Forum Post: "Both parties are the same" is a 1% propaganda ploy
Posted 11 years ago on July 4, 2012, 3:39 p.m. EST by HempTwister
(667)
from Little Rock, AR
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Not only are they not the same but they have never been more polarized.
This is science. If you think the bible is a better source you might want to skip this. Also kinda techy. I was a mathematician and I don't know some of the terms. Seems the most basic left/right issue is the role of government.
You seem to miss the point that we are making. Both political parties are entrenched powers, that get power by working for the 1% that pays them!
The issues they talk about on the campaign to get into, or to hold the power, bare little resemblance to the actions they take when in power. Beyond that, the real issues are never even brought into the official corporate debates, and are never addressed by those in power.
The point is that they use these nearly pointless "issues" to play a back and forth "game",. to play peoples political/moral leanings in ways that get them to think that something is being decided, when the real issues of bankster ownership of the world, and corporate manipulations of our lives are never ever touched at all!
By all means if you can stomach it, hold you nose and vote for the democrats,. they are the lesser evil. However the degree that they are lesser, in the evil, is marginal at best,. and the "leadership" of Obama proves this every day. Drone murders, war drums, and expanding pot busts are just a few things to look into..,
I don't think it's really fair to say that even a few hundred drone strikes is only marginally different from the hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq. So, yeah, Obama might note deserve a peace prize (oh, irony), but to say he's only marginally different? If you want to warn me against thinking that Obama is our salvation, then, yeah, I totally get that. Please, let's all keep speaking out for social justice. But when voting day comes, just please don't stand aside and watch the greater of two evils take over. I guess what I'm saying is, keep it non-political, not anti-political, if that makes sense.
Yup, it is called the Two Santa Claus strategy. "bare little resemblance to the actions they take when in power. "
And if Obama came out for legalization of pot? Then would they be the same?
BTW, look at what they have done in Texas. Legalization is part of the Texas State Democratic Party platform. That did not happen by pouting.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Big $ shows up, We the People don't!
Of course it is a "Propaganda Ploy," you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-Minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
Both parties are not the same. If you vote for one, you know you are going to get screwed....and if you vote for the other, you think that you are not going to get screwed, but you do...get screwed that is.
both party support the other by opposing the other party policy. more tea?
I love your comment here. I have quoted it from you in my new thread, found here: http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-hegelian-dialectic-explained/
Strange thing is that USA spends billions to support economic and democracy transformation overseas. i mean funding the non-government organizations in many many countries to spark revolution movements and overwrought their oppressive regimes. literary speaking to bring some change (democracy). But who is gonna take care of America?
There are three separate polticial actions. 1) What they say on the Campaign 2) What they say in Office 3) What they actually do in Office. They often are completely different things.
Who controls the CIA. The CIA has been overturning democratically elected leaders in Central America, South America, and the Caribean since like 1950.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
2 During the Cold War
2.1 Communist states 1944-1989
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955-70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960-65
2.9 Iraq 1960-63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Greece 1967
2.14 Chile 1970-73
2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979-1989
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980-81
2.19 Nicaragua 1981-1990
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA Assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras
2.20 Cambodia 1980-95
2.21 Angola 1980s
2.22 Philippines 1986
3 Since the end of the Cold War 3.1 Iraq 1992-1996
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Iraq 2002-3
3.4 Venezuela 2002
3.5 Palestinian Authority, 2006-present
3.6 Somalia 2006-2007
3.7 Iran 2005-present
3.8 Libya 2011
No thanks I'll have wine. And while they have us arguing over issues that do not have so much consequence, is when they are able to agree on issues that are detrimental, and have great importance to us as to whether we can feed, clothe, send our kids off to college, and keep a roof over the heads of our families, etc. (sorry not well-worded)
as long as we continue to borrow?
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Big $ shows up, We the People don't!
Of course it is a "Propaganda Ploy," you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
I disagree. "Prejudice, Purists and Perfectionists we are not. We simply want a system that works for the people, and the one we have now does just the opposite. "....because they made their minds up over one or two flaws,"...no offense, but that is laughable to me. The "2010 TeaBag" takeover was successful because they toted the line that the corrupt elite wanted them to, hence they had big money backing them.
So what system works? Anarcho-syndicalism?
That's a good question that I still can't answer. Perhaps something like the Nordic countries have would be good for starters. What's your opinion?
No Offense, but we don't need you. Not worth the effort, bloody waste of time!
If you can't figure out who's responsible, how we got here, why they're doing it, you're either too damn dumb or in cahoots with them (Cons).
We, Most of All, Need to Get Out the VOTE!!
(Excerpt) "The (Political) system is flawed because Big $ controls it! We the People have ceded it to them by encouraged abandonment, neglect and ignorance!!!
"No, We the People 'aren't aware.' Learning that 'nothing works' and Voting 'makes no difference' is the brainwash swill Big $ wants us to believe! Is this your naivete or deception? Either way it's DEAD WRONG!!
"Orwell's 'Newspeak' and 'Doublethink' are in full operation.
"Get out the Vote, people!! If it didn't matter, these bastards wouldn't be trying soooo fucking hard to suppress it!! And they will stop at nothing!!!"
Look where "getting out the vote" has brought us in the past thirty years , or more, and that has been through dem and repub administrations. 'This' cannot be fixed at the voting booth at this point, or any time soon. We have seen a slow decline in our way of life, and our civil liberties that if anything, it has been accelerating more recently even under a dem POTUS. The corrupt elite's near total control of the corrupt corporate-owned MSM doesn't even report most of the issues that are most important to us, because it is in conflict with what 'they' want. Both parties answer to the big monied interests when it comes to things that matter the most to us, the 99%.
We have the lowest Voter turnout in the world, our Bigs ($, Biz, Oil, Ins, on and on) have the highest. WHAT DO YOU EXPECT???!!!
Yes voter apathy has been a problem as more and more people realize that it does not matter much who you vote for, but a large turn-out which is unlikely in this election will not do anything either to cure the tremendous wrongs that have been carried out on the 99%. Both parties are beholden to corporate/banking interests.
Definitive Comment 'A' on this long thread & thanx !
The 99% must Educate, Agitate & Organise !!
Because otherwise - what's the option ?!!!
per aspera ad astra ...
Agreed...thanks.
Perhaps by turning the title of this 'forum-post' and thread on its head - The Truth is closer to :
verum ex absurdo et ad iudicium ...
If fear is the greatest weapon that is carried in the arsenal of propaganda, then portraying our choices as completely polarized and limited to just two is the ultimate achievement of those who wield that most powerful weapon.
We live in a three dimensional world, but have been convinced that just one dimension exists and only two directions are possible. If you are afraid to step outside those limits, to move up and down, forward and backward, you will forever be trapped in a single dimension whose only bars are constructed of fear. Dissolve the fear and the bars will disappear.
And if you get it wrong and America ends up with another Bush you're alright with that (because you don't think things are all that bad) well I'm not. I don't think we can take ANY chance on a Republican appointing more justices and giving us more decisions like CU. You push that we should be divided that we should not join with others who want public funding, you help the 1% maintain control, wither you do so because you truly support the 1% or because you’re just falling into their trap, doesn’t matter the 1% maintain their control that’s all they care about, as long you keep up with the HUGE lie that there is no difference, lies can never fix anything.
BTW Washington couldn't stop the two parties but you think you can? it's just the way it's written, nothing we can do about that, without a conventiopn, but you know that, you just don't want Republicans to lose.
I wouldn't mind so much if we ended up with another Bush Sr. At least he knew voodoo economics was whacked out crazy talk. At this point, a Bush Sr. would be a welcome relief. And, I might even be able to choke back the vomit with another Bush Jr.. But nooooo. We'll end up with Romney, Ryan, Cantor and Boehner running the joint for the wealthy. Truly horrifying.
I've heard the same argument a hundred times. Don't fight because of what we might lose. Both parties use identical logic. They both want the status quo preserved. They know they will become extinct otherwise.
The problem is the fight never begins and we are trapped in a cycle of wait till next time. Too many have waited decades, it's time to break out and take control of our government, out from the hands of selfishness that strangle Democracy in order to preserve it.
Hasn't Obama filled Bush Jr's shoes fairly well, at least internationally. Romney is a weak candidate whose main support is from people who are anti Obama. Very few are pro Romney. It will be interesting to see how many non duopoly votes are cast as well. We are completely brainwashed by the two party system. Will the people finally get some balls by November?
Problem is - by your logic - we must risk/endure extreme short term pain (the very real possibility of a Republican controlled WH and Congress) to make a point (voting 3rd party) that 'might' result in a long term gain. And that's a mighty big 'might'. And mostly unrealistic. Millions upon millions of the least fortunate people will be truly devasted, even further than they are now, by the current crop of Republicans if they are in power.
What I think is more realistic and achievable - Mitt needs to lose big. The Repubs need to lose big in Congress. And the Dems use that momentum to swing the pendulum back to the left. We all know the whole country is too far right and thats the problem. Moving it back towards the left is the first and most realistic step towards improvement. Anything else is just pure fantasy really.
Imagine after a Republican win, the Ryan/Romney budget gets passed. Imagine elderly people who's Medicare gets cut. A poor person whose welfare is slashed because they just need to get a job damnit. Or a poor little kid who won't get a hot lunch at school anymore. When it may be his only decent meal of the day.
But really. Go ahead and stand on your principles. And when the Republicans win because you, and others like you, stood on your principles. You just remember that every day - when you're eating your lunch. Some poor little hungry kid isn't getting a lunch anymore. And give yourself a big atta-boy pat on the back for standing on principle.
Democracy does not depend on parties. But on a well informed people. And when they truly are informed, they will stop listening to the false promises on either side and listen to the voice of reason inside.
Anybody open to reason gave up on the Republican Party long ago. The only way to do this is to take them down, one at a time, we keep trying both at once and we keep failing.
"1 points by factsrfun (5535) from Phoenix, AZ 4 days ago You either raise taxes or you don't, if you don't we're screwed, that is a yes or no clear dividing line, no Republicans are on the right side of that line. I didn't do that Grover Norquist did, I just accept reality and move on if you would do the same we might have a chance of changing things, but not as long as we continue to let those who hold their word to Grover Norquist above the interest of the American people, we cannot continue to allow Republicans to hold public office. If we can't see that then we can't see much. Do you have a poll of elected GOP menmbers as to their willingness to raise taxes? How about lower taxes? That's the poll that matters. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink
[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (2221) from Sun City, CA 4 days ago Don't fall into the party trap of raising taxes. That empowers Congress and weakens us. Instead work to raise wages, independent of government. Unions, collective bargaining, and negotiation are the better methods. Trying to repair the problem of low wages by taxing the rich is a Rube Goldberg design. Indirect and ineffective. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink"
The only party hung up about taxes is the Republican Party with this comment you show which side of the line you fall on, (the side with the rest of the GOP) we have a huge defiect and huge debt, we shouldn't but because the GOP thought Washington was "taking in too much money" back in 2001 and they cut taxes, now it must be dealt with. I think the fair thing to do is let those who have benefited pay the bill, I am willing to wait till they die, how much fairer can we be? After all the only other thing to do would be take retirement pay from folks who really need it because they are still alive.
Raising wages for the poor, and encouraging union tactics to get those wages is on the Republican side? How much of the taxes will ever reach the poor when they are controlled by a Congress that is controlled by the 1%? Congress is firmly in their grip. If we can't work with them we will have to work around them.
On the matter of "Propaganda", I append the following :
"Television is the most powerful weapon of psychological warfare in history and yet it is a member of the family in most households. The programming that we are constantly assaulted with conditions us to a particular worldview. This fake reality changes our behavior making us less active and more compliant with society's shortcomings.
"Since television is controlled by a small handful of powerful corporations, viewers will never witness informing, truthful news and entertainment. As political and corporate power unite at an ever increasing rate, being informed is more important than ever.
"People need to seek out independent and alternative unbiased sources on the internet for their information or we will continue to be manipulated by the corporate controlled media."
fiat lux et ipsa scientia potestas est ...
[Removed]
“↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink [-] 2 points by jrhirsch (1950) from Sun City, CA 18 hours ago
You know that conservatives will never vanish from the political arena no matter how much you wish to see it. They see the corruption too. Join with them against our common enemy.
Both Republicans and Democrats in Congress, despite their differences, have no trouble uniting in war against corrupt leaders that rule entire countries. Why can't the people, both conservatives and liberals, despite their differences, also unite in war against the corrupt members within Congress that rule us?
↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink “
I also know that the klan will never disappear, but at least people don’t brag about it in public, I think we can make Republicans feel the same way if we work at it.
To answer your second part, easy the Republicans will never accept a tax increase, they will always take any tax cut they can get but are never willing to raise them, that’s like going to a doctor that will only lower your tempaturre, if you stick with him, he will kill you, (at around 60 body temp) so those Republicans willing to say it is time to raise taxes I welcome them, I just don’t expect any.
Did Obama join with them when he signed NDAA? Is that the kind of "reaching out" you're talking about?
We are not nearly as divided as you say. The great divide exists in your mind, not in the real world. it has been hammered there by years of political indoctrination by both parties for decades. There are many shades of gray, not just black and white.
Look at the following poll about peoples perceptions about wall streets influence and tell me how far apart are we really?
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2003/poll-wall-street-business-financial-crisis
Don't drive a car.
My Approach ends the inequity of corp profits going to the execs disproportionately and shares it more equally with average workers. Govt doesn't get the money from the law I suggest to increase average workers wages.
I would lower execs pay because it is obscenely unequal. Unjustifiably, and undeservedly. I don't think the govt gets that money and therefore shouldn't get "empowered"
My suggestion for 90% taxrate is in regards to paying down the debt that the plutocrats created.. not addressing wage inequity.
Do you really think that Congress will pay down the debt?
Don't get your speeding car analogy.
What exactly do we disagree on.?
Do you drive a car?
We disagree on how to repair the problem of wealth inequality. I say increase lower wages, you say limit higher wages.
Your solution empowers the government.
My solution empowers the people.
Certainly we should work towards raising wages, and your suggestions are a good strategy.
I would not exclude correcting the low tax rates the 1% are enjoying of course. We shold start with a 90% rate for income over a million dollars. but not raise wages for the 99%. rather to pay down the debt that the 1% created.
In so far as 99% wage increase as I said your approach is a good start. I would also take a good look at passing laws that require a certain amount of corp income go to the workers. We should also minimize how much profit goes to the top execs.
That'll go a long way.
Raising only the top marginal rate is something I would support.
"I would not exclude correcting the low tax rates the 1% are enjoying of course. We should start with a 90% rate for income over a million dollars. but not raise wages (TAXES?) for the 99%. rather to pay down the debt that the 1% created."
I took a look at your link, if your concern is that rich people treat each other fairly looks like some on the right are concerned too, but I think the rich are too damn rich and they are screwing with my government too. If OWS is just about rich people getting some better rules for their money then I don't think we will have done nearly enough, we must address the wealth concentration too and that means taxes.
You either raise taxes or you don't, if you don't we're screwed, that is a yes or no clear dividing line, no Republicans are on the right side of that line. I didn't do that Grover Norquist did, I just accept reality and move on if you would do the same we might have a chance of changing things, but not as long as we continue to let those who hold their word to Grover Norquist above the interest of the American people, we cannot continue to allow Republicans to hold public office. If we can't see that then we can't see much.
Do you have a poll of elected GOP menmbers as to their willingness to raise taxes? How about lower taxes? That's the poll that matters.
Don't fall into the party trap of raising taxes. That empowers Congress and weakens us. Instead work to raise wages, independent of government. Unions, collective bargaining, and negotiation are the better methods. Trying to repair the problem of low wages by taxing the rich is a Rube Goldberg design. Indirect and ineffective.
In reply to your below comment, yes i too am amazed how people have become so docile. I expect that it is because they are so stressed out from the daily grind of finding it more, and more difficult to make ends meet that they don't take the time to really understand what is causing their plight. And when they turn on the television, or read the MSM they are fed a bunch of garbage.
The "political power" that you spoke of in the comment below will only come about when enough people have been awoken like the people here on this forum. Most people know that something is amiss, but don't understand 'what' as well as most of us here do. Repubs are blaming it on the dems, and vice versa when it is really a concerted effort by both to advance an agenda that answers to corporate and banking interests, and not the people's interests.
Wages at the top could be limited by a cap, or by a higher progressive taxes, whatever works. After coming out of the Gilded Age, and the Great Depression, Roosevelt had the steam (support) that he needed to pass a very high upper-wage end tax. I believe it was 91%, and even during Reagan's tenure it was around 50%, and in the early part of Reagan's presidency the top 1 % of the country held just under 10% of the total wealth. That figure has increased to approximately 23.5% today which is about the same as it was in 1928.
The elite did not cave into Roosevelt because he was a nice guy though, but instead it was because the vast majority of the people were outraged. 'They' were scared of losing capitalism, as the commies were waiting in the wings. We need that 'mass outrage' before we can accomplish our goals. Boycotting corporations is a good idea on the face, but considering how much we have come to rely on them, it would be difficult to boycott them all at once. I think if we made a list of the top ten most egregious corps, and then boycotted them one at a time....that would work. But even there we need more people aware, and that will take reaching out to them, and educating them. I feel confident that something will trigger the awakening of the masses, but I am sad to say I don't believe it will be good news for us as a people. To put simply, it will take more pain.
Thanks for your efforts, and having big "balls." I am out there too.
True, I can't think of a more important message than one of "education". Occupy takes a lot of flak for not having a "message", but in my opinion just our pointing out all of the massive amounts of corruption is the "message"! Judging by the latest Presidential poles, still the people slumber.
Had to reply here. I think we should do both, limit higher wages, and increase low wages to bring us back to a happy medium. Many high-end salaries sky-rocketed because of the bankers setting up an irresponsible system in which they were unduely way over-compensated. The rationale was that a person with an equal education could make more money in banking, so we have to compensate our people better if we want to keep them in the field that they are in. So at about the same time as banker's compensation packages started going into the stratosphere, so did corporate executive salaries to the point of making approximately 200-300 times as much as the average worker, as opposed to app. 25-30 times that 30 years ago or so. And all this has happened as more and more of our jobs get out-sourced over-seas.
Accomplishing your goals takes political power. The people have given up that power and let corporate America take their place in the drivers seat. Do you mean to limit upper wages by a cap or by a tax? A cap would be fought tooth and nail. Even limiting high end wages by raising taxes is unlikely. What's the highest rate now, 35%? Can you imagine the screams that would echo through the halls of Congress if they even mentioned doubling that figure? Passing aggressive legislation through a corporate dominated Congress will be nearly impossible.
The preferable method is for the people to boycott these corporations that outsource, pay low wages, and unfairly influence both Congress and the voters. It's the one tactic that the powerful can't fight. Whether the people decide to stand up or not, I'll be out there holding my sign, raising awareness and encouraging them to get off the couch, find their balls, and finally take back was has been stolen from them.
Sure we'll get to it. The Dems balanced the budget and created a surplus. As soon as we get rid of enough repub spending fools outta office we'll get back to work.
Wages should be raised for the 99%. By passing laws that dictate that a certain portion of corp profits must go to average workers. The law should also dictate that the execs can't take the obscene amounts they take now. (300-400%more than average workers is too much.).
So thats how I would like to see wages raised for the 99%
You would repair a car speeding out of control because of a stuck throttle by installing stronger brakes?
I meant I would raise taxes on the 1% to pay down the debt. Not to increase the wages of the 99%.
I think cutting taxes for the 99% might be a job creator since their consumerism would be the incentive for corps to hire.
Why shouldn't wages be raised for the 99%?
Bingo. This should be a top post every single day.
I agree wholeheartedly and thus append :
http://occupywallst.org/forum/one-day-like-this-will-see-me-right-by-tom-ich-fee/ &/or
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31840.htm .
per ardua ad astra ...
So you do admit that the country (world) is controled by the D's and R's right?
That hasn't been lost in your multi demensional view has it.?
While we fight to recreate the govt from the ground up with horizontal, direct democracy we must not allow more conservative plutocrat tools to gain more power.
VOTE! Don't listen to people who would have you give up your right to vote!.
Vote out pro ALEC voter suppression politicians
The world is controlled by a small group of individuals whose wealth and power are their bond, not political affiliation.
I don't look at the party, but at the individual corruption within the body of democracy. Both sides are diseased. Focus on the cancerous cells, not one entire side of the body. We desperately need the healthy parts of both sides united to fight off this common threat to the health of our Democracy.
Bailouts are not conservative but they did embrace it for their bankster friends. Then "we had to do it, or credit would seizeup!" remember that can job. But a conservative would say let the business fail. They don't help anyone ..... but themselves. hence the exception for the banksters.
However when Pres Obama wanted to help GM because he recognized that the auto industry is critical for jobs throughout the midwest (not just Michigan) theconservative were and still are against it.
I guess your against it to.
So the GM bailout was a good thing (and believe a liberal.progressive policy) because it saved the American auto industry.
Peace
Yes, I'm against the bailouts, not so much for the short term as for the long. Chrysler has been bailed out twice. The savings and loans once. The too big to fail banks once. It sets an expectation that they will never be allowed to fail and so will continue to act recklessly.
Why the difference in attitude between bailing out a bank and an auto manufacturer? Aren't they both businesses?
Why should any business be to big to fail? Is that not a monopoly, leaving no room for entrepreneurs to move up the line. Most of all in the auto industry, energy, and food industry. Isn't saying Monsanto is to big to fail like stabbing yourself in the face. These companies are crooked and they fail us every day, might just as well say theres no one in the 99% smart enough to handle it. The GM bailout was the worst thing, it gives no hope to the people ready to step in and try to do it better. If I steal from one person I will go to jail, If the world banks steal from everyone, we pay them more money? If I manage my business bad, it is disassembled and shut down. why shouldn't that be true for any business. Shouldn't people (corporations) that steal go to jail and be held accountable for there actions or is that just for the 99%? Did they end slavery, or did they just perfected it?
LMFAO. Oh that is funny. Well certainly we can make up examples of what would be too much help. I don't think that is really a problem, nor do I think it is even happening. But it is very funny.
You should have your own show.
Lets not use your example as truth or as a reason not to help the weak.
Would you laugh at the example of the overweight person if it was applied to the bail out of a large corporation like GM that was weighed down by too many auto brands and dealerships?
Is the bailout a liberal or conservative solution?
The forum's least educated poster comments on something he has no clue about again....
Go turn on the TV and veg out for a while. You are not helping, you are hurting.
The policies we need:
90% tax rate on million $ income.
stronger regulations on big business
Free college
public health care option
investment in greentech/infrastructure industry, and jobs.
money out of politics
You attach whatever label you think applies. I will call it progressive, because I see them as representative of progress.
It is possible to advocate for a policy without any label. What is important is the reasoning that supports that policy. It can't just be because it seems right.
Like in Algebra, it's not the answer that matters, it's how you arrived at it.
the auto industry is an American manufacturing corp. Employs hundreds of thousands (incl downstream). And the banksters were reckless and irresponsible with our money then came to us and said give us money or we will strangle credit. We got mugged.
I support workers. not 1% financial plutocrats.
Peace
Nah. We are all stronger when we are all stronger. We don't help the weak too much, because we still got weak.
The strong are just gettin stronger at the expense of the weak. I welcome all the "millionaires for the 99%" Maybe that is an example of people steppin over the big wall.
In any event. we need more people who believe in the progressive solutions that will correct the destructive conservative policies that the 1% plutocrats have gotten our politicians (dem and repub) to pass.
Do we agree?
[Removed]
We can provide too much help to the weak. Feeding a person who weighs 600 Lbs. and is trapped by their size in their own house. Is the person providing that food helping or hindering?
But it is not possible to educate and inform the population if we pretend that the political spectrum has been rescinded in America. It hasn't. It is simply a means of illustrating the 2 historic natural approaches to dealing with the human condition.
Some think we should care for the weak (progressives)
Others think we should let them fend for themselves. cull the race. survival of the fittest (conservative)
We do a disservice if we do not take a stand on the issues that hurt the 99% and clearly state that our solutions are progressive. We like progress. When people push conserving our stuff we see that as selfish and greedy.
Reality thats all. Good and Evil.
Peace
I don't want to pretend the divide does not exist, but to show that the walls are not as high as we have been led to believe and can be torn down and stepped across or straddled.
The political walls that divide us are reinforced by the leaders on either side. Their power is derived by the division of each group. That power is lost when our fear of moving across those walls is lost. That lost fear is replaced by power.
Between survival of the fittest and excessive protection of the weakest lies a balance point. The extreme choice on either side are both bad. One results in the strength of the fit at the expense of the weak, the other the strength of the weak at the expense of the fit.
Nice analogy.
As I said if you can show me a conservative who doesn't support the conservative policies that have crashed the economy, I will welcome them in the struggle against the conservative 1% policies that serve the plutocrats.
definetely lets drain that conservative policy pus
Here's an interesting graphic about how different political groups view Wall Street:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2003/poll-wall-street-business-financial-crisis
The left and right side is not as divided as we are told. In fact I am more convinced that our polarization is fueled by the propaganda from both sides.
Lets drain that liberal policy pus too!
Because conservatives want to cut wealthy taxes, cut corp regulations, cut services and jobs for middle class. because conservative believe money=speech, and corps are people.
Progressives want the opposite. Thats why.
But you are correct conservatives aren't going away. And a coming together is required to improve the lives of the 99%!
The coming together of all the many progressive groups, Green, Working families, Moveon.org, NAACP, immigrant supporters, Sierra club, OWS, Socialists, Anarchists, (and many more). We must find common ground in our opposition to the destructive conservative policies that enrich the plutocrats at the expense of the 99%.
Is that what you mean? If so I'm with you.
Peace
The coming together will require both conservatives and liberals. A body split in two can't function. That is why the infection in the head, the 1%, remains. It will take two hands to reach up and open the wound, letting the infected pus of the 1% drain out.
I haven't identified the healthy part of the right wing. The left wing is diseased and but we must attempt to heal them.
Because the left are likely to support the progressive policies we need to undo the conservative 1% plutocrat policies that screwed everything up.
You know that conservatives will never vanish from the political arena no matter how much you wish to see it. They see the corruption too. Join with them against our common enemy.
Both Republicans and Democrats in Congress, despite their differences, have no trouble uniting in war against corrupt leaders that rule entire countries. Why can't the people, both conservatives and liberals, despite their differences, also unite in war against the corrupt members within Congress that rule us?
I would be easier to find the comments if a new thread got started with that title. It's all yours shadz! :-)
or “I’m so blind I don’t know my ass from a hole in the ground”
2000 never again NO MORE BUSHS!!!
Did you support the Iraq war? Did you rally around the American flag and salute the bombs going off overseas? Did you fall for the w.m.d. ploy to rally us against the other guys across the waters, so the 1% could profit off the MIC and protect our oil interests?
I'm betting you did not. I'm betting you did not fall prey to blind patriotism and become a willing foot soldier and cheer along for the sake of a silly thing like national borders. I'm betting you criticized others for their blind patriotism. I'm betting you thought bigger than the imaginary borders that separates nations and divides them. I'm betting you believe in the ideal of solidarity with the people and did not cheer when people died in this needless war.
Do you rally around the Democrat Party Flag? Do you fall for the Democrats pitting you against your neighbor while they help themselves to the pie? Do you support war? Do you support psychological warfare between the two parties? Do you blindly wave the Democrat Party Flag?
