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Forum Post: OWS makes me sad... :(

Posted 2 years ago on Nov. 29, 2011, 9:22 a.m. EST by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I went to Occupy Dallas, expecting to meet the tip of the sword of democratic activism, progressive DOERS ready and able to adopt better ways to lead us all to better days...

Instead, I was met with disillusioned revolutionaries who lack the tools to affect real political change.

I am SURE you know what I am talking about, given about half the messages on this board are saying the same thing. With each message I read, with every e-mail I send that gets no response, and when I present Motions (http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-motion-i-seek-a-2nd/), that get zero traction...I lose a little heart, become more hopeless, and grow more sad...

I've begun to wonder if it is worth it, and how much longer I can hold onto something that doesn't exist- the 'idea' that this movement CAN cause real political change. I only seek better days, through the implementation of better ways, but I am slowly reaching the conclusion that this movement isn't capable of any such thing.

We have an AWESOME opportunity, and OWS is pissing it away with leaderless, messageless, inaction...

On a scale of 1-10, how DISAPPOINTED are 'you' in OWS???

*I am at 8, now.

679 Comments

679 Comments


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[-] 11 points by fgdesign (52) 2 years ago

Personally I don't see the issue... since we are supposedly leaderless ANY OF YOU can emerge as a/the leader for the next wave.

As far as being messageless that can also be remedied quickly. Here's my attempt:

"OWS seeks to limit the power and influence of Wall Street and large corporations over government and decrease income inequality to prevent another financial collapse and promote a sustainable economy"

If this was my best attempt at a slogan I could publish it (on a blog, etc.) and say it represents OWS. If the idea was "sticky" enough others will follow... that is the difference between leadership (making a decision and going with it) and the type of concensus we have relied upon so far.

Let's be creative and stop looking for everyone's approval. I'm fine pissing off a few folks if we come out of this without losing the opportunity we have to affect real change.

[-] 8 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+20 for: "OWS seeks to limit the power and influence of Wall Street and large corporations over government and decrease income inequality to prevent another financial collapse and promote a sustainable economy"

Now imagine how effective that message would be if 6 different people were on all the talkhead shows, relaying that message in a clear concise manner???

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Do it then. Call up a show.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

A show?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Yeah, you mentioned the talking head show, call them up and get on their show and give the message in a clear and concise manner.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

You get cut off, just as soon as you start making a good point.

I am an old hand at talk radio, and have been black-listed from several shows.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

Good work.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

F-Sean Hannity, but I am not mentioning any names, "Glenn Beck".

[-] 1 points by madcat (47) 2 years ago

That's a nice "mission statement" and it is something the 1% will understand and hopefully respect, at least.

[-] 2 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Agreed.

[-] 1 points by 0Concernedcitizen0 (1) 2 years ago

The 1% will not respect the mission statement. It takes the power away from them; they will never respect this movement. Now imagine one collective voice that could carry a message to the masses and make them understand the injustices that are being done. Then the 1% will respect this movement and its mission statement because you will wake up the rest of the 99%.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Do you think this movement is growing, dying, or is in some sort of stasis?

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 2 years ago

There does seem to be a withdrawal of people from the movement now, but the economic situation can only get worse until fundamental changes are made. As things get worse, people will have no choice but to become more active.

If we run out of food, for example, won't we have to have food strikes? And as the strikes get bigger, won't they have to repress us more? Won't our world turn into the worst kind of hell if we allow it too?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Milk is set to hit $7 a gallon, but do you honestly believe that will have any effect on your numbers?

I think the BEST this movement has done is help with disaster relief. Providing direct assistance to those in need.

The purity of it is truly inspiring.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

At this point, I don't know if it will increase the numbers of OWS, but I think it would motivate people to protest in some way.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I think the BEST thing OWS can do is continue to offer aid to those in distress...

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

I think that is always a good thing to do. But if we don't solve the financial crisis, pretty soon, we will all be in distress...

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

There really is little 'we' can do to solve our financial crisis. That is up to Congress

And we won't get a chance to re-elect a new set of those for a couple of years.

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

As a supporter of a political organization, I make donations to financially support activists who are busily lobbying those congressmen, educating them about Glass Steagall and financial reform.

As the crisis gets worse and worse, more and more pressure on those congressmen will inevitably be exerted by their constituencies. This is what will provide "us" with the greatest opportunity for making a significant change.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

In that case, thank you for your support. It is greatly appreciated. I am a student so extra money is not something I have to give. That said, I am a lobbyist myself, of sorts. :)

Moreover, I don't think there IS a "crisis"... It is imagined, utterly made up, in an attempt to cause uncertainty. They've come to a deal, that everyone KNEW they would, anyway.

What COULD make things truly worse, is if the climate truly changed drastically...causing global crop failure...THAT would suck, and be a true crisis. When that happens, no amount of political donations are gonna make things great...

[-] 1 points by arturo (3169) from Shanghai, Shanghai 1 year ago

No problem, happy to be supportive.

However, when I speak of a crisis, I'm not just talking about the momentary "fiscal cliff" we are facing, but the over all crisis of the economy, and the decline of civilization as a whole.

Considering that you are a student, and therefore still quite young, I suppose that you don't believe we are in a crisis because you have never experienced life in America in better times. Or perhaps because the crisis hasn't effected you directly yet.

I believe there is a crisis, and that if it is not stopped, it will, of course, continue getting worse, effecting more and more people. How bad can it get? As bad as we allow it. The last time we had a crisis of this magnitude was the great depression, which resulted in WWII.

The current crisis, could lead to a nuclear WWIII, which would set humanity back to the dark ages, or worse. If you don't think there is such a threat, just go to google, and look up "WW3" and "Russia" or "China", and you'll see that the top leaders in these countries have warned that the continued expansion of warfare in the middle east will eventually lead to a confrontation between the nuclear powers.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I am 37...I was a vinter- meaning that I grow grapes and make wine, for about a decade. Recently a prosecutor threatened to charge me with practicing law sans a license, so I decided to go back to college and get my law degree.

I think the biggest crisis we could face was that Mayan doomsday thing. I think the days of violence and uncertainty is something that can be overcome...global climate change, and coastal flooding, not so much...

All that said, I think we need to make massive changes to what and how we do things...I spend much time working toward those ends through many venues. My efforts through OWS have been..."disappointing". This could be so much more...

[-] 1 points by grapes (3256) 1 year ago

When the "extraordinary measures" of the U.S. Treasury run to the end of the rope in approximately eight weeks, we will get a crisis. Politicians have been kicking the can down the road and not making the tough choices to avoid the rendezvous with catastrophe.

I expect the spending-cut-hawks will make a stance then to roil the world by blocking the raising of the U.S. debt ceiling.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

The farm bill has been settled so milk is not goin up.

We knew that would happen though.

What about the medical debt abolishing? Isn't that good.

And the support for strikers? fast food, walmart, verizon, chrysties, coned, port workers. And others. That's great success. no?

How about changing the national dialogue & direction?

Aren't these things good.?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Who is your inside track on the milk bill? I hadn't heard anything yet?

It has been a long road, and there have been both successes and failures.

But what OWS has not down is gotten sympathetic congressmen elected...

One thing I will say is that the disaster relief efforts are AWESOME.

The purity of the aid provided is truly inspiring.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

My congresswomen is a vocal supporter of OWS andthe agenda we believe in. What about Elizabeth Warren, Grayson in Fla, Actually there are many pols who claim support for the 99% now.

Occupy has created this terminology and allowed progressives to find the courage to challenge the right wing extremists.

And as a result the right wing extremist tea party has been hurt and is in chaos.

Farm bill news came from cablenews, they would never let that lapse.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

So, why shouldn't I be disappointed that my Motion failed to see passage, anywhere???

Don't you think that if we DID employ it, that it would be beneficial???

What is wrong with making the world a better place, protecting protesters, and being HEARD!?!?!?

What's "wrong" with those ideas???

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Nothing wrong with those goals.

Of course I submit that we ARE beginning to make the world a better place, we ARE attempting to protect protesters, and we ARE being heard.

I suppose you believe your Motion does these things. I think that is the intent of your motion, but nothing in it guarantees these things.

Just another approach. I think though that expending energy to police conformity is counter productive. We are focused on one issue when we choose to but always allow many expressions.

So you can be disappointed regarding the inaction on your excellent motion, but I think it is not fair to grade OWS on only the result of YOUR motion.

That's all.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

We'll likely never know that the Motion could have achieved, because like so many other good ideas it sits idle...

I'm disappointed that you tried to make this about "me". The Motion I presented isn't 'mine'...it may have had its genesis in me, but others have amended it and indeed changed it.

It is a good idea, made better by others, and then utterly ignored by OWS.

THAT is all.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You may believe it, but because of the unfair, self centered grade of C- you give OWS based solely on the inaction on your motion. I couldn't support anything you push since you seem immature, shallow, & vindictive.

Your motion is simplistic symbolism in the use of "the constitution" as a shield which provides minimal protection. To insist on conformity of all protesters is unworkable and anathema to out fundamental concepts of freedom, diversity and embracing of all non violent tactics.

So good luck in all your good efforts, but I, like I guess everyone else do not not agree that your motion will add to our great success.

And you are not the kind of person I would lend my support to.

Good day.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

You seem like you enjoy labeling people or calling them names, as you mis-represent their ideas... But that's just my perspective.

Good day to you.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

And if we don't use your motion you give us a C- and take your ball and go home.

Oh well such is life. we will have to make our way without your precious motion.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

My ball has been in play here for over a year...it isn't going anywhere, and neither am I.

Help me help us make a difference, and support the passage of the Motion put forward...please.

I sincerely feel it could be the tool that makes the difference.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Ok. I'm sure all OWS is missing is YOUR motion. We're changing the world but if only we would just implement your motion everything would be just right.

And certainly your NOT being self centered, we're just nothing without your motion.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

The Motion submitted is a tool. One honed and made ready to make a difference.

You guys are chopped trees down and into pieces with your faces, and I am standing here with a chain saw...

We can get a LOT more work done, with much less injury, if we just use the tools provided.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So the consensus has spoken. Now it is time to acknowledge what the majority has decided, Submit, and move on!.

We must be mature enough to admit defeat and regroup. Certainly mature enough not to let it cloud our opinion of this great progressive movement.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

OR maybe this squirmy this rascal known as OWS just need to be held down and force-fed more than one spoonful of medicine...

This Motion IS what OWS lacks.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

The 'current' congress has been the least active congress ever, at something like 215 bills passed. The Tea Party is winning...

That said, I think the tide of reason is changing, I think.

What we NEED is more ows-sympathetic elected officials.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I see much tea party failure and chaos.

I see slow progress on all progressive agenda items.

I agree What we NEED is more ows-sympathetic elected officials.

I say:

replace all pro 1% conservatives w/ pro 99% progressives.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

That takes 'organization'...and a willingness to work 'within' the current system.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So we've done all this:

We have begun abolishing medical debt, provided massive mutual aid to the victims of Hurricane Sandy, Seized the national dialogue from the right wing austerity centric tea party, encouraged, & empowered every progressive, union, non union labor, like minded politicians in the country. Spread around the planet in 1 Year!

And more. Without a leader, without being co opted, or corrupted by politics/parties, but because your motion hasn't been adopted you give us a C-?

A little narrow minded, & self centered no?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Your personal attacks are unwarranted and unappreciated. Please stop.

My C- is my perspective. You need not agree with it.

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Repost it, lets check it out.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago
[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I ain't no cheerleader, I'm a realist who recognizes that after 1 year we have begun to make slow progress.

The only changes I recommend are expansion, growth, more of the successful activities that has encouraged every progressive org, union, non union workers, & like minded pols.

You don't fix what ain't broke, We must build on what IS working.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Have you read my Motion Post?

It is how I 'began' my relationship with OWS. To date it has had ZERO affect herein...sadly. :(

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"How could I possibly 'see' OWS through someone else's perspective???"

You shouldn't! No one is suggesting you do! But you acknowledged "successes OWS has achieved. Bravo, well done," But gave them a C- because of inaction on YOUR motion.

Isn't that self centered?.

"Aren't YOU guilty of the same thing??? You have had only good experiences, so you give OWS an A. How self centered!!!"

I am grading OWS on THEIR actions & successes! The A grade I give them has nothing to do with MY motions or even my negative experiences with them (of which there have been).

So no my grade of OWS is NOT self centered.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Determining the OWS grade (C-) based solely on the inaction on YOUR motion is what I am questioning as self centered.

I didn't say the Motion was self centered.

Understand?

"Stop the war on workers!"

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

How could I possibly 'see' OWS through someone else's perspective???

Aren't YOU guilty of the same thing??? You have had only good experiences, so you give OWS an A. How self centered!!!

"Vote Smart, or NOT at all."

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well obviously I disagree, I give us an A.

But my question (not a personal attack!) is if you agree with the OWS achievements (as you claimed ..and all that rot) isn't a C- because of inaction on YOUR motion self centered, & narrow minded?

That is a serious QUESTION. Not an attack.

Ooooh more slogans for you.

"the PEOPLE are too big to fail!"

"people over profits"

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

How can my Motion be self-centered?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"I am not here to diminish........OWS....... Bravo, well done, and all that rot." Clearly sarcastic & therefore not believable!

"suggestion box....to handle me & my suggestions" Because it is ALL about you. Ain't it?

Ship is sailing just fine without the need for a strong individual leader. Deck hands doing fine, busy achieving great things.: We have begun abolishing medical debt, provided massive mutual aid to the victims of Hurricane Sandy, Seized the national dialogue from the right wing austerity centric tea party, encouraged, & empowered every progressive, union, non union labor, like minded politicians in the country. Spread around the planet in 1 Year!

I give the movement an A. Of course. What do you give it.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

C-...

And there was no sarcasm intended. My lack of love for this movement's processes are blatant.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Great things are being done. I do not see the waste you claim to. You seem to have missed all the success we've had.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Look, I am not here to diminish or otherwise downplay the successes OWS has achieved. Bravo, well done, and all that rot.

That said, the movement, from my perspective, isn't serving my needs as a protesters, or my concerns as a citizen. There doesn't seem to be any 'suggestion box' infrastructure to handle me or my suggestions. It 'loosely' ran nature and complete lack of accountable leadership has the ship adrift, with no bearing, and the deck hands all fiddling with their own belly buttons.

A set of general top down marching orders, would be nice. A manner to set up and run a successful march or protest would be helpful.

If you were going to grade OWS as a movement what would you give it?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

We ARE unified in message!!!!

We stand for economic equity!, An end to the obscene destructive concentration of wealth amongst the 1%.

We stand for penalizing outsourcing, living wage w/ cola. We stand for increased taxes on wealthy, lower taxes on the 99%.

Our marches encourage all views, we do not insist on conformity. We WANT diversity!

Diversity is our strength. THAT is why we have been so successful!

Why doesn't that make you happy?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

...because "it", OWS hasn't done anything...well that's not true.

I don't know, I was just hoping for more, and see so much unused potential.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Why would I do anything when you refused to analyze why it languishes?

Why should everyone conform to one message? How is that good? We've gotten together in a focused way on single issues many times. We may not carry the same sign or wrap ourselves in the same uniform but we're gettin more done than you are.

You can't get one motion even considered.! (No wonder your sad!)

We have begun abolishing medical debt, provided massive mutual aid to the victims of Hurricane Sandy, Seized the national dialogue from the right wing austerity centric tea party, encouraged, & empowered every progressive, union, non union labor, like minded politicians in the country. Spread around the planet in 1 Year!

1 YEAR!

And we ain't even really got started. Hang on boss, it get's bumpy from here.

OWS makes ME happy!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

sigh...

Analyzing why OWS does anything is a huge waste of time, period.

EACH march, should be unified in message, NOT the whole of OWS...

I never said I didn't get it considered...I said not a single GA has passed it.

Well, I am glad you are happy...

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I do not know why YOUR motion languishes. I DO know that YOU should know and take the necessary action to move it forward or change it.

If YOU care enough about it. Your responses appear to suggest, you don't know, it's too difficult to analyze, and you want others to do your work for you.

Good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

That's funny...

"Alone" none of us can accomplish anything. The Motion languishes because OWS itself refuses the very elements within the Motion, the first being "unification in message".

What I ask of you, and EVERYONE is that you do your best to help push this into reality... Send an e-mail or two to others, post a link on a facebook page, anything really. I AM doing what I can, really...this is only part of my efforts.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

If you ain't interested enough to figure out why your 'motion' has not been embraced, why should I? "inability to attend ga"? I guess if only they saw your suggestion they would have seen the brilliance.

Good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Wait, shouldn't this be "our efforts"...?

This Motion has been through an amendment process, and is in fact STILL open to amendment. It got seconds aplenty, but Redjazz himself saw no merit in it, nor did he offer any amendments...so, why do YOU think it languishes?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You don't see the value in trying to determine if someone has an objection?.

Many comments on the motion post. Any clue in the comments?

Seems like it might worth the effort to figure what the problem is.

If you cared of course.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I think the biggest problem was my inability to attend a GA, "in person" to see it passed...

Look for yourself, there is very little, if any specific issues taken against the Motion itself.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Why do you think it has not been embraced, adopted, 2nded etc?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I could speculate if you'd like, but I don't think it would help...

I'd rather just see it GET adopted and employed.

In this finalized form, I think it could do a lot of good.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I can't say that I HAVE seen your 'motion' post.

What exactly did you expect when you posted it?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-motion-i-seek-a-2nd/

I expected..."adoption", then "employment", then "greater successes"...hopefully. :)

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I hear many pols using Occupy terminology. The 99% v the 1%. I see a real change from the tea party approach of austerity & deficit reduction, to progressive stimulus and tax fairness.

I think it is a slow process. Progressive groups claim they won 60 seats in congress this past cycle.

You can be sure that progressives WILL push an agenda in line with Occupy ideals.

That IS happening. In 20 months we will make more slow progress in the next election cycle. if we keep our efforts going we WILL continue progressive groups to speak up, & take a stand.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Look, I wanna be a cheerleader too, but things aren't great by any stretch.

OWS needs to make serious changes to how it does business, and what it does on a day to day basis.

It lacks in every way: organization, accountable leadership, and a plan for unification...

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I think we are can influence politicians from the outside as we have.

We have change the national dialogue, the direction of the country, we have allowed progressives to find their voices, we have encouraged progressives groups who are committed to working within the system.

That is an important role. We can continue doing what we're doing. Expand even, but not necessarily become an inside the system org. We should partner with like minded groups already working within the system.

That is how we have achieved in only one year the slow progress that we have made.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I doubt OWS has enough money to truly influence legislation...we simply lack the congressional backing to have any really influence right now.

And I don't really hear the "Occupy" vib very much these days, anywhere.

What we need are world changing behaviors, protests unified in message, and a massive injection of organization.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

There is no such thing as an OWS politician in this system.

And there is no such thing as a Tea Party politician in this system either. Spending is still going up. Rights are going down. War continues. Banks are stealing 85 billion a month and counting.

Nothing is changing for the good. And the bad shit is increasing.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

You are absolutely wrong. And you know it. You are blatantly lying in your regular weak effort at defeatist, negative, "everyone isthe same", "we can't do anything" effort to shut down any action to push progressive solutions.

We have forced repubs to increase tax rates on millionaires/billionaires, and increase the estate tax to 40%. Not enough! but a 1st small step. WE must agitate all pols for the next progressive step.

We have protected middle class taxes, & prevented repubs from cutting pgms forthe poor.

Slow progress that we must embrace and build on. Support the Occupy centric progressive polls pushing our agenda and denounce right wing extremist anti 99% pols.

replace pro 1% conservatives w/ pro 99% progressives.

[-] 0 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Since Occupy began, we have gotten our rights to a lawyer taken away, attacked Libya, watched LIBOR go off without a peep, watched JP record profits, watched the Central Bankers currently stealing 85 billion a month, and watched 3 more free trade with poor countries to exploit passed.

Middle class tax cuts were saved for a moment.

All of it combined is not progress. Its movement in the wrong direction.

Realizing it is motivating to some, others get discouraged by reality and retreat.

Which one are you?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

What are you babbling about?. We are slowly demilitarizing. Would be faster if not for the war mongering neocons efforts.

We have passed fin reform over the objection of right wing bankster puppets. It is far too weak, because of repubs watering it down, and it has been delayed by repub obstruction, But we passed it in the face of immense bankster power.

The wall st oligarchs STILL have immense power and real control over the peoples govt! We have not removed money from politics (movetoamend.org).

And even though we haven't removed the 1% corp oligarchs money from politics there have been some courageous pols (progressives) who pushed through the reforms we have.

They must be lifted up. They must be embraced as we agitate all polsto expand the fin regs we need!

Attacking the few weak pols who stand up against the 1% corp oligarchs strengthens our enemies, by weakening those few who have made slow progress.

[-] 1 points by fgdesign (52) 2 years ago

Thanks. There is absolutely no reason we can't have a slogan or at least a short statement about what we believe. Perhaps a twitter hastag could consolidate this. #owsstatement

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Agreed. +10

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 2 years ago

Your slogan is spot on

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Which slogan is that?

[-] 1 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

So you guys are against "corruption". Well, I bet the politicians and corrupt big business are running in fear!. Move on people, more of the same here.

[-] 2 points by fgdesign (52) 2 years ago

There have been many successful movements in history that have rallied support for just this type of change... are you so cynical that you think now is somehow different? If everyone thought like you your kids would be working in coal mines 6 days a week for 14 hours a day, women and blacks wouldn't be allowed to vote, and we'd have NO anti-trust and financial regulation. If you feel as though passively accepting things as "how the world works" is a good position, you have a right to have it. But if you know even a little about history, you know that these things can and do get changed; and mostly because regular people demand it... exactly what OWS is doing now.

[-] -1 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

Unlike you, I do know my history. I hate how people keep comparing OWS to other movements in history, specifically the civil rights movement, the revolution, and women's suffrage. OWS is a bunch of lazy hippies who are obsessed with occupying things. That's a fact and you know it. There are no clear goals, there are no clear leaders, and there is no effort to get in the system and really actually do anything. The other movements your reference had great leaders, great thinkers, and actual support. They did more than just protest and occupy things. You can say a lot of emotional things and then say I don't know my history, but you'll only make yourself look stupid. I'm not against change, but this movement is pathetic. It is unorganized, filled with too many lazy college students obsessed with protesting, and not gaining support and taking the actions it needs to.

[-] 2 points by fgdesign (52) 2 years ago

It is gaining support as the national dialogue has completely changed over the past months.

