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Forum Post: Hatred, Hatred, Hatred . . . Is That All There Is?

Posted 12 years ago on Jan. 14, 2012, 9:25 p.m. EST by GypsyKing (8708)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I have the feeling sometimes that no matter how hard we try, all we ever manage to do is become further entrenched in warring camps. Where will all this end? Is there no way for humanity to ever bridge the differing conceptions that divide us? Sometimes I think the problem lies in the process of human thought itself, that the way in which we come to understand is through making distinctions, and the harder we grope to understand one another the more distinctions we are forced to make, and therefore the result - counter to all our efforts - is simply to divide us further until we are left facing one another like hostile baboons.

Is this all there is? Is this all there can ever be? If that is true than the outcome is inescapable. Will our great, great, great grandchildren have to try to pick up the pieces again and go forward? Would there be reason for them to bother?

We are at the most unbelievable moment in time, when humanity really comes to the final question. We are participants in the greatest moment in all of history. We can no longer run from one another, we can no longer hide. We must face the question of whether we can live with one another or face oblivion. The choice is ours, what will it be?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FodfkqfJrhQ

277 Comments

277 Comments


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[-] 5 points by Odin (583) 12 years ago

There never was a time where humanity acted in perfect harmony. The best we can do is have our institutions set up in a way where they have accountability, and to have a government and its people that care for the most vulnerable in our society. Other than that we just have to surround ourselves with like-minded people which to a big degree we are doing here.

[-] 2 points by valfather (286) 12 years ago

Some people try to surround themselves with their like minded. I just try to surround myself with the minded.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 12 years ago

Great point. Try not to argue with idiots. After a few minutes no one can decide which one is the idiot.

[-] 1 points by OurTimes2011 (377) from Arlington, VA 12 years ago

Wrong again. When there were only two people, humanity acted in harmony. I could explain, but why bother?

[-] 1 points by OurTimes2011 (377) from Arlington, VA 12 years ago

Wrong. Define perfect harmony.

[-] 1 points by JamesS89118 (646) from Las Vegas, NV 12 years ago

Abba.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 12 years ago

When you choose to write thoughtful comments without giving me orders, I will respond to them in the same way. You could start by telling me why you think I am wrong. I will answer you later today providing your comment is civil.

[-] 1 points by DiMasciosBridge (170) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

Like-minded? YES! In that....WE'RE ALL CRAZY! Really. To some degree, all of us are insane, however only the most intelligent will even begin to explore the truth behind it. One day I saw a "crazy" lady putting a flower in her hair and talking up to the sky by herself. The folks around me all said..."She's crazy". Minutes later they were all in church, looking toward the sky and..."thanking the Lord" for their sanity.

I am 48 years of hope hoping for hope that things will eventually get better I am almost a half-century's worth of being sick and tired of being sick and tired and quite frankly I am sick and tired of it I am desperate for purpose I think fairness is a plate of food and a warm bed for all I think people should be recognized and loved not discarded I think an awful lot about living but I’m almost anxious to die I want to make more of an impact not minimum wage I want to make friends I want to make a difference I do what I can to improve my life and try to improve on others I do not give up or quit I do think I can make it though if only I'd get noticed I hate the fact that I don’t count I hate mirrors that look at me (most days) I hate that I hate I wish for drastic change (at least for 99% of us) I wish I wasn’t me (most times) I wish I would’ve wished for wishes (I just used up all 3) I know it will get better though because it cant get any worse (I know I’m wrong on that one) I know you probably agree I am grateful though I am grateful for you I am grateful for the 99% I thank you all I thank you for your service and your message of hope I thank you for sharing the pathway to purpose I am now on that path I am being counted I am...the 99% ( Ihad to post this here because the NEW "establishment"...the Occupy Movement has decided to sensor me and I imagine many others). How sad.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

We are the same age, and share the same feelings. Life is short, why, oh why, must we waste so much of it repeating the same mistakes over and over again? A moment of insight could save us lifetimes of struggle, sadness, and disillusionment. I can only conclude that some people thrive on hatred and division.

The truth is, the ruling class in America today; those who cause all this pointless struggle in the lives of people here and abroad don't even know what's in their own best interests. If they did they wouldn't destroy their own future for short-term gain. We are running at 90 miles an hour down a dead-end road.

These are the people who "lead" us.

[-] 1 points by debndan (1145) 12 years ago

Don't buy into it Gypsy, DiMascios is a troll, he's used many other aliases in the past. I forgot this and responded to a post of his(almost identical ) the other day

he admitted to being proslavery

He's been censored here only for breaking the rules

He is a race baiter and a liar, probably the king of the trolls(and wacko)

Don't buy into his bullshit

Also Great chapman song link, that was good

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

Actually it's kind of funny how serious this guy is. "Don't buy into his bullshit"...like anyone would, it's too crazy! Which is why it's gold! :)

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

LOL he's pretty much the best poster on this entire message board. You all take yourselves way too seriously. He's hilarious.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Thanks, that is my favorite Chapman song - great fan of hers.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I didn't notice the link when I first posted here. I love Tracy Chapman, too. She is so soulful. "Sorry" is probably my favorite.

[-] 2 points by Hopeforpeace (4) from New York, NY 12 years ago

i allmost wept when i read what you had to say, i feel so similar. But don't give up you are beautiful on the inside that's the only thing that truly matters! your soul shines brighter then a thousand suns! you're not alone i am with you! and so is countless others! all bad things must come to an end :)

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Yes, all things bad do finally come to an end, even hatred.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 12 years ago

Thank You for your thoughtful reply. The Occupy movemenmt is about 'hope', and I urge you never to give up. I won't, and you do not want to be bested by someone who is older than you, well do you?! Just by being here and a part of all this, you and I and all the others are definitely are making a difference, especially at this early stage. It truly is a profound one. All of the heartfelt sentiments that are in your post are ones that all of us in this movement share.

Although I avoid shopping at Walmart, I needed long-johns one day, so I just did the easy thing, and went there. While in there, with Christmas music playing in the background, and people scurrying around buying a bunch of crap that they or their loved ones didn't need, I started to think. How many people here (in this Walmart) have ever, in their whole life, fought for something that they belive in, ESPECIALLY at a time when it is for a cause that is still not embraced by the majority of the people? I suspect the answer is very few, if any. We are surrounded by such courageous people at OWS and we should feel very lucky that we are!! I told this story to a young friend who is very involved in this movement when she was feeling down about the infighting that was going on at OWS at the time. I know that it made a positve difference to her and I hope it does to you too, at least in some small way.

I just came back from walking with a group of OWS people from one end of Manhattan to the other, ending up at Riverside Church where many well-known people spoke and while others sang songs. It was to commemorate Martin Luther King's birthday, and it was very inspirational. I proudly wore a three inch red, white, and blue button that my Dad got at MLK's 1963 March on Washington. It said Equal Rights in '63. I humbly tell you that it took me a long time to realize the full impact of what he did then, leaving the comfort and the ignorance of white America to stand up for what he believed in.

Just like MLK had to fight the injustices in the Jim Crow era, we have to fight for a government that is fair and just and that does not put corporations' and bankers' interests ahead of the people's interest. Put simply, WE ALL WANT PEOPLE TO 'MATTER.' That's what 'this' is all about. That means you and I both. COOL EH!? Rest assured that you are in the right place, and Thank You for being a part of this.

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

In all seriousness though, I realized that infighting is a natural result of the heretofore suppression of speech in our communities. Now that we can speak, we think we have to yell, we think everybody is going to yell over us, we're basically like panicking parents sending their kids off to live alone. I treat Occupy just like it's my baby. I wonder where it is at night and what it is doing, I try to give it sage advice, I want to know who it's friends are and I have an opinion on all of them, and I just want it to be happy and grow successfully. :) It's my baby.

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 12 years ago

You sound even more paternal than me! I will humbly admit though that some of the advice that I gave my kids......well I"m glad they didn't listen to, and I get this sinking feeling that OWS has done pretty good without my advice. Am I becoming irrelevant??

We share the sentiment of wanting OWS "to be happy and grow successfully." Would have joined OWS a lot sooner had I not been taking care of my 'grandbaby' (which is why I am here) in Alaska for five weeks (fifty hours a week). I make a 'mean' blueberry, apple, pear sauce. I was known as the 'Manny' back then, but I wrestled grizzlies on the week-ends to keep my testoserome level up.

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

Most people literally have the mind of a child. I was content to shop at WalMart, I enjoyed it even, until I hit puberty and became a thinking adult. Then I was instantly smarter than almost everyone that shops at WalMart.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 12 years ago

"When I was 16 I was appalled at how stupid my parents were. When I was 21 I was surprised at how much they had learned in 5 short years " Paraphrased from Samuel Clemens. ( And who is that?)

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

Yeah. I realize more and more that my mom is usually right about every fucking thing.

[-] 1 points by JamesS89118 (646) from Las Vegas, NV 12 years ago

Call a Scientist! We've got the life-cycle of the Troll!!!

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

All that those of us with the genuine interests of humanity in our hearts can do to fight hatred is persist - persist by example. That is why those who stood against the paid thugs in NY will never be forgotten, because those who would say that they did it only for themselves only expose their own selfishness.

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

Me and my friend realized that when people think this is real, they prove your point, if you're trying to make one, that people are way too serious and need to lighten up. This person wrote like a short essay. I was posting stuff on facebook about how I will not succumb to pessimism and stuff but even that is taking things too seriously probably. Also, I love how your comments kinda make sense but not really, they are really just negative word salad. It's totally like some of the bull shit people would write on here. 100/10. Amazing.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

HAMLET 272 Beggar that I am, I am even poor in thanks; but I 273 thank you: and sure, dear friends, my thanks are 274 too dear a halfpenny. Were you not sent for? Is it 275 your own inclining? Is it a free visitation? Come, 276 deal justly with me: come, come; nay, speak.

  GUILDENSTERN

277 What should we say, my lord?

  HAMLET

278 Why, anything, but to th' purpose. You were sent 279 for; and there is a kind of confession in your looks 280 which your modesties have not craft enough to color: 281 I know the good king and queen have sent for you.

  ROSENCRANTZ

282 To what end, my lord?

  HAMLET

283 That you must teach me. But let me conjure you, by 284 the rights of our fellowship, by the consonancy of 285 our youth, by the obligation of our ever-preserved 286 love, and by what more dear a better proposer could 287 charge you withal, be even and direct with me, 288 whether you were sent for, or no?

  ROSENCRANTZ [Aside to Guildenstern.]

289 What say you?

  HAMLET [Aside.]

