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Forum Post: "The 'Both-sides-are-awful' Dismissal of Gaza Ignores the Key Role of the US Government", by Glenn Greenwald.

Posted 1 year ago on Nov. 21, 2012, 6:21 p.m. EST by shadz66 (19985)
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"The 'Both-sides-are-awful' Dismissal of Gaza Ignores the Key Role of the US Government"

The temptation to wash one's hands of the whole conflict is understandable, but US support of Israel is a central force driving it all.

by Glenn Greenwald.

Everything about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict follows the same pattern over and over, including the reaction of Americans. In the first couple of days after a new round of violence breaks out, there is intense interest and passion, which is quickly replaced by weariness, irritation, and even anger that one has to be bothered by this never-ending, always-ugly and seemingly irresolvable conflict. These sentiments then morph into an attempt to separate oneself from the entire matter by declaring both sides to be equally horrendous and thus washing one's hands from any responsibility for thinking further about it ("I'm sick of both sides"), followed by recriminations against anyone who actually has an opinion that is more supportive of one side than the other.

Esquire's Charles Pierce, one of the nation's best political writers, provided a classic case of this mindset yesterday in his post entitled "There Is No Side Worth Taking In Gaza". The crux: "I would like to have an opinion on this continual bloodletting that didn't sound banal but, goddammit, I'm out of them. I am thoroughly sick of both sides here." One encounters a version of this mentality with increasing frequency each day that the violence escalates.

This temptation is genuinely understandable. Few things are more depressing than paying attention to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The carnage and mutual hatred seem infinite. The arguments are so repetitive and fruitless. As is true in all wars, including those depicted in pleasing good-vs-evil terms, atrocities end up being committed by all sides, leading one to want to disassociate oneself from all parties involved. It is just as untenable to defend the indiscriminate launching by Hamas of projectiles into Israeli neighbourhoods as it is to defend the massive air bombing by Israel of what they have turned into an open-air prison that is designed to collectively punish hundreds of thousands of human beings.

Virtually everyone wishes the entire conflict would just go away. With the exception of extremists on both sides who benefit in various ways, nobody relishes having to become involved in any of this. It is exhausting, draining, soul-crushing, and miserable. Embracing "screw-both-sides" nihilism and doing nothing else is so tempting because it appears to provide relief from the burden of paying any further attention to the horrific violence or bearing responsibility for any of it.

But for two independent reasons, this reasoning, understandable though it may be, depends upon patent fictions, and is thus invalid. The first reason, which I will mention only briefly, is that there is not equality between the two sides.

As my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne superbly detailed in his column Tuesday night,

the overarching fact of this conflict is that the Palestinians, for decades now, have been brutally occupied, blockaded, humiliated, deprived of the most basic human rights of statehood and autonomy though the continuous application of brute, lawless force (for that reason, those who like to righteously condemn Hamas' rockets (Pierce, defending Obama; "he happened to be correct the other day. No country can tolerate the bombing of its citizens") have the obligation to state what form of legitimate resistance Palestinians have to all of this. Moreover, as these clear numbers from the Economist demonstrate, the violence and carnage so disproportionately harm the Palestinians that to suggest some form of equivalence between the two sides borders on the obscene :

But the second reason, to me, is even clearer. The government which Americans fund and elect, and for which they thus bear at least some responsibility, is anything but neutral in this conflict. That government - certainly including the Democratic Party - is categorically, uncritically, and unfailingly on the side of Israel in every respect when it comes to violence and oppression against the Palestinians.

For years now, US financial, military and diplomatic support of Israel has been the central enabling force driving this endless conflict. The bombs Israel drops on Gazans, and the planes they use to drop them, and the weapons they use to occupy the West Bank and protect settlements are paid for, in substantial part, by the US taxpayer, and those actions are shielded from recrimination by the UN veto power aggressively wielded in Israel's favor by the US government. As the excellent Israeli writer Noam Sheizaf put it on Chris Hayes' MSNBC program this weekend :

  • "Ultimately, the status quo is the solution from the perspective of [the Netanyahu] government. . . . . There's no incentive for the current [Israeli] political leadership to move from it, especially with the free hand it gets from the world and from the United States."

Just consider the actions of the US over the last week as violence in Gaza escalated. On Tuesday, the US vetoed a UN Security Council cease-fire resolution on the ground, in essence, that it was too balanced. The US State Department publicly attacked its Nato ally, Turkey, for condemning Israeli aggression. As always, the US Congress and the US Executive Branch are virtually unanimous in their full-throated, completely one-sided support for Israeli actions.

Last night, a producer for Rachel Maddow's MSNBC program, the long-time liberal blogger Steve Benen, gloated that the GOP's election-year attacks on Obama over Israel have been proven false because, as Benen noted [emphasis added]: "An Israeli official close to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the Obama administration's response to the conflict 'has been everything we could ever hope for.'" Though it should produce serious dismay rather than gloating, Benen is absolutely right in his factual claim: Obama specifically and Democrats generally have long been, and still are, every bit as loyal to and supportive of all Israeli actions as the American Right believes the US should be.

So this "both-sides-are-hideous" mentality is not what drives the actions of the US government. Quite the contrary: the US government is as partisan and loyal a supporter of one side of this conflict as one can possibly be. So if people want to rail against anyone who has convictions about one side or the other - Pierce: "The only people who make me more ill than the two active sides in this endless slaughter are the people far from the killing grounds who are so very goddamn sure they know what to do . . . I hate the cheering squads over here today" - then the place to begin is with the US government, the Obama administration, whose unstinting, multi-faceted support for and enabling of Israel is central to all of this.

Pierce does say that "I wish American arms and American dollars weren't being used to demolish entire impoverished neighbourhoods," but in the next breath asks: "People are waiting for the president to do something, but what is to be done?" But he answered his own question: the US need not be, and should not be, such an active, one-sided participant in this aggression. That one should vehemently condemn rocket attacks on civilians and bombs on Tel Aviv buses outside of an Israeli military facility does not mean sanctioning the years-long fuelling of the Israeli side of this conflict by the US government.

If one wants to try to wash one's hands of this entire matter by declaring both sides equally culpable, that's fine. But doing so requires an acknowledgement that the US government is doing nothing of the sort. It is fuelling, funding and feeding the Israeli war machine, and, with its own militaristic conduct, is legitimizing the premises of Israeli aggression.

This is exactly what I was referencing when I wrote on Saturday that one must stop pretending that the US is some sort of helpless, uninvolved party in this war between two distant, foreign entities. That is complete fiction. If an American citizen really wants to advocate for neutrality on the ground that both sides are equally horrible and they're sick of the whole conflict and wish it would all just go away, then the place to begin with that advocacy is US government policy which, as unpleasant as it might be to face, has long been, and remains more than ever, a key force that drives the bloodshed.

~

e tenebris, lux

~

Glenn Greenwald is a columnist on civil liberties and US national security issues for the Guardian. A former constitutional lawyer, he was until 2012 a contributing writer at Salon. He is the author of 'How Would a Patriot Act?' (May 2006), a critique of the Bush administration's use of executive power; 'A Tragic Legacy' (June, 2007), which examines the Bush legacy; and 'With Liberty and Justice For Some : How the Law Is Used to Destroy Equality and Protect the Powerful'.

[Article copied verbatim under "Fair Use" from http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/21/israel-gaza-us-support (alt. link : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33109.htm ) - please try to use these in order to access all the embedded links].

153 Comments

153 Comments


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[-] 9 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you caring, compassionate, cool but alas sometimes crazy, Americans !!!

I had thought that this article may be too strong for y'all on this day (or any) and was going to pull it but encouraged by the 'bensdad persona' propaganda below, I shall leave it for consideration if not debate !!

'Giving Thanks' for what you have is indeed a graceful state of mind and we all 'Give Thanks' for the ceasefire in Gaza. That perhaps is a rare moment of near unanimous agreement amongst all on this forum here today. Have a good one y'all. Happiness and harmony to you all and Give Peace A Chance !

Also I now believe that a real question will increasingly become (if it's not done so already) Is The Two State Solution Really Still Viable ? The abject reduction of Palestinians into what can only be called 'Bantustans' leads me and I'm sure others, to wonder as to what would happen if Palestinians dropped all ambitions and pretences towards an unviable separate state and simply demanded their full, legal, human and democratic rights - in the land of their and their forefathers' birth, in a binational One State !!!

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 7 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Very grateful for the cease-fire as well as the fact that the two parties are to negotiate a deal that will open the borders of the blockaded Palestinian territory. Every step in the right direction helps.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

It is surprising to see that we were able to get the ceasefire, the open border negotiation is just amazing. I get the impression Netanyahu is just giving them enough rope so I'm not very encouraged. Hopeful definitely.

Peace it's whats for dinner. Happy thanksgiving.

[-] 6 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Yes. Trying to be hopeful here. Time will tell. Shining a light on the conditions in Gaza and the violation of human rights there is of primary importance. Hence, from Amnesty International, a report on the Occupied Palestinian territories:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2011

Peace to you too, VQkag and Happy Thanksgiving.

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Thanx. Creating real improvement for the Palestinians will be most difficult,

So many war mongers are unyielding and uncompromising.

Sending good karma to them.

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

I'm with you.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

'Text of Israel-Hamas Peace Agreement', by 'Reuters'.

CAIRO, Nov 21 (Reuters) - Following is the verbatim English text of the ceasefire agreement between Israel and the Palestinians in Gaza that was reached on Wednesday with Egyptian mediation. The text was distributed by the Egyptian presidency.

Agreement of Understanding For a Ceasefire in the Gaza Strip

1: (no title given for this section)

A. Israel should stop all hostilities in the Gaza Strip land, sea and air including incursions and targeting of individuals.

B. All Palestinian factions shall stop all hostilities from the Gaza Strip against Israel including rocket attacks and all attacks along the border.

C. Opening the crossings and facilitating the movements of people and transfer of goods and refraining from restricting residents' free movements and targeting residents in border areas and procedures of implementation shall be dealt with after 24 hours from the start of the ceasefire.

D. Other matters as may be requested shall be addressed.

2: Implementation mechanisms:

A. Setting up the zero hour for the ceasefire understanding to enter into effect.

B. Egypt shall receive assurances from each party that the party commits to what was agreed upon.

C. Each party shall commit itself not to perform any acts that would breach this understanding. In case of any observations Egypt as the sponsor of this understanding shall be informed to follow up.

~

fiat pax ...

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

One small step. A long way to go. much can go wrong. many are waiting to pounce.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"All we saying is . . . ." : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhyiqGIJQus and the sad thing about the 'War Machines', wherever they may be based - is that they love nothing better than ever more WAR!!

pacem in terris - dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

The MIC, PTB lined up against us are more powerful than they have ever been.

But the reality is "the power of the people is far greater than the people in power".

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Our Government's Good Intentions ? William Blum discusses militarism, politics and his new book "America's Deadliest Export: Democracy: The Truth About U.S. Foreign Policy & Everything Else".

Half hour audio program with David Swanson talking to the excellent Wm. Blum.

Highly recommended 'Pacifica' Radio Show on the matter of the 'MIC and TPTB'.

omnia causa fiunt ...

[-] 5 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

As always, you have the best info.

Thx

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"When Propaganda Masquerades as News", by Prof. James F. Tracy : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33137.htm .

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Excellent. All important points. I was entirely unaware of the peace negotiations Jabari was involved in. Pretty important fact to exclude from reporting.