If your only objection to the movement is the untrue talking point that only "lazy hippies" are involved (do hippies even exist anymore?), then you are simply involved in style wars.

I'm not a hippie I am a small business owner. If you actually go to a march or an occupy site you'll see that it is made up of all kinds of people, not the clichés the right-wing media spits out. I'd go further and say that the if that people are reduced to silly statements like Newt's "take a bath", then it is a good reflection of how powerful OWS has become.

If you knew your history so well you'd know these are EXACTLY the same things the establishment said against the movements you have a problem comparing this one to: that they were fringe, un-American, other, disorganized, and YES, dirty hippies (or beatniks or socialists or "reds" etc). ALL of these movements started with a backlash from people like you attacking the movement not for its message (that would be too hard and demand intellectual honesty), but for it's supposed different value system form "real" Americans.

If you're so convinced this has no power and no longevity, why are you here and using your time to attack people who are actually trying to do something? If the movement was so pathetic, YOU wouldn't be protesting it so much. I wrote this blog about that very phenomenon:

https://rehistoric.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/fear-of-a-slack-planet-how-the-rights-critique-of-occupy-wall-street-demonstrate-its-success/

I'll be sure to let all my corporate and non-profit clients know they are paying a "lazy hippy." Enjoy the burbs, kiddo...

[-] 0 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

I came here because I was interested in what was going on. I had heard about it on the news and thought I'd come see what was going on. I was shocked to find no goals, no leaders, no organization, and a lot of "gimme gimme gimme" going on. Since I don't know my history, tell me in what ways the revolution or the civil rights movement were "exactly" like this one. Me protesting this doesn't mean it is successful any more than you protesting corruption validates it in any way. That failure in logic won't work here "kiddo".

[-] 2 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I can vouch for the no leaders, no organization thing...not so much for the gimmie gimmie gimmie...

[-] 2 points by fgdesign (52) 2 years ago

I think I already did... to recap they used the same types of clichés to attack the messengers rather than the message. If you were really interested you'd have no trouble understanding the movement or its goals, and by the same token, if you are only looking for negatives you will find that as well.

There is nothing confusing about a movement to re-regulate the finacial markets and stop (or try to limit) the power of corporate money in the electoral process. It is very simple to understand.

I'd submit that if you are distracted by a few people who are less clear or even talking nonsense and want to make that what the entire movement is, in your mind, than that is a choice you made. I've chosen to look at and focus on the positives, not the negatives.

My "insult" to you of kiddo was just tit for tat for the "lazy hippies" comment... basically showing how easy it is to minmize or marginalize someone if that is your choice. So, I'll apologize... but maybe if you are actually interested you can try to dig a little deeper than the clichés.

My two cents... Peace.

[-] 0 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

Using generalities about the opposition does not make those actual movements in anyway the same as this one. Try again.

There is nothing confusing about that, I agree. But what are the clear goals , specific demands, desired mechanisms, proposed changes SPECIFICALLY? I've tried to dig. I've made threads asking for answer to the questions I just asked. Nobody can do anything more than say "corruption and money out of politics" and then use a lot of generalizations and emotional terms to act like they are saying facts.

[-] 2 points by fgdesign (52) 2 years ago

Your debating style is obnoxious. I don't need to try anything again, you can simply say you don't agree with me. I'm not obligated to convince you of anything, and as i said before, you seem predisposed to not want to learn about the movement.

My very first time at ows i saw signs saying "reinstate Glass Stegal." Very specific, and something everyone I know in the movement agrees with. If you don't know what that is, try Google.

The best way to get corporate money out of the electoral process is to overturn People vs. United. Again, a very specific demand that I haven't heard a single protestor against. Perhaps the protestors are wrong in assuming that people who don't know what a "Corporations are Not People" sign means would actually ask about it or do some research.

But again, speaking only for myself, we are optimistic that people are interested enough in preventing another financial collapse like 2008, that they might be motivated to actually do something to protect themselves and their family's best interests for the future. Like do a Google search.

So those are two SPECIFIC, UNIVERSALLY SUPPORTED demands of OWS. More involve making the tax code more fair (taxing the rich and removing loopholes for corporations), ending corporate welfare (subsidies, especially for the oil industry), and regulating lobbyists better.

So, if you have actually made a choice, you can easily learn more. Or, you can insist that someone babysit you and demand that people convince you that your snap judgements are flawed.

As for me, I'm done. The information is available and I apologize that you may need to do a tiny bit of work to discover more. If you attitude is simply to be contrarian or a naysayer, which it seems to be, anything else I say is just a waste of my time and yours.

So to quote you, try again. Or not... it is still a free country. the movement will continue with or without you, You can change your approach and try to learn something, or just be an anonymous heckler. As far as the latter goes, you have reached my time limit, so feel free to "yell" your denials at others. 1st amendment baby... it ain't my job to make you try harder. Peace.

[-] 0 points by HeavySigh (227) 2 years ago

I never asked for anyone to babysit me or convince me that my judgements are flawed. I'm a conservative and the first place I went was not to "faux new", but to this website in hopes of seeing what it was about. Is there anything specific here like the things you just said? NO there's not. So the next step I took was the forums and asking the users to give me specifics. Did I get any? No I didn't. I got flamed because I criticized them for not having clear goals. Excuse me for wanting to get an unbiased and straight from the source idea of what OWS is about. I don't have time to "go see signs at ows" considering I live very far away, can't afford such trips out of the blue, and have many prior responsibilities. Maybe next time I can gather specific demands and goals from obscure signs like "Corporations are Not People" and I can "like go do a google search". Most of the google searches I did turned up "they are against corruption". If it was an ows site, it was full of emotional speaking without solid facts or demands. I guess I pushed to hard considering you've abandoned comparing this to other movements now. Do a little research yourself.

[-] 3 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

'I' could give you TONS of "clear goals", specific solutions, and an unbiased straight from the source idea of what OWS is all about:

YOU should do a little more research: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

It'll be "more of the same", so long as voter continue with their normal behavior.

[-] 4 points by superman22x (188) 2 years ago

I am about a 7. I had hope at first that we were going for real change. Now it seems like everyone just wants free handouts. No one should have to work hard for a job to get paid well. And we should have everything paid for by the rich. That's not right though. We want justice, not handouts. The problem with socialism is that eventually, we run out of other people's money to spend.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

-5 for screwing up Margret Thatcher's best line.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

'I' don't want what you descibed, but I am also not a spokesperson, so maybe OWS is a socialistic movement that only wants handouts...

I can't help but wonder how you came to that conclusion?

[-] 1 points by superman22x (188) 2 years ago

The people I've talked to want high minimum wages, better this, better that. But when you tell them you have to work friggin hard for that (60 hour weeks and so on) they say, "what? No, I shouldn't have to do that, that's not fair." Either you inherit money from someone who did that, or you do it yourself. Or you get lucky in the stock market, lottery, vegas, housing market. That's how it works here and how it always had. The issue is that rich people hoard their money.

[-] 4 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Listen more closely, because I think you missed the part about minimum wage should be a "living wage".

A miminum wage job shouldn't make you 'rich', but you SHOULD be able to survive on one full time job. As it is, if you have one miminum wage job, you are likely also partaking in government aid programs.

The thing with 'money', is that if you have it, it is easy to make more of it... If you DON'T have any 'extra' money to invest, then you'll always live paycheck to paycheck.

People who work miminum wage jobs can't even pay their basic necessity bills.

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

A fair minimum wage which will feed and house a person is a reasonable objective. Unfortunately, the kind of jobs which are being created in this economy aren't likely to solve the income disparity dilemma. At the height of my working days, I was comfortable working >80 hrs/wk. That said, I was a private contractor in construction A vibrant construction sector offers huge opportunity for the ordinary individual to get to an earning level high enough to help the 1% pay their share. There is plenty of comment suggesting that many people are not willing to work hard enough to improve their lives. BS. The vast majority respond to incentive. I don't know what the minimum wage is in the US, but I believe it is somewhat less than the<> $9/hr in Canada. Pretty hard to get excited about putting in 80-90 hours/wk to earn maybe 40K/year. Widening income disparity is partly attributable to the loss of decently paid jobs, again attributable to bottom-line behavior on the part of companies large enough to source cheap international labor, and, again, to the bottom-line position which puts stockholders ahead of workers. Is it any wonder that the energy of OWS appears undefined? Globalisation is inevitable & desirable, but is accompanied by economic/social dislocation. OWS seems to me to be, in part, an expression of the the latent dissatisfaction of the working class. On the part of the 1%: Is there something inherently untenable about the notion of making sure that nobody, "deserving" or otherwise, starves. As Marie said, "Let them eat cake." I wonder whether those words reverberated for her at a certain point in her lifetime. What goes around comes around.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

She never actually said that, and minimum wage is $7.25 per hour in America today.

There's nothing wrong with globalism, so long as America exports its affluence as well as its influence.

[-] 2 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

superman22x. I agree with you totally. The majority of the posts here and information in the country in general boil down to one term - MONEY, and its' relationship to ME.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

I don't get that at all...

Our country is in debt, and the U.S. dollar is falling. If we increase taxes and pay down our debt, the Dollar's value will rise, and our purchasing power will increase.

We have to think about MONEY as a "Us", thing.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

When has increased taxes ever reduced the debt of this nation. Are you not fooling everyone when you think that somehow that will magically happen between the dollar out of the taxpayers hand and how that dollar will actually be spent.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Was that a 'serious' question?

Because I am 100% confident that I can point to several historic tax increases that resulted in a smaller debt.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Very serious. Historically, taxes HAVE increased over time and today, regardless of the up-down swing of the tax rates, we have the greatest national debt that we have ever had. One that probably can never be reduced in any significant way by any tax increase due to the fact that that debt now represents a significant percent of the nation GNP.

[-] 2 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

You've been misinformed...

First, our overall tax rate is LOWER than it has been in decades. Second, if you counted every dollar held in the U.S., you'd have around 190 TRILLION dollars. Our debt is a mere 14 trillion. If we raised taxes to balance the budget and begin paying down the debt, what do you think would happen to the value of the money in your pocket?

The current level of our debt is due in large part by to the recent barrage of tax cuts. Check out the graph just beneath the heading Historical Date and Federal Spending: http://understandingfiscalresponsibility.org/?s=non-defense+discretionary

Taxes are how we pay the bills and the debt. LOWERING taxes does NOT provide less debt, regardless of how many republicans say it does. The short term growth never delivers long term results.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

In the first place, is may be lower than it has been in decades. But keep in mine that at one point in time, the rate was -0-.

The value of the money in my pocket is not what concerns me the most. It is the value of property that I hold, whether it be my home or my one small bar of silver.

I think that if you will set up a simple balance sheet with the decreased tax collections on one side and the increased cost of the defense and social progam spending - you will get a pretty clear picture of what we have such a high debt. There will actually be such an off-balance that you, yourself, will be dumbfounded at what it shows.

In order to stop the current deficit spending for just one fiscal year, we would have to generate at least 43cents more for every dollar we spend. Do you want your taxes increased that much.

Taxes SHOULD be how we pay the bills and the debt. However, we create the obligation LONG LONG before we get the bill. These bills are not coming due and we DO NOT have the funds to pay them and probably not the GUTS to raise taxes enough to do so.

We are left with one option, cut the obligations, cut the bills and live within our means. You do have a good understanding of what the word "bankrupt" means do you not.

The word "mere" is a rather naive way of describing the debt today. Your statment that all the money in the US totals 190 T dollars sounds like a great, really great amount, except for the fact that it is held by over 300M people and may or may not be held in the form of dollars.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

You are missing the point, and ignoring the information presented to you.

One, America has PLENTY of money being held by private individuals. Hell Willard "Mitt" Romney makes $53,000 A DAY! AND he only pays 13% tax. Raise taxes on those who can afford to pay, enough to BOTH balance the budget and begin paying down the debt. By doing so, you will 'increase' the value of the dollars in your pocket, giving you greater purchasing power. This will result in Americans having more ability to buy more things, which will in-turn raise the value of your property.

Two, I provided you THE information about how increasing taxes does NOT increase the debt. You aren't allowed your own facts. When taxes go DOWN, the deficit goes UP. Taxes pay bills, LOWER taxes = BIGGER deficits.

Our country isn't bankrupt, and asking Americans to pay THEIR bills in full, wouldn't kill our economy. In fact, history suggests that paying down your country's debt will stimulate the economy.

Cutting government spending, while our nation's infrastructure is literally falling apart is simply wrong-headed.

[-] -1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

YOU ignore the facts. Our infrastructure was not an issue, until you chose to use it in your last post. I was not discussing infrastructure at all. My contention was with our

Gee King, you make it all sound so simple just like ECON 001.

I do have a couple of problems with your solutions:

  1. Where do you get the idea of PLENTY of money. Is this the general opinion of some economist, something you derived from the 190T$$ fact you brought up, or your honest opinion. I have not seen the issue presented in the terms that because Mr. Romney makes $53,000 a day, therefore America has plenty of money. How about, we say because Jimmy Thompson is homeless, American is broke. Makes about as much sense to me.

  2. I agree that the debt needs to be paid down. However, what is the point if we don't stop the out of control spending that we see today. You could wipe out the debt instantly and in 60 seconds we would owe another amount that would exceed my lifetime earnings. It would be similar to you hauling sand out of the box in a tin can when someone else it hauling sand in with a dump truck.

  3. That is fine regarding TWO - but you have not convinced me that the correlations in your equation LOWER taxes - BIGGER deficits, really has any validity unless you are talking minute numbers. You simply cannot ignore all the other factors that contribute to the debt. Excuse - that is what you are doing. I should have said, you simply SHOULD not......

  4. Which Americans, exactly, are you asking to pay THEIR bills in full. Are you referring to the rich, the poor, all Americans. I very much expect from the tone of your posts that you really mean that the rich Americans should pay OUR bills in full.

  5. If you think that I am wrong-headed, in recommending cutting government spending you are simply twisting what I said to meet your own agenda. You are the only one that has mentioned cutting infrastructure expenditures. If you will note, my statement was that we should be looking at our social program expenditures if we are serious about cutting the debt. Even Congress is getting around to admitting that we really cannot do much so far as cutting expenditures and reducting the debt until we are willing to do so.

You have presented YOUR facts, but these seems to be your interpretations and plan of actions, which in my opinion would not make an impact upon the problem for any extended period of time.

Looking at the fact that America has PLENTY of money is equivalent to looking at the sewer pond and saying that we have a lot of water to drink. If push comes to shove, maybe that PLENTY would be better spent on building and upgrading our factories and production facilities, hiring more workers and getting the economy going again. If it means the difference in taxing and paying off the debt - vs - investing in our economy and letting you keep you job - which do you choose. This may be a case, where you really can't have it both ways.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Okay, that was quite a mouthful. Let's start with my bringing up infrastructure. Our roads and bridges scored an overall grade of "C", by the Army Corps of Engineers. We don't need to to cut spending therein, we need to INCREASE spend, which would require again tax increases. Keeping rates where they are would LEAVE our infrastructure crumbing...

But in your #5, you want to instead cut social programs??? I'd guess that would include stuff like food stamps, welfare checks, and SSI, right? As someone actually 'on' SSI Disability, I can report to you that I can't afford to receive less, from the government. At the end of the month, there's no 'extra' money laying around. CUTTING these services means someone goes without food, rent, or electricity. Which do you think I can do without?

1... 190 TRILLION dollars is a LOT of money. And someone making $53,000 a day, you'd THINK they should pay their fair share, but they don't because they can afford great tax attorneys. I can't and neither can my dad, so we pay an effective rate of 30%... And this is really the problem, the tax code has been written to make certain that the rich DON'T pay their fair share. We would never have to raise taxes, if everyone just paid their fair share.

2 The only out of control spending I see is in our military. We spend twice as much money on our military than EVERY other county combined. Were we to end our wars, and eliminate our foreign outposts, there could well be savings.

3 Wait, you DON'T think that the tax rate is DIRECTLY proportional to the deficit??? Okay, that's just crazy buddy. You need to step out of the ignorance fog, and see the world as it really is. Collect less taxes, and you GET bigger deficits. This is historical fact.

4 Which Americans...? Really? If YOU don't know which Americans need to have their taxes increased, then please stay away from sharp objects.

5 ...I already covered.

In conclusion, I think you are living in a world of make believe. Paying off our debt will raise the value of the American dollar, which has historically caused economic stimulus. How does government invest in the economy, anyways?

[-] 1 points by superman22x (188) 2 years ago

Very well put. That's all it really is. OWS would do a lot of things that those big bad CEOs do too given the opportunity. Because from what I have seen, most people are about money in relation to themselves (free handouts, higher minimum wage, all this "I deserve good money" talk).

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

Americans run in fear of socialism. People are as free in many "socialised" countries as they are in the US. Pick your brand of control, and figure out who benefits.

[-] 2 points by superman22x (188) 2 years ago

Well, we always assume it's going to be all socialism or something. We are not a capatilist economy, we are not a socialist economy, we are not a communist economy, we are not a free-market economy. In a sense, we are a combination of all 4. Falling under any one label will not work.

[-] 0 points by theaveng (602) 2 years ago

The problem with socialism is that eventually, we run out of other people's money to spend.

Judge Napolitano? Is that you? ;-) Personally I don't give a damn about letting the rich pay for everything. According to the IRS the top 5% already pay 70% of the income tax, so they are essentially keeping the country afloat anyway.

What I'd like to see... is not handouts... but tax relief. IMHO the first $100,000 should have an IRS marginal rate of 0% (and thereby free up money to be spent in the economy). The lower and middle classes are already too heavily burdened with the flat taxes we call gas tax, sales tax, phone tax, cable tax, ISP tax, and so on. These flat taxes are ~$5000 per person regardless of income.

[-] 2 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

I have no idea what the economics of that proposal are, but it speaks to me.

[-] 0 points by theaveng (602) 2 years ago

Me too.

People with incomes of $100,000 or less are already paying ~20% of their income on payroll taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes, phone taxes, electricity taxes, cellular or wireless taxes, cable TV taxes, utility taxes, and State and Local income taxes. They don't need a U.S. tax burden on top of that.

The first $100,000 IRS marginal rate should be 0%.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

My neighbor, an Americans Airlines pilot, makes over $80,000 a year, and paid IN a total of $43 this year, after his return was completed.

He itemized, and a large portion of his $80,000 was from capital gains.

Now he DID pay income tax through the year, and he estimates that he paid right at 12%...

[-] 3 points by rootz (11) 2 years ago

Yeah, you are right, this movement CAN NOT cause real political change but there is one thing you don't know. You don't know that politics is only a circus to distract our attention from the real decision taking and you can't solve real problems with a "political change".

[-] 1 points by rootz (11) 2 years ago

Sorry, i forget to say that some people say that if this movement fails at least have helped to make people more aware of the raw reality and fight against the root of the problems. I must say this is also wrong, i don't see more "awareness" in OWS people than in the rest of regular population, i see exactly the same level of naive people here and this is very sad.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

What...?

The ONLY way to solve problems in a representative democracy is with political change.

The 'problem' is that voter apathy makes political change difficult to say the least...

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

Representative Democracy? What planet are you living on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBdk5n68gdM

[-] 0 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

the real decisions are made at the bank on who gets the loan and who doesn't. Banks are in charge of the government, not people. If the people were in charge would the banks have got a secret loan for 8 trillion? If the same 8 trillion was given to "we the people" the economy would be bubbling and the morasses would all have been paid. So how can you say the banks are not in control?

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Aren't 'I' at least somewhat accountable for whether or not the bank gives me a loan?

Last time I checked one's credit rating was responsible for denials...?

[-] 1 points by rootz (11) 2 years ago

<<So how can you say the banks are not in control?>> I'm not saying that, read again and better.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Who's in control of whether or not 'I' pay my bills?

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

the level of naive people is astounding everyone seems to have been brainwashed. Too much TV watching? I was raised without TV so I must have missed the "programming" of the mind everyone else got. plastic is good and safe, debt is a good thing borrow today to get ahead of the Jones, just pay tomorrow, borrow money your increased income tomorrow will pay the interest. Interest will not take all your income just borrow more..

[-] 3 points by PatriotSon01 (157) 2 years ago

I'm not 'disappointed' in OWS as much as I've lost much of the initial gung-ho attitudes I had in the beginning.
Where is the political activism I've repeatedly asked about? Where are the figureheads who will lead us onward? Where are the declarations for what we stand-for, Publically declared, perhaps printed in Newsprint or flyers and handed out to the masses - not forgetting the passive document link on this site. This is a movement about our disappearing basic freedoms. This is a movement about the wanton pillaging and fleecing of the 'little guy' and the ignorance of the people to react against those criminals. The numbers of 'followers' swell and the calls for more action have repeatedly grown, however, the 'leadership' of the movement continually practices 'peace and brotherly love' and action through sitting or marching. The establishment sees our unwillingness to act any further than words or marches as something to be ignored. When they try to evict our supporters from locations, they are seeing how far they can push before we snap back. How many want action, but won't join unless we prove we have more mettle. I posted a few days ago that a wise man explained that this movement was too little too late. I denied his declaration, but now, I keep finding sadness that he was right. We are beaten by current tactics. I'm hopeful at a '5'...

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think marches can be powerful things, but only if they informed voters to make better decisions.

This is a democratic republic. We get the government we deserve.

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

Maintain.

[-] 1 points by PatriotSon01 (157) 2 years ago

Despite the fear of being on the losing side, I will support this movement with every breath I have. I will uphold it's tenets and strive to focus it so we can laser the crap from the high places of our country. I will help to burn away the dross and filth inhabiting the darkened hallways of our capitol(s) and our state representatives. I will stay the course, to wrest control of the ship's helm from the rat race in the bilge. I will maintain!

[-] 1 points by theaveng (602) 2 years ago

The "wise man" was correct. I sent ~500 emails to Congressmen and Senators instructing them to vote "no" on the 2008 Bailout Bill, and another ~500 to vote "no" on the 2009 Corproate Welfare Bill. Where were the rest of ye? THAT was the time to make your voice heard... not now.

"The avalanche has already started, and it's too late for the pebbles to vote." All we can do now is sit back and watch as the Euro collapses (destroying the citizens' savings). We may be able to save the U.S. but only if Congress learns to pay-off the ~$150,000 per home national debt. So far they seem disinclined to do that.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Send hand written letters, they are worth 500 e-mails, each.