290 Nay, then, I have an eye of you.—If you 291 love me, hold not off.

  GUILDENSTERN

292 My lord, we were sent for.

  HAMLET

293 I will tell you why; so shall my anticipation prevent 294 your discovery, and your secrecy to the king and 295 queen moult no feather. I have of late—but wherefore 296 I know not—lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of 297 exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily with my 298 disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to 299 me a sterile promontory, this most excellent canopy, 300 the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, 301 this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, 302 it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent 303 congregation of vapors. What a piece of work is a man! 304 How noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, 305 in form and moving how express and admirable, 306 in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like 307 a god! The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals! 308 And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man 309 delights not me—

[-] 3 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

I think the rubber is beginning to meet the road and people during 2012 will come face to face with the inconsistency of their positions. For example, it will be hard for conservative tea partiers to unite behind their soon to be republican candidate, Mitt Romney. After all, he's the rich white collar elite guy who gutted companies.

I think people will also be forced by the situation to see the distance between their theories of how things work and the way they actually work. As the Occupy movement exposes more and more problems with the laws maintained by the corpopolitical alliance of big business and our elected leaders, it will be more and more difficult to ignore the need to get money out of politics.

To me, what we've been lacking in this republic is an informed citizenry. Things are slowly turning around on that front.

More importantly, to your point, I think it will get easier and easier to unite as occupy wall street helps make it clear that we the 99% have more in common than we have dividing us. Then instead of making demands from a position of divided weakness, we'll be making decisions from a position of united strength.

I believe there's a great awakening going on here and human beings collectively about to throw of the corporate chains that have reduced people from the enviable position of citizen to the deluded and limiting role of consumer. Once human beings lose their fear, they will overcome the nihilism that causes them to surrender to consumerism. They'll see the future and their potential role in it. They'll see that it matters.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Thanks for these uplifting sentments. I must admit that sometimes I grow weary of conflict, and find myself seeking peace and solitude. I want to cry out - just stop! Stop and see the world again for the first time, just throw off everything you think you know and start all over again, with one eye turned towards divinity, with one eye turned towards concord and not discord, with a thought for our children and our children's children! We are in this together, no matter how much we want to think we can shape the world to our own specific ends.

[-] 1 points by therising (6643) 12 years ago

Well said

[-] 3 points by debndan (1145) 12 years ago

I would tend to agree with you on this.

I believe that the GOP establishments rebranding of Mitt as a conservative and rebranding Newt Gingrich as a progressive is a water shed moment for conservatives.

What shred of credibility that the GOP had is now gone.

Conservative values like life, family, gun rights etc. are not shared by those on high. Their only value is money and greed.

The actions taken by the likes of Rush, Beck, Jack 'outsourcing' walsch, and John 'sellout' McCain to change what the meaning of conservative and progressive are was breathtaking.

And I doubt that it will be forgotten, though I warned this would and was happening months ago.

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[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

It would help if folks would stop seeing people who are different from them, such as foreigners (the Chinese, the Greeks), the poor, or immigrants, as the "other." Everyone should try to walk in the shoes of the people they don't understand or who they are afraid of.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

As Einstein said, "The nuclear age changes everything but the way people think."

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Sad, but true.

[-] 0 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

But those people ARE different from me. I like people who resemble me in key ways. That's just the way humans are. We need to live in small communities of peaceful, like-minded people. I have never been able to empathize with some people. Too different. Just trying to keep it real.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Why don't you try a little harder?

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

ha you're cool

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

That would include not seeing "the rich" as different from yourself. Something you aren't very good at BW. You're all about how people need to walk in the shoes of THOSE PEOPLE you feel sorry for, or think everyone "else" hates, but you have no interest at all in walking in the shoes of THOSE PEOPLE you don't like yourself.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

As I have said before, I do empathize with the rich. In some ways they must carry the heaviest burden of all, or at least those rich who have a conscience. The rich are not all alike, and many have been conditioned to feel that acquisitian is the only way to earn approval, and even love. That truely is very sad.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

You can only GUESS, ASSUME, or postulate that your claims about what the rich have been "conditioned" to feel is true. You have no power to crawl inside their heads and hearts and see what the view from there is. You're making judgement calls about the morals and motives of a group of people you've never even met personally-while bitching about people who do the exact same thing to "the poor".

The saddest thing I see here is that either you have NO intention whatsoever of forming your thoughts and statements and judgements from a position of being FAIR and "equal" towards ALL mankind, or you are completely oblivious to the fact that you ARE NOT doing so.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

What makes you think I've never met any of them? What makes you believe that the rich have never met anyone poor? I never said that. I never even implied that. In other words WTF are you talking about?

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Ok...you've met some of them. Have you met ALL of them? Until you have, AND have had a professional psychological evaluation performed on each one, don't you think it's the TINIEST bit arrogant to assume you KNOW that ANY of them "have been conditioned to feel that acquisitian is the only way to earn approval, and even love"??????

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

I am willing to venture that most of them are laughing inwardly at their immense power and the relative sheepiness of the poor even still.

[-] 1 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

It's impossible for everyone to get along in America because we don't have one background culture that provides us all with a similar set of values, as they have in, say, England. We are all too different. Which is why America is so weird, crazy, and different.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

You miss the point, justhefacts, as usual.

[-] -2 points by Kirby (104) 12 years ago

The last time I walked in somebody else's shoes, I got beat up for stealing. Never doing that again.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Right, Kirby, poor people are thieves. You feel very superior, but I don't see from your postings that you are.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Oh my crap. Kirby made a joke. About "walking in someone else's shoes". You lectured me yesterday about using "hyperbole" didn't you? And yet, when kirby uses hyperbole-as a joke-YOU get all nasty and declare that he "feels superior".

YOU are the biggest hypocrite here BW.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Kirby hurled a below-the-belt insult as he/she usually does at supporters of OWS on the OWS website.

And, you, justhefacts, are the most angry person here.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

But when you do that it's only hyperbole. Right?

I'm not angry. YOU don't have the ability or power to determine who or what I am. Your posts are example after example of a double standard, and yet every day I read you posting something fresh about the "double standards" of other people.

Fix yourself before you attempt to fix the world.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

My hyperbole the other night that bothered you so much was about the government. It wasn't a personal insult toward anyone. You have difficulty understanding the nuances of language. I do not.

You are the one with your head in the sand, with blinders around your eyes, refusing to come out of the cave and see the light. I'm afraid there is no help for you.

[-] 1 points by JamesS89118 (646) from Las Vegas, NV 12 years ago

The truth hurts us all in the end.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Your hyperbole today WAS directed towards someone. Kirby. And you have no problem insulting me either. This isn't about my comprehension of the nuances of language, it's about your open and obvious disregard for moral, ethical behavior.

"You are the one with your head in the sand, with blinders around your eyes, refusing to come out of the cave and see the light. I'm afraid there is no help for you."

Hyperbole or personal insult? Please explain your nuances for everyone here.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

No. Excuse me. Kirby was the one who made the hyperbole that you attacked me for. Get your facts straight, justhefacts. And, I was raised to have manners. That would mean you don't go into someone's home and attack them. Check out the url at the top of your screen. This is OWS's website. If you don't like it get off.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

So much for nuances of language. And more hypocrisy.

Miss Manners would tell you that this is not a home, it is a website. By reading the URL at the top of the screen, I can see that it is NOT YOUR website, it belongs to OWS. (Does OWS belong to you?....I missed that memo) I did not break in, nor did I even have to know the secret knock. OWS leaves the door is open and welcomes ALL people to join in the discussions here-even if they don't agree with YOU personally. If you don't like that, you should protest or "occupy" this website in order to get what you want. Or don't come here.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I forgot. You wouldn't understand metaphor, either.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I understood your metaphor just fine. You just don't like having your metaphor used against you.

[-] 2 points by ronimacarroni (1089) 12 years ago

I don't know. It seems like the natural order of things.

People get power, people abuse power, people stand up, then everything starts all over again.

But overall I think we've come a long way. Hopefully we won't experience a new dark age and have to start from scratch all over again.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I think we have come a long way, or are coming a long way, but we still have a lot further to go. The true tragedy of all of this is that there could so easily be enough, materially, for everyone. The only real deprivation is that within the human soul, and it is a really crippling one.

[-] 2 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 12 years ago

the two party political system is founded on the hatred of the other... ask Rove, he made a career exploiting it....

in the early 60's... we had a word ... "groupie" ... originally "groupie" meant someone who took sides... and blindly followed their leader...

the media.. hated it... and campaigned to change the meaning to "followers of rock bands"....

the hippies ... who were BRAVE enough to stand on their own and be their own man or women knew better ... we knew what "groupie" meant....

until we stop choosing sides... and discuss and own our "own" personal, individual ideas ... hatred will flourish ....

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Somehow we must bridge these increasingly bitter divides in this country. It seems more difficult to find ground for unity with every passing year.

[-] 1 points by JamesS89118 (646) from Las Vegas, NV 12 years ago

Unity?!? I want vengeance!

The stupid need to stop voting. 30+ years of the same ol' BS. Tax cutting and warring our way to a banana republic.

I want the American Conservative to take responsibility for their hell on earth policies. Drag the fk'ers through school yards, tied, tared and feathered. Cut their reproductive organs out and serve with wafers and wine.

How the hell do you propose revolution with so many uneducatable, obese and obtuse white people.

It's a fucking embarrassment to be a middle age white man in my own country. Off with their scalps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

And thus the cycle starts all over again. That was the insight of Ghandi and King and many others. Revenge is understandable but . . . just look at the Middle East and see where it gets us. The answer is to lift our sights to something higher than endless conflict.

[-] 1 points by JamesS89118 (646) from Las Vegas, NV 12 years ago

Yea, let me get back to you on that after a some mmj.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Sure!

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 12 years ago

These divides are essential to them and 'they' prompote them at this point in history. For all of Reagan's faults, at the end of the day, he could sit down with Tip O'neil and have a few shots of scotch with him. Maybe it is my imagination, or more probably a bad memory, but these do seem to have been better days to some degree at least. Anyway, we are not about dividing the people. That's obvious of course to us, and as long as we maintain this course, they have their hands full in trying to quell this movement.

[-] 1 points by DiMiTri (134) 12 years ago

Why the hate? We are all suffering from species wide brain damage

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-possibility-of-species-wide-brain-damage-the-g/

[-] 1 points by chuck1al (1074) from Flomaton, AL 12 years ago

@GypsyKing...How is it possible to live with tyranny, would you be a serf?

We have no choice but to continue with what is started. This is not for the weak willed or people who are resigned to their place in the system.

Its time to change the paradigm.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Agreed completely, the question is, how? For me the answer is to do everything we can short of violence. It's that simple really. I just feel that violence is counter-productive and just leaves you back where you started from, and probably even someplace a lot worse than where you started from.

