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Forum Post: OWS Motion- I seek a 2nd.

Posted 3 years ago on Nov. 24, 2011, 10:21 a.m. EST by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

"I move that all OWS Protests be composed of 3 elements- Protesters, Constitutional Shields (A cardboard or paper shield, t-shirt or flag embossed with the U.S. Constitution on one side, and a blank space on the other for the day's march message.), and an Action (Such 'actions' might include but are not limited to trash or cigarette butt pick-up, street sweeping, volunteer brigade, blood donation team, or other...). Such that each march or protest accomplishes 3 things- makes the world a better place in some small but noticeable way, carries a unified message, and protects protesters with the Constitution."

207 Comments

207 Comments


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[-] 4 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Sounds like you don't know how the General Assembly decision making process works.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 3 years ago

Could you give a simplified version of the process for me please. I really appreciate the form, but have not figured out exactly how it works. Thanks

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

There is no substitute for actually going to one. And anyway, if you seriously want to have your proposal considered, you'd have to go to one anyway. I realize we have busy lives. Those of us who are lucky enough to have a job have to work. But nearly everyone has two days off a week and unless you live is an extremely remote area I suspect that at most you are no more than 200 or so miles from the nearest GA and/or occupation. The best way to be really part of the movement is to spend at least 24 hours at an occupation. Failing that, at least go to a GA.

If this is in a place where you can't go regularly. When you get home use twitter, face book, your old fashioned address book and other social media to call a meeting and set up a GA. There are instructions on this website on how to do so. If you really run into trouble call the closest occupation and have them send someone to help you, though you might have to pay their travel expenses and subsistence. Then, set up a website for you GA. If you build it, they will come. If you become concerned about leadership, look in a mirror.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 1 year ago

Great comment. You still here?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Admittedly, I'd prefer OWS adopt parliamentary procedure or Robert's Rules of Order, as the way to run GA's...

Is there a link to a description of the current GA process?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

process -
1 speak
2 block 3 repeat steps 1 & 2 till you are bored & quit

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Yup...that's pretty much been my experience.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

The #HowToOccupy link at the top of this page has the rudiments of how to occupy including process. I'd agree that the current consensus process leaves much to be desired, but then again, so does Robert's Rules. Both, after all were constructed by human beings and did not come down from Mt. Sinai with Moses along with the 10 Commandments. Robert's Rules especially were designed to be used by highly educated middle class white men. Current NYC GA practice is an attempt to move beyond that in a more democratic direction. Of course there will be pitfalls and errors in judgement along the way. That is always the case when striking out on a new course, but the basic notion that Robert's Rules are not necessarily the most democratic way to run either a meeting or society remains valid.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Hey RedJazz43, are you still around?

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

specifically the NYC GA used to have 1000+ people . now it MAY have 20
.


Roberts rules work very well if they are not run by a dictator

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Well, I have found that using a simple form of parliamentary procedure, that most can grasp was most ideal, in the meetings I've ran over the years.

We'd start by offering one-minute speeches, that result in a specific Motion, that requires a second to enter discussion and open the Motion up for amendment. After amendments were offer, then we'd move to discussion. If we could find so general consensus, then we'd enter timed debate, followed by a vote.

You wouldn't have to be a RRO expert to take part in a meeting I ran, but I WOULD make every effort to see to it that each Motion was given full consideration, and 'equal' time to debate the issue from each side.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

What you describe above is not Robert's Rules though it appears to be based on Robert's to some degree, which is fine, but again, still a human invention and therefore subject to improvement. The GA process itself is subject change and there is public debate about that change as GAs grow and the initial process becomes untenable for larger GAs. This is a process of growth and learning along with everything else at an encampment, such as how to integrate antisocial elements from the 99% into an egalitarian encampment, essential if we want to construct a truly open and democratic society. To a certain degree the suspension of disbelief is essential when getting involved in any occupation, especially as even most supporters of OWS aren't sure that a truly democratic, peaceful, loving and egalitarian society is really possible.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Agreed...

That said, I can't say 'I' have any faith in the current model to yield democratic results. While I have never attended a GA, the one's I've seen streamed live did not offer 'equal' debate on issues.

Open discussion should yield 'either' a consensus OR be followed by timed debate...

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

I know that people lead very busy lives. They have jobs and some people have disabilities. But nearly everyone has two days a week off and I have seen people in wheel chairs occupying. There is really no substitute for experiencing an occupation in the flesh and nearly everyone lives at least within a couple of hundred miles of some occupation. I would strongly urge anyone who has never been to an occupation to take one day out of their busy lives to go to one, Try to spend 24 hours if you can. If not at least go to a GA. I'd say especially go to a GA before you presume to criticize its process, I think a few hours at any occupation will really change nearly everyone's life and open them up to possibilities that never before occured to them,

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I'd been to the Occupy Dallas camp twice, and the Occupy Denton camp.

I've exchanged e-mails with OD, but honestly I can't say I ever felt 'heard' by anyone there. In fact, I'd say I was faced with more opposition, than acceptance.

Here's a video I made of my 1st trip to OD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL8C-bNl29I

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Sorry for you disappointment. I think part of the thing to realize is that small as this movement is, there are still tens of thousands of people directly involved and at least hundreds at most occupations, each individual with their own agenda. Personally, I have found the most productive stance to take is to be happy to be along for the ride, make suggestions when you think they are appropriate, and don't feel too hurt if nobody takes you seriously.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

The thing is 'I' am a doer, and in fact, a leader with strong opinions, and not usually one to take a seat in the back of the bus. At the OD camp, I was mic checked into silence, on the OD site, I had my posts disappear, and when I scheduled a live feed from Dallas to globalrevolution.livestream, I arrived to see that OD had already scheduled a teach-in over my time slot.

I began by trying to pass out my essay, "Call to Action". However, I quickly realized that it was simply too long to be consumed in one sitting. That is why I abandoned that and started pushing the Motion above.

