in place to find workable solutions to the afore mentioned injustices

Weather you like it or not Goals are there already. OWS just needs to take the next step to plan on meeting those goals. You'll make mistakes, to be sure, but it's time to make those mistakes

[-] 1 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

I do agree about the goals, they are implicit in every sign held up, every protester with a dollar bill taped to his mouth.

The specific remedies will arrive when needed, in the fullness of time. This has only been going on for a little more than a month, why the hurry? I don't think a fifteen-minutes-of-fame rule applies to a revolution. If that came out too snarky, I apologize, not intended as a snark.

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 3 years ago

Because you guys have the country's attention, and Americans are so ADD. The goal are already there, and I think people are ready, if not in immediate need, of change.

though I can understand a want for letting the message 'ripen' if you will. And no, it didn't come across snarky, I can be ADD at times.

[-] 1 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

",,,I can be ADD at times." Aren't we all. Our culture has a peculiar bent that way, we're all prone to it.

About the "ripening," good point. For purely strategic reasons, it might be best to hold off any specific plans until the movement grows a little more. Cool to have a gigantic march on Washington, followed by a release of prospective solutions. But I'm letting my imagination get the best of me. I suppose it's best to stay in the moment.

[-] 1 points by thoughtmark (6) 3 years ago

"A group claiming to be affiliated with the General Assembly of Liberty Square and #ows has been speaking to the media on behalf of our movement. This group is not empowered by the NYC General Assembly. This group is not open-source and does not act by consensus."

Then, the Demands Working Group are people who are impostures, frauds, and have no Occupy Wall St force in what they say or claim.

As for people using this opportunity to reveal their vast ignorance (an inexcusable ignorance given that you are commenting) of the Occupy Wall St movement in the form of confused attacks, we have compassion for you, offer you our love, and we hope you can find your way out of your delusions about the world you live in. Perhaps we need to actually change the world for you so you can accept that the one you have now is a lie. That will happen, but it will not happen overnight. Nonviolence, justice, and solidarity, ~ Mark

[-] 1 points by earthrevival (1) 3 years ago

how can I post this statement on FB?

[-] 1 points by Samoa (1) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

We gather together. All people, all point of views. All are welcome to stand together. No leader, no demand. Just the unified people occupying the Wall Street! Let the 1% know that we are in their face. A demand will divide us. Unite with love!

[-] 1 points by nedbojo (1) 3 years ago

I wish I could share this post on my facebook. I'm from LA and am having a hard time with "demands." I don't think we should have them and agree with "we are our demands."

[-] 1 points by ahab (1) 3 years ago

I'll tell you what's ironic: that this new working group / rogue spin-off is already talking about incorporating to raise funds! Smell a money rat, anyone? Consider how they have conducted themselves in terms of strategy and organization. FIRST came the press release that "someone" leaked to the mainstream media. Seriously? I was enticed, I spent a few days on all of their forums/pages/etc and I have decided that this group has NO idea what they are doing. they are incredibly poorly organized...it just makes me sad that they are wasting people's time that could be better spent working towards ACTUAL change instead of arguing with each other in four different forums. seriously, just pick one website and go with it. To top it off, I felt like they were really just pushing the same old (ahem: "i'm so radical i have black friends") agenda that dems have been so unsuccessfully pushing. I wouldn't be surprised if this "group" were a plant meant to "fracture" the movement. The mainstream media just loves seeing a "revolution" fracture itself, doesn't it? I'm done with this group...I'm all in favor of hashing out ideas with folks who want to work on actual solutions, not just point figures and be confusing. NOT COOL.

[-] 1 points by john62 (10) 3 years ago

People just standing your ground alone is not enough.people need to march on Washington D.C. Gov't and banks are one in the same. People need to unite and demand for change in the way Gov't operates. For the people and not for the lining of their own pockets. we need for America to wake up and march on D.C. Millions not just thousands.Change will come but it will take the will of the people to make this happen. Come on America wake up and stop supporting the big banks and Bad gov't.

[-] 1 points by PomegranateMind (2) from Millersville, PA 3 years ago

We are currently in a time where there are too many voices, too many opinions, to become any kind of cohesive unit. However, we can all still share an idea. If we feel this idea strongly enough, even if we do not agree on how it should be put to use, we should still act on it. If you or I see a truck coming at us, and we know it's going to cause damage, we have every right to yell about it and attempt to stop it or get out of the way. There is no indecency about how we conduct ourselves at that moment, because quite simply, we are trying to survive. I feel that under the current state of things, this group best respresents that thought process. We are trying to shake free of an overly oppressive force by acting on a type of instinct. We still need someone to lead this group mentality, and I'm sure we'll find a person to do it, but until then just do what you can. We have been raised in a society that teaches us if we want to make ourselves heard, we have to talk louder. I believe you are accomplishing this both literally and metaphorically.

Now to those who would like to insult and debase this group: If you sincerely feel that there is nothing wrong in your life, then by all means continue. If you feel that there is no greed or corruption inside of Wall Street, then please, call me a lemming, an urchin, or whatever other insulting, crude word you can come up with. If you think there isn't a single reason for these people to be doing what they're doing, if you see, hear, and feel, no evil from the current economic structure where we have gone from a 4 person family being able to, on one job, afford a house, college, and health care, to a three person family where both family members work two jobs and can't even make any extra money for their child to go to college, within a century, then please, continue to squabble with them for every bit of anger you feel against them.

I am not a supporter. I am not a protestor. I have not contributed in any way to this cause nor am I adversely effected if it simply sinks into the ground. However, my sense of justice wants to support them, and so I will.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Good post.

[-] 1 points by Dost (315) 3 years ago

It's okay to have no leaders. But, you need facilitators and spokespeople. Do you have them?

[-] 1 points by FedBuster (6) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Like it or not, we already have leaders. But they are not people who we decide to empower to make decisions for us. We are lead by the IDEAS that are resonating amongst us... then certain individuals and smallers groups are running with them.

We need to hone the process of sanctioning these ideas as we see by the failures of this 'Working Group'. Who can sanction action? That is the question. Is it the NYCGA? Too exclusive... so how do we create a National General Assembly? That's the big question before us...

Or perhaps Occupy Wall Street, Occupy LA, Occupy SF, Occupy (etc., etc., etc...) need to be autonomous and loosely affiliated?? That would give each city its own nimble ability to act. But the danger here is that one city might demand far left actions and another far-right actions as their demographics dictate... could pose a problem of continuity for the greater Occupy movement.

[-] 1 points by andersonna (5) 3 years ago

People want your demands because your movement doesn't make sense to 99% of us. Some of the ridiculous posts on here talk about massive wealth redistribution (theft) and income equality regardless of profession as your nirvana. I realize that a few posts don't represent your entire movement, I'm just wondering "what is your utopia"? Take a look at the rest of the world. What is "better" than America? What should our country look like? China? USSR?? North Korea??? What could be better than America??

[-] 1 points by nyangeloxo (52) 3 years ago

costa rica.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Hey, Anderson. I think the extreme views that we see here sometimes are a needed push-back to the current system. Alot of us are more moderate and want compromise but that is not a position with much passion. We all like to see the discussions as possible alternatives and are glad to see public political conversations. It's heartening to know there is still a community of thinking people that could come to some solutions to moving America forward in the next century and beyond. The fervent on here are hashing out their ideas and looking for the best possible outcome. The crazy and implausible will be weeded out because of their nature, hopefully. I personally am so greatful to live in America and hope we can get the money out of politics and educate the next generation to not fall prey to the greed that lead us to this place. My Utopia.

[-] 1 points by andersonna (5) 3 years ago

I think the extreme views out here marginalize the rest of you and make meaningful discussion impossible.

[-] 1 points by SilentDiver (1) from Sekotong Tengah, Nusa Tenggara Barat 3 years ago

What is "better" than America? - how about America without the ingrained corruption, corporate domination and all the bad stuff it does to humans both domestically and world-wide.

OWS isn't trying to change America into some other existing country, it's talking about starting anew.

