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Forum Post: printing more money is the answer

Posted 10 months ago on Dec. 23, 2013, 7:42 a.m. EST by flip (7045)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Bits and Barbarism By PAUL KRUGMAN This is a tale of three money pits. It’s also a tale of monetary regress — of the strange determination of many people to turn the clock back on centuries of progress.

The first money pit is an actual pit — the Porgera open-pit gold mine in Papua New Guinea, one of the world’s top producers. The mine has a terrible reputation for both human rights abuses (rapes, beatings and killings by security personnel) and environmental damage (vast quantities of potentially toxic tailings dumped into a nearby river). But gold prices, while down from their recent peak, are still three times what they were a decade ago, so dig they must.

The second money pit is a lot stranger: the Bitcoin mine in Reykjanesbaer, Iceland. Bitcoin is a digital currency that has value because ... well, it’s hard to say exactly why, but for the time being at least people are willing to buy it because they believe other people will be willing to buy it. It is, by design, a kind of virtual gold. And like gold, it can be mined: you can create new bitcoins, but only by solving very complex mathematical problems that require both a lot of computing power and a lot of electricity to run the computers.

Hence the location in Iceland, which has cheap electricity from hydropower and an abundance of cold air to cool those furiously churning machines. Even so, a lot of real resources are being used to create virtual objects with no clear use.

The third money pit is hypothetical. Back in 1936 the economist John Maynard Keynes argued that increased government spending was needed to restore full employment. But then, as now, there was strong political resistance to any such proposal. So Keynes whimsically suggested an alternative: have the government bury bottles full of cash in disused coal mines, and let the private sector spend its own money to dig the cash back up. It would be better, he agreed, to have the government build roads, ports and other useful things — but even perfectly useless spending would give the economy a much-needed boost.

Clever stuff — but Keynes wasn’t finished. He went on to point out that the real-life activity of gold mining was a lot like his thought experiment. Gold miners were, after all, going to great lengths to dig cash out of the ground, even though unlimited amounts of cash could be created at essentially no cost with the printing press. And no sooner was gold dug up than much of it was buried again, in places like the gold vault of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, where hundreds of thousands of gold bars sit, doing nothing in particular.

Keynes would, I think, have been sardonically amused to learn how little has changed in the past three generations. Public spending to fight unemployment is still anathema; miners are still spoiling the landscape to add to idle hoards of gold. (Keynes dubbed the gold standard a “barbarous relic.”) Bitcoin just adds to the joke. Gold, after all, has at least some real uses, e.g., to fill cavities; but now we’re burning up resources to create “virtual gold” that consists of nothing but strings of digits.

I suspect, however, that Adam Smith would have been dismayed.

Smith is often treated as a conservative patron saint, and he did indeed make the original case for free markets. It’s less often mentioned, however, that he also argued strongly for bank regulation — and that he offered a classic paean to the virtues of paper currency. Money, he understood, was a way to facilitate commerce, not a source of national prosperity — and paper money, he argued, allowed commerce to proceed without tying up much of a nation’s wealth in a “dead stock” of silver and gold.

So why are we tearing up the highlands of Papua New Guinea to add to our dead stock of gold and, even more bizarrely, running powerful computers 24/7 to add to a dead stock of digits?

Talk to gold bugs and they’ll tell you that paper money comes from governments, which can’t be trusted not to debase their currencies. The odd thing, however, is that for all the talk of currency debasement, such debasement is getting very hard to find. It’s not just that after years of dire warnings about runaway inflation, inflation in advanced countries is clearly too low, not too high. Even if you take a global perspective, episodes of really high inflation have become rare. Still, hyperinflation hype springs eternal.

Bitcoin seems to derive its appeal from more or less the same sources, plus the added sense that it’s high-tech and algorithmic, so it must be the wave of the future.

But don’t let the fancy trappings fool you: What’s really happening is a determined march to the days when money meant stuff you could jingle in your purse. In tropics and tundra alike, we are for some reason digging our way back to the 17th century.

149 Comments

149 Comments


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[-] 3 points by puff6964 (-33) 9 months ago

We must once again be a nation of builders. At the end of World War II, returning GI’s were faced with a bleak job market. Our federal government anticipated their plight and, in order to shrink number of excess workers, offered the "GI bill. " This insight allowed millions, who would otherwise lack adequate financial resources, to attend college. This investment bred a generation of entrepreneurs, engineers, intellectuals, and scientists. The investment was returned tenfold. We are once again faced with a crisis that has left millions of Americans without gainful employment and unqualified for a transitioning economy. Our federal government should immediately take measures to shrink the surplus of workers in our economy. There’s never been a better time in history to be in school. The job market is bleak and our skill sets need improvement. A national endowment should be created to fund what our country needs most; engineers who understand business. Scholarships, grants, and generous financial aid should be granted to those who will participate in approved programs. The net effect will be a new generation of experts proficient in science and in the business opportunities of the future.

A wise investment in our future will occur while abating, somewhat, the plight of the unemployed

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21390) 9 months ago

You are talking about improving our infrastructure here, which is a good idea, and would create jobs, true.

Are you the same puff from back in the early days?

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 months ago

we should improve infra structure for ourselves

not in a demented to put people to work

leisure is necessary for any creative/inventive effort

[-] 2 points by flip (7045) 9 months ago

I agree completely - there is also a looming problem (among many) of resource scarcity - we are running out of oil and most of the raw materials our society is built upon. preparing for that with solar, wind and the infrastructure the future requires is crucial. lots that can and must be done but the ruling elite does not agree so now what?

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[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

We are once again faced with a crisis that has left millions of Americans without gainful employment and unqualified for a transitioning economy.


You have a plethora of highly educated people. There is no STEM shortage. The jobs have been sent overseas.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

The jobs have been sent overseas.

YEP and jobs that remain here are being given to guest workers to go around domestic job requirements = slave wages paid to the foreign scab (?)

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

And then they can be trained and sent back to their countries of origin and open up the same businesses there. Yay H1B Visa.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

The More You Know..............

SCREWED

This Has Been A Public Service Announcement....................

If this had not been a tes........................

Shit - IT IS NOT A TEST

We R Being Royally SCREWED AND HAVE BEEN FOR A VERY LONG TIME

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

Here is the thing that I don't get. I don't get how it is that people cannot manage to confront Bill Gates and just ask, "Why did you fuck the American people?"

It's like............because he might drop some cash your way.

He seems like a semi reasonable man. He speaks coherently. He doesn't foam at the mouth-that I have ever seen. Somebody needs to ask him........WHY DID YOU LIE AND WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO LIE?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

Here is the thing that I don't get. I don't get how it is that people cannot manage to confront Bill Gates and just ask, "Why did you fuck the American people?"