[-] 2 points by elf3 (2672) 2 years ago

look at all Occupy has accomplished - in less time and less money than it takes Wall Street to put on an ad campaign - Occupy has spread it's message loud and clear- nobody asks what this movement is about anymore the question has turned to what will be done to stop the corruption. Job well done - spread the awareness (once people wake up to the corporate totalitarian state and realize they aren't free - they won't go back to sleep.) Never rest never give up - we are the voice for the 99 percent we are the voice for the people who have none - we are the people who care about you - wallstreet would throw us into anarchy but we want to prevent it before it's too late - we are the ones who know that one percent of the population has stolen the planet's natural abundance and are hording it for themselves and we won't rest until we get it out from their clutches.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

While applaud you for your optimism I think you fail to notice the amount of public good will OWS has lost...

[-] 2 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Well, people can have power. Imagine an America where people refused to vote for candidates who take money from superpacs (and only accepted small individual donations)? Imagine an America where people refused to do business with any commercial bank that also owned (or was owned by) an investment bank. Imagine an America where people bought their goods and services from companies who treated workers fairly, or ideally, employee owned companies. Imagine an America where people refused to watch our 24/7 corporate media chatter box of bullshit?

We really don't need governments permission to run our own society. It simply requires people becoming involved. We'd hope that OWS has staying power, because unless this movement (or something similar) can last five or ten years (at least), we won't get meaningful change. Yes, maybe we can get reforms, and maybe that does the trick for the next decade or two, but eventually (if we don't make deep changes) we'll wind up right back in the same situation.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

"Vote Smart, or not at all."

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

I quit my science job doing research for the Navy 10 years ago

never got another science job

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

If you were doing research for the Navy, I assume you have an advanced science or engineering degree .... so what did you do after that?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

driving, dish washing, wrote an epic

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 2 years ago

Interesting ... although not all science is bad. Science can create problems and solve problems, it can save life and kill, it's just like everything else, it depends on the individuals involved, the surrounding culture, and various other factors.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

true

I won't work for the military industrial complex

when the result is perpetual war

[-] 2 points by sato (148) 2 years ago

Don't lose faith. We need strength and it comes in numbers.

[-] 2 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, Occupy Dallas has a set of forum back up, and I have made one last attempt to propose a Motion for their GA to take up:

https://www.occupydallasga.org/node/105

Forgive me if I don't hold my breath.

[-] 2 points by OccupyTheForestGuy (35) 2 years ago

I can't say that I'm disappointed in OWS. Maybe it is because I'm a bit (ah, well..) older than most of the people here, but I expect there will be a lot of wheel-spinning before real traction is found.

I saw the late 60's. I've watched many revolutions around the world.

They don't happen overnight.

It is a humungous task, this changing the world. No one said it would be easy. No one said that it would be fast. No one said that it would be clean.

I'm already seeing little tidbits of change happening through the media. Look at the recent shock of a judge denying the SEC agreement with CitiGroup. I believe that would not have happened prior to the Occupy Movement. Look at what is NOT in the news and you'll see who owns the countries.

There will be many idiots in the way. They're bugs, we're the windshield. We have to be transparent and we have to keep moving. Slowing down for the winter is a good thing. It will keep some people from freezing to death. It will also give others a chance to think about reality and the current state of the world. It will also give the 1% a chance to think about more nastiness.

Turn the boil down a bit. Don't turn it off. Let this movement simmer until it is time to really explode when the warmer weather returns. Think of this as the winter of our discontent. We're not going away. We're just getting ready for a battle.

During the winter there is greater opportunity to organize, to discuss, to plan. Learn about the people around you. There will be many with whom you can trust your life. There will be a few plants and crazies. Filter this knowledge and work toward being ready for an American Spring.

There will need to be leaders. But leaders who are elected and who actually live by their oaths of office. Pick a few worthy people and then ask them nicely if they choose to give their lives for the movement.

I could go on and on, but I don't want to disappoint anyone.

We'll do it. The road won't be smooth. I get bored on smooth roads, anyway.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+10 for "the winter of our discontent"...

&

+10 for "There will need to be leaders"...

Comments like yours are far too rare, within this movement. Thank you very much for your involvement.

That said, I am 36, and have yet to develop the patients and understanding that another 3 decades will afford me. My expectations far exceeded what OWS is 'currently' capable of. While my hope has been both dashed and diminished...it lives yet still.

Thank you again for your input it is greatly appreciated.

Be well.

[-] 2 points by lonespectator (106) 2 years ago

It should be quite evident by now to every sane person that the nationwide Occupy movement will only be tolerated by local governments until public opinion turns against the squaller and foolishness of a rudderless movement. This time has arrived, and complain as you will, this is no "Arab Spring", and is over.. You were told many times to conduct a full scale Occupation of the White House which is not only the source of the national problems we face, but is not a State, and is governed by different rules that would have allowed you to stay forever in Tents with Generators. The current administration has no back bone to stop you, and the Capitol Police support OWH. But you have failed, and failed miserably . You can thank the DNC backed OWS group and a coerced General Assembly. LA, Oakland, New York, etc.. you have been used!! Wake up.. Go against The GA/ OWS bias and support of the corrupt DNC, and " the White House" Now!!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

"the White House"...?

The President doesn't write laws, he signs them, or not.

Our problem lies with "us", the voters, and those whom we CONTINUE to re-elected 65% of the time, even though they have an approval rating in the teens. I am talking of course about Congress and the Senate who are elected by VOTERS.

This is a democratic republic, we get the government we deserve. Sadly uninformed voter apathy has given us corruption aplenty.

[-] 2 points by 666isMONEY (348) 2 years ago

I'm disappointed and I feel sad, prolly an 8. Reason: no real radical solution has been agreed on. Solutions proposed are wimpy. We need REAL change like eliminating money.

We're facing the 4-horsemen of the Apocalypse: Global warming (climate change), geometric world population growth, peak oil and the funny-money Wall Street games. Not to mention how the CIA killed JFK and all the lies our cuntry used to get us into wars.

American's are sooo brainwashed and superstitious, I don't think America can be saved. U$A has BAD karma and deserved to fall: Babylon (U$A) is falling!

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

I've said this before: Propose an alternative. and make it fly.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago
[-] 2 points by alexrai (851) 2 years ago

Read the new SEC Judgement by Judge Rakoff. You can probably skip the first half, but its pretty clear that OWS has had an impact. The Judge even notes that the SEC had previously convinced the court to rubber stamp its settlements, but refuses to continue the practice.

The reasons he gives are a lot similar to the complaints by OWS protesters.

http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=sec+rakoff+pdf&pbx=1&oq=sec+rakoff+pdf&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=4026l4485l0l5185l2l2l0l0l0l0l123l224l0.2l2l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=97a29442327c00c4&biw=1366&bih=636

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I'll concede that OWS has had an 'impact'...

What 'I' want is for it to make THE difference, which it has not yet done.

[-] 2 points by freeness (6) from Clifton, NJ 2 years ago
[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thank You very much for the link.

[-] 2 points by Fishp00 (122) 2 years ago

I'm at 7, but that's only bc I read this site today: http://www.getmoneyout.com/high_surf_alert

and it really had a lot of the views that I've been wishing to see espoused at my local Occupy (Oakland) movement, but find it repeatedly absent.

I also double check myself and rate my disappointment lower bc I figure that those "disillusioned revolutionaries" are a product of this system that turns out in droves ignorant poorly educated repeatedly beat down people and also over educated adults steeped in debt with no possibility for a career bc they simply aren't there. These populations spin their wheels and/or attempt to wait it out - either way same result.

At the moment our government is so diseased - systemic change is the only answer, but the odds are stacked so far against us it seems practically insurmountable~

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think we HAVE a great form of government...it is 'voters' that need to be reformed.

In a democratic republic, we get the government we desreve.

[-] 2 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 2 years ago

so 10 = super disappointed/ full of regrets because it has actually been a waste of time or even worse???

On that scale I think I'm at a level 3 of disappointment. Some days it goes up to a 4 or 5, depending on what knuckle-head gets featured in bad news reporting. but I guess I'm cutting OWS lots of slack because human beings are just not that intelligent sometimes and at least OWS has the right Main idea and is inspiring discussion and action.

Don't lose hope! There are plenty of "us" out there. We are Americans and we can do this thing. There is more discussion of alternate candidates and an effort to end "legalized bribery". See you in Philly in July??

: )

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I wouldn't say I am 'losing' hope... It isn't like I put my hope down somewhere, and forgot where I put it. My hope has been dashed against the stone cold reality of this movment's deficiencies.

[-] 1 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 2 years ago

that's funny.

the deficiencies are obvious. the strengths less so. will the camps come back? and if not...???

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think their only 'strength' requires authorities to abuse their power and use force to try and stop them...

Non-violence in the face of aggression is the only strength they've shown.

[-] 1 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 2 years ago

and that's not bad, for starters!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

BUT...if the authorities ignored them...they would wither and die...

[-] 2 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 2 years ago

i don't think so. i actually do think that the authorities have good reason to be afraid. i think the camps would grow and thrive... or at least there was the "threat" of that.

so that's another strength, yes? the authorities at least think so!

1st they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you... then...

[-] 2 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

The "authorities" represent those who pay the bills. OWS is attempting to make it clear who truly pays them.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

You simply can't ban together, have nothing to say, and hope that others join you.

The only reason OWS is getting support sans a message, is that authority figures are trying to stop them... People believe everyone is entited to freedom of assembly. I mean that one IS in the Constitution...

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

You think there's no message?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

No, I think there's no "unified message"...

[-] 1 points by beamerbikeclub (414) 2 years ago

well, unfortunately many people have a very narrow view of the 1st Amendment (including the mayor's who are sending the police in).

But why do you say there is no message? Isn't the clear message that our politicians are corrupt and only serving the interests of the famous "1%"?

Have you heard Any messages??

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

First, Mayors aren't the Judiciary. Police and Mayors CAN evict you from public places, but that doesn't mean the action was lawful or Constitutional. That is is a fight to have in Court, and not in the streets.

That said, I HAVE seen messages, TONS of them in every march, and that is the problem. 1000 people all yelling a different message to one guy on a corner can't be heard.

My suggestion is that everyone decide on a singular march message 'for the day', and then go.

The messages I've heard clearly are: "We are the 99%", "They got bailed out we got SOLD out."...other than that, everything has been muttled.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

You have only been to one occupation. I am sorry you had a bad experience there. This forum really isn't the place where you can reasonably expect to get anything done. About half the contributors to this forum are hostile to OWS and its values. Most of the rest, while sincerely sympathetic to OWS, have never been to a GA much less and occupation and really are clueless as to how OWS actually functions. Occupations can differ considerably from place to place. I don't think it is at all true that OWS is without a message. Read the Declaration of the Occupation of New York City, on this website and elsewhere on the web. Nor is it quite accurate to say that it is leaderless. It is probably more accurate to say that it is leaderful. If you are looking for a leader, look in a mirror. In terms of getting your ideas taken seriously, I think that you need to start with a sense of humility and not taking yourself too seriously. It's a big movement and we are all, as individuals, one voice within it. Sometimes some of our ideas will gain some traction and sometimes not. It comes with the territory and is built into the very nature of democratic movements. I'd say, if you are not near enough to an occupation or a GA to be convenient for you to participate in regularly, try starting your own in your own community.

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

In a way, it's good to hear from those who are disappointed. Be aware, change is painful, both for those who see themselves as being disadvantaged and those who may benefit. Change is least painful for those who are engaged. Be one of dem, or one of dose.

[-] 1 points by rroll1952 (8) 2 years ago

What was "occupying" a meaning-less park-not even "WALL STREET"..ever going to accomplish ? Really....to win,we need to build a MOVEMENT....Not a new-age camp-site.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Spending any time at all at an occupation I think would clearly demonstrate to most people that it is considerably more than a New Age camp site. But even if you never went to an occupation, just reading the news should convince most mildly sympathetic people that the occupations were a good deal more than some hippy experiment. They were in fact the inspiration for literally hundreds of occupations all around the world, on every continent and in nearly every state in the United States. They re-inspired the Egyptian revolution. This is not fantasy. Representatives from Egypt came to Zuccotti plaza and told us that.

This was far from meaningless. This was a highly visible public space where the curious could come to learn about the movement. It was also a very serious experiment in modelling the kind of society we want to live in. Beyond that, the occupations themselves are really the defining characteristic of this movement.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I've been to two Occupy camps, one twice.

From eerything 'I' have seen, this movement as a whole has 'rejected' any and all notions about spokespeople, representatives, and "Leaders".

I've heard the phrase, "No leaders allowed.", more times than I can count.

There might be a lot of leaders within the movement, but they aren't being allowed to act like it.

[-] 2 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 2 years ago

No individual leaders this is true, but if OWS is turning away people who want to do things, then they are just crazy. OWS is smart in not wanting to allow people to be targeted as leaders of the movement. If the movement has a leader, then it also has a target that can be eradicated leaving the movement in collapse.

Be a powerful tool of the movement, and be a "leader" by example. Find others who want to be powerful tools and who want to get things done in your area. This is a slow building movement and it needs time to develop. This is not going to happen over night, but it will work if we stick with it and understand that "leaderless" is a facade. Its aim should be to be a movement only of leaders, but leaders who don't need "credit" and who can't be targeted.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The movement NEEDS quality rotating spokespeople, who's job it is to represent the messages, slogans, and current activities for OWS..."directly to the media"...

[-] 1 points by rroll1952 (8) 2 years ago

That and lead a march !!!! did you witness the confusion the morning Zuccotti was evicted ? Back and forth across tow...leave the park,back to the park.....the cops wanted everyone back into the park so they could corral you,like they did ! Whatever happened to WALL STREET ? Remember "occupy WALL STREET"?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I saw at least 3 videos of the event...disorganization and chaos would be putting it mildly. It WAS however, very early in the morning, but those in charge SHOULD have had a plan for the eviction attempt.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Still sounds like you have had a couple of bad experiences based on very little evidence. I'll acknowledge that the notion of leaderlessness is part of the self image of the movement, but the opposite is also true, though less frequently stated. That is, that we are all leaders. At a large occupation or GA, really the only way to get your voice heard is by working through one of the many Working Groups that they typically have. In smaller occupations or GAs, it is more typical that your voice can be heard directly at a GA, but you shouldn't expect that just because you think you have a good idea that it will necessarily resonate with anyone else at the GA. That's how democracy works.

[-] 3 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Have you read the Motion I've been trying to get adopted or passed?

"I move that all OWS Protests be composed of 3 elements- Protesters, Constitutional Shields (A cardboard or paper shield embossed with the U.S. Constitution on one side, and a blank space on the other for the day's march message.), and an Action (Trash Pick-up, Street Sweeping, or Volunteer Brigade). Such that each march accomplishes 3 things- makes the world a cleaner place, carries a unified message, and protects protesters with the Constitution."

Would you second, or offer the Motion in my stead?

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Well, this is not something that I am supportive of. Not that I'm especially against it. It just doesn't move me and you should take responsibility for your own stuff. Go to a GA and walk it through.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The Motion would 'protect' protesters, ALLOW them to carry a unified message, AND would directly impact the world for the better...and this doesn't 'move' you...!?!?

The nearest GA is two hours away from me, I am a quadraplegic in a wheelchair, and I simply can't afford to go to a GA, right now.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

I am sorry for your disability. I have communicated with several other OWS supporters with severe disabilities. One idea I had was perhaps to set up an OccupyDisabilities GA on line specifically for the disabled and their supporters who cannot attend an occupation. If you have difficulty with this I suspect that you could probably get somebody from a functioning GA to help you out if you reached out and asked. I have in mind someone with computer skills, which is not my forte.

In terms of what moves me personally, I think that OWS should keep on doing what it is doing. Actual occupations, I think, are extremely important for several reasons: 1) they are the defining characteristic of the movement, 2) they are a visible public space where people can come to learn about the movement and 3) they provided a kind of model for the kind of society we want.

For those reasons I personally think that serious efforts to re-occupy trump just about everything else the movement could do. As to the most appropriate strategies and tactics that local movements should use to reoccupy, I believe that is contingent on time and place. I personally don't see anything in your proposal that makes it superior in anyway to dozens of other proposals I've seen, some of which have passed one GA or another and some of which haven't

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your proposal. It is just my take. But I would make one more suggestion. It is in the nature of democratic politics that it is probably not in anyone's best interest to alienate those who they hope to win over. In this instance I'm referring to your efforts to win over me. I don't claim to be an expert at this and I realize that I am not always the most diplomatic person in the world, but the principle still applies.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I 'considered' an occupydisabilities page or workgroup, but I decided against it. I think there SHOULD be live streaming GA's with active chat rooms, or SOME form of online participation in GA's.

If OWS was doing teh 3 things you mentioned, most importantly- "becoming the society we want"...I'd be less sad.

A form of my proposal has been passed??? What specifically did it say, and what affect did it have?

Winning people over...? Admittedly, I have been unable to 'win over' anyone yet... Nor do I think I CAN win everyone over. I am what I am, and that isn't someone capable of great diplomacy... More's the pity.

If you don't like my Motion, as is, maybe you could amend it to make it more to your liking?

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

As you are more than 200 miles from the closest GA, I can't see how you would have much affinity for it in a geographical sense. Exactly why do you think a disabilities group would not be a good idea. I actually do think that the occupations are models of the kind of society we want to build and they would be moreso that way were they not under constant police threat.

I am not aware of a form of your proposal having been passed anywhere, but there are GAs everywhere. There is a tendency to exagerate their number but I suspect, conservatively there are at least 200 or so GAs around the nation.

Winning people over, it seems to me, is the nature of small d democratic politics. I can be undiplomatic myself sometimes (often, sometimes), but it's like anything else when we screw up and still know the right thing to do. We are all human. That is one of the great things about the occupations--how genuinely loving and forgiving they are. People come in with a line to sell or a hard point of view and in most instances that I've seen that all melts away pretty quickly.

I do not want to trivialize any strongly held points of view that you may have, but the fact is I run across people all the time who have a lot invested in this or that idea and I have my own ideas too. But I think the best thing I can do for those people and for OWS is not to buy into their ideas necessarily but rather help them figure out how they might become more engaged.

That is the main point it is not that this or that idea might save the movement (though it might) but the real salvation of the movement is getting people as engaged in it as they can be (which is probably more than they think they can be).

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I don't think there needs to be a 'disability' occupy group, but rather a larger outreach function for all 'online-only' protesters...

I ONLY want for us to create a system wherein the cream is allowe to rise to the top, so that we can make butter out of it.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

People with severe disabilities have a very good excuse why they can't participate in an open, public occupation. I may not be using my imagination adequately, but off hand I can't think of another group that would have any reason not to be in an open public occupation. Sure, many people work full time, but nearly everyone has at least two days a week off and if people are really interested in making a serious contribution to the occupation movement one of those days might be devoted to actually being at an occupation. I really don't think there is any substitute for that except in the relatively rare occasions when it is literally physically impossible for someone to participate directly.

I'd be against making it too easy for people to not participate in an actual live occupation.

By analogy, I was at Zuccotti Park last Saturday night. The weather was balmy for November, but there were very few overnight people there. Someone commented that in providing sleeping space for former occupiers, the churches were making it too easy and in that sense not really being supportive of the movement, that it was fine to provide shelter for people on a cold rainy evening, but doing so on a warm evening was actually a disservice to the movement.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

My disability slows me down, but I CAN and DO still get out and do stuff. That said, it isn't easy or cheap for me to do so.

It literally costs me about $25 per trip to the closest local Occupy camp, and I'm sure I am not alone. Rather than make it difficult to take part, it SHOULD be made 'easier' to do so.

Please re-think the barrier notion of making people 'prove' their dedication. I, and MANY others are dedicated, but lack of funding keeps is at bay.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

Of course we need many, many, many more GAs. Ideally there could be a GA in every county, in every municipality, in every neighborhood, on every block, in every nursing home, in every hospital, in every drug rehabilitation center, in every school and university, in every military barracks, in every jail and prison, in every work place. Once GAs are that widespread, then we can begin to talk about reconstructing society democratically from below. Meanwhile we need to organize.

If the closest GA is too far for someone to attend then to the extent it is possible they can start a GA closer to home. If it is too difficult for them to get down town in their own community, perhaps they could start a GA in their neigborhood or on their bloc. The GAs are the building blocs of the movement and making it easy for people not to attend a GA does not help to build the movement.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

*Hey RedJazz43,

Has a system of coordination developed to allow this Motion to trickle up yet?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

WIthout a system of coordination between all these GA's it would be pointless to set up hundreds of them...

One hand has no idea what the other is doing, and neither has the ability to contact the brain.

Ideally, we'd have district GA's that report to State GA's, that report to a centralized OWS GA, such that good ideas can 'work their way up', and be adopted by the national movement. This would require the OWS movement adopt "representation"...

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 2 years ago

A system of coordination will develop as GAs develop. Just as infrastructures at the various occupations evolved as the occupations themselves grew. As problems arose, solutions arose to solve them. There already is coordination among existing GAs sufficient to the present development of the movement. As the movement grows, so will coordination on an as need basis.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I think this is a wonderful idea!!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thank you, would you please help me by offering it up at the next GA you attend?

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 2 years ago

A true leader doesn't wait for permission, they just lead.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

In OWS "leaders" have and are mic checked into silence...

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 2 years ago

Then that makes them followers.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

So, how exactly was I supposed to overcome a mic check???

[-] 2 points by brendanyc (16) from New York, NY 2 years ago

So sorry it hasn't connected for you. i am still inspired, but i do worry that being (essentially) leaderless and without at least a few concrete 'planks' for our platform, it may wither away. not yet, though! we are still pressing on here in ny.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I DO wish the very best for OWS...I just wish it was more.

[-] 2 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

I'm at 11. Not because Occupy has problems like every other movement, but because they don't seem interested in fixing said problems.

[-] 2 points by username2011 (59) 2 years ago

Some of the movement's problems (and some proposals for solutions) are addressed here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-image-problem-jeopardizes-potential-support/#comment-448776

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thank you for the link...

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I'll give you a +10 stating the obvious: "...they don't seem interested in fixing said problems."

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[+] -6 points by Gawdoftruth (3) 2 years ago

Old hippie fuck I need your help. Need help making a t-shirt. We need to draw a picture of Zooccotti Park with a cage around it. Here are some ideas: Draw a hippie climbing the cage like a monkey and throwing shit. Draw a hippie rolling in mud and shit like a pig. Draw a hippies fucking like dogs. Draw a picture of a hippie eating peanuts like a big fucking elephant. Draw a hippie as a lazy fucking Ape doing nothing.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I am not "old hippie fuck"...at least not for several more years. :)

[-] 1 points by CrossingtheDivided (357) from Santa Ysabel, CA 2 years ago

Why are you and Occupyalife spamming this?