[-] 1 points by andersonna (5) 3 years ago

America, in its CURRENT form, is the most successful societal experiment of all time. EVER. End of discussion.

Ending corruption in Washington is a rally cry ANYONE can get behind. But to suggest the total scrapping of the greatest nation in the history of the world is beyond ridiculous.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Direct democracy.

[-] 1 points by username13 (1) 3 years ago

They want demands because the see you as children. Like spoiled brats throwing a temper tantrum at the grocery store. They think themselves the parents, seeking to restore the status quot. They want demands because they want to know what candy bar they can give you so you'll shut the f**k up.

By giving demands, you are only reenforcing this flawed perspective. Demands in this sense are no more than a more forceful way of saying "Mommy, I want that one!" You are allowing them to have the authoritative role in the conversation by being the one asking for something.

You are doing the CORRECT thing by not doing so. If you goals really are as you claim (and I hope) than by not giving them a easy way out is like, from their perspective, that screaming child that no one knows what to do to console them. It will, and obviously already is, driving them nuts. They don't know how to stop you if you don't tell them how. If they want to play the parent role in this society, lets show them what bad parents they really are!

[-] 1 points by nico721 (4) from Erie, PA 3 years ago

Right on! Now is the time that we take this on at the root so we no longer need to do this again. You're right that we shouldn't have a plural form of demands because that will only allow them to "shut us up". While at the same time it isn't good to not have a demand at all since the media could twist that to seem as if the protesters are uneasy and unwilling to resolve the conflict. So we need the one demand that would justify each and every problem; changing the system. When it comes down to it we shouldn't even have to be there practically asking for permission to better humanity. We should already have the opportunity to say what goes as a unified whole.

[-] 1 points by nico721 (4) from Erie, PA 3 years ago

Hey, I am nico and wish to be there in New York city with all of my fellow brothers and sisters that are supporting every human in ways not everyone may understand yet. Currently I am unable to afford going there, but am extremely urged to share my insight. I see that the media is attempting to twist the perception of what is really going on and is focusing on guiding the outcome of this remarkable event. We need to not be fooled by their trickery when it comes to why and what exactly we stand for. It is far from a direct list of demands, and in fact it really only comes down to a single demand. We need a change, a change in our global system, that will be completely beneficial towards this planets absolute desire for EQUALITY. Whether that is by alternating our current system to become balanced, or by completely annihilating this extremely out-dated system while building a new one based on unity, co-operation, and creativity. As far as wages go it shouldn't be about demanding a raise because that will still implement our issues of inequality within our financial system. If anything we should demand to work for free as long as everyone on this planet gets an equal share of commodities. Education shouldn't be about a money plot neither, but about an individual pursuing their inner-creativity as a human of humanity to be what they enjoy. We do need a world that stands together, but not a world manipulated by currency control. We need equality and freedom, and once we have that every problem will fix itself.

-your brother

[-] 1 points by Anonfyter (3) 3 years ago

What a mess. This is just a bunch of noise and noise accomplishes nothing except sucking the life out of the noise makers.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Did the Declaration of Independence make demands of England, or purposefully STOP making demands of England by stating "we"ll do it better ourselves?"

[-] 1 points by ETBass (65) 3 years ago

This is priceless

[-] 1 points by Anonfyter (3) 3 years ago

No one has the right to demand our subservience to a general assembly...that is opposite of what we are all about .

[-] 1 points by argos74 (1) 3 years ago

we need to clearly state our goals on this website.. I'm from Jersey and people here don't have a clue.. It's so frustrating... What people think here is that we have lots of complains but not clear objectives.. What do we really want to achieve? I know what i expect from this but me saying it is no t helpful enough.. Let's make it somehow official

[-] 1 points by Anonfyter (3) 3 years ago

Who has the right to even create a general assembly and breathe power into it? There is no structure. There is no hierarchy. There is only ' we exist '

[-] -1 points by OWSuMakeMeLaugh (-4) 3 years ago

There is and will always continue be a hierarchy, social classes and some people more successful than others. Will never ever change. Get a job and try to make a name for yourself.

[-] 1 points by OWSuMakeMeLaugh (-4) 3 years ago

Please help me understand what you want the 1 percent to do? Give u their money, be taxed more, what?

Wanna make more money or see change? Make it happen. Offer suggestions. Offer a plan. Don't just act like kids and just yell, bang on drums and complain cause life isn't fair. "We are our demands" you say. More like "we are lazy" and glad others are lazy with us and love having donations so we don't need to work for food or clothes. Heres an idea...do what you preach and invite every homeless person in NYC and give them food, clothes and shelter.

OWS you make me laugh....A LOT.

[-] 2 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 3 years ago

Have you even read the replies in this thread? They aren't just banging drums, they are self-governing.

[-] 2 points by OWSInfonaut (4) from Lake Elsinore, CA 3 years ago

seriously, I wish all the people saying they aren't organized and working towards a common goal would just watch the streams and listen for awhile... they are working very diligently to move forward. Give them time, eventually it will all come together.

[-] 1 points by Sherry (11) 3 years ago

While I completely support the OWS movement, statements like "No single person or group has the authority to make demands on behalf of general assemblies" around the world sounds a bit authoritarian. Who gives you the authority to make that statement? I certainly did not and I can't imagine all of my fellow OWS members gave you the authority to make that statement. I don't think the group you refer to, that is loosely affiliated with the OWS movement, is claiming to speak for all. They are simply voicing their views and they have that right, absolutely. I don't even know who they are but I do KNOW they have the right to speak freely. At this point, there are many factions to the OWS movment, as there should be. If we follow the logic posted here, then, theoretically, OWS protesters would not have the right to speak for fellow Americans because they don't represent all Americans. Do you see how careful we need to be about others' rights to speak? Otherwise, we go straight into George Orwell's Animal Farm (required reading these days). Keep doing the good work, but be ultra mindful before you put out statements that might impinge or diminish the rights and views of others and that are tied to the ego of a movement that is still forming, morphing and becoming whatever it will become. Though a little concerned, I offer this with love and appreciation, Sherry

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

no one is preventing them from speaking. they are clarifying the position of the GA towards this group so that there is no misrepresentation.

[-] 1 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

This was a statement made to widen the authority of everyone. If no single person or group has the authority to make demands," then no single person or group can co opt the movement. I believe this was an expression of the great number of people in this movement all having an equal voice and therefore quite appropriate.

[-] 1 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 3 years ago

Wouldn't it be crazier to say that one person or one group has a right to speak for everyone? If you can't even say the opposite of that, then you can't say much of anything at all.

[-] 1 points by Sherry (11) 3 years ago

good point.

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

That is one crazy logical knot you tied there Sherry.

[-] 1 points by Sherry (11) 3 years ago

Dubby, Thanks for the belly laugh. My husband says I talk in circles, so he would appreciate your knot comparison! Hopefully you get the gist of what I was trying to say, however badly I said it. And I agree with MyHeartSpits reply above. I guess I just want us to be mindful of not denouncing the views of groups who align with OWS but have different viewpoints than say the "mainstream" OWS (if there is such a thing) when that group receives some media attention. And the word "authority" always gets me going (but that's a long story). Best wishes, Sherry

[-] 1 points by drbob707 (6) from Beach Haven, NJ 3 years ago

Agree that "demands" is not the right approach, but OWS has already said that it for the 99% and raised their expectations. To gather large numbers of supporters from the 99%, which we must have to have any real political impact, we must sustain our credibility by developing well founded "proposals" to address problems. Some group has to start working on that. Suggest that the GA empower such a group subject to strict guidelines on work quality, transparency, consensus building and coordination with the GA.

[-] 1 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

Proposals pidgeonhole the movement and put it into a box. It must fight for Justice and equality no matter what the issue is.

[-] 1 points by ny2cnz (1) 3 years ago

I think the demands were pretty well laid out in the first collective reading of OWS. We want ALL of these things changed!

http://current.com/shows/countdown/videos/special-comment-keith-reads-first-collective-statement-of-occupy-wall-street

[-] 1 points by Christopher7 (1) from Placerville, CA 3 years ago

The "Demands Working Group" is not affiliated with the GA of Liberty Square. It has been dropped from the site.

