Forum Post: What Does the 99% Actually Want?
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 3:28 p.m. EST by gibsone76m
(298)
from Washington, NJ
This content is user submitted and not an official statement
So far these are the only OWS demands I have heard...
END THE FED! JAIL BERNANKE!
END CORPORATE GREED! JAIL THE CEO'S!
RESOURCES FOR ALL!
Now, these are not going to happen...so if you are all so upset, what are some realistic demands.
I am so sick of hearing "Oh, we don't know what we want yet because the movement is still in its early stages." ...please, it has been a month already.
or..."We are deliberately not making demands." You expect people to believe that?
http://therevolutionarytruth.tumblr.com/
Equal and fair representation in government. We want our voice heard by our government. Sadly, the only voice government hears is the money talking.
I would say:
1-Repeal the Patriot Act which seriously damage our freedom 2-Hold the Fed responsible for their actions 3-Hold congressman even more responsible for their actions (as well as the Senate and the President...And the Supreme court who have been sitting on their asses) 4-(A new VERY urgent one) We should make sure we do NOT insure the $75 trillion to Bank of America!
http://seekingalpha.com/article/301260-bank-of-america-dumps-75-trillion-in-derivatives-on-u-s-taxpayers-with-federal-approval
OWS needs to start targeting very specific issues.
We have all heard the phrase " MONEY TALKS." Corporate America has come to realize this long ago and has invested huge sums of money into the election of both republicans and democrats. This in turn has greatly influenced legislation to the benefit of the 1%. If the movement is ever to accomplish providing a better future for the citizen's of this country, it has to focus on the center of the target. The bullseye is making public financing of our elections a reality. When the money that's doing the talking is our money, our elected officials will finally listen to our concerns and enact laws with the best interest of the citizens of this country.
WHat she said. Listen to this gal.
But back to the original question, what exactly are you trying to say with that voice?
100% publicly funded elections. Campaign Finance Reform.
Pay attention to her. It;s the core issue.
so then this should be occupy dc
Not necessarily. Afterall, Wall Street is the epicenter of money, greed and corruption. They wrote the book. Besides, they are also criminals and should be prosecuted by the Federal Government for the fraud they perpetrated in the financial crises. Why have they not been prosecuted? Brings us back to corruption. Its just one big circle of a perverted, disgusting, despicable, horrible mess.
Money is the problem, what is wall street if not about money.
Who should be thrown in jail...the bankers who used the messy system to their favor, or the regulators like moody's and S&P and the government who made it possible?
The government and the ratings agencies did not force Wall Street to commit fraud. The government may have helped provide an environment for greed to flourish. But even with that, Wall Street bought and paid the government for their deregulation. There's that corruption again!
Messy system or no. Wall Street bought garbage loans, which they knew were junk, and repacked and resold as AAA. Thats FRAUD. Pure and simple. There's nothing terrible complicated about it. The government had nothing to do with it. Criminal greed had everything to do with it.
So of course people should be in jail for that. Those institutions should be prosecuted by the Federal Government, the Department of Justice. How come they haven't been prosecuted? Because, for starters, Goldman Sachs is Pres. Obama's biggest contributor. There's that corruption again!
Noooo...get your facts straight. AAA is a rating given to a security at a given time until something else causes the rating to change. Just like the US Government AAA rating was downgraded recently to AA+. When the market was booming, and real estate prices were appreciating in value, and ppl were making payments on their mortgage, the security of the mortgage securities were AAA because of the on-time payment of the mortgages and the fact that the bonds were sold with bond insurance. Obviously, things changed as the economy tanked and the ratings on those bonds were downgraded to junk bond status. But there was nothing criminal about it. Should we all go to jail now that the US Debt has been downgraded? Afterall, the US sold a lot of bonds to foreign investors like the Chinese, and obviously we are not as credit worthy as we used to be .
The ratings agencies were corrupted by conflicts of interests by the Wall Street banks. They let themselves be co-opted by the banks, letting the banks influence the qualitative value and therefore ratings that they assigned to the CDO's. The bad mortgages came first, which caused the market to tank. Not the other way around. Wall Street knew the underlying mortgages were bad and pawned them off by persuading the agencies to assign them AAA ratings. Thats fraud.
10 min. video, if you don't have 10 min, fast forward and watch the last 5 minutes, to hear Prof. William Black.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3oP1aN5FVM&feature=related
Additionally, the FHFA announced about 1 month ago that they are filing fraud charges against the Wall Street banks.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-09-05/wall_street/30129126_1_mortgage-loans-goldman-sachs-fhfa
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/09/fhfa-lawsuit-vs-bank-of-america-merrill-countrywide/
The SEC is considering charges against the ratings agencies
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/aug/22/ratings-agencies-conflict-of-interest
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d5c7e34e-f67f-11e0-9381-00144feab49a.html#axzz1btYhkZZw
Many many States AG's have filed civil suits against the Wall Street banks. Many many private investor funds are filing civil suits against the banks as well. The banks are settling those out of court, paying millions, but a small pittance of the real losses. I'll let you do your own homework on that one. I don't have any links handy.
And here's a few more interesting articles for your reading pleasure.
http://m.rollingstone.com/?redirurl=/politics/news/the-people-vs-goldman-sachs-20110511
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405
Ok. There probably was fraud involved. Who were the victims of the fraud? Investors who purchased the CDOs. Who are the purchasers of CDOs? Very rich individual and other banks who are counterparty to such trades. The CDOs lost value and they all lost money and needed to be bailed out. How is the average person, the 99% affected by the loss on these investments? The bailout money? Well, most if not the majority has been returned to the government WITH interest. Ask yourself this question. WHy is the 99% so greatly affected by what's happening today? They certainly did not lose money on CDO investments since they are not reach enought to buy those products. The answer, because the people in the 99% chose not to pay their mortgages anymore. The economy tanked because of the 99%, not the 1%. THe 99% needs to take responsibility for their actions. I could have bought a house and lived beyond my means but I knew better that I should not have done so. Even if Banks swarmed around me to offer a mortgage, I knew better not to do that. People who took a mortgage and could not afford to pay for that should go to jail as well. WHy should they walk away free of any charges? Can you at least agree that people who walked away from their mortgages should also be blamed?
The 99% are affected because we all lost value in our homes and other investments. The crash, caused by Wall Street, has resulted in a horrible recession, jobless non-recovery, that we all continue to suffer for. People that took on mortgages they could not afford, were evicted, or sometimes voluntarily, had to leave their homes. I think that is punishment enough for them. Everyone has been appropriately punished and suffer the disasterous results of high unemployment. Everyone is punished except Wall Street.
How is the crash caused by Wall Street? If 99% of the people continued to pay their mortgages, no one would have foreclosed and the CDOs would have retained their values and no bailout would have been needed. More houses would have been built and the economy would have kept going up and up. Are you out of your mind?
Moody's and S&P are not regulators. They are rating agencies. Aside from putting bankers in jail, let's also put people who took out loans that they knew they could not afford to pay. They are just as guilty as the bankers.
*rating agencies, you are right, and I agree with the comment
gibsone, you might be interested in my reply above regarding the ratings agencies.
I say in behalf of all OWS, we want to sleep at park inside a warm tent, having hot chocolate and that's all
peoples park in berkeley is good for that
Well, now your talking freedom of religion :) Peace
Wanted! End corporate person-hood. Support the Human Worth Amendment! Learn more at: http://occupywallst.org/forum/human-worth-amendment/
I agree with the representation. I feel that lobbyist dollars are fueling policy making, campaigns, and leaving little to those of us that vote. I feel like Wall Street needs to get its affairs out of Congressional decisions. It's one thing to say hey we are a large corporation and we benefit from points AB&C. But to alter policies with money is unfair, because the rest of us do not have that buying power. We vote so we can have someone represent us.
High paying careers, for the two most highly educated and/ or skilled generations in the history of the United States.
Get the money out of politics!
http://occupywallst.org/forum/call-to-action-get-the-money-out-of-politics/
Fairness returned.
I as an individual want;
a complete reworking of the systems we use for social organisation,
The political system, no politicians, a system of direct voting on issues. gets money out and gets egos out. makes the will of the people public information to all.
a complete reworking of our system of money. money based on value not debt. (the debt economy is flawed in design,. too many casino/pyramid scam type structures in that system,. that will always get us to this place,. where 1/5th of americans own more than the other 4/5ths combined!
I've been pushing a fairly moderate platform for some time now, and this is what I've come up with:
Overall vision for public policy: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=184&sid=14714f47e52adefcaf7bf958a701551b
Rationale for Section III: http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23
Possible project idea for Section VI: http://occupywallst.org/forum/could-high-speed-rail-be-the-answer/#comment-197932
Ideas for actual legislation for Sections VII and VII: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gytiI1qwPDpnLQ8cRmNXoJFmiy4ob3n6yjqfBHpBH8M/edit?hl=en_US
Possible strategy to get parts of this thing through: http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-want-change-thats-great-now-how-do-we-implement/#comment-205283
Sorry for the links, but I haven't had time to draft this into a single document. In our defense, the occupation is necessary to draw attention to our cause and to pull together a wide base of people willing to work with us. However, most of the real potential for change, like it or not, is on Capitol Hill and Pennsylvania Avenue. If we miss out on the chance afforded us by the 2012 elections, we're all fools.
The other thing to consider is that we look a lot more obnoxious and disorganized than we are. That's because we haven't been able to deal with the few trolls and kooks who show up at these things, and those goddamn drummers are making the Wall Street location look like a bunch of assholes and the movement in general look like it can't manage its own people. Clean that up and it would probably get a lot easier to get people to support us.
If that's all you've heard or read - then you haven't been listening or reading.
The number one demand is political reform. Get money out of politics. Until the political system is no longer auctioned to corporations and the wealthy elite - there can be no other honest discussion between the people of this country and the government.