Brain wash insanity - everyone expects to win the lottery.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

Or bathe in his light?

The question needs to be asked and it shouldn't be done in a gotcha moment for tv celebrity clown. Why are you destroying the wages of these highly educated people? Why are you destroying the dreams of our children?

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

Or bathe in his light?

Worship the EVIL One ????????????

[-] 2 points by grapes (3261) 9 months ago

A while back, there was even the call for Jamie Dimon, the President and CEO of J.P. Morgan Chase, to become the next U.S. Secretary of the Treasury because he was the "Last Man Standing." With the role of Chase starting the snowball rolling to culminate in the Great Recession, that fact testifies to the utter stupidity of the U.S. populace which bows to the "neon gods they made." Last I looked, the neon god was fined $13,000,000,000 or so, not to mention that the "Last Man Standing" was eating dust from the London Whale scandal.

On the altar of the neon gods were the livelihoods of countless people and their crushed remains and yet "people bowed and prayed" to it. Bill Gates is just another such demigod of confusion, of the "blue screen of death" and security timed bomb (having given the source code of Windows OS to the China State for business entry). Did we or did we not have our "digital Pearl Harbor" already? Oh, we are SO confused - we know that AND we know that NOT (all symptoms of our multinationals successfully fending off our government's initiative to upgrade their corporate infrastructures to protect against foreign cyberattacks[corporatocracy at work again to keep us all as the naked fools]).

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

As long as money is worshiped this world is truly FUCKED.

[-] 2 points by grapes (3261) 9 months ago

Not just that - it is preparing for the next round of pogo-dicking golf by the sexually frustrated "eeeeel-ite-s." How nauseating it is!

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

Truly thoroughly nauseating. "THEY" the eel-ite are the High Priests of Mammon - the slimy bastards.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

That's what it is looking like.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

Takes all kinds - mental masochists - HUH

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

Something like that.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

Mixed with mental midget wannabees? Evil does not necessarily have to be intelligent.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

The banality of evil.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (26450) from Coon Rapids, MN 9 months ago

triteness · predictability · ordinariness · dullness · triviality · facileness

Ya plenty of descriptors.

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[-] 2 points by grapes (3261) 9 months ago

Bill Gates sold his soul a long time ago to the Dark Side but that bargain gave him the money to head up his foundation doing the so-called good deeds benefiting the Dark People. It will complete his 18-hole golf game pogo-dicking the U.S.

[-] 2 points by Revy89 (4) 9 months ago

Capitalism is stuck in a dead end. Keynesian policies will change this as little as the neoliberal ones do. The reasons for this are found at the source of this crisis, the stagflationary period of the 1970s and early 80s, which caused neoliberal policies to take off in the first place. Deficit spending can only cause inflationary bubbles at this stage, because a threshold has been crossed in the developement of capitalism: with the microtechnological revolution, more labor has been rendered obsolete than is needed for the new product innovations, hence the overall ratio of value decreases and the profit rate dwindles - which cause capital to flee into fictive growth on financial markets. With the known consequences.

A good introduction is found here: http://concrete.blogsport.eu/2013/08/24/permanent-crisis/

[-] 1 points by flip (7045) 9 months ago

i don't agree with your assumptions - you seem to assume some sort of business as usual for the world economy. my understanding is that we are entering a completely new era (I hope to wrong on this). read Jeremy grantham "time to wake up investors." the world is running out of all the resources needed to run our modern world. Keynesian spending could and should prepare us for a new type of world. retrofitting homes for conservation - ramping up alternative energy and a smart grid - rebuilding water and transportation infrastructure. leeb's "game over" is another good place to start. you also seem to assume that we must play by todays rules - those made up since the late 70's. capital flight is easily stopped - check out south korea's laws until that big shit bill Clinton twisted their arm to allow capital flight. you might look at amy goodman's interview with max neef or look up alan watts "on money" or you might just keep thinking that things in the next 50 years will be the same as the last 50 years like most mainstream pundits do.

[-] 2 points by Revy89 (4) 9 months ago

Not quite. There has been fundamental change, capitalism is progressing and the crisis marks a fundamental turning point (although the turning has been happening for a few points now). That's actually the important part of my argument: business as usual doesn't work. We can't just reapply keynesian concepts to an economy that has passed this fundamental threshold.

Capitalism is hitting the inner, logical limit of its growth. (I recommend works by Robert Kurz for a more in detail elaboration) To make it short: it relies on human labour as a source of value, but at the same time, there is a massive incentive for individual corporations to erase that labour from the production process. In the bigger picture that leads to falling profit rates, capital flees into speculative financial markets, those turn critical.

Investing into "green technology" won't change that, because the lack of profitability remains a fundamental problem. Dwindling ressources are not, from capitals perspective. Rising costs for ressources just mean changes in prices, but no fundamental assault on the capitalist production. Capital doesn't care whether you're rich or poor, whether you can afford nice things or not, as long as capital accumulation works.

And, erm, if you're citing Korean laws from a fordist era - who exactly is assuming "business as usual" now? There is an objective need for individual states to make themselves attractive to capital investment to succeed in global competition and neoliberalism wasn't just some "evil US imperialism", it was the systems reply to fordism and keynesianism no longer working after some fundamental changes have occured. This includes process innovation overtaking product innovation, but also the massively increased mobility of goods, services and capital thanks to modern telecommunications and the standardized freight container system.

[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 9 months ago

i am not sure where to start. first of all we agree that capitalism is not a good economic system and neoliberalism has made life worse for much of the developed world. what I am saying is that it does not matter if you are trying to implement a Marxist economy or capitalist economy - if you build it on the assumption of cheap and plentiful oil (to say nothing of copper, iron ore etc) it will not work. no doubt production for use and not for profit is a great idea - check out max neef, maybe that will clear up some of our misunderstanding. what I am saying is that we need to prepare for a future without all of the things we need today to survive. oil being primary. we will not all be driving in private cars or living in spread out suburbs in the not too distant future. we will not be getting our food from California here in nj to say nothing of getting berries from chile! we will not be cooling our 3000 sq ft homes in the deserts of Nevada in august or growing rice and playing golf in Arizona. capitalism as it functions today is a huge problem but I am afraid we have passed the point of tinkering with the system. I hope I am wrong about this - if so then we can talk about how to change the system but I am pretty sure we have bigger fish to fry. maybe what you have in mind will address these issues but what you write to me does not indicate that. here is what dod is saying about some of this - The study also warned of a possible shortfall in global oil output by 2015:

"A severe energy crunch is inevitable without a massive expansion of production and refining capacity. While it is difficult to predict precisely what economic, political, and strategic effects such a shortfall might produce, it surely would reduce the prospects for growth in both the developing and developed worlds. Such an economic slowdown would exacerbate other unresolved tensions."