I also feel that a lot of us on both sides of the political spectrum really want essentially the same things, but disagree on how to get there. Hatred, I think is the enemy, because it leads to disunity, which just plays into the hands of the tiny fraction of the population who want to enslave humanity for their own ends.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by RoughKarma (122) 12 years ago

I would like to ask if Occupy sees itself as unifying or divisive. What strikes me is how the movement places labels on people and separates them, the 99% and the 1%. How can we find a solution if everyone is not included. Shouting at the 1% and showing how much you hate them and their lives and their children in their privileged schools will never get them to listen and understand. And since it is agreed that they hold all the cards, how does alienating them bring resolution closer? We need the 1% as much as they need us. I am not religious, but the Jesus quote I always thought was cool was "love your enemy" because they can't fight that. The Power in our society can match and defeat your hate, your anger and your violence, but they cannot defeat your love for them. We must commit to survival as a nation, 100% of us or not at all. Evolution, not revolution. Trading one despised oppressed group for another is not progress.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I really agree with this. The fact is that we are now ALL facing numerous threats to human survival. The problem is that we have a system in place that NONE of us, individually, have any control over.

It is a system that must keep expanding endlessly to meet both the needs of the masses and the perogatives of the priviliged class, while the resources of the planet are finite. This is a system destined by simple mathmatics to end in disaster. It is like a runaway train.

If Warren Buffet, for example, wanted to change it tomorrow, even he - for all his wealth and power - really could not do so in any significant way, alone.

The question than becomes, to what degree does this system exist because it must exist, given the nature of survival and the human psyche - and to what degree we are capable of rethinking human society and behavior so that harmony can be established with ecosystems and with each others needs and demands?

This reality puts us to the ultimate test, I think. It is nothing less than the question of to what degree we control our lives by free will, and to what degree we are controlled by custom and our innate nature as a species.

It seems our survival rests upon that ultimate philosophical question of to what degree we really have free will and are willing to excercize it. It really would help if the "1%" would come to us with something more than the desire to destroy us and our movement, because if they did maybe we could really start doing something to preserve life on earth for future generations.

I feel that we must face this question head on if we want anything like a worthwhile future, and to do this we must be all in it together. So far I'm not hearing much from the ruling class, other than perhaps Warren Buffet and a few others - not even hearing that they recognize the problem; and that is deeply disturbing. If they want to help shape the future they need to join the conversation and not hold onto their illusion of separateness until the opportunity passes them by.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

RoughKarma (35) 4 days ago- your comment "love your enemy" is well and good. But it does not mean to blindly support their actions. You can show love by correcting errors in thought action and deed.

Here is another good quote:

Spare the Rod and Spoil the Child.

[-] 1 points by RoughKarma (122) 12 years ago

My post, when I re-read it, seemed naive even to me. It didn't get across what I was ultimately trying to say, which is: If the point is to vent frustration, then the name-calling and the hate that spews on this site, sometimes, is okay. If your goal is to change their minds, then words like Repelicans, Republitards and way worse are counterproductive. Telling someone how loathsome they are gets in the way of constructive dialogue. It's funny, it's witty, but it hurts progress. Finding common ground and respecting your opponent is the basis for effective dialogue, otherwise you are engaging in mental masturbation: It makes you feel good but doesn't do much for anyone else.

[-] 1 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

It's called "Divide and Conquer" and our overlords are extremely good at it by now. They put a LOT of effort into this, hell, Fox News is nothing but a vehicle to spread hatred in order to do just that. And it's not just the right-wing nuts who take the bait -- almost everybody does. How many people were in a panic not too long ago about "OMG, you have to support Obama otherwise say hello to President Palin!!!"

Like Obama's any different from the Repubs. He's not. He's a tool of the Military Industrial Complex and Wall Street and even the same neocons that have been running the country since 2000.

Now it will be Romney. OMG we can't let Romney win!!! Vote for Obama, he MUST be better than that!

The bank bailouts in 2008 were the one time in my life, and I'm almost 50, when I saw the fake left and the fake right in this country suddenly come together in the stunning realization that they had just been conned, robbed, and that the crooks were laughing all the way to the banks they'd just looted. That was the ONE TIME that everybody realized we were together, as victims, and it lasted for about 5 minutes until the Corporate Propaganda teams started ratcheting up the new "narrative" about how the fault of the collapse was poor people! No, never mind that Moody's and S&P conspired to rate these junk gambling debts as AAAA investment grade material. No, never mind that the banks were giving mortgages to anyone who could fog a mirror in order to chop them up and trade them 268 times over in the Big Casino. And when all these gangsters turned to each other and said "ha! You owe me zillions of dollars" they realized that they were all doing that -- there WAS no money, it was all gambled away over 200 times over, what did they do? They turned to their Golden Sachs buddy Paulson, who said "don't worry, I'll just tell the idiot American people that there will be blood in the streets if they don't hand us all our gambling winnings -- all of us!" And they did, and we were screwed and now there are actually people, people here, who are wondering WHY we're protesting! Because that's how BRAINWASHED people are in this country, they are DUPED, they are HYPNOTIZED by the propaganda kings who are paid tens of millions of dollars a year to spread hatred. Hannity, Limpballs, Coulter, all those beady-eyed reptilian bitches on Faux News, that's what they are paid to do -- "YOU WILL HATE YOUR NEIGHBOR".

Well your neighbor has far more in common with you than does Megan Kelly or any of those evil rich motherfuckers. Why does anyone listen to them?

Hell if I know. It's sick.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 12 years ago

I think what we will all eventually come to know is that there is one ordained type of unity, unlike our current "united" states where men are divided and esteemed great by how much wealth they obtain. A unity where men may obtain an abundance of the earth, where brothers, impart of their substance to those that stand in need, so that our brothers may be rich like us". Unlike our current system, where rich people are punished in the form of gift tax if they give away more than 13K to a poor person. Unlike our current system, where rich people who have purchased homes, continue to rent them out receiving rent for 5-10 times as much as they paid for the homes, and never sharing the home by selling to the poor occupant (this happened to me 2.5x). Unlike the current system, where banks only want to loan to these rich people to buy homes, when we are at record low interest rates, and again denying poor struggling families the opportunity to buy in a low real estate market (this also happened to me, the banks only loaned to my rich almost dead parents , when im the one working to pay for the home, so who gets the write off in taxes, my rich parents who dont need it or me, since I actually paid for it, it will be interesting to see what the overregulated government bureacracy says this tax year. Or how about, because of the penalties imposed by our government in inheritance taxes, or gift taxes, rich people give to charities who are non-profit, so they arent penalized, avoiding giving help to those who are needful, when in fact charities, are run by multi-millionaires, taking a lions share of the donations to pay them a whopping $500k - $600k salary each year, and only offering a minimul $7.50 an hour to help most of the people they say they help. I could go on and on and on...

[-] 1 points by Durandus (181) 12 years ago

Conceptual differences?...probably not. But the Majority can very easily identify Corporatism (the Beast) as THE ENEMY of Mankind and Unite to starve this Beast under the banner of Moral Will.

We know that Corporatism has captured our State...that it's aim is Domination and Enlsavement of the World's People, and the perfect disregard of our Health and Welfare. The only Certain method, both immediate and to the Purpose of attack upon the Beast is Boycott...Boycott ALL goods and services offered by the Corporate Paracites...Boycott ALL entertainment and media offered by the Beast and those Celebrities who shill for the Beast.

No threat, no coercion, no promise to play nice if They remedy their ways...just boycott, boycott, boycott...Starve the Beast till the Thing withers and dies of its own innertia and dead weight. Not one penny to Corporate goods and services, and anathema to the Celebrities that It sponsors...including All artists/actors/shills.

Starve the Beast!!

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Agreed, we must boycott. We must, in short, use every means available. Corporations are not human beings and so we have a justification to treat them and their property as something subhuman, which they are.

[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Gothenburg, NE 12 years ago

The issue that is arising, is that you haven't been made aware of the pure evil that arose and injected itself upon the purity movement, and the very ignorance of what happened lends towards confusion. The movement's non-violence was used against itself is what happened. It is an issue that has left many of us very saddened.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I'm aware of it and also deeply saddened by it. Our hope lies in persistence and flexibility. If we are driven from the streets we must find new avenues of asserting truth, hard though that may be. I don't have all the answers, just an intensity driven by the urgency of the situation, and a faith that there is finally more good in humans than evil once they are roused.

[-] 1 points by dreamingforward (394) from Gothenburg, NE 12 years ago

More than assert the Truth, you and we must take back all of the property of the Industrial Age, by whatever means avaiilable and help it return to the earth.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

A really big challenge, but we need to face the fact that we are, whether we like it or not, faced with a really big challenge.

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Oh cut the BS Gypsy...Take care of your own wacky mental problems and you'll have done a great service to the rest of the world.

[-] 1 points by freewriterguy (882) 12 years ago

hatred and personal attacks can be used to disqualify potential representatives, as they dont contribute to improvement, but just show they deserve to stay at the bottom, as the bottom feeders, (trash type) people that they are. Dont worry there are some very intelligent people at work.

[-] 1 points by 4TheHumanSocietyProject (504) 12 years ago

Thank you for this post. Please do not get discouraged. Please do not falter. Please do not let fear run your life. Please love and forgive. Please change this world because we all can.

[-] 1 points by 21stCenHomoSapien (7) 12 years ago

"Sometimes I think the problem lies in the process of human thought itself ... like hostile baboons."

"Is this all there can ever be?" Same question that every person who has ever lived, has asked at one time or another.

In short I believe, another world is possible. Evidence: progress in science is real and hard earned. It is the product of human cognition despite its flaws. It has only been a few million years since we evolutionarily split from chimpanzees yet our species has walked on the moon. The new twist, in the last two decades scientific researchers have been able to accumulate empirical evidence on how our minds function, and are piecing together a scientific understanding of human cognition and consciousness. Basically we are not as aware, nor as conscious as we may assume. Motivations, stored thought patterns, and emotions are often out of conscious awareness, yet color or determine behavior when (silently) triggered by external events or situations. But the conscious mind may be able to monitor, choose, and even replace destructive thought patterns. This may be one path to a kind of intellectual evolution. Like physical exercise and hygiene, we may be able to develop a discipline focusing on how our minds work, and their limitations, to move out of our "hostile baboon" behavior.

This is the potential new contribution the OWS generation can make, or begin. To wisely use this evolving understanding to design a world much more understanding of, and in line with the limitations of 21st century Homo Sapien thought and emotion. Non-violence, self-restraint, thoughtfulness and a respect and tolerance for others seem to belie a certain understanding that the self may not have absolute truth. That immediate reactions and emotions should be consciously held at bay at least until verified. That our intellect is powerful but limited. And it is very difficult to do this.

A more complete understanding can, and will be used against us by all the usual suspects but it seems like the only option. We have no choice but to better understand ... the organ we use to understand, and the source of who we are. Perhaps the age of enlightenment, and economic rational thought were both a little too simplistic or absolute.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 12 years ago

i believe it will take an incredible man-made catastrophe or a series of incredible man-made catastrophes before we will realize that we must work together for our own good. rather bleak but i think we need to be shocked out of our egoistic narrow minded selfishness. (myself included btw)

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

That is, of course, what I am afraid of. It's sad though, that in times of war or natural disaster the establishment screams - 'We are all in this together!" In times of prosperity they scream "Private Property!"