The number one "b" demand is removal of corporate personhood.
I'm very upset about how the police in large numbers have been treating the Occupy Wall Street movement. But we need to keep in mind that, while they so often do not treat us as such or see themselves as such, they are part of us; they are members of the 99%. And they're not going to be as enthusiastic about attacking us or stealing our space if we start putting a lot more emphasis on protests and stuff like that that are more focused on increasing police wages and their benefits and such, because remember: The Republicans (and embarrassingly even some Democrats) voted not to create more police jobs. The police are under attack by the government almost as much as we are. So lets show them through our protests that we are on their side. Who agrees?
I want this:
Here's how we can easily Reform Wall Street: Take away their powers "Once Again." And the best way to get this done is a Million People March to Capitol Hill!
For example, "We are here Congress because we want you to REINSTATE the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 http://www.investopedia.com/articles/03/071603.asp#axzz1aPEc3wX which was created to help save our country from the Great Depression by preventing investment companies, banks, and insurance companies from merging and becoming large brokerage firms; instead of just being Banks and Insurance companies -- Congress why can't you learn a history lesson from 1929? The current system doesn't work, except for the 1%, once again. Btw, why did most of you vote for the major repeal of G-S Act in 1999? Shattering The Glass-Steagall Act: http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/09/19/shattering-the-glass-steagall-act (2nd story here)
Think about where we are now, it all started in 1999 with lawmakers like Senator Phil Gramm who helped create legal gambling casinos for our banks: CNN's The Ten Most Responsible for Economy Collapse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKQOxr2wBZQ&feature=related
Furthermore Congress, we also want you to CHANGE the Commodities Future Modernization Act of 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000 BACK to where it was before 2000, which since has deregulated energy markets and consequently allowed for such scams as The Enron Loophole; whereas in the early 2000's Enron Corp. was charging 250 bucks plus for a kilowatt hour...They all when to jail for this. But, the Enron loophole is still not closed, for example, allowing speculators to resell barrels of oil over and over again before it reaches the gas station owner. It's basically legal gambling at our expense. What were those lawmakers thinking then? What are you thinking now? Either do the right thing, or you're part of the 1%."
So why are oil prices high? The Enron Loophole. Former Head of U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission Michael Greenberger speaks to Congress on the high price of oil--and he's not happy about energy deregulations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbdtTGYQBMU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNp0y0SjOkY&feature=related
Rolling Stones Reporter Matt Taibbi: Truth about Goldman Sachs--how they have cornered the markets--basically, The Enron Loophole and the shattering of Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waL5UxScgUw
Let's get focused and bring back The Glass-Steagall Act of 1933, they got it right 1933, we don't need to REINVENT the wheel because bringing this Act back will help create an even playing field once again....and let's finally Close the Enron Loophole, which allowed Enron to charge what they wanted for energy; they went to jail for this; but no one closed the loophole, why? Re-election Monies from the big brokerage firms and oil companies! The writing is on the wall.
Let's get organized and reinstate these critical financial reforms with a Million People March to Capitol Hill!
Considering we need a strong central focus, maybe call it: "The Million People March to Capital Hill to Reinstate The Glass-Steagall Act and to Finally Close The Enron Loophole"
Here are the demands that have been listed in recent survey results.
Full survey can be found here http://owssurvey.org
Here are some deliberate demands.
1) Publicly financed elections - no compromise!
2) Single payer health care - no compromise!
3) A tax code that promotes jobs here in America - no compromise!
4) Free (over the internet) education for any who seek it - no compromise!
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it!
who is paying for all of that?
oh right lets take it from people who worked for it and give it to the ones who dropped out of school.
Listen, I paid for the Internet, the highways, the military, safe navigation of our nation's waters, scads of government research that was turned into profitable technologies. I got no payback, but it's ok. Now these freeloaders who used all the stuff I paid for want to pretend they made it on their own and don't want to give back.
Suppose these wonderful, hard working, self-made men were born and lived in Afghanistan, never to share in the largesse of the American people. Not only would they not be affluent, the chances are good they would probably have had their right hands cut off.
The whole second line of your post, which gets an idea across, is nonetheless absurd.
we all paid for it. you, me, an the billionaires. we all had a shot to run with what america has given us. the ceo of starbucks was born in the projects.
Yup. We do things together. So my comments still stand.
While I was in the military some limp-wristed rich kid was staying home and while my life was on the line, he was freeloading. George W. Bush comes to mind...
We did not all pay for "it." Some gave all, some gave none.
"I had other priorities at the time." Dick Cheney.
BTW I served with some guys that didn't finish high school. Bullets don't discriminate.
I'll will point out that the Arab spring had demands, but the public must do something not seen for two generations: set the social and political agenda. Rabid corporate concerns replaced real dialog. This has to end.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc3sKwwAaCU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
End finance as it exists. Take the time to watch and do so with the sequel, then think about what it is saying.
Money as debt is no good for the world.
BERNANKE is a good guy, he is just playing the cards he was dealt.
Free stuff
We want our government to prioritize: Healthcare before Warfare, People before Profits.
We want the end the influence of money in our political system.
We want those who benefit most from our economic system to pay their share to make sure everyone has a the basic necessities in life.
We want to make sure that international trade agreements put the true interests of our citizens before the interests of corporate shareholders.
Is that too much to ask?
Seems more like Occupy Washington DC rather than Occupy Wall Street. I think we can all agree that the top 1% are very rich and they probably can just stop working and retire. Why don't the very rich close down their companies, fire everyone, and just move to an island out in the pacific and let us all figure things out? Let's see whether we will be better off then than now.
Good job!
gibsone76m you are taking far to narrow view point on what OWS is about. What this movement is about is remvoing money from politics and stopping the political corruption that it is breeding. The truth is there is no simple way of doing that. Due to the fact that is a very, very, large and complex problem. A lot of the demands people are making within the movement are simply ways to treat the symptoms created by the underlying problem. Its like having a cold. You have a runny nose, a fever and coughing fits, all of those are symptoms of a cold. They are all brought on by the fact that you have a cold.
Due to the fact that the symptoms of corruption within our government have spread to every corner of the government and the problem is grown so large and complex, we simply can not remove the corruption and let that be it. We have to treat the symptoms and ensure that measures are in place to prevent our government to be corrupted once more. To do anything less would leave us vulnerable to the infection of corruption.
Given the fact that this problem is very large, complex and its symptoms are many we can not simply hand you a list of issues and ways to fix them. Simply due to the fact that if we did that list would easily dwarf any high school or collage textbook. It might even give the novel War and Peace a run for its money.
I want the government to end all subsidies to businesses that make a profit. I want the government to abolish and outlaw all corporate, banking, business, and citizen tax loopholes. I want a new tax code. I want relief for middle class families through 401K reform. I want unemployment eliminated and a progressive nationwide job development program in its stead. I want welfare reform. I want anti-corruption task teams in all forms of markets, businesses and government systems. I want the government to stop insuring corporate and banking system failures. I want an audit on the fed and the transparency to become public. I want better management of all government agencies. I want maximum terms for all Senators and Congressmen to be limited to two 3 year terms. I want Senators and Congressmen to be limited to collecting retirement entitlements at the age of 59. I want reduced retirement entitlements to Senators and Congressmen for only serving two terms. I want real feasible debt reduction objectives. I don’t want to see people going to jail for not paying on student loans while being unemployed. I want Glass Steagall reinstated. I want immigrants who work hard in this country and for this country to get their citizenship. I want fair play on free trade. I want whistleblowers that are civil service to actually have protection. I want foreign dignitaries to go to jail or pay their fines for breaking the laws of this country. I want to see oil and coal energy almost entirely eliminated in the name of stopping pollution. ETC, ETC I want some damn Nachos
what about subsidies to cancer research companies that are trying to make a profit?
The answer is trying to make a profit. Research in the name of bettering life is commendable. If they made 100 million or even 100 billion in profit then I would no longer say they are in the research stage.
what if they are only doing it for the profit, and it saves millions of lives, and as soon as gov says they cant make as much of a profit they close up shop and people die?
Initially you said if they were not making a profit. I would then agree to a subsidy. If they are making a healthy profit they are not going to closse up shop to stop making a profit. In fact their cure could turn people into zombies as a side affect that would later land them into a class action lawsuit.
R&D and start up costs are huge in pharmaceuticals...thats why they often require subsidy in early stages. Look up what an "orphan drug" is.
by the way your sentence is extremely confusing I don't follow the logic.
That's true. I see your point. However once that company becomes profitable I do not feel they are entitled to subsidies. They simply will not close their business if they are making a profit. They can also start a program for charitable contributions if they want to keep getting money to support R&D.
You do not understand how subsidies work, most aid in breaking down barriers to entry. Please read up on taxes/subsidies before you post.
Actually I now a lot about subsidies. I used to be a farmer.
Then you would know that they are put in place to prevent famine when crop prices are too low for farming to be profitable. Show me a subsidy that has been put in place that has inflated profit for profits sake and I will concede the argument.
Let's put it another way. A subvention can artificially influence the markets in an ability to create or diminish valuations. Taxpayers are on the hook for companies that make profits that have no need for the subsidy because they are self reliant and profitable but still receive a subsidy. In respect if a business model needs to receive a subsidy to become self reliant and profitable so be it. There are multiple classes of subsidies. If you as a taxpayer has no problem paying for subsidies to entities that receive them that have no need for them then so be it.
Exxon Pfiser BP Merlin Boeing Lockheed KAI Corporate Farm Enterprizes Should I continue.
