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Forum Post: Austerity, Bobby's and the UK

Posted 11 months ago on Jan. 1, 2014, 1:41 p.m. EST by shoozTroll (17632)
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

Hmmm, they want to take land and sell it to "developers".

Sounds like libe(R)tarians to me.

"Save our Homes: Haringey" is a fast growing campaign to resist the Metropolitan Police throwing a community of 21 families out into the street.

Within two weeks of its first public meeting, it held its first protest last weekend outside the Met Police Headquarters, New Scotland Yard, which wants to sell the land where the families live to developers. The campaign needs to move fast: the residents have been served papers and bailiffs intend to remove the first residents on March 11.

Twenty-one families currently live at Connaught Gardens, North London. Some of the residents have lived here for over 20 years. When they first moved in, they were told it would be a "home for life" by the Housing Association. Several years ago, without explanation, they were told they had to sign new tenancy deals that effectively meant the land could be given back to its original owners: the Met Police.

Recently, the locals wrote a statement before taking to the streets: “We have lived here for over 20 years," they said. "The Met Police will be ripping the heart out of this community, as the families are due to be evicted in two weeks time.”

157 Comments

157 Comments


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[-] 4 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

That is interesting.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Isn't it though?

Somehow it got passed over.

Interesting, and more than a little strange.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

I know I have said it before but I have a good friend that lives in London that is fighting the privatization of the medical care system. She was doing this long before August 2011. But, it wasn't until after the 2011 riots that people began to pay attention to the level of poverty that existed and the libertopian element that had moved itself in.

Not a peep from our beloved ShadzofStank?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Privatization?

You're supposed to blame that on anything but libe(R)tarians.

Except that that is what libe(R)tarians do.

They love their austerity too, no matter who gets hurt.

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/young_britons_feel_they_have_nothing_to_live_for_20140102

Martina Milburn, chief executive of the Prince’s Trust, said: “Unemployment is proven to cause devastating, long-lasting mental health problems among young people.

Nope, the silence is the sound of no peeping.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Long-term unemployed young people were more than twice as likely as others their age to have been prescribed anti-depressants. One in four said they had hurt themselves in the course of their depression. Those showing “symptoms of mental illness, including suicidal thoughts, feelings of self-loathing and panic attacks, as a direct result of unemployment” counted for 40 percent, the BBC said.


Nice job those libertopians have, eh?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

And don't mention Barclays ties to the destruction of Detroit.

One's not supposed to notice such things.

We've gone so far down the libe(R)topian path that such a study would never be funded here in the US, unless they could tie it into a marketing campaign of one sort or another.

[-] 3 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Of course not. That would be anathema.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Or some one could just provide a long winded speech that completely clouds the issue, while ignoring the actual event.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Ya, the wall of shit?

You do see the bullshit below and how they scream victim at the same time.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

So much of what's happening in the UK gets ignored.

Fracking, for instance.

This, from the vaunted Guardian.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/dec/19/uk-fracking-shale-gas

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

The guardian is about full of shyte.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

They do have some good informative articles, but they are not the be all, end all, of World news.

Or even of news in the UK.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

That's like saying......every once in awhile Fox News tells the truth.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

They do???

Don't tell Murdock.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

http://www.occupy.com/article/british-law-failing-student-protesters-demand-end-austerity

Incorporated with the coalition government’s pro-business austerity agenda, the right to protest has faced severe cuts in Britain.

Recent examples include:

– This month, arms protesters face legal hearings after blocking the world’s largest security and defense event on September 13 – though no one inside the arms fair was charged for selling illegal weaponry.

– Two recently released videos capture British police assaulting members of the public during protests. One shows a police officer punching a student, while the other shows an assault on a live-streamer in Barton Moss, an anti-fracking protection camp.

– The British government is aiming to deport anti-inequality one-time protester Trenton Oldfield, who interrupted a boat race and has already been sent to jail. The government insists on pursuing its goal to deport Oldfield even after an immigration judge’s decision comprehensively dismissed the case.

Additionally, the Home Secretary who called for this move also wants Britain to scrap the European Convention on Human Rights, which protects the right to protest among other civil liberties.

– The UN has repeatedly criticized the UK government for clamping down on peaceful protest groups, including environmentalists, and infiltrating these groups with spies who contribute to their being falsely labeled as domestic extremists.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

''History is now under attack from the ideologues of the new right and from (The UK) coalition education ministers.

''The current dominance of neoliberal, elitist ideology threatens to create a culturally totalitarian Orwellian society with no space for alternative conceptions. The gap between the rich and powerful and the rest is accompanied by a similar gulf in political perceptions.

''The result is that the political process becomes more and more discredited. This closing down of the discussion of alternative analyses is exemplified by the revolt of economics students against being taught exclusively the (manifestly untenable) neoclassical orthodoxies, and their demands that alternative theories – those of Marx, Adam Smith and Keynes – should be included in their curriculums

''Fundamental social and political change came from movements of the "common people". He had little time for political parties and their bureaucratised processes, still less for the belief that history was predetermined: he believed in the human agency of ordinary people making their own history. As he put it, "The working class did not rise like the sun at an appointed time. It was present at its own making." In this sense, his position prefigures the non-aligned progressive left of the early 21st century – exemplified by the Greens, the Occupy movement, UK Uncut, and the opposition to the renewal of Trident. [''He'' being the historian and educator, E.P.Thomson ; ''Trident'' = Nuclear Missile]

''It is no coincidence that the current attacks on the welfare state and the public sector are accompanied by attempts to undermine core cultural and institutional freedoms – the jury system, the rights of trade unionists and minorities, and media freedom (&) almost all these freedoms had been achieved through working-class, progressive struggle against the bitter opposition of the ruling class.

''The consequences of forgetting these lessons would be profound. If the next generation of schoolchildren and university students are, in effect, indoctrinated into believing that there is no alternative to a politics that privileges the rich and powerful then political disillusionment and alienation will increase. A vacuum in democratic politics is likely to lead to the rise of the populist, xenophobic right, as can be seen in the current politics of both the UK and other European societies. The stakes could hardly be higher.''

Excerpted and abridged in reply from :

Also, please urgently see the following video of George Galloway @ The Oxford Union and a 'really must watch' video, with which I agree substantially :

So you see shooz, The Global 99% Struggle is really not so dissimilar in USUK or elsewhere. 'Randian Neoliberalism' or ''Libe(R)topians'', matters not what we call them - so long as we get the 'The 0.01% via The 1%' own and control 'The Faux Dichotomy' that is being implemented worldwide - as Democracy is usurped the world over. I did like your piece because I can relate to it as I'm an ex-London (Brixton and Streatham) 'Self Empowered Housing' person myself, tho' GF trying to call me out is funny, considering she used to think, I'm from Arkansas or something, lolol. Finally, also perhaps consider bookmarking :

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 months ago

good luck with wiping instantly transferable data out in the cloud

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

All of that typing and not a single word for people under siege?

No admission that this "policy", is distinctly libe(R)tarian??

You even try and somehow blame it on the US???????

WTF!

And you asked me if I have a drinking problem!!??

No, I don't.

Do you an ADHD problem?

Vakna upp och lukta på kaffet.

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

do I understand this correctly - do you think that these policies are right wing republican policies? austerity is going on throughout most of the developed world - I think it is an extension of the Reagan era and mostly just an extension of the neoliberal agenda. do you disagree and why?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

I said they were libe(R)tarian.

World wide.

I've been saying that for a while now.

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

what is your take on the era of Reagan, bush, Clinton - do you think Clinton was much different - remember nafta and "ending welfare as we know it"

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

LIbe(R)topianism.

Trickle down, never left. It's fully endorsed by all 50 States.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

ok, since I am not too sharp these days I am taking this to mean you think Clinton was and is a libe(R)topian - not exactly sure what that is although I am sure I can guess somewhat - I imagine you have defined it before but can you do it again for me?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Libe(R)topian is an ideology, not a party.

I'll remind you of your dullness, next time you play at being sharp.

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

thanks I need all the reminding I can get. and since I am not sharp what is the verdict on Clinton - you know the next question - our current leader?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

He's an ex President.

He's our current President.

I never met either one of them.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

Trying to get that poster to put that statement in type for all to see is impossible.