We seem to have the only society in the world in which profits are private and losses are socialized.

Some people must get an illicit thrill out of successfully depriving others of a descent life. It's a really sad thing to see in human nature, and I think a growing awareness of the transcendent nature of the soul is the only cure.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

"That is, of course, what I am afraid of. It's sad though, that in times of war or natural disaster the establishment screams - 'We are all in this together!" In times of prosperity they scream "Private Property!"

Think about this...just for a moment....

If as YOU keep suggesting elsewhere-"the poor" are devoid of resources or money or anything "extra" in life-then WHERE IN THE HELL does the money, materials, resources COME FROM to restore things AFTER a natural disaster??? It can't be coming from "the poor"....they don't have it to give do they?

In other words "We are all in this together" means that in "times of war AND natural disaster" ONLY THOSE WHO HAD more than enough are capable of putting those resources into play in order to restore society. And not only do "the richer" among us step up to fix things in America when it happens, they ALSO do it when things happen in OTHER countries.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

You, of course, leave out such basic things as decent standard of living, access to health care, access to affordable housing, etc., etc., etc.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Who says those are basic NEEDS? They are basic wants. This country DOES provide housing, medical assistance, food, clothing, and a hundred other things to "the poor" through the government. And for those who are truly incapacitated in some way that renders them incapable of providing those things for themselves or their families-I-as a tax paying American am HAPPY to help those people. I don't begrudge ONE PENNY that is used to truly uplift and support "the poor" or "the infirm" or the "temporarily unemployed"etc.

I DO however get very, VERY pissy when I see the tax dollars meant to help and benefit the above people being "stolen" from them by people who ARE perfectly capable of supporting themselves, but who have learned to take advantage of what was set aside for "the poor" for their own benefit.

Jesus said-feed the poor, NOT support the poor full time no matter what. Jesus said clothe the poor, NOT give the poor as much money as they need to dress the same way the rich do. Jesus said to visit the sick NOT to provide health care for those who might get sick or need care in the future so they'll have it. The Good Samaritan did NOT leave the robbed, beaten, nearly dead man in the gutter while he rode into Rome to protest unfairness and organize a moment to demand social programs be developed to help said man. He put the man ON HIS OWN animal, took him to the closest Inn, PAID out of his own pocket for the care and recovery of the man and went on his way.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

What arrogance, to say that medical care and housing are a want. Keep it up, let everybody hear you.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Right. Don't you know GypsyKing, Jesus said "Keep the poor way down there and be sure to elevate yourselves?"

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

It sure seems like a lot of people who consider themselves Christian do believe this now. It's kind of mind boggling.

[-] 1 points by JamesS89118 (646) from Las Vegas, NV 12 years ago

Then he took the cross out of his ass and banged the atheism out of Ayn Rand. I saw it on Discovery.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

What does Ayn Rand have to do with any of this?

[-] 1 points by JamesS89118 (646) from Las Vegas, NV 12 years ago

I find many selfish monotheists also claim to understand Ayn while forgetting her lack of theism.

Adderal may have kicked in too [sic]! :)

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Okay.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

The Queen of Hyperbole speaks again.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

The one who needs grammar lessons speaks again.

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

How arrogant (but please keep it up) for you to attempt to paint me as saying something I did NOT say. To everybody who reads this: it's called rhetoric! (Unless GK is just an outright liar in which case it's called LYING)

Re-read my post. This country DOES provide housing and medical care and "a hundred other things" to the poor. I also said I do NOT begrudge one penny that is spent actually providing those things to the people who NEED them. Did everyone hear that? Read that? Got that?

It is morally and ethically WRONG to blame or accuse another person of violating a universally understood and accepted ideal-if no such understanding and acceptance has ever happened universally!!!

GK's words were "descent standard of living" "access to health care" and "access to affordable housing".

The word "descent"-should have been spelled DECENT-and what one person thinks is "decent" another person might not, and there is no universal definition of what a "decent standard of living" actually means, so there cannot have been a universal acceptance of that definition. Until there IS people can't be accused of NOT providing that standard.

Access to health care is ALSO subjective and needs to be universally defined AND accepted by all BEFORE anyone can morally get upset about that standard being violated. Same with "affordable housing". Exactly what defines what is "affordable" for each one of us?

But by all means GK-you keep letting everyone hear how irrational OWS is being.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

You preface your comment by saying, "Who says these are basic needs? They are basic wants!" I admit that I didn't read beyond that. The original statement was enough to know that nothing more could justify it.

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 12 years ago

spin??? the government's emergency relief funds help when there is a disaster.

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

I'm talking about all the volunteer hours, and materials, and money and donations and everything else BEYOND the "government's relief fund" influence. The governments money is NEVER enough to do it all, and US citizens have always stepped up with their own money and means (ON TOP of their tax dollars-Gov Em Fund) to help when catastrophic things happen. Even in other countries.

[-] 1 points by rayl (1007) 12 years ago

do you have figures for this in relationship to which part of society contributes their time? i can't imagine a 1%er helping in a disaster zone.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 12 years ago

Actually, I think the problem isn't so much in the human thought process as it is the exhaustive studying, and subsequent exploiting, of the human thought processes. The 'PTB' has spent the better part of the last century, and untold buckets of money, studying how humans think. This has allowed them to manipulate us in ways many people would scarcely believe. It's been, in my opinion, the ultimate in a 'divide and conquer' strategy. First, keep people of different nationalities and colors divided by fostering and perpetuating distrust and hatred. Then, they went to work breaking up and separating the community. Finally, they went to work breaking up the traditional family unit. The so-called 'Women's Liberation Movement' was a small part of this believe it or not. It wasn't so much about women's equality as it was fragmenting the family unit (and of course, as always, making money in the process). It is, indeed, the ultimate 'divide and conquer;' divide the enemy forces all the way down to the individual and keep them divided through mistrust and hatred.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

"...to manipulate us in ways people would scarsely believe." Truer words were, unfortunately, never said.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 12 years ago

The bad thing is they've had at least an eighty year head start on us. The good thing is we've started waking up to what they've been doing. I agree with you that we are experiencing one of the pivotal moments in US history.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I really think in human history, because there are problems arrising, that if left unsolved truely threaten the viability of civilization, and even of life on earth. How strange to live to see it. Some of us have wondered for a good long while what it will take for people to wake up? All I can say is that it better be a whole lot of people, and it better be soon.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6819) from St Louis, MO 12 years ago

True. When you consider the big picture, this is indeed probably the most important decade in human existence.

[-] 1 points by freakyfriday (179) 12 years ago

We are at the most unbelievable moment in time, when humanity really comes to the final question. We are participants in the greatest moment in all of history. We can no longer run from one another, we can no longer hide. We must face the question of whether we can live with one another or face oblivion. The choice is ours, what will it be?

what the hell did you ingest tonite? Greatest moment in HISTORY???? Get over yourself.

[-] 2 points by debndan (1145) 12 years ago

be careful, you may get spammed with a zeitgeist link for challenging the greatest moment in history line

[-] 1 points by freakyfriday (179) 12 years ago

Can't be any worse than the beating I took for challenging the claims that ows was greater than the civil rights movement of the 60's. That made me a racist you know. So does my support of a certain presidential candidate!

It's amazing how any dissent to opinions expressed here earns you profanity filled ad hominens! (Thrassy's favorite retort...I finally looked it up and can see why he throws it around so much here)

[-] 1 points by OurTimes2011 (377) from Arlington, VA 12 years ago

The nature of western culture gives rise to an extreme level of self destructive human behavior. This comes from the way in which the system forces man to stand against nature. After all, what is the crowning achievement of the culture? Nuclear weapons.

Nature always wins.

Unless we can move away from the current structure, I'm betting on oblivion.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Love, freedom, acceptance, affirmation - these things are free - they exist in unlimited quantity and yet they are the things of greatest scarcity. The quest for material possessions is really the struggle to acquire sufficient status to be accorded these things that potentially exist in unlimited abundance - why?

[-] 2 points by Builder (4202) 12 years ago

Great point. Personally, I never feel truly free until I am rid of personal possessions, which seem to carry an ownership onus; that being, possessions end up owning you.

People who size me up by what I have, rather than who I am, are aquaintances only. True friends will be true no matter what you pretend to be owning.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I think it is the structure of our economic system that ultimately pits people against one another.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I agree. That is at least a big part of the reason - this omnipresent focus on competition that essentially makes everyone feel like a loser on some level, no matter how materially successful. We need to find other measures of succes; ones based on higher values.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Absolutely. I've unfortunately seen a few loved ones on their deathbeds, and believe me, they weren't worried about their material possessions. They didn't need to say good-bye to their bank accounts or cars.

[-] 4 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

How does the saying go?

"He who dies with the most toys is dead just the same" or something to that effect.

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

It is really sad to see T's posts voted down like this arbitrarily. I'm going to vote up every comment T. makes from now on out of simple fairness.

[-] 1 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

Yesterday and again today, I posted the following comment, but it was quickly collapsed by THRASYMAQUE, who has attacked FOUR of us over the past week with his stupid bot.

So here, in my third attempt, is the comment that so displeased Her Majesty Thrasy-la-Terreur... LOL

"How does the saying go? "He who dies with the most toys is dead just the same" or something to that effect.

[-] 1 points by TIOUAISE (2526) 12 years ago

Yesterday I posted the following comment, but it was quickly collapsed by THRASYMAQUE, who has attacked FOUR of us over the past week with his stupid bot.

So here, again, is the comment that so displeased Her Majesty Thrasy-la-Terreur... LOL

"How does the saying go? "He who dies with the most toys is dead just the same" or something to that effect.

THAT is the comment that so offended Her Majesty Thrasy who reigns unchallenged... :)

R.I.P. Freedom of speech!

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I did see it, briefly, last night.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

It's an amazing thing, this confuson, when you think about it. It's like material acquisitian takes the place of love. It's a clichet but I think a justified one that so many children of the ruling classes are starved for affection, and taught that acquisitian should take the place of affection, or is required in order to recieve affection. It's really twisted, when you examine the damage to the psyche from something like that. I think of that when I say I really am sorry for the ruling class. The few of them I've known have been without exception very unhappy people.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

I had a discussion in these threads somewhere with someone a while back about how all of the selfishness we see and lack of empathy and compassion is related to a lack of unconditional love. I believe, like you say, that this goes back to early childhood for that is when one learns to love. If a person hasn't experienced unconditional love from anyone, they will not be able to give it away either. They will not know how to. It is quite sad.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Agree completely. And thus human problems at the micro-level play themselves out in human problems at the macro-level. Everything is connected.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (23769) 12 years ago

Yes. Boy, when we put it that way it seems daunting doesn't it?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Well, on the other hand, in spite of the assertions of some to the contrary, great advances have been made recently in the understanding of human psychology, and in other advances in thinking over the last hundred years or so that are also enabling us to grow. If there's one place I think we have really failed though, it's been in placing too much emphasis on technology and not enough on the liberal arts, because although technology can give a society power, only a liberal arts education can show people what to do with power.