All corporations that you use
http://www.themultitude.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=386&p=2098#p2098
All i have to say is Dane Clark "Over It" is the song of these times. Everyone should go to youtube and watch it. GREAT SONG by a GREAT ARTIST
All i have to say is Dane Clark "Over It" is the song of these times. Everyone should go to youtube and watch it. GREAT SONG by a GREAT ARTIST
End corporate person-hood. Support the Human Worth Amendment. To learn more, go to http://occupywallst.org/forum/human-worth-amendment/
We should start with a few realistic demands. And these call for good slogans. Use these: Tobin Tax Now ! Tobin Tax Now ! Tobin Tax Now !
Split the banks! Split the Banks ! Split the Banks !
Realistic demands call for good slogans. Use these: Tobin Tax Now ! Tobin Tax Now ! Tobin Tax Now ! Split the banks! Split the Banks ! Split the Banks !
Corporate executives are not doing anything wrong. Politicians, who we elect, have written rules favorable to the wealthiest American. The protests and mobilization needs to be directed at politicians.
The Congressional Reform Act of 2011
Ok you are talking about problems with government, not wall street...nice try though.
And for the record I do agree with these things.
Wall Street and Washington are joined at the hip.
Demand a trial to have these corrupt individuals pay for their crimes. Demand that the public will no longer tolerate these criminals activities to continue that harm American citizens.
Why should we obey the laws when these people think they are above it?
The rich have abused their power in an amazing number of ways, and we want action to reverse each abuse. There's no simple answer because those with power and money have served themselves in so many ways for so long.
See completeconfusion.com for a good start at a list with bibliography documenting the facts.
i want to know where all the money politicians get comes from. we need full disclosure!
How about we turn the tides on the rich. We set up laws for "Corporate Treason To America" Treason is still man/corporate against country and country man. I would be happy with that. Michael
Watch how fast the rich leave this country if that ever happens. Then we will have a real problem
Its time for change. Lets bring it on.
An end to our political system being corrupted by corporate money?
agreed. fair.
OCCUPY FLAGSTAFF/ HUNGER STRIKE! By Jane Q. Public
WHEREAS, God is the Creator of all things including all Human Beings and not one Human Being is better than another, nor is one Human Being more deserving than another to enjoy life to the fullest; and this enjoyment at the expense of the life of another; and,
WHEREAS, God loves diversity and has created all Human Beings different from one another; one being created stronger than another; one more intelligent than another; one more gifted than another, etc; and,
WHEREAS, Human Beings discovered that those who had been created mightier than others used their might to, in a phenomenon called “Survival of the Fittest”, oppress the ones who were poorer, weaker or less powerful and that this was murderous, inhumane, unrighteous and against the will of the Creator who had made us; and,
WHEREAS, Human Beings collaborated together and elected and/or appointed lawyers, judges and rulers in the establishment of a governing body of which the main purpose was to provide protection for the poor, the weak and the powerless from being abused and kept down by the rich, the strong and the powerful so that all Human Beings could enjoy the Gift of Life they had been given by God; and,
WHEREAS, all areas of government of these United States of America, namely, legislative, judicial and executive branches operate solely to make the rich richer, the strong stronger and the empowered more powerful at the expense of the lives of the poor, the weak and the powerless, and in its idolatrous worship of the almighty dollar has completely abandoned its righteous responsibility to protect the poor, the weak and the powerless; and,
WHEREAS, the Lord God who made all creation returned to earth, in human form, over 2000 years ago, our calendar denoting this event with the subscription B.C. and A.D.; and in His teachings told us in Matthew 17:21 of the Holy Bible that this form of intense and insidious demonic possession of God’s creation cannot be removed but by prayer and fasting.
Beginning this day, October 23, 2011, in Flagstaff, Arizona, the County of Coconino, I, Jane Q. Public (fictitious name for obvious reasons) will be starting a HUNGER STRIKE in protest against social injustice and inequality which conditions worsen daily in Flagstaff, the U.S.A. and the world over, due to governmental action in favor of and inaction against corporate greed, until such time as the government of Flagstaff acts to change its position and begins to act in favor of the poor, the weak and the powerless above and beyond the profit margin of the rich, the strong and the powerful. This action, if taken by the government (Legislative, Judicial & Executive branches) of Flagstaff will be clear and convincing evidence that the cleansing of the insidious, idolatrous, demonic possession of our nation called “Money Worship” has begun.
Dated: October 23, 2011
Signed: Jane Q. Public (name fictitious/Person real)
OCCUPY FLAGSTAFF/ HUNGER STRIKE! By Jane Q. Public
WHEREAS, God is the Creator of all things including all Human Beings and not one Human Being is better than another, nor is one Human Being more deserving than another to enjoy life to the fullest; and this enjoyment at the expense of the life of another; and,
WHEREAS, God loves diversity and has created all Human Beings different from one another; one being created stronger than another; one more intelligent than another; one more gifted than another, etc; and,
WHEREAS, Human Beings discovered that those who had been created mightier than others used their might to, in a phenomenon called “Survival of the Fittest”, oppress the ones who were poorer, weaker or less powerful and that this was murderous, inhumane, unrighteous and against the will of the Creator who had made us; and,
WHEREAS, Human Beings collaborated together and elected and/or appointed lawyers, judges and rulers in the establishment of a governing body of which the main purpose was to provide protection for the poor, the weak and the powerless from being abused and kept down by the rich, the strong and the powerful so that all Human Beings could enjoy the Gift of Life they had been given by God; and,
WHEREAS, all areas of government of these United States of America, namely, legislative, judicial and executive branches operate solely to make the rich richer, the strong stronger and the empowered more powerful at the expense of the lives of the poor, the weak and the powerless, and in its idolatrous worship of the almighty dollar has completely abandoned its righteous responsibility to protect the poor, the weak and the powerless; and,
WHEREAS, the Lord God who made all creation returned to earth, in human form, over 2000 years ago, our calendar denoting this event with the subscription B.C. and A.D.; and in His teachings told us in Matthew 17:21 of the Holy Bible that this form of intense and insidious demonic possession of God’s creation cannot be removed but by prayer and fasting.
Beginning this day, October 23, 2011, in Flagstaff, Arizona, the County of Coconino, I, Jane Q. Public (fictitious name for obvious reasons) will be starting a HUNGER STRIKE in protest against social injustice and inequality which conditions worsen daily in Flagstaff, the U.S.A. and the world over, due to governmental action in favor of and inaction against corporate greed, until such time as the government of Flagstaff acts to change its position and begins to act in favor of the poor, the weak and the powerless above and beyond the profit margin of the rich, the strong and the powerful. This action, if taken by the government (Legislative, Judicial & Executive branches) of Flagstaff will be clear and convincing evidence that the cleansing of the insidious, idolatrous, demonic possession of our nation called “Money Worship” has begun.
Dated: October 23, 2011
Signed: Jane Q. Public (name fictitious/Person real)
I was not asking for a list of ideals.
Does anyone know what the actual occupy demands are (and the exact website where you found them) or where the poll is for us to vote on them? I can't find either and it's frustrating thanks. I'm not sure how to get notified when someone responds to this, so you can email me at jlsimage@gmail.com. Please do! Thank you
Go to the "news" button at top of page. Scroll to the earlier days of the movement. You can find the original statement put up by the early occupy-ers. I saw it again the other day and felt re-inspired. I dont know why they don't periodically re-post for newbies and nay-sayers.
Thanks. I'll check it out. Is it true that OWS is going to hold a vote to decide on someone to represent us?
Never heard that.
oh. If we are going to vote on a representative, do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? What are your thoughts?
There arnt any, really, there's a list but its a crapshoot IMO
see you http://verdadesymentirasoficiales.blogspot.com/2011/10/c-p-i-t-l-i-s-m-o-enemigo-publico-siii.html España os mira porque el corazón de la bestia lo tenéis ahí
Es un systema mundial...el consumo es global tambien
Put an end to bipartisan politics altogether. No more liberal leftist democrats vs conservitive right wing republicans. A nation divided in this manor is clearly not a union. There are not only two views, their are millions of views. We are stuck in an archaic format, given a choice between a man in a red tie or a man in a blue tie and in the end nothing ever changes and very little gets done because congress is split down the middle with equal amounts of hate and intollerance on both sides.
We are living in a technological society yet technology is going underused by our leadership. Ideas like Gov2.0 or eDemocracy need to be embraced so that rather than choosing the lesser of two evils we can voice our opinions in an open forum, have direct contact with our public officials, and state our concerns, criticisms, and ideas publicly for all to see.
The current form of government we are stuck into was very good for an isolated people. In the past we needed to have a representative who could bring our concerns to a centralized location where they could be discussed and voted on by delagates from other states to find consensus. But we are no longer as isolated as we once were. Communication is instantaneous in this day and age and we no longer need to have an individual from our district ride horseback to washington to share our concerns because we can do this ourselves.
We need to completely overhall the design of our democracy and move closer to having a pure democracy that is truly by the people and not by the party.
Whew! I am over here in tiny Occupy Taos, New Mexico. Heard a list of demands somewhere which made my head spin. I am GLAD it was not from the assembly. FIRST we need to keep BEING PRESENT and SEEING, SAYING WHAT IS WRONG and HARMFUL. THIS action GATHERS IN those that are suffering or are empathetic with the suffering. (And as USA citizens, we are all complicit with the crimes of our government) There is an old process called DAVS. Description (describe what is wrong) Analysis (how does it function and impact) VISION, and STRATEGY (how to get to the VISION. If we make small demands now, like what I heard (such as a minimum wage of $20) WE CANNOT GROW the REVOLUTION. WE STAND WITH YOU!
Here's my list: OWS should commit to principles of nonviolent resistance - otherwise the movement will likely fail. OWS should demand a constitutional amendment to get money out of political campaigns. (http://www.getmoneyout.com) Then Government will be of the people - at least those who participate.