That year the DoD's Quadrennial Defense Review seconded such concerns, while recognising that "climate change, energy security, and economic stability are inextricably linked."

Also in 2010, the Pentagon ran war games to explore the implications of "large scale economic breakdown" in the US impacting on food supplies and other essential services, as well as how to maintain "domestic order amid civil unrest." ..................as to what I said about korea I do not understand your comment. what I was pointing out is that the problem of capital flight is easily solved - these are laws made by man not god. I have no idea when we will really see the second oil shock (the first one was when oil hit $150 a barrel and sent the economy into crisis) but it is coming - the world is in recession and oil is $100 a barrel - should be obvious what that means! Germany lost ww2 in large part because it ran out of steel, oil and coal - not because it ran out of riechmarks or "capital" - we are facing a time not unlike ww2 - we need to get our heads out of the sand and prepare. what I mentioned in the previous post has been discussed by many including Buckminster fuller in 1969 - read "spaceship earth" - no doubt he agrees with much of what you say. ok, sorry to be so long winded - gotta go - I am not sure we disagree to much on capitalism but I think what I am saying is different altogether - let me know if that is correct.

[-] 2 points by puff6964 (-33) 10 months ago

Yes, Nazi Germany would agree.

[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

that is how hitler built the best army the world has ever seen when the country was in a hyperinflation meltdown. you would think we could figure out how to do the same for building the infrastructure we will need for coming generations. the golden rule is one thing that prevents that since those with the gold want to keep it. they don't like fiat currencies.

[-] 6 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

''Invest in People, Not War'', by Ralph Nader :

''A delegation of activists took to Capitol Hill to demand a decrease in the massive, out-of-control military budget. As millions of Americans struggle with inadequate health care, low wages, deteriorating public services and uncertainty about their futures as the wage gap between the wealthy elite and the working poor widens, billions upon billions of taxpayer dollars are pouring into the coffers of the Department of Defense every year. The Pentagon budget currently makes up half of the U.S. government's entire operating budget. Estimated to be around $716 billion in 2013, the U.S. defense budget is greater than the defense budgets of the next ten highest spending nations combined.''

Thanx for you interesting 'forum-post' flip, belated best wishes of the season to you and yours and in compliment of the subject matter here and for your later perusal, I append and recommend :

''FOUR HORSEMEN - is an independent feature documentary which lifts the lid on how the world really works. As we will never return to 'business as usual' 23 international thinkers, government advisors and Wall Street money-men break their silence and explain how to establish a moral and just society.''

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

nader is the best! I watched most of "what the would could be" - raised some red flags for me. they seem to be against fiat money (maybe not just explaining part of the puzzle but that always makes me think ron paul!) and raising the false boogeyman of inflation. am I wrong here? I am all for public banking etc - do you know about mmt and Michael Hudson. I have seen some references to it on this site and not sure if you put them up or someone else. pretty sure we agree on the basics here. as I said before I think that the first step is for people to realize than we can create all the money we need. if we use our resources correctly we can create a future that works for everyone. have you read Buckminster fuller's "spaceship earth" - written in 1969 and on the money - no pun intended. as you know I was not advocating hitlers methods but we do need to realize that he lost the war in part because he could not get steel and coal and oil - not because he didn't have enough paper currency.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

All ''money'' is ultimately ''fiat'' because it is an abstract, human construct by which we measure relative notions of subjective value and IF enough people have 'confidence' in any given 'subjective abstraction' - then it becomes (almost) 'objectively real'. Thus, my contention is less with the 'notion of Fiat Money' & much more with how it has now manifested via 'Ever Increasing Compound Interest Generating Debt' into something very different to the facilitation of trade and of an effective means of exchange.

Re. Ron Paul .. well even broken clocks can coincidentally get to be right twice a day, lolol. I am also a massive fan of all notions of 'Public Banking' and of Prof. Michael Hudson too & yes, I do know that you weren't advocating Adolf's methodology & that your point is sound that lack of resources is what did for him (that and despite 20 million dead Russians, a people who just would role over and quit & who bore the brunt of his racist, genocidal, imperialism). Further, I append and recommend, the following to all :

Finally, I repeat a quote from J.K.Galbraith (1908-2006) : “The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it. The process by which banks create money is so simple the mind is repelled. With something so important, a deeper mystery seems only decent.”

As Buckminster Fuller said : "A problem adequately stated is a problem well on its way to being solved" and no, I don't know that book ''Spaceship Earth'' but I do know enough about Fuller to like him & know that he is one of the people from whom we all need to learn some deep lessons re. the ultimately, very solvable problems that we all face globally, as the so called ''Free Market'' is anything but and is now increasingly antithetical to progress, sustainability and indeed - basic human ethics. Finally, to put a wry smile on your face, I append with New Year's good wishes to you and yours :

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 2 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

I was incorrect before - nader is not the best , he comes second to George c

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont and U.S. Rep. Peter DeFazio of Oregon have called for a national infrastructure bank. The U.S. Postal Service would fund the proposed bank. The Postal Service—which from 1911 until 1967 provided basic checking and savings services to the public—with its offices in nearly every community has the physical infrastructure to jump-start a national public bank. Deposits would be invested in government securities. These securities would be used to finance infrastructure projects. And the proposal would not require raising taxes. The plan, which I doubt the banking lobbyists and their lackeys in Congress will ever permit, would in addition to saving the Postal Service itself provide access to banking for the one in four households that cannot get such services.'' from :

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 3 points by Nevada1 (4784) 9 months ago

Excellent------Basic checking & savings, and No financial products.

[-] 2 points by flip (7045) 9 months ago

Another good one though I think he did vote for thevwarbin iraq

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

You fail to mention that the (R)epelican'ts are attempting to destroy the USPS.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Was that matter even under question ?! Just how much have the Democraps on the hill done to prevent this ?!! If you're at all confused as to what party The POTUS is actually from .. then I don't blame you !!!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Yes, yes it has been. Many times.

C'mon man. Do you work for them or what?

You have nothing of value to say about USPS and the many people who work for them.

Indeed, just another change of subject.

You should never have mentioned them in the fist place.

Yet you did.

So really?

Are you serious?