*I have yet to get this Motion passed at a single GA... :(

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

I'm not suggesting that just because you should in not expecting anything you say or do not to be taken too seriously you are in any sense not a leader. The fact is, we are all leaders, and if you genuinely respect that then you need to realize that whether you are a PhD or a junkie, we are all equal. That is the kind of society we are trying to build. We are all leaders. Solidarity forever!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I can only speak from my own experience(s) with the camps I have been to. What 'I' have seen and indeed experienced is that many within this movement don't want leaders, strong opinions, and will mic check those who are, into silence...

I was met with phrases like, "No leaders allowed" & "This isn't about YOU!" and I've even had my posts disappear from the OD forum. This was the response to the Motion I made above, and the essay I linked. I've NEVER sought a leadership role, nor do I now seek one.

I can only surmise that those I've encountered are interested in me as a body, and aren't interested in my words.

I hope only to be proven wrong in this regard.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Yes, it is an interesting balancing act. I do think that it is not entirely correct to conceptualize this as a leaderless movement. I think it is more accurately a leaderful movement, a movement in which we are all leaders, but the trick is to learn to be a leader without being ego involved and that is no easy task.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Well, I am what I am... It is simply not in my nature to be a silent wall flower who's just there to take up space and decorate the area.

All that I ask is that my ideas and suggestions receive 'equal' consideration, and that I be allowed to defend my proposition(s). I can not say this has been the case, thus far...

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I have been comfortable in other organizations... I fully expected to be greeted with open arms into this movement, after all the OWS movement is liberal, progressive, anti-corporation, anti-corruption...EVERYTHING I love and support.

Instead, I have found that 'my type' aren't welcome, that I should hold my tongue, or that I should find another movement.

IMO this movement suffers a real deficiency in it's treatment of people like me... I came here, offered my time and insight because I want to HELP the OWS movement, achieve positive change.

I only hope that the OWS movement finds a way to allow me to help cause that change.

[-] 0 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

I don't think we have to be silent wall flowers, but denying our capacity to change is a kind of arrogance. Sorry you have had such bad experiences. I suspect that the problem is you are expecting more from the occupy movement than it is currently able to give. You sound like somebody who would be more comfortable in a more formal organizational structure, and there are plenty of them around. OWS is trying to do something new and different, trying to be something new and different. It doesn't always succeed, but that is the nature of things when you are really trying to break new ground.

[-] 0 points by SteveKJR (-497) 2 years ago

What I find interesting about this video is there is no solution to solving the problems. There is always a lot of talk about what needs to be done but nothing is being done to get things done.

I think that is the format of the OWS. Unless the OWS has a platform as a foundation, a plan and then action 5 months from now you can go back to OD and you will be hearing the same rhetoric.

Talk about problems but no solutions except - protesting or disrupting traffic or causing police to haul them off. Anybody can talk the talk but where it counts is when they can walk the walk.

The "tea party" movenment is an example of a grass roots orginaziton that had a platform, they had a plan and then they took action to accomplish their goal - and it wasn't only protesting -

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The 'solution' is "voting smart, or not at all"...


As for OWS, I suggest passing the Motion I put forward HERE: http://occupywallst.org/forum/ows-motion-i-seek-a-2nd/

[-] 1 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

Without "majority rule" you have "minority rule" - the ultimate dictatorship .

and don't forget the ultimate joy of "blocking"

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I don't believe a single individual should be allowed to stop the majority from acting... When a Chair within RRO fails the majority then he/she should be replaced.

[-] 1 points by love4ourhumans (6) 3 years ago

Why haven't you attended a GA?

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I am 2 hours away from the nearest one and I 'missed' the GA the last 2 times I went to Occupy Dallas... I showed up for the Occupy Denton GA, but it never got started.

Occupy Dallas got evicted, and Occupy Denton is no more than a dozen protesters without an internet presense.

My being a quadraplegic keeps me from having boots on the ground. :(

[-] 1 points by love4ourhumans (6) 3 years ago

2 hours is far, I can understand that and your condition is keeping you from being able to participate frequently is understandable too.

Have there been any interest in starting and Occupy in your city? At least GA's where you can gather and keep up with other Occupy cities?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I live in a town of 2500 conservative Texans...so "No."

I go to as many Occupy camps as I can afford. SSI disability doesn't provide as much gasoline as it used to.

I watch live streaming GA's as often as I can.

[-] 1 points by love4ourhumans (6) 3 years ago

There are a few GA's streaming that are more organized then others. I hope you can find those.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I have submitted my Motion to EVERY GA I have found contact information to.

Others have also said they would present the Motion to GA's they attend.

While ALL have reported up fingers, NONE...not a single GA has adopted the Motion, to date.

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 3 years ago

No need to be so attached to your motions, it is all about the process. Refine your motions. Define them, roll them around on your tongue. If it doesn't pass muster let it go and accept and propose another one.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I proposed this Motion initially in a much shorter form, but it has been and still is 'open' to amendments, so it has been augmented from its original version.

I have found no one that has offended, disagrees with, or is opposed to the Motion. Everyone who has presented it at GA's report "up fingers", but none have adopted it.

I am ONLY 'attached' to protecting protesters, allowing us to march with a unified message, and causing ACTUAL positive change...

WHY should I or anyone abandon such notions???

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 3 years ago

I did not imply abandon so much as refine until such a time as it becomes self evident. that is all. But mostly what I meant was don't give up.

[-] 0 points by bensdad (8977) 1 year ago

FYI - the GA decision making process does NOT work

[-] 0 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

so who does? and how do we tell others if we don't know and no one is helping newbees to find out.

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Well the most important way to find out how a GA operates is to actually go to one. I know that everybody has a very busy life, but nearly everyone has two days off a week and could afford one day out of their busy life to go to an occupation and find out what it is all about. I think this is extremely important as really the defining characteristic of this movement is occupying so I don't think it's really possible to say that you support it until you actually experience an occupation.