What about the rest of that website? http://www.nycga.net/

Is this really the General Assembly of Liberty Square?

I don't see a direct link from this website.

[-] 1 points by rohjo (92) 3 years ago

Bravo. Your innate intelligence still stands, surviving all onslaughts. Occupy Wall Street holds up a Stop sign, for all to see and ponder.

If #OWS starts listing demands, then who exactly would comprise #OWS? Agenda-keepers--the new "spokespersons"--would soon divide and conquer the so-called leaderless resistance movement.

[-] 1 points by jackiews (7) from Buffalo, NY 3 years ago

Okay, is this the 99%declaration? I just looked at their site, and realized that I've read their declaration earlier this week, and yes, I did think it spoke for OWS. I'm usually careful to look for ows.org in the address bar. I most probably linked to it through either this or Buffalo's Occupy site or OccupyBuffalo on facebook, as that's where I go for current occupy info. Their declaration sounded startlingly ambitious, though possible. But I did experience disappointment that demands had been already been made. Like many, I figured early on that within perhaps a month, there would be specific demands, and we'd see from there. Now, I think it is pure brilliance to stick with no demands. This is truly a people's movement. I like "we are our demands". Everyone has demands. The point, I think, is to show just how fed up the citizenry is. More people are out or talking out everyday. Instead of the usual devisive A-B conversations, where neither side will ever convince the other, I'm seeing inclusive "oh really? tell me more" conversations happening. Build the numbers. Stay non-violent and open. The rest will coalesce. Power to the People.

[-] 3 points by FedBuster (6) from New York, NY 3 years ago

I agree that we are our demands. But I do think we should celebrate our CORE COMMON GOALS!

Agreed that political positions will divide us into smaller %s so we need to celebrate the Universal Goals of this movement:

  • Reform the financial 'system' to be just and accountable
  • Reform our Government to be truly Of the People, For the People and By the People.

Can we at least adopt these as our stated unifying goals?

[-] 1 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

No. These are part of the overall goal which is, peace, justice and equality. Those are the ends but not the means. The means are to push because the oligarchies already know where the problems lie. We must push them to change. They know what people want. They know what can be done to change it. Just keep pushing and dont stop.

[-] 1 points by FedBuster (6) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Being vague and idealistic is to invite division and discord. This is not a general peace movement. This is not an overarching justice movement. We know what injustices we are here for. They are specific and quantifiable, not abstract and woo woo. If we are not concise, our movement is just a bunch of noise.

[-] 2 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

If you are too concise....as widely differing as the viewpoints appear to be.....you will alienate many in the 99%.

[-] 1 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 3 years ago

Good point. This is what we need to bring to the GA. You coming?

[-] 1 points by FedBuster (6) from New York, NY 3 years ago

You bet.

[-] 1 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

demands perpetuate the illusion that America has a working democracy that can be meaningfully petitioned.

[-] 2 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

What we are doing exposes that rift. What happens when that is generally recognized is yet to be seen.

[-] 1 points by Someone (23) 3 years ago

right

[-] 1 points by jackiews (7) from Buffalo, NY 3 years ago

What group is that? So I can be sure to avoid them.

[-] 1 points by lish (1) 3 years ago

How can you stand for something if no one knows what you want? Your demands absolutely need to focus on financial regulation - like reinstating the Glass Steagall act. You have the world's attention - you will lose it if you don't focus now. Don't get distracted and don't be vague.

[-] 2 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

Everyone knows what we want. We have to push them. They will move but slowly toward what we want. They are already moving, can you not see that? They are struggling even now, trying to determine how much they will have to give to make this stop. Our job is to keep this up until true justice is done. This is not a one month job. This is not a one year job. This is a full time generational job. And it must be done.

[-] 2 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 3 years ago

They do know what we want, that's the whole point. If we say what we want, they'll just give us nothing and twist our message into a divisive tangle.

[-] 1 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

Correct. Do not fall into the trap of the serpent who pretends it is sleeping but will bite you in an instant. The calls of, Gee, I want to help you but I dont know what you want are meant to corner you so that they have to give less. This is a negotiation to them. It is what they do all day. They think you are no different but at the same time, they are afraid because they wonder, what if you are?

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Word.

[-] 1 points by kroberts01999 (18) 3 years ago

The next phase is arriving. What we do next must be to achieve Critical Mass. How do we reach out to the conservative working classes? I say it is how we behave at the demonstrations. This is serious business, not Lollapalooza. Martin Luther King and Ghandi did not use satire to change the world. They used physical courage with humble dignity. I realize Yippie stagecraft is clever and amusing, but it plays right into the mainstream media narrative, which we have thwarted up to this point, and just like being non-violent and not having specific demands, confuses them, so must our tone be serious, not mocking, that way too we will disarm them. The most successful movements encompass the working classes, not make fun of them with too clever jokes

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Slow down. We have been doing this for only 4 weeks. The mass you speak of will take many more months, and much more economic suffering. We don't need to appeal to everyone, we need to be, and they will appeal to us. We are not exclusive, they are not ready.

What the fuck are you talking about regarding the mockery? No one has been making fun of people... who are you directing such comments to? Individuals here on the comments, or people within the OWS movement in specific sites? People in the comments could be sympathizers or trolls or opponents. You can't believe most of the crap here.

[-] 1 points by kroberts01999 (18) 3 years ago

So much has happened in four weeks, I may be getting ahead of myself. Yet, my concern is that we continue to Keep It Simple. We do not have to appeal to everyone? The 99% includes nearly everyone. My desire is that we behave in a way that does not play into the cultural faultlines the 1% use to divide us. I feel the people are with us. We have radical ideas and that is good, but we are trying to win "hearts and minds", which calls for humility and compassion. We are angry, but we must act with love in our hearts. Thanks for your response.

[-] 1 points by enough (589) 3 years ago

The absence of demands can mean that #OWS stands for anything or it can mean that #OWS stands for nothing. Whatever. That position may appear attractive from a metaphysical standpoint but may ultimately be meaningless in a practical sense if the objective of #OWS is to get something real accomplished for the better.

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[-] 1 points by DonHawkins (37) 3 years ago

Stay strong the darkside is clever if nothing else...........

[-] 1 points by DonHawkins (37) 3 years ago

Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!

[-] 1 points by teddy (6) from Bedford, VA 3 years ago

excuse me if I missed this in the comments, but can anyone tell me who this group is and who they are talking to?

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[-] 1 points by doktorgee (1) 3 years ago

Actions speak louder than demands. Do you know your own strength? http://amoleintheground.blogspot.com/

[-] 1 points by comncnts (1) 3 years ago

Flat tax rate. Excessive profits tax. Salary cap plus bonuses, in which bonuses are paid equally paid to all employees. My plan for leveling thd field. No one is worth $100 million a year

[-] 1 points by Someone (23) 3 years ago

Great conversation. I see both sides. But from a PR vantage point, everyone is using the Mainstream Media Model to depict what will/will not happen if we don't come up with a proper soundbyte to 'sell' the movement. Hahaha, don't you see the trap? THEY control the media not us. Our soundbyte will be turned into a sound-turd.

The miracle, yes the legitimate MIRACLE of #OWS is that it has tackled extremely complex issues and discovered that the public isn't THAT uninformed. They see and understand. #OWS has a real dialogue going with the public-at-large.

The problems we are dealing with are complicated and don't all fit on a picket sign, i've commented about that HERE:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/not-varied-agendas-as-claimed-by-media/

So, don't make the mistake of thinking the People's Agenda is weak or needs to be compressed into one easily manipulated and targeted soundbyte. I thought that too at first but not anymore. Because the one goal, the true goal, the real goal, is to Occupy EVERY CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION non-violently, not to negotiate or ask permission from our tormentors in their own Language Of Control.

