Forum Post: ++ Why are 911 Truthers Scrubbing the Bottom of the Barrel with their Scientific Claims? ++
Posted 12 years ago on Dec. 6, 2011, 9:32 p.m. EST by Thrasymaque
(-2138)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
Scientists like Steven Hawking publish their ideas and discoveries in respected peer-reviewed scientific journals so they can share their work with the scientific community. They welcome criticism from other scholars because they are looking for the truth; they realize auto-criticism and criticism are truth's best friends.
After ten years of serious research, why haven't 911 Truthers published even one article in a serious scientific peer-reviewed journal? If it's because of USA's Men in Black trying to cover them up, why don't they publish in one of the several international scientific peer-reviewed journals?
Why do they spend their time in random Internet forums trying to convince random people they don't even know by posting links to their self-published articles that feature on their self-hosted blogs? Isn't this a major waste of time? Even if they convince some strangers with this method, can they really convince the majority of Americans? Aren't they hurting their own movement by scrubbing at the bottom of the barrel?
Wouldn't it be funny if someone like Stephen Hawking published his discoveries on a self-published blog then spent many hours trying to convince unknown people in random forums to follow his link and read about his discoveries?
My father, a structural engineer with over 40 years of experience with concrete and steel structures, and a lifetime member of the American Society of Civil Engineers wrote an article on the collapse of the World Trade Center, and submitted it to one their journals. They told him he couldn't include his section on WTC 7. He refused to be censored. And, no, it wasn't a peer critique. They told him not to talk about WTC7.
You are 100% correct. We are not allowed to publicize dissenting views about 911 in mainstream media. Some time back I bought a 911 commerative boxed dvd set from amazon. It turned out to be a propaganda effort to try to convince me that we were told the truth. On that awful day, I remember watching a female reporter saying that Building No, 7 had already collapsed behind her, but we could see it was still there, There were so many mistakes made by the perpetrators that I could almost imagine the 3 stooges had done it.
Native Americans speak out about 9/11 and the Global Denigration of Muslims - Part 1/2
Native Americans speak out about 9/11 and the Global Denigration of Muslims - Part 2/2
@ fjolsvit : Very Interesting + pls see : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6mJOqRDI4 ! fiat justitia ...
I'm a supporting member of AE911Truth. I have a copy of the dvd.
AE911Truth = Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth ; http://www.ae911truth.org/ fiat lux ...
Physics prof on 9/11 demolitions. This was my jumping off point for 9/11 Truth. I was already interested, but Dr. Jones pulled me over the potential barrier of cognitive dissonance.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-388877268471351789
9/11 Revisited: Scientific and Ethical Questions 1:48:29 - 4 years ago
At Utah Valley State College, in a largely academic setting, Professor of Physics at Brigham Young University, Dr. Steven Jones, thoroughly and definitively debunks the FEMA, NIST, and 'fattie bin Laden' myths promoted by the government. Read the excellent review of this presentation at http://www.globaloutlook.ca/StevenJones.htm . I agree with the review there is a growing political shift in this country, not between left and right, but between right and wrong with respect to 9/11. This issue is unlike the civil war where some people could consciously support slavery. No one can consciously support mass murder. It's just a matter of making people aware. Slide presentation at http://www.docstoc.com/docs/125980/911-Revisited-Scientific-and-Ethical-Questions Divx format at http://www.veoh.com/videos/v6256100fq35ZxxM
"Physics prof (sic) on (sic) 9/11 (ed. were) demolitions".
You clearly don't understand physics. The path of least resistance combined with the force of gravity predict exactly how the buildings collapsed. Any OTHER way would have been suspicious.
Physics is second nature for me. I recently read Einstein's The Meaning of Relativity. You?
This is more in line with Newton.
I don't care if you read it, you obviously don't understand it. Buildings fall DOWN, straight down, unless a force os directed at it from the side.
When upper floors collapse onto lower ones, the building progressively collapses and pancakes.
Simple.
Not nefarious, not conspiratorial, just gravity, velocity, mass, and materials.
And it doesn't make you my oh so special savior for believing otherwise.
Buildings fell DOWN, straight down on 9/11/01 just as if these were controlled demolitions. Give any other example of a structural collapse even remotely similar to what happened to the WTC on 9/11/01. If that was not controlled demolition, then three completely unprecedented engineering disasters happened on the same day, at the same site (insured by the same owner against terrorism a few weeks prior) with virtually no direct forensic investigation of the remains.
The minimal direct forensic investigation revealed solid evidence of the use of thermate to destroy the buildings.
www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apc.pdf
The evidence is so overwhelming that it's not worth my time to keep repeating it.
The amount of heat in the rubble is sufficient proof of something other than fire induced building collapse.
Controlled demolitions cause buildings to fall straight down (at least some of them do: others create direction). They do so by knocking out supports beneath the structure in unison.
The WTC buildings were supported by their outer shell, unique in the history of skyscrapers. When that out shell was weakened by the joists that kept them apart equally, failing , in unison, precisely in the same manner as a controlled demolition on a more traditionally built structure. The result is exactly what we saw (me with my own eyes from walking distance); The buildings fell straight down.
And using a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument is a common fallacy among you morons.
Thermite is NEVER mentioned in the FEMA article you pointed to. Not once.
Now, I'm sure that won't convince you. Nothing will. Like many with mental illness you don't know you have it. I'm done with you. Have fun masturbating in public some more. I will no longer stroke your pathetic need for attention.
Latin for complete bullsh!t. Thermate is demonstrated in appendix C .
"Buildings fall DOWN, straight down, UNLESS a force is directed at it from the side." !!! So WTF kind of impact were The Planes, other than "from the side"?!! Yet The Buildings DID fall Straight Down ?? However, despite your own accurate and self-revelatory words, "The Official Reason" for the collapse of WTC1,2 & 7 was FIRE !
Thus, for the first time in Civil Engineering History did 3 buildings collapse due to fire (allegedly) and in the case of WTC1&2, these 'fires' burnt for only about an hour. On this rational alone, building codes and regs. around The World should be changed, as apparently steel and concrete buildings can "Fail" and Suffer Catastrophic Collapse, due to moderate fires. This is of course a ridiculous assertion, as Every Civil & Structural Engineer In The World knows in the quite depths of his own mind and heart ...
Finally, for evidence of what really happens in a "Towering Inferno" situation, please see :
a) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4MjsVnasLA&feature=related ,
b) http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/spain_fire_2005.html ,
c) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windsor_Tower_(Madrid) &
d) http://preview.tinyurl.com/cmggl !!!
~*~
ad iudicium ...
Moron. Of COURSE the buildings collapsed due to fire, at temperatures exceeding 2000 degrees. There was very little steel: the building was considered cutting edge engineering at the time for its lightness. There was VERY little concrete, kept to a bare minimum. The steel was spay coated with a light coating of asbestos.
There was no lateral force at the time of collapse. The only force was gravity, which acts DOWNWARD.
Building codes have indeed been changes since the act of Jihadist terrorism.
For the THIRD TIME, the chief engineer of the buildings laid it all out publicly.
But you will only pay attention to conjecture, pseudo science and post hoc fallacies.
There is NO amount of eidence that ill convince you thatthis was not a shadowy consperiacy, not because it doesn't exist, but becuase you don't want to believe it. Your is a religious faith born of cynicism and suspicion. It is not the truth, but a creed.
good luck in your grandiose and delusional attempt to save the world from things that never happened.
Good-bye.
What a desperate, dissembling dork you are ! Did you even click the links ?
The WTC buildings in question were Massively Strong "Tube Structures" designed to withstand Multiple Plane Impacts and The Immense Shearing Forces of Hurricanes !!
Go Do Your Own Research as I'm weary of corroborating with links and while you're at it go find out for yourself, as to what made The Basement Levels to Fail ! Are you even getting this notion of "Building Failure" I wonder !
Anyway our exchange is over, thank goodness ;-)
omnia causa fiunt ...
How sad you are.
ep@1nter : Re. "When upper floors collapse onto lower ones, the building progressively collapses and pancakes." !!!
a) Really ?!!
b) At Free Fall Speed ?!
c) Do Buildings 'Naturally' Collapse Spontaneously and "Fail! ?
d) Or do they actually have to be 'unnaturally' and consciously "Pulled" ?
e) The Plane Impacts on WTC1&2 were Asymmetrical, so how does that cause a Symmetrical fall ?!
f) Re. WTC 7 (where a-d above also apply), do I really need to say anymore and spell IT out for you ?!!
ad iudicium ...
There was nothing spontaneous about the collapse. Planes hit them at nearly the speed of bullets from a gun. A fire that burned at over 2000 degrees melted joists.
Gravity pulls.
The buildings fell as a result of internal failure, not directional failure.
You don't understand a thimbleful of structural engineering.
And you don't listen. All of this has shown a thousand times. It is never enough for you and your ilk. You just keep rehashing repeatedly debunked fantasies.
You are al ill person. Seek medication.
@ epa1 : How quixotically cosmic !
As you were writing your desperately dissembling drivel just above ; I was writing the slightly more substantive (4 posts above!) response, such that as I finished and clicked 'save', the arrival of your effort flagged up !! The only quandary that I'm now left with is ... do I cut and paste and repeat it here ? Decisions, decisions !!
Finally, you really are a bit of a desperate dork, aren't you ?
nosce te ipsum ...
Except that the official story is no longer the pancake theory and hasn't been for a while. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#cite_note-NISTFAQ-5 NIST also emphasized the role of the fires, but it did not attribute the collapses to failing floor joists. Instead, NIST found that sagging floors pulled inward on the perimeter columns: "This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers."[6] http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/
The ineard bowing of the exterior shell, which were the load-bearing walls did two things: released the joists, and, more importantly make sure they could not support the weight above them. If your press down a a plastic straw that's in good shape, it takes a LOT of force to collapse it. But if that straw is bent, it takes very little force to do so. Whatever is above that bent straw will comes crashing down. The CHEIF ENGINEER WHO DESIGNED THE BUILDING EXPLAINED IT THOROUGHLY HIMSELF.
But I am aware that actual evidence, no matter how much or how thoroughly analyzed, will never convince you. Your motivation is psychological, like a drug addict. Every assertion you have made has been debunk over and over and over and over and over and over again. You just repeat them as is they never were. I am certain that talking to you is like trying to push on a string. And will do it no more. If you want to continue believing that you are smarter than the engineers who built that building, go ahead, If you wan to continue to believe that you are the savior of the world, fine. But get medication.
[Removed]
The only big flaw on the conspiracy of the government detonating the empty building 7 is: a reason.
Re. your lacuna about WTC 7 : a) http://wtc7.net/ ; b) http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/ & c) http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-mysteries/ . fiat justitia ruat caelum ...
A revisionist among us. Cute;).
[Deleted]
just out of curiosity did they ever find the black boxes of the two flights that hit the towers? I dont remember any reports one way ot the other, and if the did what became of them??
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BUN410B.html
9/11 was an inside job. I'm not sure what I'm wrong about regarding 9/11.
IMO any movement seeking fundamental change in the conduct of government and industry in the US that will avoid such a foundational issue as 9/11 is bound to be impotent. It may become popular, but at the expense of being effective.