I would also add the lack of coverage of the probability that Israel is testing the missile defense, showing Iran the missile defense capability, & testing what kind support Obama provides. To what extent is this a test run of how to handle hostilities with Iran.?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

This is the nature of the mind management and media manipulation which we face on this and other matters. Thanx for your comment and as such, I append the following :

From the 'Haaretz', article -- "Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders.

Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination.

“I think that they have made a strategic mistake," Baskin said, an error "which will cost the lives of quite a number of innocent people on both sides."

"This blood could have been spared. Those who made the decision must be judged by the voters, but to my regret they will get more votes because of this,” he added.

With respect to your final point and question :

All the above links taken from : http://occupywallst.org/forum/israel-attacking-gaza-via-land-air-and-sea/ .

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Terrible times. Hard to see how we resist the war mongering pressure to invade Iran. Now that our election is over it would be easy for the admin to succumb & invade. I suppose we shouldn't expect anything before the israeli election. But shortly after that.

I can only suggest getting in the street and protesting all pols against all military action including and especially a new war in Iran.

And finally I submit we must identify, denounce, ridicule all the fear mongering 'war on terror' propaganda that creates the fear in our populations necessary to garner support.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

In reply to and from your excellent 'permalinked' comment on this sub-thread, I'd wholeheartedly agree with the "getting in the street and protesting all pols against all military action including and especially a new war in Iran." & also that - "we must identify, denounce, ridicule all the fear mongering 'war on terror' propaganda that creates the fear in our populations necessary to garner support." Finally, I append this :

As an aside, this whole forum, 'Best Comments Today' and 'Recent Comments' got voted down totally arbitrarily just now. Strange but true lol, and interesting to note that right-wing operatives still prowl here.

pax et lux ...

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

To know & to care. Indeed. This is our problem. We must address that failure 1st and foremost.

Keep up the pressure on all pols from the street, but a concerted effort to challenge the fear mongering propaganda is required if we are to educate the people, & stop the war mongerers.

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Well I do have people following me around downvoting me. I have accepted it as a 'cost of doing business'

So It might be my presence here and so I apologize.

But I'm sure I will enjoy the news in your link. So thx in advance.

[-] 4 points by GypsyKing (9780) 1 year ago

Thanks, and same to you - you caring, compassionate, cool, and crazy Brit.!!!

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx GK & you've induced a bit of navel gazing now, lol, but still on point re.the post & thread :

Alarming yet unsurprising somehow.

fallaces sunt rerum species ...

[-] 0 points by frovikleka (2563) from Island Heights, NJ 1 year ago

And on this cold (5F/-15C) Thanksgivng night in AK...... while sitting here with one of my daughters who is working on her graduate degree in anthropology....while the rest of the crew is asleep.... I thank you for forcing us to confront the truth, and for your humanity which comes through loud and clear in your many great posts.

peace, love, and light to you too my friend

~Odin~

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Sincere thanx for your kind words and grace 'O'. Despite the -15C (Brrrrrrr!!!) your comment was heart warming, encouraging and inspiring. You have clearly been party to leaving some very fine 'footprints in time' my friend and your reference to your beloved daughter's studies, instantly reminded me of a great website that I was introduced to at the height of the 'WikiLeaks' affair and which I loved but sort of forgot about and now I'll read, study, enjoy and refer to again. I append it herewith for you and perhaps for your daughter's attention too as well as an article for you on the subject matter of this forum-post and thread:

I used to heavily reference 'Zero Anthropolgy' and thanx 'O' for your friendship and feeling, the expression of which reminded me instantly of 'Z A'. Blessings upon you and yours my friend. Stay aware, stay well, stay warm !!!

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (28241) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 month ago
[-] 4 points by LeoYo (5854) 1 year ago

Noam Chomsky: The Assault on Gaza

Tuesday, 04 December 2012 07:06 By Noam Chomsky, Truthout | Op-Ed

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/13129-noam-chomsky-the-assault-on-gaza

An old man in Gaza held a placard that read: "You take my water, burn my olive trees, destroy my house, take my job, steal my land, imprison my father, kill my mother, bombard my country, starve us all, humiliate us all, but I am to blame: I shot a rocket back."

The old man's message provides the proper context for the latest episode in the savage punishment of Gaza. The crimes trace back to 1948, when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians fled from their homes in terror or were expelled to Gaza by conquering Israeli forces, who continued to truck Palestinians over the border for years after the official cease-fire.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Many thanx Leo for the strong link and I just used this article, so great synchronicity & also :

fiat lux ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

That is a great article.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Supporting Palestine at the UN Today Is a Vote for Peace in the Middle East", by Dr. Hanan Ashrawi : http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/29/supporting-palestine-un-vote-for-peace

Thanx bw, I got this news from u first & a reminder of some thoughts from Dr. Jill Stein, on this matter : http://occupywallst.org/forum/us-policy-to-israel-palestine-must-change-by-by-ji/ . Thanx for the link~*~

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

"Countries that do not vote with Palestine will be on the wrong side of history, morality and international law." True.

And, yes, Jill Stein is awesome on this issue as well as many others!

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Jill Stein - "Consistency in U.S. policy regarding human rights and international law will begin, but not end, with Palestine and Israel. I will apply this same approach to other nations, such as Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Yemen, among others. I will also ensure that the United States begins to honor its obligations to protect human rights, and will expect that the world community will hold us to the same account we hold others."

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Jill Stein is wonderful. She deserves Occupy's full attention as her platform is very much consistent with what Occupy stands for.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

From : http://www.jillstein.org/ - "As the votes are counted and reported, our numbers are rising. As of today, Monday, November 26th, the total number of votes reported for Jill Stein for President are 455,846. This total does not include several thousand of votes projected but still unreported by state officials. And it does not include write-in votes in several states. When all is said and done, the total reported vote should be between 460,000 and 470,000 nationwide.".

Like OWS, Dr. Jill Stein is planting the seeds for a better tomorrow for all but sadly, I have to append :

dum spiro, spero ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

That is great about Jill Stein. Half a million votes is a good start.

And, huh? re: cutting U.S. aid to Palestine. Good grief. What about the 3,000 settler homes being built by Israel in the West Bank?:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20552391

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Unfortunately and as your link shows, the clearly displayed penchant of this present right-wing extremist regime in Israel for what can only be described as 'collective punishment', knows no shame & also see :

From your excellent and recommended BBC link : "The decision of the UN in New York to upgrade the status of the Palestinians by an overwhelming majority could be seen as largely symbolic. But the point is that in the Middle East, symbolism matters.

"Plenty of attention in the build-up to the vote was centred on a technical question about UN procedures which could have far-reaching political implications - would this upgraded status give the Palestinians access to UN agencies and the International Criminal Court?

"If it did, then they would be able in theory to pursue Israel for its settlement policies on the West Bank - widely seen as a clear breach of international law.

"Israel rejects that legal interpretation - but it may not be anxious to see the issue tested in court."

multum in parvo ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Oooh. That is not nice and does not bode well for upcoming peace. "The financial sanction is Israel's second punitive response to the vote. On Friday, it announced a big settlement expansion programme." WTF?

All good points you extracted above. Universal human rights for all people everywhere!!!

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Nope, not nice at all !! For a deeper perspective, please consider :

fiat lux et fiat justitia ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Great article by Chomsky. Thanks for that link and the one linking to the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

"Throughout these years, Gaza has been kept on a level of bare survival, imprisoned by land, sea and air. On the eve of the latest attack, the U.N. reported that 40 percent of essential drugs and more than half of essential medical items were out of stock."

What more does the world need to hear? This occupation is wrong on every level and must end. Only then can the healing begin.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

The Chomsky article is indeed a powerful piece and I completely concur with your comment. Furthermore, in due course, please also consider :

  • "Is Netanyahu Trying to Make the Two-State Option an Impossibility ?", by Karl Vick (Copied below in entirety)

Unless you’re actually driving around the West Bank – sailing down the freeways Israel has built atop Palestinian land, or steering down the two-lane roads etched into the hillsides topped with more than 200 subdivisions, little bits of California atop stone hills straight from Bible story books – it’s difficult to appreciate the reality of what Israel calls its “settlement project.” But a geography specialist named Danny Seidemann found a vivid point of reference for the new part of it Israel announced over the weekend: “The doomsday settlement.”

If the U.N. has moved to declare Palestine is a state, then Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has a few things to say–and do–about that. The 1.6 million Palestinians living on the Gaza Strip are already separated by 25 miles from the 2.4 million on the West Bank. The project Netanyahu’s government began moving forward on Friday would cut the West Bank itself in half, dividing its north from its south while barricading off a bit of Jerusalem in the bargain, and with it, in all likelihood, the plans to name the Arab sections of the city as Palestine’s capital. “The impact,” says Seiedmann, whom foreign embassies routinely consult as an expert on settlements and the boundaries of the contentious city, “is basically the creation of facts on the ground that would make the two-state solution dead. It’s not only a game-changer, it’s a game-ender.”

The reaction to Netanyahu’s bold move, both in Israel and abroad, was swift and negative. Britain and France summoned Israel’s ambassadors to hear protests, and reportedly were considering ordering their own envoys home, a move without precedent. Washington condemned the move, which came just hours after UN ambassador Susan Rice forcefully delivered a speech of solidarity with the Jewish State on the floor of the General Assembly.

In Israel, both the right and left wing of the Hebrew press asked why, after losing the U.N. vote 138 to 9, an Israeli government would announce a move sure to further its international isolation. (Technically, the way Palestine is run hasn’t changed because of the vote; the Palestinian Authority simply has a different status–which happens to have the word “state” in it–within the international organization, with a few new legal prerogatives.) In Ma’ariv the conservative columnist Ben-Dror Yemeni called Netanyahu’s move “Pavlovian,” writing, “Rather than thank the American administration for its amazing support on Thursday at the UN vote, the slap in the face came on Friday with the announcement of the construction of thousands of additional housing units.” In Yedioth Ahronoth, Nahum Barnea reported from the Saban Forum, a Washington gathering of prominent Israeli and Americans where the rules constrain attendees from saying who said what. The gist of a speech by a prominent American politician (identified in the same paper the next day as former Obama chief of staff Rahm Emmanuel) was: “You Israelis are ingrates. You’ve screwed yourselves.” Barnea’s conclusion: “Something bad has happened over the years to the production line in Israeli politics.”

The “doomsday settlement” would be built on a section of land labeled “E1” on planning maps of Jerusalem and its surroundings. The land is currently a park – the visually striking western slope of a hillside leading toward the Jordan Valley and a massive Jewish settlement already in place, Maale Adumim. All the land is Palestinian, but Israel has occupied it since 1967, and by filling it with Jewish housing would make it impossible to travel from, say, Ramallah, to Hebron. On maps, what looks like open space to the east is in fact the depths of the Jordan Valley, hundreds of meters below sea level where the Dead Sea lay.

“The administration warned Netanyahu publicly last Friday, ‘Please don’t do it,’’’ Seidemann says, who goes on to describe the Israeli Prime Minister’s decision to ignore the advice as consciously flagrant.

Meanwhile, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas returned from New York to cheers. “We are now a state,” he told a throng of 3,000 loyalists in the West Bank city of Ramallah. “The world is with us, and history is with us, God is with us and the future is ours.” The new paradigm was displayed down the length of a nearby building, where a banner unfurled in hazard yellow read, in English, Arabic and Hebrew: “Warning! This is illegally occupied land. State of Palestine, 29/11/2012”

“Let me just say that we are standing at a very big Palestinian wedding,” said a delighted Talal J’bara, 65. “It is the first time the world recognizes who we are and that we even exist.”