[-] 1 points by EVmc (11) 3 years ago

yes the media and politicos have a hard time with the general assembly's participatory democracy that it takes too long. its not that it takes too long OWS happened because the politicos refuse to allow 99% of us in their process they ain't listening to us where is your leader so we can make a deal and be done with you they say take me to your chief so we can screw ya like they have been doing the main attack on OWS is aimed at the general assembly. the establishment does not want 99% of us to participate if you can’t pay a congressman or president to commit a crime you can’t participate. If you can’t pay the police to beat people you have no rights Heres a different angle its not a economic or political problem it’s a criminal problem Enforce the construction, enforce the laws we currently have and the banksers would all be in jail Federal law says the departments have to provide yearly audits they have broken the law Demand our money back billions have been stolen http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/74480 This here sounds like a demand to me http://occupywallst.org/forum/mr-auctioneer-new-yorkers-call-moratorium-foreclos/ Fire Eric Holder Geitner http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/

[-] 1 points by gluttonsbedamned (18) 3 years ago

Very well put, Thanks for laying it out!

[-] 1 points by ninet9percent (1) 3 years ago

The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures. -- Junius We should counter demand that eveyone who is paid by taxpayers and everyone that is law abiding, help us to find and prosecute law breaking politicians and their corporate whores.

[-] 1 points by 07chuck (3) 3 years ago

Having general demands is a good thing. It helps bring focus, and gives a central rally point. They have to be inclusive and broad. I personally think that the main focus/demand should be getting corporate/special interest/union money out of politics. I think a positive long term goal would be a Constitutional amendment that expressed that only people that are eligible to vote in a race can contribute money to the race and there should be a limit of something like 5% of average income.

[-] 1 points by ArsenicAlyss (1) from Oxnard, CA 3 years ago

Thank you for posting this. I have been a member of the working group on Yahoo for a few days and I got very nervous when they started talking about traditional fundraising and incorporating as a 501(c)3. I've left and I hope to join dialogue on this site instead! Solidarity from Los Angeles!

[-] 1 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

to me it seems more useful to create a bigger conversation about how financial elites have privatized our democracy, and a forum that can find ways to model the changes we need--free elections, a free-thinking citizen's congress that isn't muzzled, bribed or intimidated by lobbies, and state power that is benign.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

xavier, please start a forum on this site about that.

[-] 1 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

okay. how do you start up a forum topic?

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Just go to the top of this page and hit the forum button on the gray bar below the ows logo.

[-] 1 points by 07chuck (3) 3 years ago

Having general demands is a good thing. It helps bring focus, and gives a central rally point. They have to be inclusive and broad. I personally think that the main focus/demand should be getting corporate/special interest/union money out of politics. I think a positive long term goal would be a Constitutional amendment that expressed that only people that are eligible to vote in a race can contribute money to the race and there should be a limit of something like 5% of average income. That being said, I can only speak for myself, but a lot of people agree with me.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

I agree with you in general. It's not to say we should form a list of grievances and stick to them and only them, but we're kind of sitting on a fence. The "horizontality" ideal works once the field is cleared for democratic interaction, and there's something to be said for just going ahead and starting it - nothing says a way of life is possible like its being actual. But, on the other hand, we did come out because of serious grievances (I'm not, however, one of the people who sees a conflict between our anti-greed agenda and our pro-environment agenda; these are two of the most directly interconnected social problems we currently face). We came out because our actions are affected by the world at large, and if we don't start proposing some specific institutional change, then eventually that world is going to get us. The problem, of course, is how to frame those specifics. The trick is to get at the most basic institutional structures, and special-interest money is one of the most basic problems. It won't solve everything, but it's central.

Where I'm tempted to disagree with you is on the specific policy proposal. I do like the idea of forbidding people who aren't voting in a race from contributing money. I mean, that just makes sense and I really can't believe how much outside money is invested in local elections (I mean, really local - Salon just reported on how even school board election campaigns are funded by larger corporate interests - the school board!). I'm worried about the 5% rule; any rule based on percentage is going to be offset by the unequal distribution of incomes, more than a set number would. Ironically, it would work really well in areas where income is highly concentrated. But in regions where on the one hand income was dispersed within a large portion of the population and on the other there was a large underclass, it would be more problematic.

[-] 1 points by 07chuck (3) 3 years ago

Just to set a base for discussion I picked 5% of the national average income. About $3,000 a year, for the total, combined, in all races for that cycle. See now I'm starting to get to specifics, but you have to have a base from which to start.

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

If the problem is equal financial access to campaigns, that's still a pretty forbidding number - $3000 is a lot of money for people who have lower than average incomes (not to mention median income being a better measure of fairness).

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

if you'd listened to me and put up a wiki and sub forums, this could have been averted.

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

start it

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 3 years ago

oh, gooody.. today i think we can say i have. gotta find it first tho.

[-] 1 points by thinking7 (1) 3 years ago

I think one way to solve the problem of the WRONG set of demands, is to assert what has been done already. On Day 5 of the Occupation, there was a list of 11 "one demands". Then, that was refined by a list of 22 "grievances" (not demands) later on. If you could point to those more when people point to wrong stuff, I think the wrong stuff would be refuted more easily.

[-] 1 points by rachelayne (20) 3 years ago

I agree that the movement should have no demands, and continue with awareness and conversation. I also believe that those with ideas and specific lists should continue to voice their demands, while clearly stating who they are and how they differ from the root movement. Everyone with something to offer has a place in the conversation, but there is a clarity issue evolving for sure.

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[-] 1 points by Someone (23) 3 years ago

possibly but it may also come from not clearly understanding or at least stating that MOST of our complaints stem from a hideous economic and social policy called 'neoliberalism' -- so called 'supply side' or 'trickle down' economics. That is what let the genie out of the bottle for these corporations to run rampant. and PS it has occurred many times in industrialized nations, such rampant capitalism. it is usually reigned in by governments. but now governments have been supplanted by these huge corporate machines. whats so comical and revealing is that no one even questions this system anymore, it's so deeply embedded that it is perceived as normal. anything else is called 'communism'. okay, fine, so then if collective decision making such as a labor union or credit union is labeled 'communist'...aaagh, let them say what they want ;)

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

For the NYC GA - To take this to another level, please consider, it's about time to come out with something public and official. #1 demand, by consensus, take the vote - End political corruption through Campaign Finance Reform.

Occupychi has done this successfully already. Focus helps - to take this to the next level.

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

You need massive numbers to take this to the next level. Being inclusive enables that. Focus works against it.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

I have been supportive of the "no demands", no media, relying on eachother, since the beginning, for the sake of inclusion, like you say. But I think to get the massive numbers - we may need to consider a push to unify behind a #1 thing, in a more public and official way.

The question becomes: Do we stick with the "no demand" route to get massive numbers, or will the "demand" route bring more massive numbers?

I have seen and talked to many people that are turned off by many of the topics that are swirling around. I realize that it is important for everyone to have their voice and point of view. But at what price? If it is turning people off and turning people away - it could be counter productive. That is why I'm concerned.

I sure don't know the right answer myself! Which is why I think this is important to discuss.
Going for a #1 thing, we might lose some people, but we likely could gain many more.

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

I think the main demand is emerging naturally out of what binds the movement together and continue to encourage its growth.

[-] 1 points by MiMi1026 (937) from Springfield, VA 3 years ago

I thought there was a declaration and no need for demands?!

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 3 years ago

What are they demanding?

[-] 0 points by Bender (98) from Meriden, CT 3 years ago

they are demanding demands!

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 3 years ago

Is that a problem? lol

[-] 0 points by Bender (98) from Meriden, CT 3 years ago

haha. sorry. i was trying to be humorous as well

[-] 1 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 3 years ago

I demand that people stop demanding us to make demands.

[-] 1 points by riethc (1149) 3 years ago

That's quite a contradictory statement.

[-] 1 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 3 years ago

It was my attempt at humor :)

[-] 2 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

It succeeded. I lol'd.

[-] 1 points by Marlow (1141) 3 years ago

BRAVO #ows..... Bravo!