Help me understand what this is about; I've seen this nonsense posted elsewhere on this site . . .who started it, and why is it continuing!?

Wasn't funny the first time, if humor is what's intended.

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 2 years ago

Hi richard. Are you trolling again. Not spamming, but posing. Nice. I hope that helps the reputation of your site. Lol!

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

I kind of agree. When will we come inside enmasse and start to work on creative solutions for the problems we have brought into the streets. I hate to say it but maybe we need to form some sort of political party to run against the corrupt parties we have now. This party could embody the occupy principles of no lobbying and complete transparency. Maybe. Just sayin'.

[-] 3 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Political parties...how novel...

There are plenty of parties to choose from, and if you don't like any of them, start your own.

But KNOW that only election WINS grant you a steak in the ral game.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

I'm saying maybe if we had a real member of the 99% run. A real person not some tool who has been groomed for politics their whole life. Is this possible or is everyone corruptable? I don't know but maybe its worth a discussion.

[-] 3 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

MOST 3rd party candidates are NOT usually part of the "1%"...

[+] -4 points by Occupyalife (-7) 2 years ago

Old hippie fuck I need your help. Need help making a t-shirt. We need to draw a picture of Zooccotti Park with a cage around it. Here are some ideas: Draw a hippie climbing the cage like a monkey and throwing shit. Draw a hippie rolling in mud and shit like a pig. Draw a hippies fucking like dogs. Draw a picture of a hippie eating peanuts like a big fucking elephant. Draw a hippie as a lazy fucking Ape doing nothing.

[-] 3 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

That's a really constructive comment there occupyalife. I don't have to agree with what you say but at least say something coherent. This is just ignorant babble. www.thrivemovement.com

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

I don't want to be you when I wake up in the morning.

[-] 2 points by KVNLGN (154) 2 years ago

It is an idea that should at least be addressed. The problem is we don't have the proper communication network. The network would need to be trasparent and have a committee for different issues. I do not have the technical knowledge to set this type of site up but that would be the first step. Create a site, increase users and set up committees with goal oriented resolution.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 2 years ago

Sounds like something worth discussion.

[-] -1 points by theaveng (602) 2 years ago

Ye are welcome to join the Tea Parties. Or Campaign for Liberty. We are organized AND we've already succeeded in making some changes (we put people in office who vote "no" to bailouts or corporate welfare, and "no" to these stupid insane wars, and "no" to the Patriot Spying Act).

Perhaps you don't agree with everything these 2 groups stand for, but that's okay. Neither do I. The point is to not just to be heard, but also to make an impact/change in our government.

[-] 2 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

Tea Party is nowhere without funding from the 1%. OWS has power as the voice of the people.

[-] 0 points by theaveng (602) 2 years ago

The Tea Party arose out of 2008 grassroots efforts via an email campaign to oppose the Bush TARP bailout bill It had nothing to do with corporate donations, and in fact was opposed to corporate welfare (and still is).

OWS on the other hand was the birthchild of Adwatch.org which is a Soros-funded foundation.

[-] 1 points by iamausername (119) 2 years ago

yeah, cuz the tea party is JUST like OWS.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

I'm not American. Occupy was interesting because it had an international flavor. I'm Canadian and couldn't care less about the Tea Party. Sorry.

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

Me too. Why is it that American politics divide along the lines of reason on the one side and knee-jerk on the other? (I'm not entirely sure which side is which, but I tend to lean forward.) On your knees, Bill O'Reilly.

[-] -1 points by theaveng (602) 2 years ago

Well that's why I said "ye". I was talking to everyone, not just you.

Just curious: If you're Canadian, why do you care about Occupy anymore than you care about the Tea or Liberty protests? BTW there is a branch of CFL in Canada.

Maybe Occupy WS would have more of an impact if they acted like the folks in Athens (setting things on fire). On the other hand Athens is experiencing economic collapse. We certainly don't need that here.

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

Also Canadian. Right side, wrong side; OWS, Tea Party. At this point in time, the friends of the 1% do not entirely control politics stateside. Same is not true in Greece. If OWS can maintain its momentum. change can be effected. How long did we hear about the "silent majority" in the US, and who truly believes that the "silent majority" was representative? I believe that voice is finally heard. Canadian, Lithuanian, Usbekistan-stan-stan (sic. Herbert Cain), who cares? I'm reasonably sure that no OWS funding comes from the Coen brothers (no, not the "Fargo" Coens, the other guys.) This is an international issue. Globalisation has its costs. Reminds me of being told as a kid that technology would set us free. It seems that there are two options: OWS or disconnect. Where do you go for the latter?

[-] -2 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

"Well that's why I said "ye". I was talking to everyone, not just you."

Oops. My bad. Read too quickly.

"If you're Canadian, why do you care about Occupy anymore than you care about the Tea or Liberty protests?"

I don't know. Occupy sounded cooler. ;-)

"BTW there is a branch of CFL in Canada."

Ya, we have the Canadian Football League. It's almost like the NFL, but with some modifications in the rules. ;-)

"Maybe Occupy WS would have more of an impact if they acted like the folks in Athens (setting things on fire)."

Is that a call for violence?

[-] 0 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

I hope not...violence from OWS would be its end.

[-] 2 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

It is worth it... Get involved and help. I, too, am about an 8, but I do have hope.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I have been neck deep in OWS internet- livestreams and forum aplent for about 7 weeks...

My hope diminishes by the moment. :(

[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 2 years ago

Well at age 64 I was very excited to see OWS begin. I have highs and lows regarding OWS. I do wish it was more organized ...

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

"more orgaized"...+5

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16464) 21 hours ago So the consensus has spoken. Now it is time to acknowledge what the majority has decided, Submit, and move on!. We must be mature enough to admit defeat and regroup. Certainly mature enough not to let it cloud our opinion of this great progressive movement.

*ACTUALLY, if you'll look the overwhelming majority of comments here are both positive and supportive.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

*Why am I not allowed to make new threads?

[-] 1 points by nobnot (529) from Kapaa, HI 2 years ago

Not disappointed with ows at all.Instead of wanting a leader why don't you dry those eyes ,put the vagisil away and become one.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I tried. I was mic-checked into silence and told, "no leaders allowed".

You aren't 'disappointed' in the amount of good will that OWS has utterly wasted, and how they are still mired in the motionless slog that is the general consensus GA procedure model...???

Then I am disappointed in you too.

OWS is a ship without a rudder.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+10 for the song...

[-] 1 points by iamausername (119) 2 years ago

i feel like the movement would accomplish its goals better if it had them defined clearly, as a few crucial specific demands it could make.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+5...

Demands are useless with no ability to employ them.

The General Consensus model is not and has not worked.

[-] 1 points by EndGluttony (507) 2 years ago

You are clearly more intelligent and enlightened than the rest of us. I am sure you have the knowledge and skills to bring about significant change. So do it already. We are all waiting for you and your superior intellect to guide us.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I tried. I was mic-checked into silence, and told there were no leaders allowed.

[-] 1 points by EndGluttony (507) 2 years ago

So you agree that you are more intelligent and more enlightened than, maybe, everyone alive?

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I wouldn't compare myself to anyone. I have plans/suggestions, maybe you do too. Let's talk about them, and decide which to employ, and then DO IT.

Standing around disagreeing with everyone seems to me a waste of time and energy. Have you seen the Motion I offered?

[-] 1 points by jamesluxley (29) 2 years ago

PS. I think this leaderless stuff is symptomatic and I am sure the core of any Occupy around the world is controlled by secret agent. Do not believe me. Look up Common Purpose. http://jamesluxley.com/ and http://cpexposed.com - for people not seeing though this I give them -1.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Occupy SAYS it is leaderless, and refuses to allow 'outsiders' any opportunity to co-opt and attempt to lead any given occupy camp/group.

There ARE unaccountable leaders, who have their own agenda, and it is NOT working within the system.

[-] 1 points by jamesluxley (29) 2 years ago

I know personally that there are secret agent everywhere with or without OWS. It is a sick society. Police state x 100

[-] 2 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Has anyone else seen them, or is it just you...?

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Too many choices...I didn't know where to start...

[-] 1 points by jamesluxley (29) 2 years ago

I believe you make a very good point here. People want what is best and good but have no real power to do so. We all follow group. Standing on a corner waiting for Godot. Sad but true. I want it all and now but it take probably 1.000.000 Ghandi's to do what people all over the world wants namely real justice and real life.

I try too:

I, James Luxley, call for a United Occupy - if possible...

http://jamesluxley.com/unitedoccupy/

As did John Lennon...

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I checked out your site. While I greatly applaud your efforts, and wish you well if you would like to continue their pursuit. I'd like to recommend you offer your support to the Green Party.

They are politically viable, and can use good effective communicators like you.

We don't need to re-invent the wheel here, or come up with some new manifesto. If you want to have a say in how laws are drafted, you have to get into the Senate or Congress, PERIOD. To do that, you have to get elected, and to do that you need to belong to an 'organized' party.

I was down with the OWS movement, and I was fully loaded and on the bus...but it never went anywhere, and it never accomplished anything.

OWS had iconic imagery, and TONS of media coverage, but couldn't manage a single spokesperson or group of them to act as liaisons to the masses...

I was onboard, but I refused to sit among a bunch of naval gazers and waste my time.

[-] 1 points by jamesluxley (29) 2 years ago

I agree. Sounds just about right. A leader is good to command the band. Like in an orchestra. You know. I am too old to get into politics and I can only watch from the sideline. I have been there in the darkest pit and been stalked and harassed and I am not going to participate again only to be stupefied again. Sad but true. My website is my little contribution.

However I do believe politics is not the solution because behind the scenes are bigger money pulling in the direction nobody can control. The War-machine must be deed again and again and revolution is not easy like it was before. Old style revolution was "easy" but today everything is monitored and you can hardly fart without having to pay.

Best of winds.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

There's enough non-voter participation out there for a fisher of men, to get anyone elected...

I do wish you well in your endeavors for positive change. Have you read my OWS speech?

[-] 1 points by jamesluxley (29) 2 years ago

Noop, not seen your OWS speech. Link?

[-] 1 points by jamesluxley (29) 2 years ago

Very nice. Not sure I am liberal - actually I know I am now. I am human and do now like tags. But the content and intent is very good.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thanks for the drive-by.

[-] 1 points by infonomics (393) 2 years ago

About the same as you (8), but soon (sometime in March) I hope to take part in this movement in a more pragmatic way with the hope of producing more tangible results.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

How might I assist you in your endeavors?

Tangible results are ALL that I seek.

[-] 1 points by infonomics (393) 2 years ago

I have a website, a massive website that I will soon open to the public, to those who wish to change this country for the betterment of the 99%. I would give the links now but I do not wish to be judged on its current state: broken links, untidy and without a unified message. My deferral also owes much to a marketing gig for the site which I will explain later too.

My plans are so idealistic that when you learn of them, you will probably advise me to seek counseling. Here are some:

  • International news and blogging organization, eventually competing with Fox, CNN and every other platitudinous organization. I want writers to be the focal point, to be the rock stars, not necessarily the organization itself. I want to promote the stories of the average person, not Hollywood, the NFL, etc. I want writers to make money on my site and I want to brag about it.
  • First rate online educational site for lifetime education, not just a take it now or loose it policy. When people apply for a job, they will cite Infonomics as their continuing educational support.
  • I want to promote online direct democracy by overcoming the obstacles of education, tyranny of the majority, etc.
  • I want to promote a plural executive (if you wish, see Federalist Paper #70).
  • I want to establish a watchdog over corporate America, the Federal Government for stewardship and education (the masses).

I could go on and on but I must return to my marketing gig. Consider yourself my first invitee. I will contact you soon via your message box. If you only knew how long I have worked on this site and the underlying content, you would more fully understand my excitement.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Ring my bell, I'll answer the door...

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

Whoever bumped this BS post...Fuck Off!

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

No "bump" occurred. I responded to a retort I had missed.

By the way, go fuck yourself.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

Hey, Troll...I just did...too late!

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

I am not a troll but I am glad you are practicing self sex. At least there won't be any more of you as the result.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

Nothing is going to cure what ails this country unless action is taken...You won't fix this system by working with it...OWS is a start..People are just waking up..

On the self sex thing..I wish more people would "practice" and lay off having multiple births...7 billion people on the planet....How do you have freedom in this finite world? It's getting hard to do..

BTW ..I have only one child, a good person, not selfish and cares about others..I didn't raise him to be like that...He just is...

We'll need more of that....Rationale people who care...

Sorry I told you to f*ck Off...that was actually for another post...Which looked a lot like your post...

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

The only 'action' that needs to be taken to fix what is wrong with this country is to "Vote Smart, or not at all." We have a democratic republic wherein we GET the government we deserve. MILLIONS of men and women have fought and died for the country and government we have.

I am all in favor of fewer people mucking about, but you DID raise your child, to be what he/she is. No one just IS... We are ALL shaped by our environment and the people in it. If your child is a good person, it is likely that there was some example to follow. Be proud of your accomplishment.

Apology accepted, and thusly I apologize for suggesting you f-yourself.

What we need is for VOTERS to care enough to do a little research before they vote.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

I think it's a little bit nature/nurture as far as the kid goes..We just love him...Some things are just innate others are learned..

On voting, well that's another issue, and although our government was established as a representative republic with some democratic processes (voting)..It simply is not that way anymore..We live in a corporatocracy....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy

Yes millions of people have died for the idea of what this country once was People should get people very angry...Freedom is being limited more and more as we go on fighting for "freedom"..

We need a more informed electorate, but we will also need people who are willing to pick up pitchforks and torches every once and a while..

For the next election and maybe for any subsequent elections, the best thing to do is not vote incumbent...

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Representative Republic...?

Would the opposite of that be a democratic democracy, and how would they be different?

Either way both sound like a double negative to me.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 2 years ago

No...

[-] 1 points by TimMcGraw (50) 2 years ago

10.. don't worry Romney will step into office and clean out all the dems

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Bwaaaaa Haaaaaa Haaaaaaa!!!

Mark my words, "Willard" will lose by double digits in the general election.

No one wants to elect a guy to the Presidency who makes $53,000 a day.

[-] 1 points by ThunderclapNewman (1083) from Nanty Glo, PA 2 years ago

I'm not disappointed. I engaged in OWS because of the possibilities. This movement is still in it's infancy. Let's all just wait and see what happens this Spring and through the Summer. I think better days are ahead for the movement esp. if we can exercise a little patience with one another. Keep the faith!

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Personally, I've seen little evidence that this movement is capable of evolution.

It seems stuck in the muck and mire of unaccountable leadership, general consensus GA's, and and inability to unify behind ANY achievable goal(s).

I have exercised a GREAT deal of patients, but look what that got me: https://www.occupydallasga.org/node/105

[-] 1 points by Menton (26) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I give the movement a '15'. The movement has started.... that the most important. It is not pretty. It is poor and ordinary. The disparity in income/wealth says it all. Calling the 1% "job creators" is a joke....and the 1% still want the 99% to have less. (Take a look at 3rd world countries). Over time, the OWS will grow, get healthier, stronger and fashionable. Give it a chance. This is about building a new Rome.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

What immediate 'reachable' goals to you think OWS could put in its sights.

[-] 1 points by kayak69 (57) from West Sand Lake, NY 2 years ago

I am very disappointed (8). Please see my post "Don't Let It Die."

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Got a link handy?

[-] 1 points by JimBeam (152) 2 years ago

Exact reason why 67% of the real 99% won't back this movement.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

"We ARE the 32%...!"

Doesn't really ring, does it?

That said, you are 100% correct, MOST Americans don't support OWS.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by owstag (508) 2 years ago

12.

Good post, but the "ways"/"days" rhyming is a bit much.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

It is a line from the FFA creed... :)

[-] 1 points by OurTimes2011 (377) from Arlington, VA 2 years ago

THIS should make you sad, and then mad...

48 percent of all Americans are either considered to be "low income" or are living in poverty.

57 percent of all children in the United States are living in homes that are either considered to be "low income" or impoverished.

77 percent of all U.S. small businesses do not plan to hire any more workers.

There are fewer payroll jobs in the United States today than there were back in 2000 even though we have added 30 million extra people to the population since then.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

That'll change...sooner or later...

[-] 1 points by naturesmeds (25) 2 years ago

0 - I'm disappointed in the rest of population of the world. OWS is doing ok, considering what we are against. The world should have risen up before I was born, 53 years ago. Mankind sucks! Its a history of 'king of the hill'. Beam me up, scotty! I'm ready for old faithful to blow her top and wipe the planet clean! Now, do YOU feel better? OK then, spread the occupy music found on youtube. Sing along, at least you'll feel better.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I feel the same... an "8".

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 2 years ago

Ask not what OWS can do for you, but what you can do for OWS.

Unless your disappointment is wedded to a plan for direct action, all you are doing in navel-gazing and wasting everyone's time. Get over yourself and get active.

(Although, honestly odds are better you are a paid False Flag agent provocateur....in which case you can frankly go fuck yourself).

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I've never wanted or asked for anything from OWS, except that they consider my suggestions...

I am not a false flag anything, I'm just a normal supporter who's had more than one bad experience.

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 2 years ago

Yep, False Flag. Go away troll.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Suck it, buddy...

I am here trying to make a positive difference: https://www.occupydallasga.org/node/105

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 2 years ago

Ooooh....you filled out online form. Sheesh, why didn't you say so up front NO FALSE FLAG could EVER fill out an ONLINE FORM. Boy, shucks was I ever wr........wait a minute. It's a fucking online suggestion box.

Like I said, you're definitely a False Flag operator. go fuck yourself.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

???

Seriously???

'I' am a "false flag"...???

Here's my Blog: http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com/

I am the dude in the wheelchair, passing out fliers...

[-] 1 points by buphiloman (840) 2 years ago

You have a blog, well, that settles it. NOBODY with a BLOG could ever be a False Flag operative....

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Did you watch the video...?

If I am a false flag, then EVERYONE is.

[-] 1 points by EndGluttony (507) 2 years ago

If you're smarter and better than the rest of us, which obviously you think you are, then lead us.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I was told repeatedly "No leaders allowed."

[-] 1 points by Brandon37 (372) 2 years ago

When will people admit that liberalism and conservatism is still very much a regional phenomenon in the US? You were in Dallas hoping to find the pinnacle of progressive activism.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

'I' am a progressive liberal, and I was born and raised in North Texas.

We are rare, but we have manage to find a few cracks to take root in...

[-] 1 points by Brandon37 (372) 2 years ago

It like OK, only not quite as conservative. Small little sects. One up around Tulsa and some to the NW. Other than that, it's all red. In fact we don't have a single blue county.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Austin has some blue...and Denton I am sure holds several liberal seats.

'I' ran as a progressive liberal, and got stomped... :)

Still, I thought that out of all of Dallas, that the group that I'd meet would be 'doers'...activists. These folk seem more interested in preserving some new 'consensus' revolution, rather than using it to promote the best ideas among us.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

10 completely useless. But however they are wasting a GREAT OPPORTUNITY for positive change this country does need. But OWS'ers don't seem to want that change. And it is very hard to figure out what they want. If we decided to give in to all their demands, what are they? I really don't know, more free stuff from a bigger gov that punishes those that "make it" get the "American Dream" and succeed.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

See, I haven't seen any of that "gimmie gimmie gimmie" stuff...

That said, do you think anyone could "make it" or get the "American Dream", alone...? You can't gather wealth in a vacuum, and you can't protect it by yourself. If you have succeeded in the real game of monopoly, congrats. But you owe the system for allowing you such an opportunity. And the more yo make, the more you owe the system, because you are using more of it more often, and you require more police protection.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

ATTENTION Moderators:

I lost my password, how do I recover it?

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I sent an e-mail to Administrators about my password recovery, but no one has sent me anything back.

[-] 1 points by Xirristi (5) from Barcelona, CT 2 years ago

OWS and the like in Europe all suffer from a basic handycap: they seek a flurry of social/political goals that can be and are already being pursued by other means. This AWESOME opportunity should never be spent performing a cacophony of all-the-social-causes-put-together. We need to think what is least divisive to really make the 99% join in, and we need to think what would be the most effective. My answer to that is: demanding and achieving a higher level of direct democracy. This goal is as unifying as can be and it would lead to a means of channeling and fighting for all other goals. Please go to realtimedemocracy.wordpress.com and VOTE for direct democracy. Then, try locally to convince people that this is the best and most sensible strategy to move forward. Thank you.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Direct democracy doesn't work...

People don't vote to raise taxes. Please research California's problems right now for a direct example.

[-] 1 points by WarmItUp (301) 2 years ago

Yeah lets have a leader and then we can crucify them because they don't do exactly what we say. Or we could have a true democracy where the 99% of peoples voices actually get heard and policies are put in place by the people not a single megalomaniac. If you want change it helps to listen rather than always speaking. It helps to have patience and listen to the voices of those especially the ones you disagree with. i AM 100% SATISFIED WITH OWS. Democracy is supposed to be slow and very messy it is supposed to be drawn out to allow for debate of issues. Not just one person with the most money pushing through policy overnight.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I disagree with just about everything you said...

One, we don't need 'a' leader. OWS needs good spokes people to begin making appearances on the talking head shows.

Two, we HAVE 'direct democracy' already. They are called ballot initiatives, and the last one that took place in my County, LESS than 1/7 of register voters showed up to cast a vote.

Three, I 'listened' to everything Occupy Dallas had to say. Once 'I' tried to be heard, I was mic checked into silence. Occupy Dallas, HAD a public forum, not unlike this one. They eliminated it because it SHOWED the failure(s) of the OD camp and organizers.

Four, if you are happy with OWS, then I feel a little bad for you. This movement has no leader, organizational structure, unified message, and completely LACKS the tools to create policy change.

Lastly, Democracy isn't 'supposed' to be slow or messy. Ideally it uses the systems available to enact the will of the people... What OWS is now, is a bunch of anti-representative democracy, revolutionaries, bent on anarchy.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Please, do not form your view of this movement based on what is happening in Dallas. There is much hope here. You might consider moving to someplace with more likeminded people. I'm serious.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I've been to Denton and Fort Worth, too.

I'm also quite addicted to the live streaming from all over.

The thing 'I' want to see is organization and 'accountability'.

AFTER that, I want some sort of plan for political policies and planks begin to emerge...