I think things can,, and will change because of necessity, and because the necessary knowledge is finally becoming desciminated.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Aren't YOU trying to equate "love" with GIVING the materials acquired by the rich TO the poor? OWS like you and BW keep saying that if "the rich loved the poor" they'd give them money or stuff or things. YOU are doing the exact thing you are complaining about. And you don't even SEE it do you?

The ENTIRE message of OWS is that the rich DO NOT LOVE THE POOR because they do not GIVE THEM ENOUGH MONEY/STUFF.

You are the BLIND attempting to lead the BLIND.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

No, the point is that some people can't think about anything but "money, and stuff and things."

[-] -1 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Yes- OWS specifically.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Sure, speaking up for the disenfranchised, even when you are not one of them, is greed - gottcha.

[-] -2 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

Speaking up for the disenfranchised, especially when you do not KNOW exactly what they want or how they feel, is ARROGANCE. Got that too?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

You seem fairly obsessed by other people's supposed arrogance. Could that be projection?

[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

It very well could be. As much as your statement that "some people can't think about anything but 'money, and stuff and things' " could be one of your projections.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Yeah, that's why I'm here, doing this for nothing all the time. LOL

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

your language is childish..get with the program...give up the weed for a couple of days...no alcohol either. ..stay out of mom's med's. good luck dear

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Your soul is dead and not any of those drugs, nor a thousand doctors could revive it. Good luck dear, and I mean that.

[-] 0 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

"We can't expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism"....Is this the plan for the USA? Wake up people...

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

So not wanting to be enslaved by 1/100th of 1 percent is now communism? You deem slavery to be liberty, and therefore American?

[-] 1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

better dead than red

[-] 0 points by ZenDogTroll (13032) from South Burlington, VT 12 years ago

that's right little mz Lara . . .

better dead than red

  • the repelican party is DONE
[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

oh shut up..you are dull and melodramatic. have an awesome day.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago
[-] 0 points by freewriterguy (882) 12 years ago

this is why id prefer to be noah, with just a couple of families on the earth. People suck for the most part. and God says, you are my brothers, andIm supposed to love you as myself, wow talk about a hard request.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

It's good to admit that, I think. As Dostoevsky said, "Jesus told us to love your neighbor, when it's just precisely your neighbor that you can't love." So there we are - what a bind!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

Unite in common cause. Hate the things that are wrong in this world. Support each-other in making things right. This is where the healing will begin.

The Government of "The People" by "The People" for "The People"

We are the 99%. Take part in "The Peoples" Lobby.

Take action. See samples of how below.

192,815 signatures so far for Bernie Sanders petition as of 8:27am central time 01/22/2012

http://sanders.enews.senate.gov/mail/util.cfm?mailaction=clickthru&gpiv=2100081904.557411.411&gen=1&mailing_linkid=34578

The petition to save abandoned houses has 16 signatures. We picked one up at around 11:07am 01/16/2012. Were just rolling right along.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Savingpeople-savinghomes-payingdowntheNationaldeficit/

Here is a place where you can directly address change. Take part, it does not hurt and may very well heal/help. Forward the cause of reform and rebirth.

http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ag8nw/zL2Q/B18Bb

Sierra Club has some good things to take part in as well. Set-up and ready for you to take part in. http://sierraclub.org/

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Thank you for posting this here. This is a way we all can take some compassionate action now. It is a way for average citizens to act in the political realm, and although alone it will probably not achieve all of our goals, it may achieve some of them through a very painless means. Along with protesting, occupying etc., I think we must all get active in politics in an election year, in whatever ways we think can make a real difference.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Right on! A lot of people have dissed these petition drives, but although they probably won't prove to be the whole solution, they ARE having real effect, and they're a lot better that doing nothing while figureing out other tactics. I like your responce a lot!

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

Thank you very much. I also twittered it linking this Post to the comment. People are always asking how they can effect change. This is how. People think that they need money to form a powerful Lobby - they don't, they just need to recognize what is freely available and then use it. I liked your Post because it addresses the fact that we need to stop distracting ourselves with useless issues. We need to get beyond Race, Religion, Politics to attack the wrong and make the world a better place for "ALL".

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I agree totally! The point is to DO something; and to discount methods that have previously not been employed to their full potential is simply silly. My view has always been that we need to DO EVERYTHING in our power to effect change. I see no rewason to discount any non-violent method of doing so. Why should we?

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

Truth!!!

People have said to me that petitions are useless, that they have not accomplished anything. I beg to differ - look at Wisconsin and the recall.

Also it has been a very long time since a large portion of the populace were all pissed off about the same thing - The economic meltdown and corruption.

These things have started a unification of major dissent. Now a petition ( or quantity of petitions) can get proper backing and major support. That is the difference now. The number of people willing to get involved are a real driving force.

We just need to help guide that force into doing something useful together.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

We are on the same page here exactly. Protest in the streets and political action must reinforce each other and not be mutually exclusive. It is in these things together that you have the winning formula. I think if we take both courses we can actually win this fight! Political apathy on our part only serves the interests of the 100th of the 1%!

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

More people are beginning to rethink previous bias and are starting to shift their para-dime. These movements for change are still practically newborn, but are already picking up momentum and organization. We are getting closer day by day to getting past petty differences and being able to see the truth of where and how we need to act "Together". Hence all of the attackers on this site trying to stir-up differences and sow disunity. I am happy to see the attackers as they are demonstrating the fact that the status-quo is scared.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I agree, and I find that really exciting. I really think mankind may be finally waking up. And I will say here that I am not motivated by the idea of revenge, but rather excited by the possibility of awaking to a new and better order for ALL! That is no longer a pipe dream, it is where all our labor over the centuries has brought us. Technology can enslave us, or free us - it is up to US.

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (33802) from Coon Rapids, MN 12 years ago

Exactly - Each individual taking part in steering the coarse of society/world towards daylight.

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[-] 0 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

Oh god, this is so negative. Don't you realize that you're just being pessimistic? Have some faith, have some sense of play. Don't be so sad.

[-] 3 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

"You're just being negative." That has been the mantra of people who want to look away from the human condition since the 70's.

It is not I who am being negative when I point out the negative conditions that need changing. I am actually quite positive. If I wasn't I wouldn't be here.

[-] 0 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

I can respect that. It just doesn't jive with me. I'm hopelessly naive and optimistic, I can't help it. So when people go on and on about complaints, things that need to be fixed, or tinkering with plans and rules, it's just not my thing and I start to get sort of depressed and bored. Like I said, it's all about playing and laughing. Have some fun.

[-] 2 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Well, you have a good point there. Have you visited the "Chuckles The Clown," sight lately? It might be a better place for you to find some laughs. What we are doing here is, unfortunately, of a more serious nature.

I like the English version of "The Office" myself.

[-] 0 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

LOL seriously Chuckles the Clown, oh my god, that is amazing. Thank you. :D

[-] 0 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

LOL! You are so funny! I can't believe I fell for that title. You are an amazing troll, me and my friend can't stop laughing at your anger. It's so great. Keep it up. I love it.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

What is so hostile about Chuckles the Clown? I really think you're getting out of bounds here. Maybe you're not old enough, but I loved Chuckles. Please, let's not drag him into this - I might need to call The Lone Ranger!

[-] 0 points by occupypuppies (71) 12 years ago

Gahhh I have no idea. But I like the cut of your jib.

[-] 0 points by WooHoo (15) 12 years ago

Yeah. Melodramatic much?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I'm not going to listen to dramatic criticism from someone named WooHoo.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 12 years ago

Oh come on! If WooHoo isn't both dramatic and critical, I don't know who is!! lol. Why should it matter what his name is? It's poetic! I don't hear yours rhyming. Although the two syllables followed by one syllable is pleasing enough. : )

[-] 0 points by WooHoo (15) 12 years ago

...said the GypsyKing.

[-] 0 points by gosso920 (-24) 12 years ago

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[-] 0 points by oneAdam12 (-7) from Queens, NY 12 years ago

what is up Gypsy? Yo man, it's an inside job. work on fixing your own self first...and everything else will work out. Have a good night.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

In a way, in spite of what I see as it's cynical intent, this comment carries a real element of truth, as far as I can understand the situation.

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[-] 0 points by karenpoore (902) 12 years ago

I am with you Gypsy ...

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[-] 0 points by Kirby (104) 12 years ago

Hopefully baseball will expand and the world will come together at the ball park, eat a dog, suck down a few brews, and do the seventh inning stretch. Baseball is the only thing that will bring us together. Can you imagine the Yankees playing Terhan in a 7 game world series? It is our only hope to put nuclear arms to rest.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

I like your way of thinking.

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[-] 0 points by justhefacts (1275) 12 years ago

The human race was never meant to be "the same". It's EASY to accept each other and love each other and play nicely when everyone else is "like you are". What would that accomplish?

The beautiful complexity of humanity FORCES us to work hard-to make actual, effort filled decisions to love and forgive to understand to cooperate. To find more and more about how different we can be while still being connected by our similarities and shared origins.

Human nature is to RESIST being "forced" to do something or act in some manner that you do not want to do. And the more you TRY to "force" certain behaviors or expectations out of another person, the more that person is going to resist you.

You cannot "MAKE" people share who do not want to share. You cannot make people work who do not want to work. You cannot FORCE people to BE a certain kind of person if they don't WANT to be that kind of person. You can make laws that "punish" or try to control certain behaviors (out of fear of the lawful consequence) but you cannot PREVENT people from being bad people.

You can only try to understand and forgive them and live your own life in a way that offsets the badness. This is not the "final question" it is the ORIGINAL question. People need to stop running from the question and the answer-it's always going to be there. We face that question and it's answer AND GO ON-like humanity always has. Oblivion isn't even on the map unless WE seek to obliterate ourselves. Is that the ONLY choice you think is viable?

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

You have the Tea Party fighting for smaller government and OWS fighting for larger government. I doubt it will be settled anytime soon.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I think what we have are those who care about more than just themselves pitted aginst those who care only about themselves.

Strangely, those who care only about themselves seem to disproportionately proclaim themselves to be Christians.

It is really that last fact that sends my head into a dizzy spell, and makes me wonder if people aren't actually going mad. Here you have the Christians advocating the merciless ideology of ancient Rome . . . wow! Why not just nail the poor to the cross?

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

You have Christians who voluntarily contribute to charity and the OWS fighting for the government to confiscate more of other peoples money to grow to grow the size of the government.

