Forum Post: Poll: More people blame Washington than Wall St.
Posted 12 years ago on Oct. 17, 2011, 1:33 p.m. EST by daverao
(124)
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I have been telling we should protest at Washington DC that is the cause of the problem. This is what all my friends and people I know says. Even poll done by gallop says.
No body listens to me and I think OWS is being rigged by politicians. My friends are deserting. Wake up OWS.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2011-10-16/occupy-wall-street-protests-spread/50797274/1
It's the same people.
We live in a world with a revolving door between Goldman Sachs and the Dept of the Treasury.
Don't forget USDA and Monsanto or FDA and Pfizer
Right on.
Some might think so, and they are not far apart, but the officials have oaths of office and regulations they have to follow as a part of their job. If they don't, they gotta' go.--
We need an Article V convention.
Congress is very afraid of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."
Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Article V conference, Mark Meckler Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-video comments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
And we should shut that door by constitutional amendment. Article 5 NOW!
There are a huge number of great, well thought out, COMPLICATED ideas that will require a huge amount of "selling" and explanation" and will garner GREAT OPPOSITION.
We need to be realistic & pick an issue that is simple - that is popular -
that 83% of Americans already agree on -
that 56% of TP already agree on -
that will bring together the people in OWS with the people outside of OWS.
Everybody wins!
Our only goal should be to pass a constitutional amendment to counter Supreme Court decisions Citizens United (2010) & Buckley v. Valeo (1976), that enable unlimited amounts of anonymous money to flood into our political system.
“Corporations and organizations are not a persons & have no personhood rights”
and
“money is not free speech”.
We don’t have to explain or persuade people to accept our position – we have to persuade them to ACT based on their own position. Pursuing this goal will prove to the world that we, at OWS, are a serious realistic Movement, with serious realistic goals. Achieving this goal will make virtually every other goal – jobs, taxes, infrastructure, Medicare – much easier to achieve –
by disarming our greatest enemy – GREED.
THE SUCCESS STORY OF THE AMENDING PROCESS The Prohibition movement started as a disjointed effort by conservative teetotalers who thought the consumption of alcohol was immoral. They ransacked saloons and garnered press coverage here and there for a few years. Then they began to gain support from the liberals because many considered alcohol partially responsible for spousal and child abuse, among other social ills. This odd alliance, after many years of failing to influence change consistently across jurisdictions, decided to concentrate on one issue nationally—a constitutional amendment. They pressured all politicians on every level to sign a pledge to support the amendment. Any who did not, they defeated easily at the ballot box since they controlled a huge number of liberal, and conservative and independent swing votes in every election. By being a single-issue constituency attacking from all sides of the political spectrum, they very quickly amassed enough votes (2/3) to pass the amendment in Congress. And, within just 17 months, they were successful in getting ¾ of the state legislatures to ratify the constitutional amendment into law. (Others were ratified even faster: Eight —took less than a year. The 26th, granting 18-year-olds the right to vote, took just three months and eight days.)
If they could tie the left and right into a success -
WHY CAN'T WE??????????
I feel that we should stay with this simple text to overturn CU:
”corporations are not people” and “money is not free speech”
for four simple reasons and one – not so simple:
1
83% of Americans have already opposed CU in the ABC/Washington post poll and the above
IS THEIR POSITION ALREADY.
2
We don’t have to work to convince people on the validity of our position.
3
Simple is almost always better.
4
This simple Amendment is REQUIRED to overturn CU.
And all other electoral reform can be passed through the normal legislative process.
5
OWS and these pages are chock full of ( mostly ) excellent ideas to improve our country.
All of them have strong advocates – and some have strong opposition.
None of them has been “pre-approved” by 83% of Americans !
Pursuing this goal – without additional specifics is exactly what Americans want.
What do we want? Look at that almost endless list of demands – goals - aims.
Tax the rich. End the Fed. Jobs for all, Medicare for all. So easy to state! Can you imagine how hard it would be to formulate a “sales pitch” for any of these to convince your Republican friends to vote for any of them?
83% of Americans have ALREADY “voted” against CU. And 76% of the Rs did too.
All we have to do ask Americans is to pressure their representatives – by letters - emails – petitions.
Wanna take your family on vacation?
Convince the 7 year old and the 10 year old to go to Mt Rushmore.
Then try to convince them to go to Disneyland.