You've ignored almost every link I've provided you on events in the UK. Preferring instead to haze subjects, with meandering from ICH.

I'm very taken aback by your lack of concern for recent events in Belfast.

It's like you live in a vacuum.

بله، شما قطعا پوچ است.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''Do you work for them or what ?'' !!! ''Work for'' who shooz ?!! How would YOU like that question ?!

I put the quote up from the Hedges link because I dig both CH & Bernie Sanders. I get as much as I do about USPS because of the sadly similar (actually worse) situation where I live but you do NOT dictate what I say to others here or how I say it, lol. Get a grip or if you have already, let go before you go blind.

WhoTF put you in charge of ''value'' here ?! What did you say about USPS here ?!! You'll be taken aback irrespective of what I say or any links I put up because you resent the very fact that I post on this forum !

Try not to value yourself by how much I ignore you or not as there be monsters. Don't kid yourself matey, you really know very little about me whereas sadly - I know too much about you already !!!

temet nosce ...

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Quote monkey?

Now that's truly lame.

You're correct, I know little about you other than your lack of concern for your community, and your unbridled ability to change subjects on a whim.

(No comment on the UK's ability to print money)

( No comment on the veracity of MMT)

That you think you know about me, has to make me wonder what it is you think you know.

My guess is...not a lot, judging by your lame attempts at insult.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Sounds like you'd love to ban me already, lol. Happy 2014 but with midterms coming up, you'll be busy.

Just scroll from the top of the thread to get what I think of MMT but you can stick to 'wondering' if u like.

What btw, would constitute a 'not lame attempt to insult you' & is it desired so as to provoke banning ?

multum in parvo ...

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[-] -1 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 9 months ago

If you get banned it would leave the Fantastic Four with 20k points - through total control of the forum- and everyone else in single digits on the low end.

In a way, they may need you to keep that moniker at this point more than you realize.

Happy New Years to everyone! Cheers!

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

Awe shucks, there's no need to worry about Tim, is there?

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Still changing subjects?

Yep.

But since you've already changed it.

Consider......

The citizens of another country's attempts to remove their versions of libe(R)topians from control.

http://www.occupy.com/article/thailand-protests-continue-calls-grow-regime-change

Please note that don't use ICH for information.

Kuv nco qab cov neeg uas muaj cov tshuaj ntxuav tes opera hais ntawd yog kuv lub tswv yim. Tsaug rau qhov tseeb tiag, koj yog lawv sway.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

IF you understood the first thing about Thailand you'd have realised that it is a stand off between different right-wing factions, populist nationalists v. 'neoliberal (pseudo)modernists', with the populace being given a totally faux choice but of course that may ring some uncomfortable bells close to home & sad sigh :-(

Furthermore, you keep pushing your preferred construction ''libe(R)topian'' because you think there's no ''(D)'' in it but I've news for you shooz ... your blessed Democraps are no less tainted by, what some of us may prefer to call 'RanDian Neoliberalism' & do note that you do NOT set the agenda here !!!

Like GF, you do not like The ICH because you're waay to the right of it, like most US 'liberals' !!

Stop being so querulous & obtuse & review the thread to see who is ''changing subjects'' here !

''The world sends us garbage. We send back music.'' - for 2014 ~

bonne annee' et deja vu ?

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[-] 0 points by Spartacus14 (102) from Boulder, CO 9 months ago

shooz, I used to find your writing style annoying, but now think it to be pathetic and amusing as all hell. And the juvenile, baiting content is that of a desperate person who in this case sees his perverted, partisan dream slipping away. I know it's a fault of mine, but I do find it quite satisfying.

2014 should be the year for the forum to move on in a positive way without the dead wood that has held it back for so long. So with any kind of luck , the ostracization you are feeling now will be permanent. It is a feeling that many good Occupiers have unfairly experienced....people who did not cave in to your iron-fisted partisan agenda.

I applaud all those who resisted your bs, and have continued on undeterred in knowing what our struggle is about. And that same recalcitrance to the abusiveness and divisions that you have propagated on here will serve us well as it has prepared us to a small degree at least as to what lies ahead. So for that toughness that you have helped instill in so many people here, I Thank You. Unfortunately, that is the only compliment I have for you shooz.

And BTW, the word is 'libe(((R&D)))opeyans.' The extra parenthesis marks signify a cyber hug?

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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 months ago

Divide and Conquer.

divert and concur ?

or does the division simply satiate the masses?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

The "need" for satiation, was created by PR firms in the first place.

Keeping alive the belief in "duopoly" is in their vested interest.

Please note how hard I get hit, ever time I ask for verification of that belief.

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[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 months ago

it's not that the parties are the same

perhaps it is those with money and power have mutual interests

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[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

Keep downvoting.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 9 months ago

And happy new year to you too, whoever you are!!

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

So, it is the standard PR Firm greeting.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

;D Is that the standard pr firm holiday greeting?

[-] -1 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 9 months ago

No, thats just me wishing you a happy new year. Be happy you aren't buried in snow in the ROC right now :)

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

And you would be a puppet of whom?

Or are you just Odin in disguise?

Farewell, to your well wrought lies.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 9 months ago

You fucking piece of shit dirt bag.

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[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

Did you catch George Carlin saying :

  • ''And don't forget, the polls show the American people want capital punishment, and they want a balanced budget. And I think even in a fake democracy, people ought to get what they want once in a while. Just to feed this illusion that they're really in charge. Let's use capital punishment the same way we use sports and television in this country, to distract people and take their minds off how bad they're being fucked by the upper one percent'' ?!

Could be the first mention of The 1% from 1996. GC, as we know ... was a man far ahead of his time !!

respice, adspice, prospice ...

[-] -1 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 10 months ago

Nice find!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

Thanx and seems that you are always Onto something yourself, ergo see :

ipsa scientia potestas est ...

[-] 0 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 10 months ago

"The real reason that we can’t have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse: You cannot post “Thou shalt not steal,” “Thou shalt not commit adultery,” and “Thou shalt not lie” in a building full of lawyers, judges, and politicians. It creates a hostile work environment." -GC

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[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

Here's the real horsemen.

Мыльная опера по-прежнему владеет вашей души. Вы должны спросить их, чтобы дать его обратно.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

''The soap opera continues to own your soul. You should ask them to give it back.'' Hhmmmmm.

So - I Google translate your Cyrillic and come up with that. Are you cross that I referenced Those Damn Ruskis ?! Stuck in a Cold War Time Warp ?!! Are you too a subscriber to, 'American Exceptionalism' ?!!!