OWS wants government to confiscate money from people other than themselves. That is not caring about other people. That is a blatant disregard for the property of others and has nothing to do with caring about others. it has to do with greed and envy.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

People don't want charity; they want self-determination and human dignity. The greed and envy thing is a red herring. As has been said a hundred times here we are not against wealth, honestly earned and within the bounds of any conceivable reason.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

Governmental support is far more injurious to human dignity than true charity.

So, you do not support governmental confiscation of property under the guise of higher taxation? You will stand by my side and support the lowering of taxes and reduction of regulation?

What are your rules for determining what is "wealth, honestly earned and within the bounds of any conceivable reason."

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Government uncorrupted = democracy = the will of the people. Therefore the corruption of, and the opposition to, governmet uncorrupted = treason.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

I guess you never got layed off in a recession.

You also NEVER have a problem when corporations TAX you so they can make you pay for their legislative agenda.

So many facts you ignore.

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

Corporations tax me because there are those who advocate those corporations pay taxes. This is a far more insidious taxation because it is not labelled as tax, it is included in the price of their product and passed on to consumers as "part of the price of doing business". Were the government to label all taxes as taxes and fork over a bill to each person to pay at the end of the year, we would have far less support for regulations and taxation.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Yes, of course corporations tax you that way too.

I'm talking about the TAX they make you pay to support their political agenda.

The one you ignore.

The one that supports entities like ALEC.

We pay that TAX.

That's why I recommend TAX free corporations.

Just TAX the crap out of those that run them, to point that they can no longer afford to influence legislation.

In fact, I recommend making it illegal.

[-] -1 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

Without corrupt governmental politicians, governmental regulations, or the desire to purchase them, there would be no ability to to pay for a political agenda.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Without corrupt corporations we would be even better off.

You still ignore that simple fact.

You ignore the FACT that corporations levy a TAX upon all consumers.

A TAX we have no control over.

A TAX that hurts us all more than any other.

TAX their controllers even more for a while, to make up for lost monies.

Make organizations like ALEC illegal

We need an accurate diagnosis and cure for pleonexia, as well.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

Corporations tax because there are those who advocate those corporations pay taxes. This is a far more insidious taxation because it is not labelled as tax, it is included in the price of their product and passed on to consumers as "part of the price of doing business". Were the government to label all taxes as taxes and fork over a bill to each person to pay at the end of the year, we would have far less support for regulations and taxation.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

You are correct, when you say this is the most insidious of all taxation.

It would be correct. to call it taxation with mis-representation.

If it were only true that they used this hidden tax, only to improve their own tax situation.

But it isn't.

They "force" us to pay and pay for all manner of hidden political activities, all the while they are reducing their own taxation...........................

The activities of ALEC is one that should be looked at very closely.

http://alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed

As you can see, taxation is not their only goal.

Please also note that this "club" is (R)epelican oriented, and backed by "closet" libe(R)tarians.

If you look closely you will find their names among the donors and contributors to many of the libe(R)tarian supporting publications, from magazines, to blogs.

We pay for this activity too.

This is on top of the billions spent yearly on lobbies.

Few of these activities have anything to do with the good of the country.

That's not in the corporate charter.

In other words, these corporations have TAXED us to pay for furthering their interests, and those interests, were not and are not concerned with the good of the nation.

They also taxed us to lobby for the laws that made it so.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

You are just another OWS useful idiot who is all caught up in political labels you are not even well enough versed to be able to spell correctly.

'nuff said

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 12 years ago

Geeze, and that's what I get for agreeing with you?

At least I'm useful.

You're not.

[-] 0 points by toonces (-117) 12 years ago

Whewwww! I thought you were gonna bust out the big guns and call me a re-POOPIE-lican

[-] -1 points by pullmyfinger (-6) 12 years ago

Shut the fuck up gypsyking

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Many try to stop me, shake me up in my mind Say, "Prove to me that He is Lord, show me a sign" What kind of sign they need when it all come from within When what's lost has been found, what's to come has already been ? Well I'm pressing on To the higher calling of my Lord. Shake the dust off of your feet, don't look back Nothing can hold you down, nothing that you lack Temptation's not an easy thing, Adam gave the devil reign, Because he sinned I got no choice, it run in my vein.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

I have theophobia & you're babbling is freaking me out.

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Sorry...can you get treatment for that? Nice to hear from you. Have good evening.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

I treat myself daily to science, coherent reason, and facts. You should try it some time. There is no greater balm to ward off inane babbling about supernatural beings and seeing images in toast.

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

I think that the depth of spirituality, and the various paths are somethings you are unfamiliar with. That's ok...But don't put others down.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

Spirituality is a good thing, it's dogmatic religion that breeds intolerance and starts wars. I will put anybody down for that.

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

"spirituality"? what's that JC? (Hey, "JC" -- cool, just like someone else.)

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

Must you sound like a superfluous idiot and make non-existent connections between two totally unrelated items.

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

is that an "i don't know" JC?

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

Spirituality is a well-defined word. If you want the meaning, I suggest you look it up.

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

uh huh, spirituality good, religion bad. profound, JC. Go figure out what you mean and come on back some time.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

If you got something to say on the subject, spit it out. I said what I meant, and I meant what I said. Spirituality is good, dogmatic religion that breeds intolerance and starts wars is bad.

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

ohh, spirituality tolerant, religion intolerant. spirituality peaceful, religion war-mongering. got it. very well thought out, JC.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

That is my view, and you're welcome to adopt it. The world would be a better place.

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

I dunno. I guess I have reservations about following the deep thoughts of a 41 yr old man who quotes ToyStory 3.

[-] -2 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

[-] 2 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

When the religious people in this country start acting like spiritually 'good' people, I might take your advice.

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

start with yourself...and try not to judge others.. when ever you recognize these hypocritical characteristics in others ...it is because you have the same flaws too.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

I judge people with rational thought, not from my high horse endowed by my artificial talks with supernatural beings.

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

huh ?? "endowed by my artificial talks with supernatural beings"?? What does that mean?

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

Did I type in Mandarin or Tagalog?

[-] 0 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

you typed in head up the ass.

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

Is that a god approved word? Or will mommy have to wash your mouth out with soap now?

[-] 0 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Now your bringing God up...I didn't think that any supreme being mattered to you?

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

goofusese

[-] 1 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 12 years ago

No results found for goofusese meaning

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

If a "Higher Calling" is what you believe you are persuing, than I really think you need help.

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Paul's letter to the Romans 3:23 For all have sinned. This has been already shown. And come short of the glory of God. No sinner is in the Divine image. All have sinned, and to have the divine likeness restored, need to have their sins blotted out. Until this is done they come short of the glory of God.

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

thw words of the prophet are written on the subway wall!

[-] -1 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

that's Simon and Garfunkel. they were ok...I like Freddy Mercury better.

[-] 0 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

who? was he from queens too?

[-] 0 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

from group called Queen. born in Zanzibar?

[-] 1 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

I don't know about that, sorry. artie had a beautiful voice

[-] 0 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

Yeah He did sound pretty good.. The music that is recorded by current artists now, is not at as a high a quality..me thinks. I really dig Bob Dylan

[-] 1 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

me too, i liked when he was in the wallflours but dont know his new stuff

[-] 0 points by LaraLittletree (-850) from Scarsdale, NY 12 years ago

no...no..that is his son Jacob Dylan..w/ the wallflowers. Bob is # 1.

[-] 1 points by BonTon (57) 12 years ago

oh sorry I don't know about that. but I loved one head lamp.

[-] -1 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

Cut the debt by cutting federal spending.

[-] 1 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Yeah, okay. Start here:

http://www.defense.gov/Contracts/default.aspx

This is the daily list of government contracts handed out to "Defense Contractors", formerly known as "War profiteers.

This will blow your mind. The amounts of money handed out daily are STAGGERING.

Here's one little example right here, from a day in June, last year:

http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=4568

Just try to add this up in your head. Imagine, if you can, THIS MUCH MONEY.

Cut that, no more budget deficit. Problem solved. Now what?

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

I have no problem with reviewing and finding cuts in the military. As long as the sacred cows of the liberals are cut too.

[-] 1 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Why? The sacred cows of the liberals don't dominate the budget. This country is going broke because of military spending, NOT anything else. And do you realize that half of all money spent in the WORLD on military expenditures is spent by the United States? Yes, half of every dollar on planet earth spent on military stuff is spent by us. THAT is OVERKILL. Why are you happy paying for this? It's nothing but Corporate Welfare! I'll bet you're against welfare queens, right? Well the "defense" contractors are the biggest welfare queens the world has ever known! Wasting YOUR money!

[-] -1 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

"Going BROKE over military spending???" Are you nuts? To use a phrase that all your OWS folks use, "When Bill Clinton was in office he left a SURPLUS." Oh realllllyyyyy? So then,,, one MUST assume that there was no military while CLinton was president? You cant have a military and surplus,,,, CORRECT????? How in the world did Clinton have a military AND a surplus. You need to change your tune,, it is way too old.

[-] 1 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Look it up. Somebody's in denial, and it ain't me. The Bush tax cuts, combined with two to three huge WARS, have resulted in the huge defecit we have today.

It's simple math. Apparently you have trouble with that.

We're not living in Clinton's time, fool. He had no wars and didn't cut taxes on the wealthiest taxpayers.

All of this information is easily available if you would care to pay attention.

Getting rid of the Bush tax cuts would go a very very long ways toward fixing the defecit. But no, the rich cannot be bothered to pay their share.

[-] -1 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

Really,,,,????? Clinton had no war? You need to Google (Dec 16, 1998) and read "Transcript President Clinton explains Air Iraq strike - CNN" Must have been the FAKE Clinton you imagine.

[-] 1 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Airstrike is hardly an invasion, especially in regards to the enormous expense. And longevity. We've now been in Afghanistan longer than we were in WWII. You can wish this stuff away, but it's facts. Deal with it.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

Oh, I see. Enormous is the definition. I didnt know that. Thanks professor.

[-] 2 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Bottom line, Clinton (who I despise, BTW) didn't get us in two endless, billion-dollars-a-day quagmires that we couldn't afford. He also didn't lower the taxes on the rich during said quagmires. With Bush and Cheney and the neo-cons, they seemed to deliberately go out of their way to destroy the country's economy, and ratchet up the defecit to levels that are absolutely destructive.

[-] 1 points by francismjenkins (3713) 12 years ago

I think he did lower capital gains tax rates, and he did sign Gramm Leach into law (overturning Glass Steagall). Sure, he wasn't as terrible as Bush, but that ain't sayin much. Clinton was not responsible for the technological innovation that gave us the booming 90's ... he just rode the wave (while sucking the dick of every corporation who knocked on his door, or that is, when he wasn't getting his dick sucked by an intern). When should stop idealizing Bill Clinton, he was as much the corporate tool as anyone else.