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Under what political party would you like to see them emerge? The Democrats, the Republicans, or some third party? That is the rub.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think the Green Party is the best co-opt option...

Their platform is beyond liberal, and would best be described as "progressive".

I prefer this to creating a new party, because the Green Party is 'established', and already has candidates in 'most' races.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

I think that's right philosophically. There I am in entire agreement. In practice, at least at the presidential level, I think it would just assure a Republican victory - hence the difficulty. I have posted on this question extensively before. We have to find means that don't play into our opponents hands. Their may be local elections in places where a Green Party cantidate could actually win, given the current state of affairs politically. There I say Run them. Nationally I think we need to step very carefully to make sure things don't get even worse. Thanks for this post because it highlights some very complex problems we face. One thing I have been advocating is that we got professional political organizers to help us to negotioate these difficulties. That, I think, is a necessity, or our energy will eventually flag due to lack of tangible results.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

You HAVE a liberal executive, what we NEED are 'progressive' legislatures, which is where I think OWS should focus its attention...

What OWS is lacking is any sense of how to change public policy, because they seek to change the system of voting, rather than find and elect good representatives...

[-] 1 points by Bystander (41) from Sissonville, WV 2 years ago

There is no reason to be disappointed in OWS. It is just beginning to take hold. Hopefully it will inspire many more people to step forward and do their part to save our country, in whatever way they can. It will take time and dedication.

This could be the start of a genuine change for the better. But only because ordinary people get involved.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

YOU might 'believe' there's no reason to be disappointed, but 'I' can't help but be disheartened...

I'll believe this is the beginning of something just as soon as I see 'bad' leaders and organizers get REMOVED from their positions of power.

ZERO accountability makes Johnny a corrupt, abusive, and ineffective leader.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

If you expect to change the world, and are ready to call it quits after two months, of which you have probably not been involved for more than one, and see Dallas as the epicenter of higher consciouness that represents this movement, then your absence will probably not be keenly felt.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

First, I ain't quitting... Second, I've been 'involved' for about 2 months now, and while Dallas has treated me poorly (http://occupywallst.org/forum/inspired-by-occupy-dallas/), I have seen no difference in any of the camps I've visited, or live streaming GA's I've watched.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

Well, I think there are other things going on other than just people being in the streets, and I'm you aren't quitting. We must all have patience and commitmant and continue to give out input. Nothing like this has even been attempted before.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Did you check out that other post?

THE thing that is so disheartening is not only that there's no leaders, but that those that ARE in charge of websites and planning are NOT accountable for their shortcomings.

Occupy Dallas totally eliminated their public forum, because it was rife negative feedback and complaints about the actions taken in and around camp, and the failures of current leadership. At first, they just deleted posts they didn't approve of, but as their deficiencies rose, so did the complaints... So they simply took the forum down...hundreds of posts and response washed away.

Unelected, unaccountable leadership, bent on silencing criticism.

Sound familiar at all?

My complaints about this outright attack on free speech were met with this response from DBCOOPA (occupyops@gmail.com):

"...your dribble called "Call to Action" (http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com/2010/10/call-to-action.html) is the most horribly written thing I've ever read. I'm not kidding. I refrain from calling it a blog because, frankly, I don't think it meets the low standards set by the blogging community. Your grammar is truly the most atrocious I've ever seen. It's not just that every sentence is unreadable, it appears as if you took an idea that could easily be conveyed in a few simple words (our government needs to be more accountable for their actions) and managed to stretch it across the longest paragraph I've ever written. This is not hyperbole. I almost feel bad saying so. The only way I can reconcile the existence of this writing with my perception of life in the universe and still hope for the continuation of our species is to convince myself you must be a nine year old--or possibly a very intelligent chimpanzee. ..."

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (9780) 2 years ago

You are up agains somet serious odds in Dallas. I applaud you for even making the effort there. I'm sure I don't need to point out to you that Dallas is the very bastion of the most fanatic, powerful, and stupid element of corporate vested interest. Ever consider that there are probably five infiltrators to every one real OWSer in Dallas?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, I don't know about all that but those in charge of things there aren't interested in accomplishing anything but anarchy, revolution, trying to get arrested.

My Motion about Constitutional Shielding and direct action, single message marches was mic checked into silence.

If you have the time, please send "DBCOOPA" occupyops@gmail.com and those in charge of occupydallas.org an e-mail of disapproval...

[-] 1 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 2 years ago

You people are unbelievable. The vast majority within the movement agrees with the notion of "no leaders" and by a process of broad (if not 100%) consensus has decided to abide no leaders. You're going against the entire process of direct democracy and consensus, which is what this movement is all about.

[-] 1 points by rroll1952 (8) 2 years ago

"vast majority' here represents a couple of hundred people at ga's every day.they are not building a massive movement that can really creare change.ITS A DIWINDLING ,SMALL GROUP...NOT REACHING OUT AND BUILDING A MOVEMENT.HOW ARE THE MILLIONS NECESSARY TO CHANGE THE COUNTRY- GOING TO OPERATE WITH CONCENSUS ???? its a bunch of idealists having a well-intentioned but ineffective circle jerk.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+10...as painful as it was to read, this stone cold reality sinks in a bit more each day.

Did you see the Ben & Jerry Press Club Conference?

[-] 1 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 2 years ago

It is creating a massive movement. Mentions of "income inequality" in the news have gone up by 500%. There are like 1000 occupations in the states alone, and it is WORLDWIDE. That is HUGE growth. You aren't paying attention.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Direct Democracy des NOT work, in real world applications... At least it doesn't produce any better results than representative democracy.

Case and point, we already HAVE direct democracy. They are called ballot initiatives, and in my county we just had one regarding our local community college. The college is literally falling apart, the classrooms are too small, and the nursing building is in need of serious renovations. Out of the 23,000 registered voters, guess how many showed up, for this "direct democracy" opportunity?

A mere 3,000 cast ballots, and the majority of them voted AGAINST funding out local community college...

The OWS movement's adherence to this leaderless principle is what is holding them back. It is NOT a positive attribute.

[-] 1 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 2 years ago

"Direct Democracy des NOT work, in real world applications"

Bullshit. Over-arching statements like that are the enemy of progress. If you wanted it to work in your town, the people that actually care about the school would have to get out and talk to others about why it was important to vote.

A change in attitude is needed by everyone in this country. Leaders got us into this colossal global mess. The people need to stand up and take responsibility, if they are truly responsible adults like they claim to be. The failure of direct democracy in your town was a failure of the community, not a failure of the idea.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

First, it wasn't my 'town'... It was the entire county, and the problem isn't restricted to my county. Americans don't vote, and those who do, do a shit job.

Our voters make BAD decisions about the 'leaders' they elect, and you or OWS wants them voting on specific issues???

What makes you think they'll 'change' their behavior???

Americans have been able to vote for decades, you'd think we'd be good at it by now, but the reality is that most people stay home on election day. Only 2/3 of us are even register whom qualify, and only HALF of those show up, if there's a federal election.

I can name MANY examples of direct democracy failures in America. You are a pie-in-the-sky DREAMER if you think direct democracy has any chance of making things better, here.

We need better voters, not different issues to vote on.

[-] 1 points by MyHeartSpits (448) 2 years ago

LOL! If there are failures of direct democracy, the failures of our democratic republic are FAR greater.

What is your solution? Disallowing some people to vote, because they don't vote well? You say yourself that they are not "good" voters. Here's the thing, though, issues cannot be corrupted - people can. If everyone votes on an issue, or law, you have NO right to dispute the result. Your complaint was that only 3k voted out of all the people who could vote. Are you saying not enough people voted, or they voted badly? I'm not sure you even know what you're complaining about. YOU are a dreamer holding on to a dead corpse for dear life. Direct democracy and local government/economy is the future. The smartest economists of this age agree with me.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I am saying 2 things:

-One, people don't CARE enough to vote

&

-Two, those who vote, do so based on how that vote will directly affect them.

Getting people to vote to RAISE their own taxes just doesn't work. And this was the reason for electing representatives to do the work, that 'we' refuse to do.

My 'solution' is to begin telling people to "Vote Smart, or not at all". People NEED to be fully informed about candidates and issues before voting at all. While I am not in favor of poll tests, I am in favor of trying to convince lazy under informed voters to be even more lazy and stay home. The phrase, "Vote Smart, or not at all" is intended to gently encourage everyone to do a better job voting, or count themselves out.

I've heard lots of OWS protesters scream they want direct democracy, and this will cause more people to take part. I can give you scores of examples of how this simply isn't true.

[-] 1 points by fgdesign (52) 2 years ago

BTW I found this surprisingly accurate and fair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street

Perhaps this can be the first stop for people who insist they are "confused" by OWS?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Now that's interesting...

*But I don't the think the criticism section is complete.

[-] 1 points by hangingk (5) 2 years ago

If you want real change you need to do something that will result in real action such as getting a candidate to support your idea or starting a petition. Please support my petition to tax wallstreet and get all your friends to sign it as well vs writing an article crying about how helpless you are.

https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/apply-1-sales-tax-all-stock-trades/MvZMMp0k?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+5 for "...do something that will result in real action..."

[-] 1 points by joe100 (306) 2 years ago

I am disappointed there are no leaders.

I am disappointed the huge great unification created is being wasted.

I am disappointed the huge great power of consensus is being wasted.

But there is hope. After the winter people may regroup.

We need leaders. I want to run to be one of the leaders of Occupy - but no one cares.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well...how do we go about changing that?

[-] 1 points by joe100 (306) 2 years ago

The right media may change that. And a great intellectual proof might help. I started working on it already. and when its done, I will send you, KoA of TX, a personal message - and if those that support such a view tried to come up with good media, maybe we could get the idea to be more recognized and accepted at its face value instead of people just disregarding it altogether. I worked on it tonight already, but it needs more work. Then others can add their viewpoint.

Maybe, just maybe we can get there....

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Just a suggestion, instead of being a 'leader' try to get the role of 'rotating spokesperson'...

I look forward to reading more.

[-] 1 points by joe100 (306) 2 years ago

Got something a lot better - all these people hate the word "leader", so got something else... it's coming... a new way.... but yes, rotating is what's its all about....

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

What's wrong with electing or appointing "rotating spokespeople"...?

[-] 1 points by joe100 (306) 2 years ago

Nothing - I think "rotating" IS THE ANSWER - I mean there is more to add to it. I think there is something better than "spokesperson" though... and certainly not "leader", it's the OWS rotating "navigator". It's still being worked on... The new way will be introduced by a New Yorker at OWS this weekend from what I heard.... It's a discovery of a new way, and not someone's single idea...

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

First we don't need a 'singular' whatever...we need a series of them, and effective ones should stay and the less effective ones should be replaced.

[-] 1 points by preoccupiedinmidwest (1) 2 years ago

9 hoping for -8 I guess that I am feeling pretty much the same way as the original poster. I joined a local occupy in the Mid-West (Iowa) hoping that we could do something being that we are the first state to caucus. Well we have not done much here. I stopped going to the General Assemblies since it was just process process process... And people that knew how to work the process got to do all the talking and everyone else got a triangle and were told they were off topic.
From there things just got worse, I actually had someone say to me "NO!!! I am going to put a stop to that right now...You cannot vote that way! Then in the next breath I was reminded about "My" vibes.
So it was then that I stopped going.... I wanted to take action. I wanted to do something. I wanted our occupation to have an impact! But I don't think that it will if things like that continue.
Sorry for venting, but I think the occupy movement needs to be about more than just endless GAs that do little but waste time. I don't think that consensus is the way to go.... Sadly, I think that there is a time for it but when it comes to action it is merely the tyranny of a small minority.
I would hate to say it but I think that the Tea Party had the right idea.... List three or four things around which to rally, then from there those who wanted to support it could. If not this is not the movement for you and you could start your own or wait for someone else to start it.

I feel like the Occupy Movement is sort of stuck in a funk... It did was it set out to do more or less, get people together and raise awareness that the vast majority of people were left out of the political and economic system... The next move should be, (in my humble opinion)

1)We will not support a system that only looks out for the uber wealthy and powerful, meaning we will not pay taxes, we will not support the businesses who benefit from the status quo. 2) We will no longer obey the ministry of truth! We will take direct action against media companies that say "recession fears", "McDonalds hiring blitz...", GOP front runner --anyone but Romney or Paul.... boycott or public protest these media conglomerates who talk out of both sides of their mouths! 3) We will vote with our vote, shopping is not democracy! You vote with your vote not your dollars! We will vote for the candidate we want by secret ballot, filling in the name of who we want! We will not be fooled into thinking that voting for someone outside of the political inner circle is throwing away our vote!
4) Each occupation will address the unique needs in its own community and/or state. Rocketing cost of public education, police brutality, gmo farming, unclean water... ---This would make me happy happy happy! And charge my batteries for the long slog ahead, for which I would be willing to freeze my rear end off! LET'S GO

[-] 1 points by rroll1952 (8) 2 years ago

I suggest getting active with Move-On ,and the AMERICAN DREAM MOVEMENT,as well as OWS.Those groups are capable of organizing the massive movement we need.OWS has been a great spark,and catalyst...but is not getting to the next level.Move-On and American Dream Movement- working with the LABOR COUNCIL and STUDENT groups- have organized the largest and most sucessfull events here in nyc.OWS is not doing real outreach,not building a coalition that is necessary to create a mass movement.They are-according to friends participating daily- totally paranoid about being "co-opted" by other groups.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Vent away friend... :)

Thank you for you comments.

+5 for "Vote with your vote."

[-] 1 points by fwankie123 (490) from Immokalee, FL 2 years ago

Here's what will happen but it will take time. Remember, it took us 200 years to get here.

"Occupy Congress!"

To affect Real and DRAMATIC change we must eventually take over the levers of political power by putting together a slate of candidates that are honest people drawn from the occupy movement's ranks and elect a lot of them to Congress.

The first order of business is to take big money out of federal politics.

Pass the Fair Elections Now Act (S. 750 and H.R. 1404). A law where political candidates for federal office would raise a large number of small contributions from their communities in order to qualify for Fair Elections funding. Contributions are limited to $100.00. Strictly voluntary by the candidate to avoid legal issues.

Require new FCC regulations granting 100% FREE TV air time to all federal candidates who obtain sufficient petition signatures and/or votes to get on the ballot and participate in the primaries and/or electoral process.

End Political Corruption - End the "revolving door" of politicians and their staffs from ever becoming becoming lobbyists and prohibit all federal public employees, officers, officials from ever being employed by any corporation, individual or business that they specifically regulated while in office.

Clean Up Wall St. - Break up the biggest banks. Reenact Glass-Steagall. Abolish credit default swaps. Derivatives must be traded on transparent exchanges. Ban "flash" trading. Tax all Wall St. financial transactions at 1%. Damp down speculation and raise $400 billion a year.

Solve The Housing Crisis - Congress can and should modify the bankruptcy laws to allow primary residence mortgages to be eligible for restructuring by making banks lower the principal balance on all underwater mortgages to current market value and refinancing these loans to current market interest rates.

Create A Fair Federal Tax Code - The marginal tax rate ought to be raised to 50 percent on income between $500,000 and $5 million, 60 percent on income between $5 million and $15 million, and 70 percent on income over $15 million. There should be a 2 percent annual surtax on all fortunes over $7 million. The estate tax should be 55 percent and kicks in after $5 million. Capital gains should be taxed at 35 percent. End the home mortgage deduction on first homes over $1 million. End the home mortgage deduction on all second homes. Corporations should be taxed by a variable amount based on the percentage of their payroll going to US workers. A small business employing 100% US workers should be taxed somewhere between 15-20% while a company that has completely shifted its production overseas should be in the 50% range. Eliminate corporate loopholes, unfair tax breaks, exemptions and deductions, subsidies, end offshore tax haven abuse. Expatriation of capital should be subject to a maximum tax-rate penalty with violation considered a felony act.

Make Health Care Affordable And Accessible To All - Medicare For All. Allow Medicare to purchase drugs directly. Give the Medicare Payment Advisory Commission (MEDPAC) more authority to drive down medical costs. End fee-for-service in medical care.

End The Wars - Reduce the military budget by half ($330 billion).

End The Police State - Repeal the Patriot Act

Clean The Air - EPA to STRICTLY enforce the Clean Air Act.

Create Jobs Now - A ten-year federal program that involves a New Works Progress Administration (WPA) and Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) to create millions of jobs rebuilding America that includes infrastructure banks run by engineers, not politicians to extricate ourselves from the Great Recession now and increase productivity later.

Create Jobs Later - To create long term quality jobs, the nation needs a massive Manhattan-style project involving government, business and unions with the goal of leading the world in alternative energy innovation and production.

Invest In Education - Begin with the federal government paying tuition and fees for all students, part and full time, who are enrolled in two-year public institutions in the United States.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

That's a mouthful...

+20

Thank you, I hope that others read this, and take heed.

[-] 1 points by NewPoliticalParty (2) 2 years ago

Go to Facebook Seach "Let's Start a New Political Party" Forum to Discuss Starting a New Party Just Started Last Night It's time to get leader to the movement and challenge politicians with the only thing they care about..the prospect of losing their jobs.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Co-opt the Green Party, all the work's already been done...

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 2 years ago

Occupy looks like a movement. It's messy. It goes around in circles. It loses focus on anything important. It gets bogged down in trivialities.

That's what movements look like.

I've been reading on the abolitionist movement. It was a mess, too. But it gradually delegitmized slavery. Britain did it. The U.S. shed a lot of blood to do it. But it got done.

Along the way, there were arguments about everything. Churches splintered over it. Families split. I don't mean pro-slave vs. abolitionist. I mean within the abolitionist movement.

People are just like that. But things can get done anyway. Keep looking at the big goals, and moving toward them. The rest is all noise.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Indeed, but that was 'yesterday'. Today we have the greatest media distribution tools ever conceived, and are thusly more connected than ever...

Sadly, these tools are not now being employed to their maximum effect, AND the movement itself has outrightly resisted "leadership" or "representation" of any kind.

Rather than stand on the shoulders of the political giants that brought us here, OWS seeks to tear down the system so many have fought and indeed bled for. I can't help but see this as a real deficiency.

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 2 years ago

It's clunky, but it may still work. Past movements did, and people haven't changed even though technology has. Only time will tell.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, my point was that NEVER before have we been able to communicate and network with other individuals, like we can now.

Yet, sites like occupydallas.org have ELIMINATED their public forum...!

Why???

[-] 2 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

THIS is my biggest beef with OWS...

They aren't leaderless...the leaders are just unaccountable.

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

because this is the headquater of corpration they brain wash the people real good

[-] 2 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Americans quite willingly FREQUENTLY subject themselves to 'programming'...

[-] 1 points by zoom6000 (430) from St Petersburg, FL 2 years ago

They destroyed the process of normall thinking and they did good job through there media., that is way American people very confuse when it come to common sense

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

But how do you 'fix' what people refuse to believe is broken?

[-] 1 points by Evabodine (18) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I feel the same way. I think there is a small amount of good being done-- tangibly-- but it IS creating a LOT of awareness, and increased participation in our government, which is invaluable.

I created a FB page, to gather people who really want to support the idea of Occupy, without the agendas and negativity that's crept in. Here's the page link, it's called "Occupy Life: Reclaiming America":

http://www.facebook.com/OccupyingLife

Also, I created a music video with a song a friend of mine wrote, and paired it with the footage I got on Oct. 15th.-- Hope it inspires someone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCoBoivyi8I&hd=1

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

:)

Thank you for the creations.

Interested in 'tangible change'...? Have you read my Motion, and will you help me push it forward?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-motion-i-seek-a-2nd/

[-] 1 points by Evabodine (18) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I just put my response on your thread. I'm sorry to say, I don't see how your "motion" will help...

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well...instead of re-typing it, I'll just give you the link to 'how' I think my Motion will help : http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-motion-i-seek-a-2nd/#comment-456814

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

right now OWS is just a moment, we have a chance to turn it into a movement, lets not let this chance pass us buy.

if OWS will not try to fix the problems then it is time for YOU (yes you reading this) to step up and owne this moment and help turn it into a movement with a direction and a clear cause, like for example nationalizing the banks so the US citizens can receive the interest monies that banks now collect. We need a place to put forward ideas for consideration as to be accepted as policy or not.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thanks, but... ALL of my effort thus far to "step up and own this movement", has been met with outright resistance.

I've been mic checked into silence, had posts on forums deleted, and I can't count the e-ails I've sent and gotten no response from.

Nationalizing banks? Check out this Jon Stewart video: http://www.thedailyshow.com/#tool_tip_0 It will make you want to pull your hair out, to understand the depth of corruption within banks and the Fed.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

I am glad to see you have not given up yet. DON'T. OWS NEEDS MANY PEOPLE FROM MANY WALKS OF LIFE IT NEEDS 99% OF US. I understand that the depths of corruption in banks is head spinning. Makes me want to convert all my cash to caned food. As I have no faith in the dollar any more, it IS just paper and a little bit of mis placed faith. Money is a barter unit and should be converted to goods as quick as possible. checked your link and am sharing another with you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKRKZqdgBXg&feature=related

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Too late, I've already seen those... :)

I've been putting my money in wine. The longer you keep it, the better it gets, and its value only ever goes up. It is also more fun to consume than green beans.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

I would not want to hold much money right now it is not holding its value very well and every indication is that the dollar will lose 1/2 of its buying power in the next few years. I would store food, and perhaps wine too.... and anything a person could use after the TOTAL collapse of the American society and US banking.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I don't think things will ever 'totally collapse"... I could see a regionalization, such that systems become more localized.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

I think most people also believe that the US can not 'totally collapse" into a third world country level either. But it could happen in only a month or so. If electric power was turned off or oil was restricted severely, I estimate that within 2 months we could lose 50% of our population to food riots, and within 6 months we could be reduced to 10% of the population we have today. And the reduction would come at the hands of your fellow citizens. It takes time to transition to a different style of food production and storage. In the mean time population levels would go into free fall and we would have to worry about other countries invading us.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I've seen first hand entire communities go black, with no electricity, and no ability to 'pump' the gas they had. It was only a matter of hours before inventive people handed together to start to re-build the world the once knew.

America will NEVER be invaded or occupied by a foreign army, because our citizens are armed.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

America will NEVER be invaded or occupied by a foreign army, because our citizens are armed. I hope you are right. after a month with no electricity I would only have canned food no more frozen food, that would be a big blow to my survival chances. People do pull together, until the riots begin and then we know what happens next. I have seen blackouts where the stores were open and people standing in lines in the dark stores waiting to check out, power stayed out for 4 days.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I've never seen food riots, in America, nor would I expect to.