Informal numbers I've seen tell me that many OWSer support 9/11 Truth. But I'm not really concerned about reaching the masses with 9/11 Truth through OWS, though I believe it's a worthwhile cause. My immediate goal is to get 9/11 Truth to OWS participants. If you don't understand the basics of 9/11 Truth, you don't understand the dynamics of what is wrong with the US government and economy.
Sorry but the above comment couldn't nest where it needed to be. I was addressing OW supporters in general.
9/11 Truth science is solid. You know this as well as I do. When I first started there were only a handful of scientists and engineers supporting the cause. That number has grown considerably since then. Nonetheless, there is still much work to be done. Many of us don't have time to reach out to our peers, or are in situations where it is professionally hazardous. I do what I can, once I gain a degree of mutual trust.
Just posting this raises my anxiety level. Who knows who is monitoring this forum. I often wish I had it in myself to be complacent and compliant. I would be much more successful in my career. And certainly more secure in that respect.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~ Ben Franklin
You're afraid to defend your words? To tell us your name? What a joke.
I've signed my name to these ideas more than once. You can find my name here:
http://www2.ae911truth.org/signpetition.php
It's over. The Truth movement is dead. You've just clarified its death. After ten years, you have no evidence so now you're trying to pull the racist card on your critics. It's so pathetic and lame. I thought posting in random forums to random users was bad, but this is ridiculous. How low will you go? How desperate are you? Or sick? Mentally incapable or realizing there comes a time to quit; to pack the bags and go home. OWS will never support your movement because you guys have already committed self-suicide. Look at you. You're not even scrubbing the bottom of the barrel, your underneath the barrel with the worms and the maggots. Pathetic.
Ae911truth.org is still growing. The angle I'm working will never be apparent to you, but it's essential.
Do what you believe in, but don't post here if you don't want to be ridiculed or your pages vandalized. I'll be on the lookout. I'm sad you cannot see the lameness of your ways, but that is your problem not mine. It's your reputation that's on the line. As you can see, you can't change anybody's mind on this forum. Posting your garbage is useless in that regards and only serves to make you look desperate. It's self-suicide and counter productive.
I'm just planting seeds. All people really need to see is that there is a dispute about 9/11 that lots of people are involved in. Truth will prevail. That's why I don't care about the nature of your mindless header for this thread.
Truth has already prevailed. After ten years of research you need to plant seeds for your ideas in random forums to random people. That's because you found nothing of worth. You have mentally ill my friend.
With all due respect, this anecdote is not really proof of anything.
Maybe not, but it was relevant to me. The burden of proof is on the heads of those who support the official party line, including you. With all due respect, of course.
There has been an investigation, there was an admission from the group responsible, there is no burden of proof on the government. Noting is going to satisfy conspiracy theorists in any event. They have faith, any evidence against their theory is always just another example of how insidious and clever the conspirators were.
9/11 Truth MSM blackout. It is evidence of an MSM blackout of 9/11 Truth. There's enough evidence of a massive coverup and failure to investigate 9/11 to prove that those responsible for the investigation were criminally negligent to the level of high treason.
Ya well, his father's better than your father. And my father's better than both of your fathers. Can your father jet ski? Can he? Be honest now!
Stephen Hawking once talked about his unnamed father to prove his scientific discovery. Without using that anecdote, his whole theorem would have been useless. Be careful about what you say about other people's fathers.
My late father (who died at 87 years of age) was a real SOB, and I didn't speak to him in the last 36 years of his life while he lived with his (like Newt Gingrich) 3rd wife, and so we'll leave him out of it. Now back to 911, which by all evidence I've seen, was a Total Con Job perpetrated on the American people and people of many other nations.
It's sad and lame that you have to come to random forums and try to convince random posters. It shows you have a desperate position.
I stand corrected.
ROFLMFAO you truthers crack me up.
You find mass murder funny? I don't.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/nov/16/seminar-on-science-of-trade-center-disasters/
published Wednesday, November 16th, 2011 Seminar on science of Trade Center disasters raises questions
Fjolsvit, "Perspective" is the kind that laughs at his own bodily functions-hopes you'll participate, so he can transfer the stink. Much like Thrastrawman -likely just his alterego sock puppet ...since he's lost control of perception management on his own post.
@ P : Well ST0P taking 'crack' & then start with : http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/911/ !!!
Your father? What's his name? Where can we get more information about his credentials and read his papers.
Are you really so desperate the you have to bring your unnamed father in this random forum to try to convince random posters that you are right? For what? Where is your integrity? Can you imagine if Stephen Hawking was trying to convince us by talking about his unnamed father? Your making your case look worse and worse with every posting. Now, your scrubbing under the barrel. That's the worst place where all the worms and maggots live. Are you fond of maggots?
He wrote a 12 page letter to the Congressional leadership informing them of his findings. I'm not giving you his name or other personal information.
"Now, your scrubbing under the barrel. That's the worst place where all the worms and maggots live. Are you fond of maggots?" I agree that conversing with you is a bit questionable, and could serve to lower the respect others have for my contributions to this forum.
I don't expect you to give your father's name. That is private information. What I wanted you to realize was that if you can't give us your father's name, then you shouldn't write about your father at all since it serves no purpose. It just looks silly. It becomes a childish "Ya, well my father said so." type nonsense.
The only thing capable of ruining your reputability is your own comments, and they're already going a great job at it. I tried to help, I really did, but you Truthers keep shooting yourselves in the foot. Instead of acting like scientists, you're acting like David Icke want to bes.
Stop talking about what your unnamed fathers did in random forums to random people. For God's sake it does not provide proof and just makes you look desperate. Think. Would Stephen Hawking to that to tell the world about his discoveries?
9/11 was an inside job, and you know it.
I don't believe so. I think you're crazy. And, posting about what your unnamed father's unnamed articles is absolutely useless and only serves to make you look desperate and inefficient. Good luck with that.
9/11 was an inside job, and you know it.
Please try to compose complete and coherent sentences.
It was not an "inside job".
9/11 was an inside job. I'm not sure what you are trying to say, but the perpetrators of the 9/11/01 terrorist attacks were working from within the US National Security infrastructure. It was not committed by islamakazis with box-cutters.
And, we know this because of the unnamed article of your unnamed father?
U.S. Military Officers for 9/11 Truth
http://www.militaryofficersfor911truth.org/
give it up already. muslims did it, on their own.
Intelligence Officers for 9/11 Truth: Terrell E. Arnold
http://911blogger.com/news/2010-03-15/intelligence-officers-911-truth-terrell-e-arnold
He could also publish his paper in British peer-reviewed journals. The Truthers are accepted there. They gave a talk at the School of Architecture and Engineering.
Why did your father talk about WTC7 in his paper? He should resubmit and only talk about his scientific claims. He most likely got refused because his paper wasn't up to to standards. He needs to clean up his paper and resubmit it without mentioning WTC7.
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm
Stephen Jones and Niels Harritt authored and submitted their peer-reviewed paper on the discovery of incendiary nano-thermite found in all dust samples from WTC sites (1, 2, and 7). It stands IRREFUTED to this day.
You are clearly a disinfobot, as is your associate, April.
Www.ae911truth.org Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth have over 1700 licensed architects, engineers, demolitions experts, and military officers among their members.
Do you get your cash-filled envelopes from Cass Sunstein or Phil Zelikow?
Are you saying the Journal of 911 Studies is an unbiased scientific peer-reviewed journal? That seems like a naïve and wild assumption! The name implies is it not a serious and unbiased journal.
Establishment journals are biased toward the status quo. Perhaps you should read the paper by Jones rather than attacking the messenger.
This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on these forums. Science progresses with articles in real scientific peer-reviewed journals. If these journals were biased towards the status quo, science would not advance!
It's an utter sign of failure that Truthers had to create their own journal. It's embarrassing to the movement. It marks its downfall.
Eisenhower's warning
"If these journals were biased towards the status quo..." Are you kidding? Getting new ideas accepted and published is a cliche drama in the scientific community. Science, by its very nature is conservative. But the bias toward the status quo I am talking about in this case is political, not scientific.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Military-Industrial_Complex_Speech
Now this conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual --is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources, and livelihood are all involved. So is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
You are sinking deeper. Your arguments have no worth.
When Politics Displaces Physics
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18344.htm
Gooooo baaaack tooooo sleeeeeeeep.
I guess we have a different definition of peer-reviewed journal.
bentham science journal
http://tinyurl.com/3puff4u
If it's possible to submit to peer-reviewed journals, then why aren't all the other Truthers doing the same? fjolsvit and his father both have interesting theories. By rummaging random forums and posting to random users to propagate their links to their self-published blogs, they are not only loosing their time, but they are making the Truth movement look desperate. Why commit this self-suicide? Who would take Stephen Hawking seriously if he did the same?
I've disproven your thesis. Run along little hasbarat:)
No, my thesis doesn't rely on the idea that nothing from the Truthers was ever published in peer-reviewed journals. My thesis relies on the idea that every time a Truther tries to convince a random person in a random forum he is only showing how desperate he is by his willingness to waste his precious time. I never saw a serious and well respected scientist do this before. It would be unthinkable for someone like Stephen Hawking to post links to his self-published blog where he prints his discoveries. If Truthers want to survive, they need to stop using this self-suicidal technique. It's been ten years of research, and you can only show two papers published in a serious way. All the rest are on self-published blogs. Let's work seriously to uncover the truth, not to bury ourselves with our own dubious marketing ploys. As Truthers, we must show the world we are serious. This is imperative.
We have an architect professor at the University who has weekly meetings on current events & injustices (like in Mexico, Sudan) and he's a 9/11 Truther. AE911 sends Architects to conventions to recruit. Next time I go, I'll ask him why they don't publish in peer-reviewed journals. Wonder if any of the government's theories were peer-reviewed and allowed letters to the editor be published?
Everything was pulverized at ground zero: no sofas, concrete, curtains, doors . . . inches of dust all over lower Manhattan . . . burned out cars blocks away from massive explosion!
Massive planes hitting massive buildings will create these types of massive explosions. Of course, the fact that the building fell and crushed everything inside is also a pretty massive explosion on its own.
Does your friend the professor write his theories in self-published blogs and then go in random forums to try to convince random people that his theories are spot on?
Massive massive random random. Seems, this, thrsaymaque, is , automaton hasbarautobot, running, outdated ver1.1 OS. Reboot! Bleeeeerp. ,
Your words- "After ten years of serious research, why haven't 911 Truthers published even one article in a serious scientific peer-reviewed journal?" False. Here it is http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm
Furthermore, the vast majority of self-styled "truthers" are people like you-infiltrators, disinfobots, shills writing for the Sunstein/Zelikow cointelop.
Unlike you, I don't get paid by the word to generate hasbara. Anyone can find the Jones/Haritt paper with a simple search.
Your friends Mr. Jones and Mr. Haritt never published in a scientific peer-reviewed journal. They published their paper on a website, and made several talks at universities. After the talks, they were discredited and put on paid leave. Their claims have been debunked several times.