“The most important thing now is that our leaders do whatever it takes to stop the expansion of the settlements and all of Israel’s wrongdoing,” said Khateem Khatab, a retiree who had traveled from Jerusalem to Ramallah for the celebratory rally. “Negotiations will only prevail once the Israelis stop all their provocations against the Palestinian people and their land.” (Netanyahu also announced Israel would hold back more than $100 million in tax revenues owed to the Palestinian Authority, a punishment that Washington also had urged Israel to forgo. )

Abbas framed the bid for statehood as a last-ditch effort to revive negotiations begun almost 20 years ago aimed at creating a Palestinian state beside Israel, roughly on the border that separated the two populations until 1967, when Israeli forces defeated Arab armies and began occupying the West Bank and Gaza. But as the negotiations dragged on, Israel continued settling its people on the land – they now number 500,000, including neighborhoods built in East Jerusalem.

Having foresworn violent resistance, Abbas argued that diplomatic leverage was the only kind available to check Israel’s military and other advantages. The UN vote naming Palestine a “non-member state” opens the door to the International Criminal Court, where individual Israelis could be charged for violations of war crimes, a threat Abbas says he will hold in abeyance for now. A period of sorting and settling is likely underway. Though both sides say they are wiling to return to negotiations, each are likely to be addressing mostly their own constituencies for the next few months. Netanyahu is facing an election set for Jan. 22, a prospect that Seidemann and others say may help account for his decision to brandish E1 — it plays to the rightist and settler constituencies that have recently all but overwhelmed his Likud party. Abbas, meanwhile, is under new pressure to find a way to reconcile with Hamas, the militant Islamist group that governs Gaza, and bring the two Palestinian territories under a unified administration, especially now that they’re nominally a state.

But in a conflict that’s finally, ultimately, about land, the lessons of November were not lost on Palestinians:

Hamas launched 1,300 missiles into Israel during the military offensive aimed at stopping the launches, and in return won territorial concessions. Under the terms of the cease-fire brokered by Egypt, Gaza’s fishermen doubled the distance they can travel from shore before encountering Israeli gunboats, and Palestinian farmers won access to the one-third of the enclave’s arable land that abuts the border fence with Israel proper. A week later, Abbas, who heads the secular Fatah party, won the lopsided vote at the United Nations, and Israel’s response was to appropriate another chunk of the West Bank for its own use. “We have one goal and to be honest it doesn’t matter whether it is Fatah or Hamas, the most important thing is that we achieve our freedom,” says Manar Fathi, 40, at the Ramallah rally. “As long as the world is with us, I don’t think we even care about what Israel is and what they can do to us.”

~

fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ...

~

{Karl Vick has been TIME's Jerusalem bureau chief since 2010, covering Israel,the Palestine territories and nearby sovereignties. He worked 16 years at the Washington Post in Nairobi, Istanbul, Baghdad, Los Angeles and Rockville, MD.}

[Article copied verbatim under 'Fair Use' from : http://world.time.com/2012/12/03/is-netanyahu-trying-to-make-the-two-state-option-an-impossibility/ & use this to access all the embedded corroborating links]

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

A very important article because it does such a good job of outlining the most recent events and current situation of this conflict. Every word of this article is substantial so I can barely find an excerpt that stands out, lol.

Most importantly, the world is now behind the Palestinian state. Israel should take heed and the people of Israel should oust their leaders who clearly are not acting in their best interest.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Every word of this article is substantial", I completely agree and which is indeed why I copied that article in its entirety. Your comment is a case of 'multum in parvo' - 'much in little' & thus, in a similar vein and strictly for grown-ups, I append : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article33218.htm .

minima maxima sunt ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Zionism, it seems to me, has it's deep roots in the religious belief of Eretz Israel, that the area that makes up the Southern Levant is a God-given inheritance of the Jewish people. Zionism also has more shallow roots in the belief that there is a need for a Jewish state in Palestine because Jews are unsafe in the west and Jews have a biblical connection to Palestine. If religious beliefs are put aside, which they should be because they are not based in any fact, then rights to this land cannot be claimed for that reason. Looking at the shallower roots of Zionism, this is probably true, the Jews need a homeland, but does it have to be any particular piece of land? No. Just someplace where they can live and be safe, even among others, perhaps. What is unreasonable about that?

Thanks for that most interesting article.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 8 months ago

And, now the Bedouins are being threatened.

"In an Israeli Plan, Bedouins See a Threat to Their Way of Life" NY Times, 12/8/13.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/08/world/middleeast/in-an-israeli-plan-bedouins-see-a-threat-to-their-way-of-life.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

“I don’t need gutters,” complained one man during a recent meeting with government representatives in a tin-roofed tent in Abdeh, one of many villages in the desert that Israel does not recognize. “I don’t want a road,” added another. Finally, to be perfectly clear, 70-year-old Swellem al-Kallab, the tribal elder, leaned into his visitors’ faces, took the toothpick from his mouth and traced a circle on the concrete floor. “Where we sit right now, you just draw a line around it,” he seethed. “I want to stay here.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouin

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/58173/Bedouin

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

The plight of the nomadic bedouin in their ancestral ancient homeland is really indicative of the wider treatment of Palestinians. The writer Max Blumenthal wrote a particularly revealing piece about this matter a couple of months ago. Thanx for your excellent links and so also please try to see :

At this time of Nelson Mandela's passing, some very clear parallels should be abundantly clear to all.

ad iudicium ...

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 8 months ago

"“We don’t belong to this region,” Sofer explained.

In that single sentence, he distilled the logic of Israel’s system of ethnocracy. The maintenance of the Jewish state demands the engineering of a demographic majority of nonindigenous Jews and their dispersal across historic Palestine through methods of colonial settlement. State planners like Sofer refer to the process as “Judaization.” Because indigenous Palestinians and foreign migrants are not Jews, the state of Israel has legally defined most of them as “infiltrators,” mandating their removal and permanent relocation to various zones of exclusion -- from refugee camps across the Arab world to walled-off West Bank Bantustans to the besieged Gaza Strip to state-constructed Bedouin reservations to the desert camp of Saharonim."

Your last sentence is right on and the world should be looking to a similar, one state solution in Israel, where all people are equal, but not just politically, but socially and economically as well, which, of course, S.A. still strives for.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

Apartheid and its legacy is particularly under scrutiny as this time of Mandela's passing and therefore, I suspect for PR reasons more than anything else - the immediate threat to The Negev Bedouin seems to have lessened a little - for now :

Many thanx for your critical excerpt and clear, heart-centred points & so, in compliment fyi, I'll append :

fiat lux ; fiat justitia ; fiat pax ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 8 months ago

Academics in support of the Palestinians endorse a boycott of Israel:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/education/scholars-group-endorses-an-academic-boycott-of-israel.html?ref=todayspaper

Of course, it's controversial, but "An American organization of professors on Monday announced a boycott of Israeli academic institutions to protest Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, signaling that a movement to isolate and pressure Israel that is gaining ground in Europe has begun to make strides in the United States."

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

''Members of the American Studies Association voted by a ratio of more than two to one to endorse the boycott in online balloting that concluded Sunday night, the group said.

''With fewer than 5,000 members, the group is not one of the larger scholarly associations. But its vote is a milestone for a Palestinian movement known as B.D.S., for Boycotts, Divestment and Sanctions, which for the past decade had found little traction in the United States. The American Studies Association is the second American academic group to back the boycott, movement organizers say, following the Association for Asian American Studies, which did so in April.'' - from your interesting link & in reply :

''The past struggle in the West against South Africa’s apartheid regime shows that intentional rejection of a regime’s legitimacy is a bottom up process, and this may still happen to the new, enlarged state of Israel. The role of Palestine’s friends world-wide has therefore not changed and this is to continue with the same commitment and vigour to pressure their governments to sanction this new regime for its criminal policies.

''The strategy for the people inside has also not changed much. The sooner they realise that they cannot struggle any more for an independent Palestine inside the ‘Palestinian space’, the better. They could instead concentrate on uniting the Palestinian front and strategising a struggle plan, together with progressive Israelis, for a regime change in this new one state that was established in 2001. There is an urgent need for a new strategy to reformulate the relationship between Jews and Palestinians in the land of Israel and Palestine.'' from :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 8 months ago

"Students at George Mason University organize graduation walkout on Apartheid profiteer Shari Arison" from:

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/university-graduation-apartheid.html

Quite a bit of anger among the students at George Mason University regarding Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and the invite of Shari Arison to their graduation ceremony. Good for those students for standing up for what they believe in. If only more people could have empathy for others who suffer around the world. It always gives me hope when I see young people taking action.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 7 months ago

''It always gives me hope when I see young people taking action.'' Emphatic ditto bw and also fyi :

spero meliora ...

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

P1/2 - THE LOST OWS NEWS ARTICLE RE. GAZA :

Since the latest round of violence erupted in Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, many of us in OWS (who have always felt inspired by those so-called "Arab Spring" demonstrators who occupied their public squares in a cry for democracy) have felt saddened and torn. We completely condemn the Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, but we also know that retaliation will only beget further violence. We hold diverse opinions on the ongoing situation there, but from the bottom of our hearts, we feel the utmost solidarity and compassion for those -- on all sides of the conflict -- who are suffering from terror and wish peace to prevail. It is possible to support those in Israel [link via Occupy Judaism] without supporting the injustices perpetuated by the Israeli state; we stand united against antisemitism and islamophobia alike, and we condemn violence from all sides.

Some Occupiers have been taking part in a recent round of solidarity demonstrations with the people of Gaza. Meanwhile, in Israel, supporters of the #J14 social justice movement and many others have also demonstrated against the military actions of Israel. OWS has always been a nonviolent movement, and as such, we oppose all militarism as robbing the 99% (of money and lives) and strengthening the stranglehold of the 1%. It is clear that these latest acts of aggression, like wars orchestrated by the U.S. government at home and abroad, are just another way of boosting election chances by power-hungry politicians.

This latest Israeli assault takes place among a complex history. Palestinians, like all people, deserve self-determination, the right to return to their homes, to not have their communities demolished, and not forced to live in open-air prisons under military blockade or threat of invasion. But war will not solve this crisis, nor any other; it will only increase extremism, resentment, poverty, and the underlying systemic problems that perpetuate more violence. Collectively punishing an entire population for the actions of a few is not justice. Just as our own government here in U.S. spends trillions on "military defense" while education, infrastructure, and social programs crumble, neither Hamas nor Netanyahu government truly care for the poor and oppressed within their own lands, aside from meager social programs, and would rather spend millions on rockets than create real social justice.

Make no mistake: While we must stand against violence in all forms, this "war" is a one-sided conflict between a military which is one of the largest and best-equipped in the world, the Israeli Defense Forces, who enjoy widespread support from the U.S. military industrial complex, and a people whose lands have been steadily dwindling for decades. Civilian causalities in Gaza, a tiny strip of land that is densely populated and has been under blockade for some time (meaning that no one can leave, there is no where to hide, and medical supplies and other goods cannot enter) far outweigh those in Israel, with its advanced missile defense system. As a result, despair and desire for revenge are on the rise, and politicians on all sides seek to exploit this.

While the 1% of the United States supports and profits from these latest acts of aggression, and U.S. money and arms are used to conduct it, there are those of us within these colonized borders who refuse to let this happen in our name, with our tax dollars. As if it were not enough to merely denounce militarism and hatred for its own sake, to those who would say this is not an economic issue, or that this does not apply to income inequality: How much poverty is one jet, one bomb worth? There can be no social justice or economic equality in a world ruined by war or controlled by colonialism.