I HAVE seen individuals attempt to take more than their fair share, and then be chastised immediately by the group.

In times of want and woe, I've seen more unity than chaos.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

in Japan I saw people who did not loot after the earthquake, after Katrina I saw lines of people looting. There were looters taking more than their fair share of loot its true. By why didn't we see the same in Japan? Let a disaster happen and the bottom feeders come quickly. When my place was involved in a national disaster I was looted before I could return to my home. Gota love these Americans.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I wouldn't say looting is the same as food riots... It is a fine line, but a distinction nonetheless.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

I promise you food riots will occur and so will wide spread looting.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I won't say it can't or won't happen, I'll just say, I've just seen no evidence that it will.

I think that far too many understand that this is a "united We stand, divided We fall, world." When the fit hits the shan, We will unite. IMHO

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 2 years ago

if and when all heck breaks loose and the gov. is no longer working for whatever reason, people will become hungry because society is no longer able to deliver truck loads of food to stores, after that point, all bets are off. Would I sit and starve to death while I knew you had a 100 cans of food and I had a gun? when people get desperate I know what they do. I spent some time with no food in my belly, I have thought this thru.

[-] 1 points by ClaraCoCo (4) 2 years ago

Ten. I think this movement is going nowhere. I want it to work, but lack of leadership and a coherent message kills it.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

AGREED... +10

[-] 1 points by rootz (11) 2 years ago

If you need a "leader" that tells you "the truth", guide you and tells you what you have to do then you haven't understood why the things are so wrong, precisely because of sheep people like you.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

1000 people all yelling their own message at one person simply can't be heard.

If they elect a single representative and decide on the message(s), that 'leader' can address THOUSANDS and be heard easily.

[-] 1 points by rroll1952 (8) 2 years ago

I totally agree.We can only win by building a huge coalition.We can't expect OWS to lead it.its too tiny,and sadly too close minded.I was in the march from Union Sq.to Zucotti in NY tonite.It was pathetic.Because OWS doesn't want to be "CO-OPTED",it is floundering by them selves.They could have easily added to the very sucessfull labor crowd tonite,and embellished the agenda,and the total no's.instead,they were just intent in launching a poorly co-ord.tiny march of their own-down to the past-Zuccotti Pasrk.Who cares ???? That begining was fantastic ,and inspired the world...but this is chapter 2 now.The park had become anoose around the movement's neck...seedy,unsafe...obcessed w/ playing new age house rather than changing the world. Enough....lets move on.Time to occupy "Occupy" w/ leaders,and a focused agenda.Lets all descend on the GA one nite,and vote for leaders and a new plan !

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I can't tell you how often I've heard your comments heralded by so many...

+10 for "time to occupy "Occupy" w/leaders, and a focused agenda"...

Personally, I'd like to see OWS co-opt the Green Party, and get neck deep in our election process.

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

Are you sure that you don't want OWS to do what you want to do? What will you do? (Apology for the quote.) Personally, I plan to watch, & comment on the shortcomings of OWS. On a scale of 1-10, how do you rate your alternative?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I am not sure what you mean... I want OWS to accomplish positive change. The best tool I could come up with was to offer this Motion:

"I move that all OWS Protests be composed of 3 elements- Protesters, Constitutional Shields (A cardboard or paper shield embossed with the U.S. Constitution on one side, and a blank space on the other for the day's march message.), and an Action (Trash Pick-up, Street Sweeping, or Volunteer Brigade). Such that each march accomplishes 3 things- makes the world a cleaner place, carries a unified message, and protects protesters with the Constitution."

I stop well short therein of telling people 'what' to do, but rather I hoped the Motion would give OWS a vehicle for the messages 'they' choose to march under or behind.

I am a direct action kind of guy, and I'd MUCH rather we did something, rather than nothing. So, I'd rate my alternative a "10"...but I am biased. :)

[-] 1 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

So fill the blank space.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

That's pretty tough when my local Occupy group sends me messages like this:

By DBCOOPA (occupyops@gmail.com) of Occupy Dallas- "...your dribble called "Call to Action" (http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com/2010/10/call-to-action.html) is the most horribly written thing I've ever read. I'm not kidding. I refrain from calling it a blog because, frankly, I don't think it meets the low standards set by the blogging community. Your grammar is truly the most atrocious I've ever seen. It's not just that every sentence is unreadable, it appears as if you took an idea that could easily be conveyed in a few simple words (our government needs to be more accountable for their actions) and managed to stretch it across the longest paragraph I've ever written. This is not hyperbole. I almost feel bad saying so. The only way I can reconcile the existence of this writing with my perception of life in the universe and still hope for the continuation of our species is to convince myself you must be a nine year old--or possibly a very intelligent chimpanzee. ..."

Pretty inspiring huh...

[-] 1 points by Arwen (15) from Cortland, NY 2 years ago

When I see a vast sea of people moving across a highway or a vast sea of people massing in various areas with "bat signals" shining on buildings, I think this movement has great possibilities. The thing is to keep it going and to make it grow. For every person marching there is probably at least a hundred or more wishing they were there. Tap into this. People are watching and hoping. Please be the clever and creative resisters we all hope you are.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+10...for "Please be the clever and creative resisters we all hope you are."...

I hope that those within the heart of this movement 'hear' you.

[-] 1 points by DoctorX (11) 2 years ago

I have created a thread informing people whereby the OWS can produce a message while staying leaderless, so the situation is not yet entirely hopeless.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think the "leaderless" thing itself is a deficiency...

[-] 1 points by madcat (47) 2 years ago

Here's my take on the whole thing. What I see are allot of people who are, to put it mildly, pissed off about world-wide economic inequality and environmental damage. There's quite a few different solutions being proposed, with varying degrees of feasibility, and some are simply protesting without providing any solution at all. And that in tern is pissing a bunch of other people off, since they feel occupy is just a bunch of noise with no clear central message. But isn't that what politicians are paid to do? Figure out the solutions to problems? I think it's just our job to let them know something is wrong.

[-] 2 points by BeSmallBeLoud (35) from Youbou, BC 2 years ago

Yeah, people want to be heard. I think you may be on to something. Let's motivate the Steve Jobs of the world to create something truly revolutionary instead of dissipating their energy in the name of consumerism.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Let's motivate 'the American Voter' so that we can create something truly revolutionary like a "democratic republic" that represents a majority of the population...'cause we ain't there yet.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+4...

While I agree that it IS our job to let them know something is wrong, it is also our job to tell them what it is we WANT.

Their job is literally to 'represent' us. This is a dmeocratic republic.

If the officials you elect hear nothing from you, about 'how' they are to represent you, then they aren't 'representing' you at all...

[-] 1 points by madcat (47) 2 years ago

Yeah ... But there's allot of different people with allot of different ideas. Political leaders are certainly supposed to listen and do their best to make decisions they feel are what the majority of people want, but in the end, they are the ones who have to come to a final decision regarding the issues we face.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

If your elected representatives are NOT 'representing you and your stances'...PLEASE, by all means STOP voting for them.

[-] 1 points by madcat (47) 2 years ago

Oh, and to answer your question, I'll say 2

[-] 1 points by bigbangbilly (594) 2 years ago

I give tactics and strategies however it is their choice to listen.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Have they...?

What sort of things have you suggested, if you don't mind my asking?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I LOVED the first idea...I give that one a +20.

Not a fan however of pirate radio signals. I don't think you need the FCC all up in your business, trust me. I think the more law abiding, THE BETTER. "Assemble" on public property, forever... But please don't steal or otherwise abuse the public trust, it will only diminish your credibility.

[-] 1 points by CanEd (78) from Edmonton, AB 2 years ago

I think it's impressive that we can ever muster a movement at this point. I'd thought we were too far gone. Anyway, we're basically screwed and OWS will go down in history as the last hopeless defense of government of the people.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I hesistate to call OWS an earnest 'movement'...because it isn't 'moving'...

We got people out into the streets, but failed to give them anything to do. I don't see OWS going down in history as anything but "occupiers", who failed to congeal around a unifying message or purpose.

*We have already government by the people... WE have a democratic republic, already. The problem is that uninformed voter apathy has given us unimaginable corruption. Our problems have been democratically induced.

[-] 1 points by CanEd (78) from Edmonton, AB 2 years ago

I certainly don't disagree about voter apathy, but it isn't just apathy. Our apathy has allowed the system to become so corrupt that we are past the point when voting can make any difference. In elections, they have the power.

So how do we kill apathy? As we speak it is being reinforced by all kinds of distractions. We are bombarded with trivial culture such that most people just don't really care about politics or the state of their country, and of the ones who do care, most are misdirected by the media into believing that everything will be fine, or that the source of our problems is just one party and said problems can actually still be fixed by voting.

With the OWS movement dies my hope for the future of our society.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Here's the thing about democracy- the People will rise up and use it, when they deem it necessary. If they are happy 'enough' with the way things are, they'll bypass the voting booth on the way to their caramel mocha grande capachino. When things go south, voter activism rises.

ANY political movement has as its sole duty, to both inform potential voters about the state of our union, AND encourage them to vote in a manner that will make things better.

OWS 'seems' to me disinterested in the democratic process, now in place...

They want to change or alter they system and make some sort of sans-representatives, 'direct democracy'. Without making better, more informed, ACTIVE voters, it doesn't matter what or who people are voting on. In EVERY county in Texas, we have ballot initiatives, wherein people get to vote DIRECTLY on issues. Here in Cooke County, we got to decide whether or not we would fully fund an upgrade to our local community college through a bond. Out of 23,000 potential voters, guess how many showed up??? This IS "direct democracy", just like OWS wants, that they SAY will fix everything...

Out of 23,000 potential voters 3,000 showed up, AND decided against the bond...insuring that our local community college will cease growth, and its ability to provide services will be diminshed.

When the buildings finally fall down, and students are forced to pay 10X the tuition at a university, then maybe voters will take a more active role in the decision...

This is a democratic republic, we GET the government we deserve. :(

[-] 1 points by OWSWhat (66) 2 years ago

Do not worry about OWS making you sad much longer, it is already yesterdays news

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think there's still news to make...

[-] 1 points by shadow9 (1) 2 years ago

Read Gene Sharp's how to run a revolution manual. It is used worldwide. From Dictatorship to Democracy is the name.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

But we already HAVE democracy...

We don't need a different system, we need better voters.

[-] 1 points by WakeUp2011 (12) 2 years ago

Awakening as many others as possible is going to make a difference. It may take more hardship set upon us for more people to rise up. And spreading the truth is crucial to creating the world we want to see. We need to wake up as many people as we can to get real change. Those that don't want to wake up can stay asleep. Keep spreading the word. Here's a start..

http://youtu.be/iRyjzCa7_AE

Research. Educate. Grow Awareness.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I like the video... Is it yours?

Here's an essay I wrote: http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com/2010/10/call-to-action.html

Same sort of stuff, different package.

Keep up the good work!

[-] 1 points by WakeUp2011 (12) 2 years ago

Yes. Very nice essay you have there... and thanks.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thank You for saying so. :)

[-] 1 points by squarerootofzero (81) 2 years ago

Popular opinion is a feeble tyrant when compared to our own individual opinion. What you think about yourself is what determines, or better indicates, your fate. What we believe today to be absolute truth could rise like smoke in the air and be a falsehood tomorrow. True knowledge is to be able to know what you know, but also to recognize that you do not know what you do not know. Too many people walk high above the clouds, but do not know where the ground is underneath their feet. Be careful or you will fall flat on your face.

Keep believing in yourself and put no faith into outside forces that you CAN NOT control then you will not need to be disappointed. It is all about perspective. Bring your message and do not attach meaning to others. The main thing is people are talking and that is the flame that can ignite change. WE are the "Change we can believe in," not useless political slogans.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+5 for "WE are the change we can believe in."

THAT is why I included the Action in my Motion.

We have to become the example, WE have to be the change we seek.

Have you read my Motion, yet?

[-] 1 points by squarerootofzero (81) 2 years ago

Yes, it seems like a great idea. Be prepared though. The State is not armed with honesty, but only physical strength. They can only appeal to your bodily senses and never to your mind. They will, like spiteful boys, abuse you like a dog. As long as this is a non-violent occupation it is already having an impact.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I agree that the non-violent occupation is having an impact...what 'I' want is for OWS to become the difference maker.

If alll that we did weas make the world a cleaner place, wouldn't that be a real victory? Moreover, wouldn't people 'join' such a movement, upon SEEING the real change it was having in the world?

[-] 1 points by circlingheart (25) 2 years ago

I realize that the Occupiers of Austin, San Francisco, Oakland, Portland and some others recognize the atrocities committed against the Indigenous communities of Turtle Island. The Occupy movement, as a whole, should follow suit. Otherwise, it is just a business venture.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

It COULD be a business venture, and begin to make money, allowing a greater distribution of its message, but this hasn't happened because some don't believe in operating within the current system. Some don't even want to collect money at all. Some want to take all the money collected, and turn it into bitcoins (look it up).

What we have now, is unifying for the sake of Occupation, sans a message.

[-] 1 points by circlingheart (25) 2 years ago

OK. Unifying is a good start. I suppose I'm one of those that see the system as the source of the problems, and the need to break from the system to identify some good solutions. That's not to say that I won't "lower" myself to using some of the system's tools to help illuminate and communicate.

Bitcoins, I'll look it up.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

OWS is a 'hot' issue right now. That they are NOT using this opportunity to create or support political candidates, and selling OWS t-shirts & bumper stickers is a deficiency...IMHO.

[-] 1 points by circlingheart (25) 2 years ago

I'm at about 5. OWS, as far as I can tell, doesn't even address social or environmental justice, it's all about money. But if it can undermine the Empire's economic base, that's a start worth supporting. Fixing the problems begins with breaking the machine that is causing the problems.

I don't want liberal political change, I want "civilized" people to realize that they are destroying all the other Creations, and by doing so, making their own lives miserable.

I don't want institutional education, not even if its free. I don't want to be someone's slave, making plastic garbage. I don't to be master of some little concrete domain. I don't want a third corrupt party to run the destructive system.

I want People to Respect All Life, not try to own it.

Breaking the Economic pillar of the system might buy the Earth some time.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

OWS should be willing and able to take a stance on issues... We are against this, for that, and have no stance on the other.

I think your "People Should Respect All Life, not try to own it"...slogan needs some work. No offense intended :) How about..."Responsible Stewardship, not Destructive Ownership". I don't know, but I LIKE where you are going...

Have you seen my Motion yet?

[-] 1 points by circlingheart (25) 2 years ago

Thanks KofA! I wasn't really trying to come up with a slogan, but I like the one you responded with.

Where can I find your motion? I'm sorry, I'm a bit new here.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Here's the Motion: "I move that all OWS Protests be composed of 3 elements- Protesters, Constitutional Shields (A cardboard or paper shield embossed with the U.S. Constitution on one side, and a blank space on the other for the day's march message.), and an Action (Trash Pick-up, Street Sweeping, or Volunteer Brigade). Such that each march accomplishes 3 things- makes the world a cleaner place, carries a unified message, and protects protesters with the Constitution."

It has its own thread titled "OWS Motion, I seek a second"

[-] 1 points by username2011 (59) 2 years ago

Sorry if this duplicates. First attempt does not appear to have worked: I think you might appreciate like-minded comments and suggestions for a more effective movement here: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/ows-image-problem-jeopardizes-potential-support/

[-] 1 points by username2011 (59) 2 years ago

I think you might find some like-minded comments (and some suggestions for creating a more effective movement) in this post: http://www.occupywallst.org/forum/ows-image-problem-jeopardizes-potential-support/

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thank you for the link, both times. :)

[-] 1 points by KVNLGN (154) 2 years ago

8, no progress being made and no attempts to get organized around all of the issues. The education and venting process that started over the last few months was great but now the next steps are not being taken. Maybe, we are responsible for not taking action ourselves...For not setting up a true communication network that revolves around resolution. At the end of the day, if they can't work in an organized fashion then we should. If we decide to point fingers at their inefficiency or unwillingness then we are just as guilty for the lack of progress.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

How do 'we' go about organizing?

[-] 2 points by KVNLGN (154) 2 years ago

First step is to get a tech savvy individual to establish a fine-tuned website.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Good grief...NO KIDDING, right???

But that would require no less than a dozen people, held accoutnalbe for what happens there. This whole leaderless thing doesn't mean 'no one is in charge', it means no one is accountable for what the do...

[-] 1 points by Dutchess (499) 2 years ago

I agree.

But the reason is...its too big.

Any change needs to happen at the local level.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I've never heard of movments failing "becaue they were too big"...

Disorganization, sans a unified message, and infighting...SURE.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Someone evidently thought that some of the big bank movements were failing and "they were too big"

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I wouldn't begin to compare corproations to political movements...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Then you might want to consider the British in America during the Revolutionary War as a political movement that failed because it was too big. (cumbersome, ill prepared, and they wore red coats). Please excuse any comparison that any reader might make from my comment (cumbersome, ill prepared, and they wore red coats) as it might relate to the OWS movement being cumbersome=leaderless yet carrying a lot of baggage, ill prepared=still with no clearly agreed upon agenda, and red coats=easily visible in the public parks.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, Britian still exists, as our ally...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

In Britian, NOT in America.

For the most part, every nation we have gone to official "war" with remains our ally. A very interesting comparision to the anti-war groups that claim our only purpose is to gain their resources, etc.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think we glossed over my point of 'disorganization' being the cause of a movement's failure...

The British Empire didn't fail because it was too big, it failed because it lacked proper organization.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Very questionable conclusion in my opinion, which I have no http: to support me at this time. But somehow, it seems that it was too big and too organized to fight the battle they faced. Marching in a formation line was very organized but it was overly organized against an "army" that was quite mobile and new the land.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Isn't bad planning a symptom of bad organization?

Had scouts been directly in contact with generals, maybe they would have developed better technique, than fighting a losing battle over and over again?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

NO, you can be the best organized operation in the world and if you let loose a bad plan you are probably going to fail. SEE http:the new coke.

We will wait awhile to see how Burger King does with its' new fries. Tried one yet?? Really a well organized operation there with a well organized ad campaign, but we will see how their plan works out with the general public.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Okay I'll agree bad plan = bad plan, regardless of organization.

That said, I still don't believe an oversized movement is doomed for failure. Rather poor planning, a lack of organization, and no accountable leadership are, 'I believe', the beginning of the end for any movement.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Totally agree. BUT you will have to argue that to thousands of leaders herein, because you have no one or small group to convince otherwise.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

:) Well, I am very glad we could reach agreement.

Care to read an essay I wrote? http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com/2010/10/call-to-action.html

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Hope it is OK, I printed it off and will retire to an easy chair to read it now. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 2 years ago

So, in your motion, you only proposed that others take action to divide themselves into three categories??

I'm sorry, but I would also ignore you. I'm not saying it's a bad idea but you need to take action in order to make it happen. Perhaps start a working group of your peers so it seems as if you're taking your own idea seriously. Also, it ignores the burden of work being faced by all the currently existing working groups(people that worked hard for their ideas) and people currently working in committees that may be too busy to be split up into the groups you mentioned.

I'll rate OWS a 3 as far as disappointment and I'll rate you an 8.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I don't understand...

My Motion doesn't 'divide' anyone or anything into 3 catgories. It moves, that each march be made up of 3 components.

As a quadraplegic, I am taking all the 'action' I can to make this thing happen.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 2 years ago

I apologize if I seem rude.

I reread your proposal and understand you weren't trying to "divide" the protesters into three groups.

I like your ideas but I'm not sure why you would need to get GA consensus in order to make it happen.

In regards to the constitutional shields, I don't think you need a consensus to allow people to make and carry a cardboard sign of the constitution. In fact, I think it's a good enough idea that all you need to do is suggest it to others (outside GA and perhaps while they're making posters) and it will likely happen because it is just a good idea for a protest sign.

As for the cleanup crew, I think it's a great idea but on a voluntary basis. I don't think you need GA consensus to find volunteers willing to join a cleanup crew, nor do I think anyone would stop them from cleaning during the protests.

Do you understand what I'm saying??

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The whole point behind my Motion is to unify the protesters in message, an action, while blanket-ly protecting everyone...

A group of protesters all shouting or carrying 'different messages' delivers no message at all. A few people picking up trash wouldn't accomplish what a whole march could do...

The POINT is that OWS should be accomplishing something, 'directly' affect real change, RATHER than hoping individuals will do it on their own...

[-] 0 points by jbell78 (152) 2 years ago

you should probably try actually READING POSTS before you go straight to making an ass out of yourself and looking like an idiot.

[-] 1 points by TLydon007 (1278) 2 years ago

What in god's name are you talking about??

[-] 1 points by VERUM (108) 2 years ago

OWS is only months old... literally a newborn accessing it's surroundings.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

How long SHOULD it take to create a platform, elect spokespeople, and 'begin' to take steps toward political change?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

With countless committees and other groups, INDEFINITELY.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Personally I think OWS has wasted a good deal of time, energy, and good will...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Two months max. After that, people tend to doze off.

Even newborns soon learn a lot about their surroundings. It doesn't take them very long at all to make a decision about how to get food or their diaper changed, and it does not involve a lot of committees and elections of any kind. See posts by VERUM and Kof A.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Got any VERUM OP's, handy?

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Only tums - need one??

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I just sent VERUM a request for a list of his greatest hits...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

I think I saw them:'

  1. One billy club to the side of the head
  2. A knee in the gut.
  3. Some really tight pair of handcuffs and a little discomfort.
[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

:)

Well, you're funny.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

If you have children, you know that it does not take very long for a newborn to access it's surroundings - find the food and figure out how to get their diaper changed, even in the darkest of nights.

OWS has not even learned that they are going to be evicted from the parks they occupy. They think they will just stay there and get different RESULTS from the same actions in other locations.

Go outside and stick your wet tongue on a freezing pump handle. If you have to do that more than once to see the future, you need to move on - at least try sticking something else wet on the pump handle.

[-] 1 points by andrewinsandiego (26) from La Mesa, CA 2 years ago

Personally, I've always thought of Occupy as the beginning of something else. I'll be disappointed if that something else doesn't emerge. But I also think that it doesn't matter whether we feel disappointed with Occupy or not, in a sense, because the crisis/crises that Occupy is responding to aren't going away. I think we've entered a new historical era, in which politics is less an expression of moral proclivities and more a matter of keeping the lights on, and I think this is going to be clearer to more and more people as time passes. I hope there will be movements to mobilize those people because I don't think the world can afford despair (yeah, I did mean that as a pun). In other words, you should feel disappointed but it would be dangerous, maybe even self indulgent, to feel discouraged.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

...entered a new historical era...?