[-] -1 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

OK,, I got your point. So,, lets take YOUR point to this step. The Enormous IRAQ war is over. There are NO bombing runs 24/7, no huge troops, no use tanks,,,,, nearlyyyyyy, nothing going on now ANY WHERE compared to during Bush. So,,,, where is all that money we are saving today???? Please dont say Afganistan because there is no where close to the amount in Iraq. So one would assume we are saving billions daily with no Iraq. So, Bush is gone and you should be very proud and happy that all that money being spent on Iraq war is now going toward the debt or toward some social program orrrrrrrrrr, something. You must be so happy. You wish has been granted,,,, where is the money that you claim was going toward WAR???????

[-] 1 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Listen, take some responsibity for yourself and look up the figures yourself. I'm not your Mom. The amount of money we're spending in Afghanistan, and yes, Iraq (still 50,000 freaking troops there, okay?) and in Pakistan, Sudan, and now Libya (we're sending 12K troops there rightnow) is staggering.

Hell, just look at this video someone shot at a railroad crossing of countless brand-new tanks being delivered to ... somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=OS-PmhhxPG4

Then check out this site, which is the military's own site, listing the contracts they're handing out on EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR.

http://www.defense.gov/Contracts/default.aspx

It will blow your mind. This is Corporate Welfare of epic proportions.

Here's a list just from June 30, 2011

http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=4568

Do the math. Read. Look shit up. I'm not gonna do any more for you.

Check out the numbers on the Bush tax cuts. Look at the graphs and the pie charts. It's not that hard. Look at what an ENORMOUS part of our current deficit is caused by both his tax cuts (which Obama has kept along with all of other Bush's policies) and the ongoing, neverending wars.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

No,,, YOU dont want to look it up for yourself because you will find we are not spending,,, or should not,,, be spending the same today that we would be spending on 24/7 bombing raids with cruise missiles and troops and support in Iraq. What would be the purpose of obama bringing everyone home if we are going to spend the same amount of money???? Because we arent. We are not spending anywhere close to what we were spending. Back then you libs were whining about the huge amount and now that we arent,, you have a problem finding something to blame of equal value. You want to figure out how to blame Bush on all the spending,,, obama closes it down and you still want to blame Bush on the spending.

[-] 2 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Hey, dumbass, show me where the defense department spending has gone DOWN any time in the last twelve fucking years.

You're living in a fantasy world. Grow the fuck up.

And quit LYING. The world isn't as you say. You are LYING.

And anybody starts saying "you libs" needs to get the fuck out of here, because he or she is just a goddamn dirty troll.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

The WAR is over idiot. obama closed Gitmo. He got rid of the Patriot Act. He has cut the budget for defense WAY back because he didnt want to my like Bush. You must have missed thoses stories. I didnt read at the top of the page this was a liberal site and republicans were not welcome. I would not believe OWS would CENSOR people. THE WAR IS OVER.

[-] 1 points by Nordic (390) 12 years ago

Wow I'm laughing my ass off here.

a. Obama did not close Gitmo. It's still open, still full of political prisoners.

b. He didn't get rid of the Patriot Act. It's still in full affect.

c. He hasn't decreased the Defense budget one iota. All the war funding bills have gone through, everything they asked for. What they're trying to sell as a "reduction" in the future defense spending is actually nothing more than a smaller INCREASE.

d. The wars are continuing. And then some. Remember Libya? Whose cruise missiles do you think those were that blew the hell out of that place? Are you paying the slightest bit of attention to what we're doing in Pakistan? Do you know we're in Somalia now?

e. Where the HELL are you reading this bad information? You are just completely ass-backwards WRONG about, well, damn near everything!

f. The joke is on you. You have opened your mouth and proved yourself a fool. Better to remain quiet. You are easily the most ignorant Rethug I've ever run into and believe me THAT is saying something!

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

Actually, the joke is on you. I put those items in the post as what obama HAS NOT DONE as promised. "On day one I will close Gitmo, etc and etc" Everyone knows he didnt close Gitmo as promised and HE sign to continue the Patriot Act. You are not as clever as you think you are. You should be laughing at yourself. (talk about ass-backward,, you are pal)

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Oh yeah, that'll solve humanities problems. Man, some people have such simple solutions to such complex problems that you envy them. Truely, ignorance must be a kind of bliss.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

You typing on the computer solves the humanity problems? You must be proud.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Are you saying the exchange of ideas has no effect on human problems?

[-] -2 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

Previously, I posted, "Cut the debt by cutting federal spending" and you replied that my simple ideas would not solve humanities problems. I gave a suggestion and then you post that WE should all exchange ideas. I gave an idea, and you just whined. Interesting on how that works.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

whatever.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

Your idea sounds good if you are not beholden to the state for health care and minimum wage subsidization. As I see it, there is no room for cutting the Federal budget so I suggest we raise the taxes on the one percent. The threat of such an action, might be enough to entice them to order their lap dogs, Congress, to raise the minimum wage and rally for universal Health Care. Any thing less, would be capitulation to the faction that wrecked the economy, and surrendering to hostage takers, just does not seem very American. But if you were talking about cutting corporate welfare and military expenditures, I believe those would be good steps taken with my suggestions. Cut GE's subsidization, give it to middle America through tax cuts and they may be enticed to employ workers at fair wages. Also if middle america no longer has to pay for their employees health insurance, then maybe they will be able to expand their businesses.

[-] -2 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

My wife never seems to "understand", that there is a limit one should have when you go shopping. Just because there are still checks in the checkbook does not mean there is money to cover it. That seems like such a simple thing to understand, but she does not. I, on the other hand, regularly check the balances. I tend to save up money so when the AC goes out or a new roof is needed, there is money to take care of it. If I can do that, why not my wife, why not YOU and why not our federal government. $15 Trillion in DEBT is like facial hair on a beautiful womans face. No matter how much eye makeup, SHAVE the hair. Shave the debt and America will be beautiful. If $15 Trillion is not enough, how much more, $50 Trillion? If you raised the taxes on the richest of rich (liberal democrats in congress and Hollywood) do YOU reallllllllllyyyyyyy think in your mind, that it would solve the debt problem,,, I would be really interested in your math figures. And, most of ya'allll, beat the drums about what was being spent on the war in Iraq. There are no troops in Iraq,,, or NOTHING,, I mean NOTHING, compared to what it was with daily bombing runs. Where is all that money going now that you claim was headed to Iraq? One would assume you are happy that it is going toward the government spending. Bet not. So, cut spending, draw down the debt, find waste and fraud, close Dept of Education (every state has a state education agency). There, I know you wont understand the checkbook throughts just like my wife. I'm doing OK.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

I personally live by your philosophy, but this political discussion is not about me or you for that matter. It is about where we cut the fat, do we give beautifying subsidies to those who are already fat on the hog, ie military and corporations, or do we cut if from the programs that go to the least vulnerable. As a self reliant individual who chooses not to have kids because I'm not hopped up on the American Dream rhetoric, I'll get by just fine. Political discourse that focuses on individual decisions and not the over all health of the economy is just deflection from the real points of order. If we all lived as frugal as you, well, we would not be trillions of dollars in debt and the pay master would not be on our front steps. So, to get back to the real problems at hand, where do we cut and where do we tax? Your wife's frivolous decisions are reminiscent to wall street's decisions to invest in foreign markets and the mortgage industries' disregard for fiduciary responsibilities. So because we are in a pickle, it seems like all that waste that those two industries brought to our door step, should come out of their hide.To your point about private sector waste of subsidization by our gov't, I can get on board with that. Black water, now known as XE, Halliburton and a score of other contracted employees that our gov't throws money at should see their lavish lifestyles go by the way side.

[-] -2 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

I didnt say everthing was perfect. We do have problems. Some are major. From congressional comments, there is a huge amount of waste and fraud. Where? Why? Would finding that be important? Seems not. Taxing more cant solve the problem. Every rich person the world will not bring down the debt. Corporations pay huge amounts of tax. Yes, I know what you will say. But a corporation can not survive without paying taxes, and what is called "other." Every corp must have an infrastructure, buidling, land, utilities ect and there are taxes, huge taxes on all of those annually. Every corporation must buy raw materials and there are taxes on those. Every corp typically has machinery and cars and those are taxed. Employees to pay and FICA and health insurance. Then when the finished product is sold there are taxes on that including transporation taxes. Then the corp taxes. Every salary is taxed. On top of that are the others that include legal fees, regulatory positions to follow like EPA, DOL, federal, state and local regs. It cost huge amounts of money even if every reg is followed. Those thousands and thousands of pages of regs that have that ONE that slips by and your fined big bucks. Legal fees and financial fees all include some taxes being paid. Corporations PAY taxes. I would want some kind of relief from the tax burdens. Why would anyone want to start a company and face all of this? Why would you not try to find something in the way of incentives or subsidizes to create jobs for people so they can put food on the table? If not corporations,,, will YOU?

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

The way you tell it, I'm a monster for wanting those corporations to pay more. But after hearing how GE walked away last year with money received while cutting American jobs to make the profit margins bigger for the share holders, I am not sad that their jobs are so hard and meticulous. You know who could help them, maybe, how about they hire the lady who raises three kids, works three part-time jobs and manages' her pocket book as well as you do. And if you say that the only way I'll ever see that happen is if the gov't gives a corporation another welfare check, ie tax credit, I'm going to suggest you just go and give it to the mother so she can spend it on her children and the life she never has time for, and the amenities she seems to never be able to afford. Your suggestion is Trickle Down economics; my suggestion is more Conservative. I say go back to before Reagan's Vodoo economics ever became rational.

[-] -1 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

I fail to read anything in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution or Bill of Rights about solving anyones economic position in life. That mother you speak of, could have been the same mother from 1700's-1800's that traveled across the empty land and seemed to make it in deep snow and heat of the summer. There was no corporations, no welfare. I'm not suggesting she receive nothing today,,,, SHE DOES. There is no mention of GE in those documents either, but they DO receive. I SUGGEST that YOU (not really you, but they whom could) be something greater than GE. Everyday someone starts a new corporation, heck, there are even forms available on every states economic development websites that you can fill in in less than 5 mintues. Start a corp, hire who you want, pay what you want, do or dont take incentives. Hire the lady with three kids and pay her $50/hour with full benefits. Donate any or all profits to who you want. Don't follow Reagn's VODOOOOOO trickle down, because YOU DONT HAVE TO if you dont want to. The ball really is in your court. YOU help the lady with three kids in a greater amount than the $15 TRILLION we are already in debt to support her. JUST DO IT. Dont let me stop you. I dont get the hate against corps when you can form your own,,, TODAY,,,, and set the best examples that the world will follow. I bet you wont because YOU, (not YOU) want to put your hands in my pockets and decide how much I give. You have the power to solve the problems but it seems to be more talk. "When all is said and done,,, at the end of the day, more will be said than done."

