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Forum Post: please help! Con Edison has locked out 8,500 workers to try and union bust!

Posted 2 years ago on July 2, 2012, 1:35 p.m. EST by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY
This content is user submitted and not an official statement

I am posting this as a person who has just become a father, and am asking for the help of the Occupy Wall Street movement. At 4 Irving Place in Manhattan, we would greatly appreciate some support from your incredible movement.

Con Edison, the gigantic electric company, has told over 8,000 workers to "stay home and not come to work" because our union contract expired. We offered to keep things the way they were, but the company said no and expected us to take a pay cut, lose our pension (that we worked for some as long as 30 years), double our medical costs, triple our copay, and so forth.

They have told us not to come back to work. This is union-busting in its purist form. We will be picketing all over the 5 boroughs but 4 Irving Place is Con Edison's headquarters, and we know a lot of you guys are down there already. We would greatly, greatly appreciate any possible extra help.

Please keep in mind Con Edison is a PRIVATE electrical company listed on the stock exchange! Their stock is doing BETTER THAN EVER. Their new president, Craig Ivey, is a very anti-union guy brought in from down south whose sole job is to come here and destroy the union. He does not care if people are without power during a heat-wave. As long as he gets his huge bonus check for destroying the union.

Thank you, OWS. We greatly appreciate you even reading this far!

410 Comments

410 Comments


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[-] 4 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 2 years ago

It is all about lower wages. Anti-union is anti-American worker. https://www.facebook.com/WarOnWages

[-] -2 points by Growup6 (-125) 2 years ago

Pro-union is anti-freedom. Unions need restrictions to survive. They'll make you join. They love elections, just one. They have one election, but then that's it. Dues? Mandatory. Customers? They'll do what they can to take away their choices too. That's why unions are down to utilities and government. Both are monopolies; when unions stuff it to them, they stuff it to their customers that don't have a choice. If customers have a choice, they walk rather than pay for the bloated costs imposed by the union.

[-] 4 points by HempTwister (667) from Little Rock, AR 2 years ago

"Pro-union is anti-freedom." The freedom to get another job? The freedom to let others pay for your lobbyists. Unions are the lobby for the middle class. I appreciate union members paying for my lobbyists.

Unions are the only lobbyists the middle class has!!

[-] 3 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

I would strongly encourage OWS to take on your struggle. As I found out from a Sotheby employee who went back to work under a new contract (that he was happy with), there are things we can do that you can't. You must get your membership out in the streets though, whether it is for your cause, or for all of our plights. I also urge you to educate yourselves to the corrupt dynamics that have been, and continue to be played out that affect most of us in a very negative way. We are all in this together. And when I return from AK, I will gladly be there alongside you.

On a side note i have done a lot of work for Con Ed on the barges including 14th Street, 59th Street, and I was at Ravenswood on 9/11. I remember commenting to the dockman on what a beautiful day it was just before we turned to see smoke billowing out of the first WTC tower.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Sign this online petition to end the lockout of 8500 Con Ed workers.

http://action.workingfamiliesparty.org/p/dia/action/public/?action_KEY=6276

[-] 3 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

Verizon CWA member in solidarity with you here,This is the same crap we've been going thru for a year already and still no new contract.The prosperous company wants to take away pensions and other important benefits from the union members while the upper management feeds at the trough without limits. In my company's case 5 top executives have sucked 350 million dollars out of the company over the last 5 years and now they cry poor when it's time to compensate the workers fairly. They want to raid the pension fund, among other things. The middle class must stand together to stop this or else we're all in for a "Walmart" future

[-] 3 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thanks so much. What Verizon did to you guys is disgusting. They are another company with record profits. The crazy thing is Con Edison is a PRIVATE ELECTRICAL COMPANY that is LISTED ON THE STOCK EXCHANGE. How, how can they cry poverty? It's disgusting! Also, their stock is BETTER THAN EVER! I apologize for using caps but I am very cranky; I have been literally starving myself/skipping meals so I can pay for her formula. Also, I can't sleep. This stinks!

[-] 3 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

Congratulations on the new baby, Frank. I hope you guys are not out too long but just use this as an opportunity to enjoy the baby. There is one more thing I need to inform you about. The media is in the pocket of these corporations so you will soon see what a difficult time you'll have getting the union's side of the story out to the public. I remember last year when we we out on strike against Verizon I was so frustrated because all you heard from the 15 second soundbites on the news made the public think that we were on strike because the company just wanted us to contribute a little bit towards our healthcare plan costs. What BULLSHIT!!! In reality they want to ship our jobs to India, steal our pensions, gut our healthcare, and a dozen other important benefits ---- (they're still asking for the same concessions a year later) but you never heard about this in the news reports. I took to the Huff Post and a dozen other sites to try to get the word out about what all the issues are, but it's difficult to reach the same amount of people that the corporation friendly media can. So I advise you guys to use the power of numbers to get the truth out there. I'm doing my part for you!

[-] 3 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thanks so much, man. We are behind you guys too and know you aren't asking for much. Also, it's great you are using social media to get your statements across. To be honest, I'm a bit paranoid about my company finding me posting on websites like this and firing me for it! I wonder if they can?

[-] 4 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

I bust my butt every day for my company. An employee should not have to worry about being fired for stating true and common knowledge statements. If a company tried to fire someone for telling the truth then I know that certain media and the NY state Attorney General would be very interested.

[-] 5 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thank you. You have reassured me and I will continue posting my stories.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Solidarity with the workers of Con Ed.

American workers need to start standing up for their rights and labor laws need to be strengthened, not weakened, if our society is to survive.

People over profits. We need an economy that works for all people, not just the wealthy and corporations.

[-] 3 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The official OWS page I was linked to from frogmanofbonero is very nice but there doesn't seem to be much activity on their forums. Last post in a pro-union group was from 4 days ago? Anyway, we are desperate, and as this Con Edison situation is the definition of corporate greed, we'd really appreciate any help we can get. My daughter and I (and our 8,500 workers and their families) thank you all so much for any backing you can give us.

The more the public shows Con Ed that they don't agree with what they are doing, the more likely we are to succeed. I am terrified, scared, and depressed, but am confident we can get through this. Thank you all.

[-] 2 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Click on: franknicholasb1976 It will go to a page that has a list of a dozen nearby Occupy members that you can send private messages to join in your battle against union busting.

[-] 2 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thank you so much. I'm not that great with computers so I would never have found that. You guys are giving me a new faith in humanity. Seriously!

[-] 1 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

ok I tried this and got 0 replies so far; a stark contrast from the many I've gotten from you guys so far :)

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

In order to receive your message they need to be online. Many have permanently left the forum. You can also try resetting your location to find other members nearby.

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

You could message the moderator here, Jart. It could end up in the news feed on the site. It may take till after the gathering in Philly for anything to really get rolling.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

There is more union busting efforts lately and we'll see much, much more. Unions help keep wages for non-union workers elevated; so when they go .......... expect ALL wages to diminish. Standing up for unions, is like defending yourself. What we are experiencing is an attack on middle America. Join Frank's fight !!

I wouldn't be surprised to see Obama step in, and do what Reagan did to the air traffic controllers. Obama showed his true colors and did NOTHING to help the unions in Wisconsin.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

You are right. Every single American worker needs to stand up for his/her rights whether in a union or not, exempt or non-exempt. management or non-management. Historically, union wages have driven all other wages. How do they keep this a secret? And, how did they manage to turn the American people against unions? The mind is boggled.

[-] 8 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The American people have turned away from unions by a relentless propaganda war, which includes entertainment sources, to picture most union leaders as little more than thugs, ready to join arms with organized crime at any moment.

The current perception of labor unions (however you regard them) is the result of a purposeful campaign to make American workers believe subsistence wage is enough.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

entertainment sources are still unionized

at least, the writer's guild is

[-] 0 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

I know, but a lot of what is portrayed of unions through entertainment sources portrays unions or union leaders in an unfavorable way.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

mostly entertainment just don't talk about it

Unions formed when workers lived close. Now, we commute.

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[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Who are you trying to hurt? It's not my address if that is what you are thinking.

Get your own identity: [-] 0 points by MattLHalck (0) 2 minutes ago

[-] 1 points by DKAtaday (0) from Brooklyn Park, MN 4 minutes ago

Who are you trying to out - get in trouble?

It's not me and whoever you are doing this to or why ever you are doing this you should get booted. Who is the person you are trying to hurt?

If people want to see me they can set up a meeting time - Northtown mall is convenient.

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

if Romney suddenly picks up a NO WAR stance, I'd lmao

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[-] 0 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

"a relentless propaganda war, which includes entertainment sources, to picture most union leaders as little more than thugs"

so true, If I had a dollar for every time Rush Limbaugh said "union thug" I'd be a millionaire. I swear he must get paid 10 grand by the Koch brothers every time he utters that phrase.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Discredit one of the only ways workers have of unifying; keep them divided; keep them poor; and keep them where they belong.

[-] 0 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I think a lot of people who have been in the workforce for a while aren't aware of the current minimum wage. Most people don't believe maliciously (or even subconsciously maliciously) that American workers deserve and can survive off of subsistence wages. Most people are just completely unaware of what minimum wage actually is and which workers are paid minimum wage.

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Federal minimum wage is a parsimonious $7.25, and many states pay less than that. Some states, like Alabama, don't even have a minimum wage.

Bare subsistence, or slightly less, just what will keep most workers able to keep working; that's the capitalist rule of thumb.

[-] -1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I understand that, but no one working minimum wage believes that it is enough. No one working for that money wants to be there. These workers are already looking for a way out. Nobody believes that is enough, and unfortunately the American people who have stumbled out of subsistence are disconnected from the workers who currently are mired in there.

I don't think the attack on labor unions is cognitively malicious, in the same way that many people think that World War II was justified. It's the result of being on the other side of the fence and not knowing how the other side lives. Unions sometimes do get greedy, and sometimes do overstep their bounds. I've seen it, I've experienced it. A union can be as disgusting as the corporation can be. I think the current bedeviled view of unions is the result of propaganda from free market Capitalists and the corruption on the side of the unions themselves.

We should look for the next step: how do we get beyond unions?

[-] 3 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

Unify the workers to start fighting back collectively, if necessary outside of the union structure.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Though there are excellent and dedicated grass roots trade-unionists all over The USA, unfortunately many of 'the unions' have been systemically and systematically co-opted by the Political Class, Capitalists, Corporations, 'Organised Crime' and 'bought and paid for' Quislings, alas !!! ~:-(

spero meliora ...

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Check out this short film. I think it contains the answer you seek.

http://shiftchange.org/

[-] -1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Well said. I agree that it has been well thought through.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

One way they do it is through corporate run media. People need to think independently, instead of being TOLD how to think or what to think. Unions are a united force, and thus, harder for them to control. That's why the big rush to kill unions. We have strength in numbers; independently we have no chance, and will succumb to tyranny.

OWS also needs to become a united force.

[-] 7 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Right. Also, I think if you dig deeper, conservatives have done a good job at convincing the American people that they are pretty much schmucks if they can't make it on their own. So, if you need to rely on a union or on anything at all, you're a failure. It's the whole rugged individual thing on steroids. Crazy!

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

'Socialism' for The Parasitic Bankster Corporations, 'Crapitalism', "Structural Adjustment & Austerity" for The 99% not just in The U$A but throughout the world - is the order of the day, alas !!!

The 'privatisation' of gains, profit and opportunity and the 'socialisation' of cost, loss and risk whilst giving most to those who need it least and least to those who need it most !!

The utter bald faced cheek and hypocrisy is staggering !

Thanx for the opportunity to vent btw 'bw', lol.

fiat justitia ruat caelum ...

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Yes I agree that conservatives have been the main culprits attacking unions. It is crazy. Cheers

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes, we can't all be the "Marlboro Man," nor would I want to be.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

LOL! Great way to put it. Me neither!!!

[-] 3 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

The idea of a rugged individualist is very prevalent (and it is bull-shit) here in Alaska where I have been visiting family for the past month. I find that kind of ironic considering AK gets a whole lot more money back from the federal government than it sends in. In fact red states get 30 cents more federal spending per tax dollar than the blue states do on average. That's amusing to me.

[-] 6 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

That is so interesting. If you dig deep into what the rugged individual really is, it is a person that is just as dependent on the system and other human beings as anyone else.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Yes sadly two of the guys who depeicted this rugged individualism in the Marlboro commercials died of lung cancer.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

And, I bet they were on Medicare.

[-] 2 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

me too.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

LOL!

[-] 1 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

very good info - thanks

[-] 0 points by Odin (583) 2 years ago

Sharing what we have all learned is the best part of this forum.

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[-] -2 points by conservatroll (161) 2 years ago

Hope you are loving that full of fail beaurtiful world you live in

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Hope you are loving that full of fear world you live in.

[-] 1 points by rpc972 (628) from Portland, OR 2 years ago

You mean the ONE that cock blocks the private sector from fucking raping it to death, and then pillaging it to slavery? WILL DO!!