Could you give us the bibliography of the article of which you speak? What scientific journal? What date and page? The title of the article? Of course you can't because it does not exist!
This little piece of information might interest you.
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm
I don't get paid by the word for stuff I copy and paste, sorry to disappoint you.
Your hasbara post doesn't fool anyone, mate.
Good work! You've shown that I was wrong. 911 Truthers have at least published one article in a serious peer-reivewed journal. That's wonderful! Perhaps there are even a few more.
Now we just have to convince the other Truthers that we are like scientists, and not like conspiracy theorists. There's no need for our members to go around random forums and try to convince random people by spreading our links to our self-published blogs. We have to stop acting like David Icke followers and start acting like real scientists. Let's use the example of Mr. Jones. He doesn't waste his time on this forum trying to convince the unknowns. He understood that we must act like real scientists if we want to be considered on the same level as them.
Help me fight the good fight of the 911 Truth movement by convincing other members to follow Jones's way. We are committing self-suicide and it's embarrassing. We must stop scrubbing the bottom of the barrel. We are better than that! Damn, we are scientists. Why the hell are we abasing ourselves in this way! Iv'e been saying this in other forums for years. It's so hard for people to understand that we have the science. We do. We just need to stop delivering it in a way that makes us look so desperate.
Hahahahahaaaaaa -YOU are a scientist. Utterly hilarious. Thats why you're HERE, right? Tell me, what's your specialty, and where'dya get your degree (and that strange accent), Doc? ;)
I'm not a scientist. I never said I was. I am a Truther working on our marketing tactics. I'm trying to help our members understand that we have to act like scientists and not conspiracy theorists. The medium is the message, and right now our medium is the Internet when it should be serious publications. Jones understood this, and I'm hoping others will eventually. I studied marketing, not science.
Thr@sy : I'm posting the following links to provide references to curious readers but I don't wish to seen as "hurting the Truth movement by using this cheap method of marketing"!!!
a) Architects & Engineers for 9/!! Truth : http://www.ae911truth.org/ ,
b) Scholars for 9/!! Truth & Justice (2 sites) : http://st911.org/ ,
c) Re. WTC 7 : http://wtc7.net/ & http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/ ,
d) Citizens 9/!! Commission Campaign : http://9-11cc.org/ ,
You must already know that no amount of "marketing" will get the 'established' (='Establishment'!) science journals to accept 9/!! Truth Papers and any 'peers' reviewing any papers know that it is potential professional "self suicide" (Your tautology from your post to me!) to get involved.
fallaces sunt rerum species ...
False. The British Academy of Architecture and Engineering has welcomed talks on 9-11. You don't have to publish in American scientific peer-reviewed journals, can you publish in British journals, or in another country. Furthermore, you don't have to talk about 9-11, just publish your scientific discoveries. Don't kill the movement by trying to convince random people in random forums by posting dubious links. You're wasting your time. Don't be like David Icke, or people will compare you to him. Be like the scientists.
TM@que : False ?! How so ? & Which bit ? More seriously, I really think that you are being a little naive if you consider that any International science journals just by dint of NOT being American will carry 9/11 papers !!
Science is international and The "Scientific Establishment" particularly so and I repeat : "no amount of "marketing" will get the 'established' (='Establishment'!) science journals to accept 9/!! Truth Papers and any 'peers' reviewing any papers know that it is potential professional 'self suicide' (Your tautology from your post to me!) to get involved."
Further, I'm a born and raised in England and still live in the UK and though I'm aware of RIBA ( http://www.architecture.com/ ), ICE ( http://www.ice.org.uk/ ) and CIAT ( http://www.ciat.org.uk/ ), I do Not know of nor can I find any easy references to any "The British Academy of Architecture and Engineering". Are you sure that you don't mean The British Academy ( http://www.britac.ac.uk/ ) or The Royal Institution of Great Britain ( http://www.rigb.org ) ?
Finally, you bringing uber-wierdo, 'David Icke' into the conversation only reflects badly on you alone, as no one else on this thread or any other that I've seen on the matter on this forum, has mentioned him !
errare humanum est ...
Seems you have a Stephen Hawking fixation. I saw one of his posts on here just yesterday. Seems he is bored with peer-reviewed journals, enjoys scrubbing the bottom of the barrel with folks like you and me.
What I want to know is why aren't all the other serious scientists rolling around in wheelchairs with their heads bobbing off to one side, eating liquid food through a tube, mate? I mean surely they want to be taken seriously like Mr. Stephen Hawking!
Do you think it's a government conspiracy - don't you think it's strange they don't all do it-if they REALLY wanted to be taken seriously? Wheelchairs are available to everyone, afterall. Suspicious, to say the least.
All the serious scientists are publishing their papers in peer-reviewed journals. They are not scared of the critic. We shouldn't be either. We have what it takes, Jones proved it. It's time to start acting like serious scientists. There's no need for us to rummage around random forums to try to convince random people about our ideas. That's a waste of time and makes us look so desperate.
Look at you. You're a Truther like me and you're defending our position by making fun of people in wheelchairs. Don't you see that doesn't help our case. It is self-suicide, and it makes me so sad to see all our good work thrashed away like this. So sad.
Let's talk about the Talmud now, shall we. That is your operational manual, afterall. Surely you consider all types of discourse valuable, since the aim is to clarify and simultaneously obfuscate with sheer volumes of verbiage. No?
I never read the Talmud. I don't have much to say about it. You should talk to a rabbi. I'm an ignostic. Don't make assumptions like David Icke, make science like Stephen Hawking. Don't Icke it man!
Ignostic. Fantastic. Look that word up now. don't know this Icky -hes an associate of yours -a fellow hasbarat, I take it? Shalom
A basic enough concept; not too fantastic. Perhaps you should look it up? I assume you are confused with agnostic? Like I said above, don't Icke-it!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ignostic
Google and books are your friends. Shalom brother
I must repeat, don't Icke-it! Use the scientific method to do proper research. Your mind is yours and yours alone. Keep it sharp. Don't dull it with conspiracy theory type assumption collecting.
From your Jickepedia link: The word "ignosticism" was coined by Sherwin Wine, a rabbi and a founding figure of Humanistic Judaism.
Shouldn't surprise anyone.
Anyone still confused by Thrashers' obsessive need to spew nonsense simply review his profile. Lookup Cass Sunsteins counterintelligence activities post 9/11. And note Thrashers ability to waste space and time flapping about nothing and everything at once. What a waste-Thrastrawman has no brain. Awww;(
Ah yes! The easy David Icke conspiracy theory type associations. Connect this to that then this to that and voilà, truth is unveiled! No need for research, just build your castle of thought with assumptions. That's the way the conspiracy theorists do it. We have a good example up above. And he's an anti-semite to boot who laughs at people in wheelchairs. Good job Truthers! You are represented very well indeed. How sadly desperate your are for attention. Attention is what you need? Then fine, it's yours:
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-failure-to-investigate-911-has-bankrupted-amer/
Vandalism is SO you, Thrastrawman:). Be sure to check Thrastrawmans hissy fit of intellectual vandalism on the link he posts above. Now we are getting to the bottom of things. And he's a slanderous one at that, even brought out the A-bomb.
I know it SUCKS to be you, now that Sunstein and Zelikow insist upon making direct deposits of a more liquid variety, to such puny counterintelligence ASSets like yourself, rather than traditional cash-stuffed envelopes. Hard to pay the rent with such liquid, but then again, you know the drill -don't you. Slob slob, Sob sob;). Leaving you to roll around in your pornified Talmudic little post here. Everyone sees you for what you are, strawman.
How old are you 17? I'm asking seriously.
Building 7 is the most obvious evidence. It's like telling someone they can talk about something smelling fishy, just don't mention fish.
http://rememberbuilding7.org/
If that evidence is so strong, why not treat it well and publish it in a worthy publication. Why ruin your credentials and the merit of that evidence by making yourself look desperate enough to try to convince random people in random blogs? You're only hurting yourself and the movement every time you post here. Don't you see that? Don't be like David Icke or you'll be treated like him. Be like a scientist and publish great evidence where it deserves to be published. Don't Icke it man!
trust me, a lot more of us know that there was a cover up than you think...
Thr@sy : So, why have you brought IT up again ? Just so that you can repost your pictures - again ?! Tch!! + see above and any of ; http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/911/ ! fiat lux ...
Because I fear you are hurting the Truth movement by using this cheap method of marketing which involves trying to prove your claims to unknown users in random forums. You are committing self-suicide. You need to stop doing that, and publish your findings in serious publications. You should see that your method is not working. It's been ten years, and you haven't made any progress. fjolsivt's father should resubmit his paper. British peer-reviewed journals are a good platform. He should not talk about WTC7, but simply state his scientific discovery.
Mate, you've got me perplexed but 'Occupy' has 'other fish to fry', so I'll leave you to whatever it is you are up to here, with this tune from another uppity Brit : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZBefrTszxU !!
veritas vos liberabit ...
It's called hasbara, mate. This Zionist shill gets paid by the word, (sometimes by the mouthfull) by Phil zelikow and cass sunstein
"Don't mention Building 7". What part are you having trouble with?
Where did you get that quote from?
"Don't mention Building 7" is a paraphrase of what my father was told by the editors of the Journal of Structural Engineering.
Exactly! Your father doesn't need to mention Building 7 in his paper. He just needs to show the science. They were giving him a hint: "there is nothing wrong with your evidence, but don't mention Building 7". If there would have been a problem with the science, they would have told him. That's great news! It means your father should re-write his paper again and re-publish. And, remember, every time you self-publish on a self-hosted blog it means that article can't later be published in a peer-reviewed journal. They want new articles. Stop hurting the movement by trying to convince random people on random forums. Your making Truthers look like David Icke. Convince your father to re-submit his work. Devote your time to that instead of wasting it here. Good luck, and remember, don't Icke it man!
Building 7 is evidence. How do you miss this obvious point?
http://rememberbuilding7.org/foreknowledge/
The blatant clarity of the contradiction between the official story and the direct evidence is so stark that it confuses people. They can't believe something so obvious could be lied about.
WTC7 -- This is an Orange
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv7BImVvEyk
CONTROLLED DEMOLITION THEORIES HAVE PASSED PEER-REVIEW
Anders Björkman Published in "The Journal of Engineering Mechanics" Another Peer Reviewed Paper Published in Scientific Journal - 'Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust...' James Gourley Published in "The Journal of Engineering Mechanics" Kevin R. Ryan, James R. Gourley, and Steven E. Jones - Published in "The Environmentalist" 9-11 Truth Movement: Publication in a Peer-reviewed Civil Engineering Journal Dr. Crockett Grabbe published in "The Journal of Engineering Mechanics" 9/11 Debunkers Hide From Slam Dunk Evidence Of Controlled Demolition
Exactemento! Now you understand! Finally! We are scientists! We don't need to scrub the bottom of the barrel. We can act like scientists instead of conspiracy theorists. Scientists don't try to get the attention of random people in forums, that's what conspiracy theorists do! We have to stop making ourselves look so desperate. Look at Bofl. He's a good Truther, but he's making fun of people in wheelchairs in an attempt to support our movement in this forum in front of random people we don't even know. That's really bad marketing. Read his comment and tell me how that helps us! We have to stop posting in forums I tell you. We need to start being serious. Like scientists.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-are-911-truthers-scrubbing-the-bottom-of-the-b/#comment-476846
Maybe it's because those you call "the bottom of the barrel" are among the best people alive on this earth. People who want to change the world for the better. People who support or are part of Occupy.