Also, this is a very, very young movement, only weeks old. Only two weeks ago everybody was a newbie. Nobody taught them. They taught themselves. That said, I have been active in left wing social movements for nearly 50 years and I have never seen a movement as open and welcoming as OWS. All you have to do is go there. Again, I know everybody has a busy life, but one day out of it should not be prohibitive to most people.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

what can we do on line? the big cities are 300 miles or more away

[-] 1 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

At the top of this page is a tab called "How to Occupy." It goes through in great detail how to start a General Assembly and occupation. If you are too far from an occupation (though I think 300 miles might be manageable for a week end day trip), start your own General Assembly in your own community or perhaps at the county level. If you need help contact the closest occupation and most of them would be glad to send someone to help you though you might need to pay for bus transportation and subsistance (food and a place to crash).

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Well I know what all the hand signals mean. :)

But I'll concede I have no idea how or if OWS is even capable of passing or recogonizing Motions.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

It is not that OWS is incapable of recognizing or passing motions. Mostions, per se, are really not part of the consensus model decision making process. If you look above under the heading How to Occupy, there is a sub headig of Assemblies, which describes the decision making process of General Assemblies. It's not so much like comparing apples and oranges. It's more like comparing apples to Tuesday.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Here's: How it works-

A Working Group or individual participant shares what is being proposed, why it is being proposed, and how it can be carried out if approved. If there is consensus for the proposal – meaning no outright opposition – then it is accepted and direct action begins.

If there is no consensus, there will be participant deliberation, followed by the suggestion of modified proposals, or the responsible group or individual may revise the proposal and submit it again at the following General Assembly. If the proposal is not changed or withdrawn, the General Assembly may move to accept a 90%, or minimum 66%, majority approval.

Participants must engage peacefully and respectfully. Active listening is key to making collective decisions that take everyone’s opinions into account.

*I think I rather prefer parliamentary procedure, with seconds, amendment, discussion, then a timed debate, followed by a vote for whatever majority the group sets.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

The thing is, class parliamentary procedure was developed in the 18th century for middle class, 18th century white males. It did not come down from Mt. Sinai with Moses along with the 10 Commandments. It was invented by particular human beings at a particular time and place for particular human beings. As such it is far from perfect.

Likewise with OWS decision making procedures. While they may be far from adequate, there is certainly nothing wrong with declaring notihing holy and basically everything up for grabs in terms of it being able to be improved. It may be the case that the OWS process is not an improvement, but there is nothing wrong with re-examining earlier decision making processes and at least attempting to improve upon them.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Parliamentary procedure is based on the principles of allowing the majority to make decisions effectively and efficiently (majority rule), while ensuring fairness towards the minority and giving each member or delegate the right to voice an opinion. Voting determines the will of the assembly, but balance and equaity lie at its core...

From the streaming videos I've seen, the current GA model LACKS equaity, fairness, and balance. IMHO

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

You are discussing parliamentary procedure from the point of view of the people who designed it and for whom it was designed. It is a human invention, invented by particular human beings, at a particular time and place, for particular human beings. It was not handed down by God. As such, it has the shortcomings of any other human invention and is reasonably subject to change and improvement, including wholesale revolutions that would cast the entire system aside for a new one, also invented by human beings and as such also subject to the shortcomings of any human invention. There may be and are shortcomings in the GA consensus process, but there is nothing essentially wrong with trying to address the shortcomings of previous decision making processes.

There is no substitute for being at a GA or any decision making meeting. I have been to meetings run by Robert's rules where I have felt excluded and where I have felt included. Likewise with consensus bodies. Depending on the context, sometimes i have felt included and sometimes excluded.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

First, God told parents to kill their kids if they didn't honor them. Just because "God" said it, doesn't mean it is sans flaws.

Second, parliamentary procedure ISN'T 'proper' if it fails to both allow the majority to rule, while protecting minority rights. I too have been to meetings where I felt 'left out', and when that happens, I move for "a vote of no confidence in the chair". Parliamentary isn't biased, and neither should a chair be. If it isn't delivering "equal time for debate", then it fails its purpose...

From the livestreaming videos I've watched, GA's don't.

[-] 2 points by RedJazz43 (2757) 3 years ago

Parliamentary procedure is a human invention made by particular human beings, for particular human beings at a particular time and place. It was most certainly not handed to human beings by God. It is a human invention, made by human beings at a particular historical moment to serve particular purposes for a particular group of people.

As a human invention, like all human inventions, it is flawed. It is especially flawed precisely because it was invented by particular people for particular people at a particular historical moment and as such is not necessarily at all suited or appropriate for different people at a different historical moment.

I am not suggesting that GA process is even an improvement. I am simply suggesting that there is nothing sacrosanct in previously established parliamentary methods, they are not the be all and end all of democratic practice, nor were they meant to be and as such it is perfectly appropriate for OWS to experiment with other processes and forms in order to find one that better meets their needs.

There is no substitute for being there and participating, no matter what process the body has chosen to conduct its affairs.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

What 'I' am suggesting is that a procedure is only as good as the results it produces...

[-] 0 points by MVSN (768) from Stockton, CA 3 years ago

Does anybody?

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I know that 5 people standing with crossed arms can stop anythng from happening...

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

This Motion has literally received 1/3 of the comments that my "OWS makes me sad :(", post did...

My multiple attempts to get it offered up at the NY GA has been a complete and utter failure.

I am now officially more sad than ever...

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Oh, I think that is a HORRIBLE decision...

Better days though better ways, folks!

BE the change you want, become the solution.

[-] 2 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

I can see an image in my mind of a stream of pressurized pepper spray deflecting , and dripping from the surface of the Constitution held by a young girl who is supporting her unemployed father!

Who in the hell could justify that?!

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

*Image is everything...

[-] 2 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

image is nothing, the "meat" matters

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

:)

Not in today's media drenched world, I am afraid.

This image: http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/2011/11/occupy-portland-n17-496cd5b90fe2b00f.jpg

Is worth more than 1000 words.

The image of the naked girl in the street after the bombing of Hiroshima...

The image of the rubble of the WTC towers, as firefighters struggled to search for survivors...