[-] 2 points by elf3 (2531) 2 years ago

Because all news and media is owned by corporations ...they get 24 hour propaganda (just look at what Hitler was able to do with propaganda and he didn't have cable news running round the clock like corporations do)

[-] 4 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Antonio Gramsci did some work on cultural hegemony as a means of maintaining the state in a capitalist society through the use of propaganda.

It stated that the prevailing cultural norms of society, which are imposed by the ruling class, must not be perceived as natural and inevitable, but must be recognized as artificial social constructs (institutions, practices, beliefs) that must be investigated to discover their roots as instruments of social class domination.That knowledge is indispensable for the societal liberation of the proletariat (urban workers and peasants) to create their own culture, which specifically addresses their social and economic needs as social classes.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

The nation-state is really a phony construct in and of itself.

There's a good documentary that points to this control by the state over the people: "The Century of the Self."

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Is it on youtube?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

I can't find the exact link I had. Shadz sent it to me originally. But, this link seems to be working and may be the same one:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-century-of-the-self/

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Thanks

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Also for all our edification, information and illumination I append - but please take care in viewing :

fiat lux et cave ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Re. Antonio Gramsci, thanx for your excellent comment which is a succinct summary and absolutely beautifully articulated, further to which I append :

fiat lux ...

[-] 0 points by BoycottCoke (275) 2 years ago

I like this...will do some reading on it.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Good points.

[-] 2 points by freehorseman (267) from Miles City, Mt 2 years ago

The American people have been programed not to think or give a shit about anyone or thing including themselves.The majority are selfish fools.

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

They need to be de-programmed.

[-] 2 points by freehorseman (267) from Miles City, Mt 2 years ago

They need to be scruffed by there neck and shaken.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

LOL! Okay! I don't disagree.

[-] -2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

The union I am in, the United Food & Commercial Workers Local 1500, is known by all of my coworkers as being a very bad union. While the higher-ups in the Union make off with plenty of expendable cash, the underlings, especially recent hires and part-time workers, are essentially sent to the dog house. Unions are bought off often by the company they work for.

I would be making more money right now just by working on minimum wage if I didn't pay weekly union dues. This is one of the reasons why America has become so anti-union. I would sooner take grievance against my union than against my oppressive corporate employer.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

It's too bad that some unions have become corrupt, and they have, but, you must remember that an individual worker is basically powerless against the employer. The worker risks being able to provide for the basic necessities needed for an adequate life while the employer risks only profit. The employer gets to pick among many workers seeking jobs while the employee must sit and wait to be "chosen" by the employer. So, basically, employees on their own have little power. Do they necessarily need unions as the force to bind them together? Probably not. But they need some way to fight for their rights.

Check out Titusmoans post above. I think he/she is right about the propaganda that has been waged against unions.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Part of the current union contract states that members in the union can't protest unless officially sanctioned by the union. We also aren't allowed to have a sympathy strike for members in different unions who also work in the store (I work on a famous Long Island supermarket chain).

From what I hear from every informed member in my store and others, union leaders are taking the money and running. I'm a person who is overall sympathetic to unions, but I absolutely can't stand my own union.

I agree that there has been propaganda against the unions on the Conservative side, but Liberals are basically myopic to the corruption of unions and would rather see them as some shining lite between the night, which they are not any longer.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Everything you say is true. Unions had their moment in history but they screwed up big time by becoming political and, therefore, corrupt. Labor needs to get together on a broader scale in a completely new way.

We also need an entirely new economic system that values labor more fairly. The profits must be shared with employees in such a way that employees at least earn a living wage. The economic system should work for all people not just for corporations and capitalists to become more and more wealthy while exploiting workers. This has to end or our society may not continue.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

In Norway, Union Leaders sit on the board of directors in corporations.

But I think we need to go beyond that. The union workers are being strangled by the need to EAT. Currently, food is imported from just a few productions states. If workers were to go on strike in New York, how would they feed themselves and their families? I think that is part of the root of corporate corruption, which is desperation.

Perhaps once upon a time local farmers who were sympathetic could provide food, but corporate farms would be less likely to spare a brother a dime. If I could arrange a group of workers to go on strike (which I had begun to try a few months ago but got jaded and stopped), how could we go three weeks without pay when we are living paycheck to paycheck?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Exactly. Workers have very little power. This is why the government and the economic system is supposed to look out for the worker! The worker and his/her family is the backbone of any nation. What happened here? Greed happened here and it needs to be fixed. So, in the meantime, workers are going to have to unite against this greed in big ways or they will continue to be exploited. It's not an easy road ahead, but I truly believe our civilization will decline if workers are not treated better, and soon.

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

My question is: will it be possible to usurp the corporate power from underneath the CEO's and shareholders? How do we do this, and in what way will OWS be effective in dealing with this cancer?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

It's a really good question. I think it's going to be a slow process, to be honest. I think focusing on a living wage for starters would be smart. I also think cooperatives are an important aspect of this. The more that workers can control the means of production the better off they will be.

It is a cancer. You are so right. While 6 members of the Walton family of Wal-Mart have a net worth equal to the bottom 30% of all Americans, many Wal-Mart employees qualify for foodstamps. This is just one sign of a very sick society. Cancer is right.

Re: worker ownership see:

http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-new-era-for-worker-ownership/

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Get the legislation in place with area ( state by state ) numbers to action centers that can look into and correct abuse without exposing the whistle-blower. A tie in to the IRS would seem like a natural source to tracking and enforcement.

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Not sure I'd trust the IRS to do anything, but maybe.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

They need work/reform/reorganization/re-dedication as do all of the current government institutions - but their data base accessed properly could be a key to enforcement of a living wage as well as equal pay as that has never been properly enforced either.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Valid point.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Apparently someone does not agree - silent down vote dissent. Must have hit a shill nerve - no comment to accompany the dissent - typical.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

I always think of Rodney King, who died recently, when I see all the infighting. "Can't we all just get along?"

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You would think that people would support people - it is amazing to me - always to see those who would sell-out humanity/life.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

At least you can afford the points, DKA, you'll be crossing into five digits soon. LOL!

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I don't care about that - when I was working if it was my income - sure I would be interested to a point - gettin by with the ability to save.

I got into it pretty good with RustyButt yesterday - it looks like he got banned as he is back with a new log in name.

Anyway he most often will down vote as it seems to matter to him.

He hates me and likes to try to mess with me. He actually provides much entertainment.

[-] 3 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Why not just have the workers run the enterprises themselves and get rid of the board of directors?

http://occupywallst.org/forum/a-new-era-for-worker-ownership/

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I agree. But I think we need a world that outlawed conglomerations. We need small businesses. Corporations result in too much power, and power corrupts.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Good idea.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

there are 14 million people without paychecks.. get by the same way they are getting by. there are about a million food banks, soup kitchens and so on that you can get food from in any state.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Business must also be forced to continually improve their process to get cleaner and cleaner - we can not allow reckless business practice for profits to poison and kill our world/Us.

There is so much good clean technology available for implementation today - but it will not be used as it would lower immediate profits.

[-] 3 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

$13 a week in union dues is so much that you'd be making more if you were at minimum wage? What the...???

[-] -1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I pay $7.20-8.45 (if I pay legal dues) per week. Since I only make an extra 25 cents per hour from being in my union, and since I usually only work 25 hours a week, the 25 cents above minimum wage only nets me around $6.25, meaning that I've lost money every week by being in the union, unless I've been lucky enough to be given 30+ hours in the week, which is increasingly a rarity.

Not to mention the initiation fees which reached nearly $200.

[-] 5 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

If there was no union at all for any employees where you work your wage would likely be lower in the first place (forget the fact that you make .25 cents more per hour for paying dues). You can't get something for nothing. You can't receive the benefits from being in a union for nothing. Nobody pays to support the union = No union = No protection and likely lower wages. This is why conservatives are trying to smash the unions. Unions eat into their profits by forcing them to share the profits with employees more fairly. They don't like that.

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

No, you don't understand. I DON'T receive any benefits from being in this union. I don't get health, dental, or optical benefits. I don't get premium pay on Sundays. I have never felt more at risk at losing my job, and this is the only job I've ever worked that is union required.

As my former boss (a union attorney) said, "A corrupt union is better than no union." I agree. But reasons why I have explained is why America is really becoming so anti-union: because longer-time members are becoming corrupt, voting on contracts that benefit them and throw future part-time members under the bus.

I make 25 cents ABOVE minimum wage. 25 cents is the union increase. How could I possibly make less by NOT being in this union??? I couldn't possibly make a lower wage, and thus am better off by not being in this union, but I have no alternative.

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

"A corrupt union is better than no union."

I'd rather have someone to talk about work with then just my boss

[-] 1 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

Sadly, you make a good point. But Unions are known to have fought for the minimum wage being increased. Has any Republican been known to fight for higher minimum wages?

[-] 0 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I agree, but unions have been slow to fight for minimum wage increases, and they usually wait until things truly get desperate. There must be something better than this.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Public unity in support of a living wage for all starting at entry level in all business - national policy.

Campign same as move to amend - to end corpoRAT personhood.

We need to end corruption and the means to corrupt. Unions leadership are no different than politicians - they are gonna take what they can get.

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

I feel for you. That is truly disgusting and you are a hero for discussing it in public.

I think that the union movement in this country has failed miserably in many regards. Worker rights couldn't be more eroded and wages have been decreasing for over 30 years. I truly believe that the labor movement in this country needs to move beyond unionism to encompass all workers. It needs to be more broad-based. American workers need better pay, more time off, better healthcare and retirement benefits. Not just the few who already have those things, but all workers.

[-] -3 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Damn straight BW - unite in common cause - People we can not make the needed changes/corrections without uniting.

Take a page from move to Amend - this is being organized state to state - and is gaining momentum.

Issues of society need to take this direction if we want to see progress for the people.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Workers should not let the conservatives make them think that if they are fighting for their rights as a worker that they are some kind of failure. That's such b.s. but people buy into that and they take on that shame. Workers need to start standing up for what is right and just and fair. No shame!

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

The best thing that I can see people doing is to unite in support of a living wage starting at entry level in all business - this should be run just like the move to amend campaign to end corpoRAT personhood - state by state.

Remove the middle man - corrupt or useless union officials. Just like we need to remove the corpoRAT insurance middleman.

We need to get things locked into place by proper peoples legislation.

All of our issues will need to be brought forward to realization in this manner until we regain our government and then we must never turn our backs again.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

I agree that a living wage is a great place to start. OWS was going to have a day of protest for a living wage tied in around the world, but I don't know what happened to it.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yeah that was supposed to have been in June - what happened? Anyone know?

[-] 0 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

The poster was stunning. It was a universal day for a living wage. Maybe they can do it again at some point.

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

I hope so - perhaps as a launch to a living wage campaign like move to amend's campaign.

It is good and absolutely necessary to have protests and demonstrations - but then we need to continue on and organize into cohesive campaigns.

Perhaps it will receive the thought and attention it needs if the removal of copoRAT personhood becomes successful.

Support move to amend.

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

most working people do not belong to a union.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

However, all working people benefit from the work that unions do in terms of wages and benefits.

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

how do non union people benefit from union benefits and wages?

[-] 1 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Historically, union wages have driven the wages of non-union workers as well. This works within a given company and outside to workers in companies that aren't unionized at all. So say you are a manager in a union shop, you're on the management side. Well, guess what? The more your union employees make, the more you're going to make. Cut their wages and watch yours decrease.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

why not?

most work involves cooperation

the works would be more efficient if the workers can negotiate how tasks and done

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

they dont belong to union because where they work does not have a union to belong to. what makes you think that people will only cooperate if being forced to do so ? you under estimate people.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

unions form be people by cooperating without being forced to

I try to avoid using the word you to avoid unintended conflict

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

try re-writing that.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

Unions first formed by people cooperating without being forced to

Unions formed when workers lived close. Now, we commute.

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

and now in some jobs , in some states people are forced to belong. why is it that the unions are against right to work states?

[-] 3 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

in order to be paid at all

we are subjugated to all the employers rules

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

you arent subjugated to anything. you make your own choices about work and goals.

[-] -3 points by MattLHalck (-8) 2 years ago

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (9451) 13 minutes ago

why not? brandy boots

most work involves cosperation:

[-] 0 points by MattLHolck (9451) 13 minutes ago

why not?

most work involves cooperation

the works would be more efficient if the workers can negotiate how tasks and done ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink DKA, 9125 Prestwick Ct, Brooklyn Park MN 55443

the works would be more efficient if the workers can negotiate how tasks and done ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

What does the average union member make per week and pay in dues?

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I don't have the information to answer this question. I can only answer based on what I make and my colleagues make, which is not much.

Granted, full-time workers make a lot more money. But it has become impossible in recent years to become full-time. Part of this is because the union leaders have been bought off by the employer and have signed contracts that have already sold-out future employees in exchange for increased pension (which is currently being cut) and benefits.

