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Forum Post: The TRUTH about 9/11 Exposed !

Posted 7 years ago on Dec. 1, 2011, 6:09 p.m. EST by Rico (3027)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

As an Engineer, I'm tired of all the half truths and conspiracy theories circulating in the forum regarding the events of 9/11 . All of these silly theories were debunked long ago.

Eyewitnesses to Pentagon Attack: http://youtu.be/t1wQ2BJsgx0

Pentagon Flight 77 Photo Evidence : http://youtu.be/YTNRkb7AaQk

World Trade Center's Collapse : http://youtu.be/bMZ-nkYr46w

World Trade Center Free-Fall Speed : http://youtu.be/qLShZOvxVe4

World Trade Center 7 Collapse : http://youtu.be/_kSq663m0G8

World Trade Center Controlled Demolition : http://youtu.be/tacYjsS-g6k

Columns Cut During Clean-Up : http://youtu.be/ySHgiUxnLC0

Pools of Molten Steel : http://youtu.be/7YXzjAKJQOg

Thermate Chemical Signatures : http://youtu.be/OWpC_1WP8do

If folks would like more, watch the entire playlist at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5E81853EE675EFF9 and read the information available at http://debunking911.com/ , http://911myths.com/index.php/Main_Page , and http://sites.google.com/site/wtc7lies/

220 Comments

220 Comments


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[-] 2 points by rockyracoon2 (276) 7 years ago

keep hoping wishing and grasping... it only delays the pain

more and more are beginning to understand we've been deceived. that 911 official story is a lie. you can keep trying by posting dis or mis information, but eventually people see through it

truth will shine.

[-] 1 points by UncleKennyD (7) 7 years ago

Despite the thorough debunking and eventual capitulation by most who initiated this farce there are still people who buy off on this? Really? I mean, believe what you wish to, but the basic concept of these conspiracies has been debunked, modified, debunked and modified again. The great thing about conspiracies is, they seem to require no proof, no actual science that conclusively supports them and simply suspicion to be accepted. The government is liars doesn’t explain how this conspiracy idea has merit, just that there is reason to suspect the official version is doctored. Fine, but as a former member of 5th SFG and as an engineer the idea conspiracy theorists put forward are ridiculous and not feasible in any realistic scenario. Simple common sense folks, the absence of evidence is not in and of itself evidence of sabotage or conspiracy. I hate to say it, but the people who buy off on this crap must want it to be true, which is pretty sad..

[-] 1 points by Democracydriven (658) 7 years ago

How true. I just finished watching the first video

An engine vaporized? some say it coming in at steep angle. Some saw it coming in fast and low? Some saw people strapped to the seats in the aftermath (no photos, no engine parts left?

I could have made something more believable than that

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

All I posted was the information describing the alternative view. It's actually MUCH better substantiated than the crap people are using to claim a conspiracy.

[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 was a conspiracy. If you think otherwise, you are insane.

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) 7 years ago

Rico, excellent work.

[-] 1 points by TracyPostert (7) 7 years ago

The Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth have gotten things wrong. Just think: A plane flies into a building that had been preset with explosives. What happens to the explosives? They get blown about, possibly ignited haphazardly. Certainly any bombs inside the WTC would have gotten disturbed by a plane crash. Planes plus bombs is a really, really silly theory. Plane crashes alone aren't sufficient to destroy the WTC, admitted, but adding explosives into the theory and calling it a day doesn't work either.

[-] 1 points by gawdoftruth (3698) from Santa Barbara, CA 7 years ago

the truthers are right, and i can debunk these "debunkings" easily.

I have argued to them that they shouldn't bring the issue to this forum, now i will argue with them that you are full of crap.

This is what is wrong with this so called movement. Its not standing up for the truth, its standing up for lies, its actually operating to cover the oligarchs crimes, its actually operating to aid and abet the oligarchy, not stand up to it on these grounds and others. 911 was an inside job, and its pathetic and evil that anybody out here would still be denying the simple facts.

http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/Article_5_Convention

http://occupythiswiki.org/wiki/THE_99%25_POLITICAL_PARTY

http://occupywallst.org/forum/im-quitting-unless-you-all-start-working-stay-the-/

[-] 1 points by blazefire (947) 7 years ago

Firstly, I just wanted to thank-you for your input, and, obvious desire to share all the information you have.

I just wanted to ask....Why is this relevant?

Now, don't get me wrong, the 9/11 issue, is clearly relevant to many people, but is it relevant to occupy? I have seen many people, spending hours on one side of the fence or the other in this debate, which, I see as naught more than distraction from core issues.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm grateful for your input and your stance on this matter, however, I'm not certain if this is the place for it to be aired, and I would say the same to both sides of the fence in this issue. Is 9/11 why we're occupying? No. There are plenty of places to go and debate this issue, so, why here?

Whether or not 9/11 was perpetrated by Osama, Bush, or Elmo, is almost irrelevant in site of the greed and hatred that fueled it. This is naught but a red herring IMHO. Afterall....while we're busy debating this issue, we aren't talking about ANY of the reasons that brought anyone to this forum in the first place.

Are you happy with the capitalist system? Now thats something I want to discuss. And as systems engineer, surely you see that discussing the 9/11 issue is simply discussing the results of the working system, and, that that system is working flawlessly. So then we must consider the functions and repurcussions of the core systems, that we as human beings, have installed in our world. Are you happy with those systems?

What would YOU change? What DID bring you here...?

My thanks again, for adding your voice to the collective one, and, my condolences for your loss.

[-] 1 points by blazefire (947) 7 years ago

Fair enough! Let the debate and discourse rage!

"The truth will set you free."

[-] 1 points by Fiction (14) 7 years ago

Hell just look at titanic for instance, if it happened once it can happen again, with a culture of perpetual fear, Do you know that The New York City Police Department (NYPD), established in 1845, is currently the largest municipal police force in the United States,[2] with primary responsibilities in law enforcement and investigation within the five boroughs of New York City. The NYPD is one of the oldest police departments established in the United States; tracing its roots back to the first Dutch eight man night watch in 1625. and the theory of titanic link here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II-JVcaW0O0&feature=related Just my thoughts =P

[-] 1 points by Infowar (295) 7 years ago

You MAY be an engineer but are you an architectural engineer. I am betting you drive a train. Also how come 911 was the only time steel framed buildings collapsed from fire, even one not hit by a plane?

[-] 3 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Actually I am a staff level Systems Engineer with broad knowledge of electrical, mechanical, thermal, electrical, and software experience accumulated over a 30 year career. My son is a 26 year old mechanical engineer, and he agrees with my conclusions.

The floors first stuck by the aircraft suffered explosive compression. The compression and impact not only shocked and blew off much of the spray-on fire insulation but also sent a supersonic shock wave down the tower that blew out the weakest windows of the structure, those at ground level. This same shock wave would have seemed like an explosion in the basement. With the spray-on fire insulation blown/shocked away, significant portions of the exposed steel was heated to sufficient temperatures that it weakened significantly. The temperatures were sufficient to melt the aluminum debris from the aircraft, and it can be seen dripping from the piles of rubble on the affected floors. This gives us an indication of the temperatures attained, and they are sufficient to destroy the structural integrity of steel. The floors of the towers are all hung from vertical structures. While the attachment points were designed to withstand the lateral compressive and expansive forces of an airplane strike, they were not designed for the shear forces associated with the upper floors collapsing downward from above. The supports sheared and the stack gained more and more momentum as it traveled downward. With so much kinetic energy applied to each subsequent floor, the entire structure collapsed at near free-fall speeds (No building can collapse as fast as free fall no matter now it is brought down).

A free standing building that still has in-tact fire insulation does not suffer the same loss of structural integrity in fire as seen in the towers. Protecting the steel from fire is specifically what that foam is designed to do. If you want an example similar to the trade towers, you need to look at fires in buildings of similar construction lacking fire insulation. In addition, there needs to be sufficient weight above the floor with the fire that the vertical supports of the floors are subjected to similar shear forces.

I can literally see the equations in my head as I watch what happens in the videos. It all makes perfect sense to me and my son as well.

[-] -1 points by Infowar (295) 7 years ago

Exactly you are not a structural engineer how VERY DISHONEST and misleading of you.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

LOL ! You are indeed a disrespectful fellow.

When did I say I was a structural engineer, and what exactly do you think the difference between mechanical engineering and structural engineering is? Do you think the laws of physics are different across all these domains of engineering ?

[-] 1 points by Fedup15 (30) 7 years ago

The WTC was a very unusual design. The support structures were not distributed throughout the buildings floor plans. Instead they were on the perimeter of the buildings and their outer shething also was part of the support structure. The floors effectively were connected to the outer support structures by fastners. When the planes hit the buildings the support structures were so damaged that the buildings eventually fell as the upper floors gave way, slamming downward and taking the whole buildings down. Bin Laden knew this, as he came from the very large construction company in the middle east, namely Bin Laden Construction, the Saudi Royal family's construction company. The WTC was not the traditional I beam construction like the Empire State building and now the new Freedom Tower. They were somewhat easy to take down by the planes impacts. The heat from the fuel tanks of the jumbo jets along with the furniture and fixtures and plastics, burned at very high temperatures and the concrete flooring acted like ovens. The steel did become molten. The WTC were taken down by the planes flown by the terrorists. That is the horrible truth.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I agree except for a few points and clarifications per my post below at http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-truth-about-911-exposed/#comment-462471 .

I don't think the steel melted, but molten aluminum was seen dripping from the piles of aircraft debris, and that indicates the temperatures were high enough to destroy the steel's structural integrity. Minor point.

'Slamming down" ... exactly. Though the building was designed to take a lateral strike from an airplane, such a lateral impact creates compressive and expansive forces. Once the first weakened floor collapsed, it created downward shear forces on all the lower attach points, and they we're designed for downward shear.

I personally don't think Bin Laden knew the buildings would come down. Remember, he tired once before using fertilizer bombs in the basements of the same buildings. I can't know for sure, but I think he was resigned to the idea that he couldn't bring them down so he went for a very visible 'statement' by ramming planes into them. I doubt he was stupid enough to think he knock them over, so I'm guessing he was just hoping for a world-wide television event; even if folks missed the first plane, they'd catch the second on television.