The closest I ever got about Obama was "Is Obama a Libe(R)topian? How the hell do I know?"

Close, but couldn't quite get to "screw em all" territory. I see a lot that stuff from Republican voters too. Like to talk about them all being corrupt, but its obvious whats really up.

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

just now reading your comments and the responses below - what a waste of time - I wonder who has time for that type of nonsense - maybe he is a young boy or is slow somehow - I say he but maybe it is she? oh well thanks for letting me know I am wasting my time - I don't need to do that.

[-] 0 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

Its great how Im a libertopian- can't say corporatism or fascism, those are forbidden words- even though most of the stuff I advocate for is way more community based than the two of em.

Besides, judging from the way they treat and stalk people, is there any doubt these two have no intention of helping a soul and are just chaotic shit stirrers?

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

a pr hack I never would have guessed - well you hit the nail on the head here - Trying to get that poster to put that statement in type for all to see is impossible - he is an idiot - good to know now I do not need to respond to any thing he says. local and community based is the way to go. I read a book called "transition" - I think any way about the transition movement in the uk - very interesting

[Removed]

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

You're a PR hack with ties to libe(R)tarian federalists.

STRESS.....................PR hack.

You have no intention of helping anyone but your self, by advancing the agenda you're paid to advance..

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Aww, such a cute little libe(R)tarian PR hack.

Will you be ignoring your community today?

[-] -3 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

Yes, I am more concerned with what happened with the Boeing deal today.

Do you have anything you would like to add to taht post? Something to think about, past experiences and what to look for in the future?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

You're a libe(R)tarian PR hack.

I've already heard all the anti-union shit from you I can stand.

Take it to your gods at CATO and Heritage where it belongs.

Here's your community, go ahead and ignore it.

http://www.rickscottwatch.blogspot.com/

PR hack!

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

So you have no comments on the most recent union negotiations, what went wrong, what could have been avoided, possible things to do different next time...

Nothing?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Not for a PR hack.

Libe(R)topianism is what's gone wrong all over the Planet.

BTW. Pretty good ignore your community...Again.

http://wepartypatriots.com/wp/2014/01/02/wisconsin-education-unions-lose-certification-as-non-votes-called-no-votes-under-act-10/

That's the libe(R)tarian future YOU endorse.

You should go now...........again.

[-] -1 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

Well then don't do it for me, do it for anyone that might be reading this thing- whoever the two of you don't chase out immediately- sees that there are some real conversations going on that are spoken from experience and not MSM talking points.

Ideally, the traffic here is a bit more than those that just post. What percentage of all visitors actually post comments on a website, roughly, Mr Moderator? Do you even understand your job?

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

How you doin' for sale libertopian pr man?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Sorry no. I'm tired of your puppets.

As well as your refusal to admit what they've done to the forum.

Just like trashy did.

Take your PR shit elsewhere....hack!

ALL complaints about mods are to be sent to jart, not used as a basis for concern trolling.

Unless of course you've tired of your current puppet, once again, Mr. Libe(R)tarian PR hack.

[-] -2 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

Let me humble you a bit and remind you that the forum- and it's purpose- are just sliiiiiightly bigger than you, or me, or any individual on it.

Its about the messaging, the platform, and do people who are cruising the internet looking for real conversations by real people, do they come here and say "ah ha! This is great"... Or do they come and see a lot of mud slinging, dumb nicknames and all the usual nonsense.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

[-] 4 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 19 minutes ago

You literally have sat on this site all day...

Bitching, whining and attacking other posters.

Its a unanimous agreement at this point by the few that come here regularly that your goal is to destroy the site.

You ban WindyAcres? The comment on Builders thread about you was removed.

Why did you do that?

Why do you hate democracy so much? And openness? ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink


Hey look-it's the PR Firm libertopian whore. How cool are you?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

You're a PR hack.

One that called the 99% asses.

So it's who YOU want to fling mud at??

You have nothing honest to offer. Like any other troll, you never did.

You should have stuck with Alex Jones and the John Birch society.

At least that was honest.

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

The above message was paid for by libertopians.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 months ago

Trickle down is so slow - the eel-ite don't worry about getting diaper rash.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

It was a misnomer.

It's all about trickle up to the 1%.

You didn't think they'd actually work for anything, did you?.

[-] 4 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 months ago

No it don't trickle upwards at all - it gets hoovered up.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Yep, right out of my pocket and from my States taxes.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 months ago

You still have a pocket? You Lucky Man. Don't noise that about.

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Well yeah, there's just nothing in them, besides small change and a snot rag.

[-] 3 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 months ago

sHhhhhhhhhhhhhh you want em to come take that as well?

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

I'll give 'em all the boogers they want.............LOL

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 11 months ago

Yep - I would deliver it as a hawked-up lugey.

[-] -2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

So - have you got a drink problem ?!!! You certainly behave as if you do !! You don't dictate a fkng thing that I say but you have clearly started the year as you mean to go on ! Were the links too much for you & are the 'Midterms' acting like a splinter on your mind - already ? Maybe you'd be much better off with :

I've come home to a bunch of 'grey boxes' from you and will get to each in turn after I've eaten and had a 'smoke'. You may as well get the rest of your cheap scotch - it could be a long & intoxicating night, lol ! Btw, d'u understand what ''excerpted and abridged'' means & where did I blame the 'exceptional' nation ?

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Oh boy another accusation.

I did already say no, so should I assume you have comprehension issues?

To go along with your community issues?

Don't worry.

I can help.

While you're busy bitching about the cost of education in the US, your community at home is actually reacting to the same issue in your own back yard.

Libe(R)topians, attacking the commons.

Gosh, if only you'd listen.

http://www.occupy.com/article/protests-grow-britain-tax-corporations-rich-fund-free-education

Perhaps they too, are all a bunch of right wingers?

Are all your grey boxes made out of ticky tacky?

I ask, because they all look just the same.

And they ain't that pretty at all.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

So who's ''bitching'' and where shooz ?! Is it a zero-sum game how the 0.01% Parasite Class and their Neoliberal Austerity policies treat the USUK 99% ?!! Never mind 'drink' - are you on 'drugs', lol and why does it irk you so much when I comment on US matters ?!!! How long have I been here now shooz,huh?

Look - no links but seeing as tho' you don't look at or address mine .. remind me again why I should be addressing yours ? Furthermore, can you see and understand why I (and possibly others) don't engage with your forum-posts and are your plans to entice and trap me here working out for you ?

Desist from being such a petty, petulant, parochial person please, there's a good chap :-)

temet nosce ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

"So who's ''bitching'' and where shooz"

You!

All over the place.

Por favor deja de insultarme en su cada post.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

To further 'The Internationalist Theme' of The 99% Struggle, I will append for others readers if not u :

''The popular movements are often led or inspired by extraordinary women - the likes of Medha Patkar, Binalakshmi Nepram, Dr. Vandana Shiva and Arundhati Roy - and they demonstrate that the poor and vulnerable need not be weak. This is India's enduring gift to the world, and those with corrupted power ignore it at their peril.''

Consider these ladies and contrast them with the 'Neocon / Likud' supporting & ever-snarling 'GF' and ask yourself how we came to be in this position on the forum and what your own part in this state of affairs is. Is this an acceptable situation ? Do we need to change it ? What does jart think of all this ?

YOU were the one who consistently tried to reference my ''soul'' (which btw, I find very presumptuous and insulting) ; You are very quick to insult ; you use your ''soap opera of the banned & Libe(R)topian'' terminology & insist others should go along with this {like Mr.'BridgeToTheGround/TwinkleTeam'}- and so, u shooz - r u now down to just your sox [& block downvoting]. Pretty sad & unhealthy really, imo.

I understand enough Spanish to decypher your latest crypto-comment and will do so IF u do so too ~

et nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

I actually haven't at all.

It's you who refuses to have a reasonable conversation.

It's you who has injected inventiveness.

In fact, you did it again in this post. Several times over.

Plus you're still refusing to deal with the subject at hand.

Attempting to change the subject, over and over and over.

Muy triste.

Reitero.

Por favor deja de insultarme en su cada post.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

''I actually haven't at all'' is an answer to what exactly ?!!! I seem to manage a ''reasonable conversation'' with a whole host of people here now and in the past, so I do wonder what the problem may be with u ?!! Go on, let me cue u up for a further post bump - when I ask you to remind me of what it is you consider to be - ''the subject at hand'' ?!