Do the minimum wages really feed a family? is there a right of labour? I really would miss it, if my wages would be so small not affording holidays or fearing insecureness in case of illness or old age. (hous a day five days a week should ear a liveable living not only for bankers.
so what...you're saying we should all make the same thing?
I think the right of well paid jobs doesn't only arise from qualification - or do you want to leave all non qualified persons to starvation - I just think everyone who works full time shouldn't fear poverty not here not in indonesia nor in china or bangladesh. Any work should at least pay a kind of minimum wage which saves you and your family. If you are better skilled or if you work harder than the rest you will get more - according to their harder work.
ummmm...don't we have a minimum wage?
Maybe that everyone who seeks a job gets one - Right of labor and if you have a job it should be paid well - here and everywhere, everyone who works 8 hours a day five days a week (plus lets say 25 days vacancies) should be able to live a descent living, which means, feed the family, be able to participate in the life of his community/city culture etc. , enjoy holidays/trips to other countries etc./ and should be enshoured not to fear poverty in the case of illness or old age. I don't think that that to much. Hey 1% what do you do with all money /income you can't eat or spend, want to build pyramids?
So If I worked harder in school than you, why should we get jobs that are just as god/well paying?
There is no reasons to articulate a single demand or to narrow the focus of the movement.
Now, what would get me out of the protestors camp? I am a highly educated MBA and I want to get my career going. How about high paying careers for highly educated Americans, like me? I keep hearing Wall Street supporters suggest that they don't know what to invest in. It is understandable. Most of them are not trained for the role of an MBA. In point of fact, most MBAs are incorrectly utilized in Corporations, today. There is an expectation, today, in the USA, that an MBA is a glorified secretary. This is a big mistake. MBAs are big picture, see the forest for the trees types; fit for strategic planning positrons, not secretarial positions.
I can't blame an I-Banker for not knowing the job of an MBA, but I can blame Corporate America for trying to turn MBAs into office assistants and secretaries into managers. China and India have tremendous demand for MBAs, right now, because they recognize the value of an MBA. Corporate America is asking the, "How," crowd to come up with the, "What," and the, "How," crowd has no idea of what the, "What," should be, to get our economy going. MBAs are useful in Strategic planning, at the, "What," level, where as CPAs, I-Bankers and financial analysts are useful at the, "How," level; the tactical level. If the USA is going to come up with new commercial enterprises, the USA is going to have to stop shoving their strategic thinkers in to low level, "How," jobs and put them in midlevel, "What," jobs.
MJ, I have a Ph.D. in a social sciences branch that is, frankly, seemingly "useless" in the real world. I loved my course of study but when it came time to get a job, to pay the rent while exploring jobs in my field, I went to a temp agency. I had a Ph.D. but NO SKILLS that anyone needed! Turns out my skills did match a job in academic administration. I never thought I'd wind up there, but now I've crafted a career and 12 years later, I'm very happy with what I do to earn my keep. I could cry about how I didn't get to work "in my field" but instead I've re-invented myself a little. In my current job, I've totally transcended the job description by hard work, asserting my brain and sweat, and it's paying off. Just my experience... (And, I don't for a minute think I've wasted my education -- the whole point of education is not getting a job -- it's getting educated…at least in the original definition of college….)
Thank you for your advice. Simply put, this is a different age. I was watching a video of a gentleman discussing creativity. He pointed out that our Nation faces the problem of teaching children the skills they will need for the jobs of the future. What do you teach, when you do not know what skills will be needed tomorrow? You teach how to train for skills development. You train children to adapt to new and unforeseeable skills, as best you can, using computer simulation. Being good at training is a concrete skill that is going to be needed of most future workers.
Since we don't know what they will have to do, atm, there is no sense on betting the farm on pure math and science. How many pure mathematicians do I need? Can I not create a macro to eliminate the need for a calculation? How many physics majors does it take to screw in the light bulb of a Quantum Teleportation device? I need workers capable of effectively training and adapting. You and your Social Sciences degree would have fit perfectly, under my proposed system. [grin]
Hey MBA!
I know that you are frustrated. Our culture has always stressed the benefits of "higher education". Everyone (generalizing) says that if you get a college education, then you will be able to find a good advanced job. That's Bull Crap in America today. But, it is not due to a lack of foresight on the part of US corporations.
What you are witnessing are two things. The economics of "supply and demand", and a change in how corporations choose management.
Their has been an increase in the supply of MBAs, and a reduction in the demand. You may be wondering why a reduction in demand. This is where it's going to hurt. Don't take it personally.
The reduction in demand has been caused by entrepreneurs (like myself) that don't value MBAs as much as "qualifications". Entrepreneurs value "bootstrap experience" over "formal education". It's too long of a subject to properly discuss in this forum.
My advice to you is to get your hands dirty. Start at the bottom. Believe me when I tell you.....with some hard work....you will advance quickly. When you start at the bottom....your MBA status will become a huge advantage over the next guy in line to advance. Entrepreneurs highly value MBAs with "bootstrap experience". I know I do.
Good Luck!
You really don't have much to do with the unemployemnt or employment of MBAs, as a small business owner. Corporate America is just reducing the existing US workforce and not creating new commerical enterprises or creating enough jobs for professional graduates, in the USA. Please get your facts straight, before you make silly comments. Small business owners are good generators of jobs for high school kids and high school grads, but you will never be a big draw for professionals seeking full time positions, sorry. No MBA is begging you for a job. No MBA is going to leave India and move to the USA to work for you.
Well....you have certainly exposed one of the reasons why you are not doing well in business. You have passed judgment on someone that you have never met. I guess there are some things that they don't teach you in college.
It is obvious that you will need more time learning the hard way before you gain enough wisdom to make it in the business world.
FYI......I earn in the 7 (yes...that's SEVEN) figures in income.
I was just trying to give you a little friendly advice from a businessman who knows how to run a successful business.
I will not waste any more of my time.
Wow try not to hurt your arm while patting yourself on the back...just because you have an MBA doesn't make you a great prospect for any company.
The fact that I am an MBA doesn't demonstrate that I am not a great prospect either.
righ so basically the fact that you have an mba says nothing about your qualifications, so get off your "i am a highly educated and i should have the best job ever" high horse. you'll get a good job when you earn it.
Your conclusion is based on faulty logic. An MBA has mastery of a lot of useful information. MBAs go though a great deal of training, including, but not limited to strategic planning. Strategic planning skills are very useful, if you want to get to the,"What," of things in business; the ,"What," we need to do to create high paying careers, the "What," we need to do to create new commercial enterprise development, the "What," we need to grow our population? The USA needs more strategic minded, "What," thinkers, because we already have enough, "How," guys and gals, to get what we already do done.
We don't need to get to the, "How," of what we are already doing. Do you see that? How do we do business in the USA? We harness efficiencies and we grow foreign markets. This is, "How," we do business in the USA. That is not, "What," we need to do to create jobs. That is not, "What we need to attract the World to our shores. That is not "What," we need to optimize shareholder value, off of activities performed within the USA. [smile] MBAs will be very useful in answering the, "What," questions. Just like we were useful in making the USA a Super Power, in the first place or did you forget that it was MBA dominated companies that created high paying careers and made this country unique? Even wonder why China has a big demand for MBAs now? [ grin] How many high paying US jobs have been created, since Corporate America put the, "How," crowd in charge? [yawn]
Look at Florida job link for opportunities if you are serious. Many management jobs available. If you don't want to move to Florida, check the state boards in a place where you would be willing to live...that's what I do.
No kidding...the best part about getting an MBA is the networking. You do hone your skills as a professional, but simply going through the program does not mean you are anything special. Obama went to Harvard Law school, does that make him the best presidential candidate ever? NO.
Please clarify why you are bringing up the fact that you have an MBA. There are plenty of people who are smarter than you who didn't even finish college.
Did you read my last post? Now with regard to there being smarter people...I can create a Universal translator, using standard Microsoft office software and two I phones, I can re-imagine how we connect job seekers and employers, using computer simulation. I can revolutionize how we use passive search engines to connect customers, business owners and even kids looking for a date. I can tell you that the cure for HIV is going to most likely be a nano- drone artificial immune system. I can revolutionize how cars are maintained, using fully automated flexible manufacturing. I can even explain how we can use flexible manufacturing to start phasing out Federal Personal Income Tax.
I am actually smarter than my education makes me seem, if anything. I am not a book worm, not by a long shot. Book learning is actually the worst way to train me, according to my personality type. I do have a formidable intellect, with regard to creativity, though. I need a connection. My intellect will hold up just fine against the office. I am not a parasite.
So go apply for a job or something. If you are as valuable as you say you will get hired, trust me. And don't let unemployment stats tell you different.
But judging by your absurd arrogance I would guess that this may not be the case.
Absurd arrogance is nearly bankrupting half of Western Europe, seeking tax payer bail outs and feeling that you are entitled to make money off of betting against toxic investments, packaged and sold to your innocent investors; that is absurdly arrogant. Introducing a Universal translator app into iphones, so recent immigrants will be able to work together, in the USA, without speaking the same language, is just freaking cool, sorry.
Sorry if I don't hang my head in shame, because I have lots of good ideas and I know it. I am not absurdly arrogant because I know that Wall Street has nothing for two generations of highly educated Americans, but more mass unemployment , taxpayer bailouts and acts of fraud up their sleeves....Hey, I am not the guy inspiring a Global protest movement. That honor belongs to the cash money heroes of Wall Street. [grin]
dude i don't know what you're getting at. go send out applications or invent something i don't know what to tell you
You don't know, "What," to tell me. That was my point, from the start. [smile] Thank you for your input and the best of luck and fortune to you. MJ
what is your issue? that you don't have a job?
I am so sick of hearing "Oh, we don't know what we want yet because the movement is still in its early stages." ...please, it has been a month already.
a months isn't a long time for a movement at all some go on for years
Years living in Zucotti Park…yikes! Time to at least take this slumber party indoors and at the keyboards, with street action (marches, spectacles) here and there. No?