[-] 1 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

I meant what do they make in your union?

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

It depends on the position and how long a person has been working there. Since pay increases alter from contract to contract, I can't account for the average pay of our workers.

New workers rarely ever break the $8.00 mark (it would take almost two years at the company to make over $8.00). A new worker usually gets jaded by the minimal pay and overall treatment at the company and leaves for something else by the time he or she would reach that. I believe this is intentional on the part of the company to keep costs down and on the part of the union to keep initiation fees continually rolling in.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

the grocery unions in san diego did that

[-] 2 points by TitusMoans (2451) from Boulder City, NV 2 years ago

The unfortunate reality is that many unions are corrupt; corrupted by the same disease that corrupts all of a capitalist society: the class struggle, controlled by the very few. That wealthy elite know what unions are all about; they're not morons wandering around with slack jaws, drooling. They survive by crushing the workers under their heels.

If you want to accomplish something, begin a quiet revolution at your own workplace; agitate silently letting other favorably inclined workers know that options to free themselves from wage slavery exist.

We should all be active in educating fellow workers without endangering ourselves in any way; that accomplishes nothing.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

then why dont you quit and get a minumum wage job? why would you stay somewhere making less money than you could make elsewhere and then cry about it? i think your making this up. if you were not making better than minimum , have benefits and vacations.. why would you not just go else where? there is always jobs at mc donalds and such that would pay you more. what exactly keeps you from doing this if what you say is true?

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Because I live in the suburbs on Long Island and don't have a car. Yes, the local McDonald's was hiring, but the local McDonald's is 3 miles away from where I live. I was once upon a time looking for a new job on a weekly basis, but in my suburb there aren't many businesses unless I want to travel at least 3 miles to get out there.

Currently I'm saving enough money to move to Brooklyn, where there are more jobs. Sure, rent will be steeper, but I can't afford a car and car insurance.

Your unsympathetic and selfish attitude suggests that you are disconnected from the current economic environment. I suggest you move to the suburbs, ditch your car, recently graduate from college, and see how difficult life really is.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

none of the restaurant chains have a job for me

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

i see.. so you live within walking distance or bus riding distance of just that one employer? sounds a little strange being in that large of a city but if you say so.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I don't live in a city. But Wantagh is a primarily residential suburb. There are some business areas, but they aren't very big.

To give you an example of the crisis on Long Island, most of my coworkers commute up to 30 minutes to get to work just to make minimum wage, even though they're traveling on highways.

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

its the same everywhere for any one that doesnt live in or within 200 miles of a metropolis (over 50 k population). still think you could find a minimun wage job non union if what you say is true and the union cost you more than its worth.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Trust me, I've been looking

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

what did you major in? do you live with your parents? 3 miles? why couldn't you walk?

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Walking 3 miles could take up to an hour and a half--thanks to the twisting and turning nature of the suburbs here--which isn't a very efficient way to spend my time, especially in hot weather. It takes me around 20 minutes to walk to my current job. I currently live with my grandmother. And I majored in English; though if you think college should be directly linked to financial success in life, then college itself has failed you as an independent spirit.

Let me take this moment to explain something that many people are not addressing: jobs aren't an effective way to apotheosize your humanity. If I worked as a financial analyst for a successful marketing firm, I would still be at the beck and call of my corporate overlords. I.E. I would be subverting my humanity in order to make a good buck. As the philosopher William James pointed out, the purpose of college was not to achieve financial success but to "know a good man when you see one." What he was hitting on the head was that education is something completely independent from financial stability.

What I think people fail to realize was that once upon a time humans managed to survive without "jobs." And now we can not. Why is that, and why aren't we fighting the system in order to free ourselves from this outrageous subversion of our human nature?

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

with a major in english , what did you think you would do after you graduated? if you think education is independent from financial stability then you deserve the "independent spirit "situation you are now living, you're whiner, the walk is too long and it's hot, so what? jobs, work , have always mattered. whether you work for yourself or other people. you are the sorry product of a liberal eduction. you wasted your time and money. you should have gone to trade school and learned a skill.

[-] 4 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I have in fact learned a skill, the ability to save my spirit. Perhaps you are a troll of sorts and these thoughts are wasted on you, but there are more important things than money. Are you a Christian? Have you read the parable of the talents? Not to spoil the surprise meaning of the story, but Christ was saying that talent (as we now understand the word) is not composed of wealth, but integrity.

I did not go to college for money. I went to save my soul. I never thought of wealth. I have no debt, and am not seeking millions. I am seeking the salvation of my coworkers, of humanity, who themselves have not the means to obtain college degrees and respite from the dreariness of a service industry.

What you perceive as whining is your inability to recognize observation. What you fail to realize is that your attacks on the dregs of society is your need to feel superior to someone else. It is the same disease which afflicts most rich people: the desperate need to feel acceptable. One measurement of aggrandizement which you have chosen is through monetary measurement.

Perhaps you have no spiritual inclination, so the wisdom of Christ (or Buddha, or Chuang Tzu, or Emerson) are wasted on you. But, then again, your education was already wasted on you, and until you can realize that life can not exist in a corporate, privatized world, then your soul has been wasted on you.

[-] 0 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Good response

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Thank you, Peter.

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

so you learned to save your spirit. how nice for you. and now you whine about not being able to find a job that can enable you to feed, cloth and shelter yourself. your degree is worthless. your head has been pumped full of naive garbage. you whine that its too far for you to walk for a better job. poor you. you dont like rich people , why? job related success is not the only thing in life but it is a good thing. seeking the salvation of your co workers and humanity? become a missionary. what attack on the " dregs of society"? look in the mirror, you are the problem.

[-] 3 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

“Well, whiles I am a beggar, I will rail.

And say there is no sin but to be rich;

And being rich, my virtue then shall be

To say there is no vice but beggary.”

— William Shakespeare

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

I have never seen transformers. i have never mentioned it, casablanca, love found, love lost , love found again and given up, its about loyalty, and doing the right thing because its the right thing to do. great film. gold and silver have commercial value, outside of hanging a painting on wall, there isnt much else you can do with it. van gogh sold one painting in his lifetime. once monet " made it" he would paint rouen cathedral in any color scheme the buyer wanted. so much for integrity.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Gold in silver do not have "intrinsic" value, as you had speculated earlier. You can't eat it. You can't make tools out of gold because it isn't dense enough. It's a fairly useless mineral. The only value gold has is that which is fabricated by us. It represents wealth because we put that value onto it--it is not a value that is naturally occurring, but one that only developed over time.

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

both silver and gold have industrial uses. gold is used in the manufacturing of electronics, ,....................cell phones, calculators,gps units and tv's, computers both desktop and lap top. its used to treat arthritis and cancer. its also used in glassmaking. Silver is the best conductor of electrcity. every computer, cell phone, server and moinitor has silver in it. it's also in tv. washing machines, wall switch and refrigerator.its also in conductors and and fuses. "smart tags" that replace bar codes contain silver. it's also used in photography. batteries are made with silver, silver sulfadiazine is the most powerful compound for burn treatment, silver is used for water purification. NEXT time do some research before you mouth off.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Well, as of now, Western culture has taken over the planet. In a barter system, its the number one barter tool, due to its options for further barter.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Seems how humans have valued it for a very very long time, I would say has intrinsic value, due to the way humans think.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

That is both a sweeping generalization of cultures and a misunderstanding of what the word intrinsic means. Not all cultures contemporary of each other have imbued a positive valuation on gold. It's why gold was so abundant in California; the aboriginals of California didn't place as much worth on gold as Westerners did and did not see it necessary to mine it.

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

you quote a man that worked for a living. he payed his own way and didnt live with grandma. cant walk the 3 miles? save and get a bike.

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Hahaha, that quote was totally lost on you. You may as well give up on this activity of reading, because your education has left you virtually illiterate.

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

eakins does not appeal to me. sargent ws a society portrait painter. dont care for homer or hopper either. i never liked pop art or op art. art is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. that doesnt make it good, or great, both are subjective.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I can accept that you don't like Eakins, Sargent, or Hopper. But to say that art is worth what someone is willing to pay for it makes me think you are just trolling me. And I fell for it.

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

mr smith and his ideals triumph over the corruption of senator payne. george baily , through out his life did the right thing, not ws right for him ( at the time) but right for his neighbors , family and friends, and when he needed their help, they were there for him.capras movies celebrate american , the american people and the ideals of america.george bailey comtemplated suicide because he deemed himself a failure, clarence showed him just how much his choices in his life meant to to the lives of those around him.he could have left beford falls at any given time but he did the right thing because it ws the right thing to do. through his entire life, even when he ws unhappy he retained his moral values. look at any van gogh, thick paint, intense color. he painted his emotions, the viewer responds to those emotions. eakins, boring. guaguin was a post impressionist painter. when i look at a painting, by any painter, it either hits or it doesnt.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Mr. Smith triumphed over senator Payne, but as the film suggests, the corruption still went on. George Bailey wanted to kill himself because he never got to be the person he dreamed of being. He was always needed for something else, and finally the corrupt banker got to him. It's a Wonderful Life is about how a man can find value in himself despite living in a corrupt world.

How do you miss that part? The whole "corrupt world" part? You just let that whole part of the movie flow off of you, like the final redemption is how life always ends. Capra was saying that's how life COULD end, but more often than not we jump into that river. Why do you want impose this kind of world on people where they have to struggle simply to live?

The fact that you find Eakins boring suggests you simply follow the European ideals of art and completely ignore American Romanticism. I bet you find Hopper, Sargent, and Winslow Homer dull too, huh? How can you find them dull when you think Norman Rockwell has any value at all?

Gauguin, like Degas, has work that extends from Impressionism to Post-Impressionism. Like how Picasso has realist paintings and cubist and abstract.

Andy Warhol also used intense colors, but that doesn't mean squat. Van Gogh was different because he painted with his emotions, not because he used intense colors.

[-] -1 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

hals and van gogh had had highly distinctive brushwork which produced the paintings that get the emotional response. mr smith is still relevant to american politics. capiltaims uplifts the individual, communism , socialism, forces people down. so, you blame your own failures on a system which gives everyone an equal opportunity to succeed. the failure is yours, not the system ( capitalism).

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is all about how much a failure the American system is, and how constraining Capitalism is. George Bailey in It's a Wonderful Life contemplates killing himself because of the oppression of the capitalist system. The movie is practically all about how man does not get to pursue his dreams against a corrupted and overbearing system like America has. ALL of Frank Capra's movies are critical of the American system. Watch his Lost Horizon, his You Can't Take it With You. He practically spells it out in those films.

Hals' and Van Gogh's brush strokes are not what produced their emotional effects. How many impressionists or portraitists are simply dead of life? Gaugain. Does the fact that the brush strokes in Thomas Eakins' portrait of Miss Amelia van Buren (which is a good example of how restricting "systems" can be) are fairly fluid with the picture mean that it lacks life? Those are the analytic responses to paintings, NOT the emotional ones. They are simply technical, and technique does not inherently translate to emotion. It's simply that Van Gogh and Hals and Eakins all had something emotional to say.

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

i dont take pictures. i paint and the paintings sell. well. btw, i like hals , bacon(the painter not the writer), turner , gorky and inness. get a job at costco, the pay there averages about 20$ hr. it's mostly non union. you should have learned a trade instead of wasting your time and money on an education that seems to be worthless.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Identify and know a 1%er scion &/or lackey by his haughty hubris and Randian Psycho-pathological disdain and disregard for the circumstances of others !! Ayn Rand regarded care, compassion and concern for others as 'evil' !!!

multum in parvo ...

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

You may "like" Hals, but do you really understand? Do you really understand that Hals was showing us how wonderful everyone really is? That everyone deserves their own chance to shine and can truly shine if we only give them a CHANCE?

By endorsing the corporate-capitalist-industrialist system, you suggest that people don't inherently deserve chances: There are winners and there are losers, right? Therefore, you completely missed the point Frans Hals was trying to make.

I couldn't tell you where the closest Costco is--because it's not close at all. But don't you think it's a damn shame that I would need to work at a corporation instead of pursuing my dreams and passions, or just focusing on improving the world? Since we talked about Shakespeare before, he was able to succeed because he was given a chance. Same with Hals and Rembrandt, who lived in a time in which the guild and apprenticeship system prevailed. Painters were allowed years to master their craft--but just focusing on their craft and not having to work silly jobs like "cashier."

Now people just paint to make money. That's why a hack like Normon Rockwell or Andy Warhol can make a million. It's why we haven't seen Picasso or Edward Hopper in 50 years.

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

art , unlike gold or silver has no instrinsic value. art is worth whatever a person is willing to pay for it.

[-] 0 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

Gold and silver have no intrinsic value. They only have value that we have placed on them. Silver is rarer than gold, yet gold is more expensive.

So are you really saying that Transformers is a worthier film than Casablanca or Rebel Without a Cause because it grossed more money?