''The plutocrats are shamelessly autocratic and greed-obsessed, and believe themselves to be chosen by God to rule our lives. But they are partially blind to the consequences of their power-hungry policies. History tells us that when the tipping point has been reached in an organized social movement, revolutionary fervor and solutions can work their political magic with surprising quickness.''

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

You no longer seem to do reasonable conversation, unless you get to define, "reasonable".

Unless your sources get to define terminology.

Unless you get to insult.

Unless you get to ignore your own community.

Engedje el az összeesküvés. Ők nem jó.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

All the uses of the 'second person' here are all actually about the 'first person' really !!!

Now, do try to think about that please shooz !! Pretty please .... with extra sprinkles !

So shooz, what know you of my sense of ''community'' and as fracking is breaking out all over The UK, Europe and indeed across The World right now, what know you of what else I do other than countering would-be co-opting Democrats and Neocons on this forum ? Is my commenting on this forum about the US & other matters, actually offensive to you shooz ? Btw, per link abv.- I've been pushing Ms. Flowers here for a long time :

fiat lux ...

[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Oh please no.

Not the fucking co-opting bullshit.....AGAIN!

Like all that crap about moveon.org!!

Plus there's you.............................ignoring your community all over again.

. עזוב הקאבל

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Guess what shooz, tho' I may not really know anything much about moveon.org ... I consider u to be in my community even tho' u clearly don't consider me to be in yours !!! Now go figure just what that might mean because I ain't going anywhere any time soon - despite what you may wish !! If you're saying that there is no-one trying to co-opt this forum then there's always 'JiffySquid / WendySmith' of course, lol !!!

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Guess what shadz?

Your groupies await you.

I didn't say it. You did.

Strange though, that I've never seen you go after "neocons", like you do liberals.

In fact, you didn't mention 'a' one of 'em.

. צעד למטה המלוכה שלך ועזוב את הקאבל

[Removed]

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Your use of Hebrew here is not right. You should actually stop that. To see me go after 'Neocons', just 'user:search' my moniker. I also ''go after'' - Neoliberals, faux-liberals & Conservative-Democrats btw ;-)

I told u before - we don't post here on your sufferance - despite what u may think. Go see if u can find ..

pax, shaantii, salaam, shalom ...

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

I have to admit that I do not have the time or interest to really read through all of this but I do not get it! where the hell are the girl and shooz coming from? your first response to his post is correct and I do not see what any ows supporter can complain about. ok, I give up - nice job again.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

LOL !!! But how can you and I be having this exchange just now IF as GF would have it - we are one and the same ?!! So we've gotta giggle and stumble on flip ! Don't ''give up'' and here for your later perusal, is insight into why :

''In addition to protest, opportunities need to be created for widespread civic involvement in projects that put the people at odds with the current system. These citizen involvement programs need to reflect the movement’s values and goals and the full range of the new world the movement wants to create. The movement should be putting forth a bold vision, a new paradigm, and larger demands beyond mere reforms of the status quo.''

verb. sat. sap. ...

[-] 6 points by gsw (2740) 11 months ago

This article is the best plan for change I had seen.

Excerpt

"“The movement must consciously undergo a transformation from spontaneous protest, operating in a short-term crisis, to a long-term popular struggle to achieve positive social change. It needs to win over . . . an increasingly larger majority of the populace and involve many of them in the process of opposition and change. . . The majority stage is a long process of eroding the social, political, and economic supports that enable the powerholders to continue their policies. It is a slow process of social transformation that creates a new social and political consensus, reversing those of normal times.” During this phase, the movement must transform from a “loose” organizational model to an “empowerment” model. This requires more structure but in order to be effective and create lasting change, it must follow the principles of being “participatory democratic, efficient, flexible, and capable of lasting over the long haul.” The movement must avoid becoming a “professional opposition organization” (i.e. avoid becoming part of the system or a member of the non-profit, professional complex). The movement must avoid becoming a mainstream group working for “achievable” reforms, focusing on elections and partisanship; instead they must remain “principled dissent groups” advocating for what is right, not what is possible, continuing to protest and resist and be based in the grassroots. Leaders must be “nurturing mothers, not dominant patriarchs.” The focus at this stage should be grass roots organizing to build a broad-based pluralistic movement. The primary goals are educating, converting, and involving all segments of the population through a variety of means but most importantly through direct contacts at the local level to show people how the big social injustices of our era – the unfair and corrupt economy as well as the dysfunctional and corrupt government – affect them directly. It is important during this phase for the movement to continue to have nonviolent actions, rallies, and campaigns, including civil disobedience at key points of time and key locations – even though the size of protests will be smaller than during the “Take-Off” phase. In addition to protest, opportunities need to be created for widespread civic involvement in projects that put the people at odds with the current system. These citizen involvement programs need to reflect the movement’s values and goals and the full range of the new world the movement wants to create. The movement should be putting forth a bold vision, a new paradigm, and larger demands beyond mere reforms of the status quo. Moyers describes a grand strategy that includes 12 phases that lead to Stage 7, “Success.” Throughout this process it is important to remember a movement is only as powerful as its grassroots base and therefore must continue to nourish, support and empower that base. During this phase the movement participants switch roles from being “rebels” to being “change agents.” The 12 phases are to (1) Keep the issues on the political and social agenda; (2) Win majority support against current policies; (3) Cause powerholders to change strategy although they do not solve problems; (4) Counter each change in strategy by showing it is a gimmick, not a solution; (5) Push powerholders to new strategies that take riskier positions and make it harder to hold old positions; (6) Create strategic campaigns that erode support for the powerholders; (7) Expand policy goals as the movement realizes the problems are greater than was evident; (8) Develop stronger and deeper opposition to current policies; (9) Promote solutions and a paradigm shift; (10) Win majority support for the movement’s solutions; (11) Put the issues on the political and legal agendas; (12) Finally, the powerholders change positions to appear to get in line with public opinion while attacking the movement and its solutions (e.g. passing a Wall Street health law that claims to cover everyone while demonizing single payer health care which would be universal as too extreme). Opposition to current policies will quickly grow to 60%, then rise to 70% or 75%. Support for the movement’s alternatives will grow more slowly during this time, with the public split on the alternatives. The movement must build public support for the alternatives to achieve success. "

Stay together everyone. ;)

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

''This article is the best plan for change I had seen.'' & ''Stay together everyone''. Blessings on & from u. Many thanx and solidarity for your gracious words and excellent extract 'gsw' and fraternal good wishes to you and yours for 2014 and beyond.

pax vobis. ...

[-] 0 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

thanks - I have no plans to give up - I keep pushing in mu own small (ok, very small) way. how often I come to this site is a question - time is limited - I may just come for your latin quotes to send to my student!

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Solidarity and with ref. to what you do and what you say - docendo discimus & I'm sad u were stinkled.

pax, amor et lux ; hic, nunc et semper ...

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

now I am depressed - I don't notice twinkles or stinkles but now that you pointed it out I will have trouble overcoming it! since you mentioned it why would anyone stinkle what I said - I didn't really say anything! are shooz and the sad girl mainstream dems - is that the point of contention? I did have a number of discussions with Obama supporters in the park - they were respectful of my opinions and mostly were in agreement as to long term goals. we disagreed on tactics mostly - they were more hopeful and maybe naïve about mainstream politics.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Lame Stream Politrix is taking The US down towards the 'F' word flip. Same situation in UK & Europe but they aren't as Militarised as The US (cf. Wm. Blum link abv.)

Don't be glum mate. It is this weather we all are having - that and the lack of sunlight. Did you get my li'l latin phrase and joke up there (cf. 'd d') ? Despite being in a rush now, I'm going to PM you something !!

Onwards and upwards flip & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKBwuuIDu9I - ''Make Love Your Goal'' !!!

Be well, warm and wise flip & "Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow." (Albert Einstein)

'per aspera ad astra' et 'dum spiro spero' ...