I'm betting you do. I'm betting you do fall prey to blind patriotism and become a willing foot soldier and cheer along for the sake of a silly thing like party borders. I'm betting you do not think any bigger than the imaginary party borders that separates citizens and divides them. I'm betting you do not believe in the ideal of solidarity with the people and cheer when our liberties get eroded. I bet you give the democrats a pass when they hurt your brothers and sisters. But it is okay, you are patriotic and serve your democratic party well. You should hold your head high.
oh and about the war, no I thought it was stupid, like voting Republican, but you know what I didn't go and join the terrorist either, that seems to be your reasponse, you help the GOP do their work by helping them win the office,
get in the game buddy this shit is for real
In case your as dense as your political opinion, let me spell it out I do not have to be a “blind patriot” to not be a terrorist, and I do not have to love the Ds to hate the GOP I just have to pay attention to what’s going on in this country to do that.
oh and about the war, no I thought it was stupid, like voting Republican, but you know what I didn't go and join the terrorist either, that seems to be your reasponse, you help the GOP do their work by helping them win the office,
Think critically for a second, If my opinion is wrong and my opinion is the same as OWS (will not engage in politics - do not need politicians), then you are basically accusing the OWS movement, which you claim to support, to be a bunch of idiots who don't know what they are doing. If that is your opinion, then why are you here?
get in the game buddy this shit is for real
party borders are imaginary, unless you believe in them.
In case your as dense as your political opinion, let me spell it out I do not have to be a “blind patriot” to not be a terrorist, and I do not have to love the Ds to hate the GOP I just have to pay attention to what’s going on in this country to do that.
My political opinion is the same as OWS (apolitical). If you think OWS is so dense, why are you here? to co-opt?
I didn't get the memo where you were the offical OWS spokeperson, are you sure you're not trying to "co-opt" us?
CU is imaginary too, unless you believe in it.
Your comment here includes only criticism of the Democrats specifically. Why Not republicans.?
Democrats can be dragged back from the right and made to serve the 99%. Repubs are too far gone. While we fight for the recreated givt (from the gound up, horizontal, direct democracy) Do not forget to Vote!.
Don't believe repub pass givers who want to keep progressives from voting.
Support OWS. Vote out pro NDAA policticians
I didn't use "racist" as a jab. Only to illustrate that it is not preferable to decide who to vote for based simplyon whether they are establishment or not. Gotta vote based on issues/policies.
You brought up the issue of racism (not me) and implied that I should defend myself against your charge that I might possibly be a racist and vote accordingly. Dear sir, that is a jab at my character to bait me into defending a baseless accusation. Take your own advice and please remain respectful.
Some establishment pols are good. (I like Sanders. you Paul). Some non establishment are bad. I figured you would agree that a non establishment racist would be bad. But you didn't commit. Hmmmmm?
You are incorrigible. You are so defensive of the democratic party and getting Obama reelected, you will go the lengths of painting any voice who speaks out against corrupt politicians into a far right winger.
You realize this thinking accuses the entire OWS movement of being far right wing supporters. Have you forgotten already that the movement is against being dragged into politics and supporting corrupt politicians. I'm no doctor, but I believe you have a severe memory problem.
I associate the plutocrat 1% policies with conservatives not necessarily repubs. Some repubs can be against some conservative policies like your boy Ron Paul. And some conservatives can have an epiphany and come over to the progressive side. It could happen. Elect progressive. Agitate for direct democracy.
Support OWS. We don't need corrupt politicians.
We do not need corrupt politicians.
Elect progressives. Vote out conservative politicians.
So then you don't support racists even if they are non establishment? Or is non establishment the only criteria for you?
Vote for non establishment candidates"? That is the wrong measure to consider. What if they are non establishment but racists? even you wouldn't vote for that right? Vote for candidates who support the progressive solutions we need to correct the destructive conservative policies that hurt the 99%.
Racist? Why do make such baseless implications that I would support a racist? Do you not have any respect for the people you talk to. That low ball jab does not even deserve a response. However, it does say a lot about how your mind works and how you engage with people. You say you want me to remain respectful with you, but you are not holding yourself to the same restraints.
You say "you will not demonize an entire group of people" I assume you meant with the exception of the establishment politicians. You certainly are demonizing them. And maybe for good reason. Most are corrupt. But not all. I like Bernie Sanders, and others, I've seen your side lift up Ron Paul. In any event I guess you just don't want to demonize the conservatives. There you go again providing cover for your conservative friends.
Only a little while ago, I told you that I disagree with most conservative policies and ideas. Therefore, I am not a Ron Paul lifter upper. You show little respect for my words when you intentionally choose not to remember a damn thing I've said.
I don't think all conservatives have to be evil. As I've said repeatedly it is the conservative policies that I object to. There are always some dems who betray progressive principles and cave in to vote for conservative policies. They must be voted out! If there exists a conservative who does not support the destructive plutocratic conservative policies they would not be evil. Do you know any?
It seems obvious that the majority of conservatives would support conservative policies, that is why they call them conservatives. Did you expect conservatives to support progressive policies?
The mistake is associating plutocrat 1% policies with only the Republican party, while admitting the corrupt dems support and go along with those policies. But you probably forget that part right. You have a habit of forgetting everything after five seconds any way.
I didn't use "racist" as a jab. Only to illustrate that it is not preferable to decide who to vote for based simplyon whether they are establishment or not. Gotta vote based on issues/policies.
Some establishment pols are good. (I like Sanders. you Paul). Some non establishment are bad. I figured you would agree that a non establishment racist would be bad. But you didn't commit. Hmmmmm?
I associate the plutocrat 1% policies with conservatives not necessarily repubs. Some repubs can be against some conservative policies like your boy Ron Paul. And some conservatives can have an epiphany and come over to the progressive side.
It could happen.
Elect progressive. Agitate for direct democracy.
So you got no plan except encouraging progressives not to vote. But wouldn't that help the conservatives?
Are you talking about conservative politicians, or every conservative period.
I think I get it. You don't mind helping conservatives, just as you name republican mistakes specifically.
No, I don't mind helping conservatives or any body else for that matter. Conservatives are not my enemy. Corrupt politicians are my enemy. Propagandist leaders are my enemy.
I disagree with many conservative positions and ideas. But there is nothing evil about a conservative position. I will not turn every conservative in the world into my enemy because the democrat party or any body else tells me all conservatives are evil and must be gotten rid of. Only a fool believes that. Conservatives are people just like you and me.
I will speak out against extreme views that should not be supported, and I will not in any way shape or form help corporations and special interest groups stay in power by supporting candidates who are beholden to them. I will not demonize an entire group of people for the sake of winning a political victory. If I allow them to make me like them (the corrupt politicians that is), then I have already lost.
I know you want to make this into an us vs. them, rally around the party flag and go to battle. But I am a peaceful man at heart, and I will not let power hungry controlling authority figures spilling out propaganda over the airwaves fill me with fear and hate for my neighbors.
Your so clever.
I wish I were more clever and could come up with easy answers to fix all this shit, but the truth is we have corrupt politicians in both of the parties and I am being honest when I say that I don't see how any good can come from voting for corrupt people. It is like saying horrible job, now here's my vote anyway !
That makes little sense to me. The entrenched candidates will not get my vote. My vote will go elsewhere because I want to fire their sorry asses !
Vote early, progressive, and often!!!!!!!!
Support OWS. You don't need corrupt politicians. They don't have your interest at heart. Vote for non establishment candidates only.
Vote for non establishment candidates"? That is the wrong measure to consider. What if they are non establishment but racists? even you wouldn't vote for that right? Vote for candidates who support the progressive solutions we need to correct the destructive conservative policies that hurt the 99%.
You say "you will not demonize an entire group of people" I assume you meant with the exception of the establishment politicians. You certainly are demonizing them. And maybe for good reason. Most are corrupt. But not all. I like Bernie Sanders, and others, I've seen your side lift up Ron Paul. In any event I guess you just don't want to demonize the conservatives. There you go again providing cover for your conservative friends.
I don't think all conservatives have to be evil. As I've said repeatedly it is the conservative policies that I object to. There are always some dems who betray progressive principles and cave in to vote for conservative policies. They must be voted out! If there exists a conservative who does not support the destructive plutocratic conservative policies they would not be evil.
Do you know any?
Conservative policies are at the root of our problems.! They support less regulation, and lower taxes for the wealthy! Progressives support the opposite!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! your overuse of exclamation marks is getting tiresome.
Conservatives support the money= speech, corps are people obscenity that allows the buying of the peoples govt. Progressives DO NOT.!!
Where can I find this progressive party, maybe I'll support it.
Support OWS.! Vote out anti Union politicians!!
Voting does not support OWS. OWS has a clearly stated position on politicians - "we don't need politicians". You support OWS by getting involved in pointing out injustice, educating the public, actively protesting, and starting ventures that help communities and people.
We disagree, but I don't need to call you names so please refrain as well.
Please refrain from exclaiming every other sentence with a ' ! ". If you had any manners, you would know this comes across as though you are a rude person trying to start a shouting match.
So with your belief of what the root of the problem is what strategy do you recommend/support?
See above.
So you got no plan except encouraging progressives not to vote. But wouldn't that help the conservatives?
I think I get it. You don't mind helping conservatives, just as you never name republican mistakes specifically.
Your so clever.
Vote early, progressive, and often!!!!!!!!
I don't support republican military policy. I don't follow dems blindly!
Yes, actually you do. Every time you allow them to pit you against something, you are being pulled away from voting for what you really support.
You don't criticize repubs by name! You never acknowledge the reality that conservative policies are at the root of our problems.
I see reality different than you. The root of our problems is undemocratic workplaces and unfair distribution of profits - which both parties support. Democrats represent the interest of unions and Republicans represent the interests of private ownership. Neither addresses the root of the problem.
You never push the progressive policies we need to improve the lives of the 99%
Do they address the root of the problem?
Vote out conservative 1%tools, elect progressives!! Peace
Vote for equality in the workplace.
Conservative policies are at the root of our problems.! They support less regulation, and lower taxes for the wealthy! Progressives support the opposite!
Conservatives support the money= speech, corps are people obscenity that allows the buying of the peoples govt.
Progressives DO NOT.!!
Support OWS.! Vote out anti Union politicians!!
We disagree, but I don't need to call you names so please refrain as well.
So with your belief of what the root of the problem is what strategy do you recommend/support?
"your grasp of the obvious is not working"? insults = weak arguments.!
Dumb questions = the inability to grasp the obvious.
You mentioned repub policies in your comment but left out the republican party that created them so I don't buy your excuse.
I contrasted blind patriotism for national borders with blind patriotism for political parties. I pointed out how you guys criticize the right for their blind patriotism to defend our imaginary borders, and don't recognize your own similar behavior as it relates to carrying out blind patriotism to a political party. I am not asking you to buy anything. I am offering a perspective on patriotic behavior, take whatever meaning you like from it - it is free of charge to read it.
You are consistently anti democrat! and consistently leave out criticism of republicans by name.
You are a consistently pro-democratic party patriotic flag waver who acts just like the nameless republican party flag wavers. If the shoe fits, where it.
You offer no real substantive solution or course of action except to encourage progressive to give up their right to vote.
Untrue, I encourage everyone to vote their conscious. For practical reasons, I agree with the strategy of voting for Obama for those who live in a swing states.
I understand better than you want me to!
Do you understand what a border is? Do you support unnecessary wars to defend borders? Do you support the democrat party against the republicans? Would you still support them if there were no republicans? Do you consider yourself a democrat party patriot who will vote for them no matter what?
Vote out pro Norquist, Anti Buffet rule politicians.
Vote for equality - stand up for what you believe in.
Please!
I don't support republican military policy. I don't follow dems blindly!
You don't criticize repubs by name! You never acknowledge the reality that conservative policies are at the root of our problems.
You never push the progressive policies we need to improve the lives of the 99%
Vote out conservative 1%tools, elect progressives!! Peace
Why not republicans? There is a simple answer to that. So simple, in fact, that I should not even have to point it out - but since your grasp of the obvious is not working today, I'll oblige you with the obvious -- Because my comment here was not directed at a republican, it was directed at a democrat.
When I run across a crazy ass republican, waving the GOP flag, I criticize just as sharply, if not more.
"your grasp of the obvious is not working"? insults = weak arguments.!
You mentioned repub policies in your comment but left out the republican party that created them so I don't buy your excuse.
You are consistently anti democrat! and consistently leave out criticism of republicans by name.
You offer no real substantive solution or course of action except to encourage progressive to give up their right to vote.
I understand better than you want me to!
Vote out pro Norquist, Anti Buffet rule politicians.
I did what I could to prevent the war and CU and many other things by working my ass off to elect Al Gore but people like you and Ralph Nader lead millions down the furry fairy tale land of third party bliss and we got Bush, so yeah I'm working my ass off again to try and see that stupid shit don't happen again, too bad you still got your head stuck in the sand, letting the 1% run the game.
In the end too many bought the lie and voted for Nader:
What lie did they buy? That they are free to vote however they choose. Would you rather them be slaves and be told what to do and how to vote? What kind of country do you want? Do you want a country where you have no choice?
Nader the traitor has crawled under a rock,
catchy, but completely metaphorical.
It’s the only place safe from the things that he wrot.
safe from what, you? are you going to hurt him? Are you violent or something?
As millennia approached us, we had one last shot,
a falsity, nothing has been finalized.
To keep the planet we’re on from getting, too damn hot.
Quite foolish to blame only one man for global warming. Do you believe Nader had a special device and put all the carbon dioxide in the air all by himself. Really?
But Nader thought better his name should be heard.
And you think he should be silenced, what kind of thug are you. Do you not believe in free speech? Do you think you are a dictator of some sort?
And Gore was left standing with only his word.
Why would anyone take his word? Anyway, he's also got Current TV.
Ten times ten thousand thought Gore couldn’t lose
Oops, ten times ten thousand blew that prediction. Hope they do better at the race track.
And a statement was needed to make the world choose
So now you believe in the freedom to choose again. Make up your mind.
Are we to be puppets and dance on a string?
Apparently you wish to only have two choices in life, democrat vs republican. Let us hope the genie in the bottle does not grant your wish.
Or will we be sprits and let our hearts sing?
what is a sprit? Is that what you get when you spit a sprite out your mouth...a sprit? I didn't get any on anybody, did I?
December reality came crashing in
Were you expecting Super Dave Osborne to come crashing in?
The court has decided that Bush got the win.
That's what courts do...decide things.
Nader the traitor has crawled under a rock,
It’s the only place safe from the things that he wrot.
As millennia approached us, we had one last shot,
To keep the planet we’re on from getting, too damn hot.
But Nader thought better his name should be heard.
And Gore was left standing with only his word.
Ten times ten thousand thought Gore couldn’t lose
And a statement was needed to make the world choose
Are we to be puppets and dance on a string?
Or will we be spirits and let our hearts sing?
December reality came crashing in
The court has decided that Bush got the win.
Where was the outrage where were the cries?
Believers were muted they had bought all the lies
How could they scream, how could they roar?
When even their ballots weren’t marked for Al Gore?
The Court destroyed democracy that day
So it would be safe for the Royals to play.
Cutting taxes is sweet
And we love all the meat
But Bush had a fear
What if folks start to hear?
Then an appointment or two
And I give you C-U.
For those that missed the end.
keep letting Republicans win and soon you will have no choice for real
I guess your cool with CU, thought so.
In the end, did your choices work out as you hoped. In the end, did you prevent war by supporting the democrat party's candidate.
The short answer is no, your vote did not prevent war. So you have no room to speak of a higher moral ground.
Perhaps you should question what is wrong with your democrat party that lead millions of people to actually prefer Nader over Gore and address that issue.
and btw, I voted for Gore.
I suppose I could do as you suggest, but that will just help elect Republicans, at least if i do it publicly so I don't know, I like to bitch but I would hate to think I was reasponible for someone thinking it was OK to let the GOP win one because it doesn't really make a difference when clearly it does, I would be lieing to say otherwise
In the end too many bought the lie and voted for Nader:
Nader the traitor has crawled under a rock,
It’s the only place safe from the things that he wrot.
As millennia approached us, we had one last shot,
To keep the planet we’re on from getting, too damn hot.
But Nader thought better his name should be heard.
And Gore was left standing with only his word.
Ten times ten thousand thought Gore couldn’t lose
And a statement was needed to make the world choose
Are we to be puppets and dance on a string?
Or will we be spirits and let our hearts sing?
December reality came crashing in
The court has decided that Bush got the win.
lol Again....... my, my what a simple world you live in frf.
The simplest and most elegant solutions are always the best, thank you; it has taken me many years of study to understand the beauty of simplicity.
To your comment below. So now anyone who disagrees with you that we should not get involved in the "repugnant" (good word frf) electoral process in not only a "hypocrite," but also is "a true supporter of the 1%". lol My, my what a simple world your mind lives in. This is getting better with each one of your comments. Keep 'em coming.
Those who disagree with me
and vote for Rmoney
are supporters of the 1%
any who help Romney
by whatever means is a supporter of the 1%
even if that "support" is just inaction
it really has nothing to do with "disagreeing with me"
but yes it does work out that way those that support Romney'e election, as you do, do not support OWS
"Hypocrites pretend to care about what happens, but in the end say well at least my vote was pure." So anyone who does not agree with you that this forum should be a place to focus on promoting democrats is a "hypocrite." That's interesting. I'll take solace in knowing that there are like-minded people to me who understand what this struggle is about. And I will not use a twisted definition of 'hypocrisy' to fit what you are doing
How you jump from the specific action of electing Republicans to the general "disagree with me" is a classic 1% poly if you do not want to be indentified as a true supporter of the 1% you should not reach for their tools so quickly.
Now to get to what I actually said, yes those that help elect Republicans are repugnant to our cause.
Holy Shit! Amen dude, Amen....
I'm not the least educated. your just offensive cause you know I'm right.
And your attempts at silencing by trying to bully me into getting off this site are as weak as your positions.
You're way of thinking is totally against everything this is about.
Stop trolling me you filthy little troll.
Thanks, I am pretty sure these guys won't be lining up to thank me, but I really have good intentions towards these guys - to help them understand.
understand this, people voted for Nader and we got Bush
Yes Holy Shit! Great comment.
There is a hypocrite inside everyone of us - the hardest hypocrite to spot is the one in yourself.
My intentions are also good. I care deeply about the success of this struggle, and the world that my granddaughter will grow up in. It does bother me though when these guys don't seem to care, and just go on, and on trying to turn this into a political movement. And yes, we are all hypocrites in one way, or another.
Hypocrites pretend to care about what happens, but in the end say well at least my vote was pure.
You don't think Obama is just another CIA/Bush Plant?
You're insults are just proof I am correct and you are wrong. I support OWS. You support the 1% conservative plutocrats.
You don't fool me.
Peace
sooooooooooooooooo dumb.....
Oh my god, will you stop trolling me.
I'm only responding with civil comments. Your the one who can't discuss substantive things in a civil way.
Take a break.
Peace
Understand this, people voted for Perot and we got Clinton.
People in Fl also voted Green, Socialist Workers Party, Socialist Party, Independent Party, etc.....
If only ALL people would fall into the two corporate behemoths, then they could have TOTAL control of us......We can only dream I suppose
Nader was Green, you really don't follow things much do you?
So are you saying the Bush Sr. supporters that went for Perot, remember he was a republican, by helping elect Clinton they did a bad thing, I don't think so, so yes you have discovered my screct I want Republicans to lose elections.
You should read the book by Nader's campaign manager to see how bad the Dems and Reps screw anyone else who attempts to represent people.
Its disgusting. Those two parties are about one thing: power.
The system is flawed because Big $ controls it! We the People have ceded it to them by encouraged abandonment, neglect and ignorance!!!
No, We the People "aren't aware." Learning that "nothing works" and Voting "makes no difference" is the brainwash swill Big $ wants us to believe! Is this your naivete or deception? Either way it's DEAD WRONG!!
Orwell's "Newspeak" and "Doublethink" are in full operation.
This jerk is definitely a Big Part of the Problem!!
Get out the Vote, people!! If it didn't matter these bastards wouldn't be trying soooo fucking hard to suppress it!! And they will stop at nothing!!!
Yes get out the vote, and add another year onto the thirty plus years of our futitlity in thinking that voting can bring about the systemic changes we need.
Worry about that after we regularly equal and surpass the Voter turnout Big Biz puts out now!
The 30+ yrs you keep blabbing about is the Shock Doctrine years the King-Cons have been conducting on us in the Class War!!!
Then we rejoice at having elected dems, and then find out nothing has changed, and in fact it is getting worse.. Yes i remember the drill.
It has never happened idiot!
Ignorance is no excuse for sabotage!!
Get out the Vote! Don't be Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Yes, I agree with you asshole, "Ignorance is no excuse for sabotage."
Then reveal the inner TROLL that you are and be honest for once!
lol If anything, I'm too honest. I follow my conscience whether that means people like you getting pissed at me or not. I put the welfare of this movement above partisan politics.
A big part of how we got here was getting out the vote for Nader, that got into two wars and the CU decision, but then I guess things like that don’t matter, how much worse could Romney be really?
And everything is rosy after three years of this administration with continued war, the EXPANDED trashing of our civil liberties, and the platinum citizenships that enable the political, and finanacial elite to continue screwing us.
I could very easily be on this forum without mentioning the dems, repubs, Obama, or Romney if everyone else could do the same. I know though that you could not as that would mean abandoning the reason why you are here, to promote partisan politics. I don't believe that this struggle is as important to you as having dems elected, and for you to imply that this can be fixed with your prescription of us focusing on that being the solution is naieve, or self-serving, and it is detrimental to the struggle. But fortunately as i have said, most people who are making the real sacrifices in time and energy know better.
& Definitive Comment 'B' ...
Onwards & Upwards ..
fiat lux .
Thanks again. My down-home logic is working, I guess.
your logic is we should "stay out of it" and just let the 1% pick who they want since they all take their calls anyway, I don't agree I think we should throw the bastards out starting with the GOP because if we can't show America what tools for 1% they are, well we can't do much, can we?
You are simply here to turn this into a democratic forum, and by doing so you hurt our chances of reaching out to the moderate right, and hence our opportuntiy to be the victors. Again...having dems elected is your #1 priority even if that is harmful to our struggle, and it is on here. This is not about dems vs. repubs. They both smell. This is about right vs. wrong.
Republicans are harmful to our goals and you would allow them to win for your purity to be intact, you critize Obama for reaching accross the to the same people you say you want to reach out to, should we give up on asking the 1% to pay their fair share in order to welcome Republicans? I have often said I welcome all Republicans willing to raise taxes, it seems to me you are fine with OWS being a large movement as long as it does not attempt to do anything like raise taxes, which might hurt the 1%, your chief concern seems to be that the spokespeople of the 1% will lose infulence if there are fewer elected Republicans.
"Republicans, [and democrats] are harmful to our goals." The only 'reaching out' that most politicians, including Obama does is with their hands for more corporate/banking dollars. As far as the rest of your comment goes......huh?? Where the hell did that come from frf?
1 points by Odin (3260) from Island Heights, NJ 3 days ago Getting repubs elected is not my objective, the health of this movement is my concern. Both parties stink, and the reason why we are here. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
As VQ points out you seem to think the purpose of the movement is to exist, you have even suggested that I lay off the wealth inequality stuff. I think you stay away from issues because you know which side most people fall and it turns out to be very partisan. It is hard to imagine someone could write as well as you do and yet not be able to think at all, that is why I feel you are being dishonest in your posts. You seek to silence all who urge OWS to take effective action to turn the tide of corporate domination. Is it that you know so many “good” republicans that you simply cannot accept that they could be at the root of the entire, money shall rule the world coalition? So here you post attacking any who would urge that we turn out the Republicans in November, because you have decided it’s bad for the movement, you seek to silence those that disagree by saying it breaks the rules, not by presenting stronger augments, it reminds me a lot of how the 1% get their way too.
You got his number!. Some time ago he spent much energy suggesting we shouldn't protest either. He comes off as a nice old guy But he doesn't support common sense tactics, voting, or discussing specific issues as you point out.
I recall my 1st exchange I decide he Should be called Loki God of mischief. I think it fits better.
But the High grand inquisitor works as well since he does seek to banish the impure amongst the movement.
;)
elections have not worked out for some time
WOW frf 4 pts! Gee, i wonder how that happened??
You are stuck in that 'repub versus dem' paradigm either because that is the only playground you know and feel comfortable on, or .........?? The main difference between the two parties is, one is more overt in its intentions which appeals to the more ignorant, or people who have a vested interest in the corrupt status quo....and the other party although slightly better is more insidious as to its real intentions. In the end both parties answer to the big monied interests, not to the concerns of the 99%. This proven 'go nowhere ballfield,' where it would be impossible to achieve major reform is the field that they want us to play on, and you are trying your damndest to accommodate them here on this forum. Your efforts may be valuable somewhere else, but not here trying to co-opt this defiant movement into the dem party.
1 points by factsrfun (5559) from Phoenix, AZ 4 days ago everything you post helps to elect republicans ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply edit delete permalink
[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4058) 4 days ago Everything you post is partisan and supports a grid-locked political system. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
[-] -1 points by Odin (3216) from Island Heights, NJ 3 days ago And everything you write gives people the false belief that electing democrats will bring us to where we want to go. It would be so nice if we could all sit around, and tap away on our LTs and think we are making a major contribution towards this revolution by promoting partisan politics. I and many others here know differently. You don't ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
at least neither of you deign the truth that what you post here helps to elect republicans
You see Odin says "the health of the movement" is his concern. He has stated this to me before. And his posts of course add evidence to this.
He doesn't state that economic equity, or living wage, or healthcare for all, or debt forgiveness, foreclosure relief, is important. He is only concerned about the movement, and further seems to take it upon himself to assure it's purity. Otherwise he only seeks to silence any talk of voting for existing candidates.
I do see much of his efforts as serving the 1% and republicans specifically. He knows that OWS supporters are progressive dem leaning voters.
He should be considered suspicious but not shunned or banned. We should welcome all opinions, and non violent tactics.
No attempts at silencing him. After all we aren't fascists.
Peace, Sorry to interject, he's been tryin to silence me again lately.
Getting repubs elected is not my objective, the health of this movement is my concern. Both parties stink, and the reason why we are here.
everything you post helps to elect republicans
Everything you post is partisan and supports a grid-locked political system.
And everything you write gives people the false belief that electing democrats will bring us to where we want to go. It would be so nice if we could all sit around, and tap away on our LTs and think we are making a major contribution towards this revolution by promoting partisan politics. I and many others here know differently. You don't
speaking of Jack London
the biggest difference between me and you is I have quite a bit to talk about, you're mostly just afaird we will do something
http://occupywallst.org/forum/search/?q=user%3Afactsrfun
why do you spend so much time attacking others and so little presenting your own views? why so long since posting?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/search/?q=user%3Aodin
Keep on posting factsrfun. You have every right. and You are always discussing important issues. Odin (and others) are preoccupied with trying to shut anyone down that doesn't agree with them. (almost fascist)
They rarely discuss issues and mostly attempt to discourage people from taking action. Very negative
Peace, & Soliarity!
Keep promoting partisan politics on here, and i will be there to challenge you. If your memory is working well, you know well what my positions are with all the exchanges we have had over the months. I do not have to justify to you 'of all people' how i spend my time, but you can rest assured that it has and will continue to go far beyond tapping away on my laptop promoting a party which has sold itself out, AND that is the "biggest difference between me and you."
So not a post in like two months but plenty of time to control the OWS message by attacking others who do suggest ways to create change, well I would wish you luck, but I hope your attempt to co-op fails.
Considering your shameless advocating of dems on here, I don't believe i have to explain to you what i do with my time. And if you had taken part in as many demonstrations, and supporting OWS (25-30 trips to NYC) in a multitude of ways as i have, you might not have had the chance to have as many posts either. Still though my contributions pale to other people here who are making the true sacrifices. Me..."co-op[t]"....I don't think so. You...out of touch...i know so. lol
it is clear you spend your time here attacking those who attck the GOP, but what I am asking if you have so much time for the forum, why do you not express yourself, in your own posts? As you clearly have plenty of time to spend on the forum.