Bloomberg means flower town
These idiots do thinks that there is someone here to answer bogus question. Come on people stop asking them!
No one knows what they want and every knows what they want. This is a movement without sides or objectives. There are a lot of generalities out there such as more affordable education and just a more fair system. Many people don't really even know what it is they want. Perhaps because the system we have built just really does not work for everyone and people have came to realization that perhaps there is more to life than just work and consumption above what we need. http://www.2012survivability.com/2012-news/ows-what-does-occupy-wall-street-have-to-do-with-lyndy-prophesies-2012/
A lot of people argue that occupywallst does not have a goal. What about the Arabs who protested during the Arab spring, what was their goal? It wasn't clearly defined, but they knew they had had enough. We do too. Instead of living under the dictatorship of one man, we live under the dictatorship of dollars, corporations, the 1%.
Their goal was simple and clearly defined, and it sounded something like this..."We are no longer living under a dictatorship, you must step down"
Yes, but our basic goal is also clearly defined: we're fed up with being screwed financially by the top 1%. The further steps, the solutions will be harder to establish, just as in Arab countries, the post revolution is dividing people.
IMHO we can have an impact if we focus on the issues we can all (most) agree on which are 1) breaking the corporate stranglehold on politics, 2) REAL reform of the financial system including a solution for the mortgage crisis and ending TBTF 3) Investigation and prosecution of fraud that caused the crisis
we can discuss details later but we need to narrow the focus now and organize actions around these core issues, or we arew in serious peril of becoming irrelevant NOTE THE RECENT DROP IN THE VIEWER COUNT
IMHO we can have an impact if we focus on the issues we can all (most) agree on which are 1) breaking the corporate stranglehold on politics, 2) REAL reform of the financial system including a solution for the mortgage crisis and ending TBTF 3) Investigation and prosecution of fraud that caused the crisis
we can discuss details later but we need to narrow the focus now and organize actions around these core issues, or we arew in serious peril of becoming irrelevant NOTE THE RECENT DROP IN THE VIEWER COUNT
the regulation agencies and washington are to blame...go occupy DC
Let us start with 2nd Bill of Rights: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_bill_of_rights
Washington is responsible for this, not wall street...the protest is misguided
omg, you're serious, you really don't get it? Read this: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/23/1028206/-Occupy-Wall-Street-is-not-difficult-to%C2%A0understand?via=blog_1
When protesters tape dollar bills over their mouths, what's not to understand? Signs and placards read: Bring Back Glass–Steagall Act, Reform Wall Street, Make the 1% Pay Their Share, Get Money Out Of Politics. And you don't get it?
I think at this stage it's about raising awareness that there is in fact a problem. Think about it - 2 months ago, none of this was on the radar. Nobody was talking about it. The conversation has just started.
the more important question, I think is; Do you see any problems? Do you have any ideas? What are your demands?
We really need to move beyond the thinking that a couple hundred people in a park are going to figure all this out for us. It's going to take everybody. That is the message here. That's the Demand - Pay attention and participate in the discussion.
I disagree. I am sure people directly affected by lack of work, long hours, crime have been talking across their kitchen tables. Barbara Ehrenreich has been raising the point of class inequity for decades. Juliet Schor has been advocating less consumption for years. Rap artists have been shouting about this stuff for years, too. Glengarry Glen Ross and Wall Street raised the issue of workplace greed. This conversation has already been taking place in academic and popular culture forums -- IT IS NOTHING NEW. It is really time to bring at least one tangible "demand" to the fore.
I understand and sort of agree with you. But until a month ago everybody probably felt like the conversation didn't go much further than the kitchen table. Not only that but what are the chances that a solution was being talked about around the table? Buckminster Fuller was pointing out the error of our ways as early as what the 40's - 50's? I'm not saying that it's new, I'm saying that people being so fed up with it that they are taking to the streets is new.
I don't hear any rap with answers, if you know of any, now is the time to bump that. This movement needs critical mass. Issuing a single demand without some forethought we just add a crux to divide people.
The media will get a hold of it, urge people to pick a side then divide and conquer. We will be no closer to the peace, comfort and security we seek.
Even a statement like; Get the money out of politics, if realized would only be a one step and doesn't do much to address the centralization of wealth.
You seem to have been following this for quite some time; What would be your demand?
Campaign reform and ELECTION reform. Using the existing election structure, I'd make changes: 1) No campaign ads allowed, anywhere, period. That would make campaign money unnecessary. 2) Make donations to candidates by people or groups illegal, just to ensure #1. 3) Allow equal space/time to candidates in newspapers, an official candidate blog, YouTube series, television, radio -- we'd have to figure out what works best and how to execute this -- for them to share "white papers" on platform issues of importance to them. An overall "elect me!" statement can be included, too. No name-calling, elaborate campaign ads, just the facts and what you'll do for our country. 4) A series of debates at some point in the elections that are televised, online, whatever -- where people can see a candidate's personality, demeanor, charisma, whatever -- get a feel for "who they are." But largely we'd be voting on the ISSUES and what a candidate would do or not do…
I'd also scrap the whole NH and Iowa decide the fate of our nation deal. What's with that? Primaries should be held on the same day across the nation… no state gets a leg up and the right to sway the election. Internet voting would be amazing, but maybe problematic, still.
AND…maybe we'd decide to allow some in person "campaigning" but only after everyone's white papers were distributed. And this period of "on the ground" campaigning would be limited to say a few months. And the President would need to build this in to his/her term and we'd all accept the incumbent would be doing this while the VP fills in...
Great ideas. Think bigger.
Other big picture "musts" for me for substantive positive change: greatly reducing the outsourcing mania. Why is Apple being manufactured ANYWHERE but the US? Why is the new electric car being manufactured in Finland? Why do I want to do cartwheels when I see any product with "Made in the USA" printed on it? The gov't needs to pass laws that result in huge dis-incentives for US companies to go abroad, and huge support for companies that keep it local.
On that note, my third prong of reform is GO LOCAL. Local food production/consumption -- greenmarkets, urban gardens, eating to season. Shopping local. Human powered transportation instead of fuel-powered transportation. In short, a more human-scale lifestyle.
Go local!!
Thing is, SLOWLY but surely, things ARE changing in some aspects of our lives. A decade ago you'd have a hard time finding organic and locally sourced this or that in a supermarket chain. Now, even small groceries and delis stock a few "organic" items, and restaurants are serving up grass-fed animals. People across the country are increasingly aware -- and in support of -- the many pros of a strong local production system. Folks are exploring and mastering Internet based citizen journalism -- blogs, tweets, even paper zines -- all are going strong. I guess OWS doesn't floor me as much as the amazing local changes I've been seeing all along. Of course, I'm in Brooklyn -- a hotspot of local business and activism….but why not apply this model elsewhere? Even a local chocolate maker is now using WIND POWERED SHIPS to transport his cocoa beans. How inspiring is that?
WAL MART even devotes shelf space to organic stuff. The tide IS turning.
Thinking big - but also thinking specifics -- "how does all this look? how will it really materialize?" :)
start at the politicians... the whole system is defunct. Tax payer regulated (vote) for politician pay increases. remove the politician retirement plan (golden Fleece retirement) and unless they have a retirement fund for themselves, must retire to the same system as the rest of America. fix the welfare system to provide aid to people who need it, but set it up so that the household head must work, whether in an office, on a farm, or as menial labor, or for a company that participates in the program in order to obtain affordable help, in order to obtain welfare benefits. these should be among the first changes to be made. the demands of a criminal investigation and debt amnesty should be discussed after these changes are made.
I can feel some truth in there. If we put them in the same boat as us they would be more likely to legislate change. It's important that money and politics be separated.
About the welfare system - What about single mothers? Or Handicapped I'm not really disagreeing with you but what about circumstances where the head of the household is unable to work indefinitely?
I am certain that a single mom could be employed as a day care sitter in order to be able to work for her share of welfare benefits. handicapped would be taken care of by social security disability, once the politicians have had to fix SSI because they have to retire to the very same system. they already take the funding out of our paychecks... they should take the same percentage rate be it 5% 10% or whatever, from everyone including politicians and executives.
I'm beginning to think the change we really need is such a fundamental shift from whats in place now that working within our system might not work at all.
We might just need to scrap it. I'm just not sure if enacting more laws and bureaucracy will help.
I don't feel the system in incapable of being reshaped. It has good bones. Don't forget we've peacefully transferred power across centuries now -- that's impressive. So many energetic, innovative, good people in the U.S. There are fantastic possibilities that we have not explored in full -- rooftop farming, job sharing, solar power, barter for services instead of cash for services. The Internet, still only barely tapped for new ways of doing old things.
Go to the park and dialogue.
Oh please. I went to Zucotti Park and it was pointless. I talked to people, but so what? So a 20-something woman heard my spiel about campaign reform. What's that going to get me (or this country)? The GA? Forget it -- I've been reading the meeting minutes and if that's all that goes on, that's also pointless. I suppose I'm too impatient for this movement.
You did know it took more than a hundred years to end slavery.
Yeah, but at least people were manning underground railroads during its heinous reign. All this talk -- why not tackle campaign reform, already? That's a topic ripe for action. Or tackle how OWS will respond in the coming election. Something tangible while we build utopias.
People know next to nothing about progressive history. It's going to take a while.
http://www.plainsite.org
they want there stolen equity back, They don't want to be governed with mafia methods. (Saving there own not the people - sample bailout)
their* stolen equity. SO AGAIN, this is how the OWSers FEEL, i get it...what is a solution?
a small part of the answer, I feel would help... only the people can vote for politician salary increase, politicians must retire to the same retirement system as us, unless they are able to set up their own retirement plan. take the corporate funding out of campaigning. no bailouts for big corporations. set a law that corporations must pay overseas help the same rates and benefits that we would demand for the same job here in the states, thus making overseas help the same cost as here, thereby keeping the jobs local. that would be just a start...