We don't even know who these people are. If they were the best on earth, then scientists would be here too. Everyone with great ideas would be here. They aren't! They're spending their time discussing issues in universities and taking time to publish in serious journals. Look at us! We are in random forums trying to convince random people one by one. Don't you see. We look hyper desperate.
What do you think of Bofl ridiculing people in wheelchairs? Does that help our case?
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-are-911-truthers-scrubbing-the-bottom-of-the-b/#comment-476846
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. All progress, therefore, depends upon the unreasonable man." (George Bernard Shaw)
In the case of 9/!!, "the world" = "The Official 9/!! Conspiracy Theory" 'Believers' !!!
fiat lux ;-)
Seems you're making it up as u go, mate. Talmud style.
Journal of 9/11 Studies
Thank you for visiting The Journal of 9/11 Studies, a peer-reviewed, open-access, electronic-only journal, covering the whole of research related to the events of 11 September, 2001. Many fields of study are represented in the journal, including Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics and Psychology. All content is freely available online. Our mission in the past has been to provide an outlet for evidence-based research into the events of 9/11 that might not otherwise have been published, due to the resistance that many established journals and other institutions have displayed toward this topic. The intention was to provide a rapid acceptance process with full peer review. That has been achieved. It is now our belief that the case for falsity of the official explanation is so well established and demonstrated by papers in this Journal that there is little to be gained from accepting more papers here. Instead we encourage all potential contributors to prepare papers suitable for the more established journals in which scientists might more readily place their trust. Refereed papers have already been published in mainstream peer-reviewed journals: Fourteen Points...[Bentham] and Environmental Anomalies at the World Trade Center: Evidence for energetic materials [SpringerLink], and Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe [The Open Chemical Physics Journal] .
Further relevant papers are now in the peer-review cycle. We will continue for the time being to provide a service for researchers who wish to present a new finding or a new point of view but who feel that their contribution would not be suitable for a mainstream journal. We will also be happy to receive sound, substantial work which has nevertheless been rejected by others. However, due to the volume of work, there may be substantial delays in publication here in the future. Thank you for your interest in careful research.
Sincerely, Kevin Ryan and Frank Legge co-editors
Journal of 9/11 Studies is one of the best scholarly sources for 9/11 Truth. Did you forget the URL?
http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/b/PalastApologizestoDrJones.pdf
I'm having trouble opening the pdf, but I remember when that happened. Peter Dale Scott's work is worth reading. http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2007/ProfScottJFK,911,andWar.pdf
thanks
The fact that this journal exists shows how desperate Truthers are. How lame is it to create your own "peer-reviewed" journal? The answer is very lame. Serious scientists don't ruin their careers with such nonsense.
Honest people put Truth first. 9/11 was an inside job.
Can your lame father jet ski, or can he only submit crappy papers that get refused by the true scholars? Your unnamed lame father sounds like a lame person. Kind of like the tooth fairy. Do you like fairies? What about dragons and lame goblins?
Nano-thermite (thermate) was used to demolish the WTC.
Prove it to people who care. Publish a paper in a peer-reviewed scientific community so the scholars can talk about the subject and pose their critic. Saying this in a random forum to random people makes you look very weak and very desperate. How much fun it must be under the barrel with tall the worms and maggots. Do you have a maggot brain? What about your unnamed father?
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." ~ Eric Arthur Blair
What kind of peer-reviewed journal is that? It's highly biased. It's created by 9-11 Truthers for 9-11 Truthers. Calling a journal a peer-reviewed journal does not automatically make it a scientific unbiased peer-reviewed journal. You shouldn't have posted that. I just makes Truthers looks even more desperate.
Journal of 9/11 Studies. Has anybody submitted a responsible refutation of the content? They did publish a couple critical letters. I have conversed with all of the editors, and know them to be honest and sincere.
Nobody reads the content of self-published "scholars" except those very same scholars. There are no scientists who have time to waste with such garbage. Why refute something that couldn't be publish in a real peer-reviewed scientific journal; that's already a sign that it's nothing but crap.
The editors might be honest, but they are biased. That's the problem and it makes their publication worthless in the eyes of real scholars.
Information warfare is something you understand quite well. The reason we do things the way we do is because the MSM has been commandeered by the kleptocracy, but you know that already.
Someone with even a basic understanding of structure physics can understand in about 5 minutes the cause of the collapse of all three buildings. You can help yourself get over the conspiracy theories by going to a building that has collapsed due to fire, (there are thousands) and seeing for yourself what fire, even without jet fuel, does to steel.
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because they are right...
So they have to haunt random forums to convince random posters who they don't know to prove it?
no they don't - but still some will get suckered into a worthless, time consuming debate on some random blog with someone like yourself who is obviously only here to try and sabotage the discussions on this website in an effort to skew the truth in your hopeless attempt to keep more and more people from realizing that they are being manipulated by media.
The one percent obviously have the resources to pay a bunch of loser trolls to bombard this website with ridiculousness. and waste our time
I am not interested in skewing the truth. I don't believe truth can be skewed. I just post arguments. Unfortunately, I don't see the Truthers posting strong counter-arguments. You've done "research" for ten years but have nothing to show for it; zilch, nada. It's not my fault Truthers are considered lame and mentally ill like, they gave that impression all by themselves and continue to do so.
Look. alouis is so desperate, that now he's playing the racist card. He has nothing else to do. No evidence. So now he says the critics are caucasians, and the colored folks mostly believe. How pathetic and desperate is that? http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-are-911-truthers-scrubbing-the-bottom-of-the-b/#comment-481349
People with strong evidence for their claims don't have to resort to such methods. They can keep it scientific and publish in serious journals. You don't have that luxury, because you have not earned it with evidence of worth.
You guys have killed your own movement by acting like conspiracy theorists instead of serious scientists. Don't blame me for "skewing the truth".
you're wrong, there is much scientific evidence for controlled explosion. First of all most, if not all of the fuel was removed during impact, what do you think exploded, office chairs?
The people who lack scientific evidence are the ones that are spreading lies that it was some terrorist attack from the Taliban who are on American Payroll and have no interest in America, they can barely hang on to power in the Middle East, what the hell would they fight America for.
Have you also no common sense? So for 10 years we were to believe that we are under terrorist attack? Really? Whose mentally ill again? Want more proof, where are all the terrorist attacks? where are the terrorist shooting up malls and schools and businesses? Please, you and the other dum dum Americans are mentally ill with your pretend gods, terrorist and make believe.
Those responsible for the terrorist attacks would not dare continue attacks on Americans because they don't want to create a country of fear, fear of going to malls and buying crap because that would ruin our economy, plus they conned the peasants into giving their tax dollars to weapons building, construction and private "security" groups that they owned, Bush, Cheney and company...
Please, you know very little.
There have been many other terrorists attacks all over the world. A nightclub was attacked where I am living at the moment. You should know this.
I'm sorry my friend, but you are sick. Use the scientific method if you want to obtain proof. And, for God's sake, stop making yourselves look so desperate by trying to convince random people in random forums. You don't even know who I am. Publish your finds in serious journals. Act like scientists, or else you will always be considered as nothing more than David Icke want to bes.
oh yeah, terrorists attacked your night club?
haha, i don't need to prove anything to you, Peasant Americans, as citibank put it, already proved themselves to be clueless losers.
why don't you supply all the scientific evidence that says that all the buildings fell straight down from the airplane impacts, including the one that was never hit...
get a life.. you probably fat hairy guy that sucks cock... haha, believe whatever you want, you are worthless to anyone..
Learn to read. I never said my nightclub, I said a night club was attacked where I am living. You didn't hear about the Bali bomb?
Because you have the burden of proof to prove your conspiracy theory, and because I am not desperate like you to show random people I don't know on a random forum that I am right and you are wrong. You're the desperate one because you don't work like serious scientists, but like David Icke.
bla bla bla, i was on here a few weeks ago and you were harassing people then as well. we all know the truth already and we are taking action, your discussion here is meaningless, the fact that you seem to be here each day, all day, suggests that writing crap is actually your purpose.
want another "conspiracy"? this website and the movement are closely monitored by the tools of those about to lose all power and wealth and they are stinky desperate to try and stop the movement. stinky desperate enough to carry out another attack to get fear back into America, but they have to be careful not to make people too afraid, they need them to keep shopping, keep celebrating their economic holidays, etc.
they are desperate to use anything, they tried to make it seem as if christianity is under attack in an effort to get people to vote for their puppets, it's sad how desperate they are, because they are hopeless, and you are hopeless. you're on here trying desperately to sabotage. you need a life.
i have one so you won't be hearing from me, gonna get into a nice threesome with a couple of cute chicks, you christians and your pretend god allow this, lol... poor you.
I won't take "terrorism" seriously until these "terrorists" start shooing down planes as they try to land, blowing up restaurants and night clubs in all major cities, shooting up malls and basically, actually be terrorists, until then we all know who the real terrorists are, and we know what they can and can't do.
your just another desperate dum dum, go back to sucking up nascar fumes and murdering animals after church, don't forget to bring your guns to church with you, oh and pick up a some jewelry and things to hang off your mom's face and some perfume, she's ugly and stinks and can't leave the house without looking at herself and fixing the mess she is. Go American
I'm ignostic and anti-religious. Religions and conspiracy theories are mind diseases.
(last reply)
conspiracies like there are terrorists in afghanistan and all over the world, all over the US trying to "get us"? those kind of conspiracies?
loser
Disinformation alert - Just ignore this posting.
It's not disinformation. It's a legitimate question.
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Because they all know that it's just BS fear mongering conspiracy theory and they would be laughed out of there respected community if they did. It's no different than the BS global warming mongers who have all crawled back into there holes now that there emails have been released. On that, haven't seen Al Gore in a while since it was shown he made so much money from "Green" projects and uses 4 times the amount of energy in his house than most Americans.
Military, Intelligence and Government Patriots question 9/11
http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
Lt. Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter. U.S. Air Force fighter pilot with over 100 combat missions. (PhD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering, Cal Tech). Former Head of the Department of Aeronautical Engineering and Assistant Dean at the U.S. Air Force Institute of Technology. 22-year Air Force career. Also taught Mathematics and English at the University of Southern California, the University of Maryland, and Phillips University. •Member: Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth Association Statement:
"Scholars and professionals with various kinds of expertise---including architects, engineers, firefighters, intelligence officers, lawyers, medical professionals, military officers, philosophers, religious leaders, physical scientists, and pilots---have spoken out about radical discrepancies between the official account of the 9/11 attacks and what they, as independent researchers, have learned.
They have established beyond any reasonable doubt that the official account of 9/11 is false and that, therefore, the official “investigations” have really been cover-up operations.
Thus far, however, there has been no response from political leaders in Washington or, for that matter, in other capitals around the world. Our organization, Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth, has been formed to help bring about such a response.