"Moby Dick" was a complete flop during Melville's lifetime. Would you have suggested then that this made him meaningless as an artist? Why, then, do we value his work so much now? Same could be said about the poetry of Emily Dickinson.

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

"poor people dont want to be poor". wow, what a revelation ! why is being an accountant or a manager a waste of a persons life? by the way I am an artist.

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

You are not an artist. You might be someone who draws, or can use a video editor, or sculpts. But those techniques don't make you an artist. Do you understand humanity in the same way as Degas, Jean Renoir, or Faulkner? Unlike you, artists tend to sympathize with the dregs of humanity. Or is Picasso just some pretty colors to you?

What exactly does an accountant do? Perhaps it is something useful for upholding a complex industrialized system, but it does nothing to activate and expand ones soul. To be stuck 9 to 5, working for someone else, constantly worrying if you'll be caught checking your personal email and be fired. That hardly sounds like a life worth admiring.

But to live free by the bare strength of ones hands and determination; seeking food through the immense and weathering grip of nature. We are too civilized a people now, full of civilized fears and dreads. Why don't we aspire to something greater than what we are right now?

Dear artist? Can you answer me that? Can you answer me why so many people uphold the status quo? Can you answer me why so many people resist change? Dear artist? Do you really understand yourself?

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

you know nothing about art. "liking" a painting is an emotional response not an analytical one. hals had very distinct brushwork and an ability to paint his subjects in the moment. with the constitution guarantees an equal opporunity , not an equal outcome. thats up to the person. not everyone has equal talent, ambition or drive, those are things that cant be legislated. what are your dreams? what are your passions? you down on people that work to pay their bills. for all your so called high ideals, you're a snob. i never thought much of warhol but have come to appreciate rockwell over the years for his portrayal of americana. i prefer bacon over picasso any day.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Stop hamming it up on 'bacon' and telling porkies, you silly sausage ;-)

Is Pablo Picasso a bit too empathetic, compassionate and left-wing for your "liking" ?!

Have you any thoughts (pretentious or otherwise) on Hopper, Rothko, Liechenstein or on the "liking" of art increasingly becoming merely another speculative enterprise for financial gain these days ?!!

Or does taking advantage of this phenomenon keep you comfortably in paints, canvases & hubris ?!!!

ars gratia artis ...

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

"you down on people that work to pay their bills."

No, I down on a system in which there are such things as "bills."

"hals had very distinct brushwork," is an analytic response, not an emotional one.

Rockwell was only distinct in his misunderstanding of Americans. He's like Frank Capra without the insight. Watch Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Meet John Doe, or It's a Wonderful Life to see the reality of the falsely idealized American Dream of that era. Heck, almost any one of Capra's 30's and 40's films presents an argument about why Capitalism dooms the individual.

"not everyone has equal talent, ambition or drive, those are things that cant be legislated."

That's why Capitalism simply doesn't work. It forces us to compete in a system that perhaps some of us weren't designed to work well into. It's an industrial system designed from people with industrialization on the mind. The spiritual human can hardly exist in such a system. And, unless you're a Social Darwinist, that's exactly why you should believe in such things as socialized health care .

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

i am an artist. you seem to think that all artists must be "i feel your pain" libs. i know my self and i know that this current administration is criminal enterprise. you are of the entitlement mentality.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I agree that this administration is a criminal enterprise. But I doubt anyone can provide an example on an administration that wasn't criminal in some element. Certainly the last administration could be held accountable for war crimes, as could almost every other administration.

If you don't mind, how old are you? Is it fair to assume you are a boomer? Are you aware that the minimum wage that my generation inherited from the boomer generation's policies amounts to less real world money? Indexed for inflation, minimum wage in 1968 would have been $10.55 an hour, which is $3.30 more than what it is now.

I am not interested in unearned entitlements, but simply fairness. I pay taxes for wars that amount to nothing more than the mass murder of less industrialized and defenseless peoples. Yet is it too much to ask that my tax money should instead go to helping me pay for a medical bill for an injury that perhaps was not the result of my fault?

Sorry, but you're not an artist. A person who takes nice pictures, perhaps. But you do not understand your relationship to this world like Shakespeare, Frans Hals, or Emerson did.

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

no dear, i read and understood the quote. what you fail to understand is that it was written by a working man. a man that had a gift and a passion and persued it. he got paid. he was a WORKING man.

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

You read it, you perhaps comprehended the words together as dependent coherent thoughts, but you fail to see the significance of the words as a whole. What Shakespeare was saying is that you and I will never understand each other. You having plenty can't understand the frustration of the poor man who must abide by your rules. And me having nothing can't understand all this prejudice based on the possession on money.

So our discussions are pointless. We will never come to a common understanding of each other as you are on the North Pole and I on the South. Shakespeare had many experiences in life. He started out poor and was able to eventually land on his passion: writing.

If you read his plays, you see a man filled with frustrations. These come out in the forms of characters whose ambitions are stifled by the outside influences that exert an exorbitant amount of control over their personal lives.

What you fail to realize is that poor people don't want to be poor. But they don't want to waste their lives as accountants, managers, and in similar jobs where you truly amount to nothing more than a co-conspirator in the oppression of our humanity. No human was born with the instinct to be a "corporate lawyer." We are all born to hunt and gather and be spiritual. Capitalism (and Civilization) puts an unnatural barrier against our natural humanity.

You also fail to understand the life of an artist. Shakespeare didn't write to rake in the paper. He did not intend to get rich. Life didn't work that way during his time. He was just an artist trying to express himself and expel the demons from humanity. Artists would do this for free if they could.

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

why is that when walker made union dues an option( as opposed to being directly deducted form paychecks) that more than half of the unions members didnt pay their dues. if those union members thought so highly of their union they would have paid the dues. but they chose not to.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

kinda like Republicans that say they are concerned about the debt, but never write a check to help pay it down

[+] -6 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

obama has said he doesnt pay enough in taxes, what prevents him form writing a check to the treasury? same with buffet who owes milions to the irs.

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Or Romney for that matter or his sons, hey I got an ideal about that how about a 99% inherence tax? Sounds good to me and we could pay off this damn debt we ran up to help the 1% build up that pile of money.

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

If all the money taken fro the rich was put toward the debt, it would not pay it off. you dont seem to understand that GOVT SPENDING is the problem.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

So how come half-wit, right-wing 'numbnuts' like you, don't have a word to say about 'The Staggering Costs of the Ever Burgeoning Imperial Military Expenditure of The U$A' ?!!! Further, how come your "GOVT SPENDING is the problem" (so called) thinking does not stretch to this most obvious drain on The US 99% ?!! Finally, how'd your 'nuts' get so 'numb' ?!

ad iudicium ...

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

another tourettes attack?

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Still wearing your (x) as a hat and emasculating yourself by sitting your fat arse down on your own 'pea sized testicles', like a true 'Numbnuted' Randian Reptile ?!

verum ex absurdo ...

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

you need medical help for your tourettes outbursts but under obamacare you wont get it.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Oh boy are you an '(x)hat' !!! Thank 'Love, Light & Logic' for The NHS then, innit - scumsucker ?!! Is it time to call you a 'Randian Retard & Republicunt Reptile' yet ?!

temet nosce ...

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

aren't there drugs that control tourettes? you certainly need them.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

You still "don't have a word to say about 'The Staggering Costs of the Ever Burgeoning Imperial Military Expenditure of The U$A'" it seems !!! + Stop trying to promote Big-Pharma ... fukwit !!

Or are you a drug pusher, using your 'wannabe impressionistic colour compositions' to front your ill gotten nefarious gains and unmentionable doings ?!

cave - anguis in herba ...

[ps : re. your 'brainfart' below ... your needle has stuck on the record and you've become rather boring !!]

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

get those meds, you really need them.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Americans have over 60 trillion in net worth most of it in the top 10%, so actually it's just a matter of moving the money from savings to the credit card, and of course the political will to levy the tax to do it. It is time we let those that benefitted from all that tax stimulus pay the debt we ran up to give it to them., I would say a 99% inheritance tax after say 5 million should do it in a decade or so. (We got a lot of very rich old people).

[-] 1 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

you never answered my question - do they pay you to do this shit or do you do it for fun - are you interested in the truth or just want to hold on to your free market fundamentalism

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

i am not paid to be on the computer talking to the twits of ows. fun? you have a twisted idea of what fun is.

[-] 1 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

then you must be doing it to save the world - how selfless of you - not very capitalist really. you expect anyone to believe this?

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Could be one of two things:

  1. Folks want something for nothing. They like the union protection but don't want to pay for it, especially, if, in their mind, other people will and they don't have to.

  2. Folks can't afford to pay the union dues because wages are extremely low while the cost of living continues to increase. I think this is more likely the real reason why people don't want to pay the dues. They simply can't afford to.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I think people are cutting back wherever they can, if you give them an option they would pay less tax, but that does not mean they do not love America, I mean Romney paid only 14% on over 20 million, lots of people paid much more, but I am sure that doesn't mean he wouldn't love to have the country.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

In his mind he already has the country.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Further to your comment, I append an interesting and revealing article :

fiat justitia ..

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

The American worker is starting to feel the cost of car elevators, maybe if we move together in the most effective way possible we can slow them down and give the average joe a shot.

[-] 2 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

I think that we have to do more than that ! The system is rotten to the core !! Americans urgently need to reclaim and assert what is left of their demoCRAZY deMOCKERYcy in any way possible and they must demand 'Manually Counted Paper Ballots' everywhere throughout their once great country !!!

multum in parvo...

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I feel that by undoing some of the "group think" that has been imposed, for instance this connecting money with freedom, we can get people to see what is really happening, to change policy certain things must be done, as you may know as I see it, and as history shows, two parties is all that is viable at any one time, so I say it's time for one to go because neither of these are doing what we need, so it's take down the crazies and split the decent D's from the others.

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

How and why do you propose to go from a de facto 'One Corporate Pro Imperial War Party With Two Factions' system prevalent now, to an explicitly One Party State with Two New Factions ?!!! And why would you want to ?!! Aren't there far more possibilities after November in a 'Multiplicity of Pro 99% Independents' which shrivels both the present 'captured / bought and paid for Binary' into Oblivion !

ad iudicium ...

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

What I want does not change the Constitution, it is what it is, what I am saying is that, given how crazed the Republican Party is OWS should be able to expose to America what pure support for the 1% looks like, if we do that we can kill the GOP, yes to take control of our government we will need public funding for public elections, that means we need more Ds in office, I live in AZ we have had public funding for over ten years so I know how hard the GOP fight it every day, if you want to get the money out you must get the GOP out.

[-] 4 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

'Republicons' are seriously crazed and way to the right of almost everything else in the Known Galaxy but internalised, inherent and implicit in your comment above is the notion, belief and assumption that The Democraps are somehow not captured, bought and paid for by The Very Same Corporate / Imperial / Industrial / Military / Bankster / Parasitic, Class as The Infernal Republicunts !!!

With respect, I really think that you are seriously flawed in this thinking and strategy !!

This seems to be hard wired binary thinking and a license for disappointment !

ad iudicium ...

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

"Still, the issue of workplace sex discrimination against women threatens to become a partisan issue in a presidential election year. Only a day before the attorneys made their announcement, the Paycheck Fairness Act went down on a procedural vote in the U.S. Senate.

Democrats, under Senate rules, needed 60 votes to bring the proposed act to the floor. The procedural vote went along strict party lines, 52-47, with the two independent senators voting with Democrats and Sen. Mark Kirk, R-Ill., not voting,"

To me this sort of thing matters, I'm not saying anybody is perfect, what I'm saying is that if we don't stop the GOP what we've seen so far is nothing.

http://www.equities.com/news/news-headline-story?dt=2012-06-10&val=153378&cat=headline

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

Please don't be so querulous and pedantic re. your comment below. Read carefully what I wrote. Your comment above was interesting but reference to "The Independents" was "The most interesting" part for me.

In further reply to your comment below, I'm not as interested in 'The Republicons' being "100% wrong" as that is almost taken as read on practically Any Issue and I am more than willing to "consider more the effect of what" I do. In fact 'frf' feel free to sound off and illuminate me and I promise not to be "querulous and pedantic" in response.

fiat lux ...

[-] 1 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

The most interesting part of your interesting comment for me was : "with the two independent senators ..." !!! Now try to extrapolate this further and way beyond November !! Thus consider that the (faux)Two Party {pseudo}Binary has got The US 99% to the situation that it finds itself in so more of the same won't really change things !

ad iudicium ...

[-] 3 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Joe Lieberman and Bernie Sanders in Joe’s case I would rather have the Democrat that tried to beat him and Bernie is one of the best and we are about to get another from that area I think that’s great, the GOP is so weak in the far north east that we are starting to get some headway, now we just have to do that across the country, make the GOP so weak we can get a seat at the table so to speak.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

So the interesting part isn't how the GOP were 100% wrong and the D's were 100% right on this issue? OK but I do wish you would consider more the effect of what you do.