The image of the U.S. Olympic medal winners standing with fists held high and their head bowed, rather than having their hand over their heart and facing the flag during the national anthem...

You could have the greatest steak in the world but if you serve it is an unappealing matter, no one is gonna touch it.

[-] 2 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

so you like how the media runs things? when did the meat stop being important in a meal? images are strong, a picture is worth a 1000 words but without content, what have you? Like a fresh paint job on a car with a blown motor, looks nice sure but won't run and take you to the store for groceries.

If I was starving I would eat that steak raw with dirt on it.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

No, I DON'T 'like' how the media runs things... I am just realistically accepting that "image" is everything, in the world we live in.

Americans aren't starving for media, we've got more than we could ever hope to consume, which is why you have to wrap that steak in bacon, toss it on the grill, then serve it with a baked potato topped with sour cream and chives if you want anyone to take a second look at it.

I wish it were not this way, but having zero ability to change it, we have to work within this system if we hope for change.

The image I linked IS powerful enough to cause the passerby to seek the context...IMHO.

[-] 2 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

I'll agree that image is important to a degree, but like the "false fronts" of the old western towns that make the building look bigger, discovering "false fronts" can be deflating. I know many people are all about image, I realized a long time ago that image is less important to me than others. I can drive a old rusty dented car that still starts every time brakes right and has good acceleration and can be bought for about 1/10th of the cost of a new car and will go 1/2 as far. I decided I could not afford image and decided to go with quality before image, picking cars that worked well before I considered how they looked. The car was to get me there, NOT a status symbol. A new car would be for impressing people about my ability to earn much money.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Well, I too drive a weather worn, banged up car, but it gets 32 mpg, so I'm good.

In this case, however, we are talking about the "image" of police attacking protesters, and the protesters are protecting themselves with the U.S. Constitution. The "image" of police going 'through' the Constitution to get to protesters would indeed be priceless.

[-] 2 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

police brutality is a good plank for OWS to put pressure on. Lets see what OWS can do to the level of police control in this police state. Make the cops personally responsible for people they beat senseless with their sticks and clubs can OWS make any kind of change to how the police treat us? in other countries they do act differently than here, here they are like military.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

The imagery thing is more about creating sympathy for and towards the protesters...

If we can get police to attack or have to 'go through' the U.S. Constitution in order to get to the protesters, I think we have won the public debate, as to who's right and who's wrong.

[-] 2 points by VERUM (108) 3 years ago

Thumbs up!

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Thank You, for your support...

[-] 2 points by ithink (761) from York, PA 3 years ago

I second

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Thank you...

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I've never attended a GA... :( More's the pity.


Does the OWS Movement recognize "Motions"...?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

UPDATE:

No progress has been made in getting this Motion passed.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

"Solution slogans"...

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"Mic Check"!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Who's Mike?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I thought you might consider it a "slogan" (guess not) that occupy has popularized and is recognized by.

No?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Oh "Mic Check"...

You didn't really think there was a "Mike", did you?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well in fact I'm sure there are many Mikes. I have a brother & a couple of cousins named Mike. There is just no connection between the name & the communication model used at OWS meetings.

Just a brain fart on my part.

Anyway, heres a couple more slogans for you.

"lost my job, found an occupation"

"do you feel it trickle down" (I like that one.)

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

"Free Meds, End the Fed"

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Oooooh. I never heard the meds part of that one.

"not anti capital, just anti theft"

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I like the wrapping of the constitution part, that would spark some interest from the public.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I intended for protesters to protect themselves "literally" with the Constitution, so that in order to injure them, police would have to again "literally" have to go 'through' the U.S.Constitution to do so...

So that the battery was going on to both protesters AND the Constitution.

It is all about symbolism...

[-] 1 points by OTP (-203) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

Wow, I have to say, that is freakin awesome.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Remember the image of the protester being pepper sprayed as she shouted at the cops in Seattle, Washington?

I think it was Seattle...and that image went national...

I thought OWS protesters protecting themselves with Constitutions while being battered by police would be equally dramatic.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Cool. We are working on helping the 99% & getting things DONE. Not created symbolism for beatings by police.

Good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I am working to see to it that each march or protest accomplishes 3 things- makes the world a better place in some small but noticeable way, carries a unified message, and protects protesters with the Constitution...please help if you can.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

No conformity. Diversity is our strength!

You are free to pass out Constitutions if you like.

Good luck in all your good efforts.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

No conformity???

1000 people all yelling a different message to one guy on a corner CAN'T be heard.

That same 1000 people all yelling THE SAME message can be heard by millions...

Diverse messages within the same march is a wasted massing.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

We HAVE been heard by the whole country, and the whole planet.

I suppose only one guy (KofA?) ain't heard us. LOL

You gotta listen better.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Are you missing my point intentionally?

"We are the 99%"...okay...what else? Got any solution slogans that Joe Q public would recognize?

Clearly, 'I' have heard of you/OWS, I have been here since close to the beginning.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"slogans"? There are other slogans, but I don't think this is the best measure.

The public most definitely recognize us. I just read (on OWS what have we done site) That2/3 of population understand/recognize/are discussing/are concerned with the income disparity between the 1% & 99%.

The country NOW cares about the obscene destructive concentration of wealth in the 1%.

This is critical. The national dialogue has been changed, We did that, And it is critical that that happens 1st in order for us to then gather support to correct this serious problems.

But if you've been here so long you must have heard other slogans. No?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

"They got bailed out we got &^%*"...?

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

That's a good one!

"whose streets?, OUR streets!!"

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Have there been any GA's to take this up?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Bump

Has anyone manage to get this through a GA?

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

UPDATE

The Occupy Dallas camp failed to pass ANY version of this Motion.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Hi K! I still think this is a wonderful idea. What's the big issue with this? What's the required vote for passage? 90%?

There must be some people there that like it. Maybe you could approach it differently. Rather than trying to get it passed, maybe you should just move forward with it with whatever participants like the idea. I'd do it if I was there. You have every right to act "autonomously". You don't really need them to pass it. Just do it.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

Hey April, how goes it? Just so that you know your $20 went to "Loose Change Loose Chains- http://www.ijm.org/get-involved/youth.