This isn't the first time that you have tried to whisper the very same cryptic shit to me in obscure scripts and languages as I recall ! What's your purpose ?!! A more apt question may be .. 'who do you serve' ?!!!

Wtf do you mean by that, exactly ?! Get this ... you're at the centre of your own ''soap opera'' shooz and furthermore, you're the main script-writer thereof !! If you've got something to say, man up and front it out straight but don't go insidiously irritating me on other people's threads and stalking me like you do to bw - who by the way, hasn't been on this forum lately ... so has that anything to do with you, d'you think ?!!!

Exactly what are you alluding to with, ''own your soul'' and are you a wannabe occultist or something ?!!!

mumbo jumbo, abracadabra, right back @ u

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Does that mean you're not going to ask them?

In my haste, I forgot the link.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-four-horsemen-of-the-libertopian-apocalypse/

The rest of your statement is unbelievably off kilter, and of course, misses the point.

In other news.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/28/anti-muslim-hate-crimes-skyrocket-in-u-k-in-2013/

It often amazes me, how many people ignore their own back yards, while thinking they can see everyone else's.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Ask who, what shooz ?!!! But I'll ask you tho' - 'Who Do You Work For Here shooz' ?!! Happy now ?!

Btw, what point did I miss again ?! Did you even make one (other than about yourself) ?!! I am a hard copy 'Grauniad' reader shooz, so I do know about that story and even about goings on in Belfast, but what's it to you here actually and do you think that I'm posting here on your sufferance ?!

People from all over this beautiful world have posted on this forum & much to your chagrin obviously !!!

nosce te ipsum ...

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Are you still making things up?

Yes indeed you are.

If you know about Belfast, why no comment on the UK's apartheid there?

I can only believe you agree with the UK's continued occupation of N. Ireland.

Keep your attempts at insult for use against your friend trashy.

Cov tshuaj ntxuav tes opera tseem yog tswv tau koj tus plig. Yuav koj yuav hu rau tus xa rau Odin ntev dua? Koj twb paub ua lawm, uas yog txhawj txog trolling?

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

A very desperate and silly comment, that is so desperate and silly as to warrant no further engagement (mainly because I'm in a rush, so I may come back for another bite lol) from a desperate, silly and sadly 'small' person, now resorting to replying & talking to himself in tongues !!! Sad !! Funny too ... but mainly just sad !

Stop walking into the face palms, will you please ?

gnothi seauton ...

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[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Sad indeed that you ignore your own community and support those that insult me for posting about mine.

Inti għandu jgawdi verament li huma l-proprjetà.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

One Community. Not ''your''. Not ''mine''. Just Ours.

The Cyrillic was the only one I translated shooz, lolol.

Are you speaking in tongues or channelling Elmer Fudd ?

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6614) from St Louis, MO 9 months ago

Okay, wait a minit!

As a proud Amerukun, I can take your bashing of our laughable political system and it's dubiously elected clowns.

I can put up with your allusions of the US populace being brainwashed, dumbed-down consumerist lemmings.

I can even take your periodic admonitions even while you yourself succumb to the baser instincts on occasion.

But, when you take to bashing Elmer Fudd, or any other member of the WB stable of American icons, you've gone way too far, my friend.

Happy New Year, shadz. And solidarity. ;-)

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Umm, like 'Foghorn Leghorn' too you mean ?! I feel like I've been talking to him lately !! Sadly !!!

Many thanx for the chortles & best wishes for 2014 & beyond to you & yours 'g' & - solidarity :-)

pax, amor et lux ...

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/austerity-bobbys-and-the-uk/

Yes, you ignore your own community.

Would you kindly post the good Senators comments on his (R)epelican't colleagues?

Just so the record is clear.

Fiat just finished buying Chrysler.

And........

Saippuaooppera omistaa edelleen sinulle.

Ain't the innerwebs grand?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Stop talking outta your arse mate !!! Pretty Please !! With Extra Sprinkles ! Go read this :

Btw ... are you a li'l bit of a 'drinker' shooz ? Yes or no, STOP baiting me - it ain't pretty !

multum in parvo ...

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

OIC, Ignore answering the question and instead, attack me on a personal level. Again.

Was it that difficult for you actually State what Sen. Sanders says?

Or does that part not fit within your very narrow agenda?

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

You're happy to try to dish it but just can't take it really, right ?!

Why don't you tell us what Sanders said about 'Republicrats' ?!!

I'll stick to what he said here in case you didn't get it 1st time !!!

A 'narrow agenda', doesn't get narrower than one half of a duopoly.

ad iudicium ...

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[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Can you prove that?

They insult themselves by not answering the simplest of questions.

It's not asking the question, that is the insult, it's the indignation expressed, by not answering it that is insulting.

The ultimate insult to this forum though, are puppets and bots.

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[+] -4 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

'The soap opera continues to own your soul. You should ask them to give it back.''

hehe... it sounds right to me ;)

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

So chuckle-bunny, you'd know what about what exactly ?!!! You should be more curious as to who keeps voting your sorry ass down, irrespective of what you say !! Now here's a clue .... it ain't me !

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 9 months ago

I'm confused

wasn't shooz an article finder ?

[+] -6 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

hey Fuck Head .... I could care less who votes me down... and you should too

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

Here have a twinkle, lol ! Plot loss - instant !! Checkmate - two moves ... sport - none !!! Take a leaf from your friend's book ... he's got three twinkles now, at the time of my typing and fyi, get your laughing gear around this : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37196.htm for some further insight into ... ?! Furthermore, IF you ''could care less'' does that mean you actually 'care' more than you care to admit ?!!

verum ex absurdo ...

[+] -6 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Whoah! We shouldn't be fighting against each other!

[+] -6 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Are you angry at everybody or what? Bad xMas?

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

Nope. Nice Xmas with happy younglings and a good dinner & all dat, thanx. You've just joined the forum so you'd imagine you know what about me ? My momentary beef was with shooz, 'til BradBird chirpped in - et maintenant - toi, donc ca va ? Tho' how was Copenhagen is perhaps a better question ? Et a' toi :

sub rosa ...

[+] -6 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Nope. I don't imagine I know about you. That's why I asked some questions. You just seemed angry. OWS is about love and peace man.

Copenhagen? Is that where you're from?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

Here you go 'Trashy', finagle this into your 'one troll conspiracy concerns', lol :

''History, from ancient times to the present, teaches us that not all ‘mass revolts’ achieve, or are even motivated by, democratic objectives. Many have served oligarchs seeking to overthrow democratic governments, totalitarian leaders seeking to install fascist and pro-imperial regimes, demagogues and authoritarians seeking to weaken shaky democratic regimes and militarists seeking to start wars for imperial ambitions.'' Furthermore, I also append the following here for the consideration of others :

Finally ... 'CONcern Trolling' is a CONspiracy to try to gain CONtroll of this forum imo :

temet nosce ...