The United States, itself built on broken treaties and stolen land, is still the greatest exporter of arms and builder of the largest (and most racially disparate) prison system ever known on Earth. For those incarcerated and targeted by police brutality, for those who are forced to live on impoverished reservations, and those shackled by debt here in the U.S., to the victims of terror in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, and across the world, we must continue to build a mass people's movement across divisions of race, religion, and all other borders to oppose tyranny, colonialism, and war in all forms. We all deserve to live in safety in our homes and enjoy the same rights, regardless of religion or race, whether we are immigrants or not. Our leaders would distract us by filling our minds with zealous hatred and send us to kill and die. We say no more.

The best way to end war is to start by overthrowing our regimes at home. Those with power wish to keep it; and war is profitable, politically and economically, for them. As long as the logic of capitalism declares "pursue profit at all cost," regardless of the toll it takes on humanity, and as long as power, land, and resources are concentrated in the hands of the 1%, wars will continue as the rest of us are forced to compete over what is left, what for thousands of generations was shared by all. The capitalist imperative that allows multinational banks to profit by evicting innocent families from their homes is the same logic that justifies taking more and more land in Palestine and the world over. The bombs over Gaza and Tel Aviv are merely the most dramatic example of a global system that seeks to rob us all of our right to live peacefully. Protesting wars abroad is not enough; we must fight the war at home.

This is why the best way to end war is to end capitalism and domination. We must make right the wrongs of the past by building a world in which all have access to the basic means of survival and safety, so that not one more person will die in a fruitless war. Our struggles should not be against one another, but against those who would rob us of our land and send us to fight and die for their own gain.

Our struggle for peace, justice, and reconciliation here in United States is the same struggle of all peoples everywhere. Those who call for and profit from war, regardless of their stated claims, are the enemies of us all. This is why we say Occupy Wall Street, not Palestine! No to war! No to racism everywhere! No to the war machine fueled by greed!

The following statement, issued by a group calling itself "Gaza Youth Breaks Out" has gone viral on the internet, and we reproduce it here to show our solidarity with the innocent civilians of Gaza and Israel, and because we feel affinity with its message.

~

P2/2 to follow ...

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 month ago

'THE LOST OWS NEWS ARTICLE on Gaza' as above & much food for thought there from the last War Of Choice only 18 months ago, when OWS could not agree on War, Justice & Peace <{sad sigh}> + ...

respice, adspice, prospice et fiat lux ; fiat justitia ; fiat pax ...

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

P2/2 - GAZAN YOUTH’S MANIFESTO FOR CHANGE

F--k Hamas. F--k Israel. F--k Fatah. F--k UN. F--k UNWRA. F--k USA! We, the youth in Gaza, are so fed up with Israel, Hamas, the occupation, the violations of human rights and the indifference of the international community! We want to scream and break this wall of silence, injustice and indifference like the Israeli F16’s breaking the wall of sound; scream with all the power in our souls in order to release this immense frustration that consumes us because of this fucking situation we live in; we are like lice between two nails living a nightmare inside a nightmare, no room for hope, no space for freedom. We are sick of being caught in this political struggle; sick of cold dark nights with airplanes circling above our homes; sick of innocent farmers getting shot in the buffer zone because they are taking care of their lands; sick of bearded guys walking around with their guns abusing their power, beating up or incarcerating young people demonstrating for what they believe in; sick of the wall of shame that separates us from the rest of our country and keeps us imprisoned in a stamp-sized piece of land; sick of being portrayed as terrorists, homemade fanatics with explosives in our pockets and evil in our eyes; sick of the indifference we meet from the international community, the so-called experts in expressing concerns and drafting resolutions but cowards in enforcing anything they agree on; we are sick and tired of living a shitty life, being kept in jail by Israel, beaten up by Hamas and completely ignored by the rest of the world.

There is a revolution growing inside of us, an immense dissatisfaction and frustration that will destroy us unless we find a way of canalizing this energy into something that can challenge the status quo and give us some kind of hope. The final drop that made our hearts tremble with frustration and hopelessness happened 30rd November, when Hamas’ officers came to Sharek Youth Forum, a leading youth organization (www.sharek.ps) with their guns, lies and aggressiveness, throwing everybody outside, incarcerating some and prohibiting Sharek from working. A few days later, demonstrators in front of Sharek were beaten and some incarcerated. We are really living a nightmare inside a nightmare. It is difficult to find words for the pressure we are under. We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. They did not get rid of Hamas, as they intended, but they sure scared us forever and distributed post traumatic stress syndrome to everybody, as there was nowhere to run.

We are youth with heavy hearts. We carry in ourselves a heaviness so immense that it makes it difficult for us to enjoy the sunset. How to enjoy it when dark clouds paint the horizon and bleak memories run past our eyes every time we close them? We smile in order to hide the pain. We laugh in order to forget the war. We hope in order not to commit suicide here and now. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the earth. During the last years Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. We are a generation of young people used to face missiles, carrying what seems to be a impossible mission of living a normal and healthy life, and only barely tolerated by a massive organization that has spread in our society as a malicious cancer disease, causing mayhem and effectively killing all living cells, thoughts and dreams on its way as well as paralyzing people with its terror regime. Not to mention the prison we live in, a prison sustained by a so-called democratic country.

History is repeating itself in its most cruel way and nobody seems to care. We are scared. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We are afraid of living, because every single step we take has to be considered and well-thought, there are limitations everywhere, we cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want, sometimes we even cant think what we want because the occupation has occupied our brains and hearts so terrible that it hurts and it makes us want to shed endless tears of frustration and rage!

We do not want to hate, we do not want to feel all of this feelings, we do not want to be victims anymore. ENOUGH! Enough pain, enough tears, enough suffering, enough control, limitations, unjust justifications, terror, torture, excuses, bombings, sleepless nights, dead civilians, black memories, bleak future, heart aching present, disturbed politics, fanatic politicians, religious bullshit, enough incarceration! WE SAY STOP! This is not the future we want!

We want three things. We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask? We are a peace movement consistent of young people in Gaza and supporters elsewhere that will not rest until the truth about Gaza is known by everybody in this whole world and in such a degree that no more silent consent or loud indifference will be accepted.

This is the Gazan youth’s manifesto for change!

We will start by destroying the occupation that surrounds ourselves, we will break free from this mental incarceration and regain our dignity and self respect. We will carry our heads high even though we will face resistance. We will work day and night in order to change these miserable conditions we are living under. We will build dreams where we meet walls.

We only hope that you – yes, you reading this statement right now! – can support us. In order to find out how, please write on our wall or contact us directly: freegazayouth@hotmail.com

We want to be free, we want to live, we want peace.

FREE GAZA YOUTH!

Pls consider supporting us by taking one or more of the following actions :

1) Promoting our manifesto by sharing it on your profile on Facebook

2) Sending an email to your friends asking them to like our page FB

3) Translating the manifesto to your language and sending it to us (we have it in English, Arabic, Hebrew, French, Portuguese, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch, Danish)

4) Sending the manifesto to journalists in your country

5) Making organizations in your countries that are concerned with the Palestinian issue and/or youth rights know about our existence

6) Posting links about violation of youth's rights in Gaza on our wall

7) Planning an event in your country about this issue and/or organizing for a skype conference, where we are able to talk with a group of youth, politicians or others outside Gaza

8) Suggesting us ideas for reaching out to a greater number of people

~

~

fiat lux ...

[-] -2 points by Coyote88 (-24) 1 year ago

How long did it take you to whomp this up?

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

And how do you think things would be if the US (ie West) never supported Israel.?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

they wouldn't have nuclear weapons.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

So that would be the extent of what our support has meant? Seems a bit simplistic & 1 dimensional.

What if we (& thewest) withdrew our support? What would happen?

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

The BIGGEST part of US government support has been giving them weapons and money.

If we withdrew that support, they'd probably stop bombing places and stop acting like an aggressor. You may remember Netenyahu wants to bomb Iran and get the US to go to war.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I remember. In fact he is part of the right wing effort to scare us into more war.

I am against Israeli policies that perpetrate war & suffering, certainly the occupation & settlements are abhorrent to me.

I am also against the military actions against Israelis.

Let me be plain. Would the state of Israel survive.? Or would they be overrun, pushed into the Mediterranean , wiped off the map.?

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Israel would be fine. No one is saying remove "ally" status. We're saying stop funding their warmongering.

We should not be supporting Israel on this issue.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"funding" nah nobodies been that specific. That's you moving the goalpost. But ok. I'll play.

So we would still provide military support? I think that enables the war mongering.

We have been criticized (by OUR right wing war mongers) for not supporting the Israeli right wing war mongers enough.

Do you support our 'new' approach that our right wing war mongers have criticized?

Do you support the ceasefire we negotiated?

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

I'm being that specific.

You're contradicting yourself. You go from saying Israel is "right wing warmongers" to implying that it would be wrong to not back them militarily.

I'm all about the cease fire.

I don't think the US should be giving weapons and money to Israel... especially when they have abused that power.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I support the ceasefire as well. I also support the tougher approach the US has taken with Israel because as you say Israel has "abused that power".

No contradiction here. Not implying any course of action.

The current Israeli govt is right wing war mongers. (they have joined with our right wing war mongers to pressure an invasion of Iran) I support our successful resistance of that war mongering.

My question to you is why wouldn't Israel be wiped out if they lose our military support?

Happy thanksgiving

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Who's the aggressor?

You really think Iran or someone else is going to strike them?

Most of the reasons other countries have problems with them is because of their use of their military capabilities. Nuclear weapons for instance.

They'd still have the USA to deal with even if Israel had zero weapons.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"use of their military" "nuclear weapons for instance"? Israel has never used a nuclear weapon.

Ok so you proposing we stop aid, and providing military weapons but provide defense against an attack?

Ok that should address the aggression that might come against them. But I think if we continue to "have their back" that enables, & encourages their continued belligerence. no?

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Never said they're using Nuclear weapons. I've said they've used their military against other countries. I said a lot of countries have problems with israel over there because they have nuclear weapons and have acted in aggressive manner before and want to start wars with several countries that don't have nuclear weapons.

The government that is in massive debt because of failing foreign policy shouldn't be giving weapons and money to Israel the way the government has been. That's all there is to it.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Debt? This is the measure for you?. Wow. I believe the money has to be disregarded. I support peace. I am against war. Whatever the cost. I would be willing to pay.

I would also defend the innocent (perhaps even Palestinians) against aggression. The money is not part of my equation.

You have mentioned Israeli mistakes/crimes. Are there any actions AGAINST Israel that you object to?

Are you unaware of violence against Israel? Or are you aware but support that military action?

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

The failed foreign policy that is creating the debt is what I have a problem with.

I don't agree with the USA's pilcies with Israel. The government shouldn't be giving them weapons and money they way they have been..

You constantly try to skew people's views to attack them. It's ridiculous.

The war spending is ridiculous.

Giving out weapons and funding war is not peace.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

I disagree with the money side you raised. I disregard it because I prefer to discuss peace at any cost, & I see it as a distraction tactic.

I guess I'm gonna have to ask again. (I suspect you are avoiding the tough questions)

You have mentioned Israeli mistakes/crimes. Are there any actions AGAINST Israel that you object to?

Are you unaware of violence against Israel? Or are you aware but support that military action?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 1 year ago

I know a few door knobs that might get you a better conversation.

[-] 1 points by newShep (-179) 1 year ago

US should get out of the Middle East and mine their own business

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

"Nyak, Nyak, Nyak! woop wooop wooop!"

The Stooge speaks. STFU you right wing extremist moron!

[+] -6 points by newShep (-179) 1 year ago

Either the US should get out of the Middle East or make it one giant parking lot but spare Israel

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Exactly what I expect a Stooge to say.! Thank you for that. Now expect a poke in the eye, Shemp!