I have agreed with that from day one!

(Marlow)

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[-] 0 points by roloff (244) 3 years ago

I want Bill Gates to buy me a car, Warren Buffet to pay off my student loans, George Bush to pay my mortgage, and I want Cameron Diaz to buy me new shoes. I am sick of these evil rich people stealing their money from poor minority babies.

[-] 0 points by velveeta (230) 3 years ago

free art/posters for people to download and print for free to protest the 1%

http://www.gallerymjb.com

hope this helps

[-] 0 points by OWSSMH (0) 3 years ago

Someone who goes out and earns more money than you doesn't owe it to you or society. They were paid for their services based on the open market. If they are no longer worth what they are being paid the market will adjust accordingly. This works until the government interferes and bails out companies that were not doing good business. You should be mad at the government, not the rich. Make your own money, dont wish for someone else's. Someone making $10 million a year doesn't mean you can not get ahead. We see it all the time, someone comes up with a great idea, takes it to market, and becomes rich. There is enough money to go around but it should be earned and not given. Dont give up freedom for "equality". You have every chance in this county to have a great life, and if you don't its not because someone else is having an even better life, its because of the decisions you made. Our "poor" live better than 70% of the world, and regardless of what city you are in there is always somewhere to get food if you cant afford it. Go fight a real battle like real poverty in AFRICA.

[-] 0 points by happybanker (766) 3 years ago

Yes life in America is tough. We actually have to look real hard sometimes for a wifi hotspot to update our status on Facebook. Its just not fair.

[-] 0 points by witsendnj (1) 3 years ago

Since OWS is open to all of the 99%, no group or individual for that matter needs to be "empowered" by the NYCGA. The NYCGA has no authority to make or not make demands by other percentages of the 99%. The NYCGA cannot co-opt other groups, prevent them from making demands, petitions or declarations, and should be embracing their efforts instead of whining about being co-opted.

[-] 1 points by Ranger4564 (21) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Your right to pursue your freedom is not allowed to limit my options to pursue my freedom. You cannot make demands that affect me when I want no demands. You are completely Free to Speak FOR YOURSELF. When it comes to speaking for the general assembly, we do have to give / get approval of both message and messenger. Everyone is held to these requirements, not just the demands group.

[-] 0 points by bootsy3000 (180) 3 years ago

This is the heart of the matter. Say what you will about demands or Ge eral Assemblies, when you claim to be an organic movement affecting the vast majority of everyone, don't be surprised when an organic structure emerges. It's evolutionary, and inevitable that someone would start working on it.

[-] 0 points by TheKingofHearts (14) 3 years ago

It seems to me that most of the people on here have some sort of decent point, but my question is, how are we going to solve this problem by disempowering the 1%, who make the jobs and improve the economy, or by regulating them, in which case ether more jobs will be sent over seas or else they will simply raise the price of products to make up for their loses and WE will eventually pay for it. I would instead propose that we take away their real power, which lies in outsourcing work to countries where it can be done cheaper, the copy rights they hold, and there ability to cope with regulations or avoid them through legal means, and the land they own, and financial power over elections. We could possibly work towards this by:

  1. Reimposing tariffs on incoming goods in the way originally set up by our forefathers and initially intended to be the only source of government income. The purpose of which would be to raise the price of foreign goods to the price of the cheapest comparable American good, and revers the flow of money so that foreign countries are paying us instead of us paying them, as well as creating MILLIONS of jobs

  2. Limiting copy rights so that they last a MAXIMUM of 5 years and are nonrenewable. The supreme court stated that copyrights were created for the purpose of inspiring creativity. 10s of millions of dollars should be more then enough for that. At the moment, you can NOT walk into a store, see something thats interesting, go home, build it, sell it and make a living off it. Imagine what Microsoft would have been like if after 5 years, any person or company who wanted to, could have started developing off the base system, we would have thousands of jobs and several incredible op systems instead of one guy with a copy right monopoly and 10s of billions of dollars. (for any one who thinks this can't work, China operates with NO copyrights at all)

  3. Largely deregulating companies who's top beneficiary is making under 1 million dollars a year would be incredibly helpful. I know a lot of people would not like this and I understand, they have a right to be upset. But the top 1% are making FAR more then this and the regulations we impose on THEM are also imposed on small businesses often making it impossible for them to succeed, where for large ones its ether easy or they have the legal power to ovoid it. I have a friend who runs a landscaping business and he's his only employee. He's not allowed to mow to large a FIELD of grass without getting a more expensive permit then he already has, which is easy for large businesses, while he has a family of 5, a home lone, and is making under $40,000 a year. You should not have to pay so that you can make money.

  4. Opening up land reserves and selling to consumers or especially small companies with development potential. Again I understand opposition to this step, especially from environmentalists, but I don't think people realise just how much land there is. It would take weeks if not months for the best of us to cross just the continental part of our country on foot, and almost all of the country (especially the west) is just open land. When the frontier was closed it destroyed thousands of jobs hit the economy worse. How many of you live in a town that was founded in the las 20 years, 50 years, 100 years? We are not growing any more and need to make wise and reasonable use of our resources. Almost all of which are open are currently controlled by the 1%.

  5. Companies (other inherently political organizations) should not be allowed to donate to candidates at all, considering they cannot possibly represent the views of every person in their company, and personal donations should be limited to 1 million dollars. You can run an entire campaign traveling all over the country on a million dollars. In fact you can live your whole life without working a day quit comfortably on a million dollars. There is no reason any one person should need to donate more then that, elections should be about people not money.

I'm not sher if all or any of this would work, I'm not a politician and I'm not a rich man, in fact I have only a few hundred dollars in everything I own, but I hope this is useful to some one. I would suggest that these things be "carried out" rather then "demanded".

[-] 1 points by bootsy3000 (180) 3 years ago

For me, it's the 28th Amendment. Decouple politics and money, immediately. http://www.wolf-pac.com/28th

[-] 0 points by bobbym54 (5) 3 years ago

I truly believe that getting the big money out of our elections will bring about the changes we all hope for this country. Ending the cash flow from special interests into the campaign warchest will give us elected officials that pass legislation which benefits our country and the general population. If we ever hope to see a better future for the 99%, we need a thorough reform of how we finance our elections. It doesn't look as appealing on a poster as words like: " Make the 1% Pay!! " but it is the most effective action that can be taken to get the result we all desire.

[-] 0 points by bobbym54 (5) 3 years ago

I truly believe that getting the big money out of our elections will bring about the changes we all hope for this country. Ending the cash flow from special interests into the campaign warchest will give us elected officials that pass legislation which benefits our country and the general population. If we ever hope to see a better future for the 99%, we need a thorough reform of how we finance our elections. It doesn't look as appealing on a poster as words like: " Make the 1% Pay!! " but it is the most effective action that can be taken to get the result we all desire.

[-] 0 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

"We are our demands."

Well said well said.