[-] 1 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

I think we need to revise the quote - ''The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers,'' to economists! ok, mainstream economists - ok, I didn't really mean kill them how about put a sock in their mouths. make them work an assembly line for minimum wage - do you know max neef? I have edited it since I know you are busy also - AMY GOODMAN: What do you think we need to change? MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Oh, almost everything. We are simply, dramatically stupid. We act systematically against the evidences we have. We know everything that should not be done. There’s nobody that doesn’t know that. Particularly the big politicians know exactly what should not be done. Yet they do it. After what happened since October 2008, I mean, elementally, you would think what? That now they’re going to change. I mean, they see that the model is not working. The model is even poisonous, you know? Dramatically poisonous. And what is the result, and what happened in the last meeting of the European Union? They are more fundamentalist now than before. So, the only thing you know that you can be sure of, that the next crisis is coming, and it will be twice as much as this one. And for that one, there won’t be enough money anymore. So that will be it. And that is the consequence of systematical human stupidity. AMY GOODMAN: So, to avoid another catastrophe, collision, if you were in charge, what would you say has to happen? MANFRED MAX-NEEF: First of all, we need cultured economists again, who know the history, where they come from, how the ideas originated, who did what, and so on and so on; second, an economics now that understands itself very clearly as a subsystem of a larger system that is finite, the biosphere, hence economic growth as an impossibility; and third, a system that understands that it cannot function without the seriousness of ecosystems. And economists know nothing about ecosystems. They don’t know nothing about thermodynamics, you know, nothing about biodiversity or anything. I mean, they are totally ignorant in that respect. And I don’t see what harm it would do, you know, to an economist to know that if the bees would disappear, he would disappear as well, because there wouldn’t be food anymore. But he doesn’t know that, you know, that we depend absolutely from nature. But for these economists we have, nature is a subsystem of the economy. I mean, it’s absolutely crazy. And then, in addition, you know, bring consumption closer to production. I live in the south of Chile, in the deep south. And that area is a fantastic area, you know, in milk products and what have you. Top. Technologically, like the maximum, you know? I was, a few months ago, in a hotel, and there in the south, for breakfast, and there are these little butter things, you know? I get one, and it’s butter from New Zealand. I mean, if that isn’t crazy, you know? And why? Because economists don’t know how to calculate really costs, you know? To bring butter from 20,000 kilometers to a place where you make the best butter, under the argument that it was cheaper, is a colossal stupidity, because they don’t take into consideration what is the impact of 20,000 kilometers of transport? What is the impact on the environment of that transportation, you know, and all those things? And in addition, I mean, it’s cheaper because it’s subsidized. So it’s clearly a case in which the prices never tell the truth. It’s all tricks, you know? And those tricks do colossal harms. And if you bring consumption closer to production, you will eat better, you will have better food, you know, and everything. You will know where it comes from. You may even know the person who produces it. You humanize this thing, you know? But the way the economists practice today is totally dehumanized. AMY GOODMAN: And if you’re teaching young economists, the principles you would teach them, what they’d be? MANFRED MAX-NEEF: The principles, you know, of an economics which should be are based in five postulates and one fundamental value principle. One, the economy is to serve the people and not the people to serve the economy. Two, development is about people and not about objects. Three, growth is not the same as development, and development does not necessarily require growth. Four, no economy is possible in the absence of ecosystem services. Five, the economy is a subsystem of a larger finite system, the biosphere, hence permanent growth is impossible. And the fundamental value to sustain a new economy should be that no economic interest, under no circumstance, can be above the reverence of life. AMY GOODMAN: Go back to three: growth and development. Explain that further. MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Growth is a quantitative accumulation. Development is the liberation of creative possibilities. Every living system in nature grows up to a certain point and stops growing. You are not growing anymore, nor he nor me. But we continue developing ourselves. Otherwise we wouldn’t be dialoguing here now. So development has no limits. Growth has limits. And that is a very big thing, you know, that economists and politicians don’t understand. They are obsessed with the fetish of economic growth. And I am working, several decades. Many studies have been done. I’m the author of a famous hypothesis, the threshold hypothesis, which says that in every society there is a period in which economic growth, conventionally understood or no, brings about an improvement of the quality of life. But only up to a point, the threshold point, beyond which, if there is more growth, quality of life begins to decline. And that is the situation in which we are now. I mean, your country is the most dramatic example that you can find. I have gone as far as saying — and this is a chapter of a book of mine that is published next month in England, the title of which is Economics Unmasked. There is a chapter called "The United States, an Underdeveloping Nation," which is a new category. We have developed, underdeveloped and developing. Now you have underdeveloping. And your country is an example, in which the one percent of the Americans, you know, are doing better and better and better, and the 99 percent is going down, in all sorts of manifestations. People living in their cars now and sleeping in their cars, you know, parked in front of the house that used to be their house — thousands of people. Millions of people, you know, have lost everything. But the speculators that brought about the whole mess, oh, they are fantastically well off. No problem. No problem.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

You've got to break that up a li'l please :-) Hit 'edit' & judiciously apply a 'double tap' on the 'enter key' in order to activate the necessary paragraphing ;-)

pax ...

[-] 3 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

sorry - is this easier?AMY GOODMAN: What do you think we need to change?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Oh, almost everything. We are simply, dramatically stupid. We act systematically against the evidences we have. We know everything that should not be done. There’s nobody that doesn’t know that. Particularly the big politicians know exactly what should not be done. Yet they do it. After what happened since October 2008, I mean, elementally, you would think what? That now they’re going to change. I mean, they see that the model is not working. The model is even poisonous, you know? Dramatically poisonous. And what is the result, and what happened in the last meeting of the European Union? They are more fundamentalist now than before. So, the only thing you know that you can be sure of, that the next crisis is coming, and it will be twice as much as this one. And for that one, there won’t be enough money anymore. So that will be it. And that is the consequence of systematical human stupidity.

AMY GOODMAN: So, to avoid another catastrophe, collision, if you were in charge, what would you say has to happen?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: First of all, we need cultured economists again, who know the history, where they come from, how the ideas originated, who did what, and so on and so on; second, an economics now that understands itself very clearly as a subsystem of a larger system that is finite, the biosphere, hence economic growth as an impossibility; and third, a system that understands that it cannot function without the seriousness of ecosystems. And economists know nothing about ecosystems. They don’t know nothing about thermodynamics, you know, nothing about biodiversity or anything. I mean, they are totally ignorant in that respect. And I don’t see what harm it would do, you know, to an economist to know that if the beasts would disappear, he would disappear as well, because there wouldn’t be food anymore. But he doesn’t know that, you know, that we depend absolutely from nature. But for these economists we have, nature is a subsystem of the economy. I mean, it’s absolutely crazy.

And then, in addition, you know, bring consumption closer to production. I live in the south of Chile, in the deep south. And that area is a fantastic area, you know, in milk products and what have you. Top. Technologically, like the maximum, you know? I was, a few months ago, in a hotel, and there in the south, for breakfast, and there are these little butter things, you know? I get one, and it’s butter from New Zealand. I mean, if that isn’t crazy, you know? And why? Because economists don’t know how to calculate really costs, you know? To bring butter from 20,000 kilometers to a place where you make the best butter, under the argument that it was cheaper, is a colossal stupidity, because they don’t take into consideration what is the impact of 20,000 kilometers of transport? What is the impact on the environment of that transportation, you know, and all those things? And in addition, I mean, it’s cheaper because it’s subsidized. So it’s clearly a case in which the prices never tell the truth. It’s all tricks, you know? And those tricks do colossal harms. And if you bring consumption closer to production, you will eat better, you will have better food, you know, and everything. You will know where it comes from. You may even know the person who produces it. You humanize this thing, you know? But the way the economists practice today is totally dehumanized.

AMY GOODMAN: You don’t think the earth will force this different way of thinking, that we’re reaching the end?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Oh, well, yes. Yes. I believe, you know, that — well, there are some important scientists that already are saying, I believe. I have not reached that point yet. But some believe, you know, and state that it’s definite: we are finished. We are finished. In a few more decades, I mean, there will be no humanity anymore. I don’t think we have reached that point of it, but I believe that we are pretty close to it. I’ll say that we already crossed one of the three rivers. And if you look at it and what is happening everywhere, I mean, it’s quite frightening how the amount of catastrophes are increasing all over the place, you know, in all manifestations — storms, earthquakes, you know, volcanoes erupting. I mean, the amount of events is growing dramatically. I mean, it’s really frightening. And we continue with the same.