We believe that the truth about 9/11 needs to be exposed now---not in 50 years as a footnote in the history books---so the policies that have been based on the Bush-Cheney administration’s interpretation of the 9/11 attacks can be changed.
We are, therefore, calling for a new, independent investigation of 9/11 that takes account of evidence that has been documented by independent researchers but thus far ignored by governments and the mainstream media."
Respected Leaders and Families 9/11 Truth Statement
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041026093059633
An alliance of 100 prominent Americans and 40 family members of those killed on 9/11 announced the release of the 911 Truth Statement, a call for immediate inquiry into evidence that suggests high-level government officials may have deliberately allowed the September 11th attacks to occur. The Statement's list of signatories includes notables spanning the political spectrum, from Presidential candidates Ralph Nader, Michael Badnarik, and David Cobb to Catherine Austin Fitts, a member of the first Bush administration, as well as Washington veterans like Pentagon whistleblower Daniel Ellsberg and retired CIA analyst Ray McGovern. Other signers range from peace activists like Code Pink co-founder Jodie Evans and Global Exchange's Kevin Danaher to former US Ambassador and Chief of Mission to Iraq, Edward L. Peck; from environmentalists like Randy Hayes and John Robbins to business leaders such as Paul Hawken and Karl Schwarz, CEO of Patmos Nanotechnologies; from populist journalist Ronnie Dugger to renowned investigative reporter Kelly Patricia O'Meara. The Statement also includes 43 noted authors, including New York Times #1 bestseller John Gray, as well as 18 eminent professors, historians, and theologians. Other notables include five-term Georgia Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney, singers Michelle Shocked and Michael Franti, and actors Ed Asner and Mimi Kennedy.
The '9/11 truthers' have many websites and a couple of films. Despite their evidence, they are labeled conspiracy theorists with ridicule and many people won't listen to a single word they say. A journal wouldn't help.
Thrasymaque == one demented liar
Where and when did I lie? Are you just making assumptions again like your friend David Icke?
What are you talking about ? I guess "The Open Chemical Physics Journal" doesn't count?
http://www.benthamscience.com/open/tocpj/articles/V002/7TOCPJ.htm?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM
I guess "The Environmentalist" doesn't count? http://www.springerlink.com/content/f67q6272583h86n4/
Were you just hoping that people were too ignorant to do a google search and find these papers?
http://journalof911studies.com/
Exactly! You don't have to make yourselves look desperate by scrubbing the bottom of the barrel. You should do like Jones and publish your ideas in serious journals!
While everyone is all over the place speculating here's my two cents. The buildings collapsed because, I believe, they were shoddy constructions. The construction industry, at the time they were built in NYC, was heavily influenced by the mob families. I suspect the concrete was watered down and the steel was of poor quality to skim profits from the construction. The planes hit the towers and the poor construction aide in their collapse. There is no secret gov't conspiracy going on here. Please. It's more simple. Poor materials and poor construction and a huge impact.
What about the Men in Black? Where do you fit them in this puzzle?
I science experiment should be repeatable
i believe most of them are ill educated and know something is not copacetic with the status quo so they concoct elaborate, non capitalistic, nonrepublic ideas that make it easier to cope. they just can't get behind the Idea that the one percent exists because as a nation we fell a sleep. Kinda like the USSR did during the lead up to the Korean war. After the USSR boycotted the UN, America had free rein to invade Korea. If they would have voted then the Korean war would not have happened. if we, as a nation, would take our civic duties more seriously then we would not have a wealth gap so huge. IMO
http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-i-just-dont-believe-the-government-or-why-cant/
I love 9-11 truthers. Talk abuot clear stupidity. All conspiracy theorist are exactly the same, they are generally highly unsuccessful, moderate IQ, and are worthless. They think that they know some secret that nobody else does, so that alone in their mind makes them feel important. It is a mental disorder.
Bottom of the barrel. Hmmm, so Occupy members supporters, and those simply wanting to learn are the bottom of the barrel. This is typical whiteboy schoolboy arrogance.
http://coupmedia.org/the-sovereign-peoples-movement/6-re-investigate-the-attacks-of-9-11-2001.html
As one commenter has said 911 is the before and after event of our lifetimes. It will never go away from people's feelings and thoughts. While Occupy need not take an official position I'd advise care in how you approach this issue. Don't place yourself foursquare with the 911 liars.
The whiter, richer "conservativer" and more " edumicated" they are the more likely they are to accept the story about the Arabs with the boxcutters calling off the US air-force and the pentagon's defenses, these feats done on the orders of another Arab who was hiding in a cave in Afghanistan..
The more liberal (like many OWers), less white, poorer, more experienced with the brutality and duplicity of the PTB and life near the bottom of the capitalist pyramid they are the more likely to doubt the official story. That's all over the world by the way.
I'd advise OW members not to ridicule the 911 truth in the faces of people who are turning to you but don't believe the hype. Don't mock their opinions, not even those who actually believe that the PTB must not be human, and who notice that the PTB act like lizards, and believe they have secret societies (as though there could be such things!)
OW has the right not to embrace 911 Truth, and it might even be the best political decision to make .And of course you're not going to talk about lizard people and no, I don't believe in lizard people, just people who seem to act like lizards.. I'd advise you though not to ridicule too hard. For one, you're wrong about 911. For another, oppressed people are growing to respect OW. Don't disrespect what many of them believe.
Did you watch Stephen Hawking's recent show? Not a scientific journal but it makes some bizarre claims about space and time travel that I personally believe to be a fantasy far greater than suggesting various sectors of the government, who are obviously under the control of the military industrial complex, would act in it's own self interest. Personally I don't believe that it is a conspiracy or inside job. In all likelihood our government was just exposed as the piper tiger that it has always been hence our ridiculous reaction to being attacked.
End game...
I have a friend - who is very wise - very world knowledgeable - very well travelled - very well educated - he's NOT a religious fanatic -
but if you told him the easter bunny and elmer fudd conspired to make the sky blue - he would say - yes - of course!
Other than this quirk - seeing conspiracies everywhere - hes a great guy -
I really don't understand the "religious" attraction to conspiracies
The religious and conspiracy theory mind frames are not the same, but they have some points in common. Both eschew the scientific method. Both start by affirming the truth, then try to fit all the "evidence" to support said truth. Both cannot and will not accept anything but the truth they have affirmed. They do not accept doubt; one of the most important aspects of science. They are not concerned about finding the truth, because they already claim to possess it. They are only concerned by proving that this "truth" is exists by any means they can conjure up. They both want to share their message to save the others from great torment. They both claim to have special knowledge that others don't.
Look at this post from alouis: http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-are-911-truthers-scrubbing-the-bottom-of-the-b/#comment-481349
He is so desperate to prove the critics wrong, that he is now playing the racist card. The critics of the Truth movement are predominantly caucasian he tells us. Colored folks believe just fine he tells us. He's squirming and twisting in despair. It's very similar to Creationists who became Intelligent Design proponents out of desperation for acceptance. They too have died a horrible death. The Truth movement is already dead, but the proponents are still trying to resuscitate it with all the desperate means they can imagine. It's absolutely pathetic.
your reply is very enlightening - fits well except he is very not anti-science - he just adds science facts to make science fiction I have a bunch of anti-loose change videos - very sad they just cling to fictions
Truthers are anti-scientific, but they try to hide it. The reason they don't publish in peer-reviewed journals is because they have no science. They use an extremely dubious research method.
The ones making the conspiracy theories like David Icke know exactly what they are doing. They are very smart. They do it to sell books and make a lot of money. The ones that follow them are gullible pimpled faced teenagers who get hard-ons everything these people come up with another bad thing the secret government agents did. Sometimes their hard-ons are such that they don't get out of their mothers' basements when super is ready. They stay hidden and look for more and more information until the early morning hours of the night. They are like little MatLock want to bes. They don't have many friends. It's sad. I think they suffer from a type of brain disease. Cervica absurda.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq37.html
http://www.rense.com/general25/fb.htm
there are legitimate questions. stop being a dick.
More lame articles that do not use the scientific method. Sorry, but the Truthers movement is dead in the water. If you can't understand how it makes Truthers look desperate by rummaging random forums to find users to post their links to self-published articles on their self-hosted crappy webpages, then the only thing I can say is that you don't understand how real academics work.
ah yes. my defense of their right to speak makes me an idiot. you are living proof that education does not lead to intelligence.
It's not me nor you who decides if they have a right to speak, it's the people who run this website. They have made it very clear they do not want discussions around the topic of conspiracy forums. There are tons of dedicated forums for this on the Internet, this is not one of them.
I will keep vandalizing their pages. If you don't like that than I suggest you complain to the moderators. I'll also vandalize your pages when you spam your annoying link.
well it's a good thing you're here to show us all the error of our ways. what would we do without you. i'm not in the habit of complaining to mods. i'm a big boy.
If you're a big boy, then don't complain. I don't know what you would do without me. Most likely, you would keep posting the garbage that you do. Hopefully, I can limit that to some extent. And make you think a little bit in the process.
Are you still looking for pro bono writers so that you can make money on their backs?
For the betterment of manmind!
aww, lashing out. how cute. yeah, big boy. thats why i take my complaint right to you. not worried about your attempts to discredit. as you can see, people see right thrue it.
I thought you said you were a big boy. Why are you still complaining?
"Thrue it?" Is that Shakespeare period English? Go back to school young man!
34 young? cool. yeah, still complaining about you trying to squash free speech. you bet. that isn't going to change.
Iv'e been programming since I was 8 years old. Started on a ZX81. I'm working full time as lead programmer for a company in the States. Please stop making assumptions. Don't David Icke it. You're better than that.
I also have a pull request for this site coming up which is specifically targeting spammers as yourself.
do it. don't talk about. jump in with both feet. hit my site while you're at it so i can have a good laugh. http://richardkentgates.com
Indeed you are right. If you think I'm a dick you haven't seen anything yet. I just prepared a little Javascript program designed to do major defacing. I'll be launching it on your posts soon.
I also think you are a major dick for creating 20 or so users that you use to vote up your own posts. That's a lame dick. Very very lame dick.
please feel free. if you think you got what it takes, do it up homie. you don't have a fkn clue you poser. you couldn't hack a fkn wordpress site.
If you want free speech to be more important than forum rules designed to keep users on topic, then don't stifle free speech in anyway. Don't be a complaining wimp. Anything goes. I am free to post whatever images in whatever way I want. That is my free speech.
it is your right to be a dick i suppose. and my right to tell you that you are being a dick.
Well then, don't complain. I'm keeping the lunatics here at bay by expressing my freedom of speech to post anything I want. That includes posting images. That is my expression of free speech. You can stop complaining now. It seems true freedom of speech is not important to you. You are unwilling to back your words by letting me post whatever I want on your site. Lame. The only that interests you is limiting free speech. That you for bumping my thread.
you're the one that decided to go off the deep end when i extended my hand. and i'm not knocking your posting of images. i'm protesting the demeaning manner you have used to address them. disorderly conduct and verbal assault isn't covered under free speech. neither is harassment.