[-] 0 points by ny2cnz (1) 3 years ago

I think the demands were pretty well laid out in the first collective reading of OWS. We want ALL of these things changed! "As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies. As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known. They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices. They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. They have sold our privacy as a commodity. They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them. They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit. They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.* To the people of the world, We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power. Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone. To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy"

[-] 1 points by entarage (36) from New York, NY 3 years ago

hey ny2, thanks for your input. as you have explained, there are sooo many issues that need to be addressed. on any given day we are seeing/hearing people protest the issue that matters to them most, whether it's the environment, job cuts, the federal reserve, stop and frisk, healthcare, the list goes on....but at the core of all this is an opportunity for a whole new paradigm. i see this movement as a model for what our society could be. we are living in example. it is a very evolved concept, and it's easy for us to be misunderstood if people in middle-america are getting their news from mainstream media. the way ows is being framed is not what it is. people don't "get" 'we are our demands'. that is a pretty sophisticated statement, that unfortunately the main stream just isn't going to get. but i bet if they came down to the park and hung out for a few hours talking to people, and seeing the compassion and hard work that we are doing, they just might "get it". we are a community of highly evolved people, because we believe in compassion and love and honor. Most people i know (and I" m a leftist musician who knows all kinds) are also left-winged people but they are so "busy" in their own drama that they just get whatever info they can read in the voice or the daily show. they KNOW the shit is fucked up, but they are comfortable, they have decent jobs and they are so wrapped up in themselves. as long as OTHER people are willing to fight the fight, why should they come out of the house on a rainy, cold day to listen to the people? My personal biggest beef is the people like you and me who COULD be down there fighting the fight, but they don't see how it effects them as long as they have a job and roof over their head. I have friends that i've hung out with for years who simply can not get off their ass to even SEE what's going on down there. NYC is the most individualistic city in the world. we have very little sense of community and if get screwed, lose your job, get hit by a bus, get robbed or lose your home, nobody is going to stand up and help eachother because they are just too fucking busy.
I want to, and am, living by example. I have a chronic pain syndrome and I'm on IV antibiotics daily and I STILL come out to the marches if I'm not completely wiped out. It's a sacrifice we ALL are making, and in NYC, no one sacrifices for anybody. the irony is that we are building a new paradigm for hour future and so we are really sacrificing for ourselves, our children, and our children's children. And I know that the mainstream media spins this whole thing like we have no idea what we are doing,etc...they say we should all get jobs. 1)DUH! there AREno jobs. 2)we are creating a place where we want justice for these corporate greedy fucks who screwed millions out of their own money 3) we are showing the world that you can live in a transparent world, and we have that right. 4)we are leading by example. this is the main point. we want all Americans to have what we have, the guts to expose the greed by the corporate elite who spend much of their time manipulating the public with their bullshite, they are intimidating, and there are so many people who do NOT have a clue where they stand because they live in their little bubbles and order take out every night and have a tempurpedic mattress to jump into at the end of a long day. they have NO idea of the big picture we are trying to expose. Demands? we got some, but the point that they can not deal with is that we aren't making this about any one issue. It's a state of mind where we have true democracy, and it starts with Compassion.

[-] 1 points by caruha (2) 3 years ago

Thanks for the above post, ny2cnz . . . great powerful statement which I think gives focus to this discussion. I think people interested in the goals of OWS ought to heed the section of the statement that says, "We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge your to assert your power . . . " Who's stopping any of you/us from creating tens/hundreds/thousands of General Assemblies in tens/hundreds/thousands of towns and cities across the U.S. and Earth? If you really want to chime in about the finer points of the NYC General Assembly's statements, then go there and participate. If you, like me and most people I know, are nauseated by the thought of another presidential election cycle in which so much energy will be wasted and none of our crises will be addressed, get off your ass and join the nearest Occupy group . . . or form one. OWS has done its job by sparking off this thing. Anyone who shares their goals should be fanning the sparks into flames, making the politicians and the purse holders lose sleep at night. It dilutes this movement's energy to give OWS shit about what you wish they would do or not do. I demand that we: 1.thank OWS for creating this window of opportunity; 2.keep our eyes on the prize, which I'd say is a functioning democracy and an unfucked world; 3. make it happen.

[-] 1 points by caruha (2) 3 years ago

You are awesome!

[-] 0 points by ny2cnz (1) 3 years ago

I think the demands were pretty well laid out in the first collective reading of OWS. We want ALL of these things changed! "As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies. As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known. They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage. They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses. They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one’s skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation. They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization. They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices. They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions. They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right. They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers’ healthcare and pay. They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility. They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance. They have sold our privacy as a commodity. They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press. They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit. They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce. They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them. They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil. They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people’s lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit. They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit. They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media. They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt. They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad. They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas. They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.* To the people of the world, We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power. Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone. To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy"

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Please re-post all over this page and the forums and if you can, see if it can be posted boldly on the main page daily so newbies and the confused can see it! Re-post, re-post, re-post!

[-] 1 points by FedBuster (6) from New York, NY 3 years ago

We need to boil all this down into what we as a movement have in common.

Remember the WTO protests in Seattle? The entire protest was discredited when the cameras centered on a small group of Wiccan whose points of view went from reasonable to the very bizarre.

The mainstream media focused on these fringe elements so effectively that people seeing that from their couches mostly concluded that the protestors were a bunch of 'whack jobs' and the national attention moved on. But the vast majority were working class Americans who were fed-up (so to speak) with the Plutocracy.

We need to be very careful to be concise about what unifies us, not try to hit every end of the spectrum--because that will divide us into smaller %s that are easy to rip apart and write off as fringe.

[-] 0 points by OWSNewPartyTakeNY2012 (195) 3 years ago

What Demands Have they Made?

[-] 0 points by tiappa (0) from Setubal, Setubal 3 years ago

stay strong people!!! you are the "sierra maestra" of this whole revolution and the whole world is watching and responding. It is catching on here in Europe like wildfire!!!!! Thank you for setting the example

[-] 0 points by andreadealmagro (4) 3 years ago

I read numerous comment here, most very intelligent, so I would like to add this: It is concrete demands, perhaps one or two "umbrella" demands which lay the connection of a group of militants (and I think that is what OWS is at this moment) with the majority of what you call 99%.

Umbrella demands are those that are desirable to a majority.

Abstractions like "end the status quo" do not resonate very well with most people. What is the status quo in the first place? - they may ask. The government? running subways? the IMF?

Just as a historic note: Anarchism was only able to form a sizable political party in Spain, prior to the Spanish Civil War. That is why the Libertarians here, who profess a form of Anarchism - no government - do not have much following. Anarchism ( and Libertarians to a degree) decry central authority. Most people feel better with some central authority.

One thing that is important when defining an umbrella demand is whether the demand deals with a cause or an effect. As example we could say that banks have taken advantage of homeowners (secondary effect) because of lax regulation (primary effect) and the regulations are lax because congress has made them so (cause). We could even go further and say that the latter cause is not really such, but that the real cause is the way elections are funded.

OWS has succeeded at stage 1 of a movement: It has a militant core, a financial support, and media recognition. To move on to stage 2, OWS must connect more with the main stream public: I think some concrete goal (umbrella demand) has a role to play there. Good luck, Andrea Dealmagro http://newjersey2013.wordpress.com/

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

Good points.

[-] 0 points by boatdrinx (0) from Northport, NY 3 years ago

All this back and forth about demands is ridiculous. We need cohesive, identifiable goals. We want to rest control back from the 1%. How about making a statement that says as much; ie: eliminate the electoral college and make our country a true democracy with direct elections, immediate legal action by the USAG holding the banksters accountable for their theft of our democracy, immediate legal action by the USAG holding the gestapo responsible for their failure to protect and serve the 99%, how about holding POTUS accountable and demanding an immediate move to socialized (yeah I said it) medicine, immediate dismantling of the IRS and a move to flat taxation. Without a specific list of identifiable demands all we're doing is making noise. Let's make a difference instead.

[-] 0 points by RSN (0) 3 years ago

Is this the same group trying to push for a convention on July 4th.

[-] 0 points by RevolutionaryTruth (95) from Houston, TX 3 years ago
[-] 0 points by starsprinkler (0) 3 years ago

END THE FED: nationalise Federal Reserve and issue our own currency, instead of creating money as DEBT from the privately owned Fed against interest. That's no 1 and what it's all about. Exactly how that should be done needs to be discussed.

Until that has happened, there's a short term need to reintroduce the GLASS-STEAGALL banking act to separate the speculation from the real economy. No more "too big to fail", no more hyper-inflationary bailouts. And the criminal banksters should be taken to trial.

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[-] -1 points by FedBuster (6) from New York, NY 3 years ago

AGREED. End the Fed. Then really reform campaign finance. These are unifying goals (demands come later).

Our unifying goals can't have any grey areas, the other ones can be a caleidoscope of the varied crowd that makes the 99%.

Lets leave out divisive political positions that will tear the 99% into two 45% groups. Forget Left vs Right. Go for the jugular and end the Fed.