I am back in college, so I haven't really had the time to play Occupy Protester, lately.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

You're a sweetheart K. Sounds like an excellent choice.

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

Lemme get this straight. So:

Premise) People on this forum disagree with/don't care about KofA's idea.

Conclusion) OWS is too disorganized and doomed to failure.

Hmm...

Have you ever considered the possibility that it's just a bad idea? That KofA doesn't have the answers?

Just a possibility.

Cheers.

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

It isn't that they didn't like MY idea, it is that they don't like ideas that "unify them in message", if they are about working within the system.

OWS failure to pass this Motion isn't about ME, it's about them not wanting to accomplish anything.

What do you not like about my Motion?

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

So you are just repeating your original premise.

If we don't agree to your ideas then we must "not want to accomplish anything."

I'll ask you again: Have you considered the possibility that you don't have the answer? That it's just not a good idea?

<<if they are about working within the system.>>

We aren't. The system is fake. It's their to pacify you. To have you run on a hamster wheel---meaningless rituals that cannot change anything. OWS works out-side and against the system.

This isn't ineffective---lobbying congress is ineffective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

Actually lobbying Congress has been very effective. Or we wouldn't be in the hot mess we're in now.

[-] 0 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

If you have billions of dollars to buy politicians off...sure.

Which is to say:

Lobbying works FOR the 1%---not for us.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

But it does work. : )

Fairly simple solution. Just not so simple to implement.

http://abolishcorporatepersonhoodnow.org/

http://www.change.org/petitions/pass-the-human-rights-amendment

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

<<<But it does work. : ) >>>>

It has yet to. For two reasons:

1) Lobbying is not going to succeed in getting these amendments (like Bernie Sanders amendment for instance) passed---because the problem they are intended to address is the very problem preventing legislation like these amendments IN THE FIRST PLACE.

2) Corporate personhood ( or citizens united or whatever) are really only just glaringly obvious details. They are a small (but especially egregious) part of a much larger problem. Plutocracy existed before them and would still exist if they where abolished. I'm skeptical that it would even put a significant dent really.

If voting and writing congresspeople could change anything it would be illegal. It's just a ritual meant to divert our energy away from real direct action. The only thing that is going to bring actual change is organizing a revolutionary social moment: http://player.vimeo.com/video/39343213?title=0&byline=0&portrait=0

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 2 years ago

I agree with you, change has to come from the bottom up. But every bit helps. I think it's more about education, understanding what a good amendment should look like,what the important elements are, in order to solve the problem. Not rely on our government for such a thing, like Mr. Zinn tells us. Wonderful clip btw. I really like Bill Moyers. I had not seen this interview. So thanks for sharing. I'll seach around to see the whole interview.

Plato said that all Republics, left unchecked, become oligarchs. To maintain the Republic, we must always be working to keep it in check. Again, like Mr. Zinn suggests, our government is not the 3 branches. It's all of us. We've left it unchecked. Our problems shouldn't come as any surprise.

I think Campaign Reform, removing money from elections, would solve most all our problems. Of course, we would still have to work to ensure oligarchy doesn't creep in again. That's just the nature of a Republic.

I think it's selfish that OWS doesn't focus it's efforts on this. Something realistic and achievable. That would help so many people. But the truth is, achieving CFR would be against OWS self interests. Because then people could solve their problems through government, as it should be. And OWS would be mostly irrelevant.

OWS exists to keep it's visions of direct democracy in existance. That is not what most people want. 80% of the population supports CFR. But for some strange reason, OWS ptb seems to want to dictate what OWS ptb thinks the rest of us need.

[-] 0 points by FriendlyObserverB (1871) 2 years ago

lol !

[-] 1 points by KofAV (29) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

The only thing I can suggest to you is that you do SOMETHING to affect positive change. BECOME the change you seek. BE the example.

My Motion sought to unify marches in message, 'accomplish' a task, and protect protesters with the Constitution...

"What is WRONG with this premise?"

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

What's wrong are your poor attempts at condescension. Your insinuation that others are not doing "SOMETHING". That we have not, or are unwilling to, "accomplish anything" because we don't like your ideas.

Incidentally, at least a few of your ideas ("protect protesters with the Constitution") are a naive fantasy. Not everyone lives in your sheltered world of white-privilege---we understand the plain reality about our supposed "rights" and "democracy".

Maybe you ought to learn more about the false narrative of American National mythology. About the Bill of rights, and about how "This Great Nation" wasn't founded on liberty, but slavery and genocide.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

oh no

there's a whole category Why OWS will fail

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

Oh. I see.

It will fail because no one will listen MattLholck's bad ideas. Clearly.

If only we were organized and wise enough to follow all this great advice.

Why, we might be able to create a global protest movement that radically alters the entire political discourse and raises mass popular class consciousness.

Or something like that.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

People on this forum disagree

Conclusion) OWS is too disorganized and doomed to failure.

many agree it will fail

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

Many people have been saying that since day one (sept 17). We were supposed to be gone in a week.

We've already exceeded all our original projections and expectations---and we have shown no sign of stopping whatsoever.

Spreading FUD ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt ) hasn't worked for anyone else.

The wall street journal tried this many times: http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/lxmhi/occupy_wall_street_is_99_dead_wsj_since_when_does/

A few weeks after the declaration of our demise we came out with our largest demonstrations yet (with tens of thousands in NYC alone).

Maybe you guys should try a different strategy to discourage us. We aren't buying it.

And we aren't going anywhere.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I can report "zero" progress, as of Tuesday December 13, 2011.

Up fingers as far as the eye can see, but no Ga has 'passed' the Motion.

[-] 1 points by EricBlair (447) 2 years ago

Good.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

can we hug a tree also as a 4th? guys please aim higher this has the potential to actually achieve the change whats his name keeps talking about.

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Excuse me, this Motion is a "tool FOR change"... Individual protesters within a given march decide 'what' their message and action will be.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

you are all lost

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Then show me a map, asshole...