We'll certainly never know what everyone was thinking, but we do know one thing for sure. 9/11 was an act of terrorism. All the facts indicate this to be the case, and it's only the nut-job conspiracy theorists who also believe we have UFO's at Roswell that persist in their insane arguments to the contrary.

[-] 1 points by Fedup15 (30) 7 years ago

The amount of details on the WTC design on the internet is unbeleivable. The higher the floors the wealer the structure because it had less od a load. If the planes struck the base they may have stood. By hitting the higher floors they created a collapse at the top half that took down the whole. So sad.

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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 7 years ago

terrorist hit banks and an d weapon system with air planes

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

Believe the government if you want but we all know they are a corrupt institution and have no problem lying to the public. How about the existence of ufo's. Why are they still hiding that. Anyone think that might be of some importance to the general public? Even if the WTC was not a conspiracy the government has given us more reasons not to trust them than reasons to believe what they say. Frankly I am not falling for their ruse. Thank you for the info.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

So let me guess... you believe you and your close circle of friends are all persons of high integrity and ethics, but those outside your group are all liars and cheaters, correct?

I happen to have known several hundred senior military people over my 55 some years. My daughter and her friends are active duty, and I am ex military myself. I assure you that none of them would engage in a conspiracy such as you assume, nor would they remain silent if they saw evidence of one.

Ethics, character, and morality are not exclusive to your little circle of friends. The general population is comprised of people just as good as yourself. There are certainly a few criminal outliers (i.e. Madoff), but not enough of them to pull off such a broad conspiracy nor keep it secret.

[-] 1 points by hamalmang (722) from Lebanon, PA 7 years ago

I am not buying into the 9/11 inside job conspiracy theory but I have always found it creepy that Dick Cheney ordered several planes shot down and was under the impression for some time that day while he was in that bunker under the white house that several planes were indeed shot down. Later he claimed that Bush gave him the order to give the order but that is a lie. He did it himself without consulting the President first. I find it creepy that a vice president actually can make an order of this sort.

Once again, I am not saying that planes were shot down. Just saying that Cheney made the conscious decision to order them brought down and thought that it actually happened due to the confusion and misinformation flying around in the wake of the attacks

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yep. When crisis hits, we sometimes see some scary disorder. Who was the guy who stood up and said he had the helm when Reagan was shot ? I forget, but it was similar spooky example.

[-] 1 points by sinead (474) 7 years ago

That was Alexander Haig who said "I am in control here" ... he was I believe Secretary of State at the time.

[-] 1 points by CrossingtheDivided (357) from Santa Ysabel, CA 7 years ago

That doesn't prove anything.

We'll likely never know the full truth.

And it really doesn't matter to most Americans: we have bigger fish to fry.

[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 is the foundation of the ongoing hijacking of the US orA. If you don't know that then you don't understand 9/11.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

And the Illegal WARS on people abroad, people who had NOTHING whatsoever to do with 9/11 ? WTF did Iraq have to do with 9/11 ? Americans and Afghans are still dying today because of what happened on that day ! If this doesn't matter "to most Americans", then ... ?!!

W.M.D. = Words of Mass Deception ...

[-] 1 points by CrossingtheDivided (357) from Santa Ysabel, CA 7 years ago

I agree...yet endless speculation about "what happened on 9/11" isn't going to get us anywhere.

It's a big stinking cover up, all of it, and those who know what really happened won't be telling for various obvious reasons. . . .

[Deleted]

[-] 1 points by CrossingtheDivided (357) from Santa Ysabel, CA 7 years ago

Well, you can start any topic you like (but I find heaping helpings of bullshit on both sides of the extremely divisive 9/11 myths argument.)

The main problem I have with it is it's a pointless pursuit to try to appeal to anybody's reason about it at this point. The people who care have already made up their minds, the people who don't care will never think hard about it, and nobody we know will ever really know.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

True. I think I'll stop responding. There really IS no point.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

So, "As an Engineer", please also watch : "AE911Truth Experts Speak Out" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6mJOqRDI4 .

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Further to the above and to add to Rico's displeasure and disdain no doubt :

a) 9/11 MYSTERIES [full documentary] ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMv3UPnKwt0 ,

b) http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/911/ ,

c) http://www.ae911truth.org/ ,

d) http://stj911.org/ &

e) http://9-11cc.org/ .

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] -1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Doesn't bother me. I've seen it all. I'm an engineer by trade, and none of these silly conspiracy theories stand up to examination.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

The reality is that you are very 'bothered' because you are aware of the credentials of some of the Architects, Engineers, Scientists and Scholars in the web-sites above, who know that there is something Extremely Wrong and Awry with "The Official Conspiracy Theory". fiat lux ...

[-] -2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Nope. I just want to make sure folks hear the other side as well. Does that worry you?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

No Rico, absolutely Not ... but I suspect that "Thrasymaque" above doesn't quite share your equanimity.

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Ah well, he's a Canadian ;o)

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 7 years ago

Ya, I'm Canadian. I'm not used to these conspiracy nut jobs. Do you know what they look like? Have you met any?

[-] 3 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yes I have. Sadly they are in my own extended family. You wouldn't believe the amount of time I spent explaining to some of my wife's relatives what causes contrails in the sky. An 'us vs. them' mentality appears deeply entrenched in American society, and it causes us to view our neighbors, supervisors, managers, and public officials with great distrust. Ironically, when polled, most Americans believe they have high moral values, but they do not extend that belief to their fellow man. Worse, we are also arrogant and seem reluctant to acknowledge that perhaps someone who has dedicated their life to a complex topic might actually know a bit more than we do as individuals. We are also intellectually lazy and not very careful to screen what information we allow into our heads as 'fact;' widely proliferated "social fact" on twitter/facebook/youtube have replaced scientific fact.

How did we get here ?

America has a long tradition of individualism rooted in our history, and this elevates the image of self. We have also just gone through a couple of decades operating under the cult of self esteem whereby everyone's performance, thoughts, etc, are congratulated independent of any real accomplishment. In addition, the very nature of our melting-pot has deprived us of a shared culture with shared truths, so we now share few common beliefs and rely on lawsuits to settle our differences. Combine all of the above and we find Americans have become moral relativists who are very proud of themselves but very suspicious of all others.

Can America recover ?

Yes. We need our K-12 schools to better equip our young to become citizens in our fast paced Internet-driven capitalist Democracy. American's need more exposure to our modern heroes that set an example for all. We need more education in ethics and a better understanding of the role they play in any society. We need more education on financial matters so people better understand credit cards and mortgages. We need more education in critical thinking to help people work through the flood of information they are exposed to on the Internet. We also need parents to become parents again rather than their child's best friend. Children need criticism when criticism is due, and praise must be withheld for real accomplishment.

I happen to have enjoyed a very broad range of acquaintance with people in law, the military, and government. Shock of shocks, the vast majority of them are as ethical as I. Most try to do the right thing, and none of those I've met over my 55 years would participate in the insane conspiracies people routinely assume. I'm not a Democrat, so I don't agree with his outlook in all cases, but I believe President Obama is a good and moral man. I believe our military leaders are some of our best. I think Chairman Bernanke has no agenda other than to help America.

Am I looking at life through rose-colored glasses ? If all these people are fundamentally good, then why do we have so many problems ?

Yes, I tend to be an optimist, and we certainly do have a lot of problems. I do not believe, however, that our problems result from a widespread conspiracy. There are certainly some bad players (i.e. Madoff), but in general, people just don't always think about the ramifications of their day-to-day actions. I believe that these people are good, and if they would spend a little more time in self examination and reflection, they might not do some of what they routinely do. I consistently find that when I point out the subtle ethics underlying their actions, people see the harm in some of their day to day actions and choose to stop. Our society is very fact paced, however, so not many people ever think about what they're doing, so a lot of subtle lapses in ethics slip by them. I am encouraged by the wider deployment of ethics training in my own company, the inclusion of ethics in college curriculum, etc, but we also need the general population educated as well.

I conclude once again that the foundation of any Democracy is education in critical thinking and ethics. Add Capitalism to the mix and we find a need for some education in personal finance.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 7 years ago

I agree with alot of what you say. The problems in our society. I'm going off topic, I don't have any conspiracy theories!

But I have felt that alot of our societal problems today are due to the pressure that has been put on the middle class. Who has been struggling just to survive for the past 30 years, under enormous financial pressure. Alot of natural altruism is lost when a person is in individual survival mode for the basic security needs of life. Yes, some of our faults are rooted in history. But I think these are exasperated and multiplied as a result of these more recent circumstances.

The middle class is the foundation of our country. It's a trickle up problem now. The more stress that is put on the middle class, that pressure trickles up and puts pressure on the upper middle and upper classes. As well as on the government, in different ways, one of which is entitlements. One example - Obamacare - was simply the necessary result to cover the gap between rising healthcare costs and middle class wage stagnation. Not that I necessarily agree with it, but I realize simply - that something had to fill the gap.

I also believe that the vast majority of people, even in our government are good and ethical people! I feel like most people in our government may be as much a victim of political corruption as the one's on the recieving end of it. Maybe more so! I think it must be an awful thing as a politician - to be in the near constant position of choosing money (neccessity) over people, and voting their conscience without having to make bizarre rationalizations for doing otherwise. That must be a horrible burden to carry around.

About ethics. I think we have lost our moral compass in large part again - because of the decline of the middle class. The decline of the middle class allows more money to flow to the top, which feeds the greed and corruption. And greed begets more greed.

I also love what you say about education!

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I agree, and I place the middle class down near the $50,000 per year range (according to the 2010 census). To go even further off-topic, have you read Congressman Paul Ryan's plan ? He proposes zero taxes on a family of four earning $49,000 per year, 25% taxes on folks earning over $200,000 a year, and cuts Social Security and Medicare benefits for the well-off who don't need them. This from a REPUBLICAN ! The Congressional budget office reviewed his plan and said it fixes our budget problems. Unfortunately, the corporate right of the Republican party doesn't like his plan, and the left won't even listen to it because he's a Republican. Too bad... he seems to be the only one with a real plan that solves our problems at the expense of the well-off (which includes me by the way).

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 7 years ago

I did not know about that! The Ryan plan. I am shocked!! It makes all the sense in the world, naturally, nobody in DC will listen (cue the sarcasm). But I don't get the left strategy. Why wouldn't they take it, make some revisions, call it their own and run with it ? You know more about DC than me.