Well, we certainly have a lot more media, delivered to us almost instantly...this is certainly a new and different thing.

Political Movements certainly have the greatest 'chance' to be heard...I just wish we had something productive to say.

[-] 1 points by Tinhorn (285) 2 years ago

Well said and the main reason this movement will never amount to more than .1% of the 99%.

[-] 1 points by iamausername (119) 2 years ago

Pretty sure the 99% isnt a direct reference to numbers, so much as economics, but i could be wrong

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

It COULD though...

This movement COULD be more, do more, and BECOME the example...

OWS could begin to make a real difference in and to the world...

It ISN'T NOW...but it COULD.

[-] 0 points by Tinhorn (285) 2 years ago

It absolutly could. The original basic message of the movement is one I actually agree with. The problem is it has been allowed to be hijacked by groups and people who have there own agenda in direct contardiction to what I believe the group originally was formed to change.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

What was the original message, again?

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 2 years ago

me--11. I started fully supportive but am actually opposed to its methods now and increasingly violent official messages. We closed our local Occupy camp when we recognized the escalation.
The factors they are 'against' are still valid. But they block places that corrupt banks don't care about and never go to, which makes as much sense as fishing in a restroom bathroom sink. You're only keeping the average joe from washing his hands, and Mr. Banker has an executive washroom and never knows you're even there. And the violent official Occupy messages? we decided they weren't for us.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I can understand your sentiments. Thank you for your comment.

The messages I've tried desparately to convey are simple, direct, and efficient: "End the Wars, Tax the Rich", "Free Meds, End the Fed", and my personal favorite "Vote Smart, or not at all."

[-] 1 points by ramous (765) from Wabash, IN 2 years ago

KofA, your message is quite different than the official Occupy messages. The newest official Occupy slogan is 'The Only Solution is World Revolution'. And all the official imagery is bloodthirsty. Occupy has great people, but the movement is not being shy that its taking them toward violence.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/deconstructing-occupy-a-message-within-a-message/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/occupy-imagery-why-cant-it-be-new/

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Excuse me, those are specific March Mesages examples...

What does "world revolution" mean?

We HAVE the greatest form of government the world has ever known. SADLY, we get the representatives we deserve.

[-] 1 points by ANameToBeProudOf (1) 2 years ago

like a 6; I'm just not feeling it anymore. OWS just seems more superficial now

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

What is ONE thing it could do to lower your 6 by half?

[-] 1 points by buik2 (66) 2 years ago

if something makes me sad, i normally avoid it.

why torture yourself and us with your disillusionment?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, it didn't start off this way. I guess you could say I've grown, and CONTINUE to grow both disheartened and saddened by OWS...

[-] 1 points by barb (835) 2 years ago

Its only been a couple of months since this started and everyone here expects them to have all the solutions for the numerous problems our young generation is facing today. There are many players, big money, manipulation of laws, etc and it is a tangled mess to unravel it.
The problems we all face today did not emerge overnight, it took years to accomplish the goals of the elite to shrink the middleclass, move our jobs out of this country, steal from the American public, reduce our freedoms, etc. while at the same time lie to us the entire time that their intentions were patriotic.

You don't expect our leaders to come up with a solution in 2 months do you, so why do you expect that of OWS?

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

You don't have to re-invent the wheel, or anything...

Rally around a half dozen slogan solutions, and start appointing spokespeople to begin talking about them on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, and 'especially' C-Span. JOIN another political party, and start finding candidates to carry your policies to Congress.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Does 10 mean most disappointed? I'm a very reluctant 9.
I agree, this movement won't go anywhere with the current leadership and structure and lack of focus. But I do give OWS credit for starting alot of good discussion. Thats it though.

You might be interested in this.
https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

They have some good ideas for making changes working with and through government. More focus. Less anarchy. Its small, but growing.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

10 would indeed be "all the way disappointed"...

I've seen that website, but can't say I like that delegates can't be elected or appointed as candidates. It's still an attempt to limit good spokespeople from doing their work. I DO like that someone is headed in the right direction...I just wish we could start to see spokespeople emerge, instead of letting violence be the story...

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I read/heard they were going to do some write in candidates for 2012. Do you know of any revolution that didn't involve violence?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Just throw your support behind 3rd party Congressional and Senatoral candidates...

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Thats an option too. Someone else I really like is Gov Buddy Roemer. He relies only on individual contributions. Sadly, hardly anyone knows him because of that. He can't even get into the debates. I'm not sure how that works. Probably corrupted somehow like everything else in the political process!

http://www.buddyroemer.com/

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Don't concern yourselves with the executive branch, the legislature is where you have the best chance of electing representatives to turn messages into public policy.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Good point! I still like Buddy though.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

President Obama isn't gonna veto liberal legislation, but we NEED more progressives in both the House and the Senate.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Where I'm at, we have one pretty firmly entrenched Dem in the Senate. My District is Repub and has been from many years. There has been some redistricting which should work in favor of the Dems. Plus he's a freshman and not well liked by the middle of the constituency so far. There are 2 pretty strong Dem candidates who have announced so far. I'll probably go to work volunteering on one of those as I get a better feel. But I think the District has a good chance of turning Dem. I really cannot wait for next Nov. But I am seriously thinking about campaigning for Buddy Roemer too. Not that he has any real chance - but who knows! If nothing else, maybe he helps to move the debate about campaign finance. But the most important thing is that I agree with him in principle on so many issues that is why I think it is important to get out there for him too.

Of course theres always the third party candidates like you said! I have to wait on see on that.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

OWS should begin supporting Green Party Congressional Candidates...

Supporting 3rd party Presidential candidates is a risky game. Had Nader NOT been in the race, Gore would have beaten Bush by double digits. If Ron Lawl runs as a 3rd party candidate this go, he'll hand the election to Obama on a platter.

Congressional and Senatoral runs are another matter altogether. The Tea Party really paved the way for incumbant ousting, and if OWS began pushing the Green Party, we could well have a real influence on public policy...

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I see what you mean. In that case, I hope Ron Paul runs. I supported Obama before.

I think the Republicans are their own worst enemies though. I think they'll lose big and their downfall will be an inside job. They are on the wrong side of everything. The only thing they have is money. No small thing, but even that can't solve all of their problems. At least I hope not! I think that the Republican ptb pushed Herman Cain to the forefront in order to prop up Romney. I think they thought when Cain disintegrates, the base would be happy to flock to Romney. I think that is backfiring on them. Now they just all look extremely foolish. They have no choice but Romney, and they aren't happy about it. Which could affect turnout in the general??

I'll have to look into my Green Party where I'm at. What you say makes sense.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

What will flip the deck is if Dr. Paul wins Iowa, outright... If Ron Lawl is the Republican nominee, he COULD well win the election against Obama, because he'd easily capture the 3rd party vote. That said, if he did win, I think we'd most definitely see another Republican run as a 3rd party candidate, again insuring another term for President Obama.

How one votes in Congressional and Senatoral races has way more impact than an executive branch vote.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

The youtube was fascinating and creepy at the same time. I admire your courage. You were out numbered but you didn't flinch. That is very brave of you!

I found it interesting everything you said. However, while I think apathy is clearly a problem, and people are not always educated enough about the issues. I think the corruption due to the money in the political process is a far worse problem. So even if we all vote on an educated basis, for the person we think has the best of intentions in serving us, that person still is beholden to the monied influence that got him/her elected. Money speaks too loudly.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thank you for watching my video. Do you mind me asking what you found 'creepy'? I am an outspoken very opinionated person, I've been standing up to opponents my whole life. Well, sitting down for the last half ;)

I won't deny tha money is 'part' of our problem, and we should probably adopt some form of public financing of elections, and try to force some kind of 'equality' among candidates campaigning. That said, in the end, it will still come down to people voting smart... Votesmart.org should be required reading for voters, people should watch c-span before voting.

My solution is all about creating better, more informed voters, AND discouraging the uninformed or underinformed from voting- "Vote SMART, or not at all."

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I mean the other people were creepy! Not you.

I agree. People should try to be as informed as possible. And the reality is it is easier to do that today than ever before. So there really is no excuse. C-span though?? Ugh. I'd rather watch the paint dry! I don't think I could bring myself. : )

[-] 1 points by radiorevolution (3) 2 years ago

Check out this alternative type of activism, it should cheer you up1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cs9KMUPUQk

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, the lyrics kicked ass...and I loved the subtitles...

+5 :)

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 2 years ago

Im at 0

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Really...you aren't the least bit disappointed, in ANY aspect of the movement...???

Aren't you the least bit disappointed in the movement's failure to inspire supporters like me? Or is it my fault, somehow, if I lack confidence in OWS?

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 2 years ago

I think for the way this movement has run, it has had remarkable success. I have visited two encampments and talked to people who are staying at many more. And these experiences have all been eye-opening.

I am sorry that the movement hasn't been able to inspire and attract everyone. There are "problems" with the movement, but my over-all attitude towards and appreciation for the movement grows everyday. I am inspired to learn for myself and to engage with people and their opinions in ways which I have not before. It is a truly awakening experience to watch this movement unfold. There is imperfection in perfection. And this is still a young movement. We must allow for more time and keep giving more energy wherever we can.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I just read that OWS newest motto is "The only solution is world revolution"...

Calling for "revolution", where you already have the greatest system of government the world has ever known, is STUPID beyond words.

My apologies for my strong words, but I see no perfection... I've seen no organization, but most importantly, I've seen no accountability for bad decisions.

The movement isn't young anymore, and it NEEDS to grow into something productive, or it will wither and die.

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 2 years ago

The movement is very young compared to other non-violent movements around the world. I said this yesterday, but Gandhi's campaign took 19 years to complete. 2 1/2 months is still nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Non-violence is not quick and it is not easy. No, not all of the people who are participating are adhering strictly to the non-violent principle. But as a general movement, there is a large effort to remain non-violent.

Any adherence to former normal principles of "revolution" are out the window if this movement wants to succeed, and those doing work organizing understand this.

"Revolution" doesn't have to mean violence, disorder, chaos, etc. (though undoubtedly at some point or another these will most likely occur due to an inability to adapt)

And besides, just because this might be the "greatest system of gov't the world has ever seen," doesn't mean that it is working for the majority of people anymore, and I mean that globally as well as locally.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Oh I AGREE that the current system isn't "working" for most people...

However, I think this is because uninformed apathetic voters have given us corrupt officials who are beholden to lobbyists and NOT voters.

Did you know that only 2/3 of us are registered, that qualify? And of those who are registered, only half show up and vote in national elections. If there is no national election, state and local election fare far worse.

I've heard hundreds complain that they no longer want "representative" democracy, and rather seek "direct" democracy. *News Flash: We already HAVE it.

In EVERY county, there are ballot initiatives, opportunities for citizens to have a direct say in how their local governments operates. Here in my home county, we had a ballot initiative wherein the voters got to decide whether or not they'd fund the local community college's renovations by issuing a bond. Of the 23,000 registered voters take a guess how many took part in "direct" democracy?

3,000 people showed up, AND they decided that it was a bad idea to repair buildings literally falling into the ground.

So not only did voters not care, but those who did failed to do the 'right' thing, because it meant raising taxes...

We live in a representative democracy, and thus we get the government we deserve.

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 2 years ago

Yeah, it is really disappointing. But I think that a lot of current voter apathy is caused by previous voter apathy. There is the idea floating around that "it doesn't matter if you vote." As long as that idea is mainstream, less and less people will vote. We are a sheep-herd people, regardless of what anyone thinks about themselves.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, my point is we don't need a better election system, we need better more active voters...

Democracy only works, if citizens do.

[-] 1 points by HarryCrew07 (433) 2 years ago

I agree to a large extent. I just think in order to have more active voters, we need a new discourse about our voting system. People have to believe that they matter in order for them to show up at the poles. (regardless of whether or not they do actually matter at the poles)

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

One of the slogans I've been trying to pass on is "Vote Smart, or not at all."

Whenever I talk politics with anyone, I always tell them about votesmart.org

It is an AWESOME site for any would-be voter.

[-] 1 points by julianzs (147) 2 years ago

OWS is an expression of the will of the 99%. It flows and ebbs until it fills the world and transforms it. Find your courage and persist!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I am couragous...but brick walls suck as something to hit your head against.

[-] 1 points by barkway (2) 2 years ago

10 here as well, and yes, I'm "involved." If you want to learn where Occupy is failing, refer to The Democratic Revolutionary Handbook. Those countries that employed its tactics succeeded. OWS is far too disjointed and disorganized...a rudderless ship.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

"...a ruddeless ship" +10 for noticing and saying,

[-] 1 points by opensociety4us (914) from Norwalk, CT 2 years ago

OWS is opening doors and I am grateful to the movement for that.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I have dor closed in my face, e-mails deleted, and had posts deleted from Occupy sites...

While I am grateful that the movement exists, I am indeed saddened by the results it's produced.

[-] 1 points by Peretyatkov (241) from город Пенза, Пензенская область 2 years ago
[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+10...

Thank you for the links.

[-] 1 points by kingscrosssection (314) 2 years ago

I'm at a 10. These people don;t even know what they want. All they know is that people say something is wrong and the follow. Granted there are some problems but nothing is being achieved.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

What number would it take, for you to leave the movement?

[-] 1 points by kingscrosssection (314) 2 years ago

A couple million please.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

That isn't what I was asking... :)

[-] 1 points by kingscrosssection (314) 2 years ago

I'm already at 10 in anger. But if you brought it down to around 2 I'd be fine.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I am not 'angry'...just disappointed...and sad.

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 2 years ago

If you people want to fix the problems through the political atmosphere

THEN JOIN THE GREEN PARTY

We're just here to point at where the problems are

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+10 for "JOIN THE GREEN PARTY"...

The Green Party already has a great organizational struture, candidates, and an agenda most OWS'ers can agree with.

[-] 0 points by theaveng (602) 2 years ago

Ridiculous. I belong to a third party as well (LP) but I'm Not naive enough to think we'll ever win. In the whole history of the U.S. only the top two parties have ever won the seat of the presidency.

The most a third party has ever won was one quarter of the seats in Congress, and that was way back in the 1800s when the country was splintering (and then civil war broke out). Third parties have only won 2 or 3 seats since then... basically nothing.

[-] 1 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 2 years ago

So, they'll still steal votes.

Just do it.

[-] 1 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

OWS has set itself up as the equivalent of the Waste Management DUMP. Everyone knows where it is, but no one has any idea about what it in it.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

AGREED.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Its an onion farm of confusion.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

More like a lemming race on an enclosed track...

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

lol. You have to see this. Jump in and add to our analogies! I'm sure there must be something to add about onion breath! You'll know when you read it.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-list-of-accomplishments/#comment-448039

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I left my funny hat at the club...

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I am not dissapointed at all. Something inside you must have clicked.. in order for you to have actually gone out to attend an occupy event. I would suggest to focus on that spark. What if, we all posses a tiny piece of the puzzle? If being at the occupy event did not motivate you further, perhaps your piece is doing something else.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, I wasn't old enough to be around for the 60's peace protests, so when this 'liberal' movement got going, I wanted in on it. I thought THESE will truly be my people, like-minded folk whom I could really identify with...

Sadly, I was told my piece didn't fit.

Have you seen the Motion, I've been trying to get passed? I'd really appreciate your cooperation in moving it forward.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

I did see it. I really liked it. What if you went out there and did this yourself? It is much easier said then done.. but at least your voice will be heard. I think the idea of people going out there doing their own thing is so cool. It takes guts though.. I give you and anyone else who attends these protests a whole lot of credit.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I am doing what I can. At the moment I am building a dozen of these to send out to several occupy camps.

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

That's great!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Thanks, I am off now to try and 'find' the Occupy Dallas folk...

[-] 1 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 2 years ago

Big hug and thanks for all you do

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well, they weren't where they were supposed to be...another 2 hour trip wasted. :(

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 2 years ago

How can a sprout disappoint?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

If it were 'slowing growing' up and outward, each day becoming a more impressive specimen or example of itself, then I would likely have a very differnet view of OWS...

I've seen no 'growth', in fact, I've seen camps close, and people leave after getting nothing back from their efforts.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 2 years ago

i am responding to you. This is an example of its continued work. A forum of information sharing has opened. I have learned so much these past few weeks and have meet many amazing people. The fact that we can freely share ideas is totally incredible. At the same time, this movement has unsettled the powers that be.Hold tight, this is just the beginning. Look always to the solution for grounding.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I would like to thank you for your time, consideration, and attention you've given to both me and OWS. I too hae met LOTS of great individuals, and sharing solutions is truly big fun for me. That said, when the 'group think' gets started, the wheels come off the bus...

*Would you help me get my Motion passed, please?

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 2 years ago

Where is your motion? In a group or a forum? I am still learning how to navigate within the website. Send me to your motion so I can read it please.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

It is everywhere I have found a place to post..literally.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I'm so excited I can't stand it!

This is history!

I remember standing in the Royal Dutch Shell protests three years after Ken Saro-Wiwa was hung by the neck in Nigeria . . . he had been dead three years, the Ogoni people still suffered - just as they still suffer today under the heel of Oil exploitation and western consumer demand . . .

We did make a difference - small though it was. It was not enough then, it has not been enough, it has been years in the making, and even now big money resists change . . .

More people will die . . .

More people will die . . . .

But change is coming

Change is here . . .

WE Are That Change

And We Are Coming!!

  • C.H.A.O.S. I.S. C.O.M.I.N.G. !!!
[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

No one need die... -5

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

there are at least two already

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

What are their names, and how did it happen?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Correct me if I am wrong, but Law Enforcement officials didn't kill them right?

This was just violence that occured 'near' an OWS camp?

In normal society, you have rapes, murders, assaults, and theft. It is unreasonable to beleive that OWS, made up of normal soiety would be sans these things...

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Get real Zen - change has already come and you missed it years ago.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Ah... shucks... If only Occupy could stop comparing itself with other movements from the present and the past.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

why?

what is that shitty little phrase? compare and contrast?

There is much to be learned from what has gone before . . .

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

There has been one long train of discontent, spanning decades, spanning generations.

There is no I in WE.

When I say I stand, what I do is Stand Alone

When We Stand,

  • We Stand Together.
[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Except for you Zen, please move over a little. Too close.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

It isn't my fault, honest.

I just can't help foaming at the mouth.

Go blame Pavlov . . . .

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Blame the bone.

[-] 2 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago
[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Yeah, way too big for a bone!!!!

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

You have to know who you are before comparing yourself to someone else can make sense. What is Occupy but a mix mash of ideas coming from other movements?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 2 years ago

I briefly touch on that issue, right

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

Instant gratification is alright if you're talking about a good cup of coffee. Most elected officials placed the OWS movement on the back burner because 2011 is a year in which incumbents can sit back and relax. The New York Post has chosen to dilute its own value as a "news" media source when it became a propaganda source for corporations. The OWS movement is leaderless. Is that a bad thing and why? Is it bad because the New York Post says it or do you believe it? No Message? If this movement had no message then it wouldn't be in the news every day. 2012 is an election year and politicians just can't figure out how close they want to be tied to a movement that doesn't want the tremendous influence that corporations have in shaping our country and controlling politics. Incumbents will not have the luxury of sitting back in their do nothing comfort zone in 2012.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Can you name another 'successful' political movement without a leader, organizational structure, and sans a unified message???

I think the best question you can ask, that you didn't is: "Why would ANY movement refuse to become politically relevant?"

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

In NYS the OWS movement has already become relevant as Gov. Cuomo and his special committee of the monied elite who call themselves the "Committee to Save NY" gear up to protect their stakes in the 2012 budget. Already, there is a change in the tone of Gov. Cuomo as he positions himself in a way not to upset his wealthy donors and balance the fact that many incumbent politicians are not enjoying the position they put themselves in going into an election year. NYS political incumbents had the luxury in 2011 to support the agenda of the "Committee to Save NY" and protect their own corporate cash cows. The OWS movement has changed the comfort levels of our representatives.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Until we elect our own representatives, 'actual' policy change will have eluded us...

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

To some degree that is true. However, politicians will mold their ideas and policies based on several factors. In NYC you can be a morally liberal republican. As you go north, you change your colors to a morally moderate/conservative republican. Our politicians mold their policies around the flow of corporate money. It comes in the form of campaign donations or the offer of a job once this politician leaves public office. Our politicians will not divert themselves from this winning formula until it's not a winning formula anymore. Every incumbent needs to be voted out of office and until people register and vote our incumbents will continue to enjoy the comfort that incumbency brings them.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The ONLY way to do that is to 'change' voter behavior...

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

The behavior is simply a thought process. Once people know that they are empowered to bring substantial change in behavior of their elected representatives by the right to vote and the fact that they are the Majority then they will realize how much influence they have in forming our policies and laws.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

They haven't yet... :(

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

LIGHT BULB - You are NOT in the news everyday. The Police maybe, not OWS.

Leaderless is not a bad thing for sheep. That is why herders have sheep dogs - to provide that leadership.

You have had more leaders (dogs) than I can count. First were the anarchists, then the college loan dogs, then the this and then the that.

If you want to be a herd of leaderless sheep that is fine with me, what I am looking out for more than the leaderless sheep is the dogs that have your encircled.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

I'll match my spot light to your light bulb. MSNBC Morning Joe program had a positive segment on the OWS movement. Once again, OWS is in the News! You may enjoy your life like a passive cow waiting to be guided into the barn and parked in your stall. While you have lived this spineless life a few things disappeared around you. I'll remind you. The middle class buying power, affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable education and jobs shipped oversees because you were sheepishly lead into believing that we needed to further erode our manufacturing base to be competitive in a new and wonderful global market. There's no way that globalization is just a clever way of increasing share holder wealth and to provide a method to avoid paying corporate taxes. You go follow Newt Gingrich. He claims he's a conservative leader. He wouldn't lie to you. You're too smart for that.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

A few questions:

  1. Who is this Newt fellow you are recommending that I follow?

  2. LED bulb here - You will burn out long before I do and cost a lot more in the meantime.

  3. I watch some of the news on MSNBC. If I heard them say or look at me in any type of positive way - I would run like hell. Just my opinion of MSNBC just as your probably have your's of FOX. I see the difference in the two as one trying to keep you on life support and the other thinking that you might have died already. I bet you felt good having your ego built you, telling you what to do, to fight on, and prodding you to do their agenda.