[-] 2 points by debndan (1145) 3 years ago

Not just end fed, prosecute bankers that sold bonds they reasonably knew would go bust. That used to be called fraud, these folks broke the law, it's time to hold people criminally responsible for the greatest fraud in History.

And prosecute any people from corps that were criminally involved.

And prosecute those politicians guilty of graft.

Now that would be the proverbial jugular

[-] 0 points by sandlewould (1) from Maysville, KY 3 years ago

I propose we stage a mass March from all over the country converging on the capital, demanding immediate expedition of an amendment to the constitution reinstating at the federal level an old Wisconsin law which states:

"No corporation [period!] doing business in this state shall pay or contribute, or offer consent or agree to pay or contribute, directly or indirectly, any money, property, free service of its officers or employees or thing of value to any political party, organization, committee or individual for any political purpose whatsoever, or for the purpose of influencing legislation of any kind, or to promote or defeat the candidacy of any person for nomination, appointment or election to any political office. "

This should be our only focus. Once we can get properly motivated elected officials, THEN we can begin to effect any change We the People want...such as repeal of Citizens United.

[-] 1 points by OWSuMakeMeLaugh (-4) 3 years ago

You're right...OWS should run the country, right?

Please, the US would crumble in 2 months. Get a life and get a job.

[-] 0 points by atodz (0) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

you really want to leave campaign finance reform up to Congress?? does anyone else see the irony in this?!?!?!?! Congress-->bought politicians

[-] 3 points by frangible (67) from Albuquerque, NM 3 years ago

It's been done. An all-male Congress and all-male state legislatures voted to give women the right to vote. At around the same time that happened, those same politicians were intimidated into voting in Prohibition. Then thirteen years later, despite many politicians being under the thumb of prohibitionist organizations, they ended Prohibition. A lily-white Congress passed civil rights legislation in the 1960s. It turns out that popular pressure can trump machine politics and money, if there's enough pressure.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

There is support in Congress for this. I don't know if this has all the right detail, but there is support.

http://fairelectionsnow.org/about-bill

If they know that there is a populist movement pushing for this - but how could they? We have no demands or solutions?

[-] 2 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

thanks, april, for posting this link. i think it's systemically impossible for congress to create truly fair and free elections. but a movement could come up with and model solutions . . .

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

Yea and they're too willfully ignorant to be able to see it for themselves, even with it right under their noses. A big part of the problem, they are no longer "of" the people nor "for" the people.

[-] 3 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

It is right under their nose! They just don't know it. But neither did the 99% for the past 30 odd years! Below, xavier made a good comment that they would chase our parade.

[-] 3 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

agreed. the incentives for most all incumbents to rationalize, justify, excuse, deny the problem seem to be too great, even though they complain so much about having to start fundraising again the day after they get elected. but if a popular movement could come up with a model for free elections so the 99 could see how it might actually work, i bet all those incumbents would come chasing after the parade.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

Yes, thats what I'm thinking too! If "they" knew the direction of this protest - equal representation! If this was a more public and official demand, they would all chase OUR parade., If for no other reason, than their own self interest. It would increase our numbers and the politicians would have to vote for the 99%. Or the 99% will vote against them.

[-] 1 points by xavier (28) 3 years ago

how do you think elections should be done? if they were actually forums on how to solve problems? just as a voter, how would you want them to be?

[-] 1 points by Dubby (146) 3 years ago

I would enact instant runoff voting and lose the electoral college.

I'd also reform the congressional district definition process to address gerrymandering.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 3 years ago

I don't think I would change the voting system. Just get them money out would be enough to get meaningful change.

[-] 1 points by severansus (4) 3 years ago

Yes, well said, this is important!

[-] 0 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

The reason people keep asking this and the reason people keep saying things like, "They need to be in Washington," is to divert the message which to me is simple equality and justice or if you like, battling inequality and injustice wherever it lies. Don't fall for the tactic but keep up mass pressure so you don't lose your influence. Some people vote, some don't but the thing here is people are creating issues during an election year. This is the only real way that change will happen.

[-] 0 points by moman36 (0) from Dagsboro, DE 3 years ago

I think the most of those in this movement want to change something. At some point (now may not be the best ) our outrage will have to translate into some form of action to bring about that change. I can't see how WE (whatever that means) being the demand will get us there.

[-] 1 points by teddy (6) from Bedford, VA 3 years ago

Hey thanks. But I'm still confused. Are explaining-the-movement-to-others-v2/ the demands that the Demands Working Group is referring to? If so, who in the media are they being are they relayed to?

[-] 0 points by marcxstar (167) from Los Angeles, CA 3 years ago

The summation I provide in the links above is in no way connected to any group.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by ARealNewYorker (227) from Brooklyn, NY 3 years ago

The problem with this isn't that, if it's done, it wouldn't work - it would work if everyone would stick to it. The problem is the "guy with a gun in a crowd" problem. The banks, etc. will start foreclosing; they can't get everyone, but they can start getting someone, and everyone's worried it will be them. Any firm knows that a great number of people are going to cave just based on the possibility. I wouldn't blame them for doing it, either - it's the unfortunate effect of being had by the balls.

[-] 1 points by Jaxter (4) 3 years ago

That's the problem, my friend. We've devolved into a nation of sheeple and they count on the fear they instill. I would offer that when the cash flow ceases massive layoffs would ensue and there ould be no-one to initiate foreclosures. This may sound cruel to add to the unemployed but I really doubt it would come to that as it would only take ninety-days to cause the banks to implode. They might start the foreclosure process but they couldn't complete it in that window.

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by rachelayne (20) 3 years ago

the NY Post is owned by Rupert Murdoch. It is not a news organization, it's his personal mouthpiece to promote his own agenda, but I bet you know that already. If the 1% wasn't frightened by the movement, then why do they plant these foolish comments, and try to undermine it with lies??

[-] 1 points by Someone (23) 3 years ago

consider the source

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by jesus2012 (3) 3 years ago

great, you already have your demands - guess nothing gets done...

no occupy the FDA - latest propaganda - obviously if big pharma wasn't dealing with overwhelming numbers of people not trusting them and refusing to be killed with drugs, chemo and radiation then there would be no need for this type of propaganda - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/21/technology/book-offers-new-details-of-jobs-cancer-fight.html?hp

just more evidence of corruption and why we need to OCCUPY THE FDA!!!

no? oh, ok, I see, your only demand is to smell your own farts, great movement - useless Americans, no jobs, no clue, nothing....

[-] -1 points by figero (661) 3 years ago

yada yada yada - then dont be poor. Plenty of people have pulled themselves out of poverty. Stop the whining and look for a job waiting tables. that's a good start. .

[-] 1 points by Banjarama (242) from Little Elm, TX 3 years ago

You are a mis-informed drone. And a troll

[-] -1 points by SickOfLibs (-1) 3 years ago

Did you all fall and bump your heads as small children? Did any of you pass 8th grade economics? Has anyone bothered to do the math required to satisfy your proposed demands? Go knit a hemp scarf, hug a tree, kiss a pig...leave the free thinking to those more intellectually suited to do so. Give deodorant a chance, and lay off the crack. Here's an idea...go to WORK! Go be useful somewhere else.

[-] -1 points by tysonbowersiii (-1) from Brockton, MA 3 years ago
[-] -1 points by scottbaker (-1) 3 years ago

Gee, I really wasted my time submitting new proposals and goals to the American People's Charter then, no? I won't make that mistake again. Too bad too, because my top 4 proposals could have generated 10s of trillions (yes, with a 'T') and no one else was considering them.

[-] 2 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 3 years ago

Not necessarily. It just means that we will implement them ourselves, when we peacefully gain enough power.

[-] -1 points by IndyGuy (81) 3 years ago

You might want to tell the General Assembly that OWS is basically becoming a wing of the Labor Union movement....

Washington Post ...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/occupy-wall-street-and-labor-movement-forming-uneasy-alliance/2011/10/19/gIQAkxo80L_story.html

*"The Occupy Wall Street protests that began as a nebulous mix of social and economic grievances are becoming more politically organized — with help from some of the country’s largest labor unions.