LOL

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

It is time to stop making excuses and being intellectually lazy. This article makes a very important point about, not only U.S. involvement and support for one side over the other, but about the dulling of the brain that comes along with it. Americans have been lulled into thinking that this is just the way it has to be, when, if they bothered to look closely, they would see how immoral the actions of the U.S. government are. It is time to seek the truth because only by doing so can this region ever heal.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

On this 49th anniversary of JFK's murder :

Thanx for your very thoughtful, heart centred comment 'bw'. The massive levels of 'dumbing down' and 'mind management' with regard to Israel/Palestine and on others matters are actually in the long term storing up trouble as people will eventually wise up. 'Truth', 'reconciliation' and working towards 'peace through justice' are the only solution. 'Manufacturing Consent' is a temporary phenomenon it'd seem !!

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Thanks for those words from JFK. They still ring true today.

"What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek?.....I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time."

"In the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal."

"We must all, in our daily lives, live up to the age-old faith that peace and freedom walk together."

Nice.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"We must all, in our daily lives, live up to the age-old faith that peace and freedom walk together." - deserves echoing and warrants a momentary meditation and thanx for the excellent extraction of exceptional excerpts again bw.

From back in time and beyond the material, JFK echoes therising as we struggleforfreedom towards a beautifulworld and beyond ~*~

I became an uncle to a beautiful new born niece & new life begets 'forward looking thoughts' as my Dad [RIP] used to say half quoting Wordsworth. Thanx btw, for your part of the heart centred energy here bw.

Let's Occupy Universal Human Rights FOR ALL and work for Engaged Participatory Democracies and seek new paradigms for allegedly intractable old conundrums.

Finally, to follow my comment at the very top of this thread, I append for consideration in due course :

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Boy, Freedland's article really did wear me down. Thanks, though, I guess, lolol. So many truths there. In the end, however, peace can only be even slightly possible between these two groups if the human rights violations end. So, yes Universal Human Rights for all people is essential, as you say. From there, maybe permanent peace can be negotiated. Respect. Love. Faith. Hope. All of these things are necessary to overcome a past between these two peoples that is riven with disrespect and fear.

And, congrats on your beautiful baby niece. She is one of the reasons we care about the future, n'est ce pas?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Freedland's article is indeed hard going but it does reward the close read that you obviously gave it and my apologies for the hard slog that it entailed as well my thanx for your timely and thoughtful reply. The article has its own crtique and axes to grind - but nevertheless, I did think that it embedded some good sense and implicit within the article was an allusion to the 'new paradigms' for which I try to search for and advocate as well as for 'Universal Human Rights', tho' Freedland doesn't actually use those words.

Hopefully without burdening you overly, I append a far shorter, punchier piece from someone who prima facie, may be considered to be some distance politically from the likes of many of us on the forum, yet who clearly has a thought provoking perspective of these matters :

Many thanx for your kind words re. my new baby niece & you're right, she's a reason for hope and to ...

respice, adspice, prospice ..~*~..

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Thanks for the Pat Buchanan piece. I have always found him to be an interesting guy. Libertarian that he is, I agree with him on some things strongly, such as anti-war, and then disagree strongly on things like the economy.

He is quite right in what he says in that article:

"But what of us? What do we have to show for decades of involvement in the Middle East?"

"Hillary Clinton.....was a bystander in brokering the truce. She is not even allowed to talk to Hamas. For we have designated Hamas a terrorist organization. Astonishing. What was Joe Stalin when Harry Truman talked with him at Potsdam? What was Nikita Khrushchev when Ike invited the “Butcher of Budapest” to Camp David? What was Chairman Mao when Richard Nixon toasted him in Beijing in 1972? We tie our own hands and wonder why we cannot succeed."

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

With the arrival of my new baby niece and recent events in Gaza, I've been thinking about the future and musing on, inter alia - 'why not equal rights for all' ? Reaching for an attempt to try to envision different paradigms and so thinking out loud with a ====#~~' in my hand, I ask you :

Why couldn’t we reconstitute Israel as a Multiethnic Secular Democracy with completely equal rights for all ? Why not simply erase the Green Line, incorporate the West Bank and Gaza, grant full and fair citizenship rights to all persons and truly live in peace.

You could say, then Israel would lose its “Jewish character”. I say that it could hardly do so when half the population is Jewish. Please meditate upon this: Why in this day and age, must you have a 'Jewish State' ? But you say, the Palestinians will never agree to single state. I'd say that a Multiethnic Secular State is so clearly the most equitable answer to move forward that it may well just come down then to whether the Palestinian people will accept the name “Israel” for the state they’ve always wanted. I think that they would under the proper circumstances.

You may say the Palestinians could be in the majority & would impose their will on Jews, controlling education, social policies, government spending, etc. This, I'd say, is a specific political disease that affects most countries in the world, but it most easily prevented by writing a proper constitution for a strictly limited government - the kind of government once envisioned by America’s founding fathers maybe but which alas, no longer exists in America.

Maybe we just need an explicit, well-written, libertarian socialist constitution that limits the government to protecting individual rights and property and then allows for full and free political association and for true democratic expression - one that does not allow the majority to force its will on any minority, including the smallest minority - The Individual. We need a constitution that :

  • Completely and eternally separates religion and Corporate Control from The State - education and state, charity and state, businesses and state, private behaviour and state - by enhanced democracy and free association within a libertarian socialist construct.

  • Prohibits the government from passing any law beyond those needed to define and protect freedom, property, the environment and innate, universal human and civil rights.

  • Allows all Israelis, Jews and non-Jews (Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Druze, Muslim, Samaritan et al), to associate or not associate with whomever they choose, to hire or fire whomever they chose, to educate their children as they chose - all within the framework of an appreciation of the simple notion of Universal Human Rights.

This 'New Israel' would combine all the best aspects of other relatively free and prosperous places but it would go far beyond them to a new kind of freedom and prosperity for the 21rst Century. It would become a model for all states in our increasingly global society.

'Naive, idealistic or utopian', I can take but folk have been bandying 'anti-semitic' around on the forum lately and I don't cower to that kind of intimidation. In future, minds will need to open and hearts will need to soften as the climate heats up around us whilst we're all still cooking on gas !!

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

I do not think you are naive, idealistic nor utopian. You are a humanitarian and your view is one I share. Why can't people who are different live in harmony with one another? Surely they can! They do it all over this good earth. You have laid out a wonderful plan for doing so and your argument is a tenable one.

Your comment is one of the best I have ever seen on this forum and it is in the absolute true spirit of Occupy Wall Street. Universal Human Rights are of the utmost importance and the word "universal" does not equivocate.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx for your encouraging, gracious and heart-centred words, bw & btw, from a perhaps unlikely source for me but in keeping with the subject and title of the forum-post, please further consider :

{Full Text} - As of late Friday the ceasefire in Gaza seems to be holding, if tentatively. While we should be pleased that this round of fighting appears temporarily on hold, we must realize that without changes in U.S. foreign policy it is only a matter of time before the killing begins again.

It feels like 2009 all over again which is the last time this kind of violence broke out in Gaza. At that time over 1400 Palestinians were killed of which just 235 were combatants. The Israelis lost 13 of which 10 were combatants. At that time I said of then-President Bush’s role in the conflict :

  • It’s our money and our weapons but I think we encouraged it. Certainly the President has said nothing to diminish it. As a matter of fact, he justifies it on moral grounds saying “Oh, they have a right to do this” without ever mentioning the tragedy of Gaza. To me, I look at it like a concentration camp.

The U.S. role has not changed under the Obama administration. The same mistakes continue, as journalist Glenn Greenwald said last week. For years now U.S. financial, military and diplomatic support of Israel has been the central enabling force driving this endless conflict. The bombs Israel drops on the Gazans, and the planes that they use to drop them, and the weapons they use to occupy the West Bank and protect settlements are paid for, in substantial part, by the U.S. taxpayer.

Last week, as the fighting raged, President Obama raced to express U.S. support for the Israeli side in a statement that perfectly exemplifies the tragic comedy of U.S. foreign policy. He said, “No country on earth would tolerate rockets raining down on its citizens from outside its borders. Considering that this president rains down missiles on Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan and numerous other countries on a daily basis, the statement was so hypocritical that it didn’t pass the laugh test, and it wasn’t funny.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton traveled to Tel Aviv to meet with Israeli Prime minister Netanyahu, but she refused to meet with the elected Palestinian leaders. Clinton said upon arrival in Israel, “America’s commitment to Israel’s security is rock-solid and unwavering.” Does this sound like an honest broker?

At the same time, Congress acted with similar ignobility when an unannounced resolution was brought to the House floor after the business of the week had been finished, and in less than 30 seconds the resolution was passed by unanimous consent without debate and without most representatives even having heard of it. The resolution H.Res. 813 was so one-sided it is not surprising they didn’t want anyone to have the chance to read and vote on it. Surely at least a handful of my colleagues would have objected to language like:

  • The House of Representatives expresses unwavering commitment to the security of the state of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state with secure borders.

U.S. foreign policy being so one-sided actually results in more loss of life and of security on both sides. Surely Israelis do not enjoy the threat of missiles from Gaza, nor do the Palestinians enjoy their Israeli-imposed inhumane conditions in Gaza.

As long as Israel can count on its destructive policies being underwritten by the U.S. taxpayer it can continue to engage in reckless behavior, and as long as the Palestinians feel the one-sided U.S. policy lined up against them, they will continue to resort to more and more deadly and desperate measures.

Continuing to rain down missiles on so many increasingly resentful nations, the U.S. is undermining rather than furthering its security. We are on a collision course with much of the rest of the world if we do not right our foreign policy. Ending interventionism in the Middle East and replacing it with friendship and even-handedness would be a welcome first step.