Just give me an account. I can setup a blog in 5 minutes. I will purchase the domain citycommonssucks.org after you have provided me an account and let me post anything I want. That's not a problem. Don't worry about that now. Just sent me a private message with my account username and my password. I'll start posting later on today. I have a music practice in 20 minutes. Thanks. I'm happy you are willing to show the world the importance of free speech.
yeah, our writers have free speech. unfortunately for you, our vetting process is such as to keep the lunatics at bay.
I want to be in your top stories. My posts will be about conspiracy theories and against city commons. I'll talk about how you try to suppress my freedom of speech on this site by asking me to stop posting what I want, to stop expressing myself. I'll talk about your spamming habits. I'll talk about Reptilian Overlords, etc... I'll use a fake name and a fake photo. My posts will be design so that when you search Google for citycommons my articles will come up first. Sometimes, I'll just post random garbage like porn. What kind of porn do you like? I'm thinking of posting a lot of midget donkey porn. It's important to show that your site represents total freedom of speech. Anything goes.
I don't want you to filter what I can post, so give me direct access. No need for me to send you emails you will screen. I have to be free like on this website to post as much as I want, whatever I want, whenever I want. You'll have to give me a user account from which I can post stuff directly on city commons. It has to be like on this site.
This is the best way for you to prove the importance of free speech. If you are willing to let me post anything on your site, then we have a deal.
lol. called your bluff. whatever dude. your participation in this movement is worthless if you can't act like an adult and stand behind your ideals. the world has enough spineless cowards already.
The funniest thing about your argument is that you don't realize I am only expressing my freedom of speech. Anyone can post anything they want here. The moderators are not enforcing their rules. Posting images to flood a forum post I find worthless my form of free speech. Just down vote my speech if you don't like it. Don't try to suppress my right to express what I want.
Give me access to write directly on your site. A small section perhaps. Give me free reign to post anything I want. When you do, I will stop vandalizing this site.
The other way is to get the moderators to change their rules.
Don't be a wimp. Promote free speech on your site by letting people post directly on City Commons like people can post directly here. If you can't do this or won't, then stop complaining that off-topic posts on this site get vandalized or eliminated. Every site can have its own rules. That's not limiting freedom of speech. You can't understand this because you have a bean sized brain.
oh, and you need to actually have a blog if you want on for the long haul. readers need to be able to interact with our writers.
admin@citicommons.com you will need to email me from your google account(gmail). if you are serious, a photo for your profile on the contributors page would be nice too. if not, and you just want a test drive, indicate that in the email so i don't waste my time adding you to the Top Stories and Contributors pages.
If you think discussing conspiracy theories is on topic, why not ask the moderators to change their forum rules?
I'm willing to stop vandalizing posts concerning conspiracy theories and spam posts like yours which advertise other websites under one condition. You have to show us that freedom of speech trumps the idea of remaining on topic. Create a post inviting all conspiracy theorists and people with websites to advertise to send you their articles then publish them on your city commons site. Once you have at least 10 published articles on conspiracy theories and 10 published articles promoting other websites, then I'll stop vandalizing off-topic posts in this forum. You also have to publish two posts from myself: One on conspiracy theories, and one promoting another site. (If you publish these articles, but then retract them, it will not count.)
It's up to you. The ball is in your court. Show us that freedom of speech is more important than the idea of remaining on topic. Open your website to all who wish to publish whatever they want. Lead the way. Be the example for Internet free speech.
lol. i do. i don't actually post anything except under my page. if you read, it tells you who posted it. the site is built on google sites and all i do is set up a page for them and give them page level permissions, they sign in with their google account. what they do with it is up to them. i don't agree with some of the material posted but what i like only matters on my page. all i ask is they sight anything defamatory so we don't look like jackasses. we aren't a bunch of fktards out for attention. google ads don't make what you imagine and are there to pay for the cost of the project and future advertising of it. if you took more time to research before ASSuming you would have figured all of this out.
Conspiracy theories are not allowed on this site. Here, try a test. Go to your local university then enter a seminar on music history. Then talk about area 51 and Lazar. When the teacher asks you to remain on topic, just say "What? You guys don't allow freedom of speech?". You'll look like a moron, but it will help you understand the difference between freedom of speech and remaining on topic. This website does not permit conspiracy theory nonsense for a reason. It's off topic!
i admit, that was a fun example. and while telling people that the lizard men from alpha zentari are taking over is equally amusing, accusing the government of false flags and/or cover-ups is not as off topic or conspiratorial as you imply. you may be blurring the line between the two just a bit to make your argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin
these are proven instances. the practice of blowing a subject out of proportion to make anyone talking about it look like they are nutters is also pretty common.
It's not about free speech. You only think it is because you have such a simple deficient mind.
if it isn't free speech, what is it? inform my simple deficient mind.
US supremacists cannot accept 12 guys with box knifes took the WTC down.
You got to be kidding?
Your playing your game again.
1.) 911 is not about truth. 2.) 911 FREAKS, are un-educated morons 99% of the time, 3.) 911 is a business to sell books and TV show ( ventura ) just like JFK did 50 years ago
If you haven't found 'truth' in ten years it will never be found.
My suggestion is if your sincere do the Moses thing and go do it alone, what is the point of belonging to a club where 99% of its members are morons? Working in public on 911 will only attract nut-cases, or haven't you figure that out by now?
Is 9/11 being an inside job a pyramid scheme?
Uh, Stephen Hawking COULD publish his discoveries on a blog... cause he's in on the conspiracy as well. Him and EVERYONE ELSE!
There are INDIVIDUALS within OWS that act in this way, but it can in no way represent the vastness and diversity of the entire 99%. Nor can you derive a realistic expectations Bout the group as a whole based on the behaviors of a few.
I just wanted to add to your words here weepngwillo2, not that I think they need it.... But....WHY would anyone waste anyone's time with this? If you don't believe someone, fine. If you wish to refute them, jump on their threads, and do so, with reason and fact, science and discourse. If they refuse the evidence you present, deny your critical thinking, or you arrive at an impasse... so be it. Let others, read the debate, add to the discourse, add to the debate, and further ourselves.... A thread, that essentially says.... "your all crazy people that believe lies".....well....what could this possibly accomplish?
I think this is distraction...naught more....whether intentionally or not, it clearly serves no function, nor does it in any way 'add' to our communal knowledge, tolerance, or wisdom.
I think the author of this thread, could use what appears to be a quite agile mind, to further mankind, and us here, by focusing instead on what occupy could stand for, what could be done, what could be accomplished.
Fighting for reason is always important. There are many conspiracy theory threads on this forum, and many OWS protesters spend their valuable time debunking these conspiracy theorists even though they have been debunked long ago. My hope is that next time these protesters simply link to this post which is a strong general debunk against conspiracy theories instead of wasting time making a point by point debunk. Content comes from from. If the form is faulty, then the content will also be. If conspiracy theorists use a flawed methodology (they do), then we know the results will also be flawed.
It's NEAT how the Zionist who posted this and his sockpuppets get all bent out of shape...playing goalie here-trying to convince random people-doing the very thing they accuse "truthers" of doing. NEATO GUYS!
Your published peer-reviewed paper, mate - http://tinyurl.com/3puff4u
I never implied this. I don't think OWS is represented by conspiracy theorists in any way shape or form. Most OWS protesters I have talked to were reasonable and intelligent individuals.
Where's your father now. I have a friend that works for the NY Times. We can set up an interview. Liar.
Because Truthers don't have degrees in Science or Engineering.
and you do? or are you against investigation of facts? want to explain it all for us, since you apparently know, include explanations for the 10 years after as well, ol' wise one.
The same people were giving us R O N - P A U L 24/7 last week, this week its 911 theory's for what? R o n P a u l for what?
What is next abortion? Global Warming ...?
Why is it that BANKER's is totally ignored?
Why have you 911 assholes not created your own "OCCUPY WTC" and go fucking rot there?
Why does ZSP keep the boring 911 topic alive? :)
I'm a 9-11 Truther who is trying to save the movement from self-suicide. We need to stop looking like fools by trying to prove ourselves to people we don't know on random forums by linking to our own self-published articles in our own self-published blogs. We are killing the very movement we so believe in! It's an atrocity. It must be stopped.
We are using the same techniques that the likes of David Icke are using to spread this lunacies of Reptilian Overlords. The Truth movement is not a conspiracy theory, so we must not work in the same way as the conspiracy theorists. We must work like scientists to show the world that we are scientists. We must stop destroying our own selves!
@ Thrasymaque :
a) http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-explosive-evidence-experts-speak-out/ ;
b) http://scientistsfor911truth.org/ ;
c) http://www.ae911truth.org/ ;
d) http://stj911.org/ &
e) http://st911.org/ .
IF you really are a 'Science Based Truther' (as I too like to see myself!), then why aren't you promoting sites like the ones above ?
Pour moi, WTC 7 est la clef ... peut-etre ?
Et toujours la politesse s'il vous plait !
Joyeaux Noel et Bon Annee ;-)
You got to be kidding?
Your playing your game again.
1.) 911 is not about truth. 2.) 911 FREAKS, are un-educated morons 99% of the time, 3.) 911 is a business to sell books and TV show ( ventura ) just like JFK did 50 years ago
If you haven't found 'truth' in ten years it will never be found.
My suggestion is if your sincere do the Moses thing and go do it alone, what is the point of belonging to a club where 99% of its members are morons? Working in public on 911 will only attract nut-cases, or haven't you figure that out by now?
Zsp ( thramasque ) brings up a good point, FYI zsp means zionst-sock-puppet, of which he has on his tombstone.
The fact is that the 'scientists' that are mentioned, not in journals but by the nut-cases like linda-bitch that so many here are fond to post, ... the fact is their science weak.
In the below while I like this guy, I don't really think a structural engineer even if the story is true is good representation to the inane arguments of the 911 truth movement.
The fact is scientific journals don't let anybody publish political crap, by definition science wants to stay out of this shit, this is why legitimate science folk refuse to accept nut-case popular science. They do not want to de-legitimize themselves. Fact.
One of my favorite science arguments of 911-truth is that fuel wasn't hot enough to burn steel, that thermite bombs had to be pre-placed,... but as anybody who has ever played with a blow-torch knows you can cut steel like butter with a tiny bit of oxygen and any kind of fuel ( shit ).
The problem with virtually everything and every argument written for 911-truthers is that it is complete and total fucking garbage science.
So pray tell why do you expect to be respected by anybody in the intelligent world??
Like I have already postulated the majority of the USA public is about as smart as a rock, by design after 18,000 hours of USA TV. These pathetic idiot morons MUST be told that 'reptilian-overlords' working in outer space took over the SHRUB(bushes brain), and had is team plant 'thermite bombs' in every building near WTC. The patiently waited for the sock-puppet Arab's who were promised unlimited pussy in the after-life to fly the planes into the two towers, and then they (team-bush) set off the bombs. ...
The obvious is OBVIOUS, the man himself who designed the WTC towers had a B727 in mind when he designed the buildings over 30 years ago in TelAviv. He never considered the enormous fuel that a B767 could carry. That fuel and the presence of oxygen vaporized the steel, and the collapsing floor weight above jack-hammered the buildings down. Fact.