AMY GOODMAN: What have you learned that gives you hope in the poor communities that you’ve worked in and lived in?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Solidarity of people. You know, respect for the others. Mutual aid. No greed. I mean, that is a value that is absent in poverty. And you would be inclined to think that there should be more there than elsewhere, you know, that greed should be of people who have nothing. No, quite the contrary. The more you have, the more greedy you become, you know. And all this crisis is the product of greed. Greed is the dominant value today in the world. And as long as that persists, well, we are done.

AMY GOODMAN: And if you’re teaching young economists, the principles you would teach them, what they’d be?

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: The principles, you know, of an economics which should be are based in five postulates and one fundamental value principle.

One, the economy is to serve the people and not the people to serve the economy.

Two, development is about people and not about objects.

Three, growth is not the same as development, and development does not necessarily require growth.

Four, no economy is possible in the absence of ecosystem services.

Five, the economy is a subsystem of a larger finite system, the biosphere, hence permanent growth is impossible.

And the fundamental value to sustain a new economy should be that no economic interest, under no circumstance, can be above the reverence of life.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain that further.

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Nothing can be more important than life. And I say life, not human beings, because, for me, the center is the miracle of life in all its manifestations. But if there is an economic interest, I mean, you forget about life, not only of other living beings, but even of human beings. If you go through that list, one after the other, what we have today is exactly the opposite.

AMY GOODMAN: Go back to three: growth and development. Explain that further.

MANFRED MAX-NEEF: Growth is a quantitative accumulation. Development is the liberation of creative possibilities. Every living system in nature grows up to a certain point and stops growing. You are not growing anymore, nor he nor me. But we continue developing ourselves. Otherwise we wouldn’t be dialoguing here now. So development has no limits. Growth has limits. And that is a very big thing, you know, that economists and politicians don’t understand. They are obsessed with the fetish of economic growth.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

''Chilean Economist Manfred Max-Neef on Barefoot Economics, Poverty and Why The U.S. is Becoming an "Underdeveloping Nation" :

I started reading but then got a li'l lazy and switched to listening (with watching optional) and am doing so as I type this. I heard of MMN long time ago but hadn't thought about him for ages. It's an excellent addition here and thanx flip. I used to watch 'DemocracyNow!' almost every day for many years (2003-2010) & it was integral to my understanding of issues in The US but kind of got out of the habit. Could be a good New Year's resolution - revisit previous good habits :-) Gracias amigo y solidaridad siempre.

fiat lux ...

[-] -2 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

The enter key is not the enemy :)

[-] 2 points by flip (7101) 11 months ago

sorry - I actually did that deliberately to tighten it up - silly me - a more readable version is just below in response to shadz - here is one more (very readable?) small bit from Manfred that says it all I think -
MANFRED MAX-NEEF: The Peace Corps, yeah, OK. I was many times in that. I even taught Peace Corps groups, you know, in California and so on and on. Then I found them, you know, in the field when I was there. Lovely young people, you know? I mean, very well-intentioned, you know. And the situations like this.

Well, there you have a woman making a poncho. No, but with another machine, instead of making two ponchos in one week, I mean, she could make 20 ponchos.

So, now, "We will bring you a much better thing."

"Oh, OK, well..."

They bring it in, you know, and come back a few months later, you know, to see a huge production of this woman. And how our young find?

"Oh, how do you like the machine?"

"Oh, very nice."

"And how many ponchos are you making?"

"Well, two ponchos a week."

"What do you mean? You could make much more."

"Well, but I don’t need to make more."

"But why do you make just two? Well, what is the machine then for?"

"Well, I make two, but now I have much more time to be with my friends and with my kids."

In our environment, you know, you have to do more and more and more and more. No, there, instead of making more, they have more time to enjoy themselves, to have a nice relationship with friends, with family, etc. You see? Lovely values which we have lost.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 months ago

it's hard to muster votes without financial backing

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 months ago

It is good to see some university in nation's desires

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Shadz of stank equates You don't dictate a fkng thing that I say with circle jerk arguments. His lithium has not kicked in yet.

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

Hidden in all of it, is an attempt to dictate what I say.

He and many trolls would love to do that.

Some have intimated that I should have no say at all.

That I should not be allowed to offer so much as an opinion.

Many of these were the same folks that originally demanded to know who the mods were.

Now that they have their way, that want me to be a political eunuch?

A man without an opinion?

I guess mods should have remained hidden.

No matter. I welcome their hate.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 months ago

Hidden in all of it, is an attempt to dictate what I say.

well put

but I don't put up with hate

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

I kind of have to.

It goes with the territory.

I'm just surprised sometimes, by who exudes it.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Care to elaborate on any of that - or should we just infer what we will by simply reading this thread ?!

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

It's pretty self explanatory.

Just re-read it and try and understand it.

Aunque celebro su odio, aún señalaré lo.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

''It's pretty self explanatory. Just re-read it and try and understand it.'' ok &

radix omnium malorum est cupiditas ...

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

I really didn't think you could.

Ευχαριστίες για την παραγωγή δεν ψεύτης μου.

[+] -4 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

"Many of these were the same folks that originally demanded to know who the mods were. Now that they have their way, that want me to be a political eunuch? A man without an opinion? I guess mods should have remained hidden."

Funny how power does things like this. The people demanded to know who the decision makers were- seems reasonable to me.

The decisions makers should simply make sure the forum is functioning properly and attempt to create a vibrant community filled with varying opinions from everyone/anyone who has a say in this country. That includes people the moderator doesnt agree with.

Seems reasonable to me.

"I guess the mods should have remained hidden"

Total reactionary thinking. Instead of keeping things as they are, and attempting to hide it in the future, perhaps a different system/platform should be explored?

Seems to make sense to me.

Any activist has to be able to debate and dig against their opponents. Its kind of political knowledge 101. By eliminating all dissenting opinions, not only does the moderator create a fake and not-too-real environment, it is also doing a disservice to those who may some day go onto bigger things.

Granted, the internet is usually more offensive language than in real life- no real face to face contact, cowards love this- but it should still function as close to the real thing as possible.

Being in downtown Tampa, in Florida, we would get people all the time coming by, telling us we were nuts, usually active Republican voters.

Ganging up and out screaming is the easy way out. Create chaos, and simply drown out the dissenter. And it happened a few times. While some felt a sense of victory, others realized this is not the path forward.

And for anyone- such as myself- that has gone into political territory that is not welcoming of you once you open your mouth- seeing the morons get in gang up style makes you realize its a weak way to do things. And if you are patient enough, you can get through the initial nonsense, seek out the real political leaders (usually the ones who are always interested in teaching and listening) and possibly come to some kind of understanding with each other.

Just a few of my experiences. Might do a few people here some good.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

You're a PR Firm. Your economics, your viewpoint is paid for. So, your shit: trolling, instigating is a paid for game. Libertopian.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Hmmm, ''seeing the morons get in gang up style makes you realize its a weak way to do things.''

Thus consider that if they have to muzzle dissent, they only prove that their own positions cannot be defended. Thanx for excerpting and sharing your perspective and experience. Much food for thought.

In compliment, I quote the following : ''Politicians and their associates in the corporate media are master manipulators of language and images. Any time you hear them speak - think of Plato’s 'Allegory of the Cave' ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave). Virtually everything that we see and hear, nearly everything we have been told, is an officious lie, an illusion created to deceive and control us. The purpose of deception is to promote the dogma and welfare of those in power, while implicitly disempowering those who are being deceived. Language is rarely, if ever, neutral. Coercive ideology lurks behind every sentence.'' from :

''Armed with this knowledge, perhaps we may finally begin the vital work of our individual and collective emancipation. Our subordinate role in this unequal economic, social, and political arrangement must be challenged and subverted. No one is born a slave.''

veritas vos liberabit ...

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

You're right - skulking about in the margins eventually gets you noticed !

So, have you got any more 'Neocon / Likudnik' links I can disassemble ?

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

You didn't disassemble the last ones, bitch. You ran around in circles putting up a wall of shit. I told you to go fuck yourself. That's pretty much it.

I can tell you to go fuck yourself again if you really need it.

[-] 0 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

I think Mr. S. Freud would have a thing or two to say there !!!