Prioritizing this goal will introduce us to the world – not as a bunch of hippie radical anarchist socialist commie rabblerousers – but as a responsible, mature movement that is fighting for what America wants.
I feel that using the tactics of the NRA, the AARP an the TP – who all represent a minority – who have successfully used their voting power to achieve their minority goals - plus the Prohibition Amendment tactics – bringing all sides together - is a straight path for us to success that cannot fail to enable us to create and complete one MAJORITY task.
Going after Washington? Check.
Not also going after Wall St.? Uncheck.
We have to make it clear that, as of right now, Washington is the shovel and Wall St. is the hand burying the principles of democracy and governance. Targeting Washington without targeting Wall St. just says we are willing to accept some compromise solution wherein Wall St. can keep digging, they just have to use a tool other than shovels. I don't accept this.
The problems we have as a country and as a broader consumer culture go much deeper than this, but this is a good place to start.
Its very simple. Start creating your own candidates. Stop letting the elites choose your choices. Its not a hard fix. It just takes balls and aggresion.
ODC is empty today.
Yup. Why get angry at the person with their hand out, when its someone else who is actually giving your money to them. Be angry at those who have a fiduciary responsibility to you. Those would be our politicians.
"Washington" or "Wall Street" are both pretty vague terms comprising many different people and practices, and these simplistic terms are ultimately not very useful in understanding or fixing the problems. The best way to get to the heart of it is to rethink it in terms of specific people and policies. For example, "Washington" is made up of many individuals with several different opinions on policies. Any given policy that "Washington" eventually makes a final decision on has been, every step of the way, fought rabidly by any number of individuals within "Washington". Every policy has those pushing it and those fighting it. So the question is, what are the objectionable policies that created this situation and who pushed for them?
The name of the group is Occupy Wall Street.
An unscripted reality show, Occupy America is a populist movement in the tradtion of the nineteenth century Cross of Gold. Speculation (George Soros; hedge funds), long or short, oil futures, de-regulation, neo-liberalism, benefits the 1 percent connected class with no social benefit. Banks once organized and allocated capital in order to produce wealth, economic expansion, that benefited the many rather than the few. Globalists know no national loyalty and are detached from their nations.
Get the $oney out of politics. Campaign contributions are the nexus of corruption in the capitol. Reduce the amount of money involved in re-election, which really is the name of the game, by promulgating free air time during elections. Keep the current system for primaries.
http://napoleonlive.info/what-i-think/occupy-wall-street-get-the-money-out-of-politics/
History repeats itself: no leadership, no vision, no perspective, chickens have come home to roost...Selfishness.
For example, there was an imbalance in trade between the Western and Eastern halves of the Roman Empire, along with high taxation. Consider: the government lost control of its borders — Goths, Franks, Suevi, Alans — and society experienced moral decay.
NeilSalemMA Why does all this remind me of France in the 1780s and 1790s?
1) 1780s - The economy of France is in crisis. The civil population is poor and becoming poorer and they are starving. 2) 1789 - The storming of the Bastille - the revolution begins 3) 1791 - The King and Queen flee for their safety. 4) 1792 - The King and Queen are arrested. 5) 1793 - The guillotine - King Louis XVI and Queen Marie Antoinette are beheaded. 6) 1793 - 1794 - the Reign of Terror. Over 16,000 people are beheaded.
Our system of free enterprise is a corrupt oligarchy of the wealthy that drives more and more middle class Americans into poverty, even while the very rich get much richer. As happened over 200 years ago in France, the people will eventually rise up.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/17/markets/thebuzz/?source=cnn_bin
If I am the only one posting in this thread, it means that the majority of posters cannot see that directing their attention towards the wrong target, or not the root cause of problems, means they cannot oppose the real cause of the problems, because they cannot define it.----
Or, it means the infiltrators are so numerous, that threads directed at something not the source of the problems, or not solution, are made to appear as the only understood and participated information.
I agree. We need to be protesting our bought Congress - on Capitol Hill and at their local offices. How can we organize to make this happen?
We need to see the ultimate form of democracy, we need to use our first constitutional right, article 5 of the constitution. This is the only way any demand will be met.--
Congress is very afraid of an Article 5 because congress has no control IF 3/4 of the states are ratifying Meaning, we need to stay in our states and make the demand for an article 5. We only need 2 more states then congress is in OBVIOUS violation of the constitution and the military, YES, the military will have to defnd the constitution. -
If the state won't, apply, you are looking at a state controlled at key points by the nwo- jack up the pressure! talk about "lawful government" a lot and cite violations of laws on a federal level that impair the states constitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."
Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.-------
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html
I would really love to see the leadership of this movement concentrate on a few realistic points so we can unite the entire Political Spectrum of believers.We do not need to create chaos.We need Unity of all 99%' ers. I hope the organizers look at my little message.Try to just take on the Corruption. End the Marriage of Big Money to Washington, DC End Money Lobbying End Large Money Donations to Political Parties/Politicians End Large Money Donations to PAC Groups End The Corruption
Now if you all concentrate on this issue then you will change the system.On the other hand if you make to many demands all at once you will get nothing.I am 55 years old.I have gone to protests since 1969 when I was 13 against the Vietnam War.I have been around for years.I used to hang out in NYC often and would crash at the old YIPPIE Headquaters on Bleeker St.The things that I wrote down will fix a big problem we have and then I feel things will in fact get better.You must take one step at a time.If you make this movement to "LEFT or to RIGHT" it will only turn into chaos and you will lose out.I know this because we already tried to fight this battle and that was over 3 decades ago.If you on the other hand just deal with the Corruption issue you will get a lot more Angry People and they will be Liberals and Conservatives together.WE MUST ALL STAND TOGETHER. We love our Country.Do not lose direction and make the same mistakes my generation did.It took us over 10 years of protesting to get us all out of Vietnam.Us olde guys have a good memory and we have good knowledge.
OWS hijacked. Looks like it will be obama's winning scheme. I am still in and will protest and try to stay focus and will join in DC when I see it is genuine.
Yep, lots of hijacking going on. What puts the movement in control is recognition of how laws can be used to become more and more legitimate. Primarily in this situation, Article 5 of the constitution.-------
The states can shape such a convention as needed to be in the intent of the constitution. Apply the ninth amendment to the reading of Article 5 to see that.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.-------
jordankratz wrote: a few realistic points.END-----
How about one very real point. The US government is unconstitutional and NO demand will be met without invoking law. Since the gov is unconstitutional, the only law that really matters is the one that will empower us to re create constitutional government, Article 5.
A effort each evening to create a web conference to discuss Article 5 is beginning.--
http://www.articlevmeeting.info/
Comprehensive strategy.---
http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html
You are so correct. NYC has been thru so much pain due to 9/11 and ensuing terror threats. Give it a break and go to Washington and shake up the congress!
it makes more sense for many reasons:
Article V of the US constitution should be the demand. All issues can be addressed under it. Congress will have to stand aside, that is the law of the land. Read article V, congress has no role if 3/4 of the states are ratifying.
They are very afraid of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."
Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
I think there's plenty of blame to give to both of them.
Why not occupy the area near the supreme court? This is the anti-democratic institution that decided an election for the people, then declared that corporations are people. It should be visited by the people, until it learns it is an institution of the people.
Good idea, and, how about their decision that money is speech. Nice.
Not a bad idea! The Supreme Court has BETRAYED the American people, especially with the "Citizens United" decision, which amounted to a stab in the back. Such a court has clearly LOST ITS LEGITIMACY and should be dissolved. No major institution must be spared, if America is to truly begin ANEW.
Washington and Wall Street are the primary targets of OWS outrage and rightfully so. OWS just hasn't shown up in Washington in massive numbers yet. When they do, it will answer your concern.
That make me suspicious. Why? we do not want to upset current administration because it is supporting us, that is the feeling. We need more support here. We have become laughing stalk in DC.
Not to protest with massive numbers in Washington DC is what is making people suspicious of OWS real intentions. Who cares if the current administration gets upset? It is a major part of the problem along with our elected officials in congress who represent the interests of Wall Street ahead of Main Street. Unless OWS demonstrates massively in the nation's capital, or are afraid to do so because it will offend the administration, it will be regarded as an activist wing of the Democratic Party. OWS should remain non-partisan or it will fail.
It is almost like we are portraying the current administration as another victim.
Unions have big lobby in DC and they are part of us at OWC. They will always divert attention away from DC and congress. Unions have offices here I pass in front of them everyday and I do not see any sign there. Just couple people smoking outside and enjoying the weather. May be laughing us.
So 99% chance the 99% will end up reelecting BO?