No I do not "spend [my] time attacking those who attack the GOP." Rather I challenge anyone who thinks that this should be turned into a political forum advocating for either of the two parties that have worked so well together screwing the 99%.
Although i owe you no expalanation on how much time i have to spend on this forum, I will. I have been visiting family in Alaska for the past month, and a half or so, hence I do not have the time to devote to this forum that I usually do. Family first....you would agree wouldn't you frf? So while here in AK....near Sarah Palin's home, no less.....i decided not to put up any posts as they are too time consuming. I have engaged in several good debates promoting OWS, in this very conservative republican area. Even when I get back home though, i will never be able to catch up to your lofty point total, as i spend too much time doing other 'stuff.' I'm an our-doorsy kind of guy who enjoys the summer in particuliar, and I like doing things that are more important to this movement, than detrimental to it... like...say...advocating partisan politics.
Gotta go, 6:00 am comes early.
“I have been visiting family in Alaska for the past month, and a half or so, hence I do not have the time to devote to this forum that I usually do.”
This refers to “your time on this earth” Or do you not even read what you write?
No it does not refer to my time on earth. I suggest you take a course in reading comprehension
It is hard to see if you are just disingenuous or slow at this point, when I clearly said "time here" I meant the time you are here on the forum not “on the earth”, I am just saying that whatever time you do spend here is all about attacking people who attack Republicans, you also seem to equate attacking Republicans with promoting Democrats though I doubt you will find many if any post that I have made that "promotes" Ds. But you do make the valid point that to defeat Republicans as I constantly say we should, we have no choice but to vote for the D in almost all cases. What I do is constantly remind people of how stupid it is to act in any way that runs any chance of helping a Republican take public office, because thirty years of watching things has taught me that while nobody is perfect certainly not the Democrats, the Republicans have become about as close to perfectly evil as is possible.
First, I never thought you meant my "time on earth," so I am neither "disengenuous or slow at this point." To say that from what I wrote in my last comment may indicate another problem which is your's, not mine. Nice try though. Once again your belief that the systemic change we need can occur at the voting booth is crazy. I simply will not let you do that unchallenged as that would be the death knell of this movement. I suggest you start expending some shoe leather, and get in touch with what 'this' is about, or 'do your thing' in the dem party.
We HAVE been screwed by the Dems who have betrayed their progressive principles when they have voted for right wing policies. But in fact we must recognize that progressive policies are the solution to our problems and Dems must be co opted and made to serve the 99%.
The difference has to be the growing progressive movement (OWS?) to put organized and constant pressure on all pols especially those who give progressive policies lip service. If you give up you are playing into the plans of the 1%.
Ya, spending our way out of debt is a great idea. That's like giving an alcoholic cheap booze and expecting them to drink themselves sober.
How much money do you make? Lets say, 50k a year. If you spend 75k a year, how do you expect to get out of debt? Hope that that lottery ticket you bought with your payday loan money is going to pan out? That's pretty much what we do as a country.
Please. I never hear you repubs complaining when we drop a trillion on military budget. another trillion on illegal oil wars. Another trillion on wealthy tax cuts. Never a peep. Then we can spend
But $10 billion for pell grants, $100 billion for health care,. $20 billion for infrastructure, $20 billion for 1st responder jobs, $3 billion for foodstamps, $5 billion for unemployment and all of a sudden you find God and we can't afford it. That is bullsh@t!
There is plenty of money. The wealthy are hording it. they are sittin on several trillion bucks.!! Tax those greedy motherf$#kers up the a#@. and take our money back. Cut the military in half already. we will still be more powerful than all our adversaries combined.
Peace out
I'm not a republican, marxist.
I disagree!
Peace
Groucho, Harpo, Zeppo , Shep?
[Removed]
how about carl?
You're a Carl?
I think he's thinking of Chico Marx. The one that played piano.
LOL - whatever else - I think he is sadly confused.
Must be the heat, there's a lot of that going around......:)
LOL - I know it must be hot in Utah - I know it is here in Minnesota - over 100 degrees every day for the last week - in the north central United States.
Think he suffered heat stroke fried brain cells?
Keep hydrated people - lets be careful out there.
We never did find out just what he is.........fried.....:)
Maybe he's been drinking the water - SLC - ick. {:-])
I disagree. We have to stay as far away from that putrid political system as possible for now and the forseeable future.
we should wait our turn like good little peasants
No you do not have to wait your turn "like good little peasants." You should take part in direct actions, or directly support those people that do if you are unable to be in the streets. Aside from that, you should think about being more active in the Democratic Party, but that too might require you to leave the comforts of your adobe. I do think you would be happier (we would be happy for you too!) though with the latter, rather than trying to co-opt this movement into oblivion.
Better the movement should just trail away into meaningless wanderings as you suggest?
BTW thank you for the feedback, much study?
The quickest way for this movement to "trail away into meaningless wanderings" is for it to become election central. You're welcome.
and what evidence do you offer?
you seem to care not at all about what actually happens, just that your hands are clean
My "evidence" is thirty plus years of a deterioration of life for the 99% through republican, and democratic administrations. The democrats abandoned the people quite some time ago. I don't think my hands are "clean," by my conscience is.
right on brother!
so we have never tried taking down one of the major parties in thrity years? I'd say that's about right, and you would like to see that trend continue so the power of the 1% is not threatened, I understand.
No I think your lack of "understand[ing]" is the problem frf. Your simplistic idea that we can crush one party to achieve our goals is well.... 'simplistic.' Our aim is to bring the whole political spectrum to the left for perhaps the first time in my life-time, and that has started to happen already. This can only be done from the outside the polluted political system at this point. The idea that we can now call on the dems.....the very dems who sold us out, to take us to the 'promised land' is ludicrous.
You forgive the GOP anything and the Dems nothing, I suspect there is something you are not telling us.
You say on one hand we can bring down the whole system and on the other we cannot possibly remove the Republicans from office.
There may be other explanations for your comments but often the simplest answers are the correct ones and the simplest answer is you support Romney.
It is my deep understanding that you fear, if we all understood more no Republican would hold office, I think you know that.
I "forgive" the GOP, and the Dems for nothing as they are both unrepentant, and continue trading their votes for money. There may also be other reasons why YOU are here promoting dems, and as I have said before it has nothing to do with the success of this movement. The word is "shill.' Co-opting a movement that is as vibrant as OWS is so much easier than going door to door handing out dem flyers, isn't it frf?
I have never been in any way secretive about my hatred for Republicans, how I feel that every policy that hurts America is championed by the GOP. Being a sane person whose opinion is affected by reality, I know that to defeat Republicans you must support Democrats in most cases. I support anyone anywhere who can defeat a Republican, but to those that vote third party when it is clear they have no chance, and allow Republicans to take office, as you would do, I have no problem calling you a traitor to OWS as demonstrated by what you say, not your (most likely) imagined participation.
I think he is really a repub who wants to discourage progressive OWS'rs to give up their right to vote in order to help repubs.
He certainly cares more about the movement than helping the 99%. His main focus seems to be finding anyone who supports dems and trying to silence them, have them self ban themselves, and/or get them to not vote for a dem.
He is the grand high inquisitor Odin
I will not take your critique of me seriously because i know who it is coming from, a partisan person who is more interested in seeing dems elected than wanting to see the success of this struggle.
Stand in line no butting in.
If the progressives on this forum take your advice then the right wing will gain more power and influence. Is that what you want? Do you really think it does not matter if more conservatives are elected? And fewer progressives? Same thing?
This is a protest, pressure, and education movement. Both parties are f**cked up, and the overwhelming majority of people out in the streets, and me don't believe that getting involved in our rotten political system at this point is a positive thing. We have had over thirty years of liberal and conservative administrations, and with each one, it gets worse. These issues for the most part are only being debated here on this forum, not out 'there' with the people making the real sacrifices. We have already had this discussion, and we didn't agree then and I don't expect we will ever agree on this.
I don't know who you are speaking for. But the people I meet are progressives, and they recognize that the element that has been missing from our "rotten political system" is progressive people being involved. Protest, pressure on POLITICIANS is necessary in a working democracy. It can be the bottom up, horizontal element I hear about that has been missing. We have become demoralized, and apathetic in the last 30 years.
And that is the plan of the 1%. So I (and many other OWS supporters) don't want to give up our right to vote because we know that is what the 1% wants. We can protest and pressure (as you say) all pols to pass progressive policies. That is what has been missing, that can co opt the dems drag them back from the right, and make them serve the 99%.
Our movement only just began. It will take years to change this corrupt, system. It will take longer if we let the right wing gain more power and influence.
I wasn't speaking for anyone other than myself, but i did relay what the 'overwhelming majority of the people' feel. Yes they are mostly progressives who believe that the political system is so broken that it belittles us to get involved with it. Only once in my 25-30 trips to NYC since this all began have I heard anyone talk about trying to bring about the sea change that we need through this dead system. And that was from an old-timer, even older than me! I cannot see how you can come up to any other conclusion.
"what the 'overwhelming majority of the people' feel." You sound like Boehner when the polls are 70% against him.
How do you think you can be relevant? Whine and pout? That is all I hear. Good luck with that. The 1% is loving you and all your buddies.
No whining and pouting from me. lol... I believe you are out of touch with this if you are another one who is promoting politics over resistance, and education. Good Luck to you too.
What resistance?
Every kind of peaceful resistance you can think of with civil disobedience being on top of the list. 'They' have to feel our anger, and our non-compliance to the screwed-up status quo. This corrupt system will not be overturned at the voting booth any time soon anyway.
I agree with so much of what you've been saying here. However, I don't think voting is completely useless. I hate the two parties as much as, if not more, than you do. The proper way to protest their corruption is by voting third party. Third parties don't have to win. Without winning an election they brought us the end to slavery, obtained women's rights, child labor laws, reduced work hours, social security, and many more. The Green Party accepts no corporate dollars (the only one to my knowledge) and, I believe, mirrors much of Occupy's sentiments.
If we stand up and be counted in our disapproval of the Democratic Party via votes for Green Party candidate Jill Stein (or whoever else you prefer), it will speak a lot louder than lack of participation. Politics isn't the long term solution in my view, but it can provide us with a bridge to our destination, or at the minimum give us a voice in the political system. It is, after all, a remarkably easy thing to do, to cast a vote. We don't have to sacrifice our other projects, protests and activism to do so.
I agree with much of what you have to say too, and the Green party does seem to be the best. It is just that when this goes from a defiant protest movement to a political movement, we lose more than we would gain. The very idea that we are all here because of some recalcitrant kids camping out in a park is unbelievable. They have awoken us, and made us feel that there is a chance of over-turning this corrupt system. They have changed the political discourse entirely in this country. It is this type of defiance that has to be our main focus at least until we have a plurality of the people educated in to what has been going on for the past thirty or more years. The corrupt system we have now will not change unless they have no choice, and that will not happen at the voting booth, soon anyway.
I suppose I just don't see why we can't do both. Why not advocate Occupy while also protesting the system by simply casting third party votes? It doesn't supplant any Occupy activities or efforts. It takes virtually no effort or time at all.
I think we need a whole new system altogether, radically different from what we have. One that makes human need and environmental preservation the main priorities over corporate profit. Or perhaps a mode of operation absent profit altogether. One that relies on the methods of science to arrive at decisions, as opposed to depending on subjective philosophies of a diverse population of differing educational backgrounds.
Unfortunately, for the time being, we are stuck with this junk and it could be dangerous to focus only on protest when casting a vote is effortless with a long history of dramatic success. Voting is NOT the solution, it's a bridge. Creating a more favorable environment for such a transition.
Either way you are irrelevant. OWS has already done what it could do. Change the dialog and raise awareness.
Unfortunately we lost the image war. The OWS brand got tagged by the few who acted like fools.
The good news is that a new generation is politically aware. It may take a while before they "get it" but there is hope.
Why can't we have resistance, education and vote as well.? That would be doing what everyone is advocating. Our idea of voting does not exclude your idea of resistance and education why does your tactic have to exclude our right to vote.?
When you use this platform for promoting a political solution, it waters us down. This is a defiant movement which will for sure drive some political solutions as we raise the consciousness of people, but for us (OWS) to take this on directly will diminish us, as we will be playing on their field where they can control us.. The corrupt elite have a lot to lose when this becomes history. It is only with the threat of civil disorder that this system will fall.
So if people vote or encourage voting it hurts OWS?
When you give people the false belief that this is the solution, it does hurt, yes.
What solution do you suggest? Only in American do people take voting so much for granted, throughout the rest of the world they fight for their right, and worry more about being represented; in America we have come to take all this for granted and we diminish the need to vote.
The number one reason people get turned off to the voting process is they get sick and tired of the constant verbal harassment and badgering from people like you, yelling at them that they are throwing their vote away, calling them idiots, shaming them for helping the republicans, etc.
If you really and truly want people to vote, you have to encourage them that it matters what they think and that their thoughts do count.
The destruction of our beloved country is not only being caused by the republicans.
We have gone over this many times. You will always be a dem supporter, and I will always see your promotion of partisan politics on here as a problem for this movement. Luckily your views are not shared by the people out in the streets, or the people near the core of this movement.
The number one reason people don't vote is the negative ads ran by the 1% owned by the SuperPACs if you don't know that you don't know much, or you just come here to lie and confuss.
Yes I hate Republicans, I believe they are destoring this country, if that upsets you to hear it, too bad, I'm sure the banks would rather we not be in their lobbies too, but sometimes you got to be unpleasent to get the word out.
giving people the false belief that voting for a third party is a good thing is much worse, at least if they vote to beat a R then they've at least they gave it their best shot of doing something voting for a third party is truly false hope but you never point that out
The "false belief" is that we can vote our way out of this mess.
all is lost all is lost....is that better?
"all is lost all is lost." If that is the faux way that you want to paraphrase me, so that you feel justified promoting partisan politics here...then go for it! lol
The struggle is to improve the lives of the 99%. to end the plutocracy. To get money out of politics. To take the govt back from the corp 1%. Not to keep OWS an anarchist movement.
We must get progressive policies in place. We must keep right wing politicians from taking more power. We must get any pol in power to serve the 99% by passing progressive laws and repealing right wing 1% laws.
That is the struggle. How we achieve that is irrelevant. Whether the ideal monks of OWS are revered is unimportant. Sorry this ain't a religion.
Helping the people, taking our govt back! ending the plutocracy. That is my struggle. I thought yours too.
You are calling for more of the same. I understand where you are coming from but don't you see? We have had "progressive" groups working within the political system for decades and what do we have to show for it? Nothing.
Going down that same road is a mistake. OWS seeks to move beyond the confines of the current system. If you want to work within the current system use other groups to do that, but I agree with Odin that Occupy must remain outside and defiant, pushing the envelope as far as it possibly can.
BW replied to you better than I could have.
Nah! discouraging people from excercizing their right to vote is ridiculous. I think people would do better focusing on positive action.
Resistence. Growing the movement, education, helping people in need. supporting strikers (coned, sothebys verizon) supporting move to amend, supporting families being foreclosed on. job placement.
But to expend any energy getting people not to vote is wrong and hurtful to those individuals who haven't gotten apathetic.and then trying to say it is hurtful to the movement is dishonest.
Get to work. and stop trying to tell people what to do. Your not the boss of me. Apathy is the problem! don't encourage apathy! That is the work of the 1% plutocrats.
No I am not the boss, and neither are you. You are in a defiant movement, and you seem to want this to become a placid, impotent, political movement. I am not "discouraging people from excercizing their right to vote." but when you try to make this movement focus on partisan politics or finding the solution to the vast problems we face in the voting booth, yes I have a problem with that, and like you I will speak out against anyone who I feel is trying to inadvertantly, or who is purposely trying to derail this struggle.
What's your take for hawking for Obama, mate? http://pastebin.com/9bLFYdFZ
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Big $ shows up, We the People don't!
Of course it is a "Propaganda Ploy," you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-Minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
Why are you asking a question I've seen answered for you hundreds of times before on this forum, Obamapologist? You have been blacklisted as a pro-regime plant in this forum. Who do you think doesn't know who you are working for?
this question has never been answered for me.
Do you think voting hurts the OWS movement.?
Who are you.? And who has blacklisted me?
You are shit. I read this already. http://pastebin.com/9bLFYdFZ
Have you watched this yet? A pretty good documentary for Occupy.
http://occupywallst.org/article/american-autumn-occudoc/
I fell asleep last night watching it, not because it was boring, it was just it was already late when I started watching it. I definitely will see all of it when we return from Denali Park. I liked what I saw though. Thanks.
Just watched it. excellent.
I liked the fact that they also promoted the Move to Amend campaign.
Yes. I thought of your posts about them. I hope they continue growing. We need that amendment desperately.
Yes we do! I also sent off another open letter to government today - directed at the State Department.
Good man.
Here ya go - http://occupywallst.org/forum/an-open-letter-to-the-state-department-to-the-worl/
Check it out and let me know what you think. {:-])
Ok. Where is it.?
Ok. So you are for suggesting that we not exercise our right to vote.
What exactly are you suggesting we do?
I'm suggesting that you do anything you like, just don't bring that sewer here.
What sewer?. And why can't I bring it here.?
I don't have to subscribe to your offensive definition (sewer) of my tactic do I? You don't have any particular monopoly on what is allowed here do you.? Exclusion is probably not in the movements best interest. I mean if you resort to insults when someone doesn't agree with you doesn't that reflect a weakness in your arguments?
I just watched an Ocudoc where they showed a clip of a speaker saying we need to avoid attacking each other, (that is an easier fight to win) We are fighting against the largest enemy this planet has ever seen!. We need to treat each other as if we will be fighting together for many years to come.
So I ask in all earnestness. What do you suggest we do.? What will you do? And please refrain from insulting me. You can't bully me into thinking like you.
You can do what you like, and I will respond in opposition to your never-ending efforts to be in bed with this f**cked-up system . The "offensive definition" was directed at the system not at you, and you know it. What will I do? From our many past exchanges, you know damn well what i am doing, and it is a lot more than sitting behind my LT trying to have this movement focus on a bunch of crap. You came here months later and from the get-go you have been trying to get us to focus on a broken political system to bring about the systemic changes we need. It is a lot easier doing what you do than having to expend shoe leather, I realize that
I been at Zuccotti park from the begining. I've been to dozens of protests and probably hundreds since the 1970's.
You don''t agree with my tactics. Fine. I don't have to resort to vulgarity and insults. You do because I think your arguments are weak.
In any event no body has to agree with me. I know that OWS will embrace many non violent tactics.
I do not know what you are gonna do, If you don't wanna say. don't..
Just put down what I am gonna do which is Protest/pressure/agitate all pols to pass progressive policies to undo the right wing policies that have created this crises. And prevent more right wing wacko republicans from gaining more power.
That's hard to believe considering your stance of us focusing on the political process at this point.
I won't pretend that letting more right wing pols into office won't make things worse. While we resist and educate we must stay involved. Progressive lack of involvement and apathy is what got the right wing policies passed.
There was no apathy with Obama's election. He has shown us that it really doesn't matter much who you vote for, the corrupt statud quo continues on.
Maybe no apathy during the campaign but as always progressives went back to sleep after the election and just waited for the magic to happen.
Guess what? One election will not create the change we need. One man cannot undo the mess of 30 years. We've made progress, if people can get active and stay active, if they can recognize the slow progress that is occurring in the face of massive 1% plutocratic resistance. We might succeed.
Or we can blame the guy who has tried. Who has begun the slow process we need. We aren't children we know it will take time. Americans can be spoiled and expect things immediately. We must patient and work hard at getting more progressives elected.
If we were not to succeed....and I don't believe that will happen...it would be because this movement started focusing on a political solution far too early. We can only enter the political arena when we get enough people out in the streets, then we will give them our demands of having a government that answers to the people. You are right though in implying that we are in a monumental struggle, and our success will take time.
This whole thing began in earnest when I asked for the lefts equivalent of the 900+ anti-womens right bills penned by (R)eplicant's
There was no response. There are others who agree with me.
There is NO equative comparison of our two parties.
Some claim "Both sides do it" because they are too lazy or dishonest to point out the very big obvious differences. Pundits love to throw their hands up in the air and say that Republicans and Democrats are the same, and people who are frustrated with a broken political system believe it. They are not the same. They are very different. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either intellectually lazy, uninformed or lying to you.
So here are a few of the very big differences.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/03/1105574/-STOP-telling-me-Both-sides-do-it
So many are shills of the 1% and don't know it. They don't do it knowingly. it is so insidious it is like one of those sci fi movies where the aliens take over people's bodies.
It is so very easy to blame both sides and it makes you sound smart and really cool. But it is short sided. And it plays right into their evil genius plans. ;p
I never did get an answer to the question, I just got a knee jerk response.
It's a shame what is going on in the States and it's being ignored.
Thx for the link. Been hoping someone would do that with Congressional votes. I guess he was too lazy like me. Have not even posted the votes on the bill just passed.
They are different. One is excrement, the other is vomit.
The propaganda is that you have to pick one. The truth is you don't.
Fool! 1% shill!
Actually a 99%'er that was never brainwashed by either side.
Not never. Maybe even often. But I don't operate on faith. So if I find out I was deceived it does not destroy my "world view". ;p
^professional campaigner
I am too old for any of it to matter much to me. But I have grand babies. I want them to know that Grampa went down fighting for them.
Or endorsing the same system that has screwed em. Either or...
Replace the people not the system.
The dems have betrayed their progressive principles because the progressive constituents have become demoralized and apathetic. This is by design. The 1% want to minimize progressive activism. We must continue to vote against Repubs who proudly trumpet support for 1% right wing policies. And we must vote in progressive supporting candidates and continue protesting and pressuring all pols to pass progressive policies.
Be careful of fasicst policies that are disguised as progressive.
The conservatives and dems alike have fallen asleep, and in their slumber the gov and corps have partnered up into this multinational beast.
OK Glenn Beck!!
Which progressive policy is disguised as fascist? What are you talkin about.?
<chirp> <chirp>
LOL. Hc is a partisan right winger in disguise I think.
Ok, shithead, seems how you are still stuck on me being a right winger because I dont agree with 100% of what you say, I will start giving you links so you can see how these banks are profiting off of enslavement. Here is one to start. JP Morgan making 5 Billion PROFIT off of Americans on foodstamps. Thats right. http://www.rooseveltinstitute.org/new-roosevelt/food-stamps-jpmorgan-banking-industry-profit-misery
I don't believe you. You seem like a right wing partisan to me!
Sorry. But don't worry I'm a nobody. My opinion doesn't matter.
How does your link show you ain't right wing? I think you missed the target. But you don't have to try again.
How about the may 18th Smith-Amish House amendment to repeal NDAA? You got anything to say about that? Do you even know about it? Maybe you don't care about the repub effort to codify indef detention over the last few years.
Thank God Pres Obama took the authority and revoked it with executive signing. Then the Pres put up weak fight in court and has refused to challenge the judges finding that ndaa is unconstitutional. Republicans defeated! YAY!
He signed it, and it passed the senate 93-7. We are in the middle of a take over.
You better pull your head outta your ass and start seeing this. Im for having people in office that would have never even thought of signing this.
And you should realize that the right wingers would point out that JP doing this is more "efficient" than gov, and therefore a good thing. Looks like it went over your head again. Go back to sleep.
No need for the vulgarity and schoolyard insults.
JP"?
Wasn't the senate vote 86-12?
The 1st NDAA indef detention law was introduced last year by NY Representative Peter King?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0PdDGqK0S4
Its a sick world we are living in.
Listen I am against NDAA. Profoundly disappointed that the Pres signed it. I simple disagree in the way some blame only him.
The root of NDAA is in the environment created 10 years ago when the 9/11 attacks were exploited to create a state of constant war and fear.
When people pretend it is only Pres Obama. I have to challenge that fallacy. Sorry.
For the one millionth time, I dont blame him, I blame everyone. But there was something special about him signing it no problems, no press releases, no media hoopla about him cant believing that they would do this, nothing.
He signed it via the silent signature. On new years eve. While all the sheep were going nuts with top 10 lists.
I am not mindless. I am very thoughtful. I am very considerate, and tolerant. You are the one who exhibits mindlessness by your constant hostile offensive attacks agsinst people of different opinions.
Not very tolerant. And therefore not very progressive. Do you understand that? You behave like an intolerant conservative. It really isn't something that can be hidden.
Peace! republican!
Comment or shut up. Lets hear it, you pro war pawn
http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
"get rid of both parties" yeah sure. no problem I agree. How? make a suggestion? how about other issues? what policy should we implement.? Which should we repeal?.
You have nothing of substance. You only attack the President. You are the republican plant. You ain't kiddin anyone.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
Put up or shut up.
Or record and report.
"shut up"? your attempts to silence me are laughable.
No links from hostile, intolerant, unstable republicans.
You got nothin but schoolyard bullying tactics. LMFAO
Republican!
Blah blah blah, you have nothing of value at all, because you dont think. Screw the Republicans. Screw the Dems. And screw the mindless supporters like you.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
I only defend him when republican plants attack him inaccurately and give repubs a pass.
Thats your M.O. You ain't kiddin anyone.
You are a plant, a pro establishment hack. I will repeat ,fo the millionth and ONE time...
GET RID OF BOTH PARTIES.
Dman you are dumb.
There you go again. Always going after the President as if the problem begins and ends with him.
When you do that I know you are a partisan republican and I lose all respect for you.
Im not going after him as much as you are defending someone who is not doing what you voted him to do, at all.
Get lost qwag, whoever you are, and again, I repeat, please speak your pro Obama crap at a GA. Or your pro Romney crap. You pro war sell out.
Do you think it is significant that the NDAA indef detention legislation didn't appear until the Repubs took the House?
You never mention that.
Thank God this Great Pres has ended the republican NDAA indef detention threat by revoking it's use with his executive signing statement. and his decision not to challenge the judges finding that it is unconstitutional.
Whew! dodged a bullet there.
Now we have to work on the republican patriot act, warrentless wiretaps, and the humongous military budget..
(D) Carl Levin on NDAA 'Obama Admin insisted on the contents'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNDHbT44cY
The parties are vastly different as evidenced by the facts I've sent you. Levins comment does not change any of these realities.
You do indeed give repubs a pass!! You've never specified any of these facts. For you this problem begins and ends with Pres Obama. That is simplistic and dishonest.
If you pretend that republicans aren't at the center of this specific constitutional threat, as well as the fear mongering atmosphere they created after 9/11 not only are you giving them a pass you are excusing the real people responsible for our mess.
It makes you look like a partisan republican.
Levins commments dont change reality...Hysterical. Those comments show reality.
Keep denying it dude. You just make the movement to end this level of corruption even stronger.
I've seen it. What about the rest of the facts I listed.? You ignore the facts and put forward one Senators comments.
I'm not impressed.
Doesn't change the fact Pres Obama rescinded it with an executive signing.!
Doesn't change the fact that he hasn't used the law!
It doesn't change the fact that NDAA has been struck down! And this Pres is not challenging that ruling. That is telling. That proves he ain't interested in this republican threat to our constitutional rights.
Do you also disagree with the repubs (peter King) who created it?. (didn't happen when dems had the house!). You ain't comlained about that!
Do you also disagree with the House repubs who defeated the dem attempt to repeal on May18 2012.? No complaints.?
How about the fear mongering atmosphere your repubs created by exploiting 9/11. That is at the root of how these constitutional threats occur. No complaints?
Why do you give the Repubs a break on this important threat.?
That one senator is the 'chairman' of the Armed Services Committee. Are you accusing Levin of lying about this on the senate floor?
Senator Levin told Congress that under the original wording of the National Defense Authorization Act, American citizens were excluded from the provision that allowed for detention. Once Obama’s officials saw the text though, says Levin, “the administration asked us to remove the language which says that US citizens and lawful residents would not be subject to this section.”