R.P.

~~~

There's a quickening to a reckoning in the air bw, as fickle human concerns preoccupy us and when we need all the love, light and logic we can muster for reasons too obvious to mention, as as a species, we all continue our frenzied extraction of ancient carbon locked away by 'mother earth' in her wisdom, for near instant return to the atmosphere & deal with the fallout.

We need new ways to look at old problems 'cause more of the same, as Einstein would've noted, is just madness. Here's to Universal Human Rights and Real Democracy as we 'struggleforfreedom' and await 'therising' towards a 'beautifulworld' for all on this Good Earth.

Sometimes I despair but mostly I have hope because as short sighted and selfish as we can be, we are capable of greatness when, we, meditate ~*~ up^on <3 Love.

amor vincit omnia ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Great article. I think it is a bit funny how Paul, staunch Austrian economist that he is, always goes back to the money, but nevertheless, however we get to peace is fine with me. And, yes, I agree with him that the U.S. should stop forcing it's tax payers to fund these wars.

Evidently, Obama said "No country on earth would tolerate rockets raining down on its citizens from outside its borders." Hmmm. Considering our drone attacks and that we fund the Israeli war machine, this is rather hypocritical, n'est ce pas?

And, "U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton traveled to Tel Aviv to meet with Israeli Prime minister Netanyahu, but she refused to meet with the elected Palestinian leaders. Clinton said upon arrival in Israel, “America’s commitment to Israel’s security is rock-solid and unwavering.” Does this sound like an honest broker?" Nope.

Have you ever seen www.antiwar.com ? Justin Raimondo founded it and is the editor. It's mainly libertarian but the anti-war efforts are outstanding.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Alas hypocrisy & lip-service are the order of the day as ignorance is the ...

"To know and to care are the only antidotes for ignorance and apathy."

This item (it's not an article as such!) is a passionate cris de coeur and I enjoyed reading it. I am aware of www.antiwar.com and it's in my bookmarks but it's been quite a while since I looked there. Thanx for the reminder bw.

pax vobis. ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Thanks. I loved it. So many great quotes there. And, it reminds me of what I was saying about intellectual laziness the other day. Apathy and ignorance, yep, we have a lot of that floating around.

This, just because it is so funny "Only a few very sensitive people will care whether or not I'm tired or what I'm tired of, or why. That makes me angry." LOL.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

“All over the place,” notes Noam Chomsky, “from the popular culture to the propaganda system, there is constant pressure to make people feel that they are helpless, that the only role they can have is to ratify decisions and to consume.” but love, light and logic are the antidotes to the fear, darkness & ignorance.

Balles' articulation of momentary, lonely rage and sad self-pity is funny because we can all relate and also take heart as he uses it to springboard onwards and upwards. Re. this thread, here's a short item and possibly a cause for hope from the 'Jerusalem Post' :

multum in parvo ...

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 year ago

Thanks for that link. Hope springs eternal, even for the most downtrodden.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 month ago

Queen Rania on Gaza. Powerful.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rania-al-abdullah/gaza-the-makings-of-a-mod_b_5615260.html

"The most disturbing dystopian narrative of our time is no work of fiction. It's a real place with real people.

It's Gaza. The most tragic place to live on earth."

All the people of Gaza want is what each one of us wants. The opportunity to live a normal life with dignity and security, and build a future in which their children can thrive, dream and fulfill their potential. They must be allowed to do this."

"Remaining silent in the face of this endless injustice makes our global community no better than the peanut-crunching crowd in the arena at the Hunger Games, oo-ing and aah-ing and shaking their heads at each new trial and each new death."

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 month ago

As Queen Rania does say : "Remaining silent in the face of this endless injustice makes our global community no better than the peanut-crunching crowd in the arena at the Hunger Games, oo-ing and aah-ing and shaking their heads at each new trial and each new death." & for some more elemental basic truths, please consider :

''What is your personal relationship with the state of Israel today? --- I am a citizen, but I am dissident, too. I love the country, but I object to the ideological regime on which the state is based as it racially discriminates against anyone who is not a Jew and half of the population this state controls today are not Jewish. Many of them are under constant danger of being ethnically cleansed and in the case of Gaza, of being killed.''

fiat justitia ...

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (20523) 1 month ago

"West Bank Rises"

"The uprising promises to be different from previous intifadas, partly because it comes in the wake of the Arab Spring, Occupy Wall Street and other mass protest movements around the globe. But the way in which the world engages with protest has also evolved, due to the advent of Twitter and cell phone video, which can focus attention on raw conflict in a way that bypasses the mainstream media. Today's march is being live tweeted at the hashtag #48kMarch."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/west-bank-rise_n_5619332.html

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28241) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

The UN votes to accept Palestine as an observer state - one step closer to full recognition.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Universal civil, democratic and human rights for all ~*~

pax et lux ; nunc et semper ; hic et ubique ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28241) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

So I pray.

[-] 2 points by Renneye (3749) 1 year ago

Such a great article! I'm certainly glad it didn't get 'pulled'. My post is long, but I feel it addresses a hurdle that we need to get past as a society if we are to move forward.

Indifference.

I'm going to suggest that indifference has been intentionally cultivated. It manifests through a myriad of techniques such as manipulation by media. By villianizing the victims, the oligarchs conjure public opinion as if by magic...they are very adept at it. Also taken advantage of by the ruling elite...if we are brutally honest with ourselves...is that part of human nature that can turn a blind eye when the perception is that something is not affecting us personally. Sadly, indifference is kept alive by (some)parents, and in some countries through schools, by teaching their kids to hate. And so it goes, round and round. Almost invariably, people just want to wash their hands of it. It is, I believe, how the oligarchs have managed to 'sell' most wars to the populace without too much public upheaval...at least in the beginning. Revolutions and rebellions of the people do eventually fight for what is right.

We are, at this time, war weary...and thankfully, the anti-war sentiment is growing.

Most Israeli and Palestinian people have wanted an end to the conflict and are perfectly willing to live amongst each other peacefully. So why then, do their governments not act on behalf of the will of the people? It is entirely possible that it is not beneficial for the governments of Israel or the US and possibly others, to not ever have peace between Israel and Palestine. In which case, it seems to me...we are asking the wrong questions.

As much as we all hope this is a genuine ceasefire...never forget or underestimate the psychopathic nature of the oligarchs' mind set. Top level governments and ruling elite are rarely in their positions to protect and take care of their own people. They are there to expand their own agenda, to become ever the bigger collectivists. This is why I feel that we will never have compassionate and peaceful global governments until it is firmly in the hands of 'the people'. We the masses, are the only ones who want genuine and lasting peace. Conflict is a 'tool' to the oligarchs...used as leverage to maneuver their interests. The sooner people realize that 'violent conflict' and 'war' rarely randomly errupt, the sooner we can ask the important questions. Questions that get to the heart of the matter. Perhaps the question shouldn't be; "Why can't Israel and Palestine work things out?". Maybe it should be; "Why do the governments, Israeli or otherwise, want perpetual conflict?"

When it is clear to just about anyone, that the US should not be meddling in Israeli politics, instead of asking; "Should the US government be giving financial, congressional and aggressive verbal support to Israel?"...perhaps it is better to ask; "WHY is the US government giving financial, congressional and aggressive verbal support to Israel?".

When we ask better questions, it changes the whole 'stage', and puts us in a better position to understand how we move forward to achieve our goal of stopping the greedy, murdering oligarchs, and fostering the peace we all desire and deserve. Changing the position of the questions also takes us from; asking from a victim's point of view...to that of problem solvers who can facilitate productive action, by first and foremost, retrieving 'real' answers that come from strategic questions that garner truth.

The propagation of indifference has been used by the ruling elite to proliferate society as a means by which to destroy 'compassion'...not just toward Israelis and Palestinians, or other people's that the oligarchs demonize-who live on the other side of the world-and we are led to believe we have nothing in common with...but to all of us. Right here in our own backyards...neighbor against neighbor.

Some more questions we ought to be asking;

~Why? ~

WHY does government & ruling elite want to divide and conquer;

~ men and women?

~ blacks and whites, or pit any other variation of skin colour/ethnicity/religion against each other for that matter?

~ pro life and pro choice?

~ liberals and conservatives?

~ rich and poor?

~ union people and non-union people?

~ LGBT people and straight people?

~ Why are they encouraging neighbors to squeal on each other?

~ Why are they encouraging the masses to think that activists, protesters and people who speak up against their government is extremist behaviour?

~ Why are they pitting military, police, TSA, Child (un)Protective Services and any number of authoritative services, against their fellow human beings, by abuse of power and brutalizing them? Why is this happening all over the world?

I'm also going to suggest that the reasons the government/ruling elite are pitting neighbor against neighbor, likely have to do with activities/agendas that are far removed from anything we are privy to, and nothing at all to do with the reasons they 'peddle' to us.

There are dozens more 'one-side-against-the-other' issues that can be listed here. Just pick your fight. They'd have us hurling hatred (or bullets) at each other forever. The government/ruling elite need conflict...and indifference is how they keep it in perpetuity.

Compassion has to be taken back from the oligarchs. They stole it from us...like a thief in the night.

Compassion comes easily for some. For those who are innately drawn to places like OWS to help make a difference, the graphic images we see every day on the alternative news of our fellow human beings(including children) getting slaughtered, make our hearts ache with compassion. We see these beautiful people who live and breathe, and love and want peace, and nurture their children... like all human beings. However, the vast majority of the busy and misled masses are deeply unaware of the sheer gravity of the oligarchs' indifference inducing techniques, and we must help them break free of this mind-numbing spell and recapture compassion so they too can see the similarities to their global family with an ease born out of the desire to share love and happiness.

One of the simplest ways to do this is to tell the people you strike up conversations with in your everyday life, how much more interesting and complete alternative news is compared to the 'fluff' on television, and perhaps include your favourite online news website. We don't need to preach and try to educate everyone we talk to. Experience shows people are overwhelmed and tune out when they're hit with a wall of info. Keep it light and simple. Little by little we will embolden and reclaim compassion, as we watch indifference wither and die...the world over.

Compassion comes from an intuitive love...and only by staying deeply devoted to the universal truth that love is the one and only constant - the only thing that can be the enduring strength from which we can build our society...can we then collectively become the loving humanity we yearn to be.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely' & 'divide & rule' is the age old play book used. Transparent Participatory Democracy, with an educated, engaged & enabled electorate is the best way. Thanx for your thoughtful and thought provoking comment and there is so much to consider there that it rewards a reread. I concur with much here & therefore, as an optimistic & rousing addendum, I append :

Further, almost as an aside :

Finally, touching on much of what you've written & even tho' you've probably seen it :

Essential viewing for all OWS sympathisers, supporters & fellow travellers, I believe.

Information dissemination is a key towards a new, better, shared tomorrow for us all.

"Compassion comes from an intuitive love...and only by staying deeply devoted to the universal truth that love is the one and only constant - the only thing that can be the enduring strength from which we can build our society...can we then collectively become the loving humanity we yearn to be." & I concur.

fiat lux ; fiat pax ; fiat justitia ...

[-] 3 points by Renneye (3749) 1 year ago

Indeed, "Information dissemination is a key towards a new, better, shared tomorrow for us all."

Thanks for the 'Ace' links, as usual!

The Paul Balles' piece is 'the mostest', and I agree with every quote.

"Are Canadians The 51st American State ?" - Well...yah! But, not something I've been able to tackle here in the past, so I'll leave it alone, lol!!. 'North American Union' anyone?! There are many who can speak to this in a more roundabout way, far better than I.

"Manufacturing Consent", I will have to say is an exceptional piece that I had not seen before. So thanks for the intro. Chomsky says something that I have thought many times. That there are so many regular people that exhibit 'remarkable creativity'. I say...We are brilliant! I am continually amazed by humanity's exceptionalism...and see many examples of how 'we the people' would be absolutely fine without big government. It has become very clear to me that we would rise to the occasion and excel in consciousness as a capable and loving human race. And quite frankly...I think this scares the hell out of the oligarchs. This is one of the top reasons for the boot on our necks. We threaten their way of life.

We must, Must, MUST somehow take back some type of mass media. This IS key. But how, is the question. This should be one of the top three priorities/demands of OWS.

Earlier on, I asked the forum if they thought that Americans would be willing to pay $1 per day to create a television channel...the 'People's Network' to ensure transparent reporting. The overwhelming consensus was 'yes!'. Naive? Perhaps. I know how simplistic this sounds, and the hurdles would be immense. However, bigger things have started from a kernel of thought. The infrastructure is already there.