Well off includes me too. I know its weird, but I want to pay more taxes. I don't feel like a freak for saying that anymore, since Warren Buffet has! I could voluntarily contribute, I know. But one person is not going to make a difference. It needs to be codified.

But I am horrified by the reaction of the wealthy whenever there is talk of tax increases. It's just money! We'll still be well-off! People in our Armed Forces risk and sacrifice their lives for our country!! But some wealthy people cannot manage the thought of sacrificing some of their money for the sake of their country?? I think it is sickening and deplorable. I think it is some kind of weird brainwashing that has been going on. The lie that the wealthy create jobs. Or at least thats their excuse.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I just reread Ryan's plan to answer the question why the left doesn't support it and found I misstated some of the facts. He proposes a 10% tax up to $100,000 (joint, $50,000 separate) with standard deduction of $39,000 for a family of four. Thus, a family of four earning $50,000 would still owe $5,000 in taxes. His plan DOES however, provide a $5,700 credit for health care coverage so the family would presumably pay nothing insofar as they buy health care coverage. Joint income above $100,000 is taxed at 25% with the same exemptions and credits.

I'm guessing the left doesn't like the plan because it does reduce the maximum nominal rate on the rich (though it eliminates all the loopholes they exploit) and cuts corporate taxes in an effort to bring businesses back to the USA.

There's plenty of fodder for the left to argue about, but it's still the most balanced plan I've seen from anyone, and the CBO says it will fix the problem. It would seem folks could use it as a starting point, perhaps adding that third bracket at the top to help make it more attractive to the left.

You can see the plan at http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/ and a summary of the Congressional Budget Office report (with links to the actual report) at http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=169718 .

I am, by the way a capitalist, and I do acknowledge that capital is necessary to finance and construct businesses. The 1% are not using their amassed wealth to create new businesses however, they're simply using it to get richer and richer via speculation, and that actually destabilizes the economy. I'm all for taxing the heck out of capital gains made over a period less than 10 years or so. I'm also for inflation... we're in debt up to our ears at the personal, local, State, Federal, and International level, and inflation helps us debtors pay off the debt holders using dollars that are worth less than those we borrowed while simultaneously penalizing people who are sitting on piles of wealth. I'm amazed that so many in these forums are against inflation given our current state.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 7 years ago

Here is some stuff on the Serbs that was floating around here. Short version. Read post #5 http://vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=1333630

http://dprogram.net/2011/10/15/occupy-wall-street-and-%E2%80%9Cthe-american-autumn%E2%80%9D-is-it-a-%E2%80%9Ccolored-revolution%E2%80%9D-michel-chossudovsky/

Watching a youtube of them, the way they operate, looks and feels just like OWS. Rhetoric, symbolism, strategies.

I don't know. I can't really believe its all coincidence.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

As I noted, it really doesn't matter any more. At this point ALL the crazies have joined and try to manipulate us. Fortunately, the core of dissatisfied Americans remains solid.

[-] 2 points by April (3196) 7 years ago

I agree, the number one thing we should be focused on is campaign reform. Then we can fix everything else.

But I'm concerned about the roots of the movement. For me, its not about tolerance or intolerance, its about effectiveness and getting results, working with and through government.

The fact that this movement is based on anarchy, is I think, why there is no focus and not better progress. I think the Direct Democracy method that the GA uses and the structure of the working groups is completely ineffective. No leaders (except the anarchists), no heirarchy = no results. The official statement of OWS "we don't need Wall Street or politicians". I think the OWS ptb has no interest in working with government for change. I think the most radical elements of the anarchists want to end the state. The more moderate want to replace our Representative Republic with Direct Democracy. I am not sure that the protesters who want campaign finance reform (or Glass Stegall, or some of the other big ones) will be able to break through this anarchy and the OWS ptb.

I worry about the Serbs (Otpor). They have a history of violence.

The anarchists that started this movement - their method was effective for the startup. But now it is holding the movement back. How can the movement have an effective organization/message/unification without real leadership and a heirarchy? I think its doomed to fail unless this changes.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I generally agree with everything you said (except for the Serbian connection which I cannot verify). The Tea Party changed the entire debate by unifying a bunch of people behind one clear and understandable message,"Government is too Big." In addition, a number of leaders quickly emerged to help solidify the message and coordinate political activities. In my opinion, OWS would benefit from a 'big message' and a few leaders as well. Unfortunately, few see it that way. It's sad to see so much 'people power' wasted when it could be so much more effective. As it stands, I fear we are already losing many to disillusionment. Alas.

[-] 1 points by April (3196) 7 years ago

It does sound like a good starting point. I'm going to read up and write to my Representative about this. He's a Repub, so maybe he'll listen - a little bit.

What do you think about taxing each trade on Wall Street? I know there is a name for this, I can't think what it is. This is supposed to reduce volatility in the markets while provide revenue. I don't think it is huge, but it could help?

The other thing I can not figure out. And since you have some experience with Washington, maybe you know this. This protest is quite literally, anarchy in the streets. With possible connections to Serbian Revolution groups (on US soil). Maybe I'm just sheltered and naive, but - how can our government be ok with this? I know it's still a relatively small protest. But I think the potential for violence is high. How could our government let this continue. They could end this all pretty quickly, with some common sense legislation. Couldn't they? I can only conclude they are putting politics before people. Even in the face of anarchy in the streets? I do not get it.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

That's the first I've heard about Serbians. In any case, it doesn't really matter who 'sparked' the movement, it takes a lot of dissatisfaction to get so many citizens to camp out in parks and spend so much time protesting. A lot of the dissatisfaction is real, based on personal experience, and it's been fanned by the 'bail-outs.' No doubt the anarchists, socialists, etc have all jumped in to try and exploit the opportunity (as have the Anti-Semites apparently), but the core is still rooted in plain old dissatisfaction, and it needs to be addressed.

We tolerate what's going on because we are America, and I wouldn't have it any other way. No amount of legislation can force unhappy people out of the streets, it would only serve to justify removing them. Our current laws banning camping in public spaces, etc. have been adequate in that regard. All in all, I think the police have shown pretty reasonable restraint in clearing the camps other than a few idiots (there's ALWAYS a few idiots), and the police didn't move until after the movement had plenty of time to present our case (which we have yet to do). We're still allowed to gather and protest, so nothing has been stopped really except for camping and that, in my opinion, wasn't really core to what we're trying to attain.

I support the movement, but I am concerned that all this wonderful people power is being wasted. We can't keep showing how powerful we are by interfering in the day to day lives of our fellow citizens without telling them what it is we want. That only causes us to lose the very support among the average Americans we're trying to help. I have long advocated that we need one simple message that all Americans can get behind, and that message should be getting the money out of politics ( see http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-the-people-in-order-to-a-proposal/ ). Once we have our government back, we can use uncorrupted Democracy to solve all our other differences. I also advocate better education of the American consumer in the responsible exercise of their economic power ( see http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-power-of-the-people/ and my shopping guidelines at http://bit.ly/DoYourBit ). I believe we can fix what ails America by these two measures alone, and I think all Americans can get behind them.

;o)

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 7 years ago

Thanks for the clear explanation. I'm wondering what did you relative think contrails were? Some kind of alienesque manifestation?

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

There's another widely held conspiracy theory that contrails are plumes of mind control agents used to passivate the public. Go figure.

[-] 0 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 7 years ago

WTF? OK. That's weird.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Thr@syM : Plenty of Canadians have serious questions about 9/!! and you already know this to be the case. As you too seem to subscribe to a 'conspiracy theory', namely "The Official Conspiracy Theory" ... what do You look like ? And WTF would THAT have to do with Anything Anyway ? Ad iudicium ... And A Tune 4 U & All ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZBefrTszxU ;-)

[-] -1 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 7 years ago

I don't You must realize that posting 9/11 conspiracy theories is against the site rules. I'm here to enforce those rules and will drown your pages with an influx of images.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

TM@que : Some 'socratic' inquiry is in order here and thus :

a) You are here to "enforce those rules" are you ?

b) What are your credentials for doing this ?

c) Are you anything to do with OWS or this forum and web-site in any official capacity ?

d) I've never instigated any Forum Posts re. 9/!! but have responded to existing ones (as here) so how do you propose to 'drown my pages' ?

e) WhoTF do you think you are & Why are you sending me nonsensical & hubristic private messages ?

My questions though real are also rhetorical, in so far as I don't really care about your answers as no doubt you will employ some self-serving 'sophistry' in any forthcoming 'raison d'etre', however feel free to surprise me ...

semper lux !

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yep, more BS full of opinions contradicted by the facts.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Re. "the facts", The Official 9/11 Commission Report's failure to address itself to the matter of WTC Building 7 at all, is both shocking and revealing. Thus, http://rememberbuilding7.org/10/ et fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Rico : Only 3 times in Civil Engineering History have Steel Framed Skyscrapers Collapsed due (allegedly!!) to fire. All these occurred on the 11th on September 2001 in New York. IF this is possible then building codes and regulations across the world are null and void. As an aside and you don't have to answer but what kind of engineer are you ?

After The Enormous Psychic Shock of Those events of That Longest September Day in Human History ; I too Fully Accepted "The Official Conspiracy Theory" version about 9/11 until late 2003, when I too had The Same [(WTC. 'Bldg. 7' ?!!) x {WTF !!!}] moment, as so many millions of other people out there.

Seeing beyond The~Veil like that is like a 'Splinter In One's Mind' and you learn to deal with it, though it obviously changes you. For some though, the very prospect of Anything Other Than "The Official CONspiracy Theory" is Possible Psychic Psuicide ... and therefore literally, Unthinkable !

For many other millions of The 99%, sub-consciously we know that there's 'something' N0T quite right ... but standing up & facing a different direction from all those around you .. takes a certain courage - which in truth, we don't all have - all of the time.

Anyway, IF your Psyche can take it, the following 'Meme-Equation' is where the troubled & traumatic journey from realising 'WTC7' eventually leads :

9/!! - NORAD + Thermite x (WTC1 + WTC2) + {WTC7 x WTF!!!} + [Pentagon - Plane + GlobalHawk / Missile] + UA93 - C.S.I = COUP d'ETAT ; qed.

Opening The Mind's "eYe" to the above & absorbing The Cold Hard Logic of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP9Qp5QWRMQ ... or engaging with, for example http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/911-mysteries/ , IS NOT everyone's 'favourite cup of tea' - and frankly this matter does NOT have any bearing on OWS or on the matter of The Unconscionable Despotism Of The Banksters ... but YOU posted as you did and I responded.

mutantur omnia nos et mutamur in illis ...