You can spin it anyway you like; Obama did ask for it, he signed it, he sent a team of lawyers to court to defend it, and only when the WH lawyers would not exclude journalists from NDAA, did the federal judge strike it down.
I am not giving the R's a pass, but this type of thing is expected from slime. You know where they're coming from. I didn't expect it from the D's. That's what broadsided me. Kinda' supports the idea that BOTH PARTIES ARE THE SAME.
Obama is challenging the NDAA ruling. He immediately filed a motion to reconsider, which included a statement that the administration interpreted the preliminary injunction to apply only to the named plaintiffs. The judge responded with a denial of the motion and an emphatic statement that the injunction applies to everyone.
The pres has 60 days to file an appeal and the 60 days have not yet passed.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/08/ndaa-indefinite-detention-injunction_n_1581575.html
There was no signing of anything to remove it, and if so, please give me a credible link. And a lower court ruling will not mean anything when push comes to shove.
I dont think its signifacant which one of these mostrosities has the power of the house, when 93-7 vote in the senate controlled by the Dems. This was a great chance for Democrats to make a stand, and show whats up. They didnt. They dont care. They are in the club, you arent. If this piece of legislation doesnt prove that to you, then probably nothing will.
"Apathy"? WTF r u talkin about? you've gone senseless. Maybe you should go to sleep.
You want me to go to someones funeral?
I am against war. especially you boy Bush's illegal iraqi oil war. Good thing this president finally ended that.
I am against our drone attacks, I won't pretend it's better to send 1/2 a million troops to slaughter a million iraqis like your boy Bush.
the Drone attacks represent an improvement from the republican use of our military. But repubs can hold hearings in the House to end them. You won't complain about that failure though right? Not against your prescious republicans.
Lets hear one freakin suggestion, you clown: http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
Damn, that was one beautifully stated emotional appeal you wrote down below. it seems to me that because of your total lack of trust in either party, you feel morally superior voting in defiance of a morally and financially bankrupt society, that the only hope for us all is to break the binary nature of our government.
The part I don't understand is, what is a third party to do once it gets to Congress? You don't believe that voter disapproval is so great that every American will usher one party into the majority, do you? The third party would most likely be incorporated into one of the two parties, hence playing the same game of musical chairs.
Even playing devil's advocate with your idea, i can't bring myself to even contemplate getting a Presidential nominee, from a third party, elected, but hey, stranger things have happened. Sure, it's possible to get a few Senators and quite a few house members this election cycle, but advocating for a third party President just seems reckless.
For the most part, i believe, the Presidency is mostly a ceremonious role. Sure he has the ability to veto bills that don't have a super Majority, but because of the Cloture regime, there are very few bills that don't have a super majority when they make it to the desk. The president is more of a cop than a leader, and if the local assembly is telling the cop to be tough on dissent, well, what is a guy--who is just doing his job--supposed to do?
I commend you on advocating for a third party route for state and local governments. I see your advocating on a national level as being bold and maybe a little too ambitious.
But your fixation on the President, as if he is the the great leader and decider of American law and policies, is misplaced and shows another flaw in the electorate, their inability to see where power really resides.
Im an advocate for activism. Until the people take some responsibility in this mess, and decide that maybe after 100 years its time to get some other things going, we can expect more ot the same.
Old parties bring lots of back door deals, old promisies and deals, and a shady culture. Just like old companies. ITs up to us to change things up. We used to do it more often. This is just disgraceful now.
I dont place a lot of value in the POTUS, but the fact that people are iwlling to endorse this disaster or the Romney is so distasteful, so incredibly arrogant, I cannot help but make the comparision that endorsing either means the country is not ready for real change.
Links? I don't need no stinkin' links!
You are losing it again buddy. Get a grip. I think you are the problem. Not me. I am fair minded you are clearly pro republican so that makes you the proud trumpeter of the 1% plutocrats. The dems still give progressive principles lip service at least. Somtimes they even push something through. (healthcare, fin reform,)
The dems can be dragged back from the right and made to serve the 99%. Worth a try isn't it?. I haven't heard you come up with any ideas between your constant anti Obama tirades. LMFAO.
You don't have any solutions. Because you aren't serious about creating change. right?
Your an idiot, and your lack of proof is telling of your agenda.
Go speak at GA. Record. Report.
Comment on this, you superficial sell out: http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
My statements are true. You attack the pres and give your repubs a pass.
So that betrays your republican partisanship.
The fact that you lose your cool and curse me out just proves I've hit a nerve. You prove me right when you lose it. When you tell me to and try to silence me you prove I'm correct.
You don't get that simple fact?
The only nerve you have hit is that we have still have to deal with idiots that back the D or R parties. The whole system is shit. It has a 9% rating of approval.
Where is the link? Give me the link. No decent human being signs something like this. You have to be one sick son of a bitch (d and R) to create this (or just R, I could care less which one of these criminals created it- THEY BOTH SIGNED IT), and even sicker to let it pass on NYE.
I have so much I could say to people like you, the ones that are rolling over and screwing our kids, but I wont. I wont go there. You thnk Im rude now?
Its nothing compared to what is going to happen to this society from your generation voting these two corporate parties in for decades regardless of what they do.
That is something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. Bless your soul and say your prayers.
You got nothin. only attacks on the Pres. intolerance, and telling progressives not to vote.
YOU are the plant.
Republican!
Suggestions.? You haven't responded to my requests for suggestions.
Is that because you have none? You are only here to get progressives not to vote? You only want to attack the Pres?
But suggestions ok Here goes. But you gotta weigh in on each ok pal?
Vote out anti Buffet rule, pro Norquist politicians. You support that?
Vote out anti greentech, pro fossil fuel subsidy politicians. What do you think?
Vote out anti public option politicians! Anything?
Vote out anti gay politicians. Agreed?
Vote out pro citizens united politicians. Nothin?
Mine are on that post, you idiot.
Yours are all the typical, vague crap from MSNBC and FOX.
Im starting to think that you are a republican plant, due to your lack of effort.
Your repeating yourself republican boy!
I think you have been worn out! Vexed by VQkag! Ha!
Dispatched, and dismissed. Your name calling bullying is childish and ineffective. Your attempts to silence me are laughable.
You got nothing but attacks on the President, on me, and I guess anyone that disagrees with you.
LMFAO.
Republican!
Have fun voting for more war you sell out.
I hope you get sentenced to go overseas to a funeral of some innocent kid that gets killed due to your apathy.
You disgust real liberals, real people, and most human beings.
I'm not an idiot. You can't bully me. You can't silence me. These tactics are not those of OWS.
They are the schoolyard bullying tactics of your candidate Romney.
Republican!
wow, you are now reaching a whole other level of stupidity, this is getting funny....
http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
Of go to your GA and record and report.
Repubs created the law!!! Your denial of that reflects your partisanship!!
The Dems railed against it. Tried to repeal it and repubs defeated the repeal! Your refusal to recognize that fact shows your partisanship!
Repubs buried it in the defense budget to make it most difficult to vote against.
Our Dem Pres immediately rescinded it's use with a signing statement. (More than a repub pres would do) Pres Obama also put up weak defense and no witnesses in the case against NDAA, and has refused to challenge the judges ruling that it is unconstitutional.
You attack only Dems. Never Repubs. (partisan!)
Your refusal to acknowledge these critical facts shows your partisanship.
I fkin hate them all, you dumb fck.
Provide a link or shut the f*ck up once and for all...
Holy shit, you have to be the most annoying troll I have ever encountered. From thread to thread, you chase us with your pro establishment crap. Go away. Or better yet, for the one millionth time..,
GO TO YOUR GA WITH UR PRO OBAMA CRAP.
And like I said before, record the reaction for us.
Man I get sick of you freaks.
ok
we march tomorrow though
right?
I hope he is getting paid to do this.
I hope NOT! Ha!
I almost got paid before, it was to be a campaign manager at the Tampa office for Obama in Tampa. But I was taking a couple of credits still at University of Tampa, so they said I wouldnt be able to handle both of em (they were wrong).
Thats about as close as I've ever been to getting paid for politics.
You?
Never paid. Did some volunteering for local candidates. Supported many progressive campaigns. Green, WF Party, Dems. But been registered independent a long time.
Both parties are essentially bankrolled by the same corporations. In a way, it IS a 1% ploy, because they can coerce the two parties into voting for pro-corporation legislation by controlling their election funding. Democrats are not the same, no. They are far better than the Republicans, but they are far worse than what they should be.
Democrats also voted for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. They also voted for the PATRIOT Act. They also continually vote to increase the bloated military budget each year. They also voted to bail out the banks.
The two parties aren't really polarized on the significant issues right now. The Democrats do pay a lot of lip service, though.
Have you donated to Bernie sanders campaign? He is the one that gets no money from the corporations. Do we let them slam him with negative ads?
Bernie wins in his state because the people have brains enough to see through the attack ads.
Too bad the same wasnt true in the other 49.
And Bernie supports Dem policies, but never repub. That should be measure enough!
He is also highly critical of the democraps.
Sure. Me too. But Bernie votes for progressive dem policies. But never repub right wing policies. That should be measure enough! No?
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Big $ shows up, We the People don't!
Of course it is a "Propaganda Ploy," you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-Minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
You do know they were lied to don't you? Did you think Colin Powell was lying? I believed him.
They had the information. I knew Colin Powell was lying. I protested the war when I was a teenager and this was all happening. Heck, I was against the war in Afghanistan back when I was in 8th grade.
If I, as a teenager, knew Bush and his cronies were lying, then the adult Democrats surely knew.
Actually Colin Powell was lied to. He had his doubts but followed orders like a good soldier. He felt like he was surrounded by eight graders.
"Can we do Iraq now? Can we? Can we?" NO!, You have to have a reason. Don't worry, we will find something.
I wouldn't cut Colin Powell that much slack. I wouldn't really cut any of these guys slack. We elected them, and it was their responsibility to act responsible in the face of a national crisis. Not enough of them did.
But even the war in Afghanistan was the wrong way to go. No one really talks about that. Colin Powell was fine with going into Iraq, and so were the Democrats. But no one talks about what warmongers they are.
Just a little history. Not opinions.
One party treats terrorists as criminals.
The other uses them as an excuse to start wars and max out the national credit card.
But even Democrats when in control have increased national defense spending. Even the Democrats didn't close down Guantanamo. Even the Democrats have sanctioned drone strikes in Pakistan and elsewhere.
This hardly sounds softer than the Republicans.
So the solution is to put the warmongers back in office? The Republicans don't like drone strikes. No real money in that. They would invade Pakistan.
They need war for two reasons. 1. Feed the profiteers who backed them. 2. Run up the deficit so the when the Dems they can't buy votes by doing things the people like.
Defense is a very delicate thing politically. I agree with Ron Paul on defense. But as long as the people are afraid you can't get elected that way.
One party starts wars and the other finishes them. Obama is ending the frikkin wars! And he wants to bring that money home to invest in America.
FDR started a war. JFK tried to start a war. Clinton claimed Iraq was pursuing nuclear weapons. And Obama isn't ending all the wars. He's revamped our strategy in the Mid East by drone striking Pakistan and simply followed Bush's exit strategy in Iraq.
The Dems are fed by the same war profiteers. Both parties are employed by the same corporations, though the Republicans do receive the lion's share.
The real solution is to put neither party in office. The true solution is to end political parties altogether.
LOL - FDR started a war?
Hhmmmm - I think you mean the Japanese. Remember Pearl Harbor?
OH & BTW - Would you want nuclear missiles in Cuba? Damn that stupid JFK - what was he thinking?
Do you remember when America forced Japan in the 1850's to open up their shores for American whaling ships by threat of force? That's the event that catalyzed Japan to overthrow the shogunate, reinstate the emperor, and industrialize. Secondly, the supposedly neutral America effectively blockaded their exports to Japan in the early 1940's. Even before that America had a history of anti-Japanese policies stunting Japanese industrial growth.
FDR wanted a war with the axis. He knew that soon socialism was going to take greater hold in politics as the anxieties of the impoverished Americans began to grow. However, New Deal policies actually gave greater power to corporations than they previously had, not to mention outrageous subsidies that still strangle our national budget.
I honestly wouldn't care if there were nuclear missiles in Cuba. We'd never have been bombed. The Soviets never even came close to launching a nuclear weapon at us. They never would have. The Bay of Pigs was a political, imperialist move. All JFK wanted at that time was to impose a pro-corporate government in Cuba. That is all.
You have an interesting take on history - cause and effect. Your analysis above short as it is leaves out much of what was going on around the world at the times you mention. It is not only not black and white it is a million shades of gray.
But one thing is an obvious constant in history - the pursuit of money and power - by governments ( nearly all ) and by businesses ( nearly all ). Quite often Business is the cause of armed conflict to secure their access to markets and resources. The same is true of governmental acquisitiveness resources money power.
The most peaceful of governments/societies are the ones where the people are involved in their government - and in being involved have curbed the destructive greedy acquisitiveness of government and business.
Sir, your analysis of history is far more black and white. You seemed to hold presidents like FDR and JFK up above humanity for reasons that were merely sold to us in history books as something that was necessary and good. The American people did not want to go to war in Europe at all, but the government precipitated events so that we would (such as arming England and blockading Japan). The people of America wanted economic freedom from abusive corporations, which we did not give them in the 1940's and rather pulled one over on them with the New Deal.
FDR also laid out a plan whereby America would eventually control the Middle East. He had many secret meetings with the Saudi Arabian king while he was in Europe meeting with Stalin and Churchill. And this like the example I gave before about Japan in the 1850's is what eventually led to 9/11 happening. FDR and the establishment had everything planned out.
People are always involved in government. The problem arises when government and corporations get too big and the people can't control them any longer.
Academia is different than real-world application.
Chomsky really pisses me off because he really is the "ivory tower Lib." He can sit up there in his tenured University seat and throw bolts of lightning, but what we need are crowbars and good internet connections. Pragmatics are not his thing. Zinn wrote that wonderful People's History, he actually fought in WW2, as a bombardier, remote, but affected. I think their work is great, but I believe they would want students and readers to build and expand from their work, not settle on it. They never said FDR and JFK had Con "counterparts" who they stole the New Deal and Peace Corp ideas from. They may have had the same bankers or tailors, take that back, Nixon hired through the mob.
You aren't "simply giving" me anything, you set up duh-factor strawmen. Which is dishonest, and Con MO.
The facts are that a bunch of Voters were duped and didn't Vote and let Cheney-W steal the Presidency twice and together with Cons in Congress used 9-11 War/Terror Frenzy to buffalo Dems and as a result millions of people died or were maimed, trillions of taxpayer dollars were lost and stolen, Laissez-Faire governing allowed THE WORLD'S GREATEST HEIST, collapsed the world economy, losing millions of jobs, homes and families. All a massive transfer of wealth to the top 1% who owns them. And the dirty rotten mother fuckers Cons are now in our faces blaming it all on the skinny black guy in the WH and Dem policies which is nothing but totally insulting BULL SHIT!! All these same Cons have been busted for plotting against the POTUS and the Country and for all these things they should be thrown in GITMO, much less ever see a seat in any form Government again.
But since the owners of the Cons, a greed-addled few in the 1%, managed to have CU made law, in this Class War, we have to out match their dirty money with massive 99% Votes.
So People of the 99% fight back in this Class War, use the weapon our forefathers left us ~ democracy ~ and VOTE!!!
Hear, hear. Well said.
The problem is not settling on their works, but regressing from it. What they taught us from examining history is that the policies of the Republicans and Democrats aren't that different. Just LOOK at history, it's not hiding from you. Both have called for war, both have restricted the rights of free speech at times, and both have implemented economic policies that helped only the corporation that bankroll both of them. FDR sent armed forces to break union strikers. JFK sent armed soldiers to break black Civil Rights protests during the 60's. These are facts, not hearsay or conservative propaganda.
Yes, the Republicans are unfairly attacking the president, but he hasn't really implemented a progressive policy since being in the White House. Romney already beat him to the universal health care department, and he's a Republican.
Look, don't just blindly follow an ideology without being able to criticize it or to take criticism of it. FDR did not give us the New Deal because of his heart of gold, but because social unrest threatened the entire system. Welfare pacified to impoverished class, and helped in creating a stable Middle Class as a buffer against the lower. Here's a quote from Zinn's chapter "Robber Barons and Rebels":
"The Government of the United States was behaving almost exactly as Karl Marx described a capitalist state: pretending neutrality to maintain order, but serving the interests of the rich.... the purpose of the state was to settle upper-class disputes peacefully, control lower-class rebellion, and adopt policies that would further the long-range stability of the system. The arrangement between Democrats and Republicans to elect Rutherford Hayes in 1877 set the tone. WHETHER DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS WON (emphasis mine), national policy would not change in any important way."
You aren't "simply giving" me anything, you set up duh-factor strawmen. Which is dishonest, and Con MO.
(Excerpt) "The system is flawed because Big $ controls it! We the People have ceded it to them by encouraged abandonment, neglect and ignorance!!!
"No, We the People "aren't aware." Learning that "nothing works" and Voting "makes no difference" is the brainwash swill Big $ wants us to believe! Is this your naivete or deception? Either way it's DEAD WRONG!!
"Orwell's "Newspeak" and "Doublethink" are in full operation.
"Get out the Vote, people!! If it didn't matter, these bastards wouldn't be trying soooo fucking hard to suppress it!! And they will stop at nothing!!!"
You are right the American people wanted to have nothing to do with the war in Europe. Business loved selling armaments and supplies though. If Japan had left the USA ( Pearl Harbor ) alone it is likely we would not have gone to war in either theater - because of the public being dead set against it. Think of what Asia would look like now if we had not confronted the Japanese and their invasion of China and the Philippines. Would Australia exist as it does today? What would the Middle East India and Africa look like today. And if the Germans had won in Europe and western Asia and North Africa and their campaign in the Middle East. Would they have joined with Japan and come over to the Americas? Would they have fought each other - ending their pact?
The new deal was not perfect it was screwed-up in many ways and it set-up new power conglomerates - but it also got people to work and money flowing into the economy. Could it have been done better? HELL YES - but then again there was the influence of those with money/power who took advantage of the situation.
Was it FDR that set-up the Middle East requisition of oil resources or was it again set-up and pushed by business in collusion with government?
People are always involved with government - true - generally the rich/powerful individuals. The population is who needs to get involved and stay involved.
Beverly Hillbillies Theme Song
Instead of Germany, Japan, and Italy having conquered the world and oppressing it, the United States and it's allies are. I don't see how our guns are better than Germany's guns. Instead of killing Jews, we're killing Middle Easterners. What's the big difference?
We let France rule Vietnam (and we know how THAT turned out), but we fret when Communism and China moved into Korea during the Korean. We let the Sudanese kill each other, but intervene against Saddam Hussein when Iraq moves into Kuwait. We let the Ciquita Banana set up a Banana Republic in Columbia.
How is the world any better for our policing of it vs. the axis powers? Sure, it could have been worse, but we can only speculate. The United States exterminated more Native Americans than Germany ever did the Jews. Why can the United States steal territory from Mexico and not Japan from Manchuria?
Governments were doing corrupt things before big business. They may as well be one in the same in this day and age. They are both allowed to be corrupt because of each other. When big media needs a break, we give it to them. When we decide to kill an atrocious amount of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan, the media looks the other way. When Dick Cheney's former Haliburton makes loads of money in war-profiteering, do we hear too much about it?
(no reply left)
I'm an authentic Lib, I originate, I create. I lead.
I'm thinking maybe you mean well, but you're soooo utterly confused... Quit drinking your own bath water and see if your eyes open, just a little.
I'm glad you continue to engage in this conversation.
I understand you are an authentic liberal. But do you really think Zinn and Chomsky are Republican cronies when they say that FDR and JFK weren't very different from their Republican counterparts?
I'm simply giving you the history of the Democratic party. Those things are true. The Bay of Pigs was true. The Internment of Japanese Americans during WWII was true. The Mexican-American War actually happened largely in thanks to the Democrats who were in power. Obama's policies continue to siege Pakistan with drone strikes. What is so conservative about pointing out the atrocities the Democrats are capable of?
RW hack, aka Zombie!!
Which is why we have to reclaim our Gov/Politics. We have ceded them to Big $. Perpetuating this abandonment is surrendering our G/P to $.
Let's turnout like Big $ does and take our democracy back!!
Turnout the Vote! Fight back in this Class War!! VOTE!!!
Are you a liberal or a troll?
Read Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States." Read some Noam Chomsky.
if you cant see the difference between muslims and jews in terms of inovations , you're entirely hopless. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ then look at http://israel21c.org/
You know, you just might be a little bit racist.
good understanding. But fed machine is too big to stop. its going to constantly moving like in Hollywood picture
So the solution is to put the warmongers back in office?
The solution is to kick out all warmongers, both the Ds and Rs. They are both warmongers. Both of them.
The warmongers are the NeoCons. Not all of the R's and none of the D's.
And don't give the the voting for it crap. As I recall that vote was not to go to war but to give the President the power to ...something. I don't remember.
When was the last declaration of war? WWII I think.
Yes, that was the last declaration of war. And it was a Democratically controlled Congress. Heck, the Democratic party was founded on a warmonger: Andrew Jackson. We can thank him for the removal of the Native Americans from their territory, the Trail of Tears, and our push to the West.
The Mexican-American War was a war by the prevailing Democratic Party.
Bill Clinton sent a military force to Haiti to overthrow their government. What right did we have to do that?
Don't feed me this "Democrats don't want war" business, because their history is full of it.
when israel became state the muslims/arabs there were told to leave by their own people. jordan threw out the so called palestinians, they didnt want their own brethren. when israel gave the gaza over to the palestinians, it had a thriving agricultural business. the palis quickly , on purpose destroyed all the greenhouses. if you read the entire page , ( which i doubt) you would know that islam is at war with not only all non muslims, but with muslims who do not strictly adhere to the koran. its an ongoing current listing.
The reason I have trouble reading the entirety of the website--which is certainly a well stocked website that would take hours to read everything--is that it doesn't provide a non-biased approach to studying contemporary Muslim society. It just seems like anti-Muslim propaganda. Some things on it are true, but others are taken to extremes.
On the same token, one could argue that extremist Christians are fighting against anyone who deviates from a strictly extremist Christian diet--gays, Unitarians, intellectuals, liberals. Even President Bush called his excursions into the Middle East "a crusade," which would give any Muslim the thought that Christians were out to get them.
The Palestinians had land taken from them that had been in their possession for years. That was the beginning of the transgression. Secondarily, American, British, and Soviet forces have for years been trying to control Middle Eastern political discourse. That was the root of the Iranian Revolution, and why militant Islamist came to power. That's why al-Qaeda attacked us. We also largely provided these groups the tools of destruction, so is it any surprise that they would actually use them?
Just because Philadelphia has an immense homicide rate, would you say Americans are violent, or would you also factor in the comparatively low homicide rate of Cambridge, MA?
Israel is a state that is supported by the West both financially and ideologically, so is it any surprise that they could make technological advances? Arab countries are not so lucky and are oppressed. It's not a matter of races, but of groups of people that are being oppressed. It's a matter of poverty.
did you read the entire site http://www.therreligionofpeace.com/
read it all, it's long but filled with current facts about muslim behavior. http://israel21c.org/ is quite different. while muslims are busy killing muslims, the israelis are busy with medical discoveries and inovations.
The Israelis are also busy displacing Palestinians. Muslims should have every right to be angry and confused about their place in the world.
Because Americans killed each other during the Civil War, did that make us a worthless species?
For every atrocity listed on that page, I can cite you a contemporary act equal in terror that American citizens have committed. You can't just pick the bad and suggest that's the best of what a society has to offer.
did you go to the sites and read them? sorry but the racist label doesnt work anymore. try to see the facts beyond the labels.
I didn't before, but because you urged me to I did.
It's easy to call one group of people good and the other bad if you pick and choose the good and the bad. Are Christians evil because that guy in Norway killed all those kids in the name of Christianity? How about the Crusades? The Jews, in the Old Testament, had a pretty violent past.
Jesus himself says in Matthew 10:34, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth : I came not to send peace, but a sword."
When taken out of context, it sounds pretty violent. I have not read the Qur'an, so I can't speculate on messages alone out of context as given by that website. But to say Muslims are more violent than Jews is to completely forget the environment they are raised in (thanks to the disarray we have left them in since the beginning of the 20th Century) and whether or not the perpetrators of the violence are actually spiritually adherent to their religion or just paying lip service. Even the Crusaders justified their ransacking of Muslim territory with religion.
You also completely neglect to address how peaceful former day Muslims were during their Golden Age, how technologically advanced they were. Cultures ebb and flow.
And what about how violent Israel can be? Does them bombing the Gaza strip make all Jews bloodthirsty warmongers?
you have trouble reading the site because ti doesnt conform to the agenda that you have been taught. Israel is a success because of its people, NOT western support. it's a small country packed with brilliant people that have a great work ethic.
Vote the issues. We need progressive policies to resolve the crises all these right wing policies have created. Whatever candidate will do that should be elected.
Dems might be better of progressives weren't asleep, and apathetic. It really is a problem whose roots are in our uninvolvement. It's our fault. We let corps take over!
we had help from the greens and the "they're all the same" crowd, every time someone says that, it gives the corporate Ds cover to do what they do, we must demand the Ds address our concerns not trun our back as some suggest, I think those that suggest such things secretly fear the loss of power that exposing the GOP would be for the 1%, they hang on by a thread, the thread that common folk got no where to turn, that we can do nothing to upset the balance of power, but if we put our thumbs on the scale and tip it to one side we can bring down their house of cards, of course that means fight for the the Ds, for now
I like the greens and other 3rd parties (WF, socialist, communist). The thing they (the ones I support) have in common is they are progressive and recognize that our problems are rooted in conservative policies that benefit the 1% plutocrats. The same policies that are proudly trumpeted by the repubs, and always seem to get enough spineless dems to vote for them.
Both parties are part of the problem. Just different parts.
Peace
You know George Washington didn't want the two party system, but the Constitution got in his way too. It is good to raise voices for truth it is foolish to think a vote for a third party does anything but help the 1%, as tough as it may be, we have to find a difference between two, (because the founders wrote it that way) and just keep fighting to get the best choices we can on election day.
I agree. People naturally create goups (parties). Our parties simply reflect age old approaches to human problems. The political spectrum has not been rescinded. 3rd parties are frequently niche parties focusing on one particular issue. But they certainly inhabit the political spectrum. I can agree with the green party because it inhabits the left side (progressive) of the political spectrum.
The 2 party system can be better than a multi party system in that there aren't many factions to contend with. For our purposes there is real benefit in 3rd parties supporting a larger party who incorporates the 3rd party position.
Americas biggest problem in regards to the current party system is: We allowed the wealthy plutocrats to control both parties. pushing the left inhabiting party (dems) to towards the right for 30 years. Money out of politics, strong, active, constant protests WILL rectify that problem.
We can drag the Dems back from the right, and make them serve the 99%.
Peace
A few things I guess, I think that the fact that some other nations have constitutions that allow for more minority representation at the federal level causes some confusion among people who think that is possible under our constitution, which it is not because of “winner take all” geographical districts. The merits could be looked at but not much point, without a Constitutional Convention, and I oppose that, things will not change here, on Election Day we must pick between the top two if we want to have a say in policy.
We have been brainwashed into believing that money=freedom by those with an interest in doing so. We have also been convinced that politic is a bad thing so we want very little to do with it. (as a people I’m talking) and we certainly don’t want to be “forced” to pay for their folly. So that leaves the power and influence to those with the money to buy it. If you piss off too many rich people you won’t have the money to run again. The thing they fear the most is public funding, if the rich cannot buy elections, their arguments will be seen quickly enough for the self serving shit they are.
Agreed. And to expand on multi party more minority rep I would point to italy (and other euro countries).