It really is checkmate - IF you melt down so easily !!

See ya ... wouldn't wanna be ya or with ya !

et nosce te ipsum ...

[-] 4 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 11 months ago

It was checkmate days ago.

I must say, though, that I thoroughly enjoyed watching the game. And I actually learned a thing or two, so for me, it was a win-win.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Watching you lick his ass is even more amusing.

[-] 3 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 11 months ago

That'd be a toughy considering he's half a world away from me. But in a classic "give 'em enough rope to hang themselves," I completely enjoyed you being outed as a closet right-wing neo-con Israeli apologist. That was a welcome addition to your already well-known anti-99% leanings ("people that grow gardens are idiots"), giving us all a much fuller picture of the real "GirlFriday."

Hey, didja know there are tens of millions of people worldwide that rely on family and community gardens as one of their primary, if not sole, food source? Solidarity, sweetheart.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Ya, half a world away? You're in the Gene Simmons category.

I want to show you something. Social media campaign ‘#notamartyr’ seeks to challenge taboos

See that? Here let me pull this out for you because of the perpetual ignorance. BEIRUT: “Refuse to live in fear. Refuse to live a life where you may die a martyr. Refuse to live in violence. Add #notamartyr to ur tweets #Lebanon.”The short message from a brand new Twitter account, @notamartyr, was probably seen by just a handful of people when it was first tweeted just before 7 p.m. on Dec. 30. A week later, the Lebanese online world was splattered with the hashtag #notamartyr, and the movement’s Facebook group had attracted nearly 5,000 likes.

“We began the initiative when a few of us got together after the Shatah bombing,” said one of the campaign’s co-founders, Muhannad, referring to the Dec. 27 killing of former Finance Minister Mohammad Shatah and seven others.

“We were all pretty disturbed by it and wanted to find something to do.”

Don't forget it. Within a short period of time, you and your cohorts will be cooing over it. You will fill the forum with your it's all about love bullshit like you all of a sudden get it. You don't. But, you will.

I want to show you something else. A Brooklyn community garden that stood for 16 years in Coney Island and spread over 70,000 square feet was razed in the dead of night on Saturday, December 28. The secret bulldozing of the garden is to make way for a pet project of Marty Markowitz’s: Coney Island’s $53 million Seaside Park and Community Arts Center. link
If you don't own the property, you're screwed. Two, you cannot feed a family of five with a bathtub garden. Three, do not tell people to just give up and drop out. Four, do not tell people especially homeless people that you are going to teach them how to do for themselves. Why? Go back to one.

Silly fuckers.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 11 months ago

Yeah, it's only about a quarter of the way around the world, so ya got me there, GF. Bravo. And I have no clue WTF "Gene Simmons Club" means, but true to form, I'm sure it's just another baseless insult.

Here's the deal. I have little interest in the Israli-Palestinian situation. I really don't. With due respect to the victims on both sides of that fence, and much respect to the forum members who are so passionate about it, it's just not my thing. I can count on one hand the times I've commented on that situation and anyway, my interests lie elsewhere. I have no vested interest in that particular situation. Consequently, (a) your #notamartyr Twitter / FB campaign means zero to me and proves absolutely nothing, (b) I went into reading your exchange with shadz with no preconceived notions and (c) your statement about "you and your cohorts will be cooing over it" is just more b.s. I can pretty much guarantee with almost 100% certainty that it won't even enter into my conversations.

And if memory serves me right (and it usually does) it seems to me you were of that ilk that, in the earlier days, thought dealing with issues half a world away was a waste of time for "Occupy Wall Street" so I find your recent "pivot" to the Middle East somewhat puzzling. Change of paymasters, perhaps?

Now let's break down the rest of your fact-free comment and maybe it'll clear some of your head fog. "A Brooklyn community garden that stood for 16 years in Coney Island and spread over 70,000 square feet was razed in the dead of night on Saturday, December 28." So fucking what? You come across a random article on Care2 (yeah, I saw it too) and that article confirms your oft-repeated statement that community garden advocates are all morons? Are you for real?

http://www.blog.urbanoaks.org/

Just for grins I called their number today to see if they were still in business, and guess what? They are. Begun in 1999 and still going strong almost 15 years later. Tit for tat. There are plenty of success stories out there, if you'd just bother to look.

You seem to miss the entire concept of community gardens in the first place. No one ever suggested they'd topple Monsanto, solve climate change and feed the fucking world. They're one single tool in the toolbox. They take a small fraction of control away from the multinationals and place it back in the hands of the people, plus supply a small percentage of organics to the local community. And just as important, if not more so, they're about building and/or strengthening community bonds, and teaching the young, who, by and large, can't tell the difference in nutritional value between an apple and a Snickers bar.

And that doesn't even address the millions worldwide that absolutely depend on them. Consider this statistic: ". . .the industrial farming that is supposed to be feeding the world in practice provides only 30% of the world’s food. Another 20% comes from fishing, hunting, and people’s back gardens – and the remaining 50% comes from the mostly small, mostly mixed traditional farms that the industrialists and their political assistants tell us are an anachronism, . ."

Consider that 20% in bold. Let's assume that the biggest portion of that 20% relied on fishing and hunting and only 1% of the world's people relied on "back gardens." That's 70 million people worldwide. Even if it were .25%, we're talking roughly the population of greater LA. Why not tell those millions, and especially their children, that they're all idiots.

Yeah, keep telling people to keep buying all their fruits and veggies from Walmart, because God forbid more people join the ranks of the unemployed. Gotta keep feeding the machine and keeping the economy purring along. How very corporatist and status-quo of you.

And finally, to the rest of your nonsense: "Two, you cannot feed a family of five with a bathtub garden." No shit, Sherlock. No one, especially not I, ever said it could. See above.

"Three, do not tell people to just give up and drop out." Never said that in my entire time here. NEVER.

"Four, do not tell people especially homeless people that you are going to teach them how to do for themselves." I reiterate: never said that in my entire time here. NEVER.

I know it's hard for you guys, but try sticking to what people actually say, lest you look desperate and stupid.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

They will speak only in whispers about your witlessness long after you die screaming.

You guys lost this game awhile back. You're done.

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by unicycle (0) from Linden, NJ 11 months ago

It's so refreshing to read a well written comment full of information and free from the childish insults based on ass talk we read all the time here.

You seem to miss the entire concept of community gardens in the first place. No one ever suggested they'd topple Monsanto, solve climate change and feed the fucking world. They're one single tool in the toolbox. They take a small fraction of control away from the multinationals and place it back in the hands of the people, plus supply a small percentage of organics to the local community. And just as important, if not more so, they're about building and/or strengthening community bonds, and teaching the young, who, by and large, can't tell the difference in nutritional value between an apple and a Snickers bar.

That paragraph is right on the money. Yes, just one tool. So what if it's small scale. I agree. And like you say at the end, it's also about getting people to talk to each other, to build communities.

Anyone who's against community gardens doesn't understand Occupy at all. That's one of the easiest and most fun ways to start building a community.

My advice to everyone here is to stop wasting your time with the twinkle team. They are only here to troll. I admire shadz66 for sticking up to shooz. Someone has to do it I guess. However, in the end, what does it achieve? It seems to me a waste of time and just encourages more trolling from shooz and GF which keeps soiling the site. Best is to ignore. Personally, I'd rather read interesting comments and posts from shadz66 dealing with serious issues, instead of fighting in vain against shooz and GF trolling. When people here concentrate on what matters, they usually have interesting comments to read.

Thanks for your great contribution.

It's a real shame the twinkle team banned you and now are stinkling you. You are Occupy, not them. Don't give up! Don't let them take over this site.

[-] 1 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 11 months ago

Thanks for all that, and those stinkles no longer bother me. I'm pretty sure the 'true' OWS community on here will upvote my comment if they see fit. Stinkling good comments is nothing but an act of desperation anyway.

[-] -2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Hey, look it's our multiple ID troll.

[-] -2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Here's the deal. It wasn't a baseless insult. You're a prick. That's the base.

This one is big. This right here: And if memory serves me right (and it usually does) it seems to me you were of that ilk that, in the earlier days, thought dealing with issues half a world away was a waste of time for "Occupy Wall Street" so I find your recent "pivot" to the Middle East somewhat puzzling.