[-] 2 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

"9/!! - NORAD + Thermite x (wtc1 + wtc2) + {wtc7 x wtc!!!} + [Pentagon - Plane + GlobalHawk / Missile] + UA93 - C.S.I = COUP d'ETAT ; qed." BINGO!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@louis : That's {WTC7 x WTF !!!} ... Q.E.D. .. ! & ;-)

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

I was unable to post with CAPS. Dunno why. OH, you're right I did a typo. Sorry.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@louis : No worries & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZBefrTszxU ;-)

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

No other building was subjected to the conditions of 9/11 http://youtu.be/_MRSr1MnFuk There was no thermite http://youtu.be/OWpC_1WP8do Tower 7 was seriously damaged http://youtu.be/kMr3ZSL6l-4 Over 100 people saw the plane hit the Pentagon http://youtu.be/t1wQ2BJsgx0

Everything you have said regarding 9/11 has been debunked. If you weren't so fond of your comfortable conspiracy theory, you'd watch every single video at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5E81853EE675EFF9 .

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Over the last 8 years I have watched many, many 'debunk' clips and perhaps you've seen some or even many, docs. & video clips such as in http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/category/911/ etc. and it seems safe to say that neither of us are going to sway the other with anything we post here.

On possibly my last words on the matter here, The Pentagon is one of THE Most secure and surveilled buildings on The Planet. Now as then, it bristles with many cameras as do the many of buildings in the vicinity but the film/recordings from numerous cameras have been sequestered and Never Released.

Do you think that IF there was a clear picture of a plane before, during or after 'The Strike', that we would NOT have been presented with it by now ? The fact that we haven't, at the very least points to there being no photographic evidence of any plane ! I could go on about 3 of concentric rings being penetrated, there being NO crash debris such as bodies, luggage, pieces of a jet liner etc. but I'd bore or enrage you.

Suffice it for me to post this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=245IMaGAj_Y ; http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm & http://pentagon.spacelist.org/ ... and wish you and yours all the very best for the forthcoming festive season.

pax et lux ...

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Video showing debris from the aircraft : http://youtu.be/YTNRkb7AaQk

I find the Pentagon theories particularly offensive as I lost a friend on that plane.

Merry Christmas ! (or whatever you celebrate)

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

I meant you no personal offence and having lost someone very dear to me this year, I commiserate with your loss. Perhaps we can amicably conclude with mutual best wishes for Peace and Contentment for the Winter Solstice, Yule, Xmas and The New Year. ;-)

[-] 1 points by jenek (25) 7 years ago

Almost All of these silly theories- were created by the us government to coverup something- what that something is- who the hell knows? its called disinformation- to keep the American people in the dark, as to what really happened? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++====== training web page http://tinyurl.com/7rvpv43

training web page http://tinyurl.com/7rvpv43

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[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 7 years ago

ummm yeah eyewitness claims contradicts many of these false claims like that 25 percent of building 7 was "scoped out" completely that statement by officials completely contradicts eyewitness statements that is not proof of anything but a conspiracy

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

Look, there needs to be an investigation, a real one, with witnesses under oath, cross examination etc. What has transpired since 911 along with all the doubts held by so many people make this a legitimate demand.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

No more legitimate than the demand by the UFO folks that Roswell be inspected, government files opened, and witnesses brought forth. The mere fact that a bunch of folks are interested in UFOs or ghosts doesn't mean they're real or that somebody can or should be forced to prove they don't exist.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

You KNOW you are mixing apples and oranges here. Respectable and competent engineers question the whole story. People just can't understand where the US Airforce vanished to. The whole thing needs to be sorted out. Thousands died that day, and it ws used to justify immense crimes like the attack against iraq and occupation there.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Why bother ? We're pulling out of Iraq now. We may as well wait until everything declassifies so we can see all the facts about what we knew. I know for a fact there's a lot of stuff folks gripe about for which there is an explanation... they just can't see it until it's declassified.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

"We" murdered over a million Iraqis. "We" are maintaining a "diplomatic presence" consisting of around 16,000 including armed mercenaries. "Our" troops are being "withdrawn" to places like Kuwait, which, by the way, was the 19th province of Iraq and was stolen. "We" remain in Afghanistan where "we" guard opium poppy fields and murder by drone. "We" now are in debt for trillions of dollars behind the consequences of an immense and monstrous lie.

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 7 years ago

yes because youtube videos are always 100% legit.

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

The videos are just as legit as the ones folks post to "substantiate" their silly theories. Frankly, this whole topic is irrelevant to OWS. I only created these post to counter those being posted by the conspiracy theorists to ensure folks that are interested also see the materials debunking their ridiculous theories.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 7 years ago

I never said that they were wrong or right. I do know this for a fact, the 9/11 commission report is full of controversy.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

The mere fact that there are TV shows and DVDs discussing UFOs and government conspiracies to conceal them does not mean they are real; it only means folks love controversy and conspiracies. One million opinions that are false do not a truth make.

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 7 years ago

I agree with your comment. But the 9/11 commission report is full of controversy. Just because 10 guys payed by the government write something doesn't mean it's bullet proof. There are many parts that are filled with controversy. Specifically in regards to who funded the terrorists.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 "debunkers" are an asset to the Truth movement. They expose people to the issues. They may persuade in the short term, but in the long run people will see through the deception.

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[-] 0 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 7 years ago

i like your title. it is good conspiracy theorist bait. good research.

[-] 0 points by OccupyLove (3) from New York, NY 7 years ago

Thanks for having the courage to share information. Ridicule is for the insecure. Many fear the truth and what it implies. The lies of the Bush/Cheney narrative of 911, make many comfortable... and sadly directly fuel war. Like any case in court, the jury, the American people, will decide what is based on existing evidence. Respect to those who took the time to do their research and ask the right questions. The scientific method was applied, and so was basic logic. Thou hast been given a brain of one's own to use in thinking for yourself. Good luck with that... to those seemingly attached to the lies fed to them by the 'evil doers". The truth is sometimes uncomfortable but the only way to find anything like freedom

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Ignoring all the engineering analysis that substantiates the "official" story, one must consider the realism of a conspiracy as grand as that proposed by many.

I happen to have had many friends and associates high in the military, have a daughter who is active duty, and am ex-military myself. I assure you none of the military people I have met in my 55 some years would engage in such acts or remain silent if they saw others engaging in such acts.

It is my knowledge as an engineer coupled with my wide experience in seeing laypersons misinterpret engineering data and my knowledge of the character exhibited by our military personnel that causes me to accept the "official story." I do not accept it blindly as you suggest.

[-] 0 points by EXPOSED (222) 7 years ago

All this has been adressed already by 911Gate...

[-] 1 points by D33 (48) from Seattle, WA 7 years ago

lol that 911gate page is crap and debunked nothing.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yep. But folks insist on reseeding the lies and deceptions here, so I thought I'd at least provide the links for the folks who do not remember the results. We can't have nothing BUT the crazy videos floating around here.

[-] 0 points by EXPOSED (222) 7 years ago

Ya, but 911GATE pretty much destroyed all those videos above...

Anyways all this debunking the debunkers on both sides is useless, this will only be settled by a a new proper, independent investigation which is well funded and based on transparency, something in which the 9/11 Report fails abysmally.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Puhleez! There's no new evidence but there ARE a lot of people making money off it.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Really? I've been at this for years. I've SPENT a lot of money on it, but I haven't made much. Richard Gage is making a modest income for his activism, but he was making far more at the job he left to take up this cause. Steven E. Jones lost his job due to his research, statements and publications. Likewise for Kevin Ryan. Trust me, the people getting rich off 9/11 the Larry Silverstein's of the world.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

It would be a proper demand for a people's movement that such an investigation take place. 80,000 New Yorkers signed a petition asking just that and got ignored.

[-] -1 points by DunkinDonut (11) 7 years ago

The 9/11 terrorist begin learning to fly on July3, 2000 and for the next several months others go to flight school in Florida. In July of 2000, Clinton was the President and Bush was not even nominated by the GOP. Blame Bush all you want, but this happened on Clintons watch.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I don't blame it on anyone except those extremists who carried out the attacks. Clinton knew about Al-Qaeda, and they attacked several USA facilities before 9/11, but he was only willing to do the politically safe thing and toss a few Tomahawks at them. The Bush administration knew something was up, but according to the investigation, our various departments and agencies failed to connect the dots. We MIGHT have been able to thwart the attacks had we been more efficient, but the Terrorists are to blame for the attacks and no one else.

[-] 0 points by DunkinDonut (11) 7 years ago

To support Bush, he only had a few months to get up to speed. Remember, Gore took the election process to the Supreme Court for months. Typically a new president has an indepth transition period to learn from the outgoing president. This was not allowed until Bush was announced the winner months later.

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Fair enough !

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

Wow what an absolutely absurd claim to put this on "Clinton's watch". How completely delusional are you anyway?

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Bin Laden/al-Qaida were identified as the folks behind the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 and the 1998 bombings of two US Embassies in Africa. In response, Bill Clinton ordered missile strikes against al-Qaida's training camps in Afghanistan. Read the news report from CNN at http://articles.cnn.com/1998-08-20/us/9808_20_us.strikes.01_1_sudanese-television-bin-mullah-abdullah?_s=PM:US

I didn't say Clinton was in office when the 9/11 attacks occurred, but he was certainly in office when they were being planned. What I said was he was fully aware of Bin Laden et al, and had the intelligence system been working better. we might have been able to thwart the 9/11 attacks.

[-] 0 points by DunkinDonut (11) 7 years ago

Terrorists entered an FAA certified flight school in Florida beginning on July 3, 2000, while Clinton was president. What part of that timeline established would be absurd? It happened on his watch.

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

The WTC attacks did not happen on Clintons watch. If you think you will convince people that it did, you are a bigger idiot than I initially thought. That claim is absurd. If you believe that than you sir are dillusional. Wake up. This is why OWS seems to not like republicans. Because most of the ones, not all, that post on here are completely detached from reality. Let me say it again. Not all republicans. I have read some pretty smart stuff from repubs on here. But you sir fall under "quack"!