Too many parties can be a problem. How often do we hear that a country most "form a coalition" with smaller parties who have in effect split the vote of one side of the political spectrum.
Best thing we can do is resurrect the dems as a representative of progressives in this country.
Money is not speech, And I will know corps are people when Texas executes one.
Support public funding of compaigns
That is a pathetic attitude. True on some levels, but pathetic none the less.
Are you saying the Constitution is pathetic, or accepting reality?
Besides what’s pathetic about fighting for better choices on Election Day?
More insults. nothing but!! It's all you are about. nothing positive. "If you can't say something nice......"
Is your goal simply to put down people who disagree with you? Are your positions so weak they cannot compete in the marketplace of ideas.?
All you want is to get progressives to give up their right to vote!!!
You are transparently trying to help conservatives! no?
Vote out anti green tech politicians!
Yes that i will agree on. "It's our fault. We let the corps take over."
A cult of lying.
What else ??? They lie about everything.
Best bet going forward is a landslide at the presidential level.
Maybe doable:
Mitt Romney -- fatal accident at Beaulac revisited
http://foolmoon.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/337209/Mitt_Romney_fatal_accident_at_.html
Or here without the discussion:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/slandering-bishop-jean-felix-albert-marie-vilnet-f/
Funny stuff here:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=ApCZR10Y.8osj3Og8G_xAPAjzKIX;_ylv=3?qid=20120703150130AAKLHrN
We know the other driver was Bishop Jean Vilnet from photographs and meeting him, but they can't give up on lying.
Romney is way worse as a candidate than Palin. He could end up at 40% or even less if something breaks last week before the vote.
The man's an addicted liar.
Right wingers...... Lost.... Same difference.
The Romney campaign is sad. I almost feel sorry for him sometimes. They will need a major October Surprise.
But the important thing is the legislature. Send those 2010 TP guys back home. (Mine, please do mine!) Two more years of having both houses would be sweet.
IF, a big IF, we don't just sit on our butts and watch again. Winning the election is just the start of the fight.
Depressing the Republican voter turnout will do exactly that. Apart from Mormons, he's going to drive people away by the millions.
And the Senate filibuster is about to go away for use as a permanent blocking tool. It's been abused far too much. Harry Reid has been clear on this.
Really? That would be awesome.
The filibuster should be minimized if not eliminated.
But in regards to repub turnout I think the hatred for this black president is all the repub right wing wacko.base needs to get riled up.
We'll see.
Yeah, but that is not nearly enough. 20%?
I don't know why is so worried about those folks.
20% of the repub electorate might be so rabidly racist that they would vote for the mormon mass mod Romney. If Obama was just a vanilla dem (no pun intended ;) they would probably stay home.
Same deal with Clinton. What pisses them off is that they are not greedy.
How are they supposed to deal with people who are not greedy? They can not fathom that. Flabbergasted. That is why they seem like aliens.
Yeah. insidious, evil, right wing wackos.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Big $ shows up, We the People don't!
Of course it is a "Propaganda Ploy," you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-Minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
When we have to consistently defend against this wild assertion, it becomes obvious why our country is trouble. When we're this far off the rail, it really does take the wind out of our sails. What hope can we have. This is apathy on a scale never seen before. It would be like saying ALL Americans are exactly the same. How can people buy into this crap? It's so pathetic that every time I hear this argument it reminds me of just how far we have sunk.
Come Together NOW
Yes, I will keep saying it although the chances of anything coming together is not very good. Don't hang your hat on it. But I am a dreamer and I know I'm not the only one
Thank you. Ignoring the truth is beset with peril.
Everyone needs to learn how to respect truth when it aligned with facts and evidence. Bullets can kill. Ideas are more deadly.
Enlightenment is only answer to those blissful in their ignorance. Unfortunately it requires effort and determination that's where the pack thins.
Who's up for that? I am, and always will be.
Come Together NOW
Things are NOT always as they appear. There IS a big difference in the two party's rhetoric; NOT so much in their right-winged actions. BOTH are corporatist. BOTH are bought by the same people. BOTH sides lean right; the only difference is the degree.
“Keep looking below surface appearances. Don't shrink from doing so just because you might not like what you find.”
Colin Powell
“For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are”
Niccolo Machiavelli
Don't let them convince you to vote Democrat IF YOU WANT to Vote for a Third party. You vote for president is the only opporutunity to make a statement about what you believe.
Consider Jill Stein, Green Party. http://www.jillstein.org/
I like what I have seen of Jill Steins beliefs and concerns.
But no matter who gets into office ( and lets make sure it is a people person ) they will need major league support throughout government ( pro-people politicians ).
So figure - if Obummer gets re-elected we will have two more years minimum of the same old BS from the senate and congress.
You can damn well depend that if Jill Stein or any other pro-people person gets the office that they will face the same BS.
The only remedy to that is to recall/fire the anti-people politicians ASAP or replace them in two years - after enduring the same BS that is going on at this very moment.
It could be people wanted real change when Jimmy Carter was Elected. They say he didn't work well with congress, but maybe he refused to be corrupted. We are in the same place we were in 1976.
46 years and no progress. No lessons learned from Vietnam or from Watergate, and CIA covert actions. Plus now we have seen the DEA and the Banks become completely corrupted.
Change requires time. I'm guessing if Jill Stein got elected it would be at least 10 years to actually start hammering out some 'Real Solutions'. And might have been the Eliot Spitzer show on line with Matt taibbi or someone else regarding financial corruption. "It may take a new generation of Bankers ...like in 10 years to get their heads all on straight and be knowledgeable about 'not wanting banking corruption'.
None of it will happen with out the full involvement of a major portion of the public/population in the running of their government. State and Federal.
How would we know the difference from what we got now. Not being funny. But I guess I am a cynic. We got one year out of Obama, then 3 years of him trying not to do anything the republicans didn't like.
So I wouldn't really expect anything from re-election. Then there are the weird legacy type stuff that start happening. And pardons for people in prison.
But we got the IRan thing and all the ideas the military had from the Vietnam era are coming true. Like the fall of Libya and Syria. Egypt might have been one of those too since they were not big allies like Isreal or the Kindom of Saud. Jordan kinda became a buddy. Turkey had been a buddy for a long time.
Romeny and Obama are both rightwingers. Hard to say if the election will change much.
Like I said - until we get pro-people in office we will not see a change for the better. A single person in government can not make the difference required - whether that person is a senator a congressman or the potus.
And to have this happen we need the population to get involved and stay involved so that government does not revert to anti-people politics.
What about social program cuts and austerity imposed by a new republican president?
Will you vote against a republican and ...against a deeper economic recession as public jobs shrink further at the state and local level at a minimum. Chicago should scape it's pension plans from what I had heard. And even federal jobs will see cuts across the board or at least in non-military jobs if Romney gets the win.
I am sorry did you not understand my last comment?
Let me boil it down to the salient point then :
Until we get pro-people in office we will not see a change for the better.
Take it one step further :
If an anti-people president comes into office right now we will see things accelerate down the shithole. Further in two years time if we see an increase in anti-people senators and congressmen we will be on a rocket straight to hell.
That ship already 'Sailed', we live in a shit-hole. You have more hope and optimism than I. Seems to me that ship sailed around 1970... or maybe the last good act was to end the Vietnam War in 1975.
Keating Five was 1989. At the very least the ship sailed in 1989 when a regulator, William K. Black, had to testify against 5 members of congress in the Savings and Loan Scandal.
I just want to gripe, I guess.
OH I can well understand the anger and the need to vent. I mean yes our society and our world is truly fucked-up at this very point in time.
But what would you suggest doing differently then what I have suggested?
Change Agent: Someone who create a new Paradigm.
It is near impossible not to think about forming an enclave some where in another country ...or maybe in a state that seems to hold my political concerns.
Enclave. But it requires education and study and political awareness and maybe political activism. I'm not a political activist at this point. I'm just trying to learn what is going on.
People have tried to teach workshops on 'how to be an agent of change'.
1) Write a non-fiction book
2) Write a fiction book or screen play that shows people a new perspective.
3) Teach children
4) Become a story teller, actually take stories and read to kids
5) Activism
6) Become a community organizer and educator
7) Print pamphlets
8) Organize Forums or Salons in coffee shops or libraries or churches
9) International reach-out, meet foreign people, discuss economics and politics, brings stories, pictures, back to your community.
All of these things that you have listed are being done.
Here - I will turn you on to a science fiction movie that is kind of an updated 1984 mixed in with a Robo-Cop type world.
Watch - Hard Wired. It is about a corpoRAT run world.
You may also like the Dune series of books - take the priceless spice world Dune and picture the middle east take spice and substitute oil.
Well, I haven't seen that one. Reminds me of Johnny Mnemonic 1995 which I like pretty well. Actually I have seen at least 2 film versions of Dune, and read like 3 of the Dune books 30 years ago. I like the dune stuff. I guess there are like a bunch more books I never read. Yep, good stuff for writing a screen play, but sci fi doesn't sell as well as cop stuff. I'd be happy if I got a book finished or written no matter what it was though. ...my personallity fits better wtih sci fi probably. Actaully we live in sci fi now. The rumor is if you have information in a memory device and travel to China, it will be stolen within a couple of days.
Wonder if he will be given the opportunity to migrate with his job?
Or be forced to migrate if he wants to keep the job.
As making that kind of money most businesses that need that kind of high buck employee usually do not hire local candidates in their new sweatshop homes.
[-] 1 points by Middleaged (944) 0 minutes ago
An old room mate tells me he is one of the 1% now. But his job will go to Singapore or China within 3 years. I guess he must have mixed feelings. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink
I heard that too - something about since they build the equipment now - when you visit - their network will enter your device through a data backdoor and download every thing on your device.
I would not put it past them to do something like that - they are long time industrial and intellectual thief's.
That is why some companies that have outsourced work to them have stopped outsourcing there as they got ripped off on their product designs.
An old room mate tells me he is one of the 1% now. But his job will go to Singapore or China within 3 years. I guess he must have mixed feelings.
Is it really all just a - Grand Illusion?
I don't think so.
Though I could be mistaken.
If the 1% wants both parties to go north, they go north. Maybe the D's go northwest and the R's go northeast, but they're both going north. Look at healthcare. The major players in the dem party stopped the drive for single payer. That demonstrates they're puppets of the corporate healthcare cabal. They pretend to fight for the people while feeding us into the profit hungry healthcare corporate machine.
A piece from across the pond about how bad it's gotten, I hope people wake up and stop this weak ass "bi-partisan" crap:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/09/did-republicans-deliberately-crash-us-economy
They are very much the same when it comes to anything that would actaully change things. They're both for ridiculous military spending and never ending wars overseas...they're both for the same corrupt financial federal reserve system of fiat money...they're both for deficit spending and printing money to accomplish this.
You need to look more closely.
As far as i can tell this is just a continuation and expansion of bush:
http://stpeteforpeace.org/obama.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/07/03/1105574/-STOP-telling-me-Both-sides-do-it
I need an ID to get a freaking library card....producing an ID is not that hard.
"liberal equivalent of Rush Limbaugh"....MSNBC has a whole slew of people trying to copy fox and Limbaugh....they aren't as good at it arguably...same deal though...trying to provide information to cement their ideological perspective. It's not really news.
Government mandated ID's! Are they free? Will they come to your house to make you an ID? Well, then it is a government mandated poll tax.
And the only reason for it is suppressing the vote. If these people were mostly Republicans there would be no "problem" with voter fraud. Which, of course, there isn't. That is why they spend so much money to make you believe that. If it were true it would be obvious.
"trying to provide information" You mean misinformation. It makes no sense to spend money to spread truth. Only lies and counters to lies. All advertising is like that.
Goes to intent. The intent of the library card is to get the books back so others can enjoy them too. The intent of jumping through hoops voter id laws is to suppress turnout. Done.
And sure the liberals have their propaganda too. It's like nuclear weapons. If one side does it, the other side has to get some too. The difference is liberals are smarter and know it's propaganda. Most of the other side doesn't. Besides, truth has a liberal bias. haha. And the other side eschews the facts and rather runs on emotion and fear. It's the most effective way to appeal to the conservative brain. The Jesus freaks and the gun nuts. They're driven by fear. That's why they need God and their guns. Just cut through all those facts and go straight to fear mongering. They just eat that shit up. Like Chinese eat rice.
http://mediamatters.org/
"Goes to intent. The intent of the library card is to get the books back so others can enjoy them too. The intent of jumping through hoops voter id laws is to suppress turnout. Done."
Possibly the motive for some of the politicians....won't argue with that. Still think it's about as benign as it gets though...and it makes a system that is harder to cheat. Pretty darn easy to vote a few times if you don't have to produce any form of ID.
"The liberals are smarter and know it's propaganda."
Yeah...not buying that one....maybe some of them...just like there's some on the repub side. Both use fear to drive their agendas.
'Still think it's about as benign as it gets though'. Shut the front door! Nothing ALEC is involved with is benign.
ALEC doesn't support voter id because they're worried about a few people casting an extra ballot. They support it because it's good for big business. And they know that Republicans are the hand that feeds them the most. That's where they get their biggest returns on investment. Because Republicans share their ideology. What's good for business and the 1% is good for all. It's supply side rational so the rich can get richer. Even when demand is the problem. They still insist on supply side policies. The wealthy and corporations are the 'job creators' crap.
Besides, studies of voter fraud have proven that it is statistically insignificant. But the 10 year right wing campaign to suppress voter turnout is statistically significant. According to the Brennan Center for Justice, 'approximately five million eligible voters across the country will be adversely affected'. Bush won by .5 million(supposedly) 1st term and 3 million in his second term. Pres. Obama won by 9.5 million.
'Both use fear to drive their agendas'. Gee whiz I don't know. Healthcare mandate - it's socialism! Raise taxes on the wealthy - it's socialism! Wall Street regulation - it's socialism! err I mean - the banks won't be able to function or lend money (edit: they're lending money now? What happened to their casino gambling business?). It might hurt the banks. It might -gasp- harm the economy even! (edit: huh? I think we've already been down that road. Even if. That's a chance I'm willing to take). It will destroy the free market! Yes, it's socialism!
wtf? Who wants a free market anyway? So we can have unrestrained tyranny by corporations? Because that sounds like oh such a good idea.
They see socialism everywhere. But that's all they've got. Plus it works well on the conservative brain which is hardwired to respond to fear.
900 right wing sponsored bills across state legislatures attacking womens rights. Yes that scares the hell out of me. ALEC written bills sponsored by Republicans across the country. Yes that scares the hell out of me. Any bill supported by Eric Cantor, Paul Ryan or John Boehner, or any other batshit crazy Ayn Randian neolib - scares the hell out of me. Any budget (Ryan/Romney) that would give $295M tax breaks to millionaires at the expense of the most needy and underpriveleged in society, especially elderly and children. Total fucking sub-human lunatics. Sub-human lunatics scare the hell out of me.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/11/17/sen-bernie-sanders-deficit-caused-by-wars-tax-breaks-and-wall-street/
Yep 'fraid so. Liberals are smarter, on balance. The Republican base is made up of Jesus freaks and gun nuts. The first group of people can't distinguish fact from fiction. And the other group of people don't really mind that they don't have enough money to buy food. So long as they have their guns. They can just shoot their next meal.
Though I have not exactly been overly friendly or graceful in my comments to you in the past, your very nice comment above deserves much consideration and so on the matter of 'Voter Fraud' and for some insights into who is doing the 'fraud' and how and why, I append a link to a very illuminating if not disturbing documentary film and three other relevant links :
"Murder, Spies, and Voting Lies" : http://seattlecommunitymedia.org/node/10430 (full audio kicks in at 1:50, low audio level in general so will require increase in volume.) This doc. film is also viewable on 'YouTube' in six parts. I strongly recommend this doc. for reasons which will become quite obvious on viewing.
"It’s a Sabotage!" ('The BIG Picture Show' with Thom Hartmann), "Tonight’s political panel talks the latest from the voter purge scandal in Florida and .... whether the Supreme Court will listen to former Justice Stevens’ latest comments against Citizens United ..." : http://rt.com/programs/big-picture/sabotage-tonights-latest-republican/ ,
"America’s Voting System Is a Complete Farce", by Mac Slavo : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article31059.htm &
"The Republican 'Voter Fraud' Fraud - All over the US, GOP lawmakers have engineered schemes to make voting more difficult. Well, if you can't win elections fairly .. ", by Diane Roberts, 'The Guardian' : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29577.htm .
fiat lux ...
You have honest intentions and i respect that...i just disagree with a lot...although i agree with a lot too. I'm no fan of canter, ryan or Boehner by any means. I'm no fan of fear mongering to scare people into unnecessary wars overseas that have nothing to do with what is told to the american people. I just finished reading a book written by Robert Pape called "Dying to Win"....u'd enjoy it.
You think that because i believe in the free market that i must not care about people...that i think it's a dog eat dog world...survival of the fittest screw the people that can't fend for themselves. What if i told you that i support it because of the exact opposite? Because i want the most amount of people to thrive and live great lives? You chart economic freedom (how free market a country is) vs just about any indicator you can think of (GDP, employment, earnings, GDP/capita etc. etc. ) and what do you find...the more free a society, the better off the average person is. I don't want a society that screws over the people...i want one that thrives and makes people wealthy...where they have the opportunity to do what they want.
Yes the wars and tax breaks increase the deficit....but you forgot the other side of the coin as well:
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/medicare-faces-unfunded-liability-386t-or-328404-each-us-household
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-06-06-us-debt-chart-medicare-social-security_n.htm
How bout trillions and trillions of unfunded liabilities.
ok. Let's play Economic Theory. Behind Door #1 we have - A Free Market. Where you see free, I see abuse. A free market is inherently greedy and individualistic and does not effectively provide the means to balance societal well being when it conflicts with the profit motive. Because capitalists aren't angels. If they we're - then sure. We could have a free market. But they're not. They're greedy bastards.
I suppose that the Fair Labor Standards Act was created because capitalists treated their workers oh so well. But hey hell. Lets throw out the Fair Labor Standards Act and put our children to work as wage slaves to compete with China! Free Market baby! Whoot whoot!!
When did we have a free market? In the 1800's? It's not 1850 anymore. It's the 21st century post industrial global age. And you think the simple rules that applied to a mostly simple agrarian society in 1850 are sufficient for today?
'dog eat dog' - but that's what capitalism is. That's why it's considered a stable, efficient and effective system (relative to other systems). Precisely because it's Darwinian. Survival of the fittest. And that's why we don't have a 'free market'. Because it would be truly barbaric and cruel. Leaving lots of dead bodies behind. That's why we have a mixed economy, and we seek to restrain the harsher elements of capitalism. Because we're civilized people.
I don't think you're ill intended. I think you're romaticizing what a free market would look like in a complex industrialized nation.
Sweden, Japan, Switzerland, Norway, Finland, Canada - all have lower income/wealth inequalities which correlates with better social outcomes. Higher income inequality correlates with worse social outcomes in developed nations. Most of these countries have much stronger government social policies. So I suppose you would classify them as less 'free'. And they're alot healthier by many socio-economic measures. More socialistic in many ways, and less free market. More government intervention, stronger government social programs, health and welfare, strong public education systems, and much higher progressive tax rates. And most of them are more democratic than we are. Canada for instance provides public funding for election. Private money in elections are banned.
So no, I do not think you are correct. More economic freedom does not necessarily correlate with better socio-economic outcomes in developed nations. I think the average person, in the countries I used as examples above, the average person there is better off in some ways than the average person here.
I know I know. High tax rates and regulations can inhibit economic growth. But extreme levels of wealth inequality correlates with lots of dangerous and corrosive socio-economic effects. You don't think this inhibits growth?? Extreme levels of wealth inequality is damaging to democracy itself. Maybe this is what is inhibiting growth. Maybe the very corruption that has enabled wealth inequality is the thing that is inhibiting growth.
The medicare problem - yeah it's a problem. Mainly because of demographics, the baby boom. We need the next big thing. Some enormous innovation. That will produce gobs of good high paying jobs to generate increased tax revenues . That won't happen unless we have the best education system in the world. Because ultimately it's innovation that creates jobs. I don't think we'll get there by laying off teachers. It's a downward spiral.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
You mean its not capital that creates jobs? Innovation and demand creates jobs? And you can't have innovation with out education? Oh the horror.... the horror... LOL.
Nice post. [thumbs up!]
Yeah right. I can hear the moronic neo-libs followers now - 'bbbbut, I thought the wealthy were the job creators?'
The US used to have the largest % of college grads in the world. Now we're 16th. But yeah, lets layoff more teachers. Austerity baby!
How come Free Market Lovers still think its 1850???? Besides, I don't think it was all flowers and sunshine in the 1800's anyway. I guess they're just hopeless romantics for the past. The way way past.
give every human $50 bucks a day and let them spend their money to guild thew economy
Where does the money come from?
the money can be pulled from the large pools it will invariably collect in
http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/05/playing-monopolis-monopoly-an-inquiry-into-why-we-are-making-ourselves-so-miserable.html
Just finished reading through the whole thing. It was very painful for me....i've read these ideas many times before and dug into them...and it hurts me to read because these ideas hurt the average person...very much. This author does a very good job of not explaining what the stimulus does and the monsters it creates. I'll go over a few of them, but i beg you to sit down and watch this video of Tom Woods...the link should start you at 14 minutes and 30 seconds..if it doesn't...fast forward to there. Hang in there with it...and take note that i've seem Tom destroy the right wing...bush he couldn't stand...hates Romney......limbaugh and fox jackasses...same deal. So don't get frustrated and stop watching...and try to go into it and clear your head....don't let previous things you think to be true stop you from really listening to what is said. The book is better, but i highly doubt people are on here and are going to buy my reading suggestions..so here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlUwkC_B2p8&t=14m30s
To go over a few things myself. This author fails to mention many important things. Inflation being one....inflation is something that is happening because of this...in fact many countries have wound up in hyperinflations because this is a self feeding cycle...he pokes fun at hyperinflations...but i would suggest you pick up a copy of Peter Bernholz - Monetary Regimes and Inflation". This is a great book that describes the history of inflation in society’s dating back to the Roman currency debasement in the 4th century.
But put hyperinflation out of the way...lets just say inflation in the society. Watch this 2 minute video on how this transfers wealth to the upper class..its a simplified version of how it works, but the theory is correct:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx16a72j__8&feature=player_embedded
Inflation (or just injecting money...or letting the gov print it) also erodes your savings. Do you want to retire at some point in your life? Do you want your savings to be safe? If you do, you don't want inflation...and you want to seriously minimize inflation's. Don't think this is happening? The dollar has lost 95% of its value from 1913...this screws people over who are saving money for retirement. The scary thing is that inflation was somewhat in check for the majority of those years until 1971 when the gold standard was abandoned completely.
He also talks about the "building code" regulations. It was great, because he lays it out perfectly. You guys at OWS really hate monopolies right? You have just forced out of the market all the startup companies that can't afford the $1000 to pay for the building code....you're essentially propped up the major businesses that are controlling the market already and stopped competition that might not have as much captital a chance to ever enter the market....this leads to monopolies. I agree there should be some regulations to protect people...but there is a major double edged sword and there are many examples of large corps lobbying for regs that will force competition from having any chance in the market.
The notion at the end that "if we ran surplusses the game would come to and end as CIG would get all its money back again." In this fake monopoli game perhaps....there is actually real wealth in the world...its called commodities..gold. When the fed came into existence people had gold that wasn't owed to anyone..true wealth. When the first reserve notes started they were actually backed by gold (and hence they never had to be repaid to anyone). As soon as those notes were expanded beyond the backing of gold then you start to see that every dollar created must be repaid back at some time...but there is a base currency that used to represent true wealth. It also negates the fact that in the real world what the heck is a government going to do with a surplus eventually...they're obviously going to spend it or give it back to the people. Might be wise to chip away at that 16 trillion dollar debt. According to this guy though that doesn't matter...and if his theory was correct we should print a million dollars for every man woman and child in this country.
He also doesn't incorporate fractional reserves which wouldn't let his balance sheet w/ the gov equal what the private sector has.
There are so many things i can attack in here...but the best thing i can do is provide the argument of the other side...watch that first video if nothing else.
These are krugmans idea right? Krugman supported the stimulus of housing in 2001...the exact things all the austrians were screaming at...saying this would create a housing bubble and destroy everyone..why listen to a guy who has been wrong over and over again? Study Japan....there's a good example of this type of mindset in action. But watch the video...please...if nothing else...start at 14:30
there is actually real wealth in the world...its called commodities..gold. When the fed came into existence people had gold that wasn't owed to anyone..true wealth.
I have to disagree with you on this. Gold is just as much as an illusion as paper money. Money does not equal wealth. Currency is a place holder that facilitates trade.
Owning the means to production is wealth. If you have a shop that produces chairs, you make them... then you have created goods that you can trade with your neighbors for other goods. Having that ability to create goods is what true wealth is. You can use it at any time.
Currency was created to help this trade, make it easier. There is very little inherent value in gold. Over half of the gold mined is used for jewelry.
yeah i agree...what i was trying to say was that the guy in the article was wrong...that not all money is debt....because originally money was backed by gold and it wasn't owed to anyone like the new reserve notes are.
Watch the first video....14:30
The new ver ID laws being pushed by republcans/ALEC in something 38 states are just attempts at voter suppression of Democrat leaning voters.
It is the only way republicans can win. By limiting the turnout. They cannot win on their agenda because their agenda is anti women, anti immigrant, anti LGBT, anti minority, Anti middle class, Anti 99%.
Vote out pro ALEC politicians.!
I think it's logical to have a voting system where it makes it harder for people to cheat the system....vote once..that's it. Sorry if it bites the dems in the ass for the first election....i think it's worth it...not because it gives the repubs the advantage...because it produces a system that is harder to cheat.
If they are so concerned about fairness, why do they cheat Democracy by allowing the wealthy to buy our elections before we even enter the polling booths?
When Sheldon Adelson supports Newt Gingrich with a $10 million donation and I donate $100 to his opponent, which one of us is cheating?
I agree with you....i would much prefer that problem taken care of before providing voter ID.
The gnat in the soup is being strained out while the camel is eaten.
Voter fraud is incredibly low. I challenge you to find a single study that suggests that voter fraud has an impact on the fairness of elections the US. The argument that we need to make it harder to cheat seems to be irrelevant, at least in practical terms. If your argument is one of principle then allow me to test that principle with the following question: How many tax-payer dollars would you permit the government to spend in order to lower the voter fraud rate by, say 1/100,000 of a percentage point?
There are all kinds of examples of voter fraud.
http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2012/feb/06/brian-kemp/kemp-makes-case-voter-id-law/
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2Wzr4_cemD5UUtFclRjbl9QSTQ/edit
Does there exist the potential for an election to be close enough that something like voter fraud could have an effect in the future? Absolutely.
why wouldnt you want someone to provide some form of ID? I can't get a public library card without an ID but i can vote for the most important man that will control the US for the next 4 years without one? If not a license...some proof of the person who's voting (possibly something we could obtain for free to avoid poor people not getting a chance to vote).
If it benefited the dems i'd be saying the same exact thing.
Riiiiight!!!
You are parroting republican talking points. So you don't think there is any efforts at voter suppression?
LMFAO
Peace
Sure, there might be by some of the republicans. But i think it is the right thing to do...no matter who it benefits. Find some way to provide some form of ID for free and i'd be just as happy with that.
Lets do it after the election. So we have time to get a free option in place for the poor.
that works
If that is acceptable. You should say it. instead of spreading the republican talking point fallacy that there is fraud (there ain't) and that illegal immigrants are voting. They ain't. They are avoiding capture by staying away from authorities and government activities. Doesn't that make more sense.
Peace
http://www.politifact.com/georgia/statements/2012/feb/06/brian-kemp/kemp-makes-case-voter-id-law/
What is John23? Is that some religious reference?