Is a lie. I expect that from you. But, it's a lie none the less. I have been posting on international relations and issues since I arrived.

This right here: You come across a random article on Care2 (yeah, I saw it too) and that article confirms your oft-repeated statement that community garden advocates are all morons? Are you for real?

Is another fucking lie. But, you're a douche and I expect it.

What's the difference between Urban Oaks Farm and that which was destroyed in New York, the ones in Chicago in 2010 or the one's in Detroit this past year? Huh? I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-fdas-christmas-present-for-factory-farms/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/farm-bill-update-new-year-but-same-old-shenanigans/

http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-great-hunger-lottery-food-speculation-report/

and that leaves us with this: And finally, to the rest of your nonsense: "

Then I guess you better take that up with your alleged little food activists that you are hell bent on defending on the forum. Fuck you and your merry band of shills.

[-] 0 points by gnomunny (6885) from St Louis, MO 11 months ago

Nope, I'm not playing your bullshit games. You're lucky you got one reply from me seeing as I wasn't talking to you in the first place. You see, I'm of the "best to ignore them" crowd. And I don't give a fuck whether you got that article from Care2 or Truthout, or Huffpo. Or your local rag. So fucking what? You think I don't read your comments? You've been calling the "community garden" crowd morons for weeks, at least. That ain't no lie, babe.

Now go play elsewhere.

[-] -3 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

I see someone is keepin it classy as usual.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Says the dirt bag PR firm that is paid to spew the shit he does.

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[-] 3 points by fastcars (2) from New York, NY 11 months ago

As Narley stated in another thread, shooz and GF are just cyber bullies. The best thing we can do for OWS and this forum is to all make a vow to ignore them completely. They will get bored. This twinkle team I heard about is very destructive. Been reading what they post. Horrible. The opposite of what OWS is all about.

[-] 1 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/federalist-society-for-law-and-public-policy-studi/

It's called follow the money, dirtbag.

Keep downvoting.

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

http://occupywallst.org/forum/federalist-society-for-law-and-public-policy-studi/

It's called follow the money, dirtbag.

Keep downvoting.

[-] 2 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Whose melting down? You seem to think I give a damn what you think. I don't. You're flat out fucking ignorant.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

So let us all hark thee now, our lady 'Madam Toilet-Mouth', for thou dost protest too strongly and without basis in either truth or reality me thinks. Every time u reply to me, u only make a rod for your own back !

Here's just one small but clear example of where you certainly seemed to ''give a damn'' what I thought :

'Pignurant' ?! U mean moi - or iz dat mwah ?!! Iz dat coz I woz never reely one ov those dat did do much of that their buk lurning thaang, ma'am? Btw, it's ''Who's melting down?'' + 'Whose' idea was this post ?

docendo discimus ...

[-] 0 points by GirlFriday (17435) 11 months ago

Pfft. You look stupid. Odin looked even more stupid. And the most beautiful thing of all: Everybody else saw it.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Would you know a ''beautiful thing'' if you ever saw it, I wonder & btw - ''stupid'' is as 'stupid' does, eg :

multum in parvo ...

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[-] -1 points by AlwaysIntoSomething (42) 11 months ago

haha

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[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 months ago

Got to love George Galloway! I've been listening to your link as I make a few comments here now & boy, could the UK & US do with more people like him. I've copied this to you elsewhere but it works here too:

http://www.nationofchange.org/2013-resistance-report-year-review-1388508474 & also in compliment -

http://www.nationofchange.org/year-struggles-climate-education-and-marriage-equality-inspire-hope-2014-1388679542

Everyone should read Zinn's book. Never Give Up! Occupy 2014! Solidarity & A Happy New Year To All.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Very nice '2013 Resistance Report' round ups :-) Listening to 1st link as I type and will follow with Amy Goodman's 2nd link, later + fyi :

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 months ago

The follow up piece to that great article - http://www.nationofchange.org/tasks-people-powered-movement-2014-1389020508 - What's up with the forum? Never Give Up! Go Occupy! Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

Brilliant Find !!! Thanx !! Used it already too ! @ 'sff80' here :

NB : There is 'NOTHING' ''up with the forum'' !!!

More accurately ''Nothing - that we didn't know'' !!

Just keep posting - strong & HNY 4 '14 @ u & yrs !

consilio et animis ...

[-] 5 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 months ago

Great link to a great thread & in compliment - http://www.nationofchange.org/make-no-mistake-you-are-american-debt-slave-1389886420 HNY 2 u 2 :) Never Give Up Exposing The Parasites! Occupy Wall Street! Solidarity

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

“The rich will strive to establish their dominion and enslave the rest. They always did. They always will … They will have the same effect here as elsewhere, if we do not, by (the power of) government, keep them in their proper spheres.” (Governor Morris, co-author of the U.S. Constitution in 1787) & also from your excellent link :

''This system doesn’t just affect those on welfare, the jobless, and the homeless. It also affects you. Don’t be fooled into thinking that you aren’t next in line. First the poor, then the middle-class. If this banking system is allowed to continue, there will be only two ‘classes’ or ‘castes’ – the elite and the slave. Nearly a third of Americans now either live in ‘rich or poor’ neighborhoods according to a Stanford University report. Are you tired of being a slave for the polluting, greedy corporate paradigm, which is really just the ruling elite in the Emperor’s Clothes?'' Thus I append & recommend the following :

''it's time to abandon the fantasy of a steady-state capitalism, go back to the drawing boards and come up with a real "new macro-economic model," a practical, workable post-capitalist ecological economy, an economy by the people, for the people that is geared to production for need, not for profit. "Socialism"? "Economic democracy"? Call it what you like. But what other choice do we have? Either we save capitalism or we save ourselves. We can't save both.'' Never Give Up !!! OWS !! Solidarity !

e tenebris, lux ...

[-] 1 points by Ache4Change (3340) 11 months ago

Yes - 'it's time to abandon the fantasy of a steady-state capitalism' - because there's No Such Thing! LOL! Thanks for another great article and also consider -

http://www.nationofchange.org/economic-inequality-widening-gap-between-rich-and-poor-1390404239

http://www.nationofchange.org/austerity-abundance-why-i-am-running-california-treasurer-1390404698

http://www.nationofchange.org/gov-t-used-surveillance-mlk-bid-destroy-him-now-they-want-us-just-trust-them-1390403247

We need Light In The Darkness! Never Give Up! Occupy The Future! Solidarity.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 11 months ago

''The REAL problem, which is the cause of the accelerated growth of economic inequality, is that the system, as presently structured, empowers a narrow group of Americans to CONCENTRATE OWNERSHIP of wealth-creating, income-producing capital assets––the non-human factor of production (primarily productive structures, machines, tools, super-automation, robotics, digital computerized operations, etc.). Productive capital is non-human and is the result of technological progress, which never ceases to march forward as it makes jobs in every sector of the economy more scarce.''

So ''why nor advocate for broadened ownership of the FUTURE wealth-creating, income-producing capital assets of corporations growing the economy so that EVERY child, woman and man can benefit as an OWNER and secure a source of income produced by the non-human assets of corporate production? In this way we can put America on a path to prosperity, opportunity and economic justice as we build a future economy that can support general affluence for EVERY American and eliminate over time the wide economic inequality that the present system facilitates.''

''We are fighting over a pie that remains too small. The pie itself needs to be expanded – and it can be.How ? By reclaiming that portion that is now siphoned off in interest and bank fees. When tallied up at every stage of production, interest has been calculated to claim one-third of everything we buy. How can that money be recaptured ? By owning the bank.''

''The approach was pioneered in North Dakota, the only state to escape the 2008 banking crisis. North Dakota has the lowest unemployment rate in the country, the lowest foreclosure rate, the lowest default rate on credit card debt, and no state debt at all. It is also the only state to own its own bank.''

~

The 1st & 2nd paras were taken from your 1st link (re.Economic Inequality) and the 3rd & 4th from your 2nd link (Ellen Brown). I found your 3rd link by Juan Cole, too creepy to quote tho'! Thanx very much for these excellent linked articles and I wholeheartedly recommend all three items - to any and all readers.

I am thrilled by the prospect of Ellen Brown running for public office as I think that we - The 99% have a huge amount to learn from that lady and that 1st linked article by Gary Reber will reward a close and/or 2nd read. Solidarity to you and in compliment :

fiat lux ...