I don't know how they feel. Since there is a pile of issues.
A solution would be a investigation into the Real Estate bubble, the bailout and its injustice.
That would be a start. Followed by a class action lawsuit.
And paying elections on equal shares so the smartest guy wins not the most corrupt.
Im going to put this out there...government and the regulation agencies are to blame. Bankers, while they might have been greedy, immoral, whatever, were really just doing their jobs as best as they could. There will always be greedy people in the world, but occupying wall street is misguided.
I have to agree with you. The problems originate in Washington. The solution, if there is a political solution, also in Washington. That said I think the venue of the protest isn't that important. I think Washington is as aware of NYC as the are of DC.
I just think the protest is generally misguided, and the name "OWS" is one example of that.
The government and regulation agencies are controlled by the banks and big business. If all the problems originate in Washington why is this movement global?
Why the hell would people across the world take to the streets to protest our government and regulatory agencies?
Our system is so corrupt it would probably be more efficient to start from scratch. Band-aids are not going to fix this. We are talking critical condition. but if you really feel that way then maybe you and notaneoliberal should get together and start ODC. Ya'know? Bring the focus to where it should be.
Greed is ok - but greed turned into fraud. The moment Citibank merged with a insurance company - the doors to fraud where opened in a massive way.
Wall Street Economists & banks sold mortgages that where dead on arrival.( Violating Consumer protection laws.) They insured this loans (practically the minute before failing with there own insurance brokers). AIG back insured the loans (business) without being investigated.
The following is history there where more defaults then payments.
NOT ONE PERON HAD TO GO TO COURT FOR THIS REASONS.
If there is no justice then there is no government!
AIG was saved while homeowners have to pay double! Loosing there savings was the wheel for our economy. How can an economy flourish if there are (I think it was about 25 Trillions) taken out of the peoples pockets?
Every argument that politics uses now comes down to the same issue: pointing fingers to be elected - for the next scam.
Greed is ok?
It's one of the 7 DEADLY sins. I'm not religious but still Deadly sounds pretty fucking not okay.
It is a human behavior. But I agree it is not OK - but we sure have to live with that.
Greed is ok - but greed turned into fraud. The moment Citibank merged with a insurance company - the doors to fraud where opened in a massive way.
Wall Street Economists & banks sold mortgages that where dead on arrival.( Violating Consumer protection laws.) They insured this loans (practically the minute before failing with there own insurance brokers). AIG back insured the loans (business) without being investigated.
The following is history there where more defaults then payments.
NOT ONE PERON HAD TO GO TO COURT FOR THIS REASONS.
If there is no justice then there is no government!
AIG was saved while homeowners have to pay double! Loosing there savings was the wheel for our economy. How can an economy flourish if there are (I think it was about 25 Trillions) taken out of the peoples pockets?
Every argument that politics uses now comes down to the same issue: pointing fingers to be elected - for the next scam.
The problem is with government and the regulation agencies, not bankers. this should be occupy DC not occupy wall street.
Why do you want to protect banks, I mean the top level - the once that give out the policies to give unsecured loans- and securing with insurance fraud (Since they owned them and could do the back insurance with AIG .
Its like putting the one that is giving the kill order in jail, but the actual killer goes free. Of course bailout signers and the non- regulators are guilty they did a mistake in there jobs. (Probably being tobussy talking o lobbyists then doing there actual job.
But it is one think to have the freedom of little regulation, but another to abuse this freedom in a damaging way.
Sample if I break you neighbors fence I must fix it.
Same happened with the bubble, consumer rights where abused, following the planned transaction (Government and cooperate played hand in hand, with the result that every citizen lost 50-100% of there equity) - every single one of them.
Why should they not be liable? And why should the working people and the middle class take that burden (Tax and Price increases) ?
The Politicians(Bailout unjust), CEO (Banks Insurance and Consumer protection law violations) and Wall Street Lawyers (Insurance Fraud) that knew exactly what would happen (They where betting on the breakdown)
Why should we not hold them accountable ? At least it may be worth an investigation! Sample: If toyota's brakes have a failure then they are responsible, they are liable to fix the damage. (not only by replacing the breaks, also the lost values caused by accidents.
Wall-street, main-street, Banks, Lawyers, all worked hand in hand and caused the damage. But Politicians saved them - for good reasons - Bribes they where in it on both sites on the fence.
A last one - if people get there equity back - I bet the economy will work well again, jobs would not be an issue, the deficit will not rise (More business more tax revenue) - we mind run into an inflation but thats wheat we should have had anyway.
Same tired anti-OWS argument... occupying wall street is a symbol of the collusion between wall street and govt.... they know the change comes from legislation in washington... not in having Lloyd Blankfein apologize to the world...
i don't think thats what its about...thats what it SHOULD be about, but its not. This should have started on the streets of washington
It's a product of the mass media and especially the internet... in my opinion OWS is just a group of disenfranchised voters who know deep down in their heart that something is wrong with their country...
I agree that something is wrong with the country...its the white house. Bankers are just doing their jobs, and corporations are reaping the benefits of americans being obsessed with mcdonalds and apple products.
Somehow I doubt the government shoved the idea of an unregulated derivatives market down wall streets throat... I'm not trying to make a cop out for the government... I just believe the blame rests on both entities
government sets the rules, Wall street is not going to argue with something that favors them. Its that simple.
"The voting system works, obama is just weak, he was too radical and his early failures caused any republicans that might have supported him to turn away. now we have a gridlocked government."
That's how I came to my conclusion :)
Yeah i don't like obama, but that wasn't the main point of my argument. Take your straw man to another thread.
I see... so you'd like to use OWS as a platform to oust a democrat that you don't like...
I don't know how you got to that conclusion. My point is that no matter who the President is, they will have to adjust the system regardless of what wall st wants them to do.
And wall street lobbies for the rules to be set...
Big deal so blame the lobbying firms...you cant blame wall street for trying to make the system work to their advantage, its survival of the fittest. Blame gov for allowing it.
The narrative is in your hands... you have the opportunity to pick and choose whose opinion you highlight as "representing OWS"..
when i hear people talk about corporate greed and executive fat cats i get the feeling that washington is not the main focus of the arguement
Gibsone, again you make sense. This is exactly my point too and no one is hearing it. Is this about cute mottos like 'Down with the rich!" or are we finally going to go after the ludicrous lobbying cartels and the campaign follies?
the feelings of this movement are right on...the execution is atrocious
Like I said... you have the opportunity to pick and choose whose opinion you highlight as "representing OWS"
Actually, we don't, Hello…I'm keenly following this movement, and all I'm ever hearing / seeing are people lambasting "the rich." What are the CEOs supposed to do, walk down Wall Street in barrels, throwing money at Zucotti Park? I'm serious. It's getting tiresome and derailing the message, making it look like a temper tantrum by the have nots about the haves.
Money controlling politics is the core issue on which there is the most agreement.
We need to vote away from Wall Street - by refusing to vote for the candidate in any race who got the most money from the 1%. A few politicians lose because of this, and they'll start valuing votes over donations.
Ha, it would only work if it was an individual trying to conceal there intentions as to not have them surmounted I surmise.
In my opinion, the heart of the issue is campaign finance reform. We need to have all political campaigns funded by the taxpayers from a separate fund. An amount would be designated say: 50 million dollars or 25 or whatever is a reasonable amount to actually travel and give speeches, and provide security for the candidates etc. And that NO OTHER MONEY be used, and that any contribution from ANY private donor big or small be made unlawful. AND REMOVE SPECIAL INTEREST LOBBIES from Washington. THEN we can begin to re-center American Democracy around the electoral process and the actual WILL of the people. Right now, politicians tell their "constituents" what they want to hear and make all of the promises they need to make, and then, newly elected (or re-elected) arrive in Washington and are immediately cornered and overwhelmed by all of the special interests that actually funded their campaign and dictate policy, and these politicians no longer connect "doing the will of the people" with "being a successful politician." Campaign financing and the lobbyists who OWN Washington, and every politician on both sides of the so-called “aisle” in their back pockets: THIS is the straw that is stirring this corrupt drink right now. Our leaders no longer need to act in the interests of the people they serve. Moreover, it is actually political suicide for them to do so. THAT, I feel, is a good "starting point" for one of this beautiful and exhilarating movement's central demands. REFORM CAMPAIGN FINANCE and ELIMINATE LOBBYISTS from Washington now...
Good points there....soooooooo why are you camping outside the stock exchange and not the white house again? Did the bankers make up current laws on campaign financing? this is all nice but it is not saying anything about occupy wall street
besides....trying to poke holes in the Occupy Wall Street Protest tactic distracts from the issues...if they take up an issue like the one I have stated here, and they create a mandate for the White House to deal with it....Then the whole thing changes overnight....mark my words....
so this goes back to my original post "Were deliberately not making demands"
So what are you going to do then? Just sit there?
what?! that doesn't even make sense
I have written far more elegant words in this post than is adequate to respond to your questions...READ what I have written here already, and tell me what you really think about.....You are not responding to my arguments right now, you are responding to my ideological position...Jak too...
This is all way past that now....we have reached a critical point where traditional arguments between Democratic and Republican have no significance...just like the people in Washington who call themselves such, no longer have any significance....it's time for change man, just go with it....trust me ;) I'm not a wacko, and I don't hate America...I've just thought about this stuff more than you have..
so what do we do about it? What change?
Seriously though...whats the point of all this?