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

I see now that the free part in your name has blinded you to the discussion so because you are so blind as to see that corporate America is a shining example of a welfare nation, being all the contracts and subsidies and bail outs epitomize the welfare state, you are defending your brand of socializm against my brand of socialism. The z makes your flavor fascism and mine is majoritarian. Where as you pray at the alter of a totalitarian institution, the corporation, I exonerate the Federalist brand of socialism. Now, we could agree to resolve are difference in the middle, regulated markets and progressive taxation of wealth, or we can continue to talk past one another. 'Cause honestly I believe my brand is morally superior to your brand. Where as your beloved corporations rape and pillage the lands of this nation in the pursuit of unaccountable life, liberty and the pursuit of private domination of the nation, all the while taking federal welfare checks, I believe that my brand would ensure that the money would be better spent allowing the average person those inalienable rights that you selfishly proclaim for your corporations. It's kinda hard and disingenuous of you to tell me I don't have to use Voodoo economics when all the stimulus is in the pocket of the corporation. You need to stop defending socializm

[-] -2 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

The difference between you and me. You want everyone else to change their ways but you are not willing to introduce your way as an alternative. 236 years and corporations are still working. You have the opportunity to introduce something new and you are not interested in doing that. Destroy rather than create is your way.

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 12 years ago

You can try to make me feel bad because I want to tax out of existence the free riding corporation. (Edit: make it a contributing member to the union by making it pay its fair share ) The multinational corporations are entities our military is always fighting wars to protect. What ever allows you to sleep well at night is all I can say to you assertion that I want to destroy while you benevolently create. And to tax an entity does not mean the entity is destroyed it just means the entity is paying its fair share. Besides, you are being melodramatic with your words. I am only making an argument in the fashion of debate. You are defending corporate socializm while I am defending the other. I just hope the majority is wise enough to see that your brand is destructive to the whole.

[-] -2 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

"Tax out of existence the free riding corporation?" I would assume you have an alternative job for the employees ready? What is the name of your company that will supply the jobs for these people? You do have a company,,, right? You wont allow those people to be put out of work to make you HAPPY?

[-] 0 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Do you really, serously, believe that cutting federal spending will solve the complex problems we all now face? If you do, than I appologize for my remark. I had assumed you were being ironic.

[-] 1 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

If your car is out of gas and you have a flat tire simply filling up with gas does NOT solve the complex problem but it is a start. But you may need to fill up the tank to drive the car to get the tire fixed. Cutting federal spending does not solve the complex problem but doing everything else with a $15 trillion debt does zero. You gotta start "somewhere." If $15 trillion today is not enough, will $20 trillion do it, will $50 trillion make everyone happy? My guess is,,, NO. If you over taxed every billionaire in Amerrica,, you have not solved the problem. If you raised the taxes on everyone and revenue was coming in,,,, I would bet my LIFE,,,, someone will want to then increase expenses,,, and $100 Trillion could be your gggggchildrens problem. There you go,,, Ironic,,, isnt it?

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

Does the unfair burden placed on middle and lower income people factor into your thinking here at all?

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

I'm middle income,, so aske me. NOPE,, I dont think there is an unfair burden. I hope that finally answered your question about that subject. I feel like I pay "A" fair share of taxes. I bet the rich feel they pay "A" fair share of taxes. But 51% of Americans pay ZERO in income taxes,,, and,, they get a federal tax refund on paying nothing. I actually,, DONT think that is fair. THere you go with my idea of fairness as a middle income person.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

I'll take your word about your income level, just for the heck of it, but I doubt many middle income earners will agree with you.

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

There are a lot of nice new homes being built. I see a lot of nice fancy cars as I drive to work. I see a lot of well dressed people. I see sales for Christmas were way up. I see a pretty good stock market. Now, saying that, I am a very middle income earner. I pay what I consider a fair share in income taxes. Would I like to pay less,,,,, actually,,, I dont think so. Would I want to pay more,,, no. Do I see people very capable of working that dont because they are encouraged to stay home? Yes. Do they get my taxes, Yes. Do they receive benefits? Yes. Did they get a tax REFUND even though they didnt pay a dime in income taxes? Yes. Are there a lot of job openings in our local newpaper, some pretty good paying jobs? Yes. Do I like waste and fraud in our federal government? NO. Do I want to raise the national debt above the current $15 TRILLION? HELL NO. Are rich getting richer? Yes. For 50 years under a liberal agenda are the poor getting POORER even when the president and congress were both under democrat control? YES. Are rich liberal democrats getting RICHER? YES. Are poor liberal democrats mad at rich liberal democrats that are getting RICHER?? HELLLLL NO. I ask,,,"Why do poor people continue to vote for rich liberal democrats?" I HAVE NOOOOOOOOO IDEA.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

For fifty years we have had a liberal agenda? Nonsence! For fifty years we have had the most right-wing country in the Western World - less social spending by percentage than even Germany.

Many countries that have far greater social benefits, such as Germany, France, and the Nordic Countries have out-performed us even by the very limited conception of per capita GNP, to say nothing of the more abstract concept of standard of living.

But all of this is drivel. All you see is life through the narrowest lense. These questions are now secondary to the question of whether humanity is to have a future at all. And all you can see are fancy cars and new houses and tax refunds! All you can see is literally what is in front of your face!

You should leave these questions to those that are intellectually equipped to deal with them, people with a more expansive view, one that includes the actual condition of mankind in relation to the planetary systems that sustain us, to the totality of things on the spititual, philosophical and scientific level, as well as the economic level, and are capable of synthicizing these ideas, who see more than just the view of their neighbour's front yard.

Too many people comment here who are just out of their league. If you have something positive to contribute, fine. But if all you have to contribute is negativity and the idiotic repetition of ideas add nausium that thinking people have dismissed a hundred years ago as sheer stupidity, than you should just go back to whatever personal misery you're here trying to run from; whatever spiritual void you've created for yourself through such ignorance, and try to fix it.

Really, I'd rather dialogue with an educated member of the 1% by far than listen to this stuff.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 12 years ago

A lot of rhetoric here. Not an awful lot of reality, however.

What has my country done for me? Here's just a few you may understand. There are many more that you may not understand.

If you have food in your refrigerator, a roof over your head and a place to sleep, you are better off than 75% of the people in the world.

If you have money in the bank and change in a dish somewhere you are in the top 8% of the people in the world.

If you have gone to a church meeting without fear of harassments or fear of even death, you are not part of the 3 billion who have not ever done so.

If you woke healthy rather than in sickness, you are better off than the millions who will not survive the week.

If you can read this be thankful, for 2 billion cannot do so.

From the ashes in the American Revolution a new Phoenix arose. With it the seeds of Democracy and Capitalism were to take root in this new country. Human rights, for the first time, were to be recognized. Among those would be the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The right to life protects the individual’s ability to take all those actions necessary for the preservation and enjoyment of his life. It is based on the idea that life is the standard of moral value. The right to liberty protects the individual’s ability to think and to act on his own judgment. It is based on the idea that rationality is man’s highest moral virtue. The right to pursue happiness protects the individual’s ability to live for his own sake, rather than for the sake of society. It is based on the idea that the pursuit of one’s self-interest is one’s highest moral purpose. Whether you believe this to be right or wrong does not have any effect whatsoever on an individuals right to pursue that happiness. It is their right. Live with it.

The rise of what is called American Democracy and Capitalism has taken more people of the world out of poverty, sickness and ignorance than any previous society has ever accomplished. Deny that if you wish. That will not alter the truth of the statement.

It is possible, perhaps even probable, that the American Society, as we know it, is quickly coming to an end. Not because of what it has done or not done, but because it has spawned it's own seeds of destruction. It is now possible that people who are getting a free ride outnumber those who are NOT getting a free ride.

This, of course, is financial suicide. The reason? The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the treasury by electing people who promised to give them money from the treasury in exchange for electing them.

Should our system fail, as many of you wish it to do, then something will have to rise out of it all. Perhaps a new Phoenix is in order. And what will it be? No one really knows what form it may take. From anthropology one might make a good guess, however.

It will be strong, for if it is weak it will not even rise. It will BELONG to the strong, for the strong will always survive any change. The weak and the meek will not survive at all. If you are among them you might place your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye.

Humanity has risen to the top of the food chain by NOT being weak; by NOT being equal, for equality breeds only mediocrity. Humanity is strong. You may think you can change that, but you cannot change what humanity is and has been since it crawled from the swamp. It WILL survive. The strong will make it so.

You may believe that the lamb will someday lay down with the lion. Not today. In today's society the lamb will survive only if it grows more teeth than the lion.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

All of this is an appeal based upon nostalgia and false assumptions. Nowhere in the tradition of American Democracy does it say that some people have the right to use liberty to make themselves kings. That is a complete reversal of what democracy is all about.

You are right that American democracy has been of great benefit to mankind. That is why we must protect it from the economic royalists that would twist it's meaning to create just another form of tyranny. You sir, are a sophist - or to put it more bluntly, you spin words in a way that consciously confuses their meaning - or in other words, you are a liar.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 12 years ago

Be careful what you ask for... As for my being a liar? Of course I am. All men are. I'd much rather be an attic than a sophist, but who would understand? Ignorance can be fixed by a few trips to the library. Stupid can't be fixed at all. To think you can change a million years of mankind's heritage by a few strokes of a pen is stupid. Take a trip to the library. Start with Robert Ardreys "Social Contract".

[-] 0 points by FreeDiscussion1 (109) 12 years ago

Europe is an economic DISASTER. And you want to use Germany as an example. WOW. Europe is finding out about their liberal problems and are now voted conservative. Sorry pal, you lost the fight in the first paragraph.

[-] 1 points by GypsyKing (8708) 12 years ago

The whole West is an economic disaster - because of deregulation - allowing banks and corporations to screw consumers and amass enough money to put a bottleneck in the whole economic system.

You don't even understand economics, which is the only thing you attempt to say anything about. The whole stupid imaginary economic crisis could be solved tomorrow, if we just attacked energy independence with the same will as Roosevelt attacked the Nazis and paid for it by taxing the leasure class. That was the formula that worked then, and it would work now, but guys like you would rather see an ecomomic collapse than be proved wrong. That what a bunch of babys you are.

It hasn't been "socialism" that has caused the problem, but de-regulated corporatism - and spellbound fools like you think the solution is more deregulated corporatism. Please confine you self to commenting on something you understand, if there is anything.

[-] 1 points by Budcm (208) 12 years ago

What is a dollar? A dollar, or any medium of exchange, represents a unit of work done by an individual working in the extraction of natural resources from the earth. Take any dollar--anywhere at all--and do reverse engineering on it. It can be traced back to the person or persons who have accomplished that extraction. Ask yourself where the money in your pocket actually came from. And be honest about it. Economics is that easy.

Take twenty economists in a room and you will have twenty different ideas about the economy and how to fix it....