When my most ardent competition starts speaking favorable of me, I know I am making progess. Suck-ups don't get the time of day from me.

  1. Evidently you have knowledge of the dairy industry, except the experience of being kicked in the head by that passive cow or at least having that trail slap you across the face once or twice. Neither one have proven to me that the cow is passive at all.

  2. I am quite pleased to see some foreign companies outsourcing jobs to the USA now. Check to see where that Kia auto is made and who assembles it. That is called outsourcing. Get ready for it, your next boss may very well speak fluent Chinese and expect you to do the same.

  3. I sure am not a fan of globalization and do, without question, oppose world wide bank systems, world wide government etc. So are as I am concerned, you can put the United Nations and all it its agendas out on a very small island where it should have been placed originally.

.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

What?

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

With minimal prodding you can also get a passive cow to walk into a slaughterhouse. The strategy of being leaderless has leadership qualities behind it. Corporations are having a difficult time setting up a well financed propaganda campaign against a "group" of individuals. When the time comes leaders will emerge. Avoiding being labeled by the wealthy elite and the media outlets that they control also provides a platform of accepting a diverse population that have similar concerns. OWS will continue to be getting new exposure as 2012 unfolds.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Spent a lot of time (18+ years) on the farm myself. I have seen many cattle shipped off to the slaughterhouse. It is not a matter of prodding all the cattle to get them to move onto the truck for a one-way trip. You ONLY have to get the leader of the herd to move that direction, all the other cattle easily follow. BEWARE of the leaderless organization you take pride in, cattle.

It has been my experience to date that the OWS organization, without leaders, has an inherent tendance to greatly exaggerate the facts: ie: numbers in a crowd, number of police, worldwide support claims, and the claim that you make in your post rgarding the Corporations. I have seen no information posted that the Corporations even know that you exist much less care. Who said they are having such a "difficult time" in confronting you??

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

+10 for "BEWARE of the leaderless organization you take pride in, cattle."

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

I personally like the idea of veal. Chain 'em up and keep them soft and tender. No need to have a leader in the group. before you butcher them.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

You have a very slim knowledge of American agriculture. How are things in Japan, these days??

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

I have to disagree with you on your knowledge of cultivating a tender piece of milk fed veal. I also have to disagree with you on how to cultivate a movement that can successfully change our dysfunctional government that was created by corporate America.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Ain't it nice that we can disagree?? Time will tell. Signed SecondVoice.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

Actually, we can agree. Time will tell.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

"If this movement had no message then it wouldn't be in the news every day. "

It's in the news because it forces confrontation with the police. People love to see violence and others suffer. That's why you hear about car accidents in the news, and not the upcoming concerts of your local opera house.

[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

+10...for "People love to see violence and others suffer.", and THIS is the reason OWS keeps making the news.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

if that is the case, then why is it when i talk to people i know they always are appalled at the angle our media takes. I believe some people watch news to know what's going down, and the visceral and vengeance turns them off from the whole scene. sadly, when you look at the crime reports statistically crime was waning. Is the being turned off and terrified, the reason crime is down? then who is really benefiting and why are they telling us we like it? i don't

[-] 1 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

That's a tough question that is difficult to answer. Jerry Spring was a peek rating show for quite awhile. Why was it favored over more cultural or political programs? I have no idea. I'd I been the director Fox when that show was presented to them, I would have rejected it right away. That's how clueless I am. You should ask this question to the producer of Jerry Springer. He's a genius. He was able to bring crap to everyone's living room, and everyone loved it! It's a paradox of human nature. We want to know all about the plane crash, but we don't care about intellectual matters. Why? I do not know.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

Do you really think it's in the news because of confrontations with the police officers? You might be surprised how little confrontation there is. The police officers have a job to do. Mayor Bloomberg controls the NYPD and Gov. Cuomo controls the NYS Police. That's as boring as it is. I also do not agree with your assumption that people love to see violence and suffering.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Perhaps there is little confrontation - probably directly correlates with the the news coverage OWS gets.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Yes, I do believe most of the news comes from the confrontations like in Oakland. I'm willing to bet Occupy will get a big boost of coverage when it occupy's the ports next month. I'm not in US and I don't have a TV at the moment so I don't know the details. I would be surprised if the movement is getting a lot of coverage during this time of re-evaluation. We'll see, but I'd be willing to place serious bets with anyone here that when the ports get taken over, news coverage will be much more intense than now. If they do manage to take the ports for a long period, then I'm willing to place bets that coverage will be near 24 hours. I remember the start of the first war in Iraq. They kept showing the same bombing images and talking about how the missiles were precise and accurate. They never interviewed the people of Iraq and showed us how they went about their daily lives. News is about car crashes my friend, not about concerts and nice good things.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

There's a difference between News and "News". Like you said, they never interviewed the people of Iraq. "News" is for your entertainment. It's a sound bite or a 30 second video tape played over and over again. News isn't about car crashes. News is about what a serious journalist produces in which facts are presented from an unbiased point of view. The New York Post looks like a newspaper. However, it sells "news" entertainment and delivers a biased and negative point of view of the OWS movement. The propaganda behind the New York Post is that every story has a negative aspect that can be manipulated to sway public opinion. Even police agencies have negative stories and incidents printed about them. That doesn't make police agencies bad but the New York Post has the ability to focus on any negative stereo types against the OWS and attempt to make this movement into a negative public image. News and "News" are of two different worlds although they may appear to look alike.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

It's not to hard to portray a negative image of Occupy. You just need too look at the latest poster of the red fist with the black city at the bottom which looks like dripping blood from afar. Occupy is helping journalists who want to represent it negatively. That's why people want Occupy to change its tactics. It's OK to criticize Occupy. That's how we can start to make it better.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

It's not hard to portray a negative image of anything. That "negative" image is a part of effective propaganda. I also watched Morning Joe today and there was a positive segment on the OWS movement on this conservative host's program. There's also a huge difference between criticizing and setting a propaganda agenda. A red fist poster is not helping journalists. Remember, journalists report news.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

I find it interesting when a non-violent movement spends its times making violent looking posters. To me that's news because I can fantom why Occupy wants to do this. It baffles my mind, especially since it can only serve to dismay people who could have been protesters like myself.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

If posters make you feel that OWS is a violent militant group then all I can say is that I don't feel or see this militant hatred from people who want corporations to have no financial reward system in Washington DC or even Albany NY which gives politicians incentives not to create sound government policies. Any poster is there just to bring awareness. Whether it's a red fist or a yellow colored poster with "We are the 99%" written on it. You would have to go back to the early 1980s to find anything that resembled a radical group and thankfully 99% of them are still in prison.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/deconstructing-occupy-a-message-within-a-message/

Look at the posters here. If don't care about marketing and gaining more protesters that's fine. If you do care about not losing potential protesters like myself and many others, than you should bring up the topic to the GA.

Here are what people are saying nowadays: http://occupywallst.org/article/occupy-philly-facing-eviction-today/#comments

Occupy was a cool movement, but it wasn't able to accept criticism and make itself better. For that reason, it is dying.

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

OWS movement is not dying. 2012 is an election year.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Keep making violent posters, and I'll keep adding them to my collection. When you start making peaceful ones, I'll think about joining and helping your movement.

A photo of what occupiers are doing in Rome.

Meanwhile, a poster for a non-violent protest in Oakland.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I can't say I 'like' this image...

[-] 1 points by OneVoice (153) 2 years ago

Free Speech and Freedom to Assemble with a No Chemical Agents message doesn't look too intimidating to me. I just have a difference of opinion than you.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Indeed. Good luck with your movement. It's great that you guys don't care what others think.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Glaucon - Right to the point of the matter. Thanks.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

i compare my hope for the movement with my lack of hope before the movement. so the fact that i have hope for the future, makes the movement all worth it.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The 'beginning' of OWS gave me hope, but it has been dashed against the stone cold reality of do nothing GA's...

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

i take it all in stride. for instance, i'm a news junkie and i'm happy to say that the mood and comments of the talking heads have become more civil. I have become less partisan. although i'm still true to my up bringing, i'm a little less inclined to demonize the opposite isle. As for the do nothing GAs, elections are not until Nov. a lot can happen from now until then.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

AGREED, but primary elections are a mere 4 months out.

OWS needs to get organized, adopt a platform, and begin appointng or electing rotating spokespeople...

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

i wish the Rep. primaries could be hijacked by the movement then that would light a fire under Obama's ass. seeing that the right is now left, makes the left act more right. lol

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

They COULD be...

But OWS is gonna have to get started immediately.

[-] 1 points by Restorefreedomtoall1776 (272) from Bayonne, NJ 2 years ago

Do u have any idea how long and hard the struggle was to win American freedom from King George III during the Revolutionary War, and all the setbacks that the patriots suffered during that awful time? Even Benjamin Franklin's own son turned traitor and continuted to support and seek favor trom the king. Nothing happened overnight. It took time and determination which most Americans - sadly - no longer have. Unless Americans of our own time find that same determination somewhere, we are lost.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

How long did it take for the revolutionists to 'decide' what to do about King George III's treatment of them, once the movement officially started?

[-] -1 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

I think Americans have determination. People are simply questioning Occupy's tactics at the moment and proposing some of their own instead. This is good as it fuels thought and discussion. If these people had no determination, they wouldn't be posting here.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I think I pretty much quite OWS...

I was on the bus, but it never went anywhere, so got off.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I am chalked FULL of determination, patients, stick-to-itiveness, but it comes in an opinionated strong willed package...

I am most certainly here to "question" OWS tactics.

[-] 1 points by Restorefreedomtoall1776 (272) from Bayonne, NJ 2 years ago

Except for participants and vocal supporters of OWS, I don't see any such determination. When the American people wake up one day and find themselves in FEMA concentration camps, they may finally realize what was happening while they slept in ignorance of anything going on around them.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Occupy has image problems that limit its appeal at the moment. People are talking about various solutions to fix these. If this gets done, then Occupy will be ready to grow much bigger. The problem is most people don't want to block ports and print posters with violent imagery. They want to use other tactics. That's fine. Perhaps it's worthwhile to get ready before going down in the street and protesting. Occupy didn't seem to be ready. That's why they grew only to find out they had a confused message. We can use Occupy's current down time to redress the movement.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Since OWS doesn't want to create an 'agenda', then create your own.

Talk with people, one on one, build a support, bring your ideas forward, the group can do likewise. It takes more noise to be heard among the noise.

Maybe, if you are interested, take a look at 99PercentDeclaration, they are trying to arrange a national GA and taking the time to do it right.

https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/

I posted a few days ago that we can fight a two front war this may well be our flanking movement.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I LOVE the idea of a National Convention...

I DON'T like the idea of limiting what roles individuals can play in said convention. Delegates can't be candidates???

I think the BEST "flanking" maneuver OWS could do is throw ALL of its support behind Green Party congressional candidates. IMHO

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Your idea, my idea...we've all ideas some of us even cherish our ideas... I think everyone should get behind the idea they feel is the one they can support.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Have you read my Motion?

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

To tell you the truth, I couldn't say for sure, I've done so much reading it's running all together as to who wrote what. But thanks for asking.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I can fully understand that... :)

Here's my Motion: "I move that all OWS Protests be composed of 3 elements- Protesters, Constitutional Shields (A cardboard or paper shield embossed with the U.S. Constitution on one side, and a blank space on the other for the day's march message.), and an Action (Trash Pick-up, Street Sweeping, or Volunteer Brigade). Such that each march accomplishes 3 things- makes the world a cleaner place, carries a unified message, and protects protesters with the Constitution."

I would greatly appreciate any support you could offer. :)

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

True. The problem with such a double attack is that one "army" can undermine the other. While you kindly propose your declaration in a polite and elegant manner, Occupy will be blocking ports and other important structures. Unfortunately, this will not serve you well. It will taint your message by association. Because Occupy is "open to all ideologies", it seems evident that if most people agree it's time to make demands and get organized, then Occupy would be the vehicle to do that with. Why not vote to change the tactics at the next GA? Occupy is already in the spotlight, you should at least consider using that advantage. I'm not against your idea, but I think it's a waste of energy unless it's absolutely impossible to change Occupy so that it represents the wants of most of the 99%. If Occupy cannot be changed, then, yes, your idea has value.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Or it could be looked upon as OWS being the hit and run tactics that would cease if/when the issues are addressed.

I do believe OWS and 99PercentDeclaration should work together to a common end. Getting them to do so is a whole 'nother situation.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

Occupy wants a revolution. Its inspiration comes from the Arab Spring protests where three governments have been toppled so far. They get a hard on when they imagine themselves toppling the US government. Occupy has no interest in proposing demands in the hope that the government will oblige and fix itself. I'm eager to see what will happen in December when they block the ports. This will be a crucial moment.

Unless people like yourself go to the GAs and push for a change in Occupy's vision and action plan, I fear the movement won't last much longer.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Then the focus can shift to 99PercentDeclaration. It is true an idea can not be evicted.

I'm not so sure Occupy wants a revolution as a whole, although I agree there are factions within Occupy that would strive to create one.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

I don't like this motto - "And idea cannot be evicted." It presumes their idea cannot and should not be counter-argued. It doesn't leave room for discussion. I would prefer a motto that talks about perseverance or determination. "Our determination/perseverance cannot be _". In this way, the perseverance and/or determination can be seen as pushing the movement forward, but questioning the movement is still possible. We don't even really know what idea they are talking about since the message of Occupy is not truly transparent and, at times, quite baffling.

The idea of being "evicted" also bothers me. It implies Occupy has a right to make a public park its private land. This isn't clear yet, and the decision is still waiting a court date. It also implies the government is trying to stop the protesters from having free speech. That's just not true. They can protest and express their ideas. They just can't take public land and turn in into their own private campground.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

You see the 'evicted' as a physical thing, I see it as mental.

An idea once conceived is always present, even if it is relegated to the background.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Welcome to Overeaters Anon, Alch Anon, Sex Addicts Anon. Same principle, same result.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Obviously you do not believe an idea can evolve to develop beyond it's current state. I don't disagree that an idea should not be subject to counter arguments or constructive criticism, yet an idea is a mental exercise not a physical one.

You disregard and 'disabuse' my line of thought, my conception of the 'idea can not be evicted' and insert your own as the only positive conception. Demonstrating that disagreements are necessary, yet not vital to each persons conception of the thought.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

In simple English, I agree with you on your post about the mental state and the background residence of an idea. I simply made reference to several types of things that support your claim that it is MENTAL though it might be triggered by a physical condition such as hunger, vitamin or chemical imbalance, etc it still remains under mental control and response.

Beyond that, you are way over my head to even understand your second paragraph.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Ok, so it's a communication issue.

Basically, an idea should be developed, counter arguments is not a conductive term to use when attempting to develop an idea, criticism should be clarified as constructive criticism, which contributes. The word criticism by itself leads to negative understanding.

To put it as plainly as possible, you and I see a problem, one of us wants to hit it head on, the other wants to flank it, we both try and find that neither one of us has the correct approach, so we look for ways to go over or under it.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

Or to work together on it.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Or presume that each realizes the other is correct in stating the direct or flanking approaches are less than satisfactory and another option should be explored.

I think, when I used the term 'we', it included working together on it.

[-] 0 points by ronjj (-241) 2 years ago

You have opened a real BOX here Pandora. Nice talking with you - have to go to work now. LATER>

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

An idea should always be open to counter-arguments and criticism. If it is found to be bad, it should be rejected. I have rejected many ideas since I was a small boy.

[-] 1 points by PandoraK (1678) 2 years ago

Could we try the word adapt?

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 2 years ago

That's a given. There is no such thing as a static idea. It is always in movement. That's why it needs to be open to criticism all the time. If it's bad, we reject it. If it's good for the moment, we keep it. If new information renders it less than prefect, we can adapt it.

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[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Misleading of socialism in education has left the movement without the knowledge to understand the tools that can create change. The previous 2000 years made them afraid of what they need to know to understand the methods of those who work to enslave them.

The elite send minions of infiltration and disinformation with false leaders directing people to spiral down the drain of futility and give up.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

So, how do we fix it?

Seriously...got any real work solutions?

[-] 0 points by redandbluestripedpill (333) 1 year ago

Make agreement on absolutes, the most important first. Those I've learned are actually highly constitutional.

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[-] 0 points by icetiger01 (-1) 2 years ago

"OWS" is a disappointment. It is without merit to simply say that OWS seeks to limit the power and influence of Wall Street and large corporations... etc. This movement needs to actually do something besides sit around on its butt at various places. It should start an initiative as a first step toward a referendum to amend the Constitution of the United States. If you read the definition of an "initiative" it is different from a referendum in that it's source is citizens. Instead of sitting around on their collective butts, the members of "OWS" should conduct a petition drive to get individual citizens to sign the request for an amendment to the constitution to allow binding referendums that require the U.S. Congress to take specific actions if approved by voting citizens in a referendum --- just as 23 states already allow referendums to for citizens to approve certain actions and compel the Congress to implement the actions. We need the ability to hold national referendums just as states do. A nationwide petition to require this if it contained enough verified signatures could not be ignored. Carpe Diem.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26697) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

An apparent new arrival and already so full of it. Do you have prior experience here or did you just happen to arrive with a freshly minted prejudice?

[-] 1 points by icetiger01 (0) 1 minute ago

icetiger01

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Joined April 15, 2012

[-] -2 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

I have posted what you are saying and it's falling on deaf ears. The OWS only know how to protest and get thrown in jail. They are jealous of the Tea Party and condem them but the Tea Party has accomplishments along with their organized protests.

There is a big difference between the OWS and the Tea Party - the Tea Party knows how to get things done.

[-] 0 points by chestRockwell (-4) 2 years ago

OWS definitely makes me laugh at the futility

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Better to laugh, than cry...?

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[-] 0 points by Infowar (295) 2 years ago

About 8 i was hoping everyone agreed with the phliosiphy of liberty.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

I wanted "for better days through the implementation of better ways."

[-] 0 points by Infowar (295) 2 years ago

I don't want to create my own idea of what that is supposed to mean. Can you fill me in?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

:)

I have nothing specific. It is just a general idea of how we should attempt to run things.

Actually, it is a line from the FFA Creed, and I 'think' it elludes to using gas powered plows over horse drawn ones.

[-] 0 points by Infowar (295) 2 years ago

"for better days through the implementation of better ways."

Anyone can agree with the phrase but that is the problem. The debate is what a "better day" is and also "better ways". Now if i define what i say a "better day" and a "better way" are it erases the confusions.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Well... I guess I joined this movement because I wanted for 'progress', which is really what better days through better ways is, right?

What is or ISN'T better, would all depend on a great many things. :)

[-] 0 points by Infowar (295) 2 years ago

Progress is still nondescript in your usage. prog·ress (prgrs, -rs, prgrs) n. 1. Movement, as toward a goal; advance. (whats the goal) 2. Development or growth: students who show progress. (of what) 3. Steady improvement, as of a society or civilization: a believer in human progress. See Synonyms at development. (how) 4. A ceremonial journey made by a sovereign through his or her realm. intr.v. pro·gress (pr-grs) pro·gressed, pro·gress·ing, pro·gress·es (doubt this is what you meant) 1. To advance; proceed: Work on the new building progressed at a rapid rate. (Also of what) 2. To advance toward a higher or better stage; improve steadily: as medical technology progresses. (ect) 3. To increase in scope or severity, as a disease taking an unfavorable course (ect)

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Alright... I am a little lost. What are we discussing, exactly?

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[-] -1 points by icetiger01 (-1) 2 years ago

"OWS" is a disappointment. It is without merit to simply say that OWS seeks to limit the power and influence of Wall Street and large corporations... etc. This movement needs to actually do something besides sit around on its butt at various places. It should start an initiative as a first step toward a referendum to amend the Constitution of the United States. If you read the definition of an "initiative" it is different from a referendum in that it's source is citizens. Instead of sitting around on their collective butts, the members of "OWS" should conduct a petition drive to get individual citizens to sign the request for an amendment to the constitution to allow binding referendums that require the U.S. Congress to take specific actions if approved by voting citizens in a referendum --- just as 23 states already allow referendums to for citizens to approve certain actions and compel the Congress to implement the actions. We need the ability to hold national referendums just as states do. A nationwide petition to require this if it contained enough verified signatures could not be ignored. Carpe Diem.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Are you still around and active?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

+25...

Hell, sir you can have ALL the points, ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!


icetiger01,

Thank you for being here to say such things. If there is a specific "initiative" I can help you with, please ask.

I have a Motion I've have failed to pass any GA: http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-motion-i-seek-a-2nd/

Any assistance you could offer would be appreciated.

I am a student, activist, blogger: http://betterliberalarguments.blogspot.com/

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (26697) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Check out my Post about being proactive and uniting in common cause.

Plenty of worthy petitions there like OSTA and ending corporate personhood, getting money out of politics and many more.

That is only one post containing/sharing such things. There are posts all over this forum site - you need only look and educate yourself.

This is essentially a communications hub and as such is pretty active. So look around before you start making snap judgements.

[-] -1 points by Shule (2030) 2 years ago

I you all out there don't have the balls to take down the electrical power lines going over to the building housing the NYSE, then you're not doing anything......

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

-5...

Destruction of utility lines is moronic and could kill someone.

NO ONE needs to die for OWS to accomplish their goals.

[-] -1 points by mookie (38) 2 years ago

The movement organizers are not open to new ideas, they are Obama voters, Democrats first, and have been using this platform to take pressure off of Obama and his administration. There are REAL ideas, but you must educate yourself, don't listen to misinformed hate mongers that troll this site, posting false-information designed to polarize and incite hatred towards other Americans with different opinions.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Those envolved with OWS are mostly disillusioned voters, who no longer believe in representative democracy...

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Okay...why don't you offer 'some' summery of the video, even a short description would be helpful.

It is 2 hours and 41 minutes long for goodness's sakes!!!

[-] -3 points by ExGoldmanSachs (-52) 1 year ago

Oh so you are a loser even among some of the biggest losers in the country aka OWS. Even crackpots of OWS do not listen to you. Thats just sad. You should cry yourself to sleep tonight

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

What are you talking about, I got lots of lateral support, just not passage of my Motion from any OWS GA's...

What are you being such a Negative Nancy for?

[-] -1 points by ExGoldmanSachs (-52) 1 year ago

because its so much fun

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Sounds like you need an aspirin and a nap, you're getting a little fussy.

[-] -2 points by ExGoldmanSachs (-52) 1 year ago

u r right... my startup keeps me awake

[+] -5 points by Idaltu (662) 2 years ago

You really should get back on your meds