[-] -1 points by DunkinDonut (11) 7 years ago

I NEVER said the WTC attack happened during Clinton. There is a "CLAIM" that the Bush administration conspired to bring down the towers. I'm saying that if you turn around, follow the timeline back to the beginning, Bush was NOT in office or even the GOP candidate when the terrorists went to flight school on July 3, 2000 while CLinton was president. I say a Bush conspiracy is false based on who was president when the terrorists learned to fly.

[-] 2 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

Even the official story is a conspiracy theory. There are no 100% scientific facts to corroborate the official story either. If they want complete closure, why not just reinvestigate it independently and shut everyone up. If their official story is true then there is nothing to be afraid of and the truthers will be proven wrong. Why is the government so scared to talk about this? It just wreaks of suspicion. What will a new inquiry hurt?

[-] 0 points by DunkinDonut (11) 7 years ago

That will cost a lot of money. Will those that think there is a conspiracy pay for it?

[-] -1 points by silverspider (33) 7 years ago

It only becomes a conspiracy theory when Mossad involvement is traced to the WTC attacks....silence...confusion...divide....conquer

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Which they have not. Furthermore, I don't think the Anti-Semite/Anti-Israel crowd posting from God knows what countries is getting much traction in these forums. What people seem to fail to understand about us Americans is that we really don't go for persecuting people based on race or religion (and we're working on sexual orientation).

[-] 0 points by silverspider (33) 7 years ago

The media doesn't crucify moslems every single day? Meanwhile zionists are glorified as the good guys - terrorists like Netanyahu, Strauss-Kahn, Soros, etc....calling out zionists for what they are has nothing to do with antisemitism....

So you honestly think moslems with box cutters took down the USA that day on 9/11....I doubt it....this is the silliest conspiracy theory I've ever heard....there is no proof of it happening...oh wait, a telephone call.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

No, the media doesn't crucify Muslims everyday. In fact, I recall all of the media and the President decrying the nutjob in the south who wanted to burn copies of the Qur'an. Better yet, we fought in their defense when the Christians were killing them during the Serbia/Croatia conflict.

There we witnesses to what they were doing on the flight that the passengers heroically brought down in Pennsylvania. Oh, wait, you probably think that was a myth as well.

[-] -1 points by silverspider (33) 7 years ago

What country do you live in? The reason all posts regarding zionist bankers, Israel human rights violations, billions of tax dollars to Israel, Mossad involvement with 9/11, the issue of dual citizenship in our government (Israeli/USA citizens), Netanyahu's questionable character (he's a terrorist) and fruitless Middle Eastern wars are ignored is because of the jewish involvement within this movement. Isn't it antisemitic that we've went into these countries (Iraq and Afghanistan), killing plenty of arabs in search of "weapons of mass destruction?" We have also invaded these countries thinking that a Western style of living is better for them than what they currently have....isn't this arrogant? Also, Israel is not really a true democracy to begin with but they claim to be the only democracy over in the middle east - all horse shit to me. I guess what ever creates a safe haven for Israel (and the potential for oil) is good for US citizens and our government...

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I live in America. How about you ?

As for whether Democracy may be a better form of government for many middle eastern countries, I guess I'll have to defer to the people of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria, and Yemen. They seem to think perhaps it is.

[-] -1 points by silverspider (33) 7 years ago

That wasn't the point....countries change when they want to, when they are ready for it....these Middle Eastern countries do not need the USA and Israel (not a real democracy) using military might to tell them democracy is best. Plus, all the countries you mention do not have a stable democracy...they are all going through great turmoil to establish a stable government....

[-] -1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

Is our government capable of such atrocities?...Sure it is! To me all that is required is that you sit on your hands and do nothing, knowing that an event is in the planning or underway. Is that a conspiracy? Or is that just the fucking way we operate?

Knowing that US foreign policy is going to cause a certain amount of blowback and here we had our superior intelligence agencies, that could not figure this out!.

Problem is, right now you have a government out of control of "The people" and in the control of Bankers and Corporations..9/11 was the catalyzing event, that's all.

So do I give a crap how many seconds it took for WTC1, WTC2, to fall or WTC7 to get "pulled"..Nope..Because those teeny tiny details don't really matter.

Just ask yourselves, can I trust a government that is so incompetent on one day, then has it all together the next?.

This whole fucking government has turned out to be one giant conspiracy ponzi scheme, a weapon of mass destruction on the American Populace..

9/11 is just a symptom of that.

[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Your position is basically, let's go yelling about "the government" being screwed up, but don't waste our time trying to figure out what that means. Once you get your mind around the fact that 9/11 was one huge psyop by an incredibly powerful and tiny faction who has our entire system by the short-hairs, you will have a clue as to how to fix this. But 9/11 is just a start.

Take a look at TWA 800, the OKC bombing, Pearl Harbor, the JFK and JFK Jr. assassinations, etc.

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[-] 0 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

All I'm saying is that once you "figure it out" try getting some of the sheeple, friends or family to believe what they would never accept....One thing they will accept is how far down our country has slid after 9/11, if they care to connect the dots after that, then great...

You can't force people to think..

[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 Truth is the Key

If there are a sufficient number of people in the overall population who are aware of the Truth and make an effort to inform others, there will be an awakening. The problem is that most people still trust the MSM enough to believe that if 9/11 Truth had substance, it would be all over the nightly news. So, yes, the MSM is a big part of the problem. They need to be exposed for the fraud that they are.

[-] -1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

Agreed...maybe I've actually given up on my species. If people believe the "news" is the "truth" ..Then I don't know what's left to be said to them...

Like you said, this country has been psyoped and we have our Manchurian Candidate President from Hell as leader..

Funny, I've been calling him that for a year now, then I watched the new "Manchurian Candidate" last night...

Obama and BIC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_International_Corporation

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

@ nickh : Salut et à toi et 'entre nous' : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29234.htm ! D'accord ? ;-)

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Tarpley's been calling him Manchurian Candidate for years. Yes, I don't need to click the link to know that Barry is a Company Man. He's not the only on. Bush Jr. did Company work in Mena. Both Clintons did Company work. Bush Sr. Was a Company man all of his life, and so way his father.

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

Did not know that..

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Which part?

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

Trying to find references as to who worked where...Have any links?

[-] 1 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

Thanks!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

nh : U R wlcm & 4 U 2 ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZBefrTszxU ;-)

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Regarding whom?

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Nobody would say 9/11 was handled by a government that 'has it all together.' Have you read the official report? It's full of errors and missteps... just as one would expect.

I have had the priviledge over my 55 some years of knowing hundreds of senior military people. My daughter and her friends are active duty, and I'm ex-military. None of them would participate in such a crime nor remain silent of they had heard of one. There may be some bad apples, but not enough to pull of such a crime or keep it secret. You have heard of Daniel Ellsburg and Bradley Manning haven't you?

I am appalled by people who believe they and their circle of close friends exhibit the highest moral character but assume their fellow man is not to be trusted. The average American is just like you and yours on average. Some may be readily corrupted for financial gain, but I bet even Bernie Madoff would stop short of killing thousands of Americans for financial gain.

I'm sorry you have so much disdain for your fellow man.

[-] 3 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

I was in the military also..One thing I learned was to take Orders and when someone tells you to do something in the military, generally you do it..Whether you like it or not..If you work with nukes, you don't go crying to the base pastor about how nuclear weapons are immoral because you'll end up getting the boot/dishonorable discharge! You know this. You shut up and do as your told..and you will do what the commander in chief wants or else.

Your daughter and her friends are active duty? In Iraq maybe? It's a freaking illegal war, I hope someone has the chance to speak up before they get blown to bits..Oh I forgot and so did you, they can't say anything, they are active duty and they have to do as they are told, shut up or face getting the boot/dishonorable discharge!

Did I think the military was involved in this? No..I don't....The military was involved in lots of exercises on 9/11...Just a coincidence that they were so busied up..But that's not their fault..Just doing as told!

If you think the commander in chief or anyone, even "senior military people" is on some sort of morale high ground or can't be duped, by evil bastards, you're wrong!...

Who used bad intelligence to invade Iraq: Colin Powell, Yes and he regrets it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU6KMYlDyWc

"Daniel Ellsburg and Bradley Manning", you are talking about two people in over 40 years! A statistical rarity if ever there was one..

I don't distrust my fellow man, I distrust people who say one thing and do something else..I give everyone a chance to prove to me that they aren't selfish maniacal narcissists on an insane power trip..

So far the Congress, this administration and the last two administrations have not been able to provide such proof....

You must think age and authority are the prerequisites of wisdom and enlightenment...No, it just makes you even more dependent on a system that calls for your submissiveness and enslavement.

The system is run by corrupt people and as long as we are all in it and are forced to participate, we has all been corrupted...

YOU WANT A JOB DON'T YOU! YOU WANT TO LIVE DON'T YOU? THEN YOU MUST DO WHAT THE SYSTEM WANTS! YOU ARE CORRUPTED!

[-] 1 points by ScrewyL (809) 7 years ago

That's why I'll never join the military. Self-defense is an absolute right I enforce with my own hands. Murder, however, is wrong.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

So you're saying that if someone ordered you to kill 3,000 of your fellow Americans you would do so ? You probably don't know that the reason why America has 'enough nukes to blow up the planet 10 times over' is because test after test has shown that only a small fraction of the missile silo operators actually push the button when told. You are also ignoring the fact that it's the simple unwillingness of the soldiers to kill citizens in mass that allowed freedom in India, Egypt, etc. Recent fact alone contradicts your assertion that soldiers will kill civilians without pause.

As for Colin Powell, scroll into to the 6 minute, 49 second mark (6:49) and listen carefully to what he says. If you know anything about intelligence, you understand the importance of sources and interpretation. We clearly made mistakes in both regarding SOME of the information, and our leaders perhaps did not dig deeply enough into the quality of ALL intelligence before making their decision. Human error, however, is a far cry from conspiracy.

Daniel Ellsburg and Bradley Manning are only two examples of insiders reporting wrong doing. This happens every day regarding minor matters, and it would certainly occur when discussing the slaughter of 3,000 American citizens. Who, by the way, do you think leaked the Abu Ghraib photos? Also, why didn't the president simply let a UK operator kill Anwar al-Awlaki or simply declare the killing was classified in order to avoid the scandal of killing a US citizen ? Contemporary examples serve to disprove that our citizens can be made to remain silent in the face of an abhorrent crime involving the murder of 3,000 American citizens.