Its the 23rd john at OWS is what it is.
Were you going to attack based on religious beliefs?
Have I attacked you for ANYTHING Johnnie? No!
Seems to me you expect an attack because you spend so much time attacking people who disagree with you! No attack
Just hoping you were a christian who believes that we will be judged by how we treat the least among us. You know "house the people livin on the street" shoe the people, with no shoes on their feet" "OOOH OH theres a solution. Do da do Do do do do"
Peace
"They exist because your repubs have taken advantage of the 9/11 attacks to pass them all! To create a "shock doctrine" mentality of fear. These republican constitutional threats exist because you have decided to pretend that the problem begins and ends with Pres Obama. You stay silent about the real roots of the problem. which just perpatuates it.
It's your fault and people like you."
Pretty sure that seems like an attack...an unjustified one because i'm not even a republican.
"You know "house the people livin on the street" shoe the people, with no shoes on their feet" "OOOH OH theres a solution. Do da do Do do do do"
Put down the crack pipe for a few days man...come back to reality.
I prefer to believe that I judge myself...to do what's right here and now...not because of a promised gift when I bite the dust some day.
I believe you are republican. I believe the repub pols have created our problems (with help of some spineless dem pols) And I believe republican supporters allow it by voting for them, excusing there acts, and/or giving them a pass.
This is political discussion. Opinions. Your comments are personal attacks. Perhaps you don't understand the difference. I'm just saying you support the people who screwed the economy. Your calling me names ("put down the crack pipe").
So no I'm not attacking you. Just expressing a strong opposing view and placing blame where it should be placed. With you!. You are engaging in horrible personal attacks. It's what you have done repeatedly. Thats why you expect me to attack your religious login name reference. I've never called you names or used vulgarity. That is unproductive. I much rather use facts. Then I know when other people start accusing me of being a crack head (and therefore run out of facts) I know I've won.
Isn't that how it goes?
support OWS. Vote out conservative schoolyard bully politicians.
Peace.
I'm still waiting for those facts you keep talking about. Please provide them again for me because i seem to have not read any of them (pretty sure that's because they haven't been posted anywhere). All i get in responses is "Vote out republican nutjobs! Support progressive policies! Support OWS!"....usually in reponse to me providing links to 20 different websites containing the facts that i'm trying to get into your head.
Please provide details of my "horrible personal attacks"....list them please..i'm very interested in seeing them.
You just told me to " drop the crack pipe".! That is not a political opinion! To suggest I'm a drug addict is offensive. I grew up in the projects of Brooklyn I've known many drug addicts. I've also engaged in viscous ranking sessions. So I assure you I can rip you to pieces. Bring you to tears. That is not my style anymore.
Not interested in your links. Because we can find anything we want on the internet. that don't make it true. If you can't argue your point of view that is your weakness, and your misfortune.
LINKS! We don't need no stinkin' links!
Besides you seem pretty hostile and unstable so I wouldn't trust your links. I've been warned about possible virus infections.
Facts: Repubs have watered down and delayed fin reform, Killed the public option,
prevented the closing of gitmo,
defeated the House dems NDAA repeal, killed dems jobs bill. refused to extend middle class tax cuts unless the wealthy tax cuts are extended as well. Have neglected to hold hearings against drone assassinations.
Why don't you give me a list of what the repubs have done to hurt the 99%?
Vote out anti LGBT politicians.
Peace
The repubs...They've created a police state and instilled fear into every person in america and perpetuated false notions of why people hate us around the world...which has directly stolen from the people via taxes to pay for ridiculous expenditures overseas and passing laws to justify them which is eroding our constitution at home....they waged unconstitutional undeclared wars under bush and increased the size of government when it was promised to shrink it. They created an expanding realistate bubble by allowing the Fed to artificially manipulate interest rates and push credit into a huge housing bubble that benefited the rich at the expense of the poor and then bailed them out when the financial institutions went bust and left the homeowners high and dry.
Now you give me a list of democratic things that have hurt the 99%
Spineless dems (not all. always just enough) have voted for all the repub right wing 1% plutocrat policies that you listed and that I have previously listed.
Ending glass steagle. Wars for oil, NDAA, evrything that is wrong could not have succeeded without some dems. voting against progressive principles.
We need more progressives and fewer conservatives (repub and dem)
Peace
And you grabbed a quote of mine that was a response to someone else. So I guess you aren't honest huh?
You can't play fair because you are a republican? Yes?
"You can't play fair because you are a republican? Yes?"
That seems like an attack...yes?
Where are my terrible personal attacks? Waiting for these still.
You just told me to drop the crack pipe.
That's the horrendous personal attack? You had it as a plural too...where are these other "attacks"?
I don't buy the republican talking points that there is some unseen fraud goin on. That is BS!
The effort is clearly an attempt to suppress dem voters like your boy PA repub Mike Turzai said.
You buy it because you are republican? Yes?
Elect progressives! Vote out conservatives. Vote early and often.;)
[Deleted]
"illegals"? that is a slur. Keep your slurs to yourself.
Your repub voter suppression laws are designed to keep minorities elderly and poor people from voting. They lean democratic.
An undocumented person does not vote. You gotta be a special kinda stupid to vote when you are trying to avoid the authorities.
Are you joking? Do you really believe that non sense.?
LMFAO
Support OWS. Vote out anti immigrant politicians
Peace!!
"illegals"? that is a slur. Keep your slurs to yourself.
also a contraction for someone in the US without right to be so
slurred words skip syllables
This is science. .... I was a mathematician...
If you were you wouldn't be calling something as subjective as politics to be science.
And he'd probably not call mathematics a science :p
I don't consider mathematics a science either. Mathematics is a tool of science to help describe our observations. It's the language science uses to communicate... its not science.
Indeed, it also doesn't use the scientific method.
From Democracy for America.
Win or lose in November, there's going to be a fight in December.
Republicans will try to extend the Bush tax cuts for the rich. They'll try to keep an unlimited flow of money going to the Defense Department. What's worse -- they're going to try to pay for it all by cutting Medicare and Social Security and by blocking any sort of spending on new jobs bills.
We can't let that happen.
Join Democracy for America and our friends at the Congressional Progressive Caucus and say "No!" to any budget that reduces the deficit on the backs of working families.
Republicans have dominated the debate about the deficit -- convincing media outlets across the country that Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security need to be slashed. They're wrong.
We need to stand up for America's seniors and working people with a plan that will close corporate tax loopholes, and ensure that millionaires pay their fair share.
Read the Congressional Progressive Caucus's resolution and sign on now as a citizen cosponsor.
Thank you for everything you do.
-Jim
Jim Dean, Chair Democracy for America
Find me a matching proposal from a Republic source and I will sign that one as well.
Or an Independent or a Green or whomever.
Despite many differences... they're both
bombing brown people in foreign countries
accepting Goldman Sachs money
signing the patriot act
and bailing out the banksters after deregulating their financial markets
But that's only if you research voting history in congress.
In my state my D's and R's both supported the repeal of Glass Steagall... supported the Iraq war... supported the patriot act... supported the bailouts... and so much more.
They are polarized on social issues; which are often the most emotional and hard to find common ground on. As far as foreign policy, economics, civil liberties, drug policy, capitol punishment, electoral system, prison system, etc. they are the same.
Let me know when they stop bombing foreign countries.
Let me know when they both stop bailing out fraudulent banks after bipartisan support to deregulate them.
They may be heavily different in some areas... for example healthcare.
but when it comes to corrupt monetary policy and bombs in foreign countries... they're both supporting it... patriot act style.
I'd love to see people organizing to push the Dems further left instead of pretending they are the same, we know they are not.
There was a time when more people showed up at GA's than at local party meetings. All politics are local. We just learned that voting alone is not enough. But actions alone are not enough, either.
Both parties may not be the same but they do share one disgust: both are corrupt.
Direct Democracy Now, the only election worth voting for. If people are deemed responsible enough to procreate without a middleman, ditto for voting on their own affairs. Anything else is complicity with corruption.
The reason we have a Republic is because you can nut trust the majority with minority rights. Witness the anti gay election in California recently. The one the Mormons bought.
You argue "we can not trust the majority with minority rights." Can we trust the minority with majority rights ? Look at the state of affairs that the 535 have give us. Indeed, the core tenent manifested on the front page of this very organization assails minority rule: The one thing we all have in common is that We Are The 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%.
At last a propaganda ploy I can belive in.
Add "lesser of two evils". Like the above it discourages voter turnout. Just what the greater evil needs to win. They don't talk like that. They talk about voting AGAINST rather than for.
I feel Both are scamming the people,for example obama gives the insurance companies the best deal of there life by forcing people to buying health insurance and the funny part the Rep do not like it what a joke when you people going to wake up
"wake up" You came to the wrong place for that.
Hmmm the two parties are not the same, but they are too similar on too many important issues. Maybe lots of well meaning members of those parties are different, but when it comes down to it, what have we had under Obama that has been drastically different from Bush? War, torture, lies, bank bailouts, corporate agenda, domestic spying, indefinite detention, whistleblower crackdowns, many things are worse now!
They want to discourage turnout, but the turnout that should come should be for OTHER PARTIES.
The only issue is economics. Trickle up or trickle down.
The Hegelian Dialectic explained. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IxnNWZu-Ak
They are in fact only cosmetically different. Both parties support the same neoliberal economic policies an the same imperialist foreign policies. One only pretends to have remorse about it after voting for it.
are you blind as a bat, tell me why fair pay for women don't matter.
"Still, the issue of workplace sex discrimination against women threatens to become a partisan issue in a presidential election year. Only a day before the attorneys made their announcement, the Paycheck Fairness Act went down on a procedural vote in the U.S. Senate. Democrats, under Senate rules, needed 60 votes to bring the proposed act to the floor. The procedural vote went along strict party lines, 52-47, with the two independent senators voting with Democrats and Sen. Mark Kirk, R-Ill., not voting,"
http://www.equities.com/news/news-headline-story?dt=2012-06-10&val=153378&cat=headline
Ron Paul? Did he vote for Dood-Frank?
Can you address agnosticnixie comment without the use of logical fallacies?
"neoliberal economic policies " were supported by the whole world not so long ago. Five years? But the economic crisis finally opened some eyes.
You can see the difference in things like where jobs come from. Whether economic stimulus comes from the top or the bottom.
This is what this election is about. Trickle down or trickle up.
No, neoliberal economic policies were not supported by the whole world. They were supported by the majority of the people in power. There was a ton of resistance to it throughout the world. Take a look at South America. And, Yes, the crisis opened some eyes, but not in regards to those who are still in power - they continue unabashedly to hold to their neo-liberal values.
And what you think that the elections may be about, and what will continue to happen in the real world are two very different things.
And by saying that the election is about "trickle down or trickle up" suggests that you are trying to tell the world that Obama is for trickle down, and Romney is for trickle up. And you attempt to do this by using vague and meaningless rhetoric. I'm not really impressed by this and don't adhere to one-liners that really are no different than, "Four legs good, two legs bad." For me, it is as simple as looking to the actions that politicians take to understand what they are all about.
If you think that Obama is about "trickle down" theories I have this bridge I want to sell you. If Obama was about trickle down theories then why would he appoint economic and banking advocates of the neo-liberal order to run his administration? If Obama was about trickle down theories then why did he sign KORUS-FTA? Perhaps you could explain how the CEO of GE, Jeffrey Immelt, is a trickle-down kind of guy, and why Obama appointed him to head up the "American Job's Council". You can start there to explain your vacuous rhetoric.
I think you got your trickles crossed. Jobs are created by demand. Demand come from those who spend their money on consumer goods. We are the job creators. Not the rich.
Just listen to what the candidates are saying. Money to the top or money to everyone else.
No, it's you who can't focus on the discussion at hand... and you certainly don't know how to answer questions either.
Obviously I don't understand what you guys mean by "neoliberal economic policies".
Well then go get a fucking education before you start spouting off like you know all of the answers!
Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth? Obviously not.
You were faking it really well, though. Had me fooled for a while.
You have yourself fooled just fine...
agnosticnixie, clearly has little ability to think as he can find no difference between the D's and R's, no matter the slow are welcome too
der... der.... der...
And clearly you have no ability to discuss the point he made about how the Ds and Rs both support the same neo-liberal economic policies.
So neo-liberal is your whole vocaluallary? No i got no problem finding a difference here's one that was in the news the other day why don'yt you tell me why it don't matter?
"Still, the issue of workplace sex discrimination against women threatens to become a partisan issue in a presidential election year. Only a day before the attorneys made their announcement, the Paycheck Fairness Act went down on a procedural vote in the U.S. Senate.
Democrats, under Senate rules, needed 60 votes to bring the proposed act to the floor. The procedural vote went along strict party lines, 52-47, with the two independent senators voting with Democrats and Sen. Mark Kirk, R-Ill., not voting,"
http://www.equities.com/news/news-headline-story?dt=2012-06-10&val=153378&cat=headline
No, it's not my whole vocabulary. That's just your attempt to use a straw man argument (misrepresentation of my argument) I'm simply pinning down one argument of where the two parties are the same... and you want to squirm around this pretty important fact, and turn the argument back to cultural war issues.
Sure there are differences in social issues between the two parties. I never argued as such. I argued that they both worship the same neo-liberal economic crap - and even worse, both parties have sworn allegiance to US Empire and its imperialist policies. And this takes precedence because it affects ALL of us - women, men, gays, minorities, workers, and on and on. So while it's great a Democrat is standing up to workplace sex discrimination, it sucks that this same Senator swore allegiance to empire and its imperialist policies abroad (which is bankrupting this country in more ways than just money). He also signed the NDAA and HR347 (both of which are clear violations of our constitutional rights. So, great he supports workplace equality...But he obviously doesn't give a flying fuck about our constitutional rights as a whole.
But go ahead and continue to play by their games. The cultural wars are a modern-day divide and conquer tactic, and consist of creating heated debates around such topics as gay marriage, abortion, gender rights, etc. Given the hostile and divided environment of politics we are seeing right now the point of the cultural wars and "disputes on such topics... is that they are not framed to be resolved. Their political function is to divide the citizenry while obscuring class differences and diverting the voters' attention from the social and economic concerns of the general populace [Empire and US imperialist policies that are impoverishing ALL of us!!] Cultural wars might seem an indication of strong political involvements. Actually they are a substitute. The notoriety they receive from the media and from politicians eager to take firm stands on non-substantive issues serves to distract attention and contribute to a cant (Monotonous talk filled with platitudes) politics of the inconsequential." (quoted from Democracy Incorporated, by Sheldon Wolin)
In other words, compared to the economic policies of an imperialist country (of which both parties support) the issue of workplace sex discrimination is inconsequential at this point because the imperialist policies are such a larger issue. But you don't wanna talk about that... do you?
Members of both parties breath air too, I'm pretty sure.
There are huge differences in real economic issues too like minimum wage and governance issues like Citizens United and public funding of elections but I wouldn't expect someone so easily fooled by the "their all the same crap" to understand the subtleties of such things.
Hey frf I agree with your comment - though I would suggest one substitution - Living Wage - we gotta shift the paradigm.
another way to say Living Wage is to say "cost of suppling labor" they understand the word cost, it is unfair for empolers to pay less than the cost of providing labor and expect the government to pick up the difference with food stamps and such, if you work the least you should be paid even if you're working part time should cover the cost of providing that labor, one would think they would want a living worker.
A living worker does not fit today's fortune 500 business model - they want robots or zombies - I think that there is a research team from some business schools and colleges down in Jamaica right now researching the zombie option.
The Chinese found that properly motivated "human" models were cheaper than robots:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/454/mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory
ok so the story details were made up but the overall truth of it has resulted in Apple investing in robots for Fox Conn
They will take your life and then your children and so forth for them and theirs forever, though inheritance and the ideal not only that money should make money, but also that it must be cared for with greater compassion than people, that’s why tax rates on money must be so low, money is very sensitive and fears that you might not like it, if you don’t treat it “special”.. So let the working stiffs pay all the taxes, after all they “need” all that crap, like food and healthcare.
solutions not jobs
99% inheritance tax now
Like, I said... I guess you don't want to talk about what I wrote above, and instead would rather use a straw man argument to deflect attention, and then end it with an ad hominem in the suggestion that I'm somehow stupid because I am so "easily fooled". When the fact of the matter is that I wrote above how the Dems and Reps aren't the same in many regards, but are the same in that they both have sworn allegiance to the US empire and imperialist policies.
Once you convince me somebody other than Obama or Romney will be President next year, then I'll consider such things till then I would think looking at the differences to be more useful to ensure the wrong one don't end up in the White House. The only straw man in the room is where you claim that somehow that fact they may or may not do as you say does nothing to neglect the very real differences.
So lay it out for me how does anybody beside one of these two pick the next justice for the SCOTUS?
Like I said, I guess you would rather avoid talking about what I wrote above. It's understandable... nobody really wants to talk about the economic policies of an imperialist country of which both parties adhere to. They want to blather on about this idea that America is still a democracy. Good luck with that.
What I'm saying is till you show me the difference what's the point? if you can't either show there is a difference in policy between the two or show that one one of them will not be President then what's the point? If your point is we should just "stay out of it" because their all the same, at least tell me how that helps anyone, you are the one who refuses to answer any questions or discuss the subject.
Will either Obama or Romney stop the US empire, and end imperialist policies abroad? Are either of them even talking about it?
That's my point! It's been the same point I made in my very first comment to you - a point in which you seem to be incapable of comprehending...
OK now the question is does your point, make a point? the second part requires that if they are the same here, then it only mattersa if you can bulid the case that one of them will not become Presiodent next year, once you convince me that you can assure me that neither will become president then you will actually have a point worth talking about, so tell me how does one of these two not become President?
Just answer the question. Can you do that?
And to suggest that there is no point in pointing out that this country is an Empire (which both parties subscribe to, and don't talk about, and which Obama has expanded) and that the bi-partisan imperialist foreign policies have not only killed hundreds of thousands of people abroad... but is also impoverishing and bankrupting this country, morally and fiscally, is just plain dishonest.
Should women on roofing crews make the same amount as the men?
I knew a woman who should make twice what most men do.
How many square could she lay in a day?
If federal America can be diagnosed with bi-polar disorder, should it be removed from civic service?
Occupy exposes income inequality to the people, stands against the corrupt elite, wants 1% bankers to go to jail, etc. From all that Occupy has done, it stands to reason that Occupy does not have the best interests of the 1% at heart. Yet, here we have a staunch opinion of a democrat party supporter, accusing Occupy of spreading propaganda ploys on behalf of the 1%. Does anybody else notice a logic fail here?
Yes, there is a huge logic fail here. What I am a supporter of is anyone who can defeat the 1% party. I don't care what they call themselves.
It is unfortunate that we can't always vote FOR someone. But until we get some changes we have to vote AGAINST the 1%. And all they have to do is get you to not vote against them. They will do fine without your vote as long as you don't vote against them. I am sorry this is so but it is the reality.
And no, this is far from the only "spreading propaganda ploys on behalf of the 1%.". I got slammed every time I showed up at the Occupy site and I get slammed with it here. The 1% has the best propagandists in the history of the world and tons of them and the best tool ever. Television. It is very hard not to be taken in by it. But there is one litmus test. Who benefits?
So the Occupy site is full of 1% propagandists? Okay, I find that hard to believe, but if it is true, where is your litmus test evidence? How is the occupy site benefiting? Is the 1% party secretly funding them? LOL.
Not close to full of. Maybe 50%.
Here is your litmus test. If you are giving people reasons to NOT vote against the 1% then you are helping the 1%. They have to have low voter turnout to win. They always have. If every American voted they could never get in power. They know that. No secret.
There is evidence of new changes making it harder for everyone to vote. That's not up for debate; it's fact.
It's in the interest of the big money'd to discourage voting, for sure.
If every American voted they could never get in power
I am a simple peon in this nation. I think like a simple peon and I represent their attitudes.
I would love it if everybody voted. America has one of the most apathetic population's in the world. If every disenfranchised person voted, the R's would not win and we would have a strong 3rd party vote to move the democrats left.
But you won't succeed in getting more people to turn out to vote with a high and mighty attitude like yours. Trust me, us simple apathetic peons hate being called idiots and being shamed for helping R's if we don't vote your way. I'm not a lifelong activist like many people on this site seem to be. I have only voted a couple of times before. I have been more than guilty of feeling like what is the point - my vote does not matter at all. I do want to care though, and it is why I come here, but I can understand why people say fuck it when they run into people like you ---- who needs the hassle of dealing with people who like to twist arms. People get turned off by manipulative tactics like -- wasting your vote you idiot lemming , shame on you for helping the other guys, etc.
If you really care about people voting, then you need to respect the choices of others. Telling the peons how you would vote and suggesting others consider your reasoning is fine - but cut out the guilt, fear, and shame tactics.
For example, you could have made this thread much better. Say at the beginning your aim is not to control the votes of others, but you want to express your opinion, and, most importantly, end with a reminder that you want people to vote even if they disagree with you. Make their vote count no matter what - do you get my drift? Make people's vote count no matter what......Average people like myself do not like the ugly nature of politics and want nothing to do with this nonsense - who needs the hassle. I am a simple peon and I've got plenty of other things to do with my time.
Sorry, I am socially challenged. Tact has never been a strong point. I appreciate your civil response.
There is no shame in being mislead. I am acutely aware of it and it still gets me. The problem is there are not enough hours in the day. You have to trust someone. And sometimes they are wrong.
This problem is acute for the young. The first time a bartender asks you what beer you want. You have to form opinions based on very little data.
I recently examined my anti-union position and realized it was based on nothing I could remember. Parents? Peer pressure?
I have been living in this crap for thirty years. The American worker has not had a raise in that long.Yet, his labor has created great wealth.
My page on that. https://www.facebook.com/WarOnWages
So if my passion seems rude I am sorry but this election scares the shit out of me. Dear God, enough already. We have some who finally are seeing through that trickle down crap and I really don't want to go back to that. It was like the dark ages.
Thanks for the sincere response. I feel your pain and frustration at the way things have soured in this country and the dark road ahead. And I share them. Who knows for certain, you may be right in that we should think of the democrats as different, or you could simply be misled yourself, misled into supporting a party who will not address the problems and are only playing lip-service. One thing I do know is this - people are far more willing to hear opinions expressed by those who allow (trust) people to form their own opinions.
This is a left movement geared toward greater equality for all, equal rights, equal opportunities, more equal income, etc. This movement is against liberty. I know that sounds silly, but it is true. Equality and Liberty are opposing forces. The movement is not against the liberty to life and happiness (we all want that), but it is against the liberty to rise to the arrogance of an aristocrat or a plutocrat, it is against the liberty of the arrogance to control the people's government with money, the liberty to corrupt our political process, to put profits before people.
There are those on the right who think that liberty means all of those latter things, that they are free to pursue happiness by whatever means necessary and this becomes justification for the ends.
Against that backdrop of equality vs liberty is the context by which I weigh and develop my opinions - what is at the heart of the matter is not the democratic party or the republican party (both lean too far toward immorally unbound liberty and equality suffers as a result), at the heart of the matter is the need for average people to rise up and say "NO", the means do not justify the ends. A moral authority of massive numbers that tells these cold-hearted abusers of liberty (the aristocrats and plutocrats) that equality in society matters. We are all created equal and we want our country back !!!
Well said. Too many think that liberty means they can smoke dope. But what it really means is the liberty of Koch Boys to pollute your air. The liberty to fleece the fools by selling them things they don't understand.
I want the liberty to sign a contract without needing a lawyer and an accountant. That is part of Dodd-Frank. One party passed this. The other wants to repeal it.
I definitely recognize that all too well that both parties look to be on the right. The radical right has moved the center point so far that moderate conservative looks like the center.
Politicians rightly fear being "anti-war" and such. They have to represent the voters, not the people or they will represent no one.
If the right votes AGAINST them because they are NOT war mongers and the left does NOT vote for them because they ARE war mongers then they will move to the right. The left shoots themselves in the foot.
well said.
And we CAN move the dems (& the country) back to the left. WE have to make it popular/acceptable to BE anti war, Cutting the military budget has to be positive. Changing the endless "war on terror" mentality must be popular if we are to undo the conservative policies (that some dems caved in to) like the patriot act, NDAA, warrentless wiretaps.
But if don't protest a for these progressive policies and insist our politicians vote this way including voting against right wingers who proudly trumpet these 1% plutocrat policies we are lost.
Dems (and the country) will not swing back left if we don't show support for pols who speak up for progressive agenda.
Peace
As you just did.
Look at what your precious obama has done to further that agenda....wake up....take off the dem goggles and look at whats staring you directly in the face.
http://stpeteforpeace.org/obama.html
Oh stop with the anti Obama partisan silliness. He has been very disappointing only in that he has failed at getting the repubs to pass his economic recovery agenda, jobs programs, green tech jobs. He hasn't gotten his public option passed the selfish right wingers, He hasn't gotten conservative war mongers to let him close Gitmo, stop NDAA, He hasn't gotten repub 1% tools to pass the stronger fin reform, and hasn't stopped the repub plutocrat puppets from delaying the weak fin reform from being implemented.
President Obama is disappointing because he hasn't done enough.! Repubs have prevented more from being done. They have misused the filibuster, and have admittedly worked against anything that might help the 99%. It's traitorous!
I never expected the President to walk in, hit a switch and magically undo all the damaging right wing policies that repubs have implemented (with some spineless dems)
I'm smart enough to know it will take years to fix the great recession repubs created, and years to get good jobs at living wages back (that we lost because of right wing plutocratic policies) And years to step back from the fear mongering, endless war on terror atmosphere repubs created when they took advantage of the 9/11 attacks.
Solution? Elect progressives, Vote out conservative 1% plutocrat tools!
Peace!
Once again...you're not clicking on my links. I forgot i wasn't talking to you.
LINKS!!! We don't need no stinkin' links!
Elect progressives!! It's the only way.
Peace!
You sound like Bill O'liely
"History! We don't need a history lesson! I don't need to see any factual information! I'm perfectly happy making stuff up in my head!"
Do what you like. It certainly sounds like you are makin things up in your head.!
I'm ok with then facts.
Vote out pro NDAA politicians!
Peace
if only, I were so clever
If you vote for the democratic party, it is not a wasted vote. If you vote for a third party, it is not a wasted vote. If you don't vote, that is a wasted vote.
If you don't vote for the lesser of the two evils the next time your choices will be worse. That encourages even more evil.
You're hopeless man. No one is expected to, much less encouraged to, have a dissenting opinion against the high and mighty anymore. No wonder this country sucks. Think about that for a while before you reply back to me....
Dammit, Frank Luntz would kick my ass for putting this wrong. What I meant to say is that you must vote against the greater of the two evils.
Like weeding the garden. Get the weeds out first.
Your beyond shameless. Listen to yourself, you actually sound like you admire that piece of shit, Luntz, for his political savvy at manipulating people and wording things ....just so.....they get people to react a certain way.....shameless man.....tsk...tsk.
I do admire his skill. But what he does is pure evil.
Calling the health care bill "Government run healthcare" is completely deceptive. But it worked. It moved the polls ten percent.
I got a feeling is is just a propaganda hit man. Would be happy to work for anyone. Just doing his job. When Obama mentioned his name he looked like a puppy about to pee on himself. ;p
I admire a writer's skill to deceive me in order to surprise me with a twist in the story and the only impact to a person's life is entertainment value. The skill is not admirable when used in the real world to deceive the public into believing a false narrative that can effect the outcomes of lives. If Luntz wants to trick people with his cleverness, let him join the entertainment biz.
Don't be Jaded! The pendulum WILL swing back to the left. History proves this.
This movement (or some progressive movement) must grow and pressure all pols for progressive solution. For real election reform,direct dem. money out of compaigns, and much more
The internet might provide for a faster pendulum swing. That would be good because these kinda movements have taken decades to produce any solutions.