[-] 3 points by Ache4Change (3340) 10 months ago

'The Trifecta of Evils' by Glen Ford was a great piece. I read it and e-mailed it about. Thanks and in compliment - http://www.nationofchange.org/fear-why-workers-red-states-vote-against-their-economic-self-interest-1389970786 by Robert Reich. Never Give Up On The 99%! Occupy The 1%! Solidarity :)

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

"'A Silent Coup' : Jeremy Scahill & Bob Herbert on Corporate, Military Interests Shaping Obama's SOTU'' by Amy Goodman :

From your excellent 'NoC' link, Robert Reich says : ''The best bulwark against corporate irresponsibility is a strong and growing middle class. But in order to summon the political will to achieve it, we have to overcome the timidity that flows from economic desperation. It’s a diabolical chicken-and-egg conundrum at a the core of American politics today.''

Scahill & Reich have strong points that overlap when seen through the lens of Glen Ford's piece and I think that you'll get how and why. Finally, re. Scahill's award winning 'Dirty War'' documentary, see :

minima maxima sunt ...

[-] 5 points by Ache4Change (3340) 10 months ago

'Dirty War' is a powerful, Oscar nominated film and I watched it at the weekend via your 'ich' link but although the trailer still runs, the full film has been pulled by the copyright capos.

In compliment of the doc and the excellent Scahill interview with Amy Goodman, see - http://www.nationofchange.org/menace-military-mind-1391610662 by Chris Hedges.

'Its long-established hierarchy ensures that those who embrace the approved modes of behavior rise and those who do not are belittled, insulted and hazed.'

The smallest things are indeed the biggest - and most important. Never Give Up! Occupy The Issues! Solidarity.

[-] 5 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

Jeremy Scahill's ''Dirty Wars'' film is second to none and even this year's Oscar Committee has had to entertain that notion but the limp wristed chicken hawks probably won't have the balls to give his work [ http://dirtywars.org/ ] the recognition it deserves. Sorry about the above link to the full film but hey-ho & that's the way it goes. I've read the Hedges article already but thanx anyway & in compliment I append :

fiat lux et fiat pax ...

[-] 4 points by Ache4Change (3340) 10 months ago

Your link to Scahill's 'Dirty Wars' still works. Hope he gets his well deserved Oscar. Jeremy Scahill in partnership with Glenn Greenwald, Laura Poitras and others - has an excellent and important new web-site - https://firstlook.org/theintercept Great link to an excellent thread about Iran btw so thanks :) Never Give On Shining A 'Light For Peace'! Occupy The Issues! Solidarity.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 10 months ago

Thanx re. https://firstlook.org/theintercept !!! I'm aware of it & have had cause to use it !! Solidarity & fyi : http://www.socialistalternative.org/ !

per aspera ad astra ...

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22162) 10 months ago

"Suicides increase dramatically among Michigan's middle-aged population; 14 percent higher than national average"

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2013/05/suicides_increase_dramatically.html

Suicide is very sad, isn't it?

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

It follows in the wake of libe(R)tarians and their apartheid.

I've been trying to tell ya'.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (22162) 10 months ago

The true root of the problem is capitalism and the alienation of human beings that it leaves in its wake.

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

Because privatization, has nothing to do with anything. So let's keep it vague?

Libe(R)fuckin'ta(R)ians. are doing this shit Worldwide.

They can do it any economic system you can conjure.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (22162) 10 months ago

No capitalism, no libertarians. Cause and effect matter a lot because understanding cause and effect allows us to get to the root of problems. Strike the root of the problem, not a symptom.

And, privatization is capitalism.

[-] 2 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 months ago

Cause and effect matter a lot because understanding cause and effect allows us to get to the root of problems.

Hence the program of attacking education and critical thinking by those who are killing our world.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (22162) 10 months ago

"Liberty cannot be preserved without a general knowledge among the people" - John Adams - Second US President (1797 - 1801). - Courtesy Shadz' profile page.

So, a ruse of liberty is preserved while the shackles clench down around us and most don't notice.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 10 months ago

perhaps the ignorant don't know there is an alternative

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 months ago

Edited - For some it is age as well as lack of a real world education : 18

Those of us older folk? Not so much of an excuse.

[-] 1 points by DKAtoday (23978) from Coon Rapids, MN 10 months ago

Honestly - because most of us never look at the world around us ( local or world wide ) - until we are on our own - and then - some will look and grow - while others will hide and/or deny.

[-] -2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

Would you like me to show you those entities that are actively pushing for privatization and profiteering?

Almost EVERY ONE OF THEM have deep ties to libe(R)tarian "movements" and their very generous funders..

Privatization IS libe(R)tarianism.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (22162) 10 months ago

No, thanks, shooz. My understanding of capitalism is based on having a knowledge of economics. Here are some definitions of capitalism:

cap·i·tal·ism ˈkapətlˌizəm/ noun: capitalism

  1. an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

And, from "Investopedia:

"A system of economics based on the private ownership of capital and production inputs, and on the production of goods and services for profit. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market (market economy), rather than through central planning (planned economy). Capitalism is generally characterized by competition between producers. Other facets, such as the participation of government in production and regulation, vary across models of capitalism."

Like I told you, capitalism is the root of the problem. Libertarianism is an inevitable symptom of capitalism, not the root of the problem.

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[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

I'm not going to concern myself with "classical" definitions. Let's see who owns the "charity" web site, the org as it were.

Oooops.

http://capitalism.org/

It appears to have been redefined......for the new millennium.

So you deny who, in this country, is hard at work privatizing everything in sight?

Or do you just choose to pretend it doesn't matter?

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (22162) 10 months ago

Right, after over 2 years of posting here against capitalism you can accuse me of pretending it doesn't matter. Unbelievable. You really have your nerve.

You are the one who misses the point completely. It is capitalism that allows libertarians to march to their evil beat, the beat of an economic system that fails the masses.

Libertarianism rose up out of capitalism. It is an outcome of capitalism. And, like I said before, no capitalism, no libertarianism.

You, for some reason, want to preserve an economic system based on exploitation. Why is that?

[-] 1 points by JamesWhitaker (11) from New York, NY 10 months ago

Good points. Capitalism is our main problem. Everything that's bad derives from that. People talk a lot about politics, but often fail to take a good look at economics. We need to replace capitalism with another economic model if we want wealth equality and to save the planet.

Every political party in US right now is for capitalism except for a few fringe parties like the communist party.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 10 months ago

we all pay interest to the bank and rent to the landlord

is capitalism about owning property ?

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[-] -3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

where did I say any of this?

You're the one insisting on the classic definition.

That would mean YOU adhere to it.

Me?

I've been trying to change at least SOME of the language.

If you keep using theirs? You're stuck in their system.

Oh, and stop putting words in my mouth.

I've shown over and over the "birth" of modern libe(R)tarians.

It's not my fault you choose to ignore all that, and stay with the easy definitions. The ones they provided for you.

Welcome to the Disunited Plutocratic States of the Military Industrial Complex.

You have been assimilated.

Please step aside.

.

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[-] 1 points by JamesWhitaker (11) from New York, NY 10 months ago

I suggest you read a book or two on capitalism. You're embarrassing yourself by defending capitalism on an OWS forum. Your position would make more sense on the Romney boards.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 10 months ago

not a party man

[-] -1 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

Excuse me?

Where did I defend capitalism?

Care to provide some level of proof?

You should read more period.

[-] -1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 10 months ago

Capitalism is a social system based on the principle of individual rights. Politically, it is the system of laissez-faire (freedom). Legally it is a system of objective laws (rule of law as opposed to rule of man). Economically, when such freedom is applied to the sphere of production its result is the free-market.

that an extracted abstract base on other ill defined terms

[-] 0 points by shoozTroll (17632) 10 months ago

OK.....and CATO and all the rest of the libe(R)tarian "interests" and charity oganizations(ALEC) (SPN) are highly involved in the privatization/profiteering of everything under the sun.

Libe(R)topia for all!

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 11 months ago

taking territory without dealing with those pesky national borders

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 11 months ago

"Right" there in London. No doubt.

Borders don't matter much to libe(R)topians.

They take or buy whatever they want.