But real science cannot be considered in the world of obfuscation and and lies, ... sure your USA government lies to you, 24/7 your mushrooms fed shit, your body is mostly water, and your value to your government is a BIG fucking ZERO in the economic sense.
But your government is NOT DUMB they have the smartest people they can buy, we have the most expensive whores in the USA running our government, and the experts all advised that the majority be told a lie.
Same with Area-51 in Nevada, for 50+ years everyone went along with the lie about little green men, cuz they would prefer disinformation to truth.
Same now with 911, disinformation is preferred to truth, this is how you keep the mushrooms in the shit.
Your government would prefer that you spent ALL your time talking about 911-truth, little green men, ZSP's penis, or some bullshit on fox-news.
The last thing your government wants is for the people to organize and revolt, even though the constitution say's you can.
You say - science journals don't let people publish political crap. I don't think how or why a building collapsed is political. If there is evidence I don't see why a scientific journal should have an problem publishing that.
You say "world of obfuscation and lies". What world are you talking about? That sounds a little paranoid.
Operation (9/11) Blackout
http://world911truth.org/operation-blackout/
On April 3rd, 2009 one of the most important and explosive scientific paper was released by scientists from 3 countries. The paper is entitled “Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe” and demonstrates that unignited explosive residues were found in the dust of the World Trade Center collapse. This highly advanced nano-size explosive called nanothermite, which is not made in a cave in Afghanistan but rather in US defense contractor labs, could be responsible for the destruction of the Twin Towers and Building 7 on September 11, 2001.
This information is not to be taken lightly. It could change the official story of 9/11 entirely. And although this paper was recently handed to Vice President Joe Biden, to White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs and to several Congresspeople, on record and on video (thanks to WeAreChange), no one in the White House or Congress seems to think these findings are important. Moreover, no major media has ever reported on this story other than a few media in Denmark and Russia.
This person has clearly shown us why the USA educational system is a complete and dismal failure. :(
I hear that Call-Center-India has a Prize of Viagra today?, that if you make your quota of 1,000 posts on OWS-FORUM you get you 4 little blue pills.
You are the one with the paranoia. How intelligent is that?
And the rest of what you said is just rude and thoughtless. Oh and it doesn't even make any sense either. How come Viagra comes to mind. Use it much? Oh you need to, so sorry. Don't ever talk to me again. You're a total random weirdo.
Here's a bit of info I got from a loose change refuter -
the reason the steel skeleton melted - was capitalist greed!
the steel was coated with a very significant fire proofing layer
it needed to be reapplied every few years - but in order
to SAVE MONEY - they postponed doing it
so the steel melted
I would not swear this is true - but you might want to check it out
Open fire can't melt steel. The kind of fires that burned in the WTC after the plane impacts could not have melted steel. The numerous reports and forensic evidence of molten steel probably represent, to a large extent, molten iron.
But even more contrary to the idea that office fires demolished the buildings are the examples of solidified molten concrete.
http://www.archive.org/details/NewYorkPoliceMuseumWtcGunsMelted
There's no reason the scientific discoveries of the Truthers needs to be wrapped up in a political discourse. They don't need to talk about the towers and 9-11 in their papers, they just need to present their science in an unbiased way. There are peer-reviewed journals in many countries. I'm sure they could find one that would accept their new discoveries if they are presented adequately.
The 9/11 truth is like a web. You get tossed all over the place, but around the outside is vague God-like descriptions, like "Cover up", "Planted Information", "historic records", "Brain washed", "Illuminati"... who knows what other excuses. Once you reach a point of debate, they put up the shields.
If you can prove, beyond reasonable doubt that a plane hit the pentagon, with photo's, eye witness testimony and film, they just go after all the little misconceptions and tidbits the media said in error shortly after. The whole conspiracy is basically grounded in bad information given out form the media before anything was conclusive.
Once you exit the realm of logic, they just try to convince you that everything is part of a grander scheme. It's just an ongoing, never ending, giant plot, that started at the beginning of time and it's going to come to a conclusion in their life time, because they witnessed 9.11.
I'm in all honestly, far more concerned about the environment than I am with the '9.11 reinvestigation'.
Well said. Very true indeed.
ZSP its not clear to me you know anything about 'science', but I'm a scientist, and everything I have read from these 911 truther's their science is crap, ..
Like the above, that person who say's "Why can't sci papers be political?" Where do you find these people when you hire them?
That is what is the worst about 911-truthing to me, is you have the morons accepting its as gospel, and you have the scientists running and vomiting. It's like its all designed so that the two party's NEVER come together, talking to a 911-truther about science is like talking to a jeebus-freak about the earth being 4 billion years old.
911-truther's don't care about science, and jeebus-freaks know the earth is 4,000 years old and everybody else is full of shit.
In science we operate from first-principals we spend maybe 4-8 years learning first principals, then specialize, but all our theorys are based on these foundations.
911 truthers have no foundation, they can't discuss science because they have no training, ditto for jeebus-freaks you can't talk about science, astronomy, or geology with a jeebus-freak, its impossible.
The only reason scientists can talk is common foundational education, which takes about 20 years of hard work.
The average USA moron, all he has 18,000 hours of TV, of which most is OPRHA, or equivalent, ...
In summary NO real scientist can have a discussion with an idiot, its impossible.
Just couldn't resist.
What you need to know about "Peer-review"
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20090408155422238
Useful information for "non-scientists" about the process of peer-reviewed publishing, such as has been the case with Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe, Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction, and Environmental Anomalies at the World Trade Center: Evidence for Energetic Materials . – Ed.
April 7, 2009 Steven Jones 911blogger.com Since the days of Sir Isaac Newton, Science has proceeded through the publication of peer-reviewed papers. Peer-review means a thorough reading, commentary and even challenge before publication by "peers", that is, other PhD's and professors. This paper was thoroughly peer-reviewed with several pages of tough comments that required of our team MONTHS of additional experiments and studies. It was the toughest peer-review I've ever had, including THREE papers for which I was first author in NATURE. (Please note that Prof. Harrit is first author on this paper.) We sought an established journal that would allow us a LONG paper (this paper is 25 pages long) with MANY COLOR IMAGES AND GRAPHS. Such a scientific journal is not easy to find. Page charges are common for scientific journals these days, and are typically paid by the University of the first or second author (as is the case with this paper) or by an external grant.
A peer-reviewed journal is also called a "refereed" journal. Peer-reviewers are almost always anonymous for scientific publications like this -- that is standard in the scientific world. While authors commonly recommend potential peer-reviewers, editors choose the referees and usually pick at least one or two reviewers that the authors did NOT mention -- and that is almost certainly the case with this paper (based on commentary we received from the reviewers). In the end, all the reviewers -- who were selected by the editor(s) -- approved publication. Thus, the paper was subjected to peer review by the editor or editors, and it passed the peer-review process.
Debunkers may raise all sorts of objections on forums, such as "Oh, it's just paint" or "the aluminum is bound up in kaolin." We have answered those questions in the paper, and shown them to be nonsense, but you have to read to find the answers. I may also provide answers here and in emails, often quoting from the paper to show that the answers are already in it.
Here's what you need to know (especially if you are not a scientist): UNLESS AN OBJECTOR ACTUALLY PUBLISHES HIS OR HER OBJECTION IN A PEER-REVIEWED ESTABLISHED JOURNAL (yes that would include Bentham Scientific journals), THEN THE OBJECTION IS NOT CONSIDERED SERIOUS IN THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY. YOU SHOULD NOT WORRY ABOUT NON-PUBLISHED OBJECTIONS EITHER.
So how do you, as a non-scientist, discern whether the arguments are valid or not? You should first ask, "is the objection PUBLISHED in an ESTABLISHED PEER-REVIEWED JOURNAL?" If not, you can and should say -- "I will wait to see this formally published in a refereed scientific journal. Until then, the published peer-reviewed work by Harrit et al. stands. "
BTW, there also has been no PUBLISHED REFEREED paper yet that counters either the "Fourteen Points" paper or the "Environmental Anomalies" papers we published last year.
IF it is so easy to publish in Bentham Scientific journals, or if these are "vanity publications" (note: there is no factual basis for these charges) -- then why don't the objectors write up their objections and get them peer-reviewed and published?? The fact is, it is not easy, as serious objectors will find out.
Our results have passed the gauntlet of peer-review (including in this case, review at BYU consistent with the fact that there are two authors from BYU).
We say that this paper has the "imprimatur of peer-review". That is a significant breakthrough. You cannot say that of big-foot or Elvis sightings... We are now in a different world from such things, the world of the published scientific community. CAN YOU APPRECIATE THE DIFFERENCE? I hope so. And this is what has our opponents so worried IMO...
Source URL: http://911blogger.com/node/19780
This goes both ways, and supports my point exactly. Objectors like myself are useless because we are objecting against proposers who are also useless. Both myself and the Truth proposers are publishing in random forums to random people. We both look absolutely desperate.
Truthers are working like the conspiracy theorists. They self-publish their articles in self-made blogs then hunt random forums to convince random people to follow their links and read their articles. Then they make self-published books to sell for money.
We must stop this! We need to act like scientists! If we don't, then of course people will compare us to the conspiracy theorists because we are using their exact methods! We should be emulating the way scientists work so that people compare us to them instead.
The source you use if from 911blogger. Self made blogs by Truthers. Don't you see how this makes us looks so desperate. Then you come here and waste your time trying to convince me. You have no idea who I am, so why do you care if I believe in what you have to say. You're scrubbing the absolute bottom of the barrel! You're committing self-suicide and destroying our beloved movement!
When I first came upon this website i was decided not to violate the prohibition on mention of 911 "conspiracy." It was only after seeing posts and comments on both sides of the question, over and over that I was convinced that this prohibition is not really in effect.
Of course, if one believes that 911 changed the world for the worse, and that its perpetrators are hiding, perhaps in plain sight, one wants to participate in the spreading of the truth. 911 Truth is also infested with agents and nut jobs.
http://coto2.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/cognitive-infiltration-an-obama-appointees-plan-to-undermine-the-911-conspiracy-theory/
Summing up:
" Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe, Fourteen Points of Agreement with Official Government Reports on the World Trade Center Destruction, and Environmental Anomalies at the World Trade Center: Evidence for Energetic Materials . " WAS PUBLISHED IN A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL.
Where is the peer reviewed rebutal? "Bye ziosockpup
An analysis of the entire garbage removed from the site might very well have included ever compound to man, give that a large number of condom's were probably incinerated where are those arguing the WTC was really a whore-house?
Shit I could imagine that in the dust of the WTC every possible compound since the time of Adam&Eve might be found, not since the flood of Noahs Ark have so many treasures been there to be found. So thermitic dust was found true or false who gives a fuck, the argument is that massive thermite bombs were placed in advance, and thus the origin of thermite. That said this all goes back to the lie, on top of lie, on top of lie, ... lets go back to square one, the premise of the Thermite bomb was that there wasn't enough heat in the air-fuel to melt steel, bull fucking shit.