We have to stay strong, Acknowledge progress and support those pushing it. be patient, Don't turn on each other.
Peace & Solidarity.
Fuck you and the democratic pony you rode in on. I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to limpdick. I'm sick of you democratic control freaks who only want to go around fear mongering and sucking each others dicks. I'm sick and tired of being nice and civil to people who can't stop using fear, guilt, and shame in order to manipulate people to conform to their bullshit opinions. The tactics HempDick is using are the same bullshit methods the right use against poor people - to shame them into thinking it is their fault that they are not rich and convincing them with their ugly tactics into doing the wrong thing. Limpdick just uses a shame of helping the evil guys win (at the same time he's telling you to help the less evil guys, you notice that part). Using fear, guilt, and shame to manipulate people is wrong. Fuck everyone of you democrats and republicans, I hope you all burn in hell.
I haven't beencondescending at all. You on the other hand continue the offensive vulgarity.
You don't seem interested in supporting the 99%. You come just to put people down? Yes?
Let off some steam? Vent? You like to put people down to lift yourself up?
Very bad Karma. Embrace the Love. Be the Love. You can heal if you letthe love flow through you.
Try it! try not to ridicule these deep meaningful concepts. They will be atthecenter of OWS success.
Imagine if all people (even plutocrats) could adopt these practices we would all be better off.
OOOOOOOHM!
elect progressives! Vote out dems and repubs who vote for right wing policies!
Who the fuck are you? The captain of the love boat. It ain't my fault your are so in love with yourself you can't even recognize your own condescending attitude. Now run along to your bedroom and play 'love' with your Obama dolls -- freak !!
Yeah man.
Cool
Peace
LOL.
You have every right to express your anger anyway you like. I have done the same. Here on this forum, growin up, and in my adult life in the real world as well. It's actually been my 1st approach in the past.
BTW my efforts to ctrl my horrible temper only began in earnest about 14 yrs ago when shortly after my divorce, my 4 yr old daughter asked me "why are you always angry, daddy?" I always knew I had a bad temper but that shit goes right to your heart man.
So I may seem condescending but I really am not offended. Rather I'm just pointing out the offensiveness I perceive and hoping for a different approach.
I'm cool. Your cool.
Hang in there
Peace.
Yep, I hear you. Children have a way of reaching those guarded places inside us that we don't let others go, even ourselves.
And I don't know about you, but those damn puppy dogs get me every time too.
Glad we cool.
You too.
You have every right to angry, and express it. We are all justified. "if you aren't outraged, you ain't paying attention".
If you "lose it" and choose to express your anger with offensiveness, insults, vulgarity. you run the risk of 1- being dismissed as unable to verbalize a substantive argument supporting your position. 2- having the other commenter claim they've hit a nerve and offer that as proof they are correct.
In so far as voting.: I do believe D & R have serious corruption/spinelessness problems, but I do think they are vastly different. I think further that we have a better chance of implementing progressive solutions with the d's.
I'm in a deep blue state so I have the luxury of being able to vote for a 3rd party without much fear I will help the R's who proudly trumpet the conservative policies of the 1% plutocrats. I heard Chomsky say if he were in a swing state he would vote Obama. However important that is.
He also said he IS voting for Klein (Green party) but he knows Klein will not win. Thats fine. In fact voting for a 3rd party like you will be and I have, can move the d's & R's one way or the other.
I support your choice. I support your right to get angry and express it. I've been there (and sometimes revisit that dark place). I think though that you will spend more time discussing the issues you care about (and not about anger and offensiveness) if you control your emotions. If not your emotions will control you and you will be trapped in an ever escalation of hostility. It's bad Karma. Unproductive.
Peace
It's a fine line between expressing outrage and controlling emotions. I cross that line only when I feel I've made one hell of an effort to be civil and have no other recourse left to me. There are times in this life when we should be furious and not allow ourselves to be placated by 'pretty' talk.
Risks? I run risks of being viewed in any manner of ways no matter how I respond to another - too gentle, too mean, too soft, too funny, too stupid, too boring,......too condescending, etc. You are narrowly focusing me into some stereotypical box. I am a whole lot more than you can hope to understand from a few interchanges on an anonymous forum (this is a damned if you do and damned if you don't world). So while I will take your advice to heart, and agree that it is best in most situations not to allow emotions to overtake you. Understand, I believe there are occasions where emotions should be at the forefront of the discussion.
I will wear my heart on my sleeve, warts and all, when I feel it is the best thing to do. You are not the first person to cover this ground with me, to point out my personality characteristics that can be considered negative attributes by some and positive by others - if you and I are looking at the same picture, but see two different pictures, whose picture is better than the other's picture? Best to learn a little bit from both pictures.
Using vulgarity is part of my everyday underclass experience growing up. I'll be more than happy to tone the cussing down when I encounter mutual respect, otherwise, I will eat my hot dog with mustard on it anytime I like it. And sometimes I may tease you with it, now that I know it bothers you. Because that would be a sign of affection and I like you enough to tease you...you condescending asshole.
Peace.
People should vote their interests. Their conscious! I hope they consider the issues!. They should support policies that benefit them!
I believe our problems are rooted in the right wing policies that benefit the 1% plutocrats. I believe the only way out is implementing progressive policies that will benefit the 99%
I believe that republicans proudly trumpet the right wing policies that benefit the 1% plutocrats.
I believe further that the dems (and the country) have moved riight in the last 30 years and they have betrayed the progressives. I also believe the progressives in this country have become demoralized and apathetic in the last 30 years. This is a big reason why the right wing plutocrats who amassed so much power.
Finally I believe that there are always some (not all) spineless dems who cave in and vote for right wing 1% plutocrat policies. This is more disappointing to me. I expect more from them. Repubs are too far gone.
Some dems are not spineless. more dems with spines can turn the tide. We the people can do anything, certainly we can drag the dems back to the left and make them serve the 99%.
That is what I believe. I think you support repubs so I guess we disagree. Thats ok. I'm not gonna call you names, or try to silence you with the schoolyard bullying tactics of your candidate Romney.
But if you encourage progressive OWS supporters not to vote because "the parties arethe same" I will challenge that fallacy.
Sorry.
What do you think?
Peace
Look, you and I are in agreement for the most part. I would love it if everybody voted and I encourage everybody to vote their conscious - agreed.
My gripe was with the other guy. I don't care if he expresses his opinion and shares his beliefs. But I do care how he expresses it. The following message burns me to no end and I know it burns other people---- "If you don't vote for the lesser of the two evils the next time your choices will be worse. That encourages even more evil."
When someone implies to me that I am stupid person being duped into supporting evil because my beliefs are different (I will support a third party candidate), you can bet your last dollar that I am going to get angry and give them a piece of my mind. I have tried to ignore it for the most part, but I have simply had enough.
As I told the other guy, I am not a lifelong political activist. I am probably best described as one of the former apathetic crowd. I believe many apathetic people, like myself, want to care and want to think they can make a difference. But, seriously, who needs this sort of bullshit. I have plenty of problems to deal with on a daily basis - like how I am going to make rent this month and keep a roof over my head, etc. I am simply not going to put up with jack asses like Hemp Twister anymore. If he really cares about voting and getting people to participate, he will heed some heartfelt advice and be wise enough to reconsider his strategies for dealing with people.
If he or anybody else continues with messages like that, I will continue to be angry and respond accordingly. I will continue to be jaded (tired and weary) until some justice prevails in this country and in this world. People die senseless violent deaths everyday for the military industry complex. People go without basic accommodations everyday to support the luxurious lifestyles of the rich and famous.
People have choices to make, and the last thing I want is for people to check out and become more apathetic because they don't want to deal with jack asses like Hemp Twister.
I am often accused of being too sensitive. Which is true - I am not the thickest skinned person in the world and things don't roll off me like water. Telling me I am a dupe supporting evil is off limits. It is a completely unjust and unfair assessment of my moral being. Enough !
Sorry to go off on you - your a decent guy. Peace.
It is not unusual for you to be uncomfortable with the concepts of love. because you have lived in the world of hate for so long.
It is better on the light side. There is hope here.
I love myself just fine. And I love you JC. You ARE lovable. Put away your hateful ways. They eat at you. They hold you back. You will do great things when love has become your partner. When you leave the hate behind.
Conservatives are hateful of : immigrants, womens rights, minorities, LGBT, poor people. Don't be that. Be liberal & progressive! We are inclusive, of all people, all opinions. We won't try to change your views using hateful schoolyard bullying tactics like your candidate Romney.
You can do it. take the leap of faith. Come with us. Go to the light.
The light is good.
Elect progressives! Vote out conservative plutocrat tools!
PEACE, LOVE, & UNDERSTANDING
Okay, your getting really weird now. All I really want is for you people to encourage people to vote without the 'must vote against the repubs or you are guilty of treason and blah blah blah' shenanigans. Let people make up their own minds without the hyped up theatrics. Is that so much to ask?
I have done nothing wrong. I have nothing to apologize for. I have been respectful and honorable. I want to help you deal with all the hatred and anger that is consuming you.
You call someone limpdick and ask ME to apologize? I guess you are just joking. How do you know what kind of dick he has? Do you know him better than you are letting on? If you do and you want to resolve his limp dick you can always use viagra!
Support OWS! Vote out anti LGBT politicians.
PEACE.
uh......a condescending attitude is not really all that respectable.......thought I might.....you know.......point that out to you.
Joking about Limpdick Luntz? Of course man, of course I was joking......Man I love you guys. I love all you damn hopelessly devoted Obama apologists so much it makes my limp go dick. Now, Let's all gather around the viagra circle and sing kumbaya together
Don't be afraid. You can let go of the hatred! You will heal when you let love wash over you and use unoffensive words to interact with your fellow earthlings.
The vulgarity is poison. It prevents real substantive discussion. Prevents solutions. You cannot convince anyone to support your position, or grow this great progressive movement if you are filled with hostility and anger.
We need each other, We must treat each other as if we will be working together for many years to come. It will take that long to implement the progressive policies that will help the 99%.
Peace, Love, & Understanding.
Okay, apologize to me for telling me not to be jaded about Limpdick Luntz and I'll call it even - no hard feelings.
I'm atheist. Oops!
Your insults, vulgarity = weak positions. I hope you realize that. And you should know that bully tactics only work if you can follow through with physical violence. doesn't work virtually on -line. Do you get that?
Anyway I don't see any real fear tactics being used against you. But if you are scared let me assure you everything will be fine. You just have to turn away from the dark side.
A great man said "fear leads to anger (see, your very angry) Anger leads to hate (you certainly seem hateful) And hate leads to suffering." If there is anything OWS is about it's less suffering.
So put the offensiveness aside. Love your neighbor and all will be good in the world.
Elect progressives, Vote out conservative.
Peace, Love, & may the force be with you.
I am angry and you are a condescending prick. Now tell me genius, when was the last time I cried and why, and then you might know something about me. My vulgarity has nothing to do with the meaning and intent of my thoughts. If I say I love my wife to fucking death, who are you to judge from that extra word how much I actually love my wife.
You are going to assure me? And how will you do that, by quoting anonymous great men. Yeah, that really helped a whole fucking lot dude. You're freaking amazing at this whole reassurance thingy.
Now, about this falling to the dark side. Who is trying to get people to vote for the lesser evil?....hint: it ain't me.
Holy crap JC. Feeling better now? : )
No. I'm still quite pissed off...thanks for asking though :-P
tell us how you really feel.
I hate evil profit driven, earth destroying corporations !!!
Well, that was therapeutic.
And this time when the pendulum swings - perhaps we can find a solid good and healthy balance point - and stay there.
That is tricky.
But if some sort of real Direct democracy emerges where the vast majority of the people are informed and voting we may achieve what has never been achieved, stopping that G$d damned pendulum on the left side.
A strong, growing, sustained progressive movement along with new tech (internet) can be the right recipe.
Peace & Solidarity
you are funny. most people here are witless. but your posts are enjoyable.
I turn into a witty hulk when I get angry. I can't control it...really.
Making a big show of where they disagree often draws attention away from the screwing up this country where they do, for instance, the majority of both sides favors free trade, check these out
Free Trade: The Great Prosperity Machine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfE2HO8p3FE
Now, what Free Trade really does over time, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6AmJCpc93g
And thats both parties supporting it.
There are plenty of examples of this. But that is no reason to put the the 1% party back in power. And pointing these things out during elections plays right into the hands of the 1%.
I can take this to my current Tea Party Representative and he will laugh in my face. Figuratively. He does not have the guts to do it for real. But the lady he beat would listen to me. I think that is a huge difference.
Both parties have two priorities. Staying in power and finding new ways to have more of it. The engine that drives both of those priorities is money.
Whether you want to tippy toe on some moral high ground from the top of either platform is irrelevant to these parties. You are seen as a pawn.
Does that mean that either parties platforms are completely wrong? Far from it. A person who truly thinks will see value and disgust in both.
Yes, it is that simple. Who pays the money and who gets the money. 1% or 99%.
Tax cuts for the rich. Never a need to pay for this.
Cut spending on entitlements. Which frees up more money for tax cuts for the rich.
Smaller government = fire teachers and such. Deregulation to get the cancer victims off the Koch boys backs. Get rid of the IRS and regulators who can catch them cheating.
Or make the rich pay their share and support the people who actually drive the economy and job creation through good old consumer spending.
Is that hard to understand?
The way you compose sentences, you are difficult to understand. Also, your condescending approach toward me and this discussion shows that I would be wasting my time having a dialogue with you. Enjoy your day.
Both parties are not the same.
There are different oligarchs behind them.
Soros versus Koch.
One of those expects a return on his investment in politics.
The other supports raising his own taxes.
May not be identical twins but are on the same payroll.Also bow to the same master.
Equal pay for women. But oyu are not a woman? Gay rights. But you are not gay. Health care? Student loans? GM? And on and on and on.
I would not divide on social issues . It is obvious that they each have a brand x for everybody.They both are rock solid on the status quo.Once in a great while only when forced do they throw a bone the peoples way.
How about this bill? Same on this one?
Bring Jobs Home Act - Amends the Internal Revenue Code to: (1) grant business taxpayers a tax credit for up to 20% of insourcing expenses incurred for eliminating a business located outside the United States and relocating it within the United States, and (2) deny a tax deduction for outsourcing expenses incurred in relocating a U.S. business outside the United States. Requires an increase in the taxpayer's employment of full-time employees in the United States in order to claim the tax credit for insourcing expenses.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/s2884
Sounds like a start.
But not both parties.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Big $ shows up, We the People don't!
Of course it is a "Propaganda Ploy," you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
Put Nader up and i will vote.Put any repub or dem and I am going to spend my time riding instead.
Think of all the lives, homes and treasure would have been saved if people didn't think like you in 2000, 2004 and 2010 with so many destructive and costly RepubliCon policies avoided. What selfish idiots people like you are!
The primary and only difference that really matter much is economics!
It is all about who pays and who gets the money. One side is Robin Hood economics. Take from the rich to pay the poor. The other side is Prince John economics. Take from the poor to give to Prince John.
The way to get the economy going is take from the poor(expand the base) and give to the rich(tax cuts fir the rich),
or get more from the rich(raise taxes, new higher brackets and marginal rates) and feed the bottom of the economy(invest in the people).
Money trickles up. Not down. Consumers create jobs not hedge funds. Brilliant people are born poor. Other, smarter countries educate these folks to the highest level they can advance. We try to suck every last dollar out of them. Other countries invest in alt energy and sit on their oil while we want to "Drill, Baby drill."
These are the basic differences between the parties. Both sides get money from the 1%. What choice do they have? Many legislators have to spend half their time raising money for the next campaign. I have not heard any who like doing this. If you don't want your politicians taking money from the corporations then you have to provide the money. But you don't want to do that, do you?
How about civil rights? Women's pay. Gay rights. The Dreamers? Environment. Bank regulations?
I can think of two big hits on the fat cats. $500,000,000 subsidies for Medicare Advantage. Not chump change.
And taking the student loans out of the bakers hands.
Extending unemployment. This one hurt the economy.
Judging by the number of comments and your point score, you might want to see if a certain repeating number sequence has appeared under your scalp.
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Surprisingly or not, other people in the world have noticed that they are not alike in all things. One party is particularly nasty and embarrassing, even on a world level.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/americans-right-to-vote-under-siege-20120720-22fft.html
Even Australians know they are not the same.
Voter suppression is being done by only one party.
Thank you! Keep that up!! More truth and obvious facts are needed on this board, for some strange reason!!!
The (R)epelican'ts!!!
Embarrassing America since Richard Nixon, and damn proud of it.
Who else want's to rename an ocean for Reagan.
Missed the ocean named after Raygun, would not doubt it, though.
And now they (RepubliCons and NRA Con-men) drag America onto the Gong Show stage and through the sewers with their Neanderthal gun laws and 24/7/365 (every city) RW hate speech propaganda, and the ensuing domestic terror (Hillbilly Taliban) attacks!!
Get out the Vote! Stay on top of Voter suppression! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Yep, the Reagan Sea.
They really are trying to do that.
http://fosterfriess.com/campfire-blog/2012/07/19/congressman-tries-to-name-part-of-ocean-after-reagan/
There is no end to what the (R)epelican'ts will try and do.
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Obama or Romney...YOU are SCREWED!!!
One wants to raise your taxes to give himself a cut. If he buys the business you work for and fires you he wants to give you some tuff love and make you go to the church and beg for food.
One is an absolute disaster. The other does some stuff you don't like.
To the "Both parties are the same" crowd:
Welcome to the REAL world!!!
Perfection does NOT exist.
Here there is only really fucking bad, with no hope (Cons) and majorly flawed, mostly due to a fickle, unsupportive base, with hope (Dems).
We start turning out like Big $ and get the money out of politics and government, we'll make vast improvements. BUT remember, no matter how good we make things, there will always be FLAWS for you nit-pickers to whine about! ALWAYS!!!!"
They don't realize (or they are Zombies) that it was and is their abandonment of our political system that allowed Big $ to take it over. The facts that we have the most $-exploited political system and the worlds lowest Voter turnout completely evades them. It has to be on purpose!!! or BLIND PREJUDICE!!!
I agree with a lot you say,,except that it wasn't the abandonment of our political system that allowed big money to take over,,,this goes way back to the 1940's my friend! This was planned a long time ago!.. George Orwell wrote 1984 in 1948....he was friends with Huxley who wrote brave new world...they both knew what was going to happen, or what the agenda was way back in the 40's,,,it originated with a Rothschild based secret group who they had access to...but didn't back! They wrote to expose and warn! You need to do some research on how and why this is all coming down! Don't wait until they throw you in a FEMA camp!! There are a lot of people on here who just shoot from the hip and go off half cocked without having researched, read, delved into, or really care for that matter...Perfection does not exist? Oh really? gee I didn't know that! But that's what those at the top think...so your close! they want a perfect new world order,,,, according to their definition of perfect!
The abandonment was encouraged, and still is.
Very well said. Reality sucks.
Thanx. Use at will.
We never get to choose between the perfect and the near perfect. My spouse is not perfect. ;p
I will take our Dem/Lib/Prog imperfections over their Big $/PTB/Con Wage-Slavery, endless war, plutocracy! Always!!
(Excerpt) "The system is flawed because Big $ controls it! We the People have ceded it to them by encouraged abandonment, neglect and ignorance!!!
"No, We the People "aren't aware." Learning that "nothing works" and Voting "makes no difference" is the brainwash swill Big $ wants us to believe! Is this your naivete or deception? Either way it's DEAD WRONG!!
"Orwell's "Newspeak" and "Doublethink" are in full operation.
"Get out the Vote, people!! If it didn't matter, these bastards wouldn't be trying soooo fucking hard to suppress it!! And they will stop at nothing!!!"
People need to pay more attention to congress. Everyone is making a big deal about who the president is and pay little attention to their congressmen.
For example this year in my state we have R Deb Fischer vs D Bob Kerrey
Bob Kerrey voted to repeal Glass Steagal and he supported the war in Iraq.
Deb Fischer supported both of those but was not in a position to vote.
Deb Fischer and Bob Kerrey are a fail/fail situation. Once again money in politics has duped people into voting for corporate shills.
Just like in 2008, money in politics got Democrats to support a pro-war and pro-patriot act democrat instead of the only democrat running that actually tried to impeach Bush for his crimes.
Money in politics is the problem. We need to stop playing the stupid partisan politics game and realize the money buying politicians is the problem. The system is broken and people aren't paying attention to voting history or who people really work for.
Good points. The political mind control has been so strong for so long that many, especially on this forum, can't type a single paragraph without mentioning one or both major political parties.
We are conditioned to think politically inside the box. It's actually more of a slender tube where our thinking is limited to traveling in a single dimension, either right or left. There is more than one dimension of travel, more colors than just red and blue. Limited minds produce limited results.
"Money in politics is the problem." Dead solid analysis.
"voted to repeal Glass Steagal and he supported the war in Iraq." Two of the biggest scams in history. I took an economic collapse to get people to start questioning the supply side BS. The whole world bought into this scam.
Another "argument" is the "Lesser of two evils."
Everything [every single thing] is a "lesser evil!" Claiming otherwise is delusional and/or misleading.
Cons are a Citizens United dark money shit load worse than Dems. What many disenchanted or newbies are bemoaning is a government/political system that we have neglected. It's been picked up by the 1% (PTB) via their RepubliCon followers. All we have to do is turnout the vote [like they do] and we can clobber them with democracy; the weapon our forefathers left us for this very tyranny! Ignoring this for "alternatives" is sabotage, espionage, or just fucking stupid!
Wake up, butter cups! This is Class War! and we're losing!!
Of course it is, you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
The 1% is one party. Always has been. Anything that keeps you from voting for the OTHER party is a win for them.
One party is at least somewhat responsive to you. The other says fuck you and feed you minnows. What is so hard to understand about this?
if i have to vote the dems are usually somewhat better than the republicans but not much - i think you have twisted up one too many. can you spell out the differences - they are all pretty minor - count the dead for starters. or maybe the deported! you did see what i wrote didn't you - count the dead before you go into some affordable care act mantra - count the dead before you tell me how my 25 yr old can stay on my plan.
Should we go through the list of changes this country needs, that neither corporate party will do?
I'll bite. Now you got my curiosity up.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Big $ shows up, We the People don't!
Of course it is a "Propaganda Ploy," you'd have to be blind, deaf, or live in a cave, to believe Cons and Dems are the same. Not even the RW Zombies and RepubliCon Propagandists who work night and day advocating this falsity are dumb enough to actually believe it. Their goal is to discourage the turnout (LIKE THEY DID IN 2010).
But there is one more (Both-Same) option which is only found on our Left side: Prejudice. Purists and Perfectionists (who have no candidates because Perfection does not exist) who refuse to consider the vast and important differences between Cons and Dems because they made their stubborn minds up over one or two flaws. OR over a "Political System" that is in massive disrepair because of a lack of maintenance and an abundance of neglect! Making their desertion of our Political System a self-fulfilling prophecy and a Surrender!
This would all be perfectly fine (Who Needs Narrow-Minded dunderheaded bigots anyway!) except we all have to suffer the consequences of their blind Prejudice (ie. 2010 TeaBag takeover)!!!
Everybody needs to do their Homework: http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/homework.html?feed=364336&article=10248139
Record numbers are leaving both parties because they are finally waking up.
Hence the establishments newfound desire to start regulating internet speech. Its no coincidence.
If I've said it once, I'll say a thousand times, God what and idiot you are! Tampon!!
^ will vote for more war in November.
You're the typical establishment troll. Nothing new there.
Which part of my reply do you challenge? The fact that people are leaving the two corporate parties in droves? Or the part where there are massive amounts of bills to limit free speech on the intetnet floating around congress and the UN?
I hope neither, because both are facts. Something you establishment bafoons dont like.
Talking point arguments, narrow minded, short sighted, and dead wrong because you don't get the big picture.
Hc appears to be a partisan republican. He is also prone to use offensive personal attacks to distract from the substance of the issues.
You would have to be a partisan yourself to see the volume of posts I put on here, and assume I back the Republican Party in any way/shape/manner. Where you get this from, I really dont know.
You never complain about the republican right wing policies at the root of all the problems we face.
Thats why. You blame Pres Obama for everything!!! You do not acknowledge the republican efforts regarding NDAA. That threat begins and ends with Pres Obama for you.
I slam Obama because he is a huge dissapointment, and used our hard work to get elected on the grassroots, and then sided with those that funded all his tv commercials.
Dont even get me going about Bush. He is, and always will be, the dumbest most embarrasing president ever.
The Republicans are an absolute disaster. They have no clue what they are doing, and just like the Dems, dont have the leadership or the balls to change the direction from the corporations back to the people.
I acknowldege ALL OF THEIR efforts on NDAA. I look at the final vote in the Senate. What the hell more do I need to do than that?
If you want to resolve the problem you need to get beyond one senate vote and understand the problem better.
You sound like one of those people who voted for Obama then went back to sleep, woke up a couple of years later and said "why hasn't he changed everything"
Do you think there is a switch he forgot to hit? He can't undo the plutocratic power grab in a couple of years. Especially when the people aren't protesting against the right wing policies that benefit the 1%.
NDAA? The people are responsible for staying silent while the republicans creating it (and the "endless war against terror" mentality that facilitated it's passage), and while repubs defeated the dem effort to repeal,
You are responsible for never placing the blame where it belongs! For refusing to get beyond one senate vote. For remaining ignorant of the real roots of all these constitutional threats.
They exist because your repubs have taken advantage of the 9/11 attacks to pass them all! To create a "shock doctrine" mentality of fear. These republican constitutional threats exist because you have decided to pretend that the problem begins and ends with Pres Obama. You stay silent about the real roots of the problem. which just perpatuates it.
It's your fault and people like you.
Vote in house to end Afghan war: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2012/0517/House-reauthorizes-Afghan-conflict-in-bipartisan-vote
Bipartisan support as usual.
You are a hack, and if you thnk people like me that are trying to create real change, you need to leave OWS right now.
I believe in inclusion. Your attempts to purge people who don't believe what you believe is antithetical to this movement. Stay but don't judge who should leave the movement.
And please refrain from the name calling. Peace
Please take your pro Obama crap to your nearest GA. Record. And report.
Congress has a 9% approval rating. Everyone is sick of all of them. The time for change is now. Get on board, or get the hell out of the way.
I won't click on your links. You are clearly hostile and unstable.
I've been warned that some people attempt to infect computers with virus's. It seems innocent but better safe than sorry. And you certainly seen like the type. LOL
Why don't you just speak up. We don't need no stinkin links.
You hate me because I have a different opinion. Not very progressive or liberal. But very republican!
Speaking of impossible morons, here's the nifty ditty I wrote to another purist blockhead:
"Welcome to the REAL world!!!
Perfection does NOT exist.
Here there is only really fucking bad, with no hope (Cons) and majorly flawed mostly due to a fickle, unsupportive base, with hope (Dems). We start turning out like Big $ and get the money out of politics and government, we'll make vast improvements. BUT remember, no matter how good we make things, there will always be FLAWS for you nit-pickers to whine about! ALWAYS!!!!"
They don't realize (or they are Zombies) that it was and is their abandonment of our political system that allowed Big $ to take it over. The facts that we have the most $-exploited political system and the worlds lowest Voter turnout completely evades them. It has to be on purpose!!! or BLIND PREJUDICE!!!
You are VERY Republican, you are right, you are backing their fav guy, the guy that has carreid out all their disasters.,...
Its a general post from this site, idiot. Lets here your great concepts. Your best ideas. Lets here what a typical media inspired moron has to say about really changing the problems with the overall system that has led to this disaster, a disaster that the country watched happend and didnt do anything.
For once, lets hear something somewhat original. Something. Anything. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GIVE US SOMETHING.