[Removed]

[-] 1 points by BoycottCoke (275) 2 years ago

I'm with you on that.

I think if this is still going in, I'm gonna roll up with some of the guys from my group to show support for these men and women in this struggle this weekend. I'm out of town now, otherwise I would be there now.

We need to show strength in numbers, so the people take notice and gets interested in the issue.

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

i never cared for picasso ( any and all of his periods). hopper, doesnt interest me, nor do rothko or lichtenstein.

[-] 3 points by shadz66 (19985) 2 years ago

So still zip to say on the matter of 'The Staggering Costs of the Ever Burgeoning Imperial Military Expenditure of The U$A' during your musings on "Govt. Expenditure"

So how about - "It’s Not Our Job To Take Power, It’s Our Job To Fight Power !" ; Chris Hedges speaking at Occupy National Gathering in Philadelphia :

On Ayn Rand ... any thoughts ?

multum in parvo ...

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

romney did nothing illegal regarding his taxes. geithner did .

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

So what did I say about geithner?

But as long as you brought it up.

Did Saddam Hussein ever do anything “illegal”?

When you write the laws you don’t have to break them to be evil.

All I’m saying is that the fact that people have stopped paying dues doesn’t mean they have broken the new Scott Walker law nor that they don’t love their unions, no more so than Romney paying less in tax means that he doesn’t love America. But then again maybe he doesn’t, I mean America needs the money even more than the unions, don’t you think?

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

when you're a dictator nothing is illegal but murdering thousands of your own citzens is cerainly immoral. obama and his wife , following the tax code, gave each of their daughters 13,000 , tax free, that 's 26,000 to each daughter. thats 52,000 that, according to the tax code they did not have to pay taxes on. obama has said that he doesnt pay enough in taxes yet avoids( legally) paying them.

[-] 1 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

If I had the option, I would not pay my union dues. The reason being is that if I think a service which I am paying for is inadequate, then I would like the option to refuse to pay for it. Why can't I opt-out of the union? Isn't it somewhat fascist to force each employee to be in the union?

I am at more of a grievance against my union than against my corporate employer. I expect my rights to be exploited by my employer, and I expect my rights not to be exploited by my union. Yet I am paying for my union to exploit me, whereas my employer just does it for free.

[-] 4 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Very good points. I can't argue with anything you say. Unions should certainly not be forced on people as many of them are complete failures. However, labor does need some way to curtail the exploitation, no? How can we do that? Somehow we have to change the ethos of the nation and how it values labor and, along with that, the economic system as well. No small task.

[-] 2 points by brosefstalin (139) from Wantagh, NY 2 years ago

I have thought about that, and a conclusion I've come to on the point of unions is perhaps borrowed from the idea of competitive free markets. If the union were afraid that membership would drop, then they would do all they can to prove that the union is worthwhile.

Of course, I also find to be ridiculous the idea that there are executives in the union who make their living solely on the labors of their union members. When an executive finds his job to be the arbiter of the downtrodden, yet removes himself from any position to hear the whispers of desperation from those he is paid to protect, he can't possibly be expected to act appropriately.

But I am a strict anarchist and idealist. I think any man whose job is to protect the unprotected should put himself in their position. Why aren't the presidents of these unions simple deli workers or cashiers? Why must they sit in offices rather than on the battlefield? If you asked me, anyway, the idea of things like executives, presidents of countries, and politicians in general are passe concepts from medieval hearts.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

I agree completely. We live in a materialistic society that values success in material terms and people are addicted to power and money because they see worth in that. It's very sad. That's why we need a fundamental change to our ethos, to what is important to us, because we are empty the way we are now in our values.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

one assumes the employer is making a profit

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Well as long as your being exploited I guess it's all good!

[-] -1 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

perhaps the people dont like what their union is doing with dues money, like backing a political party that the dues payer doesnt like.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Still thinking about this? No. I disagree. They like the protection, they just either don't want to pay or can't afford to pay.

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

the unions spent millions of union dues money to oust walker. walker won, by a lot and plenty of union members voted for him.

[-] 2 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Many Americans vote against their own interests.

[-] -1 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

yes, especially those that voted for obama.

[-] 1 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

8 killed in Pakistan by drone July 1 , 2012

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

hillary . on the behalf of obama just apologized to pakistan.

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

the union leaders dont like voluntary dues payments because it takes away their repiled upon cash which they use to back dems. union wages are low? you must be kidding.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Really sparky you in Romney's camp that far? This is a chance to jump on Obama? Wisconsin voters decided they prefer Monarchy, all hail the Koch brothers and that's Obama's fault? What we do matters, even the people that voted for Nader in FL in 2000.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Re-read my post and tell me where I mentioned Romney. It has absolutely nothing to do with him AT ALL! It's ALL about Obama's action .... or moreover, his inaction. Wisconsin voters might have supported the D's more there, if they knew that the president had their back. He said he would; or was he just saying what he thought people wanted to hear?

2007: Barack Obama promised to "walk on that picket line" if workers are denied the right to bargain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA9KC8SMu3o

As far as Romney goes, I wouldn't let him lick the sweat off my nuts; much less give him my vote. Just because I call Obama out, doesn't mean I support Mittins. Only a lemming would buy into that BS. You my friend, have your head so far up Obama's ass, that if he sneezed, he would pinch it off. He can, and has done us wrong and screwed the unions it the process.

[-] 1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

you are arguing with a paid Dem poster, so act accordingly.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

like people don't know about you hc, (here's a hint RWT)

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

if I had a dime for every private message I go about you and your little Obama cheerleading friends, from posters who want change, I could buy you a brain.

The typical "you dont agree with me, so you must be with the other "side".... Glad to see you are still reacting like a well trained dog, you idiot.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

You are a right wing media whore and everyone on the site knows it as long as we're being personel and all, you come here to defend the 1% and that's all you do when you're not trying to secure the White House for Romeny, there are many posters who have told me of the work you do, no worry we all know

http://www.hchc.edu/

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Thats funny, because Ive gottne a ton of pm's wondering whats up with all the pro Dem nosense here. From all the real people who actually want change.

Im about as socially liberal as it gets, and more anti war (something you arent) than you, and financially think that until we get control over the central banks, nothing matters.

You're an idiot, extremely poorly educated, and just a typical product from a divisive media.

[-] 3 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

The funny part, is that they ignored all the right wing and libertarian posts.

Now I wonder why that is?

Did you bother to point any of that out to them?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I suppose trolls hide under bridges and in the PMs you speak of, trying to hatch a plan to stamp out the truth are you? well I'd say good luck, but you know. Looking over your stuff though you know it really sucks, you never say anything except when you were telling me about how nice the poor have it getting all that government aide, food stamps and Medicare and ssi I think you were taking about, yeah you're one to worry about the working class alright.

http://occupywallst.org/forum/we-should-strive-to-meet-the-basic-needs-of-everyo/#comment-775341

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

The "trolls" you speak of are usually the ones that are at the camps on a regular basis, that can see the crap the airmchairs like you spew.

I insult the masses, you insult the occupiers. Thats incredible.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

you insult the occupiers by claiming to be one

[-] 1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

Lol

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

you guys are co-workers right?

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

You and Obama are co-workers right?

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

In the sense that we both want to defeat Republicans yeah, but after that not so much, hey I'm not holding it against you guys that voted for him in the primaries I know all that change crap sounded good even caused splits in my family, but I just pray as we go forward we can leave behind that weak assed Obama bi-partisan crap and start kicking Republican ass.

[-] 0 points by JadedCitizen (4277) 2 years ago

We need so much change in this country and neither party is capable of providing it.

[-] -2 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

We are about as much coworkers as you three amigos are (you know who the the other two are)....

You're a political train wreck dude. Time to just hit the gas and get it over with. Hopefully the time of you Democrats and Republicans and your corporate sponsors is almost over. But you are pretty loyal, so prob not. hahaha.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I'm sure that a lot of people who voted Nader felt the same about Bush, feelings are nice, but the guy in the office writes the rules or goes to war or what not, you know what I mean. Even I have feelings but I try my best not to let them make me forget how bad Republicans are and anything that keeps them from holding office is worthwhile.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I understand your goals and motives, but for once entertain the idea that the D's & R's are playing "Good cop - Bad cop" while remembering that BOTH get their money from the same puppet masters. If you look at recent history, it sure points that way. - Cheers :)

[-] -2 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

problem is that's the same story Nader told and it gave us Bush and all that followed, it's good to push for better, but it's stupid to let Republicans win

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

The other problem is that if you support the status quo - you'll get the status quo. My conscious won't let me do that.

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

Like when the left did what it usually does and voted Nader and the right stuck together, that kind of status quo? what I am in favor of is telling the truth, I think that's all we have to do and the truth is the GOP have been working night and day for the 1% for thirty years at least if we expose them for what they really are then we can change things, if we just dump on the whole ideal of changing who is in office then we can't really affect what they do, we have to change the way we think about money entirely and I post regularly on how I think we can best do that, but nothing changes what must be done if we want them to listen we must affect the outcome.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

The Nader story that you keep bringing up, is what the mainstream media sells. It's time to unplug. The Supreme Court decided that election. They don't want multiple candidates. They want you to choose between one of the two bought corporate candidates. Choosing EITHER one or not giving others the right to run is essentially supporting the status-quo.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

really?

I hardly heard it at all, but either way it happens to be true, Nader help Bush into the White House.

Here's about 2500 Nader stories from the time frame, seems to be out there but "main stream" I don't know about that. Seems to be a number of discussions:

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=news+archive&oq=news+archive&gs_l=news-cc.1.0.43j43i400.23200.30078.0.33255.12.6.0.6.6.0.133.702.0j6.6.0...0.0.EFvfM6BYQvc#q=nader&hl=en&gl=us&sa=X&ei=EzX3T-iQOOOC2AWhzKj6Bg&ved=0CC8QpwUoCw&source=lnt&tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min%3A11%2F1%2F2000%2Ccd_max%3A2%2F1%2F2001&tbm=nws&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=7d29b0f570a39acd&biw=1680&bih=923

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

the reason I bring up the Nader story here is that there is little I can do about Governer Scott's attempts to remove voters, except tell people don't help republicans win, but what i do see as a danger is people thinking that "they're both the same" or that which ever wins doesn't matter, that's what the Nader people said, that's what I see people here being tempted by, as I was in 1980, but after Reagan, then Bush, whom I did vote against (for Gore) I know that the biggest danger any movement like this has is that it will fail to see a difference and act, it's easy to raise undirected anger, that's what the right does all the time, then they trun it against "the government" and convince people that the Ds want government, and that's bad or something along those lines, I think the GOP has become so extreme that if we focus we can kill one of the two major parties and gues what there wouldn't be a "two party" domatnated system then things would break wide open

[Removed]

[-] -1 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

You're such a jackass

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

sometimes being nice just doesn't get the job done

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

This is something we can agree on. I didn't enjoy making the last comment I posted to you; but you pushed me ............. so I pushed back. It's a shame because you and I share many core values.

[-] 1 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I know you do good research, I am a little pissed off about Nader going after Gore because he took money from rich people, I mean he eats food and breaths air too, rich people is where the money is, so that's why you attack him, when you can't speak about policy it's a sure sign that you not telling something, anyway, we ended up with Bush, when we were so close to having Gore, and everything would be different if Nader had not been so hung up on where Gore's money was coming from, I mean that's all he talked about, I remember it well, so yeah I'm a little pissed if you see what's happening to the planet you might understand, but you are right Obama was always going to be a mistake that why I didn't vote for him till it came time to beat the Republican, same reason I'll vote for him again and hope we do better going forward, we could do some something in the democratic primaries if we rolled up our sleeves and got to work. Anyway I got “stuff” you know people dying and all, so I’m a little off.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Florida never finished recounting all of the votes in 2000 when the SC 'awarded' bush the presidency. It was a total sham and I couldn't believe the American people allowed that to happen. I thought for sure that we would rise up and demand that ALL the votes be counted; but we passively sat by and accepted who the SC wanted for president. As it stood, Gore won the popular vote by 543,895 votes ( http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2000/prespop.htm ), but lost the electoral collage. So without all of the votes counted, I find it hard to blame anyone except the SC.

Besides; your assertion that Nader was the spoiler, is saying that the only people that SHOULD run are D's & R's. That reduces our choices to the 2 corporate owned parties. Personally, I want MANY choices.

As for the environment, since corporations contribute to most of the pollution & to most of the politicians, the 2 corporate parties are bound to make things worse.

[-] 2 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

I want a lot of things, but one of the things I already got is a US Constitution and yes I am saying that on Election Day it is down to two, that's just the way it is, like throwing a rock into the air it doesn't matter if you want it to come down or not.