There was plenty of fuel & oxygen to vaporize the steel, it happens everyday in the welding & cutting biz, yet the 911-Freaks continue to teach other morons that the melting temperature of steel exceeds the temperature of the sun and thus a Thermite Bomb from Supermans own Kryptonite Cave had to have been place in advance, and in fact we even found Trace-Dust in Parts per billion of Kryptonite to PROVE that Superman was beating the willy prior to aircraft impact,.... and it goes on and on.
The problem is that this is an ineffective way to spread our truthful science. It only harms us. Do you not see this? People like Richard Dawkings don't go around random forums posting at random users to try to convince them that religion is bad by linking to their own self published blogs. Is doesn't work that way! I'm a 9-11 Truther myself, and I'm ashamed that we are killing our own movement by making ourselves look so desperate! Let's stop scrubbing the bottom of the barrel! We are much better than that! We need to aim high because we are scientists. Only publish in peer-reviewed journals.
911 is of course very political. This website is political. Whether or not the US government was involved in and if so to what extent is relevant to the question of the very legitimacy of this state. You are probably more active than I am in keeping posts related to 911 near the top of the pile here. Why is that?
I am a 9-11 Truther who believes we must stop acting like conspiracy theorists. That's why I try to destroy or ridicule posts relating to 9-11. We are getting compared to the likes of David Icke because we act like him. We must stop this nonsense. We have to keep quiet on web forums, and publish our serious work in serious publications. We are just making ourselves look desperate by publishing here.
" We are just making ourselves look desperate by publishing here.''
CONTROLLED DEMOLITION THEORIES HAVE PASSED PEER-REVIEW
What you need to know about "Peer-review" Anders Björkman Published in "The Journal of Engineering Mechanics" Another Peer Reviewed Paper Published in Scientific Journal - 'Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust...' James Gourley Published in "The Journal of Engineering Mechanics" Kevin R. Ryan, James R. Gourley, and Steven E. Jones - Published in "The Environmentalist" 9-11 Truth Movement: Publication in a Peer-reviewed Civil Engineering Journal Dr. Crockett Grabbe published in "The Journal of Engineering Mechanics" 9/11 Debunkers Hide From Slam Dunk Evidence Of Controlled Demolition
Exactly! We have passed peered-review! That's awesome! I know. That's why we don't have to go around random forums and post our links to random people to attract them to our self-published blogs. We don't have to act like David Icke followers anymore. We can act like scientists. Jones proved this. We have to ask all our members to use serious venues to pass our serious science. We need to follow the example of scientists, and not conspiracy theorists. You understand. Now, let's tell the other Truthers to stop scrubbing at the bottom of the barrel. We are much better than that. We are not desperate. Why are we wasting time trying to convince people we don't even know on lame forums. Look at us. We are being ridiculed here, yet we still post and use the methods of conspiracy theorists to pass on our knowledge. It's lame and makes us look so desperate.
Traitor.
Thrasymaque is not a traitor, he's a sophist. He's trapping the conspiracy theorists at their own game. There's no way out of his strong argument. He's right - The more the Truthers make efforts to appeal to random users in random forums so they can pass of their links to self-published articles on self-published blogs, the more they hurt themselves by showing how desperate they are. It's the strongest debunking argument yet and covers all types of conspiracy theories in one blow. Thrasymaque is very powerful because he is a sophist. He is very hard to refute. Trust me, I tried several times. Look! All the conspiracy theorists on this page have been stopped in their own tracks. Every time they publish their little links on this forum, we can remind them of this post.
to what end? whats the point? is this really the pinnacle of intellect? more like a bully with no other social outlet. stinks of insecurity.
The point is to stop David Icke-ing it.
Conspiracy will never die, so long as there are real conspiracies. I swear it's a psychological thrill. People just do it for the high.
Sure if you can't get published by a legitimate publication, start your own publishing company. This is how the Cold Fusion people got around their not being published.
When things don't add up they tend to get ignored by the general science gate-keepers.
First ZSP told us he was not a 911-freak ( same as jeebus freak ), but now we learn today that he is a 911 freak, but playing devils wacko.
In ten years the 911-freaks have not been able to prove anything. No Report or investigation will bring truth cuz as we all know the government fears any outcome than that which they have already said. So its case close, think about history, where in history have nut-jobs ever got their way? NADA .. never Today is Pearl Harbor day, why aren't we arguing that we let the Jap's bomb, in order to get into the war WWII.
Face it we let 911 go down cuz we wanted to get WWIII going.
Question: How much prior knowledge did we have about pearl harbour? A few weeks? How is that going to make a difference? The Japanese were still showing without warning with a full fleet of unknown weaponry. Even if they knew an attack was immanent, they wouldn't have known how to prepare for it, if it was even a real threat and not just radio noise.
That's such a poor argument. Did you ever think that staying docked in Pearl Harbor was actually a good idea?
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/ph-salv.htm
They salvaged most of the ships. Had they went head-on against the Japanese, anything sunk would have been lost deep at sea. It was easier to defend in this case, than the alternatives. Which would have been either to round up everything and prepare for a counter attack against an unknown number of enemies coming from an unknown direction, or to surrender. I am actually glad the US joined WWII; they turned the tide against two dictatorships that planned on conquering Europe and massacring millions of people after.
Prior knowledge isn't go to stop the enemy from attacking you. That doesn't make them responsible for the attack.
You're saying that in ten years time from the thousands of scientific articles the Truthers have published on self hosted self-made blogs, not one of them is true science? That's hard to believe!
Let's pretend you're right for the sake of the argument. Don't you think Truthers are hurting their own movement by trying to sell their ideas in random forums to random people? Isn't that self-suicide? Would you post your discoveries on a self-made blog then try to find people you don't know on forums to agree with you?
I think the government is using cointel agents to convince Truthers to do this. They have been tricked by the government once more! I'm hoping they can stop before it's too late, and turn their attention to serious publications. Their truth is too valuable to be wasted by their self-suicidal marketing.
ZSP I didn't read it all, I didn't even read 1% of the mass of dis-information, all I'm saying is that everything I have ever read, was as logical as talking to a creationist.
The 911-Truthers MUST be of the same ilk, for they have created their own pseudo-science.
It's the same reason they have no papers in the Journals, we will not accept papers based on psuedo-science. The papers must be based on first principals, e.g. the shit taught in undergrad.
Let's play a game, you post for me something based on real science, ... and not from fucking jesse ventura or linda the bitch.
By definition and this is where it gets interesting is 911 truth is not based on truth, remember calling them truthers is an insult that came from opposition, no 911-conspiracist ever called themselves 'truthers'
any more than pro-abortion call them selves anti-life, and or anti-abortion call themselves deferred death, as they love babys, but kill them as adults, ... go figure
Take a step back and lets remember that these 911-theorists, and that's a nice name, cuz its not about conspiracy as nothing is secret.
What I have said is the 911-theorists science I have seen is like the shit that comes from creationists another 'anti-science' group that you see coming from YOUR zionism
The mother load of all today is the global-warming denial people, who are also based on bad-science or fake science,
So lets see in the are of fake science you have
jesus freaks 911-theorists global warming denial
all 3 groups arguments are based on emotional bullshit and not science
I almost want to add abortion, but I firmly believe in womans right to choose.
I think it is some kind of desparate need for attention. They are lonely and make up stories in their head. Because they have some kind of lonely existance. And want to place that blame elsewhere instead of on themselves.
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Because they are nuts! It's that simple. Why even waste another moment on this?
Rico never answered this post with facts constituting proof of treason and deprival of due process in 3,000 murders.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-truth-about-911-exposed/#comment-460736
He never provided any facts related to this issue. He prefers to bash at strawmen.
These have all been submitted to a US district court judge pursuant to Title 18, part I, chapter 115, §2382, Disclosure of knowledge of treason, or an attempt was made but they basically continue to conceal treason as well.
http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11title_18.disclosure.html http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11title_18.civreassign.html http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11title_18.civreasign1.html
Only evidence from 9-11 supporting the FEMA claim of the core structure of the tower is an acceptable response. Independently verified evidence is needed to reasonbly advocate belief in FEMA's anecdotal design details to NIST after guliani took the buildings plans.
Oh my! You're proving that Thrasymaque is right. ;-(
You're so desperate that you care about what rico thinks. However, you don't even know who rico is. A true scientist would never David Icke-it this way. He wouldn't waste his time on a random forum trying to convince random people. He would do what scientists do and publish in serious journals. You're hurting the Truth movement every time you post some links in some forums. You're losing all integrity. Don't scrub the bottom of the barrel!
If that was true then Adeimantus/Thrasymaque or rico could post here and prove it.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-does-a-soldier-defend-the-constitution-from-a-/
You are Thrasymaque and almost clueless as to what was posted. Your writing is almost incoherent to the context of my post.
It seems you are clueless my friend. Keep sinking. After ten years, most people ridicule you instead of commending you. It will only become worse. How pathetic you are that you don't understand why OWS does not want to support your claims. Are you mentally ill?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/09/1024519/-Threats-from-the-Invisible-Industry?showAll=yes&via=blog_481394 http://politics.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/ http://boingboing.net/2011/02/18/hbgarys-high-volume.html http://revolutionmessaging.com/2011/09/21/how-to-weed-out-astroturf-identifying-fake-public-support/ http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/16173.html http://veracitystew.com/2011/02/25/astroturfing-the-season-of-disinformation-video/ http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2011/04/25/cv-election-truthy-memes-twitter.html
9-11 Truthers must have important evidence to share with the world after ten years of solid research. However, perhaps they don't realize they are hurting their movement by marketing their valuable science in the way that they do. Maybe it's not too late. If they realize this problem, they might change their ways and start publishing their works in proper mediums. Maybe they were tricked in using the Internet in cheap ways to share their findings? Perhaps the Men in Black are behind this trickery? It might be the work of the government. If Truthers realize this before it's too late, they might stop committing self-suicide by posting on forum's like this one.
They have nothing of value.
I heard the chief engineer of the Trade center buildings talk about the collapse while holding back tears about how he hadn't considered enough what would happen if a jet crashed onto it. He showed exactly how the collapse happened and why. Nothing is unexplained.
These truthers are bizarre, unwilling to grasp what they believe is an improbable event, while substituting their own illogical fantasies to explain it.
By shouting fire, they support the narcissistic belief that they and they alone know the truth, and are hence superior to those they call sheep. They see vast conspiracies everywhere that they are privy to, and delude themselves to believe they are saviors of the world. They are guided by logical fallacies and grandiosity.
They are similar to climate change deniers or religious zealots: no evidence is ever enough to dissuade them from their beliefs. They are ill.
That is so sad. I mean about how the engineer of the buildings was holding back tears talking about the collapse. Did he ever write anything about it?
I don't think conspiracy theoriests are interested in evidence. Thats why you can never give them enough. They have some deep need to be right and are unwilling to give merit to the evidence because it might prove them otherwise. They must be the kind of people that probably always think they are right and don't listen openly to others .
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Bottom line is because the best they could come up with has all been discounted by experts. They can only publish there conspiracy theories to those that want to believe them. The basis for any conspiracy theory is an unprovable statement. It is that way so that the argument can never be over regardless of what an expert in whatever field says.