Its almost comical, because no matter how hard we try, there are hordes of yous out there, willing to go the distance over parties that done represent you, on both sides. This is like trying to move two mountains on each side.
I believe the President is anti NDAA. Because I am notv a simplton and I know that the military budget and the American political system is a chess game.
In any event my vote is my business. You said you ain't gonna vote? And you try to encourage all these good progressives not to vote.? Do you do that to help your republicans?
Do you have some other alternative or do you just want progressives to give up their right to vote?
Way to take it to an extreme as usual, dumb ass. Comment on this, you hack: http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
I'll do what I please. And on this site that means rooting out the republican plants who attack the President unfairly while the real criminals (repub) get a pass.Repubs trumpet support for the 1% right wing policies (like NDAA) that are at the center of all our problems.
Support OWS. Vote out pro NDAA politicians
"on this site"....another internet sell out.
Its OWS dude. Go there. Tell them all to vote for Obama.
Record. Report. Or shut up.
(if you wnat to vote out pro NDAA politicians, that leaves you 7 in the senate to choose from, and you better vote for Stein or Anderson in the presidential.)
Your the one who hasn't made any suggestions. You only have attacks on the Pres. and encouragemnt of progressives to give up their right to vote.
Your attempts to silence me are laughable.
Republican!
You have nothing of value to add, you are a typical D or R poster. Very typical responses, very typical arguements. Very typical overall.
There you go again more personal attacks against our President. And me as well. But you offer no solutions. No suggestions, Nothing of substance. Because you are not here to make change. You just want to keep progressives from voting.
You do that to help your republican puppet masters right?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
Comment on the thread or shut the fuck up. We are waiting.
I think, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, he is one of the nebulous, oblivious bubbleheads. Still a saboteur.
I'm fighting with him right now on NDAA. Don't have a lot of patience for his partisan crap.
Try using this:
"Think of all the lives, homes and treasure that would have been saved if people didn't think like you in 2000, 2004 and 2010 with so many destructive and costly RepubliCon policies avoided. What selfish idiots people like you are!"
Modify at will.
Thanx
I just wrote another one but I can never retrieve them, one thing I hate about this board.
Look at this back patting orgy of two of our local pro-Obama sell outs. What radical revolutionaries you are.
If you both only realized how dumb you look to most of Occupy you would just pack up. You are only getting in the way.
Didn't your Glenn Beck dildo cum in the mail. Don't you need some "private" time.
Good one, idiot.
I don't need you to tell me I'm good, been doing this since before you were born. But really, Zombie someone else. You are out of your depth.
In the way of what.? You have never made one suggestion!! You ONLY attack Pres Obama. You aren't a revolutionary! You are a republican plant.
Lets here yours, you invalid http://occupywallst.org/forum/shake-it-up-real-solutions-to-real-problems-with-a/
no links from unstable, intolerant, hostile republicans.
Sorry.
I guess you ain't got nothin huh? Republican.!
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Nothing screams 1% ploy than keeping the nation divided against itself. Every government since the beginning of time has practiced it.
A united front against the gov is something they do not want to see, because they could not stop it. Most people want some very basic and easy changed made. The solutions are not complicated.
The two party system is set up to function exactly as it has been. It is very good at keeping the public blaming and not thinking.
That was a very good synopsis of our past and current state of affairs, and that is why we cannot let ourselves become a political movement.
I agree. I would like to see, however, a defined statement declaring we will never support either of these major parties.
As much as I could never see myself supporting either of these two parties, I like the idea of leaving them hanging....hoping.
Not supporting. Owning! If your 'overwhelming majority of the people' just flippin show up then you own the party. Either one. But they won't. And no one will listen to them.
Perhaps at a different time after this gains momentum, but until then we would be the ones being co-opted. They first have to feel the pain of the chance of losing their corrupt hegemony over us.
One person at a time.
Just returned from 3 days in Denali, so sorry for the delay in answering you. Yes one person at a time, who then goes on to talk to other people, and on and on. This movement has a good chance to grow exponentially. When people realize how their plights are related to others, and that there is a common corrupt cause for them.....they will then understand how important this struggle is.
Denali India?
No Denali National Park, as in 20,000 ft Mt. McKinley, Alaska. I was 'at one' with nature for three days. I miss it, but it is good to be clean again. There is a lot to be said for both though. lol I have been to Deli India, but that was about 20 years ago before so many of our jobs were out-sourced, and built those shining new cities, while many of our cities look kind of 'bombed out-ish.'
We should have a statement saying we want progressive policies implemented. (90% tax on the wealthy, public health option, publicly funded campaigns, mandatory voting for all eligible citizens, green tech jobs, no more war.... etc)
No, that goes against what this is.
You do not make demands of criminals.
You make demands of our elected representatives. We must get involved. It is our lazy apathetic, uninvolvment that has contributed to the current corrupt, spineless goct we have.
Progressives staying home is what the 1% want.
There is nothing lazy about what OWS has done.
But making demands of the criminals in DC is not something that is believed in. That being said, you are welcome to do whatever you please.
Who are these people you are talking about? Where are they? I remember some but they are no longer involved. I have forgotten who they were.
We just turned in petitions today to outlaw corps contributing to campaigns.
Who did you turn them into?
They go to the Secretary of State today. Occupy got their part done But looks now like another part of the team may be short. This could be close. And I am going to miss the party today.
Being uninvolved with the political process is what gave the right wing 1% policy makers their opportunity.
If we encourage uninvolvment in our political process we would be just continueing the activity that created the problem. And doing exactly what the 1% want.
The public should think clearly on the fact that it is right wing policies that are at the root of our problems.
They should be clear in the thought that progressive change will resolve our problems.
The people should know that there are differences between the approaches of the 2 ends of the political spectrum.
The political spectrum has not been rescinded!. There is such a thing as right and wrong. Lets not confuse people by spewing lies that disagreeing is some conspiracy to keep the 99% oppressed and un represented.
President Barack Obama has authorized 268 drone strikes in Pakistan since he took office in 2009.
OK, let's recruit 268 RepubliCons to go in and do the dirty work the drones are doing! Pakistan is just one of the many countries in the WOT (war on terror) Bush and Cheney started!! You try getting the MIC (military industrial complex) off the teat of such a ginormous scam!!
ginormous scam - exactly ! --- but highly profitable for a few at the grave expense to the many !
President proposes and Congress disposes: Obama should have asked for more and I believe he did, but Congress only spent what they did to plug the giant gaping hole Republicon Bush left in our economy! Probably the most important thing the stimulus did was save millions of lives (we know you Cons don't give a shit about that) from the devastation of abject poverty and the mutilation of military action conducted on the starving masses attacking the rich!!
People, do you want to get your way from government for a change??? GET OUT THE VOTE!!! Turn out a 90% and watch what happens!!! We will get the government that the 1% is enjoying by design!! Quit being manipulated!! VOTE!!!
.Boycott the elections!! Nobody shows up at the polls! Nobody supports the two party system because really they are a one party system..WTF would they do then?? No power from the people...quit feeding the monster with your belief that voting makes a difference!
You might as well be advocating to Vote GOP.
How can you not realize that? And so, why do you support RepubliCons and the maniacal few in the 1% who own them against the 99%??
Get out the Vote! Don't be Conned! 2010 Never EVER Again!!
Opting out does nothing but let the corrupt have their way.
"WTF would they do then??" Raise your taxes. Kill all laws that protect the poor form the rich. (regulations)
Lower wages and benefits.
Attack Iran and maybe Russia.
Put all poor people on the streets and in jail. And stuff.
Because the haters will not stay home.
Voting for one of the many non-corrupt party candidates doesn't support the duopoly and it sends a message that you are involved and paying attention rather than simply apathetic. http://en.wikipedia.orgwikiUnited_States_third_party_and_independent_presidential_candidates,_2012
If voting doesn't make a difference, why do the two major parties spend so much money on advertising? Why has the duopoly kicked third party candidates out of the debates? Why do they make it so hard for a new party or an independent candidate to get on the ballot?
Because its all a show my friend! They want you to think that there is this big pitched battle going on between a good guy and a bad guy! Both are puppets of the same master...You mentioned money! There is no money..it's all on a computer,,,oh we raised this much money!! How do you know??? do you have access to their bank accounts? It a scam! All this negative crap that they throw out there is to take your mind off the real problems,,like how they are planning another war on Syria, and then Iran. It's about a one world government and a one world army and a one world dictatorship! They make it hard for an independent?? of course they do,,wake up!! An independent wouldn't go along with the program of those at the top. The two party system (two faces on the same party) is controlled, funded, and directed by the scum at the top! it's a charade,, You vote for someone who makes all kinds of promises "change you can believe in",,,yes I voted for the big "O",, and then they turn right around and carry on the policies of the former administration,,only worse. More wars, more torture, more taking away of our freedoms with the stroke of a pen. When I voted last it was for one reason only,,,to get a person of color,,,any color in the white house because I am a native,,,big mistake!! You live and learn!! When has voting every made a friggin difference! Has war gone away? Are their no more homeless? Is there no more national debt? well????? Don't get sucked in,,,,see the big picture! Change has to come about by non-compliance, by not participating in the game, by showing that you finally woke up,,,that you became aware...it's not just the corporations, it's the people that own the corporations,,,the Rothschilds,,,The Rockefeller's, The Bilderberg Group!! Don't listen to the people on here who are involved in partisan politics,,they are plants!! Get beyond that,,,If your going to take it to the streets, be street wise! This isn't a fun and game thing! it's about mankind's very survival...I won't waste my time posting on here to much,,but just had to reply....I am a sixties person,,,we knew!! We still know!! This movement will survive if it gets real,,otherwise it will get taken over and used by moles who wish to trigger mass arrests and declare Martial law!! xcuse and typo's,,,,Peace!
Did you even read my post? I'm advocating voting for a party other than Dem or Rep, NOT participating in the two party system.
Yes I read it,,,and yes we are on the same page,,, Except for this ,,VOTING DOESN'T WORK,,,don't waste your time voting when you could be doing other things that might mean something!...They won't let an independent in....look what they did to Ralph Nader,,,They demonized him and made him a pariah!! He probably introduced more legislation that helped us then any other independent,,,the clean water act etc... but thats all history and means nothing now,,,
It doesn't take much time to vote for president, especially when I am at the polls anyway to vote on local and state candidates and issues. I mean geeze, voting is a pretty minimal investment of time.
I want to show my support for those who take the time and effort and the vilification to run for office in a new party. The percentage of votes received matters very much to establish new parties under state law to become a minor party. Enough people in my state voted for Nader last time to allow the Independent party to qualify for minor party status. Now, rather than have to gather thousands of signatures to get on the ballot, the Independent party nominated Rocky Anderson this year. Voting does matter.
Contained within the Affordable Care Act is a provision to provide illegals with healthcare under Medicaid without income limit, while citizens and legal aliens are limited to of 133% of the Fed poverty line... Both of the two main tenets, or supporting pillars - the Individual Mandate and the Medicaid expansion - were found to be unconstitutional, the latter by seven of the nine Justices, including - amazingly enough - Kagan...
In reference to "inactivity" under the Commerce Clause, Scalia, as always "spot on," eminently logical and brilliant, stated the following: "such a definition of market participants is unprecedented and were it to be a premise for the excessive of national power, it would have no principled limits." The Constitution exists solely for the purpose of limiting Federal power; to leave governance to the rule of their benevolence is the equivalent of conferring upon government the Divine Right of Kings.
Don't be fooled: the Act was pushed through Congress with a simple majority of 51 votes under a process known as "budget reconciliation" in violation of its own "Byrd Rules"; it would have destroyed all last remaining remnants of any concept of individual "right," and in eliminating the ability of the state to voluntarily "opt out," or resist coercive measures, conferred upon the Fed the power to usurp all State governance in instituting ANY program it so desired.
This was a massive power grab and its true intent was NOT to provide healthcare for our poor or to extend benefits to those formerly denied by the insurance company - these are but enticement - the true intent was to provide healthcare without limit to ALL illegal aliens supported through both increased insurance costs and Fed, State, and local taxes.
What is also particularly disturbing when reading Ginsburg, whose minority decision amounts in style and fashion to little more than a criminal defense with its attempts to spin the limit of law as it applies inept, inapt, and inexact analogy to prove that twist, is the overall authoritative tenor - individual and state compliance by command and demand.
The King is DEAD; Long Live the King!
You should not use others words without attribution. For a bit there I was thinking you actually saw the "true intent" ...and then you went all tin foil hat on me.
The primary purpose, never a secret, was to reduce the rate of inflation of health insurance costs. Because the current rate was unsustainable. A lot of good things came along with that.
"a provision to provide illegals with healthcare under Medicaid without income limit," Show me.
"the Individual Mandate and the Medicaid expansion - were found to be unconstitutional" Not exactly. Mandate - You can incentivise through the tax code. Like housing and children and marriage.
Withholding ALL Medicaid if they don't do the expansion was found unconstitutional. Why the Medicaid expansion? Because it is cheaper than for profit insurance. The expansion saves a lot of money.
Oh, and 133% of poverty likely covers most of us. So not only will you not have to pay the penalty but you will get help affording insurance. YaY, gubmint money! The most radical right wing haters I know do love they gubmint money.They just don't like other people getting it.
The primary purpose was stated to be affordable universal healthcare.
Illegals are now covered under Medicaid whether they have an income of 5 dollars or 5 mil dollars; they gained far more from this than the citizen and the legally welcome alien. The bill also contains a number of other provisions inserted to the benefit of those 51 Senators who cut a deal in budget reconciliation; all of these, I'm quite certain would be viewed as "unfair"; there is this question of equality.
By any chance would you happen to remember all of those occasions when we asked these specific questions of Pelosi and others? Do you remember the lies that emanated or the response of Pelosi with "let's pass it first," or words to that effect?
You can create incentive through tax code, but then it is a credit without penalty and not a tax. This, btw, is not a tax but a penalty - far from being a credit.
And how could you possibly suppose that the expansion of Medicaid is less costly? Less costly to whom, and what of equal rights and due process?
Do we need to address the problem of too costly healthcare? Of course we do, but these concerns should be addressed to Congress and not to the stripping of all rights in the pursuit of the progressive agenda.
PS: Read the bill! And if you don't have time for that then at least read the entire decision.
Learn to read.
"illegals"? They are hard working people. Lets just eliminate the limits on southern immigration! Lets just open the flood gates and let all these good honest hard working people into this great nation.
Lets take all the "tired, poor, ...etc" the whole deal. give 'em free education (as we should for everyone) cheap healthcare. And put this issue to bed already. What are you afraid of.
More people is a good thing. We should not be selfish and greedy with our vast amount of riches, and resources. After all everything America has we took from the rest of the world. No?
The history of immigration policy, legislation, politics, and actual practice has always been one of open-door versus restrictionism but this is the first time in our nation's history that the alien criminal has been deemed to be admissible, non-excludable, non-deportable, by even our past most liberal organizations. The High Court's decision coupled the Obama administration's withdrawal of Homeland Security represents a radically new agenda; I have nothing against Hispanics but I am concerned about the diminutive effect to quality of life issues to include the cost of our healthcare.
And I'm not really sure what vast resources you refer to; we're 15 tril in debt, a debt we will never be able to repay and virtually all of our municipalities are indebted beyond limit, too.
Everything America has we took from the rest of the world? While we do take, derive, from the world all air, water, food, and even space it is nonetheless the way of all living species; we only insert civility as self-serving needs require. In light of this, to lump us in as that which is criminal, or even morally reprehensible, is extreme; it was a survival defense.
Riiight! Survival.! This Pres has deported more illegal immigrants than any of your repub presidents. He has deported those that commit crimes here.
We have more resources than any other nation. We are the richest nation on earth. What are you talkin about? The national debt (ballooned by your repubs) will be paid down as soon as repubs in congress stop preventing this Pres economic plans
Growth is the only way to undo the repub right wing mess we are in.
By the early 1300s all forests as a source of heat and cooking fires had been reduced to but ten percent... by the 1600s so many poor roamed the British Isles that the British were compelled to sell over 3 million of their poor into slavery. The New World offered a land of abundance with unlimited resources; this migration was an economic endeavor, as a matter of survival.
You know, perhaps you see the alarmingly authoritative tenor of the current progressive movement as reform but I'm going to tell you something - reformers don't last long. Because it is "economics" and that is an apparatus that lives entirely outside the reach of humanity; it cannot be restrained or controlled in large by any one individual, association, or organization of individuals. And social services are not resources, they are life enhancements, paid for with dollars; there is no other way. In fact they would have never come into existence at all if it were not for dollars or if we were totally reliant on the benevolence of some good will.
My Democrat governed County has been reducing and eliminating social services for years; they are now laying off employees, and reducing employee medical benefits, because they're broke. This combination of rapid Federal debt escalation coupled with free social services for not only citizens, but both the rich and poor of all foreign nations, should they just happen to move their residence even if only temporarily, is pure insanity. More, it's an attack on our nation... this is not partisan - there is no interest in politics - it's survival. And while you are willing to sacrifice your children and their quality of life which is in fact an evolutionary genetic security - many are not.
Leave my children out of this. Cuts should be replaced by increasing taxes on the wealthy who have been gettin a free ride and much welfare from the 99% for decades.
More immigration means more workers, more tax revenue, more consumer demand, more economic growth.
Our problems are not related to the small % of immigrants compared to the huge population of the country. That is laughable.
All we need is job growth to absorb the current immigation and millions more. You are much too negative. You think very low of this great nation.
We can absorb much more. Just stop giving tax breaks to corps who outsource. Raise the tax rate on the wealthy to 90%.
That'll do it. Done!
We don't have to be selfish and greedy!. Spread the wealth. Share. Help your fellow earthlings. We can be the beacon to the world. Have faith.
Have you never heard of equality?
The extremely poor and illiterate, even in their own language, will never create jobs let alone purchase any of our made in China products; they will merely become charges on the state.
And that state is the America taxpayer.
Nah. Iwas extremely poor. I had a successful tech career, I have property, hire wokers frequently. I don't consume a lot of plasticcrap from China now but have in the past.
Poor people frequently start businesses and succeed. We should encourage that. And this always been true! From the pushcart vendors of the 19th century to the street vendors of today.
Peace
Poor people frequently do but under this bill the illegal will do so on the backs of the citizenry. As self employed, with non-reportable income, they will draw on that citizenry for healthcare their entire lives; if this business blueprint is successful their children and grandchildren will draw on it also. Combine this with open-border immigration policy, and I have to ask you, where do you think this money is coming from? If we can't afford healthcare for ourselves, what makes you think we can afford healthcare for the entire third world?
The more people we have the more revenue we have. Your suggestion that poor business people are all making money as non reportable is just not true. Especially their children and grand children who will go through school and get jobs like the rest of us.
Now we have to punish outsourcing, reward insourcing, and insist that any corp who wants to do business here must hire Americans. Also Tax the shit out of the wealthiest among us who have had a free ride.
Its the only way.
Peace
The problem is that I believe we are already economically stressed, meaning there's an overabundance of labor. And when there's an over abundance of labor, the immigrant always works for less, devaluing the price of labor everywhere. Here in the US, we can't work cheap enough - they first moved manufacturing to Taiwan, then China, then India, and now they are developing the infrastructure to enable them to move from there to Bangladesh. All along the way labor is devalued and in Bangladesh they will work for what, a penny a day? At what point do we label these people our virtual slaves? At what point do we conclude that we have enslaved the entire world to the corporate desire of success through the very competitive market of an American desire for cheap products?
TO say that we are indebted to China is somewhat of a joke; their people work for American corporations to very inexpensively create products that we purchase; at the end of the year we call 'em up and say, "send us our money back, we're broke and we want to buy more of your products." And they do because they don't want their people - now enslaved to the lifestyle of corporate employment - to rise in revolt against them. But every year those at the top keep a little bit more and a little bit more; while creating the means to self-defense; eventually those on top will gain sufficient power to insulate themselves from their own people, and deny us a return of our money. And our economy will crash; people everywhere in this country and that will starve; in fact, people will starve everywhere throughout the world, and we will find ourselves at war.
There is this thing in America, it's called "equality," theoretically supported by this thing of "due process." They're merely abstract concepts, placed on paper, "words" is all they really are. But essentially what they have traditionally meant in the vernacular of an American identity is that freedom as a matter of degree, as limited to needs of society, shall be equally apportioned. What this has created is a class self-leveling; there is no insulated aristocracy, as well it should be, for those that are poor today may very well be rich tomorrow, conversely those that are rich today may very well be poor tomorrow. The point is we are all equal in our rights, no one should be less free than the other, no one should more enslaved than the other; in short - no one should force-lawed to donate a greater portion of their earnings to the lifestyle of another.
While all along the way we create division where none need be - this Utopian vision of the 60s was, it appears, a fallacy. So much work, we almost made it... but equality is NOT to be, nor was it ever truly intended... all have a personal agenda which pits one against another. Sad, wouldn't ya say?
So it really does become a question of ideals.
PS: Written by a poor person...
Great sounds like you got it all figured out. Is there anything you think we should do to change the situation or is it all ok with you.
Peace
Well, to start with, I think we have had an impact. But I think we need to return the discussion to the table, where I would expect to find that many are now more receptive.
We need to reinstate the Hippocratic Oath, insert a universal "affordability clause" - there's no reason a doctor should gain tens or even hundreds of thousands for an hour's worth of surgery; it's a mechanical procedure and their fees are ridiculous.
We need to deny the illegal all access; at any given moment in NY, nine out any ten women in maternity are illegals with no health insurance - it astronomically ramps up both doctor and hospital fees.
We need to rein in pharmaceuticals; there's no reason that a handful of powder should possess the value a hundred times that of gold.
We need to rein in insurance companies; there's no reason they should consistently score at years end as corporate top-earners.
We need to introduce more competition... perhaps even invite foreign nations to invest in this investment vehicle that we call "insurance," that consistently buys legislation through soft money contributions, as it has very obviously done here, either intentionally or unintentionally, with the AFA.
End the lobbyists - 37,000 for a mere 535 in Congress?
But these are new ideas, are they? You've heard these before.
You know, during the Rev there were many, many, people who sacrificed their homes and all they had in an effort to deny the British security; many of these same families, in a world utterly devoid of all safety nets, again sacrificed these very same homes, and all they had, to deny the enemy a safe refuge from which to conduct war during the Civil War. Why do you suppose any would do that, why not merely sacrifice some little freedom to retain what one had; what then this thing of "freedom"?
And you know, contrary to popular belief, the British were extremely decisive - in the South, they freed the slave, pitting him against his Master; to the west they drew a line at the Appalachians, prohibiting both our ability to pursue the need of expansion and the profit derived of speculation; to the north they allowed the adoption of Roman Catholicism as the state religion, thereby gaining an ally, and to the east they imposed navigation acts; then they began to tax... The two words most oft stated in all colonial documentation of either the individual or the colonial authority were "liberty" and "slavery," because the colonials, under the arbitrary and unlimited power of monarchy - the "Divine Right of Kings" - saw this as a one or the other proposition. One was either free or one was un-free, and if un-free, he was to serve wholly at the King's pleasure. And many did.
Our Bill of Rights, added later as amended in the effort to gain ratification, sits upon a structure intended to limit Federal power through a separation of powers; it grants a certain definite level of sovereignty to both the state and the individual. It is the guarantor of our freedom as this sense that if limits need be applied to freedom in an effort to serve the welfare of the whole, that these limits be equally apportioned - no one is more free, no one is less free, and the result is entirely class leveling, as will it should be, for as all in colonial America were intimately aware, in a world of free enterprise those who are poor today may be rich tomorrow and those who are rich today may very well be poor tomorrow.
We should not sacrifice these freedoms for our lives, let alone for some general health, because as our population continues to grow in almost exponential manner, and resources and personal economics become more greatly stressed, to leave all to the hope of some equally applied benevolence of governance is rather foolish; mankind has a long history of depravity that despicably denies all such Utopian visions and ideals.
This health care bill proposed allowances of governance that would have enabled the Fed to institute any federal policy in any state, through economic manipulation, and pass any arbitrary law it pleased upon the individual, and this is expressed in an alarmingly authoritative tenor.
I would add that this is a nation of diversity and there are varying views of the proper place of governance; amongst Roman Catholics, for example, it appears there is a greater willingness of deference than that typically possessed of the Protestant, of any denomination or sect, and there are also those who are less removed from the monarchy of Europe, Asia, and Africa. And there are those who say all governors are corrupt anyway; it just doesn't matter. But we ourselves exist as the anomaly in this equation and it has allowed us a both a greater prosperity and the ability through sphere of influence to temper governance everywhere - the Englishman today is more free because we are more free, on and on, etc., ad infinitum.
We should not regress in the name of progress; we should not sacrifice freedom today for the fear of this enslavement tomorrow; better to die at this very moment than to sell our children into a possible future slavery to either this nation or any foreign nation.
That's my opinion and I will fight these people until the day I die. Freedom is not free, nor is healthcare apparently, even so it is not is not an inalienable right, but merely life enhancement, no more relevant on the evolutionary scale than the LCD. I'm not selling freedom for another silly product.
They ain't taken a penny from old ladies. That is republican misinformation talkin points.!
When the historic Affordable Health Care Act is totally implemented we will save through efficiencies and cutting fraud $500 billion over 10 years ($50 billion per year) We will then allocate the savings from medicare efficiency to health care subsidies (tax cuts!) to middle class families up to $4k per year.
No elderly will lose any services. In fact thegreat ACA improves elderly medicare by closing your boy Bush's prescription donut hole.
THAT is the truth!
Peace, Love, & Understanding.
Nah just cut the costs like yuo laid out for dr and big pharma. Eliminate inmsur corp profit and you mostly there. Make all corps pay not just wells fargo.
Don't worry we can do it.
Peace
I believe it is a right! Speech, Assembly, religion, Press, Guns And Health which is more important than some of the others.
Peace & health.
everyone is intrinsically dependent on others
Health Care is a gift from society, and completely contingent on someone else. By requesting health care from someone, you infringe on someone else's personal and private being. Things like speech and religion can be done in a state of nature and don't infringe on someone's personal and private being, and are therefore an inherent right of every individual.
The ability to give out health care is a natural right. But to request it from someone else is a gift.
I'm merely arguing philosophically, but I think it's an important distinction.
in 1810, more than three quarters of the population was under the age of 25. Healthcare is not a right and longevity on the evolutionary scale is more detrimental than any are willing to admit; it does not build nations.
Health careis a right! Thats why we don't refuse ER care.
Medicare for all!! End private health insurance corps!
Support OWS. Vote out anti public option politicians.
Peace & freedom
Oh geez... how's that song go, "and dream a little dream come true..."?
The only way the American people of the future will be able to afford single-payer is to empty Wells Fargo of all its assets. Somehow, I suspect, the powers that be are NOT going to let us do that.
Free health care isn't a natural right, but it's the right thing to do.
I love saying deny healthcare at parties
I guess you attend a lot of "illegal" parties? I don't know, you know. I was thinking about having a pig roast this summer; because in truth I really like the smiley little bastards, and the hispanics love pig roasts - they invite their friends and relatives for miles around and backyard bbqs of 60 to 100, even 200, are not uncommon. Thing thing is, though, where we boil and scrape to remove the hair from the pig, they employ blow torches to burn it all off (truth, I swear to God). So, to burn or not to burn, that is the question, and the only one, I suppose, of any real relevance here. Which would you prefer?
Maybe you want us to go back the ways of 1810 and allow everyone to die without providing care? Why not just kill off all the old and sick in order to help the healthy enjoy a better economic life.? Survival of the fittest? Thats a valid theory no?
Welcome to carousel, Logan. Now run!
LOL. Peace
Health care is a right! Medicare for all!
Support OWS. Vote out anti public option politicians!
They cut Medicare; they took from little old ladies to give to illegals - it's immoral, despicable, and "border-line" treasonous.
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