Like all youth, including myself when I was young, you assume the experience of 'old people' is not to be trusted. It's a natural consequence of lacking any real experience in the reality of things, and it produces nearly all idealistic movements that seek to draw the world in black and white. Being reminded of ideals is a good thing for a society, and I don't begrudge the fact that it happens, but the world and the people who live on it defy definition in pure black and white.

Consider, for example, where the radical revolutionaries of the 1960's movement are today. That's you in 30-50 years. Please save me from having to hear how different you and your generation are from those that came before. You're not. My generation has BEEN where you are, but you have not been where WE are. You'll never understand until you get here yourself.

[-] 2 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

"So you're saying that if someone ordered you to kill 3,000 of your fellow Americans you would do so ?"

No, that would be to callous, I would have CIA trained operative Osama Bin Laden train folks to do it for me..

"As for Colin Powell, scroll into to the 6 minute, 49 second mark (6:49) and listen carefully to what he says. If you know anything about intelligence, you understand the importance of sources and interpretation. We clearly made mistakes in both regarding SOME of the information, and our leaders perhaps did not dig deeply enough into the quality of ALL intelligence before making their decision. Human error, however, is a far cry from conspiracy."

Lot's of so called "errors" and "who would have thoughts" by our idiot elected leaders and their appointed stooges.

"Daniel Ellsburg and Bradley Manning are only two examples of insiders reporting wrong doing. This happens every day regarding minor matters, and it would certainly occur when discussing the slaughter of 3,000 American citizens. Who, by the way, do you think leaked the Abu Ghraib photos? Also, why didn't the president simply let a UK operator kill Anwar al-Awlaki or simply declare the killing was classified in order to avoid the scandal of killing a US citizen ? Contemporary examples serve to disprove that our citizens can be made to remain silent in the face of an abhorrent crime involving the murder of 3,000 American citizens."

Abu Ghraib was only made seen because some folks took pictures and someone found out about those pictures..The folks who got in trouble...People taking the pictures..Not the torturers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

Anwar- Al-Awlaki ..Where's the body? How about Osama's body.? Both CIA operatives at one time.

"Like all youth, including myself when I was young, you assume the experience of 'old people' is not to be trusted. It's a natural consequence of lacking any real experience in the reality of things, and it produces nearly all idealistic movements that seek to draw the world in black and white. Being reminded of ideals is a good thing for a society, and I don't begrudge the fact that it happens, but the world and the people who live on it defy definition in pure black and white."

I'm in my 40's...Sir. I trust no man unless that trust is earned and that is through deeds..

If your a baby boomer, I'm sorry you guys started with everything and fucking sold out your freedoms and liberty for some BS American Dream and screwed your own grandchildren in the process of consuming and "getting yours". No you haven't had it as bad in regard to the lack of opportunity out there..This rivals the 30's and you're not that old...

As far as revolutions and revolutionaries, they come and go when it is necessary.. That's just history...

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Well, I at least got you to call our leaders idiots in the grand American tradition rather than conspirators. That's a little progress ;o)

Your statements about who was punished are simply wrong per the link you yourself provided. Far more than just the picture takers were punished. Some argue that more officers should have been punished and fewer enlisted, but folks who understand the Milgram experiment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment ), understand that the way to stop this kind of problem is to send a message to the lower levels that it will not be tolerated even when ordered.

I wish you and yours the best in this holiday season !

[-] 0 points by nickhowdy (1104) 7 years ago

I wish you and everyone on this forum a great holiday season also..I just wish that Christmas was about the actual teachings of Christ and all the enlightened ones that came before, instead of just worship and the base materialism which we see today.

As far as the Milgram experiment it is both the responsibility of the authority and the subject to stop and think about what they are doing...

When you are hurting others you need to STOP!

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I reflect on God and Christ several times a day. I am with you on that, if nothing more !

[-] 1 points by fucorporatemedia (451) 7 years ago

How does the active military explain the lack of response by NORAD on 9/11?

They have to be asking themselves why Payne Stewart's plane was intercepted within minutes, but they couldn't intercept 4 hijacked planes for over an hour?

If the air force would have reacted like they do on a normal day, following their standard procedure which would have interceptors in the air within 5 minutes of a transponder being shut off or a plane veering off course, those planes would have been intercepted, even before the first plane hit.

How do people in the military explain that their leader Donald Rumsfeld was the only person on the planet that had no idea what happened (the entire world was glued to the TV screen) until a plane hit the Pentagon? They really believe that? Then they must think the Pentagon is incredibly incompetent so why would they follow them into illegal wars?

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

NORAD is typically looking for foreign military aircraft and missiles. They now look for regular aircraft that may have been hijacked with the intent of causing destruction, but they didn't really have a good policy in place regarding what to do about civilian aircraft that have deviated from their flight plan in 9/11.

Why would the SecDef necessarily be informed that civilian airliners hit a commercial building ? The SecDef is often in classified meetings where there are no cell-phones, TVs, etc. It's not at all clear his staff would have interrupted such a meeting for what appeared to be a civilian problem. He would be immediately informed of an attack on the Pentagon because that's in his realm of responsibility.

[-] 2 points by fucorporatemedia (451) 7 years ago

NORAD sure showed up fast for Payne Stewart's plane. They weren't just 'looking outward' - the stupid excuse given by Rumsfeld to the 9/11 commission. That is so laughably stupid. You really think that our military is that incompetent? Go watch the movie from the 80's "War Games"...NORAD has had the technology to watch planes on radar. both looking inward and outward for some years now LOL

Right, the entire world was watching the twin towers burn in NY, but no one thought it was important enough to interrupt Rumsfeld's meeting.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

You get your information about NORAD from "War Games" ????

Not even worth a response.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

Bradley Manning? Look where he is. Alone.

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yes. He commited treason. Read up on the Supreme Court rulings surrounding Daniel Ellsburg. The courts ruled that some folks who break their security agreement can rightly be viewed as 'whistle-blowers' and must be protected from prosecution lest crimes be hidden under the 'classified' label. In Bradely Manning's case, he wasn't 'whistle-blowing' to expose some great wrongdoing, he was simply alienated due to his sexual orientation and sought only to harm those he felt wronged him.

Nevertheless, I used Bradley Manning as an example of how hard it is to keep secrets. The 911 conspiracy theories require literally thousands of people remain silent. That's just not realistic.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

Manning exposed high treason. You cite him and indict him.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I cited him as an example of how hard it is to keep secrets. I abhor what he did, but I also abhor these insane conspiracy theories that claim several thousand of my fellow citizens committed the greatest crime in our history and managed to keep it secret.

[-] -1 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 7 years ago

Hi Rico. Ready for an engineering challenge? BTW, I respect very much that you've posted with your opinions, that you are an engineer and I understand exactly why you have them. I only work with evidence and reason.

I also work in civil engineering as a surveyor and draftsman with skills in blasting, grading, welding and concrete.

[-] -2 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 was an inside job. All you are doing is killing strawmen while showing your hind side. I'm the one who persuaded the Loose Change producers that a plane hit the Pentagon. It doesn't matter whether the glowing steel pulled from the rubble was molten. There is no way to account for the heat in terms of building materials.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I gather you're not an engineer.

[-] -1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Ae911truth.org

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I'll take that as a "no." Lacking understanding of engineering and physics, you can't evaluate whether the analysis someone performs is reasonable or whether alternate explanations are equally reasonable. Far more people with sufficient qualifications agree with the "standard story," and I have evaluated the engineering/physics and agree.

Even lacking engineering/physics, the conspiracies people are advocating just don't hold up to scrutiny. First, the Bush administration came into power only a few months before 9/11, and that's simply not enough time to pull off something this elaborate (note we knew about Bin Laden even during the Clinton years, and Clinton did try to kill him with tomahawk attacks on the training camps in Afghanistan back in 1998). Second, the proposed conspiracy involves far too many people for any reasonable person to accept the idea such a heinous crime could be kept secret. Third, the conspiracy assumes that normal everyday people with everyday morals and ethics suddenly became evil only a few months after taking office. Fourth, the conspiracy assumes our military was complicit, and based on my intimate knowledge of these people, that's simply absurd. Finally, the conspiracy assumes my friend who was booked on the pentagon flight did not die and that the remains that were buried were not his.

This whole conspiracy theory fails the "giggle test."

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

I have made several contributions to The Feynman Lectures on Physics, errata. I read graduate level physics for sport.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Really ? Please summarize the current issues with the Standard Models of both the atom (quantum) and the cosmos (relativity).

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Acuasality is BS. What is the global topology of Universe?

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

That's all you can come up with ? I expected more from someone who "made several contributions to The Feynman Lectures on Physics, errata."

I'm not the one, by the way claiming to be the world-class physicist capable of editing Feynman, so I don't really have to prove anything. I could, however, come up with a better response than "Acuasality [sic] is BW. What is the global topology of [the] Universe."

[-] 1 points by blackbloc (-19) 7 years ago

my uncle is in the science and engineering hall of fame his name is arnold silver he is sure that 9-11 was not kosher as we jews say. google him he is no joke.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

LOL ! I 'm glad my questions have sufficient ambiguity to prevent easy searches for answers. Keep searching, maybe you'll find something relevant.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 was an inside job.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Right, and you "have made several contributions to The Feynman Lectures on Physics, errata" yet you can't even answer a pretty simply set of questions regarding the current issues in physics.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

K meson decay asymmetry?

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Why would you list this is an issue or something of significance ?

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

There's no more room to comment on 'blackbloc' comment below, so I'll do it here....

It took 'fjolsvit' several hours to come up with his response. Had he searched the internet more effectively, he would have found a list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_physics and responded within minutes.

A person capable of editing Feynman would have had the issues right off the top of his head. I don't give credit for being able to do Internet searches.

[-] 0 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Because it is the only known asymmetry between matter and anti-matter. It may explain why there is residual matter surviving the primordial symmetry freeze. It will probably be a key to understanding both the smallest and largest scale of physics.

[-] -1 points by blackbloc (-19) 7 years ago

damn son he pimp slapped you it's like you walked right into his trap and then he sprung it lmfao

[-] -3 points by Spankysmojo (849) 7 years ago

I don't even have to watch them to know they are bunk. 911 is what it is. Jealous murderers attacking a free country with willing women in it.