As we are discussing this matter of 'information dissemination' and getting truth into the mainstream media...I happened to see an interesting interview today on RTnews, where Abby Martin speaks with William Blum on exactly this subject. Blum's interview starts at around 16:00 min...but, Abby's interview with Jimmy Carter in Haiti at the beginning of the clip is also quite refreshing.

"William Blum, historian and author of ‘America’s Deadliest Export: Democracy’ speaking about the history of US interventionism around the world and the brainwashing of America."

http://rt.com/programs/breaking-set-summary/carter-deadliest-export-democracy/

~ Essays by William Blum;

http://killinghope.org/

Thanks again...for the education.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"Manufacturing Consent" [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci_1Ghk0CIc ] is really essential OWS viewing / reading I'd posit and thanx for your comment, as 'MC' is well worth any time spent in perusal.

Thus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent:_The_Political_Economy_of_the_Mass_Media

I too liked Balles' piece and also concur that the less said about the piece about the Canada article the better - for now! Finally, I'd watched Abby Martin's "Breaking The Set" show & listened to Jimmy Carter with interest and with regard to the inestimable William Blum, I append a pdf. of his world famous book, "Killing Hope", which is the definitive read on "U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" :

Finally and not quite as an aside, I happened to read the thread after your recent post about 'Canadian Cancer Cure' and given the contents therein, I would simply and sincerely like to extend my solidarity and best wishes to you and yours.

constantia et virtute ...

[-] 3 points by Renneye (3749) 1 year ago

I've often wondered if humanity will ever truly know the history that has been kept from us.

We are indebted to William Blum for his decades long research and for helping to pave the way to a considerable amount of that truth.

Thanks for the link to Blum's book "Killing Hope". Though after reading the chapter titles...I know this book will be a little dark for me. But alas, there is also the excitement of my unyielding need to arrive at the truth...and so...like a moth to a flame...I will have to read it.

Thank you, for your genuine solidarity and kindhearted best wishes...and with that, I'd like to reciprocate and send my congratulations on your new baby niece. Mellifluous, is the news, and the sweet sound of a newborn child.

we all need strength now

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Somewhat belatedly & with due contrition, may I express my thanx for your kind words. Wm. Blum's book ( http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/BLUMkillinghope.pdf ) is a 'dark enlightenment' which is sometimes untimely but always necessary, in the long term when seen in the round. Perhaps in a similar vein, I also append :

More in keeping with the subject of this post and thread :

consilio et animis ...

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (28241) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

On this Day of Thanks Giving In The USA Today:

Let us give thanks for the cease fire between the IDF and Hamas.

Let us pray for peace. For these people in Gaza and in Israel. And more - For All of The People of The World.

Let us pray that the relief effort for the civilians in Gaza goes forward with all good benefit to the people of Gaza.

May the peace keepers provide the materials and goods of a healthy society and not smuggle in arms.

May the peacekeepers actually work to bring peace and prosperity to the region.

The Arab Spring happened for a reason - government/ruling class abuse of the people - ALL of the People.

May the People going forward put an end to the greedy and intolerant power hungry fanatics in this region - May this happen World wide.

Let us also give thanks - That - The People of the world - Are Waking Up - And Are Beginning to Unite Together In Support Of A Healthy World For All.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Agreed. Good Karma for the peaceful of the world.

And Happy thanksgiving DK.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (28241) from Coon Rapids, MN 1 year ago

To You and Yours as well. Good karma - Good Wish.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 1 year ago

Gobble, gobble.

[-] 2 points by Ache4Change (3280) 1 year ago

A useful link on Gaza for you - http://www.nationofchange.org/gaza-it-s-occupation-stupid-1353572725 and as Amy Goodman says - 'The answer is simple, and increases the chances of security on all sides: End the occupation.'

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

"So this "both-sides-are-hideous" mentality is not what drives the actions of the US government. Quite the contrary: the US government is as partisan and loyal a supporter of one side of this conflict as one can possibly be. So if people want to rail against anyone who has convictions about one side or the other - Pierce: "The only people who make me more ill than the two active sides in this endless slaughter are the people far from the killing grounds who are so very goddamn sure they know what to do . . . I hate the cheering squads over here today" - then the place to begin is with the US government, the Obama administration, whose unstinting, multi-faceted support for and enabling of Israel is central to all of this."

This passage reminds me a lot of people who rail against the "two party" system without recognizing how terrible the GOP is.

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

So you're trying to say the republicans are like Israel and the democrats are like Palestine?

You're distracting from the real issue at hand.

Did you read the article?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

just an honest comment not comparing or equating the two, that's a straw-man, when I got to the part "both sides are hideous" seemed I had heard that before.

The way it relates to Greenwald's point here is his point is that people who simply say a pox on both their houses without examining the dynamics involved are more a part of the problem than part of the solution, the same is true for those that say there is little difference between the Ds and the Rs they are more a part of the problem as they fail to examine the situation closely and honestly

[-] 2 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Reread the article. The whole thing.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

"Esquire's Charles Pierce, one of the nation's best political writers, provided a classic case of this mindset yesterday in his post entitled "There Is No Side Worth Taking In Gaza". The crux: "I would like to have an opinion on this continual bloodletting that didn't sound banal but, goddammit, I'm out of them. I am thoroughly sick of both sides here." One encounters a version of this mentality with increasing frequency each day that the violence escalates.

This temptation is genuinely understandable. Few things are more depressing than paying attention to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict."

or the R v D bullshit, the more I read the more similarities I find between the a pox on both their houses groups....I find people who are sick and tired of that all the time

[-] 1 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

But people who think the two party system is corrupt aren't doing nothing about it. Glenn is talking about the "do-nothing" attitude. You are way off in your comparison.

Most people who dislike the 2 party system are protesting, speaking out against corruption, and work for reform. Which is 100% different than doing nothing. Your comparison is party politics as usual. Divide and conquer is their game.

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

". . . I hate the cheering squads over here today" "

making noise while taking ineffective actions (like allowing the GOP to win) harms many causes...

[-] 3 points by richardkentgates (3269) from Fort Walton Beach, FL 1 year ago

LMAO, the implication that this round of voting is equivalent to action is absurd. Maybe if one side was bought and the other not. But that just isn't the case. Clinton repealed GS, Obama suspends Habeas Corpus. The list of bipartisan offenses is HUGE.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

so is the list of atrocities committed by the Israelis and Palestinians, the point the writer is making is that in spite of that one must still look deeper to find the real problems….

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

if only we could find leaders that don't eat, shit and breath air....

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I see what you mean after all, "both-sides-are-hideous" .....

[-] 0 points by TrevorMnemonic (5827) 1 year ago

Distract distract distract.

Look how you've turned this into a pro-democrat rally! Go you!!! Completely distract from real issues and the point at hand!

What are your thoughts on the US governments role in regards to the original post?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (6883) from Phoenix, AZ 1 year ago

I see what you mean after all, "both-sides-are-hideous" .....

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 8 months ago

Video here

and here

It's all about the truth.

Hijacking the word apartheid in an attempt to alter the definition simply cheapens it.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

Why are you minded that Right-wing, Christian Fundamentalists are ''all about the truth'' ?! Lapsed and estranged from The Latter Day Saints' aristocracy - have you now discovered new affiliations ?!! A wee word of quiet advice in your 'shell like' - beware any and all who claim unique access to ''the truth'' !!!

multum in parvo et cave ...

[+] -5 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Typical conspiracy theory type argumentation. The ad hominem in this case. Attack the proposer. His arguments are worthless because he is religious. Typical of a logical fallacy addict. Sad indeed. Comparing apartheid to the Israel problems is ridiculous. It doesn't help at all. Two different animals. You would be much better off analyzing the situation in Israel for what is is. That takes effort. Instead, you lazily compare it to apartheid.... job done. Intellectual shortcuts is your hobby.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

TCH, Tch, tch TrashyManqué & it is revealing that you don't click the link or come at me on the more substantively argued points therein ! You were an effing useless prick yesterday ; are so today - and so will be tomorrow too !! 'Religious Fundamentalism' btw, is - The Definitive ''logical fallacy'' but that's of no concern to you - as you continue with your usual 'illogical fellatio' but jart's diagnosis of you still applies & if u too need to believe that all Jews need to go to Israel before Jesus can return, then be my guest I!!

temet nosce ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

new definitions and practices are open to modifications

[+] -5 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Meh, jart this jart that. She works for Google, one of the biggest companies in US who work with the NSA and who just bought Boston Dynamics a company that creates military robots. It's kind of like an animal activist who would work for a rare fur coat company. There are good reasons the NYCGA distanced itself from this forum. Anyways, she doesn't have time for Occupy now that she works for the company that does no evil.

[-] 2 points by grapes (2900) 8 months ago

Google has some record of resisting government incursions into its users' private data but the fact that Google holds so much information scares me. Electronic information can truly shoot around the world fast, recognizing no border and anyone can intercept it. Some can even force Google to hand the data over by court orders.

Jart has record of working for OWS so that counts for something. Things can change with both Google and jart for sure but drastic changes tend to be rare and infrequent. Trust and verify and leave no so-called incriminating evidence behind.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

i was surprised to see the military pie for drones is quite high

[Removed]

[+] -5 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Another logical fallacy. Try to dismiss by attacking the proposer, concerned troll. Yada yada. Well, the concern is real. Censorship is a real concern, call it concerned trolling all you want. In this case also. I'm the first to hate religious fundamentalism. Actually, I hate all religious type thinking because it's just like conspiracy theory type thinking. Based on fantasy and cognitive bias, not based on evidence. The situation in Israel has nothing to do with apartheid. It's an entirely other problem and does not benefit from being compared to something it is not. In fact, it is a religious problem, not one of race.

It's a tragedy that people like you use logical fallacies instead of proper argumentation. You hide being logical fallacies and censorship. You don't have the guts to debate properly. To debate the ideas instead of the proposer. Censoring others in order to "win" arguments and get popular support is weak. Real men debate properly and don't care what others think. They only care about properly supporting their ideas.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

Specious double-talk from TrashyTroll ! You don't warrant my engagement and I have seldom done so before so I don't intend to start bad habits now !! However, I may just contemplate it IF & when you can address yourself to the substantive case that I made [ http://occupywallst.org/forum/mandela-legislator-arabs-misappropriate-apartheid-/#comment-1015042 ] - as opposed to the much more rough and tumble barbed comment to 'GirlFriday' above, where you have now chosen to insinuate yourself, like the slimey little energy-vampire, troll, pipsqueak that you are !!!

nosce te ipsum ...

[+] -6 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Again, more logical fallacies. Name calling, insults, etc... The usual tools of your neighbourhood conspiracy theorist. Always attack the proposer. Never the ideas. No double track on my part. I say it as it is.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 8 months ago

Naah, Trashy, you're the feckin' eedjut who made a choice to try to fake an argument here because you didn't have the balls, facts or gumption to address yourself to the substantive case I made !!! You'll strive to create unsubstantiated contrarian points - simply for the sake of it because THAT is your 'm.o' here !! You have NO ideas, so piss off now & go do your faux sympathy and 'Concern Trolling', for babies etc. :

gnothi seauton ...

[+] -6 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Fake argument? Sorry, but my argument was very real. I clearly stated it. If all you have to retort is saying that it is fake somehow, well, sorry, but that is a weak counter-argument. Actually, it's not even a counter-argument. Just a weak fallacy. We can let the readers decide. Again, you fail at providing something solid. It's always the weakest link with you. Attack the proposer, now say that his argument is fake. I don't even know what fake argument means. At least I provided an argument for my case, unlike you who only provides logical fallacies.

I guess I could do like you, but that would be boring. I could use logical fallacies say things like shadz66 = jack/jim etc... What does that even accomplish? Nothing but make you look like a silly conspiracy theorist. You should stick to serious discussion using proper arguments and evidence for your claims. It's just too easy and boring to use logical fallacies and other conspiracy theory mumbo jumbo.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