Labor groups are mobilizing to provide office space, meeting rooms, photocopying services, legal help, food and other necessities to the protesters. The support is lending some institutional heft to a movement that has prided itself on its freewheeling, non- institutional character.

And in return, Occupy activists are pitching in to help unions ratchet up action against several New York firms involved in labor disputes with workers."*

[-] 3 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

nothing that you have said backs your statement that the ows is a wing of the labor movement. it does show that the labor movement is getting what it can out of ows. but that is natural since the workers are all 99%ers. No one in the 1% works.

[-] 2 points by nucleus (3291) 3 years ago

Buying into corporate media spin? Think about it.

[-] 2 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Labor stands strongly in solidarity with this movement. Perhaps it's the other way around.

[-] -1 points by CitizensStudentsUnionsActivism (-3) 3 years ago

What are you if you have no demands? Demands CAN end the status quo. The General Assembly is just another big vacillating committee with big money backers trying to steer this movement to no where. The demands are as follows:

  1. Nationalizing the Federal Reserve Bank
  2. 1% tax on Wall Street speculation (Tobin Tax)
  3. Student Loan Amnesty
  4. No Fraud Closures (and Robo Judges) for the duration of the economic depression brought on by Wall Street.
  5. End the undeclared wars
  6. No to the status quo (Obama, Romney, Perry, Cain)
  7. Elect a President Funded by The People and ONLY by the People (no special interest groups)

A lack of demands shows a lack of awareness to the issues that brought us this economic crisis.

Otherwise I suggest the unions break away and form splinter groups like Occupy The Fed and others to address the real issues. take this movement for all it's worth. It doesn't belong to Soros and Koch Bros. and big money foundations anymore! I will def leave for the DEMANDS GROUP ASAP!

[-] 4 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 3 years ago

What are you if you have no demands?

The revolution.

Having demands of the 1% recognizes their authority and justifies their tyranny.

[-] 4 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

Yup.

[-] 2 points by TheMismatch (50) from Lafayette, IN 3 years ago

But they do have authority. It might not be justly-derived power, but they do have it. The fact that they can get away with multinational theft of billions, the cheating of millions of people, and never see the inside of a jail cell shows just how much power they have over the system. It is thusly the system that we must go about changing to prevent these sorts of abuses of power from happening in the future, but in order to do that, we have to have a coherent idea on what exactly to change.

Think of the message it sends if we hit Month 2, or 3, or 4 and Occupy is still just a vent for people. If we haven't shown the world that we can do more than just complain, or more than just draw attention to injustice, than we will be painted (perhaps rightfully so) as a collective that enjoys complaining but doesn't have the stomach for the actual undertaking of reform.

We must actively define ourselves, or through inaction we will do so passively.

[-] 1 points by asimons (3) 3 years ago

Exactly. Without demands, the OWS movement will die. There is a list of 20 demands that is circulating as the 99% Declaration of Independence and it is great starting point covering every grievance of the 99% and we won't give up until these demands are met. check it out

[-] 1 points by rohjo (92) 3 years ago

I completely follow your points, but the rulers' authority is illegitimate and will never respond to specifics that can be argued and co-opted. Their powers of manipulation and hypnosis are manifest. But keep shining the light for all to see and join, and these false rulers' nerves will rattle, and guilty dogs will start barking. It's already happening.

I know they're wrong. You know they're wrong. Everyone knows they're wrong. Let everyone--from the right, left or otherwise--join in just this much, and a powerful force will be released that will define itself as needed.

[-] 1 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 3 years ago

Perhaps I could have better phrased it as "their 'right' to have their authority". Denouncing their authority is the first step to fighting it. I had no intention of saying that we ignore it.

[-] 1 points by TheMismatch (50) from Lafayette, IN 3 years ago

Perhaps. But the message is still basically the same, and it's being echoed across Occupy: "We will not make demands". If we don't have something to replace the status quo with, we're the same as the Republicans when they act as the "Party of No".

[-] 1 points by Hellomynameis (243) from Aptos, CA 3 years ago

"we're the same as the Republicans when they act as the "Party of No"."

Except they were the "party of no" to democrats... not specific ideas.

[-] 2 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

A lack of awareness? The issues are being raised by people all over the place, just as you have done here.

Although you have put out a lot of FUD so your words mean little. Big money backers in a general assembly? Right. Thats absurd.

[-] 1 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

There is no lack of awareness. The oligarchy knows what we want. We must continue to push. The oligarchy wants this in a tidy box they can control, or dont you see the subtle repression?

[-] 1 points by brightonsage (4494) 3 years ago

This has been explained many times by many people on these pages. You are free to continue to argue for concrete demands and misrepresent those of us who see wisdom in another approach. If your demands are met, you can then go silent and live your life along side of those who are still dissatisfied by the changes you find acceptable. I wouldn't expect you to do otherwise because you don't (can't or won't) accept another approach.

Thanks for helping get some of the changes we need. Say Hi to the Group.

[-] 1 points by groobiecat2 (746) from Brattleboro, VT 3 years ago

"A lack of demands shows a lack of awareness to the issues that brought us this economic crisis."

Understand the process. Stop trying to be rogue/troll* or whatever you are. Calm down. Drink some decaf. Understand the rules.

  • Oh wait, your comment about "big money backers" tells the story. You're a troll. My bad.

Go away.

[-] 1 points by joltwagon (1) 3 years ago

Why even have a General Assembly with implicit authority if there are no demands at all? The demands should be game-changers which restore power to the people and ignite true democracy. To the list of 7 above, I would add 3 more, making a core of 10.

  1. A real 9/11 investigation with full subpoena power.
  2. Repeal of the Patriot Act and DHS.
  3. Ending corporate person-hood.

Obviously to take back the country we need public funding of elections, ending the Fed, and the truth about 9/11. These things are essential!

[-] 1 points by Flsupport (578) 3 years ago

I bet you and I agree on alot but my opinion is that we should not concentrate so much on a specifc set of proposals because that will have the effect of pidgeonholing the movement.

There is awareness and specificity is unnecessary. BTW, I would love to discuss taxation because as great as the Tobin tax seems to be, I question whether that would be passed on to consumers and therefore be ineffective. A millionares tax and an increase in capital gains along with increased recognition of the right to organize seem like better playing field levelers to me.

[-] -1 points by Bernie (117) 3 years ago

Go talk to this group see if we can combine forces, we do not need turf battles. Is this the group you are talking about? If it is they have a lot of good ideas. https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

[-] 2 points by jart (1145) from New York, NY 3 years ago

This is a separate group and the same concept applies to them as well.

[-] 1 points by acarefreeman (27) 3 years ago

Yes, communication seems to be the only choice, and the best choice of course, since that's how we grow and become strong. With a grassroot movement like OWS, we cannot expect everyone or every group to think or act in the same way, what we can do, though, is to coordinate with each other, either with individual or with groups, and to form a growing unifying front until we are so strong that nobody can ignore us. So, at this stage of the movement, we have to tolerate each other's differences while reaching out and seeking the commonest ground. So, reach out to this group to have a conversation, please. ~acarefreeman

[-] 1 points by anonrez (237) 3 years ago

I don't think this is about 'turf' as much as it's about the nature of the movement itself - OWS is as the post says open source, consensus based, and fundamentally open-ended.

It's disingenuous, to say the least, for this group to attempt to speak on behalf of such a movement when their own organizational structure and motives are so different.

[-] 1 points by acarefreeman (27) 3 years ago

I think the best strategy in this case would be, while making it clear that this group does not represent the OWS's General Assembly, it is also important to reach out to have an effective conversation with them, as we would to any other group who think and act like us. ~acarefreeman

[-] -2 points by CitizensStudentsUnionsActivism (-3) 3 years ago

Feel free to tack your sincere demands on. If you're tired of the status quo being perpetuated by the General Assembly ring leaders and want a voice just list your demands:

[-] 1 points by aaronparr (597) 3 years ago

There is nothing wrong with that. Thats the beauty of anarchy.