[+] -6 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Who is Trashy? You're confusing me with someone else. My real name is Martin. I am from Kentland, IN.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

All lies from a time served liar, who before his edits - first replied like this :

=====================================================

[-] 1 points by revolutionman (-41) from Kentland, IN 2 minutes ago

Who is Thrasy?

↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

=====================================================

Your CONceits are hilarious and tedious all at the same time !!

You really are a total feckin' eedjut ... unlike Alexis Goldstein :

nosce te ipsum ...

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[-] -3 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 9 months ago

Responding to : http://occupywallst.org/forum/printing-more-money-is-the-answer/#comment-1016080

Again, I am not Trashy. I don't even know who that is. Do you spend your time on forums insulting people you don't know? It seems like a waste of time to me.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

Like Ozymandias, we shall know you by your works, but we will laugh as opposed to ''despair'', lolol :

That'll pander to your CONceits, however, far more relevant to flip's thread, I append and recommend :

e tenebris, lux ...

[+] -4 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Responding to your comment below.

Are you insane? Paranoid? Seeing ghosts? I do not know what you are talking about. I started using this forum a few days ago.

You bash BradB then shooz now me? Is OWS a game to you?

We should help each other. Not piss on each other.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 9 months ago

''Is OWS a game to you ?'' A great question from a silly li'l turd, who wants to be heard - but just won't flush or see that he's an ... Ever Replicating, 'One Troll Herd' !!!

As ever, I called you 'Trashy'. You claimed to be new here (yet again) & to have misread 'Thasy', lololol. You claim to be messaged by an established poster and seem to 'divine and intuit' that poster's gender - BUT how would you know which was right - 'he or her' ; 'Trashy or Thrasy' ?!!

Of course you could not initially bring yourself to overcome your deep CONceits !

Know a 'CONcern Troll' [ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Concern_troll ] by its doings and whisperings. ''We should help each other'' - expose would-be co-opters and trolls, so I'll continue to ''piss'' on you despite your persistent hissss but much more pertinently to this mainly decent thread, I append & recommend :

et cave - anguis in herba ...

[+] -4 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Yes. I did edit my comment. I read Thrasy the first time. A user named Renneye sent me a message to notify me of the error. So who is this Trashy? And who is this Renneye?

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

LOL !!! Yawwwwwn !! Ssshhhh !

Now, as per flip's forum-post ....

Run along now li'l wannabe CONcern TROLLer.

gnothi seauton ...

[+] -6 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Ok. This is weird. Renneye sent me another PM. She thinks I'm this Thrasy guy as well. Honestly. I do not know Thrasy. Who is Thrasy? Renneye - whoever you are - I cannot respond to you.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2030) 10 months ago

They're printing up money right now faster than a bullet train on its way to Tokyo. Problem is they're giving it away to banks and rich people, and not to anybody out trying to work for a living. In doing so, they are making what little money we working people still have worth less; thus screwing us over big time. Printing up money in and of itself is no solution.

[-] 4 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

that is correct and keyes understood that - part of the money in bottles quote is this - "It would, indeed, be more sensible to build houses and the like; but if there are political and practical difficulties in the way of this, the above would be better than nothing."

[-] 1 points by Shule (2030) 10 months ago

There are people out there talking about "helicopter money." Unfortunately, I don't see any helicopters overhead from which people are throwing out bags of money for me to catch. I don't expect to see any money falling from the sky anytime soon. I think the point very many people are missing is that the powers making economic policy are not really interested in fixing any economy for the people, but rather they are out to rob the last once of wealth from ordinary folk. If they were really interested in fixing the "economy" they would have done so a long time ago. It has nothing to do with a lack of knowhow. The only real question is given the economic situation we have been put in, what are we ordinary people going to do?

[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

correct again - they know how to fix the problem but clearly don't want to

[-] 1 points by grapes (3261) 9 months ago

There IS "helicopter money." In fact, from December 2012 to end of 2013, you could have gained about 30% on the money that you put into the stock market. In December 2012 the U.S. economy was reversing its direction of recovery and the U.S. federal reserve stated in no uncertain terms that it would not let the economy down. There was the Bernanke "helicopter money" going to the rescue.

I was depressed that the resumption of recovery would mean that most problems that OWS concerns with would be forgotten. Anyway, the strong buy signal was clearly present. You need to tune in to the fed talks because "Never fight the fed!" is a maxim to gain wealth with.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2030) 9 months ago

I invested in Ford stock when is was at 3/4. But I'm not going to gamble my life saving at that Wall Street Casino.

latest stock tip; "Jollibees"

[-] 2 points by grapes (3261) 9 months ago

Yes, wisely said indeed about the Wall Street "Casino." Given the economic system that we are living with, being pragmatic about playing a little hooky on the side can gain us wealth, even if we had to crawl under the skirt of the stock-market whore with ecstasy and imbued with "animal spirits." Always wear the "Protection" when approaching that chainsaw with one hand tied to your back(there is the equivalence of the NSA at least; and worse yet frontrunner far less passive than the NSA) on Wall Street.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

Why mince words?

They are libe(R)topians for the most part.

The "cure" lies in adopting MMT in it's entirety.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2030) 10 months ago

We shouldn't expect the powers in power to adopt any type of Modern Money Theory ( if that is what you mean by MMT?). The powers have no interest to do so. The question is how we working folk adopt MMT for our selves? Like should we start our own fiat currency? Maybe we can start using something like coffee or jewelry as a currency; its been done before. ??? And how ought we blow off the monetary system we have to deal with right now? Blow some libeRtopians away?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Why not?

[-] 2 points by Shule (2030) 9 months ago

'cause they are evil scum bags out to screw you and everybody else over.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

That's libe(R)topians all right.

But you didn't answer, why not?

[-] 1 points by Shule (2030) 9 months ago

I thought I did. Nobody in power is going to adopt MMT because it is not in their interest to do so. Nobody in power is any intention on fixing anything, because the system broken as it is is what keeps them in power.

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

You missed the part where I suggested they implement it in it's entirety.

They already know, that's how it works.

It's the vested interests, that have successfully managed to convince you it isn't.

[-] 1 points by Shule (2030) 9 months ago

I know what your saying. I'm saying the scum that profits in a corrupt and failing systems, has no interest in accommodating something that works, in part or in its entirety.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 9 months ago

Silly......you shouldn't assume they're stupid.