[-] -2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

LOL ! I'm not too sure about the women thing, but I agree it was terrorism, nothing more.

[-] -3 points by fishb8 (62) 7 years ago

Truthers, Ancient Astronaut-ists, Big-Footers, Crop Circlists, Abduction Researchers, Climate Hysteria-ists, and many other "Progressive" psuedo-scientists alway run the science backwards. Starting with their preferred conclusion and working backwards to a hypothesis. Miopic, narrow, pre-judgemental....occupiers

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yep. The Age of Reason is Dead, Long Live the Age of Uneducated Opinion !

[-] 1 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 7 years ago

Hi Rico. Ready for an engineering challenge? BTW, I respect very much that you've posted with your opinions, that you are an engineer and I understand exactly why you have them. I only work with evidence and reason.

I also work in civil engineering as a surveyor and draftsman with skills in blasting, grading, welding and concrete.

[-] -1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I suspect you'd be better off in a challenge with my son who is a Mechanical Engineer. My engineering is at the Systems level which requires I be knowledgeable in all fields of engineering, but my original/deep specialty was not mechanical.

Besides my training in analytical methods, I also have a two experiences that others lack when evaluating these conspiracies.

First, I happen to have known hundreds of senior military personnel over my 55 some years. My daughter and her friends are active duty today, and I am ex-military myself. None of them would participate in the suggested conspiracy, nor would they remain silent if they knew of such actions. There is simply no way such a broad conspiracy could be constructed nor kept silent. People who serve in the military and government share the same general ethics as you and your circle of friends; they do not suddenly become inhuman upon entering service. There are a few bad outliers (i.e. Madoff), but not enough to pull off such a grand conspiracy or keep it secret.

Second, one of my work associates was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. His wife was one of the lucky ones who actually had a pretty intact body to bury.

[-] 2 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 7 years ago

My condolences for the losses you've known and seen endured.

Firstly, I know far more about secrecy than you can find written anywhere except where I presented the consolidated facts of psychology, with competent inference and deduction, that control such profound mental actions. The secrecy and silence issue control what you know about the ultimate forms of secrecy. This is not the topic here beyond bringing up what you don't know applying to that.

I will simply remind you of a loss this nation suffered, the assassination of a great man, a president, JFK, and his position on secrecy in this nation.

http://algoxy.com/psych/audio/jfk_secrecy.mp3

It was broad and nearly completely kept silent.

The engineering challenge is very different and deals with the ability to recognize building materials, designs and techniques in their related positions during construction and collapse. Not rocket science at all.

When discussing an event such as 1,350 foot buildings going to the ground in 10 seconds plus, the very first thing which must be established is the structure that stood. What was its design and construction? Therein is a deception. Not a theory either. That will be known when you realize the truth movement is completely deceived about the structural core of the tower.

Regarding that I know for a fact that everyone was deceived by FEMA acting in conspiracy with PBS, silverstein and guliani.

Here is a page with the basic deception outlined in considerable detail.

http://algoxy.com/conc/fema_deception.html

Below is some of what I've done with these facts to get lawful performance from government, and very clearly, they are not functional under the constitution or their oath. Pages dealing with my "Disclosure of Treason" under Title 18, Pt.1 Chap. 115, § 2382 to a US district court judge.

http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11title_18.disclosure.html http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11title_18.civreassign.html http://algoxy.com/psych/9-11title_18.civreasign1.html

You will find my demo theory on the site as well, but that is not something I'm discussing here. I will only post a link to a Ph.D's site who has a doctorate in physics from coronell, specifically in material testing. Dr. Ron Larsen made a page about what he calls my "demo model"

http://libertycalling.com/cbrowndemomodel.htm

After seeing what I allege is the true structure, try and get richard gage or anyone in the truth movement to show you an image of the core they believe stood, the one FEMA described, during 9-11, standing in the core area you will realize something is very wrong. When you find nothing and when you find that all descriptions that describe that core which is never seen on 9-11, lead back to FEMA or NIST that believes them when they should not, and only describes the sources of their structural data in their disclaimer, then you will realize that this deception disabled the truth and enabled this darkness descending upon us politically.

Then article 5 of the US constitution will mean sooooooooo much more:) -

[-] 1 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 7 years ago

ChristopherABrownART5, in case you have not noticed this website has been under conscious and concerted cyber attack by the state directly and indirectly in attempt to demoralize the OWS members and the broader public. This further proves the point that reform under capitalism is a fantasy, and only replacing it by a new economic system without any type of private ownership (i.e., money or else) which feeds the beast in form of profit is the real answer. These guys are growing desperate and won't stop until they have eaten you alive. They also have nuclear war plans on the wings continuing their escape goat - extermination tactics for mass internal repression. Time to radicalize and reach out more to the masses. The class war is escalating. It is looking more and more like the situation around WWI and WWII when capitalism was at the ropes and trying all kinds of conspiracies (including Hitler's burning of the Reichstadt and Roosevelt's de facto snare tactic to have the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor). The >99% will reclaim the world from the shrinking <1% and their stooges.

[-] 2 points by rayolite (461) 7 years ago

Evolution001 Time to radicalize and reach out more to the masses.


Reach and numbers do not have the needed authority unless they reach for the proper tool. This is why article 5 is the tool. You've never known a constitutional government, that is why these problems exist.

Evolution001


reform under capitalism is a fantasy


Reform under secrecy is impossible. Mind control is what is happenning. Paedophilia and ancient forms of hypnosis exploiting instincts. There is a thread here about it.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/how-are-the-georgia-guidestones-connected-to-polit/

Capitalism is not fascism. Improperly operated government in a capitalistic society often leads to greater corruption and fascism with Imperialism. These things are true.

When we discover that the same knowledge that keeps us free from being dominated by secrecy, also empowers our greatest rewards when we use it fearlessly for the right reasons, because to do other wise is to fail because you fear your self and your own kind in the biggest way. The unconscious mind.

In that light, America could practice spiritual capitalism in the light of the truth about what hypnosis was and can be for a sustainable world prempting the nwo agendas imposed on us secretly.

[-] 1 points by Evolution001 (100) from Vancouver, BC 7 years ago

The problem with capitalism is that it is a competitive exclusive economic system. Capitalists have to even kill each other directly or by coercion / mergers and acquisition to maintain and gain competitive advantage. They do this because their constant need to grow or fail, even at the risk of undermining the system itself which they eventually destroy. So it is the capitalists who kill capitalism, just as cancer cells destroy not just normal tissue but also each other and eventually the host body, killing themselves.

[-] -1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

The remnants of the core are pretty visible in the video at http://youtu.be/nIZp6aOibiM . That sure doesn't look like concrete to my eye.

I'm not surprised you ran into the trouble you did regarding your legal actions. I think most people are like myself in believing this matter was long ago closed, and you are accusing a lot of people of complicity in a terrible crime.

Personally, I'm glad the "system" derailed you.

[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 7 years ago

why if there is nothing to hide you figure its the govt everything should be a go

[-] 0 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

There is nothing being hidden, it's just that the 'truthers' want folks to prove a non-event. As an example of the difficulty in proving a non-event, explain how you would once and for all disprove the existence of ghosts or the fallibility of horoscopes.

[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 7 years ago

i think everyone is just looking for some transparency which we def are not getting from us officials in the know

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I think everything is pretty much out there except for what is classified intelligence ( I believe, for example, that we knew something was up, but didn't know exactly when or where). No matter how much material is out there, however, it does not good in the hands of people who can't understand physics and engineering yet, if I can borrow from Pres Obama, cling to their fears and suspicions. The vast majority of all people equipped to understand the evidence support the "standard story," and the few that don't are just having a heck of a fun time fueling the fears and suspicions of those who are not.

[-] 0 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

A real investigation... Well, thinking it over I believe this is not going to happen. Not in our era anyhow. Just as doubts around the JFK assassination persist among large segments of popular opinion, and these doubts fuel skepticism towards "official truths" this I think is the fate of "911 Truth." It will be with us for decades to come, it will fuel skepticism and dissent and it will not be resolved.

http://911blogger.com/news/2011-11-02/911-theories-expert-vs-expert

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I agree, and just like the JFK "mystery" we will see the occasional book, documentary, etc rehashing the 'conspiracy' for profit and nielsen ratings. As for me, I consider it settled until such time as more of the intelligence files are declassified. I don't expect them to show a conspiracy, but I am interested in how much we knew/know about the events and participants in the 9/11 tragedy.

[-] 1 points by alouis (1511) from New York, NY 7 years ago

"I am interested in how much we knew/know about the events and participants in the 9/11 tragedy."

I'd venture to say "we" knew nothing, while the state, led by cheyney knew a whole damned lot.

[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 7 years ago

but there was a conspiracy in the kennedy assassination the United States House Select Committee on Assassinations even admitted as much and i for one am pissed they subverted our democracy and to what end is the greatest question of all

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Let's do a little fact checking...

From the summary report at http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/ : "The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy"

Per http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/title-page.html , the Subcommittee on the Assassination of John F. Kennedy was comprised of 7 members, and per http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-4.html , three of the seven members dissented .

Given the reports use of "probably" in their conclusion and the dissent of 3 out of 7 panel members, I'd say it's far from clear we can say there was a conspiracy behind the assassination of JFK.

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

I can't respond to 'blackbloc's comment below, so I am doing it here.


'blacbloc' you seriously need to do better fact checking ! Executive order had nothing to do with killing the Fed, in fact JFK wanted to expand the role of the Fed by replacing silver with Federal Reserve Notes !

Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_11110 , "On November 28, 1961, President Kennedy halted sales of silver by the Treasury Department. Increasing demand of silver as an industrial metal had led to an increase in the market price of silver above the United States government's fixed price. This led to a decline in the government's excess silver reserves by over 80% during 1961. President Kennedy also called upon Congress to phase out silver certificates in favor of Federal Reserve notes.... The House of Representatives took up the President's request early in 1963, and passed HR 5389 on April 10, 1963, by a vote of 251 to 122. The Senate passed the bill on May 23, by a vote of 68 to 10... President Kennedy signed the bill into law on June 4, 1963 and also signed an executive order (11110) authorizing the Treasury Secretary to continue printing silver certificates during the transition period."

Executive order 11110 expanded the Federal Reserve's role.