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

look closely, right there!.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

how silly, OWS has shrunk just a little now

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Do you mind me asking what you think is "silly"...?

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

now that i understand more about OWS i think OWS is silly

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Trying to do everything sans accountable leadership, is "silly"...IMHO.

[-] 1 points by jjuussttmmee (607) 3 years ago

silly

[-] 1 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

It is still silly...

[-] 1 points by Evabodine (18) from New York, NY 3 years ago

I'm sorry, your motion won't do anything to actually further the cause, which I admit is varied. But if no one was camping out, there would be no reason to clean up. Cleaning up after ourselves is common courtesy, not activism.

Constitutional Shields are costly, and a waste of time-- Who's going to read them? Us? We already know our rights, and if we don't, that's what the internet is for. Printing it up is wasteful, and not addressing the economy or the protest against Wall Street.

And obviously protesters are already there, so that's redundant.

Come up with something that further's the cause, and I'll support you!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Thank you for your response, but you didn't read it as carefully as I would have liked.

First, the Motion doesn't say we should ONLY clean up after ourselves. It says that all marches should include an "Action", so that everywhere the march goes, protesters are taking direct action to make the world a better or cleaner place.

Second the Constitutional Shields do "2" things. One side is for the day's march message, and the Constitutional side is for literal and actual protection. Just imagine the imagery produced by having law enforcement literally attacking the U.S. Constitution?

We will 'further' our cause, by drawing more people to it, and showing the world that we mean to take direct action to make the world a better place.

IMHO :)

[-] 1 points by VTSupportsYou (108) 3 years ago

Seconded or thirded or fourthed. Whatever you need at the moment. =)

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Well...Let's run this thing how 'I' would run a meeting, shall we?

We have a Motion, and a second. It is now up for discusion AND "amendment".

Is there anything about the Motion that should be changed or altered, so that it better serves its purpose?

[-] 1 points by VTSupportsYou (108) 3 years ago

As an additional action I would like to add "Each protester makes compassionate contact with an individual they would normally avoid - cop, anti-OWS, conservative etc.

For more on compassion read the Dalai Lama's "My Spiritual Journey."

Thank you for opening the dialogue KofA.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

How would you 'amend' the original Motion to include your prinicple?

How about:

"I move that all OWS Protests be composed of 3 elements- Protesters, Constitutional Shields (A cardboard or paper shield embossed with the U.S. Constitution on one side, and a blank space on the other for the day's march message.), and an Action (Trash Pick-up, Street Sweeping, Compasionate Acts, or Volunteer-ism). Such that each march accomplishes 3 things- makes the world a cleaner place, carries a unified message, and protects protesters with the Constitution."

IF you have a 'better' amendment, please feel free to offer it up, I am just trying to interpret what you meant... :)

[-] 1 points by guitarmywin (158) 3 years ago

I second the motion. Great suggestion.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I now have "2" seconds...

The Motion is "here & now" open for discussion and amendment...

[-] 1 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

With a real majority vote you would lose. Also by a two thirds vote.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Why SHOULDN'T this Motion be passed immediately?

[-] 1 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

Because if you want true democracy, you wouldn't get the votes you needed.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

"True democracy"...?

In a democracy, a 'simply' majority is all that's needed. This general consensus, 98% approval thing is THE reason NOTHING is getting done.

My Motion would protect protesters, create real positive change, AND provide marchers with a message of THEIR choice.

How could ANYONE disagree with that?

[-] 0 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

Even if its 49.5 to 50.5 you do not have the support to win. Nobody cares about any of the whining going on. Just to be clear, not everyone agrees with the messages.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Did you read my Motion, at all???

[-] 0 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

Yes I did and it was loving and inspiring(sarcasm). Also a lot of people are lazy so why would they want to pick up trash?

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Picking up trash was just an example of a "direct action", that would make an immediate difference to the world...

Have everyone wear the same messaged t-shirt, and have the protesters donate blood to teh Red Cross, or do ANY volunteer work in the name of OWS.

[-] 0 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

Well that was just the example you gave. My point still stands. Why would people want to do any of that?

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

"To make an IMMEDIATE positive difference in the world."

[-] 1 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

How will that help get money out of government or the other causes OWS preaches?

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

So is THAT the main push now?

I thought we were just trying to get attention?

My Motion is all about creating 'images' everyone can agree with...

[-] 0 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

I honestly don't know what the push is. I've been trying to figure it out for over 3 weeks.

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I've been around for about 7 weeks, and I haven't figured it out either...

[-] 0 points by kingscrosssection (314) 3 years ago

Hmmm. I think this is a problem

[-] 1 points by Phanya2011 (908) from Tucson, AZ 3 years ago

Excellent suggestions.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Thanks, Phanya2011.

If you are going to a GA anytime soon, I'd greatly appreciate your submitting this Motion, in my stead.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

The physical element shield boards is functional on it's own

the other functions can follow

is there a reasonable way laminate to boards?

just leave on side blank and other with the constitution

what is the physical cost of producing such a shield ?

.

the shields could have clothe handles

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Well, it COULD be just cardboard with markers...

I have been constructing a set of such shields out of foam board, which is more sturdy or durable than mere cardboard. I plan to embossed an actual Constitution to one side, which will cost about $5 per unit, as the foam board isn't cheap. The Constitutions can be 'copies' of a original...

[-] 1 points by sadiemay (8) from Carlsbad, TX 3 years ago

Why not use 1/4" plywood?

A 4' x 8' sheet would cost about $10 (or less), and yield twelve 16" x 24" shields.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

That sounds like an 'actual shield', that would provide real protection...

I was looking for more of a symbolic "Constitutional protection"...

That said, your supportive input is greatly appreciated, and I'd like to encourage you to protect you and your fellow protesters with ANY Constitutional Shielding you can muster.