There were massive OWS protests in the capitals of other countries; e.g., London, Rome, Berlin, Tokyo, etc. but not right here in the U.S. What's wrong with that picture? Conspicuous by its absence is the OWS call to march on Washington in massive numbers?
protesting in washington has been done
the legislator, executives and judges can hear use from our own cities
I have seen the DC protest that is for namesake. It has no impact. There are more pdople at metro station then at Mcpherson sq.(location of protest).
the passing public will see them there
They will hear our states legislations as loud as law can be when we start protesting at state capitols demanding applications for an Article V convention.-
We need an Article V convention.
Congress is very afraid of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_to_propose_amendments_to_the_United_States_Constitution "Congress acted preemptively to propose the amendments instead. At least four amendments (the Seventeenth, Twenty-First, Twenty-Second, and Twenty-Fifth Amendments) have been identified as being proposed by Congress at least partly in response to the threat of an Article V convention."
Our first right in our contract is Article V, the right to have congress convene delgates when 2/3 of the states have applied for an amendatory convention.
Article. V.
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
Lots of facts here about Article V. http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
Lessig power point on article V http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gpbfY-atMk
Article V conference, Mark Meckler Lawrence Lessig at harvard 9/25/11-video comments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-7ikbvu0Y8
Executives and judges can conform to our amended constitution after we do it. We need to do this from our own states.-----
Sincere people need to put mass pressure on their state legislators to apply for an Article V convention. We must use our fist right under the constitution to defend the constitution.-
Many links here with good info on Article V.----- http://algoxy.com/poly/article_v_convention.html
Good point, and the basic strategy for an Article 5 convention movement.-- Comprehensive strategy.--- http://algoxy.com/ows/strategyofamerica.html http://algoxy.com/ows/statestrategies.html
Hire yourself a staff of attorneys if you want to fight to change a law in America. That's the only way it might happen.
A much better thread than most of those being posted lately.
When will Occupy get this message and focus on defending the constitution by changing your user name to have "ART5" at the end to show you stand in defense of it.
Then, an American can post in one iof these threads, to show their support for reasonable, effective activsm by posting in them.
http://occupywallst.org/forum/corporate-influence-in-government-and-its-effect-o/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/the-system-can-it-be-fixed-or-must-it-be-replaced/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-need-to-fight-the-source-not-the-symptom/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/fix-congress-not-wall-street/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/please-consider-this-everyone-focused-on-1-thing/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/poll-more-people-blame-washington-than-wall-st/ http://occupywallst.org/forum/why-wall-st/
As well they should, government makes the laws the banks follow. The problem is government.
Yes, the problem is government. Many people forget that the system of government can be broken in numerous places, or only one, making the whole system look broken. This is why the standard of the constitution and laws made under it are so functional, IF the people supervise with TRUTH from media and a good voting system.---
Article 5 of the US constitution is our first and LAST right, if we do not use it.
If they were to move operations to DC, then they run the risk of making Obama look bad. Whether the OWS crowd wants to admit it or not, they will vote for Obama and probably change their message to one of loyalty and support to him before the next election (if they are even still around).
Yep, protest about the constittuional violations then your protest is all directed at defense of the constitution. Uh, if your signs all state, "Obey the constitution" and you are directing demands at congress and the white house, how can any cop say that what you are doing is not lawful.-----
Then, think about how many violations of the constitution there have been, exactly how serious are the crimes you are protesting?
Even protesting in DC isn't quite right. The only way to see demands met is through an article 5 convention under the US constitution. It is far too messed up for anything else to be done. Congress is too complicit to act in our intetersts.----
There are multiple oppositions that are secretly opposing and sabotaging from within and the only way to overcome that is to focus on strategy that really will cause change AND see demands met. That secret opposition will oppose the effective direction.-------
Consider, what real success has been found officially up to now? I know the unity is a success for the people, the protestors and the cause of humanity, but why would any other success than official not end up as a reason for retaliation later because no official mark was made now?-------
So this must evolve, we need to take on critical thinking about our masses and their real needs to action. Why would any action that could be logically successful in stopping the official corruption originating the need for demands be ignored by the movement in seeing demands met?
Yes, protestors, wake up. The strategy being used to direct you is not logical and does not invoke any authority to meet demands.-------
Read here just HOW often congress violates the law of the land, to your detriment. Undertstand Article 5.
http://www.foa5c.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=2