I'm ruling this post right now....anybody? questions, comments, concerns...
what are your demands
Campaign Finance Reform strict Regulations on Special Interest Lobbying...I've written in detail on this post already...maybe you just tune out after 20 or 30....
this is government reform that i agree with 100%
My question was to the 99% who are upset with rich people and corporations.
Well...isn't it pretty obvious that Corporate Power has exploited the power we have been foolish enough to give them in a pretty unconscionable way? That they are at least somewhat to blame....
I don't understand, for the life of me, how you could "agree with me 100%" and STILL be complaining about the protests...what is the point? it makes no sense
i agree that there should be campaign finance reform and lobbying reform, but i don't see what that has to do with "corporate greed"
The reason we devote 70 or 80 percent of our total budget to defense is CORPORATE GREED.
The reason there are so few decent paying jobs, with benefits and security in this country is because of CORPORATE GREED.
The reason the housing market collapsed is because of CORPORATE GREED.
The reason we bailed out these corrupt phonies with taxpayer money and are too timid to ask for it back, or to ask to them to do anything differently, really, even though we pretty much own them now is because of CORPORATE GREED.
The reason cars are still not as fuel efficient as they could be is because of CORPORATE GREED.
The reason we still have not moved decisively toward sustainable solutions to our energy needs is CORPORATE GREED.
The reason that mass media has zero journalistic integrity anymore is because of CORPORATE GREED.
And once you start to think, really think, about how all of these issues (and many many more) contribute to, and feed into and affect EVERYTHING else in our society, the more angry you get.
Word.
Well no one said that corporations had to supply us with anything at all. Why is it their job to encourage sustainable energy?No one seems to get that. Its all about the bottom line on the balance sheet like it or not. And as long as we keep downloading apps for our iPads and as long as we keep reading the tabloids its going to continue. If you have such a problem with the way corporations are operating then become a shareholder and try to actually make some changes, or stop consuming goods altogether.
As far as the housing bubble is concerned, I blame that on washington and the regulation agencies that made that possible.
No it's not their job to encourage anything, that's the point. It's their job to make money.
That's why we can't allow them to call the shots anymore, they could care less about any of that stuff. Not to say that we 99% all care about the exact same issues, but we could at least have a real debate again, about real issues.
And we could do it with the hope that the people we voted into office would actually for us again....
"corporate greed" is a big term, it means more than just skyrocketing CEO paychecks....they use their money to further their own agenda frequently at the expense of the average person. Government cannot reform banking regulations, it cannot pull troops out of Afghanistan, it cannot do anything of the things that it must do, that so many of us feel is important.
ALL government policy takes corporate interest into account before it takes the citizenry's needs into account. That is why people are upset because the Corporations have hijacked the whole ship, and they are taking it wherever it needs to go to satisfy their bottom lines. So people get angry with fat cat CEO's because they are a big shiny symbol of exactly and precisely what is wrong with American politics. You can argue that it is not the CEO's fault if you want, but that doesn't change the fact, we need to wrest control of our destiny out of their hands....
I mean the White House still doesn't even have the political will to demand that the banks pay back the bailout money, they basically have a gun to their collective heads and the ones with their fingers on the triggers are the Corporations.
Is it the corporations' fault that we are in this situation now? maybe, maybe not, that is arguable I suppose....kind of a chicken or the egg debate though, in my opinion. That shouldn't distract from the issues that you and I seem to "agree" on though....
My problem is that not enough people are voting...the turnout rate last election was something like 55%, that is embarrassing. We have the power to put people in office who will have our interests in mind, but we continue to fail to do that. I think bush was an example of that, and i think Obama was an extremely deceitful example of that. Sure corporations will try to use their weight to get what they want but the fact remains that government is not doing what it is in place to do. That is the bottom line.
You are correct, talking about armed insurrection when you didn't bother to vote is,to say the least, putting the cart before the horse.
People aren't voting because they know it is all a show anymore. Even if you loved Obama and agree with all of his ideas you can see that he has zero chance of really doing any of that stuff. He is paralyzed by his corporate masters into keeping things exactly as they are.
If we free them from their money masters we can at least be optimistic that an election might affect the course of events in this country. If they are ALL corporate cronies, at least enough of them that no one else has any real power, than we could get 90% of people out there voting and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.
You could hand pick your candidate right now, and they would get to Washington full of optimism and then realize that there is no chance of actually changing anything. You could go there yourself, and immediately be crushed by corporate interest.
The voting system works, obama is just weak, he was too radical and his early failures caused any republicans that might have supported him to turn away. now we have a gridlocked government.
I don't agree...I'm not sure you do either based on your support for my idea.
Please, be aware your choice of words reflects corporate media confusion. What the people are doing is about NEEDS not wants.--------
We always want what we need, but we do not always need what we want.
In 2003 during a peace march, the type Americans protesting at wall street were on our main street yelling in chorus, "What do we want? PEACE, When do we want it, NOW."----
I managed to correct them, . . . over and over I had to do this. WTF? Why am I still doing this?
Wow excuse my word confusion, how rude of me...So what will help you get the things you NEED?
People understanding that Article 5 of the US constitution is custom made for this movements demands and issues will get Americans the things they need. WIth it, through our states, we can meet every issue and demand.-
Here are some facts about Article 5 and a skype conference sign-up page, an effort to share accurate understandings about this constitutional back-door for the people.
http://www.articlevmeeting.info/
Article V conference, Mark Meckler Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-video comments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
To get laid!....NOT;-)!
We don't WANT socialism, at least I don't...We want ethical accountable, responsive democracy where a politician with real heart can actually go to Washington and work for the members of his or her community...what we have now is a facade, controlled by corporate interest....it really isn't that complicated actually....it may be difficult to fix....but the problem is very simple.
Corporate interests dominate the American political landscape, and they have for several decades now, in an ever increasing downward spiral: that is the core of the bank collapse, it is the one and only reason we continue to fight unjust and unwinnable wars over seas, it is the reason that the Middle Class is disappearing, it is the reason that people can work their whole lives, live responsibly and frugally and still have very little to show for it when it is all said and done.
Trust me, the vast majority of Americans are waking up to the truths herein, and those occupiers know this...And that is EXACTLY why they are out there, and it is EXACTLY why they will continue to be out there for as long as it takes...and that it is exactly why there are so many crazy people like myself dropping everything to spend hours on internet chat forums...I have a pile of papers to grade right now....but I'm here...because I can't be there....
I get the point and i have heard all of this...so what do you want to do about it? As long as it takes to do what?
and just as an aside...corporations are profit seekers, they have gotten bloated off of your money. if you have such a problem with corporations doing their job, then either get in the door and make changes or stop supporting their products.
I disagree with you, As OWs member I want : hot Chocolate, a warm tent and that's all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9zkQcLi4Yo
'Nuff said.
nuff said? I literally got nothing out of that...he didn't state one single demand of the movement. I get the point that we want to identify the ringers..THEN WHAT? You have made your presence known...now what are you going to do??? That is what I am getting at with this post and your video reaffirms my point.
We're pointing out the problems. We're pointing out the 500 ton elephant in the room that you've failed to see. An elephant such as this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_XtXhiekQk
If that doesn't piss you off, it should. We're demanding an end to that shit. Getting it yet?
I get it...so you have pointed out the elephant, i see it...now what?
Amen.
Here's what I'm doing. If this won't make a statement, then I'm at a loss as to what will.
Boycott crooked banks, close your acct with BoA, Goldman Sucks, Citi, Wells Fargone, any of the big banks. Local credit unions are the way to fly.
Boycott Chinese slave labor. Buy American made products, refuse as much made in China junk as you can.
Boycott evil corporations. Don't shop Wal-mart, refuse MS and Hollywood pap. I would say boycott gas companies too, but alas they made themselves into a necessary evil.
Boycott politicians. Both established parties are deeply on the take. Repubs are aggressive sociopaths, Dems are liars and/or neocons. None care about the people. I'm voting No Confidence on all of 'em.
well if you are really doing what you say than you are a rare minority.
Then help make the minority a majority. "Voting with the feet" works, if enough do it.
I know but people are too obsessed with iPads and mcdonalds to make it happen...things will change when people put down their consumer goods and put their money where there mouth is...and to be perfectly honest, i like my macbook, a lot, and im not going to pretend like i hate corporations for the millions the execs are making just because the unemployment rate is high.
So you're saying that you're not willing to put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is?
Look, YOU are the change. I am the change. Grow a conviction and make it happen, cause I can guarantee the politos, banks, and corps sure as hell won't. Their business as usual got us into this mess.
I think you are wrong...people like steve jobs are what make america great. One thing i do agree with you on is not outsourcing american labor, but even that can be traced back to consumers.
Styeve Jobs was a technological visionary, no doubt of that. BUT - and this may hurt your feelings, yet I'm blunt by nature - he did a lot of evil.
He stole from opensource, then shit on the opensource movement. Consumer lockin and collusion: You can't use an iPod without iTunes, and iTunes won't run on linux, but it works on MS and Mac just fine. :( He launched patent wars against makers of Android phones, and other competitors. Name an IGadget that isn't made in China. Just one! There isn't any that isn't made in China.