There is simply no way around the fact that if Nader had been out there stumping hard for Gore he could of brought several thousands voters by evidenced by the fact that he got a hundred thousand to vote for him. If that had been what Nader did instead of spending his time lying about how "they're all the same" then Gore would have been President, now there is nothing I can do about two main parties or gravity, but I can try to stop another Bush from being elected. And if we work hard we can kill the GOP and make room for a party for the people.

[-] 3 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

We have another bush in the WH now! Tell me ...... how did the "party for the people" work for us during Obama's first two years, when they had the whole enchilada. The reason he didn't want to prosecute bush and his cronies, is because he wanted to do more of the same .......... and much more.

Here's a short list ( long list has 304 ) of the reasons that I won't vote for him again:

  1. He did not even propose the public option healthcare system: he had campaigned on that system, promising to propose it. (Wikipedia: ”President Barack Obama promoted the idea of the public option while running for election. After becoming President, Obama downplayed the need for a public health insurance option including calling it a “sliver” of health care reform,[4] but had not given up pursuing the idea before the health care reform was passed.[5] The preceding statement is disputed by evidence that the Obama administration had agreed to drop the public option from the final plan in the summer of 2009[6] in a back room deal with representatives of the for-profit hospital lobby[7]“)

  2. He has appointed countless Wall Streeters to his top economic team, failing to appoint labor voices like Robert Reich.

  3. He has bailed out Wall Street instead of Main Street: remember TARP? And then the banks dispensed $6 billion in bonuses in that year to its executives.

  4. He failed to attack the mortgage crisis, leaving an elephant still in our “room”, with one-third of home mortgages now underwater.

  5. He failed to veto the National Defense Authorization Act , doing away with habeous corpus, allowing the government to arrest and detain indefinitely without a trial or hearing. Actually he requested it !! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DNDHbT44cY

  6. He agreed to an extension of the Bush tax cuts for the rich, and on top of that, he agreed to an egregious reduction of the estate taxes on the rich, exempting as much as $10 million from any estate taxes and lowering the estate tax rate down to a ridiculous rate of 35%, when our country has a $15 trillion debt. That alone saved the Walton heirs $17 billion in taxes.

  7. He has failed to indict and imprison any of those banksters involved in all of that fraud on Wall Street from the subprime mortgage, including robo-signing, and selling shit-backed mortgage securities known to be worthless.

  8. He appointed Jeffrey Immelt to head his Jobs Council when GE has been saying “China, China, China,” and shipping all jobs overseas while closing plants here in the US.

  9. President Obama is now considering and proposing to lower the corporate tax rate to 26%, when corporations are not only at a low-time rate of paying taxes but getting billions in tax subsidies from our government and opening up offices on the 19th floor of one building on the Cayman Islands to avoid taxes altogether.

  10. President Obama spoke in favor of PIPA and SOPA, when the internet is the last vestige of free speech and the availability of free information to the general public.

  11. There were no indictments by President Obama of all the contractor fraud reported on by Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul in a Congressional Report released over a year ago. Whenever the rich and big corporations are caught in fraud, Eric Holder adopts a policy of “looking forward”, instead of holding them accountable.

  12. President Obama agreed to the “grand bargain” (thank, God, Boehner did not accept it) to cut over $2 trillion in spending, including social security, medicare, medicaid, and other social safety-net programs merely in return for hypothetical “revenue increases” of $800 billion relying on “dynamic scoring”.

  13. President Obama has done nothing to level the trade treaties, where corporations are shipping labor to Cambodia (22.5 cents per hour), China, Philippines, etc., where labor is paid 25 cents per hour. This is exporting slavery to other countries. Where is the level playing field for Americans?

  14. President Obama in 2009 only proposed $140 billion in infrastructure spending when Paul Krugman and other economists predicted that $1.5 trillion was needed for our economy to recover. And last year only proposed a paltry $108 billion in infrastructure spending.

  15. President Obama praised the recent JOBS Act, which allows corporations to go public and raise capital without audited financial information in their public presentations for the first five years, allowing them to present fictitious numbers and defraud investors?

  16. President Obama has failed to propose the return of Glass-Steagall, separating commercial and investment banking, which will soon plunge us back into another mega-bailout of Wall Street.

  17. President Obama has failed to propose the break up of the big banks and corporations. What ever happened to the Sherman Anti-Trust Act?

  18. President Obama touted a $25 billion robo-signing settlement when a trillion dollars of our pension and retirement funds were stolen.

  19. While campaigning, President Obama promised to put on his walking shoes for labor, but failed to even show up in Wisconsin and walk the picket line against Governor Walker.

  20. President Obama has not declared war on the Supreme Court, as President Roosevelt did, to oppose the corporate/rich posture of Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts. Why not take them on?

  21. President Obama has arrested and raided more marijuana users in less than four years than George Bush did in eight years. Why is President Obama proposing cuts to social security, medicare, and medicaid while spending more on marijuana arrests and raids, especially when a majority of Americans are for legalization of pot and for the open sale of marijuana for medical use?

Time and time again President Obama did not fight the good fight for working Americans, who are losing their jobs, health insurance, homes, dignity, etc.

I am tired of the lame excuse of how we must vote for Obama because of the Supreme Court. How can anyone believe that Obama would not disappoint progressives on that issue too, after he failed to undertake a recess appointment of Elizabeth Warren to head the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, a position to which she was more entitled to direct than any other American?

[-] 0 points by factsrfun (7065) from Phoenix, AZ 2 years ago

so your answer is to help Romney? you do not address the fact that on election day it is down to two

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Get only 30 seats in congress that are outside the D/R scam, and expose all the corruption/deal making/media propoganda. Watch the entire thing start to change.

Its really that simple. The hard part is, an apathetic public does not lead to it. The people have lost their way.

[-] 1 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Or it's rigged and that would make it appear that people have lost their way. The peoples' power and choices are limited at best.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Who is it ? Jill Stein? I really like Her but again if you have asshole obstructionists in the senate and congress the President is screwed.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Jill Stein is the Green Party candidate ( http://www.jillstein.org/ ) She's on the ballot in MD.

We ALWAYS have obstructionists in the senate and congress. It's why we can't get anything done and why I've been saying our government is broken at the core; and it needs a reset. Although I will vote; I'm starting to believe that the deck is stacked, and that voting is just entertainment for the masses. Kinda' like a feel-good-thing when the puppet you voted for wins.

Hell, the senate even changed the meaning of the filibuster, allowing one person the ability to kill a bill, and now requires a super majority for most bills to pass. It's perfect cover to keep the status-quo for the 1% and corps.

http://osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

That is why the public must be involved. This will happen no matter who you/we have in office. This will happen in every/any form of government where the people do not fully participate or are not allowed to.

This is why we are here - this is why we are on the outside looking in - we have let our government do it's own thing without remonstration.

Choose any system of government you want - but if it does not involve the population - then it is a failure - PERIOD.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I couldn't agree with you more !!!!!!!!!!!

http://osixs.org/Rev2_menu_commonsense.aspx

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yes this is the education to share - along with common sense goals.

This truly is not rocket science. No it does not have to be complicated. Ask any engineer that is worth anything and they will tell you to keep it simple - as the more complicated something is - the more ways it can break down.

We are people - we all have the same wants and needs - how much simpler can it get?

Shift your paradigm People.

Unite in common cause - health and prosperity for all - it is that simple.

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Getting as many people in there that are outside the D/R scam is the key. I dont care if they are Socialist Workers Party or Libertarian. Green or Independent.

Get a handful in there, get the corruption exposed, watch the whole thing start to change.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Push issues not people - not party's. Make all candidates toe the line of the peoples issues.

[-] -1 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

Candidates that take corporate money have already shown whose side they are on. They will blantanly screw you just like they always do.

Social issues, they will bend on. Economic ones havent changed in a long long time.

Most of the upcoming election's politicians are already bought. They've already been paid for. Once they win, its time to repay the fee for "getting into the club".

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Money out of government - have you not been paying attention?

Move to Amend - end corpoRAT person hood - this is a 1st step in the right direction.

[-] 2 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

If you guys would like a little update, you might be in for a laugh. We plan to picket 4 Irving Place tomorrow, and Con Edison upper management has been asking a judge to actually outlaw the protests! I am not making this up! Con Edison is claiming "the picketing is causing us to not be able to do the job which puts public safety at risk". Can you imagine that!? We know it's short notice, but any OWS people who can make it down there tomorrow 8AM to 12PM, you will not go unnoticed!

[-] 2 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

dont worry.. there is a heat wave and storms coming.. the people themselves will demand your services.. con ed will have no choice.. when the states have to declare a disaster area because theres no electric.. con ed will cave

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Don't be too sure. They have the option to hire scabs and retirees on an hourly basis for emergencies.

"We've had a few scattered outages, but that is normal even when it is not hot," said Con Ed spokesman Mike Clendenon. He said there were some small power disruptions in the Bronx and Queens boroughs as well as a manhole fire in Brooklyn.

The company has trained 5,000 managers to respond to emergencies in place of the 8,500 unionized workers who were locked out when contract talks stalled at midnight Saturday.

Clendenon said that in addition to managers handling outages, manhole fires or downed trees, Con Ed was also planning to hire retirees on an hourly basis for emergencies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/02/us-consolidatededison-lockout-idUSBRE8610W620120702

[-] 5 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Did you notice that there's 5,000 management positions in the company for 8,500 union workers? That's one supervisor per two employees! And they're trying to blame the UNION WORKERS for their costs?

[-] 4 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

I did and it's typical. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians. I can imagine managements' horror when they were asked to do a days physical work.

BTW - I worked fabricating and tying-in the Central Manhattan meter station, when it was upgraded in the mid 90's. The pipe coming from under the road jumped big time, and the welders had a horrendous line-up. That tie-in weld is way out of code ( about 1/4 of the the 36" pipe, has NO bead !! ) ....... X-ray rejected it, but the company accepted it anyway, due to the cost of fixing it right and the need to put it back in service. There is a huge amount of natural gas that passes through that station; so if you go back to work ...... be careful !!

[-] 1 points by gestopomillyy (1695) 2 years ago

i dont think the managers will work outside very long lol well they might as they cant get another job.. but then they will start trying to unionize after a short while, they know they are being taken advantage of. the old men will get injured and or die from heat stroke. they really have no choice in the long run. if the union workers can just hold out a little while longer they will get what they deserve.

[-] 2 points by SparkyJP (1646) from Westminster, MD 2 years ago

Up in that area, you might see a lot of violence break out, if scabs start x-ing the line. There's been a lot of union breaking effort lately; this may just be their next target. Another effort to break the middle class. As for the managers, I think they'll do as there told and keep their tails between their legs. Time will tell.

[-] 1 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

Frank, Was glad to hear on the radio this morning that the company is going to give the workers their healthcare coverage back while the negotiations continue. What's going on with the talks? It's very hard to get any specific details from the few short clips/stories that are out.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

That is good news.

[-] 1 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Wow....they are trying to get a court order to not allow us to protest!!!

http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2012/07/06/con-edison-seeks-court-intervention-in-union-protests/

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

greedy union busting 1% plutocrats.

[-] 1 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

I am now worried that they will make it illegal for us to protest, so I no longer am going to do so, and since I don't want any of you getting in trouble, please don't protest as it looks like they are going to make it unlawful. Thank you anyway, all!

[-] 4 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

It seems unamerican to make protest illegal.

unbelievable.

Good luck.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

You should be pissed at the union leadership as well.

The Union decided not to take a two week contract extension that the company offered over the weekend. Con Ed spokesman Mike Clendenin said that would have ensured workers health insurance was uninterrupted at least for two more weeks, but not now.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Unions have only one bit of leverage. Strikes! Corp Mgmt tried to take away the unions power! to emaciate them!

The Union leadership was entirely correct in refusing to cave in to that unreasonable demand by the corrupt, greedy, thug like mgmt goons who attempted to impose it.

And those same corrupt, greedy mgmt goons are wrong to lock out the workers. It is damned unamerican. Support OWS. Vote out anti union politicians.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

How is extending the current contract for 2 weeks "caving in"?

The employees would have had work and benefits while the union was negotiating the new contract.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

The union had to give their RIGHT to strike! Do you understand. No one should give up their rights. The corrupt, greedy corp 1% goons should never ask workers to give up their rights. To make that a condition to negotiate is union busting tactics.!

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

They had to give up the right to strike for two weeks, that is all

If the union leadership went with the two week extension while they negotiated then a lot of folks would still have benefits.

I would be pissed if union leadership representing me made a fool decision like that.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Then you don't mind giving up your rights to the corp 1%.

I think the right to strike is sacrosanct. The corp has to deal with that fact. The union didn't demand that the cortp give up their right to lock the workers out. And mgmt didn't offer to give up that right.

Rights are precious. To some of us. You don't care because you hate unions perhaps.

You are a partisan. You don't seem to care about workers or the 99%. I don't think you support OWS!

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

I don't know much about this 99%. I think it is a bit arrogant to claim you speak for 99% of the people.