[-] 1 points by sadiemay (8) from Carlsbad, TX 3 years ago

Thanks, KofA - I was mainly considering cost and expediency... though I'm unopposed to the unintended side effect that a rubber bullet might be deflected.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

:) Well, I'd like to encourage you to shield yourself with 'some version' of a Constitutional Shield.

*The Tree of Liberty must be fed by the blood of patriots, they say.

[-] 1 points by sadiemay (8) from Carlsbad, TX 3 years ago

drill holes and run a length of knotted cord through them for a handle, and use cheap latex paint as a paste for The Constitution....

Should be able to produce them for approx. $2 ea (probably less).

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 3 years ago

do you have a foam board press?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I don't even know what that is... I DO have a friend who owns an art supply store, who recommended foam board as a reusable tool for such projects.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

So I have a Motion, with a 2nd...

Now what?

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by CCNN (8) from Walla Walla, WA 2 years ago

Anarchist bullshit.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

"Anarchist"...?

Really???

Which part?

[-] 0 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 2 years ago

AMENDED

[-] 0 points by KofAII (61) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago
[-] 1 points by KofAIII (234) 2 years ago

Did NOT receive consensus, at the Occupy Dallas GA.

[-] 0 points by classicliberal (312) 3 years ago

"Pick up trash"??? What are we, the Tea Party?

Ppsh.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

The Tea Party picked up trash???

[-] 1 points by classicliberal (312) 3 years ago

Yes. After their D.C. protest, the mall was spotless.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

They picked up 'their own' trash, or rather left none to begin with, right?

'I' want OWS marches to 'accomplish' 3 things, one of which being a direct action to change the world for the positive. This could be any number of things like: Sweeping the street, picking up trash, or a group of protesters all wearing the same march message, and then volunteering at a local charity organization.

*What if a group of rotating OWS protesters showed up at the Red Cross EVERY day to donate blood???

BLEEDING for our cause in a manner we volunteer for AND when cops beat people...are you kidding me, we'll have this thing licked by Spring!

[Removed]

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by owsrulez (75) 3 years ago

We would gain too much respect and our message would be too positive.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Let's give it a shot, and see!?

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 3 years ago

This is an interesting idea.

What is most appealing is the clear multi-tasking approach to messaging. This is vital.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Thanks, ZenDog.

Are you going to a GA anytime soon?

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 3 years ago

I'm not sure - I've still got a lot to do to get ready for snow - and we have snow already.

I might go Sunday.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

If and when you DO attend a GA, would you make this Motion, in my stead?

It would be greatly appreciated. :)

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 3 years ago

Will do.

z

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Thank you VERY much "z".

Be Well.

[-] 1 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 3 years ago

You too - happy turkey day.

[-] -1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Good idea! A message about defense of the constitution which is uniform will give continuity to the effort and provide protection from law enforcement. Something like this might provide a comprehensive position.

If Article V had been dutifully provided in 1911, we would not be here now

The biggest most controlling issue needs to be up front with each protest, and of course some protests have to be focused on that directly, where other protests are simply dealing with the side effects of that dominant issue or cause of problems.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Thanks, and further support or sponsorship you could offer would be heartfully appreciated.

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Do you have a website or forum dedicated to this concept? I would suggest this free host.

http://www.hostingphpbb.com/

Count on my participation and promotion. This is clearest idea for street unity that also invokes the law of the land overtly.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

A website...? I never considered that.

How might the website function, what would it do, and what should it accomplish?

Do I 'need' a website to get OWS to adopt this as a common practice?

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

With independent involvement in the strategy, it's possible that ows leadership will follow the leaders. As it is, they appear to want to abandon the constitution in favor of some undefined governmental structure based in socialistic or anarchistic principles.

Accordingly your proposal has huge functional potential, and if the demands are important to be met, and the word can reach far enough, the people will lead ows with logic, reason and law.

A forum is the best place to start because involvement is immediately registered.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

I don't mind the socialism, it is the anarchistic elements that befuddle me. We HAVE a great governing system, we just need to employ it more effectively. This is a democratic republic, wherein we GET the government we deserve...

In any case, so you suggest I create what exactly? An independent semi-OWS site that promotes this practice?

Why can't THIS THREAD function as that tool?

OR...do you want to see video of actual demonstrations taking these actions...? A lead by actual example sort of thing?

[-] 0 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

This thread or forum could act that way. However, I've seen some technical censorship which might get in the way.

Without a solid set of principles comprising a proposed republic, I would suggest it's best to use this one and AMEND the principles. That way there is no issue of overthrow.

It's legal process, Article V.

[-] 2 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

While I'll openly admit that I too have seen outright censorship occur here, I can only hope that 'established' notions can't or won't get deleted...

So, what do you suppose I create, exactly?

[-] 1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Approach is everything. I'll admit I'm not sure what is the best so am trying out different aspects that are inherently a part of the people controlling Article V.

The preparatory amendment most needed ends the abridging of free speech. The justification for this is a deeply human thing rooted in a simple fact. Information needed for survival must be shared and understood.

Here I make a case for human instinctual continuity and demonstrate that only a person who is a parent can be an authority when it comes to rejecting free speech, sharing, understanding and survival. I'm asking some posters that are women to be accountable for this instinctual position.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/gunself-control/#comment-896428 http://occupywallst.org/forum/this-forum-is-no-longer-recognized-by-occupy/#comment-896398

bensdad was also asked to indicate which mother and father would ignore of pass the real opportunity to see free speech, sharing, understanding and survival benefit their children.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/action-petition-alec-to-make-a-statement-about-the/#comment-903008

They all failed to respond. WHY? I would say it is because to respond draws attention to the weakness of their position. Better to let it die and go on pretending that the politics which are known are the only politics.

More recently, after realizing there were a number of posters here referring to some group called ALEC who says they support Article V and trying to associate me with them, I developed some strategy. Logic-IF they support Article V THEN they will love preparatory amendment. So I started an online petition for activists to request comment from authority about preparatory amendment, then made a thread about it.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/action-petition-alec-to-make-a-statement-about-the/#comment-902992

Basically, the truth about ALEC and whether they want an Article V convention is the product. A decent test of them to see if they want a "constitutional convention" or an "unconstitutional convention" which is used to make people afraid of Article V.