[-] 0 points by blackbloc (-19) 7 years ago

there is plenty of evidence that there was a conspiracy it really is a moot point they killed him because he was gonna kill the fed see executive order 11110

[-] 0 points by ChristopherABrownART5 (46) from Santa Barbara, CA 7 years ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-truth-about-911-exposed/#comment-458498

Okay, you have no images of the core structure that you also fail to identify and present a video that has these basic images, the concrete is almost out of the picture below,

http://algoxy.com/conc/images/north_tower_spire1.jpg http://algoxy.com/conc/images/north_tower_spire2.jpg

This image shows the WTC 2 concrete core standing at about 1/2 building height NO steel core columns protrude from the center,

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/southcorestands.gif

So you not posted any of the core you also fail to identify and attempt to deny that what is seen is concrete. These images are from my site which you would know if you looked. They are fully annotated to show the vertical steel of you video to be steel columns surrounding the core not in the core.

http://algoxy.com/conc/images/north_tower_spire1.jpg http://algoxy.com/conc/images/north_tower_spire2.jpg

The vertical steel in the core was "elevator guide rail support steel" misrepresented as core columns. Fully annotated image to show items core columns will not have and that there is no diagonal bracing and no gusset plates which are required on the kind of structure FEMA describes by are never seen in your video or anywhere else.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/elev_guide.rail.supp.jpg

This is a animated .gif showing a massive concrete wall

http://algoxy.com/conc/images/core_animation_75.gif

The core of the Twins was a rectangular steel reinforced cast concrete tube. FEMA lied and the mislead truth movement believed them without question.

http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

How about a senator referring to 9-11 as a 30 year conspiracy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDfm3NroVG8

More annotated images proving that all the vertical steel seen standing is outside the core area. No steel core columns inside the core. They did not exist.

http://algoxy.com/psych/images/shearspirewall.jpg http://algoxy.com/conc/images/wtc1.spire.hudson.annote1.jpg http://algoxy.com/psych/images/wtc1spirecorewall.jpg

Accordingly, all of your information is wrong and you cannot prove otherwise. It is okay to expose treason but you seem to think not and have no evidence justifying the position.

[-] 0 points by TechJunkie (3029) from Miami Beach, FL 7 years ago
[-] -1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Do you even know who Thomas Paine was? I believe you are referring to postmodernism.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/father-of-reaganomics-now-a-911-truther-and-radica/

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yes, but I couldn't figure out why you brought him up until I remembered he wrote a book called 'The Age of Reason." I was not referring to that book, I was referring to the Enlightenment, sometimes called the 'Age of Reason.' See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

[-] -1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Have you bothered to read Descartes? "cogito style sum"?

[-] 3 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Your disrespectful tone is not very constructive. See ya.

[-] -2 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Go play with Mr. Concrete Cores.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

And you can please go play.... somewhere else . You are one of the most uninformed, destructive, and disrespectful posters on this site.

[-] -3 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Sore loser.

[-] -1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 was an inside job.

[-] 0 points by RichardGayTits (293) 7 years ago

This guy, Rico is a joke. He keeps turning up with Richardkentgates, Thrasymaque, Glaucon, Puff6269-not 6962 and a few others. I am pretty sure he is RichardGates

Did you look at the amature videos? What a bunch crap.

Did you notice that this site about 911 didn't seem to bother Thrasymaque (the defender of the government version).like the others. I guess 911 stuff is cool if it supports the Government conspiracy that we were sold

[-] 2 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 Truth will prevail because it's right.

[-] 3 points by RichardGayTits (293) 7 years ago

I really didn't pay much attention to the 911 thing until I saw the efforts on this sight to suppress it.

From everything I have learned from the links it could not have happened the way we were told.

And look at this thread. It is as if these people have a vested interest in protecting the government story.

They don't want another version even entertained.

They don't want people to hear another opinion..........Hmmm

[-] 2 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

9/11 Truth is a difficult awakening. Once I realized the OTC was BS, I felt compelled to spread the word and find the truth about what really did happen. There are many bad sources, and none that I fully endorse. www.wtc7.net is a fairly good place to get started. Jim and Vic have done a good job with most of the facts. I adamantly differ with some of their tactics. ae911truth.org is another excellent source.

From my research I have concluded that 4 planes were electronically commandeered.

The phone calls and radio transmissions were faked (with one or two possible exceptions).

The alleged hijackers were not on the planes.

UAL 93 was shot down.

AA 77 did hit the Pentagon.

The planes executed maneuvers beyond the abilities of any human pilot.

Bremer, Kissinger, Lauder, Hauer and Silverstein are key persons of interest.

Bush was not the mastermind. Proof by reducto ad absurdum.

Cheney probably had prior knowledge and cooperated.

Mohamed Atta was a drug runner and playboy, not a devout Muslim islamakazi.

Nano-thermite (thermate) was a key incendiary (and possibly high explosive) used to demolish the WTC. Yes there is good reason to believe certain preparations of nano-thermite are highly explosive and ideal for demolition.

Some members of the Israeli Mossad were involved in the attacks.

Use those proposed facts as a starting point, and you will be well served.

[-] 2 points by RichardGayTits (293) 7 years ago

I have watched a lot of videos. And there are plenty of things that don't have a logical explanation. The 911 report seems pretty contaminated. They left out building 7?

How did you arrive at all of your conclusions? (in general)

[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

Reading the NIST report

Reading and watching news reports from the days after the attacks.

Going to Shanksville and asking questions.

Reading well-researched literature on the subject of 9/11.

Participating in discussions with scientist and engineers.

Examining the flight data from the aircraft involved.

Doing calculations for the physics involved.

Studying images from the crime scenes.

Working as a guided missile technician as well as a telecom engineer.

[-] 1 points by RichardGayTits (293) 7 years ago

You actually were involved in some investigations.

That's pretty amazing. How did the 4 airplane discovery come about.

[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

I was not involved in any of the formal "investigations". Four airplanes just makes sense. There's plenty of reason to believe UAL 93 was shot down. Nothing else makes sense. Similarly for the WTC and Pentagon. I just did 9/11 research full time for years.

[-] 3 points by RichardGayTits (293) 7 years ago

I have watched videos over a long period of time. I am definitely of the opinion that the 911 report is the true conspiracy. There are just too many farfetched explanations.

One of the debunker videos has a guy witnessing a jet engine vaporizing at impact. You have to be one dumb son of a bitch to believe that!

The more I see phony debunk videos. The more I realize it's a cover up. The more I see people try to suppress information that questions the 911 report, the more it seems like a cover up

If there’s is nothing to hide then why hide it!

[-] 1 points by fjolsvit (957) from Washington, DC 7 years ago

When I saw honest and intelligent men going to prison for questioning orthodox history, I realized the enforcers were the liars. That was before I woke up to 9/11.

[-] 0 points by turak (-812) 7 years ago

wrong: the pentagon was hit by its own missile: anyone with a brain can see the damage couldn't have been done by a large aircraft. Bush has prior knowledge: that is a FACT The entire US federal Govt, the New York authorities, FEMA, all of them were set uip in advance for the false operation, the claimed suspects were Saudi's and they are still alive and never participated in the operation.

What you can do is look for the smoking gun: the replacement of the airliners means they had to kill and dump the bodies and the missing aircraft somewhere.

Nobody has yet even brought up this important direction in the course of investigating what really happened. WHY? Because if you do the research, you'll be forced into a narrow probability area which will give you the remains of the jetliners and the bodies AND the black boxes: that's why.

Once those locations are found the rest will fall into place. They were probably dumped into the ocean but not 100% for sure; they could have been destroyed iin some other way. The Bush connections include his two brothers and his father who are all great personal friends of the Bin Laden family and share banking interests and business connections and are both guilty as hell. The MEDIA was also part of it. The entire operation reveals just how integrated the corruption at the top is with the rest of all western civilized society.

The fraud was perpetrated ON THE SCREEN in full view of the public as an exercise in sophisticated mass brainwashing tactics. The CIA orchestrated and controlled the Media as they have for ages.

[-] 1 points by badconduct (550) 7 years ago

"They don't want people to hear another opinion"

That's very false. In reality, those people have given you more than enough time. They read everything you post and put answers and debunks to everything.

In reality; they do want to hear what you have to say, so they can show that your version of events is incorrect.

[+] -6 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 7 years ago

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

LOL ! You didn't watch any of my videos did you ? They all debunk the conspiracy theories. Nevertheless, you've given the topic the attention it deserves. All I was trying to do was to ensure the videos debunking all the stupid theories were available for people to view as well.

[-] 2 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

Just because you found videos of someones opinion of debunking this conspiracy theory, doesn't make your videos fact. Like I've been told many times. Just because its on the internet doent mean its true. Ha ha. Your videos hold no more water than the ones claiming it is a conspiracy.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

LOL ! My videos are just as valid as the Internet videos people link to here in order to substantiate their case. In fact, as an engineer, I find the videos I posted to contain more science than ANY of the videos others have posted in support of a conspiracy.

Even better, I happen to have known hundreds of senior military people over my 55 some years. My daughter and her friends are currently active duty, and I am ex-military. I assure you that none of them would participate in your terrible conspiracy, nor would they remain silent if they knew of it.

Ethics and morality are not the exclusive domain of you and your circle of close friends. The general population shares them as well. While there are some outliers (i.e. Madoff), there are not enough of them to pull off such a wide conspiracy much less conceal it from public view.

[-] 2 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

I know a lot of people in the military as well and none of them would participate in it either. But do you think everyone in the military knows everything that is going on? Its called compartmentalism. You only know what you need to know. No more.

[-] 2 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

Yes, I understand compartmentalism. This would be a pretty big 'compartment'. Have you heard of Daniel Ellsberg or Bradley Manning ?

[-] 1 points by XXAnonymouSXX (455) 7 years ago

Nope but ill look into it.

[-] -3 points by Thrasymaque (-2138) 7 years ago

Oops! Silly me.

[-] -1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

No problem. I like all your signs. Leave 'em up please. ;o)

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

Coz that'll mean people won't be bothered to read the thread, right ?

[-] 1 points by Rico (3027) 7 years ago

No, I think they add some pizazz. Everyone knows how to scroll down.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 years ago

OK. Or readers can click the little [ - ] box to the left, which temporarily collapses the post. The other option of course is to vote down posts, which at -4 will stay collapsed unless readers click the [ + ] box, which'll expand the post if required. lux?!