I care about the people that are now without a paycheck and without benefits. That is all I am saying. I wish they could have extended for two weeks and I bet if you ask the workers that have no paycheck of benefits they would agree with me.

[-] -1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

No they don't agree with you. You are clearly a corp shill!. I've been to the picket line on 17th st in Manhattan and the picket line on 4th ave in bklyn.

You don't know what your talkin about.

These good, honest, hard working Americans know better than to give up their rights and the only leverage they have to the 1% corrupt corp goons.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

There were about 300 people only some of which were Con Ed workers. There are 8,500 people affected so I am not sure how you would know what the other 8,200 workers are thinking any more than you know what 99% of America believes.

Consolidated Edison and the union representing its employees are returning to the bargaining table. It would have been nice for the employees to have wages and benefits white they were at the table. A simple extension would have allowed it.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

It would have been nice of the corrupt 1% mgmt didn't try to take away the good honest hard working union members right to strike away.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Of course it would, even if it was only for two week while they negotiated they should have trusted the union not to strike during negotiations.

To me it seems both sides made mistakes.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

I support the workers!! As such I disagree that they (or their union) made any mistakes. The problem is that corrupt 1% mgmt is attempting to break the union. Mgmt is trying to take away the workers pension!! Not right! Poor form. Mgmt wants to increase worker Healthcare costs!! And cut worker pay.! All wrong. The corp has enough money to cover the commitments they have previously made.

[-] 2 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

From the Con Ed Web Site:

As our contract expiration approached late Saturday night, management asked the union leadership to agree to extend the contract for two weeks.

The union leadership refused.

Management then agreed not to lock union employees out without seven days notice as long as the union agreed not to strike without seven days notice.

The union leadership refused.

On Sunday night, management asked union leadership to allow our employees to return to work immediately with only 72 hours notice of a strike.

The union leadership refused.

These offers are still good.

Advance notice is important so that we can plan for the safe and reliable operation of our complex energy systems. Imagine if a crew working on an outage at your home or business suddenly picked up their tools and left. We owe it to you – our customers – to prepare for any work stoppage. If workers could walk off the job without warning, we would risk disruption to the system and to the reliable service we provide you, our customers.

We need to balance the demands of the union leadership with the needs of our customers.

http://www.coned.com/customer-info/page2.asp

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

I support the workers!!

The mistake was not taking the two week extension so the WORKERS could have BENEFITS for two more weeks.

[-] 1 points by fiftyfourforty (1077) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"The mistake was not taking the two week extension so the WORKERS could have BENEFITS for two more weeks."

and then get kicked to the curb.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Support OWS. Vote out anti union politicians.

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Never give up your rights. That is for fools.

[-] 1 points by JoeTheFarmer (2654) 2 years ago

Never give up your benefits. That is for fools.

[-] -2 points by caseman (-24) 2 years ago

Unions are destroying America

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Corrupt Corp 1% greed is destroying the 99% of working Americans.

[-] -3 points by caseman (-24) 2 years ago

we need more union busting folks like Gov Walker. He gets the job done

[-] 0 points by imatool1961 (0) 2 years ago

dont like the job go get another one my union brother, I was local 608 for 30 years and I know exactly how it works, corrupt criminals. My son is non union electritian goes to work everyday and enjoys good benifits, while douche bags occupy air space and want donations so they dont have to work

[+] -5 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You certainly sound like a tool - imatool1961 . Don't sound like your union either - you sound like a shill though.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your comment - it was rather vague - but the jist of it sounded like - Anti-Ows - and a stupid suggestion to find work elsewhere when there is none.


[-] 0 points by imatool1961 (1) 8 hours ago

dont like the job go get another one my union brother, I was local 608 for 30 years and I know exactly how it works, corrupt criminals. My son is non union electritian goes to work everyday and enjoys good benifits, while douche bags occupy air space and want donations so they dont have to work ↥twinkle ↧stinkle reply permalink

[Removed]

[-] -2 points by caseman (-24) 2 years ago

Unions are job killers and need to be eliminated

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

Says who?

[-] -1 points by caseman (-24) 2 years ago

If you do some research other than this lame site then you would know

[-] 2 points by shoozTroll (17632) 2 years ago

I have already done that.

It is obvious that you have not.

Will you now answer the question as asked?

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

why was your contract not re negotiated?

[-] 4 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

We tried. They told us no 3% cost of living adjustments, no raise, remove your pension everyone was working for and was told we were getting, you can't retire at 55 like we originally said you could, your paycheck will be lower due to doubling what you give us for medical, and your medical co-pay will more than double.

We said we don't agree, and to please keep things the way they were, not make them worse. They disagreed. We continued negotiating after midnight and after 2 hours of it, they said "get lost". They locked us out.

[-] 4 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Frank, don't pay attention to the troll salta. It's good that you are seeking the support of Occupy. I'd tell you that this website is not the official Occupy Wall Street Website, it is vaguely affiliated in an anarchist sort of way. I'd suggest you go to this website and see what you can do with those folks. They are Occupy Wall Street: http://www.nycga.net/

[-] 3 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thank you so much, frogmanofbonero. You guys are the best.

[-] 2 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 2 years ago

I wish you all well, Local 1-2. I hope you find a way to connect with actual Occupy activists. I know they've gone to bat for and with unions before.

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

go get 'em froggie. occupy your pond.

[+] -5 points by Growup6 (-125) 2 years ago

You can strike and they can lock you out. That's labor negotiations for you. If your side had won, you'd happily drive up electricity rates and wouldn't think twice about it. You're watching your interest and ConEd is watching its interests. So you didn't get you way. Quit being a pussy about it.

[-] 2 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Haha workers control the electricity rates? What planet do you live on? Pricing is determined by management.

[-] -1 points by Growup6 (-125) 2 years ago

Sure, the costs just vanish. Bloated costs go into the rate base and are passed on in electricity rates. Customers without a choice, pay the rate. Unions 101 is that unions do best when customers don't have a choice. When customers have a choice and don't see extra value for the extra union costs, they go elsewhere and the unions loses. That's how it works.

That's why unions are so prevalent in government. Their costs get passed onto customers because the customers don't have a choice.

It's like with GM. The UAW added cost, but not value. The union defended the drunks and incompetents; it didn't weed them out. So, the union added costs and detracted value. In the marketplace, customers weren't going to pay for it and when given a choice of other makes, the market share of the Big 3 collapsed and with it the UAW collapsed. To this day, UAW-made means nothing as a badge of added value.

[-] 4 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Con Ed's CEO makes $11 million a year and the board of directors just gave themselves a 20% raise. That's why the rates are going up.

And yes, you can choose not to buy Con Ed's electricity in New York City. Get your facts straight before you run your mouth.

[-] -1 points by Growup6 (-125) 2 years ago

Really. Say, you maybe passed 5th grade math, right? Take the CEO's pay and the board's pay and see what that is as share of the labor cost of Con Ed. Their incomes may offend you, but they're a small group of people and not the thousands of other employees. It's immaterial to the company's overall costs. Run your math before you run your mouth.

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

"Run your math"? English only here, pal.

[-] -1 points by Growup6 (-125) 2 years ago

Still working it through? LOL. The compensation of the CEO and board, while possibly objectionable as a matter of principle, is meaningless to the overall numbers.

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Getting paid over $4,000 an hour is hardly chump change.

[+] -8 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

con ed wanted to extend the current conract, your union leaders said no.

[-] 5 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Nice try. They asked us to work through the heatwave because they couldn't get enough scabs and management people to fill our duties. Then, after the heatwave, they would have just locked us out or made us strike. Good try, though.

[+] -10 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

about your pension, they wanted to convert into a 401k, why are you against that?

[-] 8 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

Salta, I'm a union member with Verizon. They're attempting the same butt rape on us as Con Ed is with their workers. When you've worked 20 years with 1% and 2% raises and you've been told you're getting a pension, and then they want to kill the pension and give you a little better match on the 401k, it doesn't nearly make up the difference in money you were expecting to get. You also don't have enough time at that point to save enough money to make up the difference. It is just a way for a greedy corporation to get their mitts on the pension fund. Any decent person should be disgusted with this kind of heartless money grab. And don't even get me started on the politicians that are supposed to be representing the people but instead are in the back pockets of these scumbags.

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

you mean obama?

[-] 0 points by hchc (3297) from Tampa, FL 2 years ago

I mean ALL of them.

[+] -6 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

how many people work without any pensions, no raises, no benefits? as for a heartless money grab, look to obamacare. taxes up front, no medical benefits for anyone. 2700 pages of garbage, bigger govt, more control and higher taxes. a dictation of behavior. as govt. expands , liberty contracts.

[-] 3 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

"how many people work without any pensions, no raises, no benefits?" This is the downward death spiral of the American middle class when you start to envy the fact that I've got a pension and benefits. You should want to see more companies offer this instead of siding with the CEO's who make 10,15,25 million a year and are looking to take them away from EVERYBODY! Then maybe you'll have these things also. And why the hell are you injecting Obamacare into this conversation?

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

what makes you think i envy your pension or your benefits? i am happy with the choices i have made. how old are you?

[-] 4 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

It's obviously not possible to have a normal conversation with you. Now I understand why your comments rating is a NEGATIVE 191. I was attempting to answer your question about why a person would not want their pension converted to a 401k and then for some reason you injected Obama and Obamacare into it. If you hate unions and you are happy with where you are in life then more power to ya, but I've been in the workforce for quite a while now and I'm finding this John Galt attitude about "in capitalism if you work hard and you will always do well" to be utter bullshit. It seems to me that a few people at the top have stacked the deck against the working guy and I'd like to see the rest of the middle class wake up to this instead of being useful tools.

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

keep thinking of yourself as a victim, the dems love you and depend on you for that.

[-] 7 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I'd say that those who pick a pension over extra money to gamble with in their 401k are more intelligent, and less compulsive and reckless than those who prefer a volatile market to bet their futures on . A bird in the hand, and all that great pizzazz.

Most people want their pension because The Market, under Wall Street's stewardship, just does not give a good return on investment.

That is unless you happen to be a gambler.

[-] 7 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Because I, like many other people, took this job under the guise of having a pension. The hours are horrible, the work conditions are horrible, the job is dangerous, we get reprimanded for using the bathroom, but we put up with it. Why? Because they have a pension. If I would have known 15 years ago when I took this job that there would be no pension, I would have worked elsewhere. I HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR THEM, ACCEPTING HARASSMENT AND LOUSY WAGES AND THE WORST HEALTHCARE PROVIDER IN THE USA FOR FIFTEEN YEARS BECAUSE OF THE GUISE THAT I WOULD GET A PENSION WHEN I RETIRE!!! I could work at Best Buy if I wanted some crap 401k-only plan!

[-] 6 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

I feel for you bro'. I believe every aspect of American life is about to be down sized. And if no one fights for their rights, then they are the ones who will be thrown under the bus. Your benefits are being thrashed because no one wants to tax the rich more. It is quite discouraging to see the electorate defend one minority class at the expense of the over all. I wish you the best.

[-] 5 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

Thanks Jesse. Really cool to see support coming from all the way over in Arizona!

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

if you took all the money from the "rich" you couldnt run the fed. govt for more than 1 month. the answer is to cut spending. reduce the size of govt.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Lets try.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

Yep - let us try.

Proper taxation of the wealthy individuals and false persons.

Stop subsidizing Fossil Fuel.

Stop subsidizing business that is making profits with out the need of our ( public ) money.

Stop sending billions of dollars over seas to regimes as the money is not used to help the people - just props up governments that do not take care of their people.

That's a good start.

Anyone else have something "good" to add to this list?

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

say that to all the very rich hollywood supporters of obama. all those at his fund raisers. you really think that they will give all their money to the IRS? obama attacks the rich while gladly taking their money for his campaign.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

There are many "millionaires for the 99%" that support the Buffett rule and would be willing to pay more for the national good. (not your repub wealthy though, your right about that) . Repubs just seem selfish and greedy.

[-] 2 points by MattLHolck (16833) from San Diego, CA 2 years ago

30% top tax income bracket may fall short but it's a good start

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

S/b 95% tax on income (and cap gains) over a million dollars (like the great FDR got.)!

[-] 1 points by JackPulliam3rd (205) 2 years ago

Dont forget Elizabeth Warren. She talks tough on Buffet, but deliberately pays fewer taxes. And her sheep fans just bend over and smile and do what they are told.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Elizabeth Warren is a great, honorable soldier for the 99%! She has made all the right enemies! Pro 1% Right wing wacko repubs in congress who prevented her appointment to to fin consumer protection agency, and the 1% fin industry who continues to exploit the 99%. Go Liz! Support OWS. Vote out anti Buffet rule, pro Norquist politicians.

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

buffett owes the IRS close to a billion $. he is fighting the IRS over this.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Irrelevant.

Support OWS! Vote out anti Buffet rule, pro Norquist politicians!

[-] -1 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

really? then why isnt he paying his taxes?

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Beats me! I don't care. It don't matter. It is....... Ready?.......