They know full well MMT is very close to how things work.

The danger to them, is in the rest of us knowing it.

It throws the whole macro-economics, as a checkbook paradigm out the window.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 9 months ago

What would implementing MMT include?

Here's the wiki on it, looks like a few hacks have been dicing is up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 10 months ago

We should stop calling them "the powers" if we are to ever rid ourselves of their toxic influence over both our financial situation, and our lawmakers/lawkeepers.

[-] 2 points by Shule (2030) 10 months ago

Ok; Let's call them Evil bottom feeding scumbags.

[-] -1 points by Builder (4202) 10 months ago

They are pirates; pure and simple.

[+] -6 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Puppeteer pirates. The elites of the elites control everything in the world.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

I agree... and a "Social Reserve Bank" .... of the people, by the the people, and for the people... would bring capital into the people's reach w/o any opposition

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

well.... from a simple mathematical view....

think of the monopoly game.... the bank has only so much money... and everyone starts out with equal funds.....

yet ... when new players enter the game ... what is fair..?

  • the bank give them... some money to start with..? ...or
  • every player gives them ... a portion of their money to start with..?

either way ... the original players see a devaluation of their worth due to distribution to the new players....

and that is exactly what is happening today.... and on a very large scale.... because ... not only of the rapid increase of population... but also because of the industrialization of the existing countries... which also allows existing people to enter the game....

printing more....IS the easiest, fairest and most productive way to keep the balance...

it's just that all the global economies need to do it at the same pace

[-] 1 points by Shule (2030) 9 months ago

There are limits beyond which one would be overdoing it. They are printing up money primarily not because more players are coming into the game, but because they do not want to make good on their debts. What easier way to payout a debt, when all one has to do is print more $$$ off a machine. Meanwhile the $$$ become worthless.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

well.... back when OWS first received its big donation... can't remember how much?.... $500k ?.... I argued strongly to use $50k to print a million dollars worth of "Occupy dollars".... with "not legal tender yet" ... printed on it... it would have gained value... for just the novelty ... if nothing else.... ;)

[+] -4 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

OWS never received a "big donation". It received a lot of small donations.

Your idea would have wasted a perfectly good 50k.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

yeah... that's what many said back then.... that's why OWS didn't turn $50k into a $M..

[+] -4 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

They didn't spend the money wisely. They paid for an occupation, but had no money coming in. They should have started a coop business to make some money. They should have become sustainable. Spending 50k to make worthless Occupy money wouldn't have made them millions. Creating a business to help others could have started something sustainable.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

maybe .... but also maybe.... a $M of worthless Occupy money ... could have started many many more businesses to help others ....

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[-] 1 points by mayda (57) 10 months ago

yes let's print all the money we need to get people working and prepare our society for the future

[-] -2 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

The problem isn't the amount of money in circulation, it's how it's being distributed. In other words, we have to work on the distribution issues, not the production ones. Printing more money doesn't solve anything.

[-] 4 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

yes that is correct but that is really not the point of the post. the debate in elite circles (and on main street and even here) is about the deficit and revenues etc - should we cut social security - can't we afford health care fro everyone (who is going to pay for it?) - too bad but we have to cut the pensions of those people in Detroit. it is a false argument - we have all the money we need to do whatever we want. if you are saying we already have enough we just need to take it from the rich and corporations I won't argue.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 10 months ago

The Obama administration and this current Congress just ended sequester cuts for the DOD and signed away another trillion dollars for our leader's jock wagging lust for power trip.

That amount of money, combined with the amount of mental attention it takes.... if it were removed we could focus and have the finances to do almost anything.

[-] -2 points by Builder (4202) 10 months ago

The pillaging of the public purse continues.

[+] -4 points by revolutionman (-106) from Kentland, IN 10 months ago

Yep. Obama conspires just as much as Bush did.

[+] -5 points by florydorey (-11) 10 months ago

Print money.???...with zero value??. I think you economic ignoramuses are bit confused. Then again, this is the type of thinking you get with out of work hippies,.

[-] 5 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

if you think hard currency and fiat currency are different then you have not thought it through - read this then explain hitler's war machine.............on the fundamental confusion between money and wealth: Remember the Great Depression of the Thirties? One day there was a flourishing consumer economy, with everyone on the up-and-up; and the next, unemployment, poverty, and bread lines. What happened? The physical resources of the country -- the brain, brawn, and raw materials -- were in no way depleted, but there was a sudden absence of money, a so-called financial slump. Complex reasons for this kind of disaster can be elaborated at length by experts on banking and high finance who cannot see the forest for the trees. But it was just as if someone had come to work on building a house and, on the morning of the Depression, the boss had said, "Sorry, baby, but we can't build today. No inches." "Whaddya mean, no inches? We got wood. We got metal. We even got tape measures." "Yeah, but you don't understand business. We been using too many inches and there's just no more to go around." A few years later, people were saying that Germany couldn't possibly equip a vast army and wage a war, because it didn't have enough gold. What wasn't understood then, and still isn't really understood today, is that the reality of money is of the same type as the reality of centimeters, grams, hours, or lines of longitude. Money is a way of measuring wealth but is not wealth in itself. A chest of gold coins or a fat wallet of bills is of no use whatsoever to a wrecked sailor alone on a raft. He needs real wealth, in the form of a fishing rod, a compass, an outboard moter with gas, and a female companion. Alan Watts - Does It Matter?

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

Usury-Free Currency Competes with Federal Reserve Notes

Published on Dec 24, 2013 Wayne Walton is a leading proponent of local currencies. He is well-known as an expert on organic money. He has also spoken extensively on the subject.

Local currencies have become more popular as towns and cities try to keep local business thriving. Instead of relying on dollars printed by the Federal Reserve, locales around the country are trying to keep their economies local.

Such private monetary systems are sometimes called organic currencies. Supporters of private money say their currencies are created without debt. Critics say such plans can be dangerously unstable.

One of the towns adopting a local form of monetary exchange is the college town of Ithaca, New York. The home of Cornell University is also the location of Ithaca Hours. This currency has been highly successful. It is now accepted by over 900 local vendors. This program is now the model of the new Mountain Hours being introduced in Summit County, Colorado.

Walton Interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wklaW4LwotM

[-] 4 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

I am all for local money but does not solve the larger problem of organizing a large economy in a country like the u.s.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

ok question flip... who do you want to organize the economy ?

obviously big gov & wallst arn't doing it very well ....

so why not simply let "the people" do it ?

and do it as we wish w/o any restrictions ?

all that needs is access to capital ... and localities can easily provide that w/o any permission or control from the bought and paid for congress or wallst....