In summary, preparatory amendment and this issue of free speech take OUR politics out of THEIR box. In order to participate, they have to be human and recognize constitutional intent. It's A PURIFICATION procedure that is societally conducted.

My request for mothers and fathers that will give up their children's futures, where info needed for survival is shared and understood, is the same kind of thing. Notice the likely reason; those asked decided they would fail socially if they tried to oppose what is instinct, so to continue acting on their beliefs they declined to respond.

When Americans participate in this, it creates a real appreciation for constitutional intent. That is what controls Article V, and it's not likely that 3/4 of the states legislations could be compelled to ratify if the people of the states were not VERY passionate and active in control of their legislators.

This is the kind of thing that can do it. This is ours, the peoples. We regain control of the federal government by amending the constitution specifically to end all the neglect and non feasance the corruptions are causing. This approach removes the politics from partisan control and distraction from issue driven hype.

Occupy congress would be a logical start, but then simply getting out of the box and demonstrating how it works from citizens of states upon their legislators is probably more direct.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 1 year ago

Whoa...that certainly was a mouthful. Although, admittedly it feels like a copy and paste, with little to do with the OP.

[-] -1 points by rayolite (461) 1 year ago

Not a copy and paste. It extends my first post into a description of the underlying problem we both face. A complete lack of education about constitutional intent. The lack of education is used as a point of confusion to prevent unity. Now education is really difficult because people have been made to think that the US constitution is something that the right wing are going to use to enslave people as they have been.

They don't realize that the slow demise of the constitution is what is causing their demise. As it is eroded, they have less and less protection from official abuse.

Accordingly, some temporary consolidation might be achieved bhy fitting into the socialistic thrust that ows has engendered, but anything that leaves out overt protection for the constitution will be used to make the movement appear as an unlawful rebellion.

What I've shown is the true problem. Perfectly good right wing women cannot answer and state they want their children to grow in a nation where speech creating understanding that protects life is honored and used.

The left wing women are too confused and fearful of leaving the social structure of ows to agree. There's the real problem and by addressing this here comprehensively, a solution is started.

[+] -7 points by Glaucon (296) 3 years ago

You want protesters to sweep Wall Street for free like slaves while the bankers work up in the sky scrappers and make big bucks? Is that how revolutions start?

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I want OWS to begin taking direct action(s) to make the world a better cleaner place...I want 'us' to be protected by the Constitution, and I want us to speak with a unified message...

I want us to lead by example, and I want us to become the change we seek.

Slaves are FORCED to work... This revolution isn't 'doing' anything but occupying public space. How is that inspiring???

[+] -4 points by Glaucon (296) 3 years ago

True. OK, so you'll be voluntarily sweeping the crap on Wall Street for no renumeration while the bankers work up in the sky scrappers and make big bucks?

I'm just toying with you. I actually suggested something very similar about two weeks ago, but everyone just laughed off the idea.

[-] 2 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 3 years ago

I enjoyed the snippet of video of the scrubbing of the park by the OWS there, some time before the removal. It didn't get much news coverage, of course, because it was constructive. It got one brief mention in conjunction with a few occupiers pretending to do close order mopping: Present Mops!!

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

If EVERY march produced a cleaner world, at least we'd have a defense against charges that we aren't keeping the camps clean...

If we kept camps AND the rest of the world clean, wouldn't we be seen asset to the community???

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 3 years ago

While it would be good to do, it would not prevent the charges. Mentally ill people who had no OWS participation were portrayed as representing OWS, for example, in the video accusing OWS of being anti-jewish.

Still, I'd encourage cleanliness.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

We can't control what stories people choose to cover, but we CAN give them a better selection of stories from which to choose from...

We CAN and SHOULD become the change we seek

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I've been working to get this Motion passed at a GA for about 6 weeks now... No luck yet.

Any support you could lend would be greatly appreciated.

[+] -5 points by Glaucon (296) 3 years ago

Something like this would never pass at the GA. Occupy wants a revolution. They are inspired by the Arab Spring protests which have toppled three government till now. They want to use direct action to force standoffs with police, they don't want to sweep parks.

My idea was that Occupy should create volunteer groups and help out around the community. Things like helping the homeless, cleaning parks, giving presentations in schools, etc... The idea was laughed at up and down and side to side. No go. Occupy is not a charity organization, it's only interested in direct action.

The GA only passes ideas that the anarco-communists agree with.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Revolutions need to inspire others, so that the movement 'grows'...

Becoming the example is the best way 'I' know to do that.

My Motion 'includes' volunteer brigades, as an Action option. That said, I'll concede that I have had great difficulty getting this Motion passed... :(

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 3 years ago

If you can setup your volunteers in situations where they have a high chance of being confronted by riot police to make some more OWS vs. police clash videos, then I guarantee your idea will pass. That's the phase Occupy is in at the moment. They got a lot of traction from the Pepper Spray Cop video and Internet meme, and they want to follow that with more before the energy dies down. If they can get a few more cops entangled in court cases, then they will have won a small battle on that front.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

Traction isn't change...

We HAVE to begin presenting real solutions, and becoming a god example. The Police are going to figure out violence won't work, then were are you gonna be???

The OWS movement ALREADY HAS 'enough' civil rights violation cases to make in court... What we need now is a real plan to start making some positive change.

[-] 1 points by cmt (1195) from Tolland, CT 3 years ago

How many GA's have you attended? How many places?

I've never had a chance to go to one.

[-] 1 points by KofA (495) from Muenster, TX 3 years ago

I missed the GA's both times I visited the Occupy Dallas camp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL8C-bNl29I). I also missed the GA at the Occupy Denton camp. :(

Most of my efforts have been internet based.

[-] 0 points by Glaucon (296) 3 years ago

Iv'e never attended one. I'm in Bali, Indonesia. However, I have a close friend attending in Occupy Montréal and I have diligently read the minutes for both OWS and Occupy Montréal.