I believe the speaker is more interested in making nations aware of South African problems

[-] -3 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Perhaps, and I do agree. Nonetheless, even though this is probably true, even though he is religious, even though etc.... The fact remains that it's always dangerous to compare situations of the sort. It's like people comparing Bush to Nazis. Conspiracy theory type analysis. It leads to nowhere except more confusion. The apartheid was a complicated situation with its particular problems stemming from a particular history. The problems in Israel are also very complex with a a complex history. But, they are two different problems. Two very different problems. Only a cursory surface analysis makes them seem similar, and that is what is dangerous with these types of comparison. They reduce the problems to simplistic problematics. When you start digging deeper, when you start making a really interesting analysis of each problem, then you realize they are two distinct and separate animals. That's when understanding can really begin. Enough of this reductionism conspiracy theorists teach us. It's useless.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

Bush justifies violent actions by claiming evil is real

[+] -4 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Indeed. Your point? Do you mean anyone who justifies violent actions by claiming evil is real should be compared to Nazis? If so, please elaborate as to why.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 8 months ago

Godwin's Law?

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago
[-] -3 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Meh, sometimes it is useful to talk about the Nazis. I used it in a legitimate way to support an argument. Do you have a counter-argument? Or just this mention of Godwin's Law which is just a red herring really.

In any case, Godwin's Law is a bit of a dud don't you think? It states that given enough time, any forum discussion will mention the Nazis or Hitler at one point. If you think about it, given enough time, any forum discussion will mention anything. It's just a rehashing of the monkeys typing every and any novel given enough time. Not that interesting. Remarking Godwin's Law is just as lame as bringing up the Nazis all the time. It's old news.

Here are a few forum laws to think about.

Thashy's Law #1: Given enough time, shooz will bring up ALEC in every thread in which he participates, and this will happen faster than Godwin's Law.

Thrashy's Law #2: Given enough time, GirlFriday will bring up something to do with asses in every thread in which she participates, and this will happen faster than Godwin's Law.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 8 months ago

Third law; you have more ID's than anyone on this board.

How did things pan out with your own forum?

[+] -5 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

I'd love to have one ID, unfortunately, censorship happy autocratic moderation makes that impossible. Oh well, it doesn't really matter since people know it's me from my writing style. I don't try to hide. I come here to discuss issues seriously, but then people like you and others just throw logical fallacies in the way. Multiple IDs, Godwin's Law, troll, etc... That kind of thing. It's OK. I don't mind. I still like to come and make my point of view known. There are some people here who care for real discussion. Who knows, perhaps someone will talk about the points I raised concerning the comparison between apartheid and the problems in Israel. If not, at least some might read them. If not even that, than at least I got a chance to practice writing.

As for the forum, I'm design the software at the moment. Quite interesting. I don't really think there's anything like it, at least I haven't seen anything of the sort.

It's designed to be run without moderators. A forum completely based on anarchy. Users have detailed control for personal moderation. You can hide posts or comments by keyword(s), author, subject(s). You can follow subject(s) or author(s). In such a case, you get notices for their recent activities. For example, you could follow shadz66 and easily see what he recently posted or commented on. Or follow keyword(s) like GMO etc... You can also adopt the moderation settings of other users. Let's say you trust me or someone else, you could adopt their settings. This way, users can create moderation groups for themselves. Four users who all trust each other could all inherit their settings so that if one blocks a spam comment, it's block for all of them.

You can also create private postings that are only seen by the users of your choice.

Basically each user can control what they see on the forum with a high level of precision, and can also control who will see what they post with a high level of precision. The idea is to give everyone equal footing, make it so no one has power over others, but also give everyone the most possible individual power to read and write what they want.

The obvious problem is the front of the site, that is, what users who are not logged in can see. For this, the system adopts an average of what the users have set. For example, if 80% of users block the word "porn", then the front page will have this blocked. Once you create a user and log in you can see everything the way you want, either highly moderated with your own settings, moderated from the settings of others, a combination of both, or not moderate at all. You have the power.

I want to release the software open-source. Anyone will be able to download the software and install it on their servers of choice. If demand is high enough, I might also offer hosted solutions.

Unfortunately, it's a hobby project at this point. I need to earn a living and real work is taking most of my time. I can't give an ETA at this time.

[-] 0 points by Builder (4202) 8 months ago

Good luck with that.

Looks like a coder's nightmare though.

[Removed]

[-] -3 points by jennifer (-67) from Allentown, PA 8 months ago

Thanks. No, it's rather enjoyable to code. The reason I like coding is because I love problem solving. I like finding solutions to tricky problems. But really, it's not that hard. The hardest aspect is making sure the database is setup in an efficient way so that the system can scale and remain quite fast. I'm in the process of exploring various ways of viewing the forum.

One feature I added this week is the ability for a user to bookmark a particular thread or posting. It's an automated way to save permalinks. Each user has a library where he can store links to threads, comments, posting, etc... This library can be organized rather nicely with keywords, and also searched easily. You can then share all your library or parts of it with other users. Combine that with powerful search tools for the forum, and it because really easy to keep track of important past discussions.

I also have a privacy feature which lets you destroy anything you did in the past. Not fake Facebook type stuff that just hides your posts, but keeps then in the database. Real deletion. I think people should be allowed to destroy what they write if they so wish, even if it destroys the continuity of a thread.

Big project, but really fun to do.

Done well, I think it could attract a lot of people. Hiring moderators is expensive and the job is tedious and not very rewarding. Systems like Facebook and Twitter have shown us that moderators aren't really needed. Facebook is not invaded by porn and spam. When people aren't banned, they user one ID and generally behave themselves quite well. Plus, by giving people the power to only post to who they want like in Facebook, people who spam are discouraged of doing that.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 8 months ago

yes thanks

[-] -3 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

In our recent elections, it would be very hard to come up with a more significant reason for the republican losses than the fact that they told the truth about themselves.
Why can’t we also learn the truth from what the “Palestinians” say about the “Palestinian people” ?
: On March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with
Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.


”The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.
Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.

“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of “Palestine”, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.”


A provocative story? It’s more than that. It is the truth.
Truth does not change. Truth is truth.
If something was true 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, it is still true today.
And the truth is that only 30 years ago, there was very little confusion on this issue of Palestine.
You might remember the late Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir making the bold political statement:
“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people.” The statement has been a source of ridicule and derision by Arab propagandists ever since. They love to talk about Golda Meir’s “racism.” They love to suggest she was in historical denial. They love to say her statement is patently false – an intentional lie, a strategic deception – but is source from a PLO leader!

What they don’t like to talk about, however, are the very similar statements made by Yasser Arafat and his inner circle of political leadership years after Meir had told the truth –
that there is no distinct Palestinian cultural or national identity.


Pretty clear, isn’t it? It’s even more specific than Golda Meir’s statement. And it is hardly the only such statement of its kind. Arafat himself made a very definitive and unequivocal statement along these lines as late as 1993.
It demonstrates conclusively that the Palestinian nationhood argument is the real strategic deception – one geared to set up the destruction of Israel.


On the same day Arafat ( who was born in Cairo ) signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, Arafat stated:
“Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel.”


No matter how many people delude themselves that the aspirations for Palestinian statehood are genuine and the key to peace in the Middle East, they are still deceiving themselves. In the history of the world, Palestine has never existed as a nation. The region known as Palestine was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their ancestral homeland.
It was never ruled by Arabs as a separate nation.
Why now has it become such a critical priority?
The answer is because of a massive deception campaign and relentless terrorism over 40 years.
Golda Meir was telling the truth. Her statement is validated by the truth of history and by the candid, but not widely circulated, pronouncements of Arafat and his lieutenants.
Israel and the West must not surrender to terrorism by granting the killers just what they want – a public relations triumph and a strategic victory. It’s not too late to say no to terrorism. It’s not too late to say no to another Arab terror state to launch attacks at the only Jewish state. It’s not too late to tell the truth about Palestine.
……………………………………………. by Joseph Farah


If you are afraid to believe Farah & Muhsein & Arafat
WATCH WITH YOUR OWN EYES


PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_818090&feature=iv&src_vid=HRA0NKQ0k6E&v=9jOW9EzMiWc


PALESTINE & THE QURAN ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9CauJP4Pg


MUSLIMS & JEWS & NAZIS ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&NR=1&feature=endscreen


THE CARTOONS ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrq76I1M3CM&NR=1&feature=endscreen


THE HISTORY OF THE LAND & TWO STATES ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BtQgTGOI4&feature=endscreen&NR=1



▬►Why didn’t the PLO accept any of the MANY two state solutions proposed by Israel & America in the last few decades?
▬►If the Arab nations were interested in peace or simply aiding their brethren ,
they would support the West Bank as part of Jordan & Gaza as part of Egypt
( as it was occupied by Egypt 1948-1967 ).
▬►And they would be sending food to Gaza in stead of guns & rockets.
▬►If the Gazan militants were really fighting for the Gazan people,
they would not launch their rockets from civilian neighborhoods.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Hey 'dad' does 'ben' know that you're spamming this incessantly ? Is this what's termed hasbara ?

If it is, you're doing a piss poor job. Change tack a little & stop trying to cudgel people with all this.

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

thanks for your sincere anti-semetic anti-Israel advice
based on blindness or stupidity or fear
of watching a few videos and trying to formulate a reply

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

"ANTI-SEMETIC" ?!!! WTF ?!! On what grounds have you called me - THAT ?!

Have you actually got the spine, balls or moral courage to resolve my real quandary ?!!

Equating opposition to the present extremist Israeli regime to antisemitism is just complete BS !!!

I became the proud uncle to a beautiful baby girl today and this is my first comment since I got the great news, so you are very lucky that I am both in a very good mood and that I do not really have the time to obliterate your propaganda & your attempt to intimidate me with baseless accusations of abject racism shows your extremely poor judgement. Whether you've the backbone to answer me or not, you have not heard the last on this matter ! I promise you that !! Me and you 'bensdad', we just got started !!!

multum in parvo ...

[-] -2 points by mideast (506) 1 year ago

No sane person - who knows the history of the region could base that opinion without anti-semitism.
In stead of lashing out, I suggest that you watch any three of these videos and prove to me with ANY evidence that it is historically inaccurate:


Are you afraid to believe Farah & Muhsein & Arafat ?
WATCH WITH YOUR OWN EYES


PALESTINIAN PEOPLE ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_818090&feature=iv&src_vid=HRA0NKQ0k6E&v=9jOW9EzMiWc


PALESTINE & THE QURAN ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU9CauJP4Pg


MUSLIMS & JEWS & NAZIS ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&NR=1&feature=endscreen


THE CARTOONS ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrq76I1M3CM&NR=1&feature=endscreen


THE HISTORY OF THE LAND & TWO STATES ▬►
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5BtQgTGOI4&feature=endscreen&NR=1


[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

You alluded to questions about "anti-semitism" and "sanity" & I'm the one "lashing out"?!!! Your version of reality and projections of motive, really speak for themselves here !! You just continue to keep plying the cheap, prejudiced, vulgar propaganda and I'll reply with scholarship & it won't be, "lashing out" - it'll just be dispassionately batting you out of the ball park, as you're clearly a wannabe bully & actual bigot.

Thus, I refer you to Prof. Shlomo Sand ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shlomo_Sand ) & his famous book:

Edit #1 : Please note that all the above links worked at time of posting but are now corrupted, so I append the actual book below - in its entirety :

I don't feel the need to "prove" anything to you as I suspect that you have a very biased and limited perspective on 'proof' ; 'history' ;"evidence" or 'accuracy', so I'll leave others to gauge the tone and content here. Remember - your spamming hateful crap on this forum is not without some karmic consequence. Finally, just one question - do you believe in 'Universal Human Rights' or not ?

Edit #2 : http://inventionofthejewishpeople.com/ now restored (11th Dec.'12) .

ad iudicium ...

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 1 year ago

Thanx for this bollocks, without which I would have pulled this forum-posted article by Glenn Greenwald 'cause I thought (wrongly, as it turns out) that it was a bit too much for any sensitive 'US ThanxGivers' !!

verum ex absurdo ...