[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

I agree to some extent. i am all for making economies more local but not sure how far we can move in that direction in the near future. seems to me the first thing is for people to get a better understanding of how money works in the economy. to realize that there is plenty of money for social security or unemployment or whatever. the transition movement (i think started in England) is doing much of what you talk about. so mostly i agree on the what now tell me the how.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

how?.... easy ..;)

  • first don't make enemies.... like trying to dismantle the Fed ... etc
  • just side step them....
  • follow the Bank of N Dakota...
  • establish social capital .... ie ... capital based on social profits (ie social good for the communities) .... as opposed to economic profits...
  • last I read... there are now 17 state owned banks in the US....
  • unite these banks as a Social Reserve Bank .... and demand the same deals the Fed gets in terms of currency availability & interest....
  • and we would then have a source of capital that reaches the masses as opposed to the privileged...
[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

I like it! are you sure about the 17 states - that surprises me - I thought it was just n d. stiglitz was saying something similar when the first big bailout happened. he wanted to take that $700,000,000,000 and instead of giving it to the private banks create a national bank - leverage it 10 to 1 and start loaning 7 trillion. lots could be done. I think everyone should get a basic income from the government. - Alaska does it to some extent so does Sweden etc. also the federal government could do very low mortgages and student loans - g i bill type stuff. what has to happen first though is that we need to get the old style economists to admit that the government can print all the money it needs. to admit that the government budget is not like a household budget or a business. until we get that understanding out there we are stuck in this political cycle seems to me. I am all for your ideas - tell me where to sign up - have you looked at the transition movement

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

I personally believe we already are in the "transition movement".... the greed of the elite has already pushed many to look for alternate currency's ...and for many... even if the greedy elite changed their ways ... we still want a better way...

printing unlimited money is not a successful path for world health ... too big a flood of money would also collapse the economy just as too little does.... money needs to have a value... for if money was free ... it could not buy anything.....

however... as we have allowed many many more people into the game... thru population increase as well as ... global industrialization (which is another form of population increase)... we definitely need to add more currency and means of exchange into the game...

the credit card industry... is a form of adding currency... that... abstract money added doesn't exist in reality.... you can't touch it... but it does exist as a means of exchange...

the creation of fiat currency was also a form of adding currency... etc..

As far as getting old style economists to admit anything... is a waste of time imo.... why waste the energy... develop new ways and they will either jump on board or simply fade away losing their power....

As well as old style politicians .... In the somewhat near future ....they will have seen their days also....

The development and expansion of Social Capital ... is not the only way.... but it is a very promising and likely fastest path to ending poverty and industrial pollution... imo....

[-] 2 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

not sure exactly what you mean by all of this. I think we disagree on "money printing" - depends what you use it for not whether you "print" it or not. if we use it to build aircraft carriers then it is a waste. if we build a smart grid and solar farms it is productive. if you want to create a local currency then it is the same fiat currency that you seem to be arguing against. who would create that local currency and how? here is a piece from Stephanie kelton on modern monetary theory which is very much a correct theory - “The government, when it issues its own currency, and goes into debt in that currency can always pay its debt, can never go broke, can never run out of money. It can afford anything that is for sale in that currency. It doesn’t need to borrow its own currency. And it can set its own interest rate. It does not have to pay what markets want. It does not become a victim to speculation, to bond vigilantes. It has additional policy space. It can do things for its economy and for its people that a government that does not have a sovereign currency cannot do.

(c. 12:18) “Think about what the hierarchy would look like under a gold standard. Many governments operated under gold or silver or both for some period of time in our world history. Under a gold standard, the government promises to convert its currency into gold. In that situation, what sits at the top of the pyramid is not the state’s currency, but the gold reserves. This means that the government must be careful about how much it spends. If it spends too much of its own currency, it can jeopardise the entire system because it may not be able to convert currency into gold as promised. You have to limit your spending and limit what you do with your policies. Governments operating under a gold standard do not have sovereign currency

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

I tend to agree with Stephanie kelton's premise... however ;)

the reason our govt, the Fed et all are doing what they are doing (aside from the greed and corruption)... is simply to provide employment....

And they are doing a piss poor job.... but that is what they are trying to do... and in their opinion the task is so enormous that they do not care about the poor, or even the middle class... they are simply trying to keep the top economy going.....

and I'm not agreeing w/ them.... just being aware....

If we waste all our time trying to change that... we will have wasted our time imo.... it's impossible to stop that moving train until it has run out of fuel.....

and think about this.... why stop it ?... that system IS providing some economy for many.... but not everyone... and that is the real problem...

We should also realize that eventually..... technology will provide every labor.... and there will be no jobs.... for there will be no need for them....

So ... our real problem is how do we provide opportunity for everyone now.... until our utopia is reached ?

I say... we need to understand what is "profit"....

Our existing system supported by the Govt's and Banks... etc.... is based on "economic profit" .... a type of profit that only cares about ... it's monetary increase.... and nothing about it's impact on the people.....

Why not create an "Additional" profit.... one that cares only about the " impact on the people"..... and nothing about it's "monetary increase" .... a "Social Profit" ... ?

[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

how about production for use and not for profit? I think the problem with the fed is one of democracy. nothing wrong with a central bank but what is wrong is that it works for those in power instead of the public. same with most problems of the country and the world - real democracy is the answer no? again creating a more local economy is great - especially when we run out of cheap oil to move goods around the world. we need to get the central bank and the government to work in a democratic way and then we will have a national bank with very low interest etc no?

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

flip... ;) how about ...

  • "production for use and not for profit" .... being "social profit" ? ...

the Fed and banks are not interested in those things anyway ... they are only interested in get rich quick schemes ....

and imo.... the government will NEVER work in a democratic way .... as long as money can buy politicians .... and as long as we have money.... money will buy politicians.... our answer there is for the people to be the government ...

but now we are talking two different things.... economic policy vs government structure

[-] 3 points by flip (7045) 10 months ago

if that is something similar to what you mean by social profit I am with you. I don't think we will get rid of money but I do think we can get money out of politics. don't we mean the same thing when you say "the people will be the government" and I say put the fed under democratic control? you do realize that it used to be called political economy - the fields were split to create confusion and make it easier for the ruling class to control the people.

[-] 1 points by BradB (2693) from Washington, DC 10 months ago

agree.... re..."the people will be the government"

once "direct democracy" is in place... ie... who ever wishes... vote on every issue.... our representatives will then become our teachers on the issues.... our representatives of our communities .... and our experts in their fields....