Irrelevant!!

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

he is fighting with the IRS that says he owes close to a billions $., and yet he says he doesnt pay enough in taxes. what a hypcrite.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

You've missed the point or you pretend to and choose to distract from the substance of the issue. The wealthy need to pay a whole lot more, to correct the crises they created, and as their patriotic duty dictates.

Forget the Oracle of Omaha. He is one man and his IRS fight is irrelevant. He supports paying more while most of the 1% are so greedy and selfish they do not support paying more.

[-] -1 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You are talking about two different things.

His personal taxes and his business taxes.

His Business holdings are currently in dispute with the IRS - which is not uncommon for multi-conglomerates.

Check all of the other tax issues outstanding with corporations/conglomerates.

This is another reason that businesses need to be kept separate - Parent / child / subsidiary / shell whatever. All should be required to file their own taxes site by site - not a lumped return.

Keep the process clean.

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

sorry vivianne, it IS relevant.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Nope. He supports Buffet rule and would support tax fairness for the 99%.

[-] 5 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

The CEO makes $11 million a year. He can take a pay cut. Also, the board of directors increased its own pay 20%. Why are you for that?

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

private company, they can do what they want.

[-] 4 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Again, why are you for that? You can't even answer a direct question on the internet? Talk about cowardice.

[+] -8 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

i am for private enterprise. free enterprise. dont like the company you work for , leave. it is your choice. how many govt workers are in it for the benefits ? how many union workers are in it for the benefits?

[-] 3 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Once again, you haven't explained why you are for CEOs and boards of directors giving themselves huge raises while cutting employee compensation.

[-] 3 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Good luck getting anything of substance out of him/her.

I think Salta doesn't care about the 99% working Americans. He appears to blindly worship the markets at the expense of the people. He may be one of the 99% who think the 1% is gonna "tinkle down on them". He appears to be anti OWS! And he doesn't appear to be well informed.

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

He's one of those people who would vote Bush Jr. a third term, I get it.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

And rude and abusive as well. He has no respect for people who might disagree a bit. It seems like a waste of time engaging with him.

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

You misunderstand me. I'm trying to get him to waste his time. :)

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

My apologize. Have at it!

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

they are private companies. they do not have to anyone but their stockholders to answer to.

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Again, you dodge the question. You should run for office.

[-] 2 points by JesseHeffran (3903) 2 years ago

'Cause we say so. If they keep slippin', we might just revoke that right. Franknicholasb1976's story is nothing new. Private companies, in great numbers, have been raiding pensions for a few decades, at least. Shit, you guys are helping them raid private pensions as we speak. (Oops, i meant to say public ones.)

[+] -8 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

the union leaders have been raiding the union pension funds. for decades.

[-] 2 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

Untrue. They have negotiated the CREATION of the pensions. Corp 1% mgmt has created the inferior 401k plans to replace the pensions. Get it straight!

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

the 35 million that the union spent to oust walker in wisconsin came from where? UNION DUES

[-] 0 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

So! Whats wrong with that? You are clearly a partisan conservative. You don't stand with the 99% You are anti OWS. I don't need to waste my time with you. I hope you learn that people should support people not corps.

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

is that what union dues are for? playing politics with dues money?

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Your taxpayer dollars went to banks that spent bailout money on lobbyists but you don't have anything to say about that.

[-] 1 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Look up the LIBOR scandal. The banks fleeced us all to the tune of trillions for decades and you want to gripe about union corruption.

Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world.

[-] 0 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

yes , i have something to say about that. i dont believe in bailouts.

[-] 1 points by VQkag2 (16478) 2 years ago

supporting union rights in politics. Yeah. Thats right.

Cleared that up for you?

[-] 2 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

you are an idiot or a quisling - which one would you like? a 401k is just a gift to wall street - they collect huge fees and what do we get - we get to gamble on our retirement - what happens to the losers - remember the tech crash and then this last one - how did your 401k hold up?

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Another problem with 401k's is when "actuaries" convert defined benefit plans (old-fashioned type pensions) into defined contribution plans (401k's). Who the hell knows how they come up with the dollar amount that they come up with and employees have to accept it and live with it. I think these conversions should be heavily investigated.

[-] 2 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

never thought of that side of it - the whole thing is crazy and they get people thinking it is a good thing. gambling for retirement - makes no sense - i have a friend - just retired who debated this with me for decades. he worked for ny state and had the choice of defined benefit or 401k. he wanted to control his own money - well the two crashes disabused him of that notion! he is now in annuities - wants no part of the stock market.

[-] 3 points by beautifulworld (21084) 2 years ago

Most people don't think of the conversion issue. I think it is huge. How on earth does one know if these numbers they come up with are legitimate. Clearly employers are converting defined benefit to defined contribution because it benefits them. How they get away with this, I have no idea. A sleeping citizenry?

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

where do you think pension money is invested???????????? the stock market. i do not have a 401k.

[-] 2 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

do some homework - or at least some thinking - quisling

[+] -5 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

quisling was a traitor to his country as is obama, I am not.

[-] 3 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

shit - another moron! the conversation was about 401k - i do not care for obama but you are just plain stupid. do you plan to mention that you are off base about the fess etc or will you just go away - glad to hear you know what a quisling is - case to go back to google and get me the history. by the way, does someone pay you to be annoying here or do you do it for kicks - or maybe you are 12 yrs old and it is fun.

[-] -3 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

i didnt have to do search to know who quisling was. I read and was taught history in school.

[-] 3 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

very good but that seems to be all you learned - must have been a private school. as you can see what i am sending you is from 1996 so there is much more to say right now - if you have your eyes open you will see really existing free market theory at work everywhere - first the 700 billion by bush and now europe! you probably don't care about the real world though - you have you fun little religious group to play with - you, alan, ayn and milton - oh sorry shes dead! Free Market Fantasies: Capitalism in the Real World Noam Chomsky Delivered at Harvard University, April 13, 1996

(transcription courtesy of William Greene) For those who are interested in the real world, a look at the actual history suggests some adjustment -- a modification of free market theory, to what we might call "really existing free market theory." That is, the one that's actually applied, not talked about.

And the principle of really existing free market theory is: free markets are fine for you, but not for me. That's, again, near a universal. So you -- whoever you may be -- you have to learn responsibility, and be subjected to market discipline, it's good for your character, it's tough love, and so on, and so forth. But me, I need the nanny State, to protect me from market discipline, so that I'll be able to rant and rave about the marvels of the free market, while I'm getting properly subsidized and defended by everyone else, through the nanny State. And also, this has to be risk-free. So I'm perfectly willing to make profits, but I don't want to take risks. If anything goes wrong, you bail me out.

So, if Third World debt gets out of control, you socialize it. It's not the problem of the banks that made the money. When the S&Ls collapse, you know, same thing. The public bails them out. When American investment firms get into trouble because the Mexican bubble bursts, you bail out Goldman Sachs. And -- the latest Mexico bail out, and on and on. I mean, there's case after case of this.

In fact of the leading -- top -- hundred leading transnationals in the Fortune list of transnationals -- there was a recent study of how they -- how they related to the States in which they- they're all somewhere, you know, so they're all mostly here -- in some National State, it turns out that all hundred of them had benefited from industrial policies, meaning, State intervention in their behalf. All hundred had benefited from the State in which they're based. And twenty of the hundred had been saved from total disaster, that is, collapse, by just State bail-out. When people talk about globalization of the economy, remember that the nanny State has to be very powerful in order to bail out the rich. And nothing is changing in that regard. Twenty out of a hundred, again, were saved from collapse by this, including a number here.

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

i went to a public school. many people think anything that occured before they were born is of no interest or importance. i do not. i also do not believe in bailouts.

[-] 2 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

the financial system was in free fall - bush and company disagree with you - just look at the fear on bernanke's face. it figures that your first thought would be about gm - typical rand devote. union my ass - boy are you a tool fo the man! there are none so blind as those who will not see

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

gm was bailed to save the unions( an obama payback) at the expense of the stockholders. the finacial system was not in a free fall. rand paul is of no interest to me, neither is his father. none so blind as those who will not see describes you perfectly.

[-] 2 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

doesn't matter what you do - shows your ignorance - the economy would have melded down with out a bailout - didn't you see the fear on their faces

[+] -4 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

there was no need to bailout gm ( it was a union bailout). no need to bailout any corporation, financial or otherwise. the economy was stronger than any corporation.

[-] 2 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

well you would not be working without one - by bush and paulson - respond to that if you can - why do both the libs and the cons support the corporations through the state when a crisis hits? i can't help but notice you never address the main point = 401k fees or really existing free market theory - good strategy on your part since you have no good answer - i commend you on your tactics!

[-] -2 points by salta (-1104) 2 years ago

you have no idea of what i do or dont do regarding work. the only way i support a corporation is in choosing to buy their product(s).

[-] 1 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

didn't you just say - "i know you are but what am i" - i knew you we a little kid! and it is ayn rand you moron - poor stockholders of gm don't we all feel sorry for those gamblers with their 401k -oh, you are making my original point - was that your plan? well it is good to know that someone (even if it is a young child) can see the future but lots of people a whole lot more connected than you were scared shitless. and if you notice both sides of our great political system were panicked but it is nice you know they over reacted - thanks! sure let gm go down along with all the suppliers etc and the let lehman and citi and aig go down - you are channeling melon you know - much easier for a rich man to say this - someone holding lots of cash to buy at bargain basement prices - are you are little boy? "Andrew Mellon was our type of economist: ...liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate farmers, liquidate real estate… it will purge the rottenness out of the system. High costs of living and high living will come down. People will work harder, live a more moral life. Values will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up from less competent people.

[-] -2 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

GM was bailed out to save thousands of jobs. Not just GM workers but the workers in the industry supplying them with parts - many small machine shops and foundry's that make the parts that they use - new and aftermarket for repair as well as electronic components - those not shipped in from china anyway..


[-] 0 points by salta (-221) 1 minute ago

gm was bailed to save the unions( an obama payback) at the expense of the stockholders. the finacial system was not in a free fall. rand paul is of no interest to me, neither is his father. none so blind as those who will not see describes you perfectly. ↥twinkle ↧stinkle permalink

[+] -5 points by HempTwisted (-28) 2 years ago

Why DKAtoday Should Be Permanently Banned From The Occupy Wall Street Forum & OWS Movement:

http://pastebin.com/n2B7ZMXy

[-] 4 points by flip (6783) 2 years ago

fire one up boy - you need it

[+] -4 points by DKAtoday (28435) from Coon Rapids, MN 2 years ago

You seriously want to inspire help? Get your members to watch these 2 documentaries and then have them share them out to everyone they know.

We do not win without public education - outreach - support.

Make it happen.

A very good documentary - a must see - along with - Inside job. I would recommend watching Inside Job 1st.

The Shock Doctrine

People if you want to understand where we are - what we need to do - why we need to do it watch these documentaries and share them with everyone you know.

Inside Job

If People want to understand OWS Occupy 99% all they need do is watch.

[+] -5 points by DKAtaday (-4) from Brooklyn Park, MN 2 years ago

[-] 0 points by DKAtoday (9870) from Coon Rapids, MN 32 minutes ago

You seriously want to inspire help? Get your members to watch these 2 documentaries and then have them share them out to everyone they know.

We do not win without public education - outreach - support.

Make it happen.

A very good documentary - a must see - along with - Inside job. I would recommend watching Inside Job 1st.

The Shock Doctrine

People if you want to understand where we are - what we need to do - why we need to do it watch these documentaries and share them with everyone you know.

Inside Job

If People want to understand OWS Occupy 99% all they need do is watch.

Then was there and when.

[+] -8 points by jamesbrownisdead (-8) 2 years ago

Maybe you should look around. Everyone is suffering. No one gets what they once had. Everyone must share in the pain.

[-] 8 points by jrhirsch (4714) from Sun City, CA 2 years ago

Pure corporate brainwashing. The only people who need to the share the pain are the ones who created it.

[-] 5 points by franknicholasb1976 (68) from Brooklyn, NY 2 years ago

The CEO and president are getting bonuses.

[-] 1 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 2 years ago

Specifically as rewards for cutting your pay and benefits down. Makes me wanna holler....

[-] 4 points by Binh (83) 2 years ago

Mitt Romney is suffering? How so?

[-] 4 points by frogmanofborneo (602) from New York, NY 2 years ago

"Everyone is suffering?" The one percent is getting over like fat rats.

[-] 4 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

We should all share the pain except those at the top like the bankers and the corporate executives right?

[-] 7 points by myows (133) 2 years ago

Isn't it funny that the pricks who caused the financial disaster got bailed out, kept their jobs and even kept their million dollar bonuses. Nobody even went to jail. Now fast forward 2 years and somehow the middle class guy with a pension and healthcare plan has been made into the bad guy! It's a disgrace.

[-] 5 points by PeterKropotkin (1050) from Oakland, CA 2 years ago

I know. It's fucking crying shame.