I'm a Linux user, and I don't own an iGadget.
yeah he was an extremely shrewd business man, some may say he did some "evil" along the way, tomato tomato...but I bet you at least 90% of protesters have an ipod
DEAR INDIVIDUAL READING THIS, What must we as people do to fight this grave injustice inflicted upon us, by the ones who lust for power? How can we end the reign of the wicked and immoral and mete JUSTICE upon the oppressors as we have suffered from their hands-their blood stained hands... An idea of REVOLUTION-no, the act of revolution enacted by the proletarians! Must we as individuals ,as is always done, remain pawns to these people, these monoliths that we alone as individuals cannot surmounted...I surmise that we are not ignorant to the woes inflicted upon us by their enormities? We must UNIFY! Unity will be the way in which we assert ourselves!...While I realize all are not are not without income or funds and many cannot unify with this growing movement do to reasons of possible opposition and they being the people I'm question who we oppose (Wall Street), and many have responsibility they must tend to that take precedence. We must rise and vanquish this behemothto restore the equilibrium, for when disturbed it causes much chaos and strife in the hearts of man( man being neutral to represent all genders) in his mind and when mans mind and soul are in chaos as many are they rise to vanquish the pestiferous wealthy. However we should not just target these individuals, each of us individually must confront the corruption in our hearts, how can we judge the corrupt and deem them so when we cannot be amenable for ourselves we will surely be deemed hypocrites as we will be.....I am not meaning to say that this protest is in any way unjust, for far too long have we suffered, I mean that we are expected to expiate our sins -assume our parts in the problems we face and how we may have caused it. Yes, the Bankers on Wall Street are corrupt in ways we don't have evidence of without an investigation. But as we suffer soshall they, for we will make it so. But what of our government I say, my fellow citizens do not neglect to Confront the complicit in this affair for the roots of corruption are deeply seated, we have silent enemies amongst us-be warned that although succession in our goals will happen we may face a greater threat to our rights granted unto us from birth be prudent and circumspect. Another issue I wish to address is the idea of mans continual corruption as all things will be permeated with this darkness Inside our hearts.......when a system is created it always deviates from the righteous path, for nations we have learnt of in our education are littered with tales of nations that became corrupt and faded Into the ruin of collapse, we know that a society without corruption is utterly inconceivable, impossible in ways each and everyone of us know...for as long as men exist so shall our inner evil....but I digress from my original Intent of this passage and I ask forgiveness as we must forgive all in all eventual....the rising potentiality of this movement is quite an astonishment, I thought we were not capable of such things and thus I admit I had less faith in my fellow man. I see that we have all come to the realization of the need to bring the greedy to justice, although the reasons for your protesting may be unique to you, you share many goal, I had prognostications, inklings seems more appropriate of a term, that one day man would wake to realize the greater truth outside of his/her reality, and break the cycles of obsession with superficial base needs and trite motives, a dull and predictable lot we were but we've surpassed that I hope....for if not we will founder and fall Into the patterns we had grown so accustomed to, living such prosaic pedestrian lives stultified by the elite and of our own ignorance we always have the means to educate ourselves in this age, we have no limits to what we may learn based on our status in society, the powerful can no longer succeed in keeping us stupefied we have freewill to reason and learn and form our own ideas, ideas that would otherwise have died by the hands of the bigots! Our endeavours shall be crowned with fruition of our goals for our will allows it, we have broken free from the will of the oppressors.... part...now it is your turn...as Desmond Tutu stated "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor." YOURS TRULY-Aaron Thomas Bridge
see this is what i mean..more rambling.
How about a simple "Hey, we would like a..., and maybe we should start..."
This isn't rambling it was an ideal, an expectation.....but if you scroll to the bottom of the essay you'll see it was a mistake...just read it..it says of how m must overcome our corruption and selfishness and be amenable for our actions.
so this should be "occupy human nature" then, the bankers are just doing what they were hired to do, and some of them were greedy. there has always been and there will always be greedy people.
gibs come talk to me...I'll help you understand :)
Im talking to you now...you said you have demands, what are they?
In my opinion, the heart of the issue is campaign finance reform. We need to have all political campaigns funded by the taxpayers from a separate fund. An amount would be designated say: 50 million dollars or 25 or whatever is a reasonable amount to actually travel and give speeches, and provide security for the candidates etc. And that NO OTHER MONEY be used, and that any contribution from ANY private donor big or small be made unlawful. AND REMOVE SPECIAL INTEREST LOBBIES from Washington. THEN we can begin to re-center American Democracy around the electoral process and the actual WILL of the people. Right now, politicians tell their "constituents" what they want to hear and make all of the promises they need to make, and then, newly elected (or re-elected) arrive in Washington and are immediately cornered and overwhelmed by all of the special interests that actually funded their campaign and dictate policy, and these politicians no longer connect "doing the will of the people" with "being a successful politician." Campaign financing and the lobbyists who OWN Washington, and every politician on both sides of the so-called “aisle” in their back pockets: THIS is the straw that is stirring this corrupt drink right now. Our leaders no longer need to act in the interests of the people they serve. Moreover, it is actually political suicide for them to do so. THAT, I feel, is a good "starting point" for one of this beautiful and exhilarating movement's central demands. REFORM CAMPAIGN FINANCE and ELIMINATE LOBBYISTS from Washington now...
Ok just reading your first sentence i can see that this is not an answer to my question. If this is your problem then you should be occupying DC, not wall street.
I'm not "occupying" shit dude...I'm sitting at my computer a million miles away from any of this...you're killing me with this nonsense...I think I have only have one or two more comments in me at this rate...
my point is that everything is being taken out on wall street when the white house is to blame. Your "demand" that you posted above was about campaign contributions, not financial reform.
financial reform is impossible without my demand....
American politics has a cancer at its core...if we don't root it out at the source....it will destroy us...Period.
My steps and measures are outlined pretty clearly just a few comments above, on this thread. I can't say I speak for everyone by any means, but I do think it is concrete, doable, and a hell of a good place to start.
Just scroll up, I don't want to copy it in here again.
what everyone is asking is how do we want it fixed? what steps and measures do we need to take/create in order for this change to become a reality?
I know,I've been saying that the whole time...wow
saying what?
That their not fooling us.
Federal
well this is more like it!
Bingo :)
There is no point. These people are delusional. Time to take responsibility for their own lives and stop blaming others. Enough already.
Jak...I gotta say..I don't understand the point of you even saying that here, whether you believe it or not. Are you all really that concerned that the OccupyMovement will be successful, and that things might actually change in this country?
Is there really ANY thinking adult person out there in this country who STILL do not welcome change of some kind?
Perhaps, you don't passionately believe we must change or we face destruction, but at the very least shouldn't we be curious? Open to the idea of change?
To sit back in your armchair and assume that because you're doing well that everything is fine for everybody is a little shortsighted, no?
Don't you still strive to make your business and personal affairs run more efficiently, more smoothly? no matter how well it is running now? Isn't there always room for improvement? It seems to me you wouldn't be where you are today, if you didn't understand that....
Change is good. You guys are not going to change anything. You are barking up the wrong tree. You type on a computer that was made in China by a company that trades on the stock exchange. You are more of the problem than the solution. Talk is cheap.
Slander can't hurt us....we're bigger than you now...Jak...sorry
oh please. you guys will be forgotten soon enough like a cheap whore. Slander? No, the truth just hurts.
very big, that's why you're here isn't it? because we are getting bigger everyday? You can admit it.....we're all on the same side you know ;)
My Dear Friend-
You are wasting your time. If you are serious I feel very bad for you. Please find something constructive to do with your time. Life is short.
"Please find something constructive to do with your time. Life is short."
Says the guy posting on the OWS forum...
Don't worry...I can multitask ;)
Besides, I could easily say the same thing to you...the fact that we are both here "wasting our time" only fuels this thing....you are validating my point every time you comment
why take responsibility for your own life when the government can pay for everything?
I hope you are joking gib
No im serious...why should i go to work when i can sit at home and have the government do everything for me. Im going to go down there tomorrow and demand that Obama starts serving me breakfast in bed...and i'm not leaving until it happens.
LOL
basically you want communism and are following the Leninist model
I think if we get the money out of politics, along the lines of what I have proposed above, that issues of ideology will sort themselves out...Americans won't have to decide between pursuing wealth with every fiber of our beings OR fighting against our corporate masters with every fiber of our beings....if we can sap their power through legislation and finally get out from under their yoke a bit we'll all be able to think more clearly politicians and unemployed cab drivers and everyone in between....
They are pitting us against each other, successfully, can't you "commie fearing" folks understand that yet?...
I agree - eliminate all lobbiests including unions and environmentalist lobbies.
Yes!!! That's what we want; to eliminate ALL money in politics!! We al gain from a more pure representational democracy.....the will of the people will be done then, NOT the will of who has more money. It has perverted and adulterated what should be the best system of governance in the world.
that would probably do more good than harm, honestly, as long as we weeded all the money out together at the same time...I know you're trying to continue to be facetious and divisive, but can't you see the value in what I'm saying? It is not about your ideological background anymore, nor mine...we all want our Democracy back, it's just that some of us still don't realize it's missing....you still have time, I'm not going to worry about you just yet....
I agree. All lobbyist need to go. shrink government to it's legitimate role, national defense, protect property and contract law, maintain a strong dollar and let the free market work. No lobbyists, no subsidies, no redistribution. A saftey net for the truly destitute not entitlements. We need to stop the governent from giving out free stuff paid for by the taxpayer. this is a tool to get votes
What have the Romans ever done for us
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
Dude, where were you when the 1% redistributed all the wealth.....upward!! NOW you're against it? Sad. Government's PRIMARY role, as stated in the preamble of the Constitution, is to establish justice. National defense is needed when we get invaded. The free market is owned (along with the rest of the country) by big corporations who agree with the part of the Federalist Papers where it says "the Owners of the Country wish to govern it. You are a tool of the powerful corporations, only too stupid to realize it.
so we agree - the free market isn't free. Let's start with that. dump Obamacare & Dodd Frank. Sarbane Oxley too while we are at it.
Do we agree the "free" market needs protections so banks can't sell you bundled mortgage securities, while AT THE SAME TIME betting against them, thanks to repeal of Glass-Steagall? Dodd-Frank had very little to do with the crash, but deregulation of securities vis-a-vis banks DID. Do the research; don't just "take sides"
I agree with you on Glass Steagal. The people taking out the mortgages they defaulted on are no saint's either. A lot of them were speculative house flippers. So there is plenty